If a God-man is just like us, what's the point?

So what if God was one of us? That's a question Joan Osborne asked in the lyrics of her song, "One of us."

That thought came to mind after I wrote about an Indian guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, bringing in over $250 million for himself and his family through insider transactions of Religare stock.

Since the shares essentially were gifted to the guru and his sons (the 2006 purchase price was very low, about 1% of the current market value) by businessman relatives who also are disciples of Gurinder Singh, it can be argued that this is nothing unusual.

It's commonplace for people to use their influence and connections to make big money. Politicians do it. Business tycoons do it. Wall Street wheelers and dealers do it.

But this guru is considered by devotees to be God in human form. He's living and breathing in the Punjab. So to true believers he's exactly what Osborne was referring to: God as one of us.

Though I used to think this was possible -- God in human form -- here's what bothers me about this GIHF hypothesis now: if God is one of us, just like one of us, there's nothing special about God or God in human form.

I've talked about this before in What if a "guru" is no different from us?

How do we know that anyone has special expertise in some field? We can confirm that a mountain climber knows how to scale difficult peaks. We can document that a computer technician is able to get balky machines running smoothly again.

Yet where's the evidence that a guru is any different from you or me when it comes to knowing what, if anything, lies beyond the physical reality that we experience now? How could we tell that a guru is able to get one's mind/soul in good working order?

I like to visualize a "Who's the Guru?"  game show, somewhat akin to the 1950s-60s " What's My Line?" The goal would be to pick the satguru ("true guru") out of a bunch of impostors.

How could this be done? What questions would be asked? Of course, the biggest question is whether the game even is possible, since the producers of the show would have to find a genuine true guru themselves.

This isn't a fantasy game. It is being played by millions of people in every corner of the world.

Heck, make that billions if we have a expansive definition of "guru," one that includes ministers, imams, rabbis, priests, yogis, and others who claim some special knowledge of a divine aspect to reality.

Skepticism is called for.

For sure. Disciples of a guru such as Gurinder Singh love to talk about how human he is. "Wow, he kicks a soccer ball, wears blue jeans, gets angry, makes mistakes, falls sick."

Yes. That's true. So what?

Everybody can do these things. Along with making money. How does this point to a guru's divinity? Shouldn't showing every sign of being a normal human being lead to an obvious conclusion?

The guru is a normal human being.

Once someone told me a story about walking into a room where Gurinder Singh was having a meeting. The guru had been reviewing a book manuscript written by this person.

Seeing the visitor come in, he picked up the manuscript and threw it at his visitor, pages scattering over the floor. After uttering a dismissive comment about how bad the manuscript was, he went back to his meeting.

Most people would consider this a typical "bad boss" episode, a superior acting like a jerk. But the disciple who told me the story considered the guru's actions to be as perfect as a God in human form always is.

We just can't recognize the perfection when it appears as anger or some other normal human attribute.

Well, if God can't be recognized, if God acts no different from us, if it is impossible for a God-realized person to be differentiated from everyone else, what's the point of believing that someone is God in human form?

Comments

[Juliano]

Someone saying they are god-like is utter BS and should not be trusted whatsoever. A great book for seeing right through the Easter guru circus is a book called Masks of Authoritarian Power

Now this is not to say that all humans cannot experience a feeling that anciently has been likened to feeling god~like. This was originally from eating a sacred plant which often had a god name, and doing so believing you were possessed of eg, the 'god of Nature' eg Dionysos. That is very different than some mlti millioniare or common garden guru with flashing eyes makin out they are more god than you!

[Juliano]

Sorry , forgot to give you the full title of the book--it is The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power

[jon weiss]

Exactly.

And disciples NEED him to remain (in
their imaginations at any rate) God In Human Form.

It has been my experience that disciples
have little tolerance for people questioning their guru's divine status.

Your example of the guru throwing the manuscript would most likely be rationalized like this: Mr. Guru was just "challenging my ego." The rationalizations are endless. And that can be very dangerous. For example, another very well known Indian guru is now barred from the Netherlands for his behavior. I talked with one of his disciples from the Netherlands years ago. He said it was so devastating to learn of (his) guru's propensities from a dear friend who had been (one of) his victims. He added that one Indian couple had their pre-teen child complain to them about their guru touching him inappropriately. This couple did not believe their own son, and shunned him -- their own child! Why? Because they could not believe that their guru would do something like that. He was perfect. Right? When we say we no longer believe that guru has magical powers or divine status we are sacrificing our security that we are special, secretly watched and looked after, and most importantly we have a ticket to heaven after we kick the bucket. It is better to avoid, ignore or deny anything that does not back that up.

Another guru (American, Yogananda offshoot) had affairs with many of his charming lady disciples. Each one thought they were the only one. For a while anyhow. When news got out, Mr. Guru ran away (from the lawsuits). The remarkable thing is, quite in spite of his behavior and the proof of it, he still has hundreds of disciples that deny anything like that happened and that he is perfect and wonderful!!!!

[David Lane]

Brian,

when you write "by this person" was it the visitor walking in or one of your books?

Either way, the first adjective that comes to mind to describe Gurinder here is "What a D.....

[Blogger Brian]

David, the subject of the guru's displeasure wasn't me. It was someone else. And yes... you mentioned a good choice of adjectives.

[Mike Williams]

YOGANANDA and WOMEN

-------------

Yogananda Christmas message, 1933:
East West Magazine Quote:
------------------------------------------------

Hitler is to be admired for leaving the League of Nations because peace can never be attained by the victor and vanquished attitude, but on a basis of equality and brotherhood. Instead of preventing Hitler from having equal armament with other nations, the other nations should reduce the armaments to the level of Germany, then the millions of dollars that are thrown away on idle battleships could be used for national or international prosperity. America, France, and Great Britain should reduce their armaments first, and thereby destroy the desire of Japan, Russia, and Germany to become equally armed.

An insulted, snubbed Germany, if it gets away from the uplifting guidance of Hitler, may join Russia and make her a more powerful enemy of France and so on.

The Allies must reduce their own armaments first, and then they will find out that the example speaks louder than words.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

Newspaper Articles on Yogananda

------------------------------------------

Los Angeles Times, Wednesday, October 25, 1939:

SWAMI SOUGHT IN DAMAGE SUIT

Determined that he shall not become a vanishing Hindu, process servers were conducting a far-flung search yesterday for Swami Yogananda, Indian cultist accused in a sensational $500,000 damage suit, of amazing goings on with feminine followers.

Aiding in the search was the plaintiff, Nirad Ranjan Chowdbury, also known as Sir Nerode, former associate of Yogananda, who maintains a palatial abode on Mount Washington and also boasts a high class hideaway at Encinitas.

Chowdbury's charges took on a spice not generally associated with the spiritual repose of Yogism as the swami was sought by minions of the plaintiffs attorneys, Harold E. Krowech and Theodorn E. Bowen.

PREACHES HE IS GOD

After pointing out that Yogananda teaches that he is God, or Paramahansa, Chowdbury, Calcutta-born, Harvard educated student of East Indian religious philosophy, alleged that the swami has been for the past year trying to break up the marriage between the plaintiff and his wife, and that Yogananda prevented the plaintiff's wife from having proper care during the pregnancy of her child.

Moreover, Chowdbury alleges that the swami teaches that: The members of the congregation must not get married because their first love must be to God through Swami Yogananda and that if they should be married that their first loyalties are to Swami Yogananda and not to their spouse.

IRREGULAR PRACTICES
Picturing highly irregular practices in the cult quarters on Mount Washington, the plaintiff declared that the swami has young girls in the immediate vicinity of his room going in and out all hours of the night.

The younger girls are kept segregated from older women, Chowdbury charges, adding:

Young girls have free access to the rooms of said Swami Yognanda and that said Swami Yogananda forbids said young girls who attend him from going out with other men and forbids them to go out at all except with him.

At his Encinitas palace, Chowdbury charges, Yogananda maintains caves and rooms for meditation that are not in keeping with the standard of religious meditation...and that the places of mediation are too secretive and ornate of construction to be used for the purpose of spiritual mediation, all of which is contrary to spiritual practices, contrary to Hindu philosophy and contrary to the purposes and objectives of the partnership.

ROMANTIC TO MERCENARY
Changing from the romantic to the mercenary tack, Chowdbury declared that the swami has used contributions from his cultists to foster his ambitious and private ends. The plaintiff accused the swami of using the teachings of Yogoda and Hindu Philosophy for the sole purpose of creating a personalized interpretation of defendant Swami Yogananda as a divinity...so as to force upon the members of the congregation and others the interpretations that God talks only through Swami Yogananda.

Chowdbury said yesterday that while a graduate student at Harvard he met Yogananda, who then was lecturing in the East, became interested in the swami's teachings, and was made a partner with the swami in the cult only to be frozen out last January, after the long-haired cult leader had transferred his interests from the East to Los Angeles, where he is said to have attracted as followers scores of Los Angeles women and girls.

PURELY COMMERCIAL
After the freeze out, Chowdbury said he became convinced that Swami Yogananda was engaged at all times in a purely commercial venture for the purpose of his own personal gain, and that his activities had no connection with the true Hindu Self-realization philosophy.

At the cult headquarters, a crisp young woman attache reported that the swami is due back today. He lectured in San Diego Monday night, she said.

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entheogenesis Lieutenant Commander Posts: 7 (2/9/04 10:14 pm) Reply Re: Newspaper Articles on Yogananda --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Newspaper clipping from another Los Angeles newspaper.]

Wednesday, October 25th, 1939

Headline: SWAMI CALLS ACCUSER 'CHISELER'

Even the benign and almost imperturbable calm of a swami has its limits. Last night as Swami Yogananda returned here to find himself facing a $500,000 damage suit filed by Rihad Ranjan Chowdhury [Sri Nerode], who claims a partnership in this Mount Washington cult of Self Realization headed by the swami, that limit was reached.

The dirty chiseler, the swami exploded. The Hindu mystic who returned here from a lecture engagement in San Diego where he had expounded the benefits of self denial and self control, regained some of his composure and went on.

The charges made against me are scurrilous and without foundation, the result of an underhand attempt to discredit me in the eyes of my followers, he said.

Chowdhury had been driven out of the flock because he was insincere and because he violated our rules. He married a white woman, which is directly forbidden in our laws.

In his suit however, Chowdhury makes it clear he wants to dissolve the partnership because, he said, the swami isn't exactly practicing what he preaches.

He alleged that in a luxurious suite on the third floor of the Temple of Self Realization, the swami keeps himself surrounded by a bevy of likable young ladies who have free access to his boudoir at all times---but aren't allowed to go out with other men at all.

Furthermore, while his flock exists dutifully on substandard diets in line with the self denial theory---the swami dines on the most luxurious foods, he charged.

Chowdhury said sadly that he wants no more partnership with Yogananda, and wants the $500,000 as compensation for the work he has put into the movement.

A. Brigham Rose, attorney for the swami, said he would go into court today and ask to have the sensational charges stricken from the complaint.

[Dogribb]

Money hell ! I want a good old sex scandal at RSSB...lol

Some of my Initiated peers are spending their winter vacations at Dera.I just wonder how easy is it to keep your head in the sand for so so long.

Are you blocking the apologetics Brian or have they all got tired of holding the beliefs up to the light and gone blind ?

[Blogger Brian]

Dogribb, all the submitted comments get published on this blog -- except for commercial spam and some religious spam (for example, if a comment is simply a lengthy quotation from a supposedly holy scripture, or wildly off topic).

I agree: it's been quiet lately. Maybe the guru-defenders are meditating more now instead of surfing the Internet.

[Robert Searle]

Some of you may know, and remember that whenever I did a search on google for gurinder and religare I often found that my article entries on my blog on the subject would have Gurinder Singh Blog (or even Shivinder Singh Blog)after them. This seemed to suggest that GS might have given a "tacit approval" for my "positive" understanding of his "guruship." Ofcourse, it may well have been a technical error of sorts. By "coincidence" this "phenomena" (if it be one) was deleted shortly after a post about it was published here. It maybe that the website which was linking my material (and Hines blog) might be connected with Religare, or even owned by it.

Anyway, people may be interested to read on that website that Gurinder Singh has the thumbs up (at present)from over 6,000 people! I doubt whether the Religare controversy will make much of a dent to the RSSB in the long run...unless more serious "scandals" emerge.

http://connect.in.com/gurinder-singh/profile-110713.html

[Robert Searle]

Dear All,

I would be grateful if anyone knows anything about Ishwar Puri? See link....

http://markkaz.com/ishwar/

[Robert Searle]

Tara,

Ofcourse what you say could be right.Yet, there is "no way"of knowing for certain...

I suspect in a largely poor country in India (in spite of its economic growth for the few) people can sometimes have a sneaking admiration for "mega-criminals" even if one, or more of them were a leader of a "respected" sect!!! In effect, thumbs up for being a "crook", and a guru at the sametime!!!

I recall once reading about a certain guru in which he was praised by a devotee for charging more money to go to one of his meetings (at the massive "exhibition" centre in Birmingham no less)than anyone else who was famous...

[Mike Williams]

To Robert,
I looked at the Gurinder link. The 254 million $ article by Brain and also this
blog are listed on left hand side.

The complete India newspaper article and the complete Church of Churchless article
response has been copied to Radhasoami Beas
Secret History. The money situation had previously been copied also from prior articles here and Church of the Churchless
was linked. By linking Church of the Churchless, it now has moved on the first page of Google with a radhasoami word search.

Google goes bt most hit pages and by links
off them. Want to know what Radhasoami people most read on the internet, just punch radhasoami in a Google search.

[Todd]

To Robert Searle,

Hi Robert, this is way off topic, but today I got an email that I believe was intended for you. You may contact me at [email protected]

Todd

[suresh lalwani]

i just want to tell everyone dont believe what people talk just believe when you personly see with your own eyes so please dont believe this man he did not see he is just talking what he heard i think he dont know what is teh real meaning of guru who is god so dont believe him by sam.

[tAo]

suresh lalwani,

well, i "dont believe what people [like you] talk".

also, what have you "personly seen with your own eyes"?? some fool in a turban??

but regardless of what you say, i don't believe you, and you don't know what anyone else has or has not seen.

you are one of those people who is "just talking what he heard".

i think it is you who doesn't "know what is the real meaning of guru". and moreover, no man is god.

and btw, i don't believe "by sam". i also don't believe in sam... unless of course you mean the one and only Sam the Sham and the Pharoahs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHF558u6Q_8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfBj61xwVkw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8HK9aI9y6w

[Dogribb]

Stick you thumb in your ear and hear The Word

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WNrx2jq184&feature=related

[Sukhbir]

The irony of it is that I don't give so much as a shit to go to Satsang and talk about this in front of people and show them just how much BS is in all of this. And the people who do go to Satsang, don't want to and can't even hear this stuff until they are completely disillusioned.

I guess it's just meant to work out that way. Fuck 'em.

[Robert Searle]

Brian do we have to have such crude language on this site? It lowers the tone of everything.

[Sukhbir]

Sorry for the crude language Robert, I guess I was just venting :) will make sure to keep the expletives out of this.

One thing about the Radha Soami Satsang Beas path is that it promises you something, but you can never get a free trial. They tell people not to meditate, until you are initiated in case you get lost in your inner regions (laughable, but they make it sound damn scary).

So basically there is no way to test the path out. You are made to follow all of their strict protocols so that you can be eligible for initiation and that's when you are allowed to meditate. So once again, you are stuck in it before you are allowed to check out what you are getting in to.

I don't get why it's so obvious now, but why I was so blind before. Ignorance has a great role to play! I even have a initiate wanna be who is telling me I should get back into the fold. I told the guy to follow it if it pleases him, but that it doesn't ring true to me anymore.