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September 02, 2010

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Tara,

I have heard the story of the sage who meditated in the mountains and then fell prey to lust in an hallucination of a woman, and last month the same story was repeated in a satsang by a speaker who also gave the cause that the sage was not initiated by a True Master.

Moongoes wrote: ".Generaly i don't eat eggs but i will not use glasses to find their traces."

--There. That's it. A healthy attitude. You prefer not to eat something but you aren't a fanatic about it.

I don't like mushrooms, but if there are a few pieces of mushrooms in something I don't worry about it and eat it anyway. No big deal. I just ignore them.

Satsangis have to make sure that no traces of forbidden items are in their food. Is there lard in the pie crust? Is there lard in the refried beans? Is the sandwich made with mayonnaise? Are there eggs in the muffins? Is there rennet in the cheese? It's really a drag to have to be that way and rather neurotic. It cuts you off from a whole sphere of social contact. Oh well, they're just a bunch of clueless, worldly manmukhs anyway whose influence will just pull you down into impure thoughts pertaining to the realm of Kal. Right?

This proofs the point that fanatics are in their essence weak people that want to appear strong.

If You r a non believer or ignorant,,,, why are you speaking bad things for Radha Soami... For all I know, you are an extremist just trying to put bad name in some good faith .... You think you are a big philosopher,,, but you are not... You are just SICK n you need to be treated....

I once had a book by a guru of RSSB, charan Singh and there was a whole load in there in a Q&A about Jesus and meat eating, where he basically said that the fact the Gospels say that Jesus ate fish must be a mistranslation or something!

And Ramakrishna, the Indian saint of Bengal, said that if a man loved God and ate meat that they were better off than someone who was vegetarian without love for God. He was basically a Vaishnava too.

For monastics, a vegetarian diet is a good idea because it helps with celibacy. For householders, it is not a very good idea. And if a householder is married and has sex to boot, it is considered lawful to indulge in sex every now and again. It seems that the gurus of RSSB are prescribing monastic requirements for householders.

This is an important point. In the Catholic church, which i was brought up in, prayer consists of reciting some other written prayer and generally being ethical in conduct, while at the same time you can eat whatever you want, have sex, do most "normal" things that people do. But if you want to experience God you have to become a monk or a nun, and essentically this means a life of renunciation, hardship, denial of the senses, prayer and meditation for long periods, celibacy and fasting etc. And there is a good reason for this.

It seems to me that RSSB is supposed to be a kind of monasticism for householders! That simply doesn't work.

I read that the reason why the human brain evolved into what we are today is because our ancestors ate meat.

Being vegetarian, aside from the moral implications of killing other animals, is simply a tool for potential health reasons which aid calmness which is good for meditation. You don't want digestion working the heart to get more blood flowing throughout the body when you are sitting trying to focus on God. Then again, you could achieve the same calmness by exercising regularly and this would be much more potent than simply abstaining from meat eating.

Then we come to the moral arguments for vegetarianism. To my mind, although this issue is tricky it is a simple fact nonetheless that the simple act of automatic breathing or respiration is an act of murder in and of itself, and that practically speaking you cannot base any karmic theory on the idea that eating animal flesh is therefore a sin which will have a comeuppence. For starters, in some of the HIndu gurus i have read, animals don't even have karma. So how can eating an animal, which has no karma and therefore isn't responsible or self-aware, produce sin for a human? It cannot be based on the theory that animals have souls, since Vedanta also teaches that consciousness is in the most primitive amoeba as well as inanimate matter like rocks, and therefore if you kill an amoeba you are causing a karmic sin.

Jains wear masks and sweep the ground after them to stop karmic comeuppance. And this is despite the fact that Buddha didn't do these things. And irony of ironies, didn't Buddha eat meat which he died from?

The only reason i can see why vegetarinism is valid is the moral one - that killing higher life forms is bad because they are kindred to humans, they have rudimentary consciousness, and when you have pets you know all about this. It has nothing to do with some apparent karmic retribution if you eat flesh because karma itself is inscrutable, it isn't just a cause and effect doctrine, it is a mystery.

Then again, once the animal is butchered, cut up and placed in nice little packages that you can buy at the supermarket, are you the one responsible for murdering that animal simply because you pay for the package, and now that the animal is already dead and the meat layed out for you in the nice package, it is dead already so why not eat it?

It's good to write stuff down and get it out of your system. I wasn't expecting to be thanked for my mental ramblings. But one of the beauties of the internet is that it allows you to write what is on your mind and in this way it is almost theraputic. Certainly where it comes to issues like gurus and religions you have to be careful with what you are dealing with and so websites like Brian's are a good haven for getting stuff off your chest and checking in with like minded people who share things in common.

What i personally need in my life is a fit and good looking woman who could stay perpetually young and buxom with a wealth of knowledge un-dreamed of. I realise this is a fantasy that cannot come true in this lifetime but men were created to dream. :)

Actually i have a girlfriend, it is a long distance internet affair for the most part; we have met before but being so far away (she is in India, i am in england) the kind of quality a relationship demands is just not being fulfilled this way. She is my soul mate, which i base on many occurances that are inexplicable in mundane terms, but physically i haven't risen above my carnal desires because i don't find her greatly attractive. It is a hard one, indeed. How do you motivate yourself to continue to love someone you feel very little physical attraction to, esp as the years go by?

My path in life has been singular, to say the least. I got fed up with catholic dogma and stopped going to church when i was 12. Not hard to see through that bullshit. Of course, like most people, i continued to have feelings for Jesus as it is hard not to like a guy like him (unless you come from the point of view that he taught hell fire, which i don't). When i was 19 i "accidentally" discovered Autobiography of a Yogi and it literally changed my life. It's hard for people to understand this kind of thing because we all judge from our own perspectives, many people get nothing from the book but as i said, it changed my life.

Yogananda was quite extraordinary and i am certain that yoga as we know it these days is due in large part to him. Most people go to a hatha yoga class and do the physical exercises but these kinds of yoga teachers actually, probably most of them without knowing it, borrow from the older yoga philosophies, and the first Yoga teacher to bring yoga out of India and implant it in the west was Yogananda although Vivekananda came before him but Vivekananda's influence wasn't as big in America. Autobiography of a Yogi is a book you can find in most book stores in the biography section these days - what a phenomena! I wonder, i do wonder, how many people in the world owe their spiritual thinking and subsequent practice of yoga to reading this book.

Yogananda's guru even had some influences from the RSSB gurus in that there is an emphasis on sound and light in the teachings. And then there was that cult of premies, who taught techniques to see and hear light, which is independent of RSSB i think. A shame that the guru of that movement was such a douchebag, as most of them are.

I am like Brian - many years of meditation and not much to show for it. But i have some other experiences outside of meditation that prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that this world is much more strange than we give it credit for. Let me give just one example of what i mean: raining frogs and fish. This phenomena has been documented and has occurred in many places on the planet at different times. There is supposed to be a natural explanation for this occurance but most skeptics steer well clear of it because the obvious blatant fact of it happening is intensely antagonistic to their worldview.

I'm sure almost everybody has heard of something, read something and experienced something that made them think twice about the the accepted norms of life. Probably most people have had a deja vu experience in their life, but hindsight removes the special quality of this experience from memory and skeptical analyses of it condemn it to a region of probabilities impersonally divorced from the happening completely.

I see this blog in a different light perhaps to what most of the people that post here see it in. First of all, although i have had an interest in RSSB literature for some years now, after i bought a used book by Charan Singh, i have never affiliated myself with this cult in any way. So i am not coming to this blog from an anti-RSSB stance even though i appreciate what i have read here. And secondly, i am not an atheist or a skeptic, although i am intimately familiar with them and all their arguments. I don't think Brian is an inherently bad person with an agenda or anything. Far from it. To me, he is a seeker. He is seeking answers, and they haven't come to him in his life so far in terms of some guru delivering spiritual experiences to him. But that is ok really. What exasperates me especially about you Brian, is that you have spent over 40 years meditating regularly and, forgive me if i am wrong, you have literally had no particularly strong spiritual experience from doing it. Now, that is what i would call a wasted life. It would have been better for you if you had done what everybody else does - drink, take more drugs, eat whatever you want, do whatever you want, and be happy about it all. But to your merit you have been meditating and eating healthily even though these things have brought you less than the effort you put into doing them. And it is good to look to science and skepticism for answers. But (you knew that "but" was coming) i can't help but feel as though people like you, and me, are probably doing something wrong somehow. Have you ever wondered why primitive people or less intelligent people seem to have wonderful spiritual experiences and yet you seem to have very little? I bet you have. And probably many times. But something is making me want to say to you, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Personally, i find the atheist arguments shallow and false, since they mostly rely on religious dogmas that any intelligent person read in the literature can debunk immediately. I also find the skeptic arguments lacking since they often appear dogmatic and aren't at all aquainted with the facts of any particular case. I don't know why, but many people fall for these shallow arguments, especially young people. The preponderance of them on the internet doesn't make them true. If you are going to be skeptical, be skeptical of your very own existence, if you want to take it to that level.

David R, I'm curious: what do you think is the difference between a "spiritual experience" and an "experience"?

You say that I haven't had "spiritual" experiences. I don't know what you mean. In meditation, and out of meditation, I've had all sorts of experiences.

Many have been deeply meaningful, satisfying, pleasurable, wonder-filled. How is it possible to tell which are "spiritual" and which are "not-spiritual"?

And does it matter? Aren't you really simply saying that different people have different experiences. I know people who travel all around the world. I haven't been to the places they have, but I've been to other places that they haven't.

You seem to imply that I, or others, should have had experiences that I haven't had, but others have. Well, seemingly it'd be equally valid to say that you, or others, should have had the experiences I've had.

I don't believe that anyone can live anything other than his/her own life. Nor should they want to. We all have our own experiences. I've stopped classifying them into "spiritual" and "non-spiritual," because I have no idea what "spiritual" means anymore.

Do you?

Answer the following question with a yes or a no

Have you ever seen inner light and heard inner sounds as stipulated in their specificity by any or all of the RSSB gurus?

If your answer to this question is "no", that is what i mean by a spiritual experience you have not had.

If your answer is "yes", then you should be more honest and more open minded towards phenomena that are considered extraordinary and not mundane, instead of appearing all the time to be a complete skeptic and atheist about those things.

That is a simple way of putting it.

By the way, if you don't know what the word spiritual means what does it mean to ask me to explain to you what it means? If the definition of the word is not enough so much so that you have some kind of understanding of what it means but prefer to say that you don't actually know what it means, it is going to make absolutely no difference if you ask me to define it in my own way since it seems you have already made up your mind about what it is. But i will give you the benefit of the doubt in this instance by saying that in this context "spiritual" means hearing specific inner sounds and seeing specific inner sights as the Beas gurus have specifically written about. From here, it is a simple matter for you to tell the world whether or not you have experienced those "spiritual" things and then i think the rest of the world can make up its mind what to believe based on what you say as opposed to what you actually say.

David R, you've made yourself clear: you believe that "spiritual" is what one particular religious organization means by that term, not something universal, objectively true, or scientifically demonstrable.

That's fine.

Just keep in mind that, as I noted before, everyone has individual experiences which they are justified in calling "spiritual." Do you really believe that only you, and a few million people in the world who think like you, have a monopoly on spirituality?

Consider...

-- A Christian could say, "David, unless you have experienced the loving presence of Jesus, who died for our sins, you have no idea what spirituality is all about."

-- A Buddhist could say, "David, unless you have experienced the emptiness of all existence, which entails the realization of no-self, you have no idea what spirituality is all about."

-- A Taoist Tai Chi practitioner could say, "David, unless you have experienced the chi/qi energy flowing freely through the subtle channels in your body, you have no idea what spirituality is all about."

-- A Muslim could say, "David, unless you have prostrated yourself before Allah and embraced the timeless truths of the Holy Koran in Arabic, you have no idea what spirituality is all about."

-- A pagan, pantheistic nature worshipper could say, "David, unless you have looked at a babbling brook, or an ancient old growth tree, and felt the oneness of you and all of nature, you have no idea what spirituality is all about."

-- A scientist could say, "David, unless you have experienced the cosmos through the clear eyes of factual reality, knowing your place in an unimaginably vast, complex, mysterious universe, you have no idea what spirituality is all about."

I'm familiar with spiritual dogmatism. Been there, done that.

You're entitled to consider that only your outlook on "spiritual" is correct, and all others are wrong, but you have no basis for being so confident that you, and only you, know what ultimate truth is.

And you have no basis for assuming that someone who hasn't had the same "spiritual" experiences that someone else supposedly has had, is somehow deficient or lacking in a sense of what life is all about. That's ridiculous. You should get out more and learn how many diverse ways there are to live life happily and meaningfully.

Brian, oh but you are wrong. For the sun is just as much a part of your reality as it is to me, and that is not "spiritual" any more than the inner sounds and inner lights are "spiritual". Hence i will ask you one more time: did you experience the inner sounds and lights as described by those gurus in all the specificity? If your answer is no, there is nothing more that i need to say. EVerybody else can make up their own mind about that.

Dear Brian,

I also endorse your just offered opinion.

But I do, further, think that "Richard Lionel Rupert Asquith Worcester" is not a real name (as mine is), but that this is just another made-up disguise for some coward to hide behind.

By their acts/words they are known.

Robert Paul Howard

I endorse the two endorsements recently made by Robert Paul Howard on this blog. One here and one in a different thread.

I have, upon a few occasions, experienced inner sound and light a la RSSB and others. Impressive, but ultimately no big deal in my case. I'm the same shmuck (walrus) I always was. And so are you.

I do think David R's comments above on vegetarianism are pretty good. I would say, however, that if you buy the packaged meat you are involved in the killing because if no one bought the meat the animals would not be killed.

I was a vegetarian for decades but I found out that my ancestors' genetics put me in a bind. I am healthier, by far, eating meat. There is a synergy in animal protein assimilation that is not available in the vegetable kingdom for humans, imo. I would prefer to be veg but I prefer health more.

I once calculated that my maximum physical output in terms of strength, speed and endurance was about 10% greater when eating a meat, eggs, vegetable, fruit, nut, seed diet than on a veg diet that included grain, beans, tofu and dairy products.

That was more meaningful when I was participating in vigorous sports, but nowadays it still translates into speedier manipulation of the remote control and rising out of the recliner to get to the bathroom.

By the way, I suggest that a good investment is in the stock of companies that make gluten-free products. It has taken decades for it to become mainstream knowledge, much like cigarettes, that gluten is bad for you. Don't fear the meat, fear the wheat!

David R, you didn't directly answer my question: do you believe there is only one form of genuine spirituality -- that which supposedly involves contact with some sort of divine sound and light?

You keep asking me if I've experienced "inner" sounds and lights, as if this is some sort of really important touchstone for something or other. I have no idea why you're so interested in what I've experienced.

But since you are, I'll ask you a couple of questions which I assume you'll have no problem answering, given your interest in discussing this subject.

(1) Have YOU ever seen inner light and heard inner sounds as stipulated in their specificity by any or all of the RSSB gurus? If so, please describe those inner lights and sounds that you've experienced and describe what they meant to you, what you've learned from them, and how they've changed your outlook on life.

(2) Have you asked this question of other RSSB initiates? What answers have you gotten?

(3) Have you asked the current guru of RSSB, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, if he's ever had the inner experiences of sound and light that you're interested in? If so, what was his answer?

(My guess: you won't get an answer out of him, just as his guru, Charan Singh, never spoke about his own inner experiences. Which means, knowing whether someone says they've had an experience of inner sound and light isn't important in the RSSB/Sant Mat teachings, since gurus don't describe their own experiences.)

(4) What if I told you that I've had some marvelous experiences of divine sound and light? What if I told you that I've never had any experience of divine sound and light? Could you tell which answer was really true? What difference would it make to you if you got one answer or the other?

Lastly... you seem to be after an answer to something that you're either afraid to ask about directly, or are incapable of asking about directly. Why this interest in what I've experienced, and not experienced, in my life?

Again, do you believe that everybody should have a certain experience, or they haven't really lived? Hard for me to imagine that you do, but maybe I'm wrong. Read the tagline on this blog: "preaching the gospel of spiritual independence."

If you aren't finding me receptive to a particular brand of dogmatism, don't be surprised. I don't believe that the word "spiritual" has much, if any, meaning. And if it does, what is "spiritual" is an individual decision. If you disagree, I'd be interested in learning why you believe in some sort of objective spiritual truth.

Brian, i asked you the question and you are asking me questions. I'm not particularly interested in discussing what the word spiritual means. I tried to ask you a simple question and you haven't been able to answer it. You can try again. Otherwise there is no need to continue this.

Thanks for your non-answer, David. You've made clear where you're coming from.

I've had lots of experiences during my forty-three years of daily meditation. I've heard some inner sounds; I've seen some inner lights. Whether this has any "spiritual" significance I strongly doubt. The mind can produce all kinds of phenomena that exist only within the human brain. Neuroscience knows that. Anyone who takes psychedelics knows that.

I believe in searching for what is most real in life. But I'm skeptical that particular individual experiences point toward the deepest reality. This is like mistaking an apple or a ten-ton truck falling for the force of gravity. Gravity is more fundamental than any particular manifestation of it.

I realize the appeal of chasing after supposedly mind-blowing "spiritual" experiences. However, my personal conclusion is that the self which is trying to become so "spiritual" doesn't really exist, so attempts to become what one is not are doomed to fail. I'm not really a Buddhist, but I resonate with Buddhist skepticism about searching for reality in a transcendent realm beyond the here and now.

Ok. I would be interested in finding out exactly what inner sounds and lights you said you experienced. Because it would be all too easy to say the music in your mind and the subvocalisms together with quasi-hallucinatory hypnagogic imagery constitutes inner light and sound.

That is an important point because according to the literature when you see the inner light and go into it you are essentially in a kind of Out-of-Body experience state and travelling to dimensions that would constitute the afterlife state and higher realms. If these things are actually real it would strike me as easily the most important issue facing human beings - existence after death of the physical body.

Regarding the word spiritual, it obviously has so many different connotations it is useless to try to confine and define it. When i used it before i meant it in a simple sense to distinguish it from religious beliefs. I was not specific because, as you said, it doesn't really mean much if anything at all.

Did your 50 plus years of life searching for truth end up without some kind of proof of "God"? I wouldn't be surprised at this as i don't believe either that such a thing can be known, even if it exists.

If the here and now is what you are interested in how about toying with Eckhart Tolle and his "power of now"? The advaita teachings seem more up your alley. Is there a Buddhist equivalent of advaita?

The way i see it is like this: if we want to search for the truth (and all of us do) then we need to accept all phenomena that occur and not just dismiss things we feel skeptical of. BY this i mean that there are state of consciousness which seem to accompany physiological markers that are inexplicable by normal means. I will give 2 examples of this.

1) Religious ecstasy trances. There is a particular type of religious trance where the physiological parameters of the human body are put into a state of death, or suspended animation. There is no heart beat and no respiration occuring, which means a person is effectively dead, even though they come back out of the trance condition with HEIGHTENED energy, sensory perception, and no brain damage. Just like the NDE, this is scientifically mysterious.

2) Stigmata. My case in point is the Catholic monk Padre Pio. Firstly, hysterics and hypnotised subjects can be made to bleed wounds similar to stigmata given the appropriate conditions, but in the case of Pio the explanation that his wounds are hysterical or due to autohypnosis were refuted. And the most impressive thing about him is that when he died the wounds in his hands and feet etc completely disappeared. Not a trace left of them. All the attempts to refute Pio have failed and that is why there is only a couple of skeptical articles on him in the entire Google search.

I think the overall point i am trying to make here is really quite simple. I don't find atheism or skepticism plausible by any means, even though i share similar opinions sometimes with such people who espouse these views. So the likes of Randi, Shermer, Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and so on, do not impress me very much. I think those people are intellectually dishonest and they seem to be on a crusade of some kind, which effectively renders them fanatics. Where i agree with them all is their arguments against religion. But religion is not "God" and it isn't "spirituality".

And lest i forget, Padre Pio was a catholic, and so there are good reasons to be skeptical of any claims made in his name or the name of that religion. Having been raised a catholic myself and seen through the ridiculous beliefs and dogmas of that religion from an early age, i am by no means under the influence of it. My interest in Padre Pio stems from my research into anomalous phenomena. Why does someone like him develop stigmata wounds, absolutely adore the Roman Catholic Church, and so on, when it is easy enough to see that the beliefs of that religion are baseless? That is the question. I am not convinced that the particular religious beliefs a person holds make any difference whatsoever to any truthful spiritual experience they may have, but in this instance it is very, nay extremely difficult to brush aside this evidence.

As I said, I have had "inner" experiences of brilliant kaliedoscopic radiant light. I have heard tinkling of bells, humming of bees, a reverberating thunderous blasting roar, like an open "E" string on a bass guitar amplified through 10,000 Marshall amps while emanating from a blinding white light that didn't blind or the sound deafen. I have "traveled" at incomprehensible speed through light years of space and universes to "gardens" composed of colors outside the spectrum of known physics that I have never seen before. I have seen shimmering opalescent angels that speak without speaking.

I don't take this seriously. It didn't give me supernatural powers or make me a better person. It didn't confer any special ability or spiritual status or rank. Nor did I walk around in a state of bliss where even pictures of Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi or Bill Mahr would not elicit a reaction of revulsion.

It is just phenomena. Mind stuff. The source of it all is still the same and fully present whether sitting on a dweep in Daswan Dwar or in the filthy toilet stall at an overcrowded Taco Bell.

@tucson you mentioned something about the diet that I agree with. In addition I found out this morning that most candles contain animal fat. Why are satsangi's not allowed to eat glycerine while they are allowed to burn candles's with stearine :) Did the guru not know?

tucson,

I beg to differ when you said it is "just mind stuff" because what does even mean? It doesn't seem very believable when you type you have had all these fantastic experiences and in the next breath say "but i don't take it seriously". That seems to be a total logical disconnect.

What did your practices consist of when you had all these experiences?

I don't see what morality has to do with any of this. If you blow your mind on LSD you have some kind of world shattering personal experience but this has nothing to do with good behaviour. Were you taught that having spiritual experiences somehow made a person more moral? There seems to be something wrong with this point of view in my opinion.

To you these kinds of experiences might seem ever-present and so lose some kind of importance in your estimation but i would say that you are in a MASSIVE minority when it comes to these experiences, since most people on this planet do not have them. I have not had these experiences even though i have tried for many years. Obviously whatever it is you were doing worked.

tucson,

You are in a MASSIVE minority when it comes to your divine experiences, since most people on this planet do not have them. So, I shall conclude that you are with the angels from above and a totally kool guy.

Or tucson has better access to psychedelic drugs than most people do.

Yes, Nietzsche, RSSB followers are also allowed to use leather products with the excuse, as given by Charan Singh, that most animals are killed for their meat and leather is just a by-product, which is a bogus excuse, and that in India leather is often gathered from buffalo and brahman cattle that died naturally. Charan also used to say that we have to live in this world and should not be too fanatical about these things. So, under his rule cheese with rennet was permitted. But what happens when Gurinder takes over? He has forbidden rennet but still allows leather as Charan did. This is irrational inconsistency from one "perfect Param Sant Satguru" to the next. I think someone needs to bring to Gurinder's attention that candles contain an animal component. Also, lipstick and other products have ingredients of animal origin. What is the difference between glycerine, rennet, leather and meat? They are all animal derivatives and it seems they all should be banned according to RSSB karma teachings.

David R wrote in quotes:

"I beg to differ when you said it is "just mind stuff" because what does even mean? It doesn't seem very believable when you type you have had all these fantastic experiences and in the next breath say "but i don't take it seriously". That seems to be a total logical disconnect."

--Nothing I could say will make it believable. Phenomena come and go in consciousness or as appearance in Mind. Nothing is, in an absolute sense, any more important or significant than anything else, imo. Relatively speaking, yes, some things appear more significant than others.

"What did your practices consist of when you had all these experiences?"

--Some of these things occured while performing meditation as per RSSB (I was initiated by Charan Singh in 1970) while others occured spontaneously or while performing other practices. Actually, all these experiences happened spontaneously and not as an act of apparent will on my part. I can't sit down and duplicate these experiences. I have no special powers. (People who know me would laugh that I even bothered to clarify that.)

"To you these kinds of experiences might seem ever-present and so lose some kind of importance in your estimation but i would say that you are in a MASSIVE minority when it comes to these experiences, since most people on this planet do not have them. I have not had these experiences even though i have tried for many years. Obviously whatever it is you were doing worked."

--Although probably not the majority, many people have visions and religious experiences. Sometimes they are discounted as dreams or hallucinations and they may well be. Who is to say? David, it sounds like you are trying too hard to have these experiences for YOU and the idea of "you, me, I" is the source of all difficulty in the first place.

Roger, the only thing kool about me is that I send good pictures of females with special beer carrying devices while riding motorcycles.

Brian, The experiences I described above were not under the influence of psychotropic substances. But you are right in that I have taken my share of LSD, peyote, mescaline, 'shrooms and the like. In fact, I have a nice San Pedro cactus growing out front right now (for decorative purposes at this point in life). When taking such substances my experiences were more supportive of a Buddhist-like "no-self" reality based on a oneness with nature as it is. There were few hallucinations/visions I was not able to recognize as such. For me, the oneness-buddhist-no-self type stuff was valid. The visions were just passing phenomena like everything else.

tucson, nicely said... especially what you wrote at the end of your comment: "For me, the oneness-buddhist-no-self type stuff was valid. The visions were just passing phenomena like everything else."

This is pretty much my experience also, though my "vision" stuff was almost entirely psychedelics-produced, which is why I thought of leaving the mostly-unserious comment referring to the possibility of your visions having a similar cause.

I agree. It seems absurd to argue that some experiences have more cosmic significance than others. It's sort of like traveling around Earth. I've never seen the pyramids. I've never been to Paris. I've never even stood on the edge of the Grand Canyon. Good god! I've never been to Crater Lake and it's right here in Oregon!

But I've been to lots of other places. I've done lots of other things. Am I better or worse than people who have been to other places and done other things? Neither, in my opinion. Like you said, if there's really no "me," then what difference does it make what "I" remember having done?

Tucson wrote:
'But what happens when Gurinder takes over? He has forbidden rennet but still allows leather as Charan did.'

Yes and if you look into the about of animals killed because of cheese versus the amount of vital food in cheese for the vegetarian than I think this is a crime toward the human :)
By the way if I hold that I am alive than I also hold that everything is alive. Than everything has consciousness in the same way as we do. Cooking a potato is killing it and than eating its flesh. Thats just the way it is. That is why I don't spoil the food that I cooked but eat it with respect for the life that was once in it.

By the way did you realize that this spam checker on this site that asks to type words makes us translate complete books :) Wonder what we've contributed so far.

tucson,

LOL, yes the pic of girl(possibly a divine angel, relatively speaking) was a kool thing to send. I think, I still have that pic in my pc files. That girl, truely is within the MASSIVE minority. LOL......

Tara,
the ladies always get what they wish for (grin)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOvT72Y277s


http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/soa/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Anarchy

http://www.iwatchsonsofanarchy.com/episodeguide/


i think we should follow what our soul says if she says this path is right then don't go by material words

Tara, seems to me you value spirituality in your life even though you aren't perhaps gung ho about it all. I can relate to that.

But when you say vivid guru dreams are you referring to dreams in sleep or dream-like things in meditation?

And you have your Vedic astrology beliefs there too. I believe in Vedic astrology as well. If you can find a real astrologer they can be so accurate your balls would fall off.

'it is being reported Gurinder is now saying the same. Gurinder has even said the all the Beas books from the past should be burned'.

That is absolute rubbish, I've never heard such a thing, Gurinder has been asked extensive times in Satsangs if there will be any new books coming out. His answer was simple, its the same teachings, and there are lots of books from the past that need to be read.

Also you quote
'I believe the practice of surat shabda yoga, if successful,will produce self induced schizophrenia'

Rubbish,rubbish, Mike, you are the writer of Beas secrets and you are wrong. I know a vast amount of initiates who have practiced surat shabd yoga successfully, they are the best human beings I have ever met. They don't criticize anyone, they have great amount of compassion and a host of other things. They don't possess any attributes of
schizophrenia.

Mike along with your buddy David, you're not critics of the path, you're just plain haters. I analyse your website that supposedly 'exposes' RS, you come across as someone who is very frustrated with the path and keeps on coming up with extensive amounts of stuff to discourage people from following it.

Other people in this forum who have left the path keep on parading you, because they are hearing what they want to hear.
They too are frustrated, they want to hear 'bad' things just to make themselves feel better.

I don't believe RS is 100% genuine, and I don't know if there is a heaven or hell.
But I honestly hope justice is done to liars. I'm sick of people like Kirpal, maybe even Faqir Chand and yourself come up with stuff that isn't genuine just because you have some kind of personal grudge against something.

Gaz, you aren't talking about me. I am not supportive of the idea of atheism and psuedoskepticism.

Sorry David R, I didn't even know you were on here, I was referring to someone else.
Over the last year or so I've been getting real frustrated, as I have said I don't believe in RS 100%, Baba Ji doesn't expect you to either at the start.
Nonetheless I have decided I am still going for initiation. I want to implement the RS teachings. I keep on hearing listening to the sound current will send you to the DR.
From my experience I know plenty of initiates that have reached a high level within and haven't gone mental. They have become better human beings.
One of the things is when one goes within he can talk to the radiant form and ask a host of questions.

I would want to get into the minds of these critics, whether it be Sikhs,Brian etc and see what their real intentions are.
But I want to go within and I am going to be asking questions that are probalby on a lot of people's mind. E.g. the authenticity of Faqir Chand and Dera secrets.
When I find out the answers, I am going to write a book about my experiences from going within. This might not be condoned by RS, but I am going to go for it even if my spiritual progress stops, because I want the truth.
This is going to be a step forward, not only into RS but as spirituality as a whole.
Either I will make the step forward myself or I will ask someone who has gone within and met the radiant form. There are plenty of people I know but I don't think many would share their experiences.

I want to end this discussion on doubts etc, had Faqir Chand maybe lived another 10-15 years or so we would probalby have come to a conclusion but I still question the authenticity of Faqir.

I have been attending RS satsangs since i was 3, now I am 20, so another 4 years away from initiation. I'm going to meditate diligently for as long as I am alive.

I want answers, I want the truth, I firmly believe that God exists and I want to meet him.

well according to me i am satisfied with few people who commented there. I think yes there is no power in RSSB. They are just using the money making tricks.The main thing is that they are very clever people and they are handling the people brilliantly they give a speech which covers the problems which are generally faced by most of the human beings. Now when a person who is depressded in his life reached to these kind of guru's,they develop a feeling of god for that guru and think that they are giving the solution of their problem but in reality they are simply following psychology,they know what a normal human wants. Even few of my friends are also following them and forcing me to follow, but i have observed that everything is illogical whatever the benefits they are getting is just from the meditation which is already provided by our saints thousants of years back.....

Manish-

Guru Nanak,Jesus are no different from Gurinder Singh and co.

Gaz-

well i have not read your previous comments in detail but yes in short i just wanna know what does it mean ,wheather you believe guru nanak,jesus and gurinder singh or not????

I was in one of the other santmat groups some years ago. They are ALL frauds, only after power and money and indeed they are clever, very very clever and by the way also all of them extremely rich as far as i can see. The socalled teachings are packed very cleverly to deceive people. They are organized like a well oiled multinational,with many resources and know all about marketing and manipulating words etc. Many of the followers are good fine people. It is a shame, to deceive people this way and all these guru s know exactly what they are doing. Socalled meditationgroups pfff, it is only about power. but not for the followers. The socalled meditation itself is first of all useless, does not bring inner peace nothing, 2,5 hours a day it is crazy and very unhealthy. Those inner sounds etc is all nonsense and dangerous, the meditation is very dangerous for people who are not very stable or had bad past, and the diet is destructive for some people (genetically some can not digest milk, really dangerous) and not animalfriendly at all. People who become psychotic and drop out are left to their own devices. The socalled inner help tsss all lies. It is dangerous. I am happy I left. Humans are all equal. greetings from me.

Mary,

What guru did you follow? Your story sounds interesting.

Radhasoami is a big fraud who is misusing religion for the sake of grabbing land.

Some people are seriously 'illiterates with degrees',they don't know anything else than interfering, first of all not a single guru of Radha Soami said that he was secong form of god or anything like that, he is a messenger who just wants us to walk on the path leading to god, in India there are many different gurus from different names who started few decades ago and u can see legal cases against them once or many times, but radha soami is more than 100 yrs old and still no case..... u just listen to he's statsang and he never tells anyone to follow him, or donate money or to do anything else than meditating for god..... give him 1 yr of devotion and u'll realise everything.... my parents are devoted to them for 23 years and still want me to join..... its the oldest spiritual orgainisation....and still stable coz it was one of the firsts and is part of truth.... All I'm saying and also babaji says that.... don't pray me or anything...that's why only 2-3 photos of himself are released till now....because he don't want us to pray him like a god.... just wants us to be ourselves to the fullest...100%... and meditation is the key to success....listen to his satsangs...u'll feel he just wants good for us.....what does he wants from us in return????? why would he fake it.......and not only him...all of radha soami gurus for more than 100 years??? i have seen very poor people who can't donate anything attending satsangs...and who still are too much devoted from generations... Why a con-man would say not to follow him just meditate, be a positive godly person and then follow yourself? you guys should visit dera satsang beas, Punjab. Spend some time, get knowledge of the life there and reply back..... tell me how muchthey earn for themselves or whatever negative thoughts u have right now... and yeah i was aggressive in begining coz i am a 22 yr old guy...so its natural... :D

Radha Soami is an true masters can anyone prove them wrong .Radha Soami to all .

We people dont have eyes to see what is right or wrong for us

Just skimmed through the comments on this thread. One thing is glaringly obvious - people finding fault to justify their actions in not managing to strictly follow the principles of Sant Mat. Also finding difficulty in maintaining the strictness of meditation, controlling the excesses of mind not just when sitting but throughout each waking moment.

Its about wanting to indulge isn't it, and then the guilt which needs to be justified. So then they blame the teacher and have to find fault with the teachings, instead of looking at themselves.

I am so far from perfect as a satsangi, but I refuse to blame anyone else, just kinda take the urgency out of being a 'perfect disciple' and do the very best I can. It is a battle with the mind but why blame the messenger?

I just don't see a scam in RSSB at all, and I see people joining together here on this blog with others of a like mind to have a whinge... and thats okay as well, if it helps. I had a laugh about someone getting initiated by 7 Radhasoami Masters, talk about hedging your bets!

If we see a scam then who is fooling who? Sant Mat is about finding out who we really are.

Not doing the blame game here, just some observations which won't make me very popular, yeah I guess it is nitpicking lol

Most gurus and spiritual leaders are not scammers - they really believe what they're teaching. Their subjective experience has convinced them of what they're trying to convert others to join them in believing.

Religion is most often a communicable disease; less often, a scam.

@ Mike Williams

Doubts came into every mind before taking any decision. So in this case too. But every person takes the best decision in his/her capacity for his life. And people to whom you considered ignorant and villagers, are satisfied with their inner journey. That's why they are still with RSSB. I am not a satsangi but i see the values that a true satsangi has. They never criticize anyone.

RSSB unleash their quest for ultimate political power after claiming to have conviniently
remained apolitical since inception possibly waiting for right time & opportunity
by endorsing family member-an ex IPS officer as potential Delhi CM who chose
people in power (instead of sharing the platform with upcoming party which may
have a long way to go/taking cue from resp. Baba ramdev ji)as current prime minister/govt.
considered pro hinduism & known to be impressed/chosen her for endorsing his projects like
swach Bharat-interestingly RSSB sect chief may endorse living with modest means whereas
inspiring for family relations with buisness empires i.e a formerly large pharma co. &
now insurance sector in India & abroad targeting the royalty lineage trying to retain genetically
blessed people as his followers-Hence not surprisingly the legacy has been retained by members of
same family over the years where positive image & genetically blessed people are retained as part
of family to ensure that it remains confined to the family & the nominated head is supported by the
family as they know that creating emprire from scratch is impossible & hence supporting the
nominated head with vested interests is the best/only option available especially now when
their second line i.e.head of major centres have evolved as equally strengthened--obviously
ordinary people with modest means of earning cannot compete with people with resources in
terms of time/money & devotion hence have to let go the demanding volunatry service -people
who are willing to go to any extent to gain social acceptance are the vulnerable
& easy targets-offering people in higher judiciary/ people with political
influence back home in punjab/Delhi/other states obligatory positions/exclusivity/VIP treatment
& personal appointments reserved only for selected few-rest must meditate to reach the level
& interact with him within their soul-following up with their network abroad
-now seeking to have control over all 3 major constituents of any democracy namely
judiciary,legislation & Executive with ex lt. guv. of delhi in their kitty.
Now is the time to seek returns for eye camps/free/subsidised food services offered to people
& cashing on the unpaid followers associated to the sect riding on their guilt/weaknesses.
Interestingly most of the followers are not able to improve their social status i.e.gap between
elite/middle/poor people remain conspicuous in their gatherings.very few people know that
question answer sessions abroad had created some very uncomfortable situations with previous
head (it's a different matter that the recorded versions allowed to circulte among people
were usually the edited versions where only positive & submissive peoples' utterances were
retained to give impressions that people abroad were equally intimidated by the sect head
which is easily contradicted by the critical reviews over the net which are usually asked
to be ignored as the work of detractors/competitors/enemies of the sect)
-hence current head while replicating the same modelin Indian context have categorically limited
the age criteria to early twenties especially targeting the teenagers
who are presumably ignorant about the large picture & more bothered about their
regular/innocent daily life rigmoroles categorically the RSSB Tower Bandra,Mumbai,
California RSSB complex,Vast landscape in Delhi/NCR apart from numerous centres in
every nook & corner/along the highways cashing on conflicts amongst other 2 big religions
namely Islam/christianity,proliferation & number of centres/land occupied across the globe
could easily be identified as political power they may command/influence
riding on the positive image so far.... clearly indicating that the flaws
are effectively masked/suppressed out of fear/devotion/manipulation/PR activities
as they know even the politically motivated people cannot ignore the
presence & influence they yield amongst the common man especially in democratic
& spiritually infuenced set up in a country like India.

PPPD Swamiji Maharaj was the founder of Radhasoami fath/religion. He was the incarnation of Radhasoami - the supreme power. His disciples later took forward His teachings. The chain of Gurus were neither incarnations nor God but the 'Supreme Current' of Radhasoami flowed through them. The eighth Sant Satguru truely is Revered Dr. Prem Saran Satsangi Sahab of Dayalbagh Radhasoami Satsang.
An important point to remember is that the current of Supreme Power Radhasoami flows only through one Sant Satguru. All other so called Gurus are not true representatives of Radhasoami Religion.

Sunil get a shrink

-
Hi Sunil
SwamiJi Maharaj
was initiated by Tulsu Sahib

Nobody can even come close to The Source on his's own.

777


Well, my father started the medication at the age of 34. From my experience I could say something must be there. This is not blind faith.

Evidence 1, he started getting "surti" where person shivers automatically. This came after his daily devotion of 2.5 hours and after 15 years of initiation.

Evidence2, I know my uncle who is now friend of my father has same experience.

I am not sure what this about.

Hmm how about sitting still 2.5 hrs for 15 years and seeing what happens? Maybe one just starts to shiver. It's no evidence.

To Rajiv, Sir very strange, 15 years and that also 2.5 hours. In 5 years Parhlad and Dhruv got GOD and still you are saying for Surti. Sir, what is Surat, what is Nirat and where does its place, Go to a Sanatani Saint he will definitely help your above stated relatives.

Apart from millions going in, seeing the rivers of Sound and Light coming from Him
hitch-hike there in which ever grows

HARSH said in 2014
when he was 22

""" . All I'm saying and also babaji says that.... don't pray me or anything...that's why only 2-3 photos of himself are released till now....because he don't want us to pray him like a god.... just wants us to be ourselves to the fullest...100% """

YES this is the greatest miracle of all
Myriads of Paparazzi's today , . . . Countless Ultra HD 4K zoomable cameras/phones around
and only 3 photo s available, He gave himself during 26 years
Think Princess Diana
Chapeau they say here in France

777

No difference between GOD and Satguru

Gurur Brahma, Gurur Vishnu, Gurur devo Maheshwar
Gurur Sakshat Parbrahma tasme Shri Gurve namah.

Dhyan mulam guru murat Pooja moolam guru Padam
manter mulam guru vakyam moksh moolam guru kirpa.

only the person having lack of knowledge says difference.

Radhasoami baba is fake.
here are the proofs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMPa22oKpmQ
https://www.facebook.com/RealityOfRadhaSoami/

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