"Jaded old men," identify yourselves!

OK, I'm demanding that you guys out yourself. No more hiding in the closet.

Paul, who left this comment today on a previous post about Radha Soami Satsang Beas, has discovered that this blog is full of "jaded old men" who have forgotten the wonder of life.

All I have to say is that I read Brian's writings as I have always found his thinking to be well thought out. I have read his books and his thinking inspired me.

Well my opinion of this blog has changed. It has become a pathetic playground for people to bash other peoples beliefs.

Feel free to assert your beliefs but I really feel it unnecessary to attack RSSB or any other organisation. Surely there are points of spirituality you could rather discuss.

You are all sounding like a bunch of jaded old men who have forgotten the wonder of life.

That too is my humble opinion......

I am saddened and disappointed.

Doubt I'll bother coming back either....

Paul, you're not going to like this, but after I read your comment I decided to do some more belief-bashing: yours. Ooh, it felt so good!

And hey, isn't it better for me to enjoy the feel of bashing a belief in the morning, than to get off on the smell of napalm? This shows that at least I'm more spiritually evolved than the ethos of "Apocalypse Now."

Here's how I replied to Paul:

Paul, you are so utterly wrong, I had to put my morning coffee down and correct you before taking another sip. I resonate much more with the wonder of life now that I've forsaken religious fantasies.

Much more. Hugely more. Wonderfully more.

You mistake bloggish conversation about the nature of spirituality, reality, and life with the Real Thing: direct experience. Words aren't reality. You have no idea of what I'm experiencing at the moment, just as I have no idea of what you are.

Yet I am pretty sure that our sense of being conscious, alive, and aware (probably using three words for the same thing) is very similar, if not exactly the same.

That is the wonder -- THAT.

The mystery of consciousness, that we are alive, right here and right now, experiencing all there is to experience. Not imagining some future state of salvation, enlightenment, or god-realization. Not entangled in dogmatic theological concepts.

Being. Here and now. Experiencing. Aware. Enthralled.

Yes, some commenters here, along with me, can get pretty intense and direct when we criticize religiosity -- including that practiced by Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

But the motive is to express and share an alternative to the spiritual deadness that each of us felt to one degree or another when we were true believers in some religious ideas.

Ideas aren't reality. Or rather, they only are part of reality. Beyond ideas is the mystery of life itself, of existence itself.

And, hey, we aren't all "jaded old men." There are young and old women here also. Who like the men, aren't jaded. Rather, filled with life and energy. Because there's nothing more exciting than living with no boundaries, having broken out of fenced-in religion.

That said, and I think I said it pretty damn well considering that I hadn't finished my coffee yet, I wanted to check and make sure there really aren't a bunch of jaded old men hanging out on this blog in their pajamas, drool dripping down their toothless lips, reading the criticisms of dogmatic religiosity on this blog and feeling -- yes! -- just a touch of life in their otherwise passionless loins, until that faint spark passes and they fall into another listless day of prowling the Internet for blog posts that make them think to themselves, "Yeah! Bash those mother-fucking religious bastards!" -- until it's time for the nursing home aide to give them their medication and send them to bed.

Switching gears...

Riding my bike this morning, not feeling jaded at all (for photographic evidence of another non-jaded ride, check out this post on my other blog), for some reason, as if I need one, I got to thinking about Jiti Khanna, who was a long-time representative of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) for western Canada and the northwest United States.

I shared an interesting story about Dr. Khanna in a "From Sant Mat to Buddhism" post. The last time I saw him was in the early 1990's, during a tour the RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh, made to Vancouver, British Columbia, where he stayed at Khanna's home.

So Dr. Khanna obviously had a lot of face time with the recently appointed guru, who took over after the guru who initiated me, Charan Singh, died. Yet shortly after meeting Gurinder Singh, Khanna stopped his involvement with RSSB and reportedly became a Buddhist.

Hmmmm. Draw your own conclusions.

Here's another Jiti Khanna anecdote.

Paul, an old friend, told me once that he was in a car with Dr. Khanna, who was doing the driving. I've never forgotten Paul's description of how Khanna steered around corners -- smoothly, mindfully, harmoniously, totally in the steering moment.

This was before Dr. Khanna apparently became an out-and-out Buddhist. Yet Paul saw his here-and-now'ness reflected in his driving, just as I saw his marvelous humbleness reflected in the story mentioned above.

My point, assuming I have one, is that Paul's assumption that forsaking spiritual dogmatism, criticizing closed-minded religiosity, and embracing what is directly experienced rather than what is conceptually expected doesn't lead to a jaded lifelessness.

Rather, it brings freshness to living. We no longer divide ourselves into "spiritual" and "physical" aspects, leaving us open to embracing reality however it appears to us, not foreclosing any possibilities or avenues of growth.

Of course, Paul will hear this as just a jaded old man talking.

Keep on believing what you want to believe, Paul. Just don't forget to live life in as lively a fashion as possible while you're still alive.

Comments

[Rain]

hey, don't leave out the jaded old women who might read here :)

[Dogribb]

I started hearing that when I was 14...lol

[Willie R.]

One curious observation that may lend credence to the "jaded old men" postulate is this: if you go to the websites of several of the so-called "Neo-Advaita" teachers who publish pictures of their satsangs and retreats, you will notice quite a lot of gray hair. Mostly male, mostly middle to upper middle aged, mostly Caucasian. And if I were to hazard a wild-assed guess, most of these people are lapsed Christians (by default, I suppose - this is the Western Hemisphere).

It is easy for outsiders, therefore, to lump the bunch of us into a group and tag us as harmless proponents of a passing fad.

I am the only jaded old man that I know that is even remotely interested in the sort of materials that are discussed in Blogger Brian's blog. I am a 61 year old, gray haired lapsed Catholic.

[Suzanne Foxton]

Here to speak for the jaded middle-aged women!

[tucson]

Paul wrote: "Feel free to assert your beliefs but I really feel it unnecessary to attack RSSB or any other organisation. Surely there are points of spirituality you could rather discuss."

--Your reading is very selective, Paul. Other "spiritual" topics are frequently discussed on this blog such as the previous topic about a neo-advaita book.

RSSB needs attacking. The guru and the organization are very wealthy as a result of people believing this phoney path is real. It gives people false hope and strengthens the illusion of duality and self. It is a waste of time, unless you like wasting time...2.5 hrs of meditation daily and countless hours in satsang, seva and robotic repetition of "holy names" and asking waitresses if there is lard in the pie crust. You like it? You can have it.

I guess that by saying the above I qualify as one of those "jaded old men" since I am approaching eligibility for social security. But since I have switched to believing in nothing but what is here right now I have found that this 'nothing' is a plenum of infinite possibility and freedom unrestricted by the fetters of dogma and conditioned relative belief.

[Catherine]

Paul, throw out a belief and in comes the believin' and the wonder babyboy!

I would say that I appreciate the good things about religions now that I am not affiliated. Wasn't that amazing- the langar at the Golden Temple? And also the one at the Dera? and the Hare Krishna temples. I haven't seen any atheists do that stuff.

[Nietzsche]

I find this place an oasis after talking to satsangis and I need it to get rid of them. My age is 45 so yes I'm old.

[Bayarearetrofit]

[I'm posting this comment on behalf of "Bayarearetrofit," who emailed me the content because of a problem with publishing the comment. -- Blogger Brian]

Hi Brian, I responded to your last RSSB post but it did not upload. Here it is.


I'm bored tonight so I thought I would see what kind of negative RSSB observations were on this site. This is the only part of the blog I look at because of my affiliation with this organization and like Brian, I know it from the inside and still go to India. I think the term "jaded old men" is a bit mild for most of the comments here. The people here are more like vituperative scorned lovers rather than jaded old men. The tone of the voices is that of fully understandable bitter disillusionment It is obvious most of us who visit this site are complete failures in terms of our experiencing the promises of RSSB. RSSB always likes to tell us it is because we don't have enough love, discipline, good karma, etc. Many of us gave it all we have and still the promised goods were not forthcoming. At first we blame ourselves, then we blame the path and the master. After all, it must be someone's fault. God's will? Who knows?

Yes, RSSB stinks with huge sums of money. Charan Singh used to say if you want to ruin a man, give him lots of money. Given this comment, it can be said unequivocally that most upper echelon RSSBers are trying to ruin themselves.

The completely ruined American RSSB billionaire probably gave the organization hundreds of millions and you can see it in the rapid growth in properties owned and developed. This billionaire flies him around in his private jet, gets special treatment while at the Dera such as being the only westerner allowed to walk behind the master at langar darshan, a room close to the master's house so he can go back and forth freely, invitations to weddings, visits to his residence in Petaluma, family members under age and not initiated allowed to come when others cannot. This is done while at the same time the party line is "all sevas are equal, and all sevadars are equal". Similar to what Orwell said in Animal Farm, some sevadars are more equal than others. I admit, it looks like the master is for sale.

On the other hand, if someone is financing the charitable works of an organization, it is reasonable for that person to be shown some gratitude.

It also looks like a family guru business and I was personally very disappointed when Charan Singh's successor was a family member. It smelled like nepotism and did in fact put huge resources under the control of the Grewal family. The real question is: Do they use these resources for self-aggrandizement or for public welfare?

Members of this blog forget that Gurinder has built numerous charitable hospitals where the public can get medical care free of charge. After the earthquake in Sri Lanka, the Dera sent thousands of sevadars and money to build schools. He even went there to supervise the operation and refused photo ops. He travles everywhere trying meeting with his disciples at great personal discomfort. His staff commented that he did not sleep under the same roof more than three days in a row for over 8 months while on tour, which is most of the time. He recently helped write and publish a book on misogynous practices in India, such as physical and emotional abuse, enslavement, etc. The book is called something like "Rise up Women" and is meant to provide abused women resources to get out of abusive relationships.

A very important fact that needs to be noted is that numerous letters from Sawan Singh exist that were never redacted by the RSSB organization and they talk about the bell sound, the inner master, seeing the light, and provide answers to questions that were posed regarding inner region travel, etc.

I have a copy of these letters that were circulated in binders amongst the early disciples in the thirties and forties. According to the publication's staff, the Dera does not have many of these letters so it was not possible for them to have been redacted by RSSB. Some of the letters are in Spiritual Gems and they are identical except to those in this binder. Out of this I think we can assume even the RSSB published letters in Spiritual Gems were not redacted. The only difference between these letters and those in Spiritual Gems is that the people refered to in the binder letters are named.

If there are disciples who have had inner experiences, i.e. were delivered the goods as promised, doesn't that means the system is valid and can and does deliver the goods? If we never got the goods, we can blame ourselves or the path, or even our genes if we want to, but in light of these validated experiences of the early disciples, one cannot say it is because the system is a fraud.

What say ye TAO? I like to hear what you have to day when I am not deafened by your vituperatives.

[jon weiss]

Hi BAR:

"Vituperative scorned lovers"? I am sure there are more than a few of those around. Very funny. Suspect it is probably more complex than a fist full of scorned darshan hounds kicking the dirt.

You refer to a "tone of voice? Did I miss an audio feature to this site? That'd be wonderful if there was an audio feature!!

Why do you believe that "most of us" are complete failures at experiencing the promises? It is better, I think, to speak for oneself. State, for example, why you are here posting and if YOU resent something about the situation -- such as not getting invited to a wedding where the guru was expected while the Food Bros were invited and got to hang out with him? I heard there is an "A" list. AND it is hard to get on the "A" list. One's nose must turn from lily white to absolute brown...in addition one must be totally fluent in sycophant-eese. One can't be a klutz....either...a slip of the tongue and down you go to the "z" list. Then you are shunned for sure. No more flying around or sharing jokes with Gugu. That'd be enough to make an ordinary disciple sweat.

Petaluma billionaire? That could only be one of 2 guys --or families. And one I am sure is not a billionaire. Maybe the other guy is though. Hummm, well if you want to be a billionaire usually you gotta sell something other than vegetarian food (err....REAL health food advocates would hesitate to call it "food", it is too salty, too oily, too over-processed, health-reducing, expensive, frozen-organic junk food. Or in the other guy's case, dried soup in a paper cup that always gave me the farts.....food for entertainment rather than HEALTH. Enough to make Ann Wigmore turn in her grave or give Charlotte Gerson nightmares. Yet and still it is better than murdering steers and Petaluma chickens).

Well anyhow.... So the Petaluma Food Bros, hummm...."funding the charitable works" Charitable? Charity to whom? Did they open a soup kitchen or charitable mission in downtown SF to help AIDS victims or abused children? Oh, no. They built charitable barns. That sit empty. Most of the time.

I would like to imagine that a guru might "show his gratitude" in less mundane ways than what you describe....like taking the food bros to Sach Khand for lunch or something.

The financial assets? How much money is there$$$$ Unfortunately there appears to be little access to complete information. Therefore how does one ascertain what percent of donations went or go toward humanitarian efforts???? Do you know?

The book is called "Empowering Women" and is not available in the United States. Guess he feels Western Women are empowered enough? (laugh)

Unlike Brian (no disrespect intended), the infamous David Lane had/has inner experiences. Lane has stated on his Radhasoamistudies Yahoo Group/site, that he believes the RSSB technique works. He did not (if I understood him properly) necessarily agree with RSSB about what causes these experiences, and/or the religious meaning generally ascribed to inner experiences...or what "goods" are actually delivered. Are they neurological goods or "spiritual" (trans-corporal) goods?

About traveling. You know what makes regular non-inner travel a bummer? (1) the cost (2) the planning (3) sitting in coach rather than business (4)getting your luggage and arranging to get a cab, or renting a car, and getting to the appropriate place, etc. etc. Travel is not nearly so much a bummer when you have LOTS of money, and a staff or sevadars that literally worship you and take care of all the details and make sure you have only the best of everything. I HAVE heard, on the other hand, that from time to time he has had some pretty radical physical issues to deal with that made travel very painful. He did it anyhow. So that is something, imo. Also he may have been detained from reaching Spain because of the volcano just like many others.

Jon

[tAo]

Bayarearetrofit comments:

"Brian, I responded to your last RSSB post but it did not upload."

-- that's probably because you took too long a time writing your comment. there is a time limit. so the solution is: before you click "Post", simply copy your comment onto a notepad, then go back and refresh your browser, then paste your comment back into the comment box, and then click the "Post" button. quite simple actually.

"The people here are more like vituperative scorned lovers rather than jaded old men. The tone of the voices is that of fully understandable bitter disillusionment It is obvious most of us who visit this site are complete failures in terms of our experiencing the promises of RSSB."

-- uhh, not so fast. first (speaking only for myself), i am not any so-called "scorned lover". because i was never a (RS master) "lover" in the first place. i had no "love" for charan singh. i also had no "love" for RSSB. and charan and RSSB sure as hell had no "love" for me. RS had no concern for me whatsoever. but also, charan and RS never rejected (scorned) me, nor did i "scorn" or reject RS. so in my case, you are wrong from every angle.

i dropped sant mat for some other very different reasons. so therefore, you should not lump everyone all together. people have all sorts of different reasons for quiting sant mat and RS. the fact that you say and imply that everyone is all the same, and that most people here are "bitter" and are "failures" in RS... well, that is just ignorant, narrow-minded, and downright incorrect.

"it is because we don't have enough love, discipline, good karma, etc. Many of us gave it all we have and still the promised goods were not forthcoming."

-- speak only for yourself. because that assertion does not apply to me. my meditations were productive. i dropped sant mat for other very different reasons.

"At first we blame ourselves, then we blame the path and the master."

-- in my case... you are wrong again. i have not "blamed" anyone. my criticisms of RS and its current guru has nothing to do with "blame".

"Charan Singh used to say if you want to ruin a man, give him lots of money."

-- i don't agree with that at all. money is not the problem. the problem is in people, not money. so imo, charan was wrong.

"it can be said unequivocally that most upper echelon RSSBers are trying to ruin themselves."

-- i don't think so. i think its clearly a matter of hypocrisy and materialism and desire for more and more money... far beyond what they need. so that shows that sant mat and meditation is not working in their cases.

"American RSSB billionaire probably gave the organization hundreds of millions and you can see it in the rapid growth in properties owned and developed. This billionaire flies him around in his private jet, gets special treatment while at the Dera........" etc etc etc.

-- nothing very surprising there. thats just how it is when a spiritual cult and its guru/master is corrupt and fraudulent.

It also looks like a family guru business and I was personally very disappointed when Charan Singh's successor was a family member. It smelled like nepotism and did in fact put huge resources under the control of the Grewal family. The real question is: Do they use these resources for self-aggrandizement or for public welfare?

"Gurinder has built numerous charitable hospitals where the public can get medical care free of charge."

-- not true.

"After the earthquake in Sri Lanka, the Dera sent thousands of sevadars and money to build schools."

-- earthquake? do you mean the tsunami??

"He travles everywhere trying meeting with his disciples at great personal discomfort. His staff commented that he did not sleep under the same roof more than three days in a row for over 8 months while on tour, which is most of the time."

-- big friggin deal. he has no real "personal discomfort". thats absolute bullshit. i used to go on long tours back when i was in the rock music business. its not all that bad... and especially not bad for some guru who is regarded as a "god in human form".

"He recently helped write and publish a book on misogynous practices in India, such as physical and emotional abuse, enslavement, etc. The book is called something like "Rise up Women" and is meant to provide abused women resources to get out of abusive relationships."

-- so what. who cares. that is irrelevent. that has nothing to do with him as being a supposed mystic sant sat guru and god-incarnate. writing childrens books does not excuse lies and corruption.

"numerous letters from Sawan Singh exist that were never redacted by the RSSB organization and they talk about the bell sound, the inner master, seeing the light, and provide answers to questions that were posed regarding inner region travel, etc."

-- so what? come on... as if mere statements contained in letters actually prove something?? get real.

"If there are disciples who have had inner experiences, i.e. were delivered the goods as promised, doesn't that means the system is valid and can and does deliver the goods?"

-- simply, no. experiences (and claims of experiences) prove nothing. i myself have had many experiences. but it proves not a thing. mere experiences are not "the goods". it seems that you don't understand the issues here. you think that just having some intangible experiences in mediation, that that somehow proves and validates sant mat and the guru? wrong. you had better think again.

"If we never got the goods, we can blame ourselves or the path, or even our genes if we want to, but in light of these validated experiences of the early disciples, one cannot say it is because the system is a fraud."

-- that is incorrect. first, i have had many experiences, but no one has the "goods" claimed by RS. second, mere experiences are not "the goods". third, those "early disciples" experiences have not been "validated", and they can never be validated. forth, "the system" (the religion and guru-cult of RS) must be a fraud because the guru is clearly not what he is claimed to be, the meditation has not produced any known or proven liberated souls, and the vows and lifestyle is misleading and wasting peoples lives and making them physically and/or mentally ill... not to mention having suckered many satsangis out of their hard-earned money.

"What say ye TAO?"

-- the name is tAo, not "TAO". and my comments (above) are straigtforward.

"I like to hear what you have to day when I am not deafened by your vituperatives."

-- vituperative?? my coments have been neither scurrilous, nor truculent, nor vitriolic, nor abusive. and personal insults and attacks (like yours) are frowned upon here. not to mention that the over-all facts have been overwhemingly on the critic's side of the debate. so if you are going to defend RS and its current bogus spiritual leader, you are going to have to come up with something much more substantial.

and btw, next time, try to be a big girl and post your own comment(s). you shouldn't require Brian to hold your apparently weak little hand.

[tAo]

jon weiss,

i absolutely loved your comment. it was witty, humourous, and on-target. you said it much better than i ever could. much appreciation and thanks for putting it all in proper perspective.

[tucson]

Bayarearetrofit wrote the following three paragraphs:

"numerous letters from Sawan Singh exist that were never redacted by the RSSB organization and they talk about the bell sound, the inner master, seeing the light, and provide answers to questions that were posed regarding inner region travel, etc."

"If there are disciples who have had inner experiences, i.e. were delivered the goods as promised, doesn't that means the system is valid and can and does deliver the goods?"

"If we never got the goods, we can blame ourselves or the path, or even our genes if we want to, but in light of these validated experiences of the early disciples, one cannot say it is because the system is a fraud."

--Gurinder Singh has said that the inner regions do not actually exist and are merely symbolic of states of consciousness.
So, whatever inner regions these people experienced were not real according to the current God in Human Form. Maybe the next GIHF will decide they are real again?

I don't know if Bayarearetrofit groups me with the "vituperative scorned lovers" talking about their bitter disillusionment with sant mat. As I have said here before Sant Mat just no longer made sense or applied to me. It just sloughed off like an old skin a long time ago. My anti-RSSB attitude and commentary these days stems from my opinion that the RSSB gurus are frauds and should be exposed as such.

[jon weiss]

Thank you TAo.

your comment below brings up an important perspective:

"simply, no. experiences (and claims of experiences) prove nothing. i myself have had many experiences. but it proves not a thing. mere experiences are not "the goods"."

I have heard disciples remark that these (allegedly) validating inner-experiences lay in wait just behind their personal accumulation of karma. The trouble is disciple's are stranded -- waiting for the alleged accumulation to supposedly burn off. So there is an assumption that (1) there is such a thing as karma (2) there is such a thing as an individual soul with personal karma (3) that that their individual soul will continue on after death and be reborn if the karma is still there. Yicks. And that is just the beginning of a huge pile of religious assumptions.

[Robert Searle]

Maybe it is just me but what happened to the article on Gurinders astrological chart by someone called Katherine?

[Brian Hines]

Robert, you can search this blog using the Google search box in the right column. I do it all the time myself. That December 3, 2008 post is here:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2008/12/post.html

[Catherine]

Tara, it's always good to read your informed comment.

[Robert Searle]

Thank you Brian!I did look in the search box but they do not always work well!!

However, I am still mystified why my two part entry on Religare, Gurinder, and Beas Satsang has Gurinder Singh Blog after them. The following google search link should hopefully work if you do not believe me! The reason maybe somekind of computer matching..but I do not know ....odd!

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=religare+gurinder&aq=f&aqi=g2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

[dman]

Hi all,
Getting back to the blog after a long time...Just finished watching the documentary "Through the wormhole" episode 1, where the existence of God is questioned. I was particularly intrigued by an exeriment conducted by this neuro-scientist, on a volunteer. Once this volunteer relaxed, and the brain waves settled down, he induced a concentrated magnetic field on the right hemisphere of the brain (according to him activity in this part induces the 'self conscious experience'...The volunteer said she experienced presence of other beings and stuff...80% of the test subjects experienced it in some form or other.
I was amazed. The bells and whistles that are promised via meditation in RSSB philosophy can be induced externally, this means that there is not a single bit of truth in going to Sachkhand and all...Its all in the brain.
If science can explain the 'God feeling' then I don't think there's any mystery to be solved that needs a God sent messenger.
And btw, I'm just a young 20+ bloke, not some "Jaded old man".

[Mike Williams]

Hi dman,

There was a fellow named Persinger whom
invented Persinger's helmet. Punch in
persinger god helmet into your Google
search and read many articles.

He has succeeded in recreating most
inner experiences.

Also, punch in tinitus. British Scientists
have discovered the sources of the inner
sounds, which exactly match Radhasoami.

[Mike Williams]

Whoops, I see you were refering to Persinger.

That's funny, I first wrote about him in my
book 9 years ago. Didn't know he had become
popular now.

There are many groups that use energy
techiques. From kundalini shaktipat to pranahuti to Chinese, etc.

Chastity for instance is a big part of
surat shabda yoga.

Why ?

The sound is kundalini. As you listen to the
various sounds, you stimulate the various chakras. They are enlivened. Chastity creates Ojas, which moves up the spine.

Yogananda people are much more advanced
in surat shabda theory than Radhasoamis.
They have seven initiations, four with SRF proper group, where Radhasoami only uses the first technique, which you all know.

But, one of my several initiations from Radhasoami based Gurus was Prof. Dr.
Agam Mathur, of Peepal Mandi Group.

This was an Agra based group that still
uses the original initiation of Salig Ram,
founder of the Radhasoami faith.

I was taught the chakras on the top of the
head and the various sights and sounds
of each charkra.

Now days, Beas based Gurus skip all this
to do with chakras.

They make an effort to stay away from kundalini teachings and some even say
you begin from the eye chakra and go up.

Beas based groups have screwed up
everything, because their Gurus were never
properly taught.

Yogananda people are taught the very complex
system of the theory. A`Yogananda disciple
could blow away any Radhasoami in a discussion. They also go to Sat Lok, see the sights and sounds and radiant form.

Of course, there is no such thing as chakras
and kundalini. But, shouldn't people be taught by competent Gurus if they believe
in these things ?

Radhasoami Gurus are babes in the woods
when it comes to surat shabda yoga. Maybe
that's why they only give first initiation.

Please don't ask me what the higher initiations are. They literally swear a person to secrecy.

But, what is happenning is people are
storing and creating energy in their bodies.
They then turn this energy excess up to the brain. Or, the higher heart centre, as the shushumna bends down from the top of the head, back down towards the right side of the heart.

The Chinese are best at this. Mantak Chia
has written many books on energy transformation from organ to organ.

Don't get involved with these things.

Unless you want to create self induced
schizophrenia.

What people do is send this enery to the left side of the brain. A person can experience a Self, other beings, sounds,
out of body, God.

But, now Persinger can reproduce all these things.

I have tested many various sound and light
and electrical devices. None of them worked.

So, Persinger has a first in his helmet.

No doubt they will go on sale at Walmart
some day.

The Church of this new generation.

And of course will be manufactured in China.

[dman]

Mike Williams,
Yes, Persinger it is (thanks for that!), but it was mentioned in the episode as one of the few theories that exist regarding the God Experience...there was also a programmer's perspective, they claimed that if we can simulate virtual worlds with the limited computing power we have today, for example in games, and if we are able to fit everything into an equation or an algorithm (the unified theory), its possible with immense computing power that our universe might be simulated, perhaps someone's doing it now.
And I always used to believe that if lets say I follow the RSSB practice ( or any other for that matter) and travel to higher astral regions, maybe there is an answer to how everything exists, and possibly, an explanation of our Standard Model etc. But if its just sights and sounds that can be induced externally, then I don't think there's any 'increase in knowledge' as such for a practitioner.
But do you think these experiences can be induced through meditation and all? I mean if we take a large enough sample size, its possible some of them will be able to excite these centres in their brain with some relaxation technique. That doesn't establish a causal relationship between the technique and the experiences.

[Mike Williams]

Hi dman, You asked
"But do you think these experiences can be induced through meditation and all?"

Yes, definitely. You people are all
familiar with kundalini, which the Chinese
call Chi. The Zen use koans to excite
unused portions of the brain. Even Ramana
Maharshi said the jnani has fully opened
his kundalini from the top down, even if
he does not know it. Pranahuti pours down
he claimed, an enegy which cannot be felt.

But, the fact is, kundalini and chakras
and inner planes and gods on those planes,
do not exist.

It is very possible our universe is inside
a giant computer. An artificial creation.

Lets face it, even if there is a God and
he created this universe, it is still
artificial.

But, logic says our world is out of control.
Killing and death.

So, whatever is performing the experiment
of our universe seems to be sadistic, or has lost sight of us, or died after it
created us.

The big question is why any intelligent
beings would create our universe.

It seems to be happening by itself.

So, logic is in a quandry.

Hi Roger,

The mythical self (WHO) is thought that
believes it has a persona. The self does not
perceive, the self is erroneous thought. The brain perceives.

Mother Teresa said, "if God is not,
Jesus cannot be." They are calling her
the atheist saint. But, so far the Catholoic Church has not made her
a saint due to her atheism.

Napoleon also was atheist. he said,
"If you give a savage a watch, he believes
it has a soul."

[dman]

Hi Mike,
Well, a good simulation means we sort of let it happen..almost like an ant colony. So the control is in our hands I feel. If we choose to wipe ourselves out, its our decisions unfortunately...but thats just speculation. Its possible there are many worlds out there, its highly unlikely there arent, just by considering the sheer numbers of stars.
Thanks for the insight!

[Jayme]

Mike Williams and dman,

I don't think Persinger ever personally experienced the effects claimed by the God Helmet (originally developed by Stanley Koren). From what I gather, the helmet seems to produce "an experience" on about 1% to 2% of the people who try it, depending on the brain's sensitivity to pulsed magnetic fields. I like the theory and don't have any reason to doubt the research, but it hasn't worked for me.

Simple meditation has been experientially more satisfying.

Brian (Paul),

You left out the middle aged group. I'm not drooling yet and sometimes am a little jaded from working a long day in a 9-5 job but I must say, the sky and clouds draping over the mountains are simply gorgeous and getting moreso as I get to be old.