Is Radha Soami Satsang Beas a scam?

If I believed in God, which I don't, I'd call what happened to me today a message from God. Instead, let's just call it a message and leave it at that.

During my morning reading/meditation period I had some ideas for the post I planned to write later on. Right now I'm looking at what I jotted down on some note paper:

"Buyer beware" Penguin Windows
Religion as false advertising
Knowledge of falseness
Christianity? No
RSSB? Yes

A few hours later I got an email notification that another comment had been submitted to this blog. It was from regular Church of the Churchless visitor Tucson. He'd written these thoughts about Radha Soami Satsang Beas, a spiritual organization that we both had belonged to at one time:

Many criminals and con-artists take advantage of people's good intentions and humanity in order to victimize them. People pose as representatives of fake charities for disaster victims to extract funds from sympathetic people who want to help out.

A few years back there was a man who would pretend to be having car trouble and when someone would stop to help he would murder them and steal their car.

RSSB poses as a legitimate spiritual path with a master that has the supernatural powers to spiritually liberate individuals from the cycle of rebirths and install them in Sach Khand (heaven).

This path steals your faith and trust, falsely giving hope for salvation and a blissfull afterlife. This is injurious because once RSSB is recognized for what it is some followers are left disillusioned, without hope and in despair...their beloved guru is a fake and their path to god is obliterated.

RSSB is a criminal organization which under the guise of a legitimate path to salvation it uses the free work and donations (seva) of its followers to expand its wealth and scope of operations and power.

Just saying it like it is, imho.

They're a bunch of crooks, you know, bad guys. And the guru is the leader of the gang. He is the worst of the worst because he knows what he isn't. Apparently he has no shame or conscience in perpetuating this sham, this scam, this rip-off.

Wow. Mind meld. We were on a similar wavelength. I can show how by explaining the rather cryptic jottings that I shared above.

In my other blogging life, I write about all kinds of stuff, which includes rants about ripoff artists I've come across. Notably, a Corporation Compliance Recorder scam (I've saved people tens of thousands of dollars by alerting them to this, judging from the many "thank you" comments), and sleazy sales practices by Penguin Windows.

I called the latter post, "Buyer beware with Penguin Windows."

Lots of commenters agree with me. Some don't. That's fine, but this year the Washington state Attorney General got Penguin Windows to stop making false sales claims, so it looks like I correctly identified the company as ethics-impaired.

The Attorney General’s office accused the Mukilteo-based company, Statewide Inc., which does business as Penguin, of “misrepresenting its products, making false claims about the energy savings customers would achieve, and misleading consumers.”

As Tucson noted in his comment, con-artists of various stripes abound. "Buyer beware" is good advice to live by -- in both the material and spiritual spheres (assuming there is a difference between them).

Problem is, there's no Attorney General or Consumer Reports assessing the validity of religious, spiritual, and mystical claims. That's impossible to do, given how other-worldly those promises usually are.

Religiosity involves a lot of faith.

Salvation, life after death, entering the seventh heaven, meeting God -- almost always these sorts of goodies are supposed to be bestowed upon true believers in a future which never comes. So in this sense religions are indeed scams, because they don't deliver what was promised.

However, there are scams and then there are SCAMS. Christianity strikes me as a religion where everybody is getting scammed, because Jesus and God are supposed to deliver the divine goods, and they're nowhere in sight.

So the Pope, or whoever, can be absolutely sincere in his or her belief that becoming a Christian is the way to a wonderful afterlife. Preachers can fervently promise salvation with full knowledge that they're not the ones responsible for sealing the deal.

But like tucson says at the end of his comment:

"They're a bunch of crooks, you know, bad guys. And the guru is the leader of the gang. He is the worst of the worst because he knows what he isn't. Apparently he has no shame or conscience in perpetuating this sham, this scam, this rip-off."

The Radha Soami Satsang Beas guru is considered to be God in human form. If he is, the guru himself would know it. And if he isn't, then he also would know it.

Evidence, or rather the lack thereof, points strongly to the latter possibility as being much more likely. I meditated diligently for thirty-five years and never saw any sign of the guru's divinity that the RSSB teachings describe. And I've never heard of any demonstrable or convincing evidence that anyone else has either.

Millions of disciples. No one getting the promised divine goods. What's going on here?

Sometimes people accuse me of being unfairly critical of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. Well, that would be a more valid criticism of my criticalness if RSSB were akin to Christianity -- if the religion's leaders weren't responsible for bringing followers back to the lap of God.

The RSSB guru is supposed to do just that: accompany each and every disciple through higher planes of consciousness back to God. If nobody is experiencing this, then the guru isn't who he claims to be.

And since he knows who he is, that would make RSSB a scam. I'm not absolutely certain that it is. Heck, I'm not absolutely certain of anything. I'm just saying, buyer beware.

Comments

[Dungeness]

Evidence, or rather the lack thereof, points strongly to the latter possibility as being much more likely. I meditated diligently for thirty-five years and never saw any sign of the guru's divinity that the RSSB teachings describe. And I've never heard of any demonstrable or convincing evidence that anyone else has either.

I can't speak for RSSB but the mystical tradition has always slice 'n diced its pupils. Expectations of visions, petulant demands, tearful tales of disappointment are immediate casualties.

Discipling the mind is a daunting task with serious meditative practices demanding hours of daily mediation over a lifetime. The demonstrable, convincing evidence has to be
something internal -- a greater focus, stillness, increasing awareness of the here and now. These are the 'divine goods' - who cares about being in the 'lap of God' or whether some spiritual warranty is valid.

Bashing RSSB or any mystical path seems suspect to me. If most pupils experience nothing of value, then the practice will implode on its own. Asserting that the path fails to provide evidence seems unsupportable to me. Surely evidence has to be a do-it-yourself validation that the practice has some value for you personally -- not some Guru's demo of his own divinity or promise of shepherding you all the way back to God.

[Roger]

"Surely evidence has to be a do-it-yourself validation that the practice has some value for you personally -- not some Guru's demo of his own divinity or promise of shepherding you all the way back to God."

---This statement, I could agree with. The so-called evidence can and could be created from within someone's own duality. That said, an evidence/validation, I can find for myself could come from engaging in numerous religions and spiritual groups practices. I don't have to go to RSSB or a guru to get such. Main point, my validation is one of duality. I'm not going to play games with myself.

[tucson]

Dungeness said: " who cares about being in the 'lap of God' or whether some spiritual warranty is valid."

--Well, if you make certain vows and devote your life to a path (RSSB) that calls itself a science and that guarantees results within four lifetimes (the warranty) then it would behoove you to determine if the warranty is valid before avoiding egg whites (an RSSB vow) and spontaneous extramarital sex (another RSSB vow) with a beer (another RSSB taboo) toting co-worker for the next four lifetimes.

Dungeness said: "Bashing RSSB or any mystical path seems suspect to me. If most pupils experience nothing of value, then the practice will implode on its own."

--Suspect? What do you mean? Like we're part of some conspiracy to bring down a fake path? How about the conspiracy of RSSB to exploit followers on the basis of its false promise? That isn't suspect? RSSB may or may not implode on its own. People are willing to stick with it, despite the exploitation that is plain to see, because it gives them hope and a dream to aspire to. They feel taken care of by the supposed all-powerful god-in-human-form guru.

Dungeness said: "Asserting that the path fails to provide evidence seems unsupportable to me. Surely evidence has to be a do-it-yourself validation that the practice has some value for you personally -- not some Guru's demo of his own divinity or promise of shepherding you all the way back to God."

-- Yes, it is purely subjective. I can't prove the guru isn't what he says he is, or that believing in some illusion is not without value to someone. But c'mon man. If someone makes fantastic supernatural claims, common sense dictates that you remain sceptical without evidence. If I told you I had a space ship and could take you to a paradise planet where you would live for eternity in bliss, would you believe me without evidence? If my price for this ride was your standing on your head for five years (except for bathroom breaks) would you do it without at least seeing the space ship and that it really worked?

Maybe you like standing on your head. Go for it! I ain't stoppin' ya. Just giving my opinion. I could be wrong. I admit it. But here is a list of things the guru is supposed to be able to do:

1) Is able to traverse all the internal regions, astral, causal and beyond to the seventh heaven at will. In fact, the guru is indeed believed to be God-in-human-form with all the inherent powers that are attributed to God.

2) The master "takes on" his disciples karmas and is able to administer the disciples' karmas, pralabdh and sinchit, in the most efficacious manner for the disciples spiritual release. He is able to, if it is his mauj (will), reduce the impact of a karma from "a swordthrust to a pinprick".

3) Is always aware of each individual disciple and is able to assist them if need be from his seat in their third eye. The disciple is never alone. The master is always with them even when performing bodily functions or dying in a car crash.

4) Installs a radiant form of himself in the third eye of the disciple which will serve as the disciples' guide through the vast inner regions which are full of traps and pitfalls in the form of allurements such as siddhis (supernatural powers). It is said that without the guru's help, it is impossible to cross the Maha Sunn, a region of great darkness and Bank Nal, a rotating spiritual cave.

5) Will come at the time of death to aid the disciple in his/her transition to the non-material and place them in an inner location best suited for their continued spiritual progress.

6) Is able by his grace at any given moment to bestow upon the disciple spiritual experience, transformation, and release.

7) Is able to discern by some esoteric means the souls that are marked for his care and supervision.

8) Once under the guidance of a PLM (perfect living master) the disciple is guaranteed guidance to the care of the PLM in subsequent lifetimes should it be necessary to take future physical rebirths to resolve their store of karma.

9) The master is beleived to be "Perfect", whatever that means, and does not make mistakes. He can do no wrong. All his actions, even such things as having a runny nose, have some spiritual purpose for the benefit of the disciple. For example, after initiations if the master has a cold it is believed that is because he has taken on so much karma that it must manifest or be expressed in some way.

I could go on, but isn't this enough? Are you buying it? Would you buy it? Would you advise others to buy it?

[Roger]

tucson,

Liked your comment above.

I noticed,

"For example, after initiations if the master has a cold it is believed that is because he has taken on so much karma that it must manifest or be expressed in some way."

---What karma did Charan take on when he was suddenly suprised by the barking dog? You related that story awhile back. When Charan (a GIHF) was for a moment frightened(scared out of his pants) by the dog, did he absorb some karma thru that hurtful experience?
Ha ha.....I know i'm being silly....Roger

[Janice]

Hello everyone. A friend showed me this blog and it is very interesting. However i have very strong faith in Radha Soami. I grew up with my father, who is a professor, in England and i would always remeber him mediating dilligently for hours a day. I always asked him what do you see? what do you hear? he always told me "child wait your turn." Then i would also ask "Dad how long do you have to medidate to see God or the master?" he would tell me "child if you want to count hours. then it would take millions of lifetimes. Our mediation is like taking a shovel and striking the ground in search of water. He told me with only His Grace will you return home." Now my father passed away couple years ago. But what really solidified my faith was the evening he passed away. It was a normal evening and he took me into the room for a private conversation. He then told me it was his last hours in this Earth. He told me live an honest and moral life and do not get to attached. I personally am not trying to influence anyone and whether you chose to credit my experience it is up to you. Thank You

[Dungeness]

I could go on, but isn't this enough? Are you buying it? Would you buy it? Wo
uld you advise others to buy it?

But buying theories (or advising others) isn't really the issue as I see it. Of course, some are more credulous than others. If someone's initially dazzled by GIHF, doppelgängers, soul/karma shepherding, etc., they may be enticed to begin the hard, relentless labor of looking inward, of trying to focus their attention, anchoring in the here/now, and stilling the raging mind. Then the journey's worth taking, even if, they're characterized as one of the "naive millions".

But c'mon man. If someone makes fantastic supernatural claims, common sense dictates that you remain sceptical without evidence.

To pre-empt the journey by demanding a priori proof may resonate with some; others, not. They may remain totally skeptical but almost certainly benefit from the inwardness and meditative discipline.

Tara: Discipling the mind can also be done through the practice of music, martial art and other disciplines that require time, perseverance, patience and practice.

Sure, but I believe those are more circumscribed disciplines whose goal is primarily to hone skills in a particular art. The mystical path is more comprehensive and demands focus, stillness and immersion in the 'now' at all times. As I understand it, there's a far greater commitment of time and effort and often requires a very strict lifestyle as well

[Mike Williams]

quote Nietzsche from the Antichrist

"....one must know today that a`theologian,
a priest, a Pope does not merely err in every
sentence he speaks, he lies - but he is no longer
free to lie 'innocently', out of 'ignorance'.

The priest knows as well as anyone that there
is no longer any God, any sinner, any redeemer-
that free`will, moral world order,are lies...
intellectual seriousness no longer permits
anyone not to know about these things

All the concepts of the (Catholic) Church are
recognized for what they are: the most malicious
false-coinage there is. The priest is recognized
for what he is: the most dangerous kind of parasite,
the actual poison spider of life."

I would like to add thst I grew up Catholic
and went to Catholic School. They never
taught me about the tens of millions of
people they murdered during the inquisitions, or conquistadors.

I have been initiated by 7 Radhasoami Masters. Includes Charan.

My whole family in the last ten years
has died, while I was present. No radiant
form of any Guru came to any of them.

There was no withdrawel of the spirit
which caused the sting of 1,000 scorpions,
as Darshan claimed.

Nothing the Gurus has told us is true.

[Mike Williams]

"stilling the raging mind"
"time and effort"
quote poster

These are the great traps of the Guru.

The raging mind can be stilled temporarily.

But, it returns. By trying to still the mind
the "WHO" (self) is waxed.

The 'raging mind' can never be stopped
until the realization of no self (WHO).

Thaought is not the problem, no matter
how fast it moves.

The 'WHO' is the problem.

But, what happens when one realizes there
is no 'WHO" (self) that can stop thought ?

That no 'WHO' exists.

The WHO (self) is a belief of thought.
This WHO belief controls our lives and thoughts.

Impersonal thought, personalizes itself into a WHO belief.

The problem is we never turn around and
look directly at thought.

We use thought, supress thought.... all
our lives. But, we never take a single
thought and look directly at it.

All thought is net neutral...harmless.
No matter how fast it twirls.

So, 'WHO' makes thought evil ?

'WHO' is thinking 'your' thoughts ?

Can a 'WHO" be found ?

[Mike Williams]

The Toolbox of Our Minds

We open the tool chest and find hammers,
screwdrivers, knives, saws.

These tools can be used to build...
or .... to kill.

The tool is harmless in itself.

And, thought is harmless in itself,
used as a tool of man to function.

Man cannot function without thought.

Why do we try to get rid of thought
with yoga, drugs, nada, etc ?

The Guru has told us to suppress thought
to still our 'self'.

But, if thought is a harmless tool, why
suppress thought ?

The Guru himself has failed with nada and
inner planes to kill his desires. How will
you succeed, where the master has failed ?

Will not you become just another saintly
hypocrite ?

Is there a fundamental way that will change
this world without suppression and resistance ?

We are afraid to loose our 'selfs'.

But, what if we never had a 'self' (WHO) ?

How do you get rid of a 'self' that never
existed ?

How do you get a ghost out of your house ?

[tucson]

Dungeness: "GIHF, doppelgängers, soul/karma shepherding, etc., they may be enticed to begin the hard, relentless labor of looking inward, of trying to focus their attention, anchoring in the here/now, and stilling the raging mind. Then the journey's worth taking, even if, they're characterized as one of the "naive millions".

--IF there is a destination then the journey may be worth taking. Otherwise I hope they enjoy the ride because I think the journey IS the destination. This is it. There is no other place. IMO.

"To pre-empt the journey by demanding a priori proof may resonate with some; others, not. They may remain totally skeptical but almost certainly benefit from the inwardness and meditative discipline."

--You are assuming that "inwardness" and meditative discipline is beneficial. If we are speaking of RSSB, I personally think their meditation technique is not beneficial. That is a subject for another time. Bye.

[Roger]

Janice,

Thanks for your message.

--What was your father a professor of?

Regarding meditation experiences, your father would reply with,

"child wait your turn."

"he would tell me "child if you want to count hours. then it would take millions of lifetimes."

then, you stated,

"But what really solidified my faith was the evening he passed away."

--Just curious, what happened on that evening that could solidify your faith?
--Is a solidified faith, the foundation of hours of meditation?

Thanks for a reply,
Roger

[tucson]

I said to Dungeness (above): " If we are speaking of RSSB, I personally think their meditation technique is not beneficial. That is a subject for another time. Bye."

--That other time came in the form of Mike William's three comments above. I am completely comfortable with those comments and feel he covered the subject quite satisfactorily. Thanks to him, I have nothing to add.

[Just passing by]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/statbelief.htm

[Mike Williams]

Hi Tara, Roger, Tucson

I can see you people have already figured
out that a search is worthless. My hats
off to you people.

You have figured out Saints are evil.

If you look at Faquir Chand, his final
step was to ask himself WHO he was.

Faquir Chand asked himself if he had not
created a web (of his RS teachings).

The fact is, he had. We can ask our selves
WHO we are up front.

Faquir did not realize the state of no self.
He said he was a drop of consciousness.
Consciousness was proven temporal by science, an effect not a cause of evolution.

Enlightenment is defined as the "Realization
of No Self".

Now RS tries everything to go beyond and
sublimate the self. To still and kill the self.

But, there is one problem. The self doesn't
exist, even before we try to get rid of it.

We were trying to get rid of something
that never existed.

Any attempt to get rid of the self by nada,
sublimation and supression will fail.

These things only wax the idea, or myth in
our minds, that we have a self which can be gotten rid of.

You people have figured this out.

But, this stubborn myth haunts us, even when
we see intellectually this is true.

Only each person can see for themself how
their brain personalizes impersonal thought.

We have been hypnotised since birth. No
amount of good logic will convince a person
he does not have a self.

When Yogananda decided he would be a Guru
teaching surat shabda yoga, the first thing
he studied was messmerism.

The Guru teaches us self hypnosis. We constantly think of the Guru and repeat the holy names.

We become oblivious to reality.

Walking ZOMBIES.

Our family and friends try to help us,
but we simply won't listen.

I have tried to use Occam's Razor approach
to simplify enlightenment to its core
basis.

To come to common terms easily understandable to the average person.

So, it can be repeated with clarity.

That way it can be explained to other people.

They can see directly why all search is futile in no uncertain terms.

They can see that they can think for themsleves.

People have no confidence is themselves.

People are scared.

Remember when we were involved in these
horrible cults ? Remember how people treated
us nice even when we were deluded ?

There will be thousands of deluded people come here to this club in the future centuries.

Please be kind to these poor souls. Speak
to them with compassion, no matter what they say to you.

Read U. G. Krishnamurti, linked on
my website below.

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

[Roger]

Mike,

You stated,

"You have figured out Saints are evil."

--I haven't figured out that Saints are evil. Saints may or may not be OK people.

and

"Enlightenment is defined as the "Realization of No Self".

--Enlightenment and Realization are just words. The "No Self" may be nonknowable.

[tucson]

Mike Williams said: ""You have figured out Saints are evil."

--I think what Mike Williams means is that I have figured out that those who pose as saints...('saint' being defined as a supposed perfect person with supernatural powers sent by god to liberate souls from rebirth and return them to heaven)...are evil because they allow others to worship them and rely on them for their spiritual salvation. Such individuals accept favors, gifts, and work from followers because of who they believe the saint is. Such individuals are parasites and evil if they KNOW that they do not have the spiritual powers people believe they have. I believe this is the case with the current line of RSSB gurus. I could be wrong. I don't think so.

However, there are individuals who have achieved some level of awareness or ability that leads them and those who come into contact with them to believe they are "saints". These so-called saints, masters, gurus, swamis, psychics, priests, shamans, brujos, lamas, yogis, etc. may be sincere and honest in their motivations even if they are deluded or have only seen part of the picture. I would not call these "saints" evil. They may be very kind and honest with good intentions. Some of them may simply be mentally ill but not deliberately evil setting out to deceive and take advantage of that deception as RSSB gurus do.

I think some teachers-guide types are beneficial. They help others break through their conditioning to see what is true for themselves. They do not set themselves up as something special, saintly or godlike and do not allow themselves to be worshipped as gods. They see themselves as ordinary folks who simply want to help out or, who in spite of their lack of desire for attention, find themselves serving as advisors to those seeking truth.

[Dungeness]

The Guru has told us to suppress thought
to still our 'self'.

The mystical practices I'm aware of never advocate suppression but rather focused awareness of our thoughts. Often they may use a mantra to increase focus and displace idle mental chatter.

Perhaps you're using suppression in some looser sense... but in this context it's misleading in my opinion since it implies a forceful, head-on exclusion of thought. The mystic antidote for unfocused, idle background chatter is more one of observing and letting go as well as displacement.

I believe it's short sighted to view mystic practice as hypnosis or walking zombie-ism. Mystics do take aim at useless, unfocused thought... the very real "poltergeists in the house".

[Nietzsche]

And we didn't even talk about the being made very small, guilty and worthless by the ego police inside RSSB. Or about those same people ramming their mantras through their mind like steel hammers and forcing their body into pain and ending their meditation with RS I am exhausted :)

The Yoga itself isn't without pontentiality when you apply it exactly right with common sense and a lot of teaching and effort and hopefully a teacher that knows how to...

[Mike Williams]

"Enlightenment and Realization are just
words. The "No Self" may be nonknowable."
quote Roger

Hi Roger, once again you are correct.

The 'No Self' is unknowable, because it does
not exist.

When the realization of no self (WHO) 'happens',
all that is left is impersonal thought.

No higher state of consciousness, nor a Higher Self,
appears to fill the vacuum.

This is the Great Misperception.

There is no need for a Higher Self to fill the vacuum.

Why ?

Because all 'selfish' actions are now gone. The needs of
the particular person still exist, but these are not
selfish. 'Selfish' actions are vanity and glory in all it's

forms, which then create hate and jealousy and greed.

All the evil in the world comes from personalized
thought.

The mythical and non existant self (WHO), controls humanity
through each individual.

'Selfish' actions can only occur as long as a person
'believes' he has a real self (WHO) to wax.

Who would wax a self they know actually doesn't exist ?

So, effortlessly, the self falls away, by seeing it was
a myth. And, effortlessly, selfish actions stop of
their own accord.

The hypnotic spell has ended. And, it was only a hypnotic
spell that prevented us from realization.

Impersonal thinking automatically creates compassion.

For the enlightened person, of course enlightenment
does not exist. But, it does exist for those under
the myth of the self.

quote dungeness;
"The mystical practices I'm aware of never advocate

suppression, but rather focused awareness of our thoughts.

Often they may use a mantra to increase focus and displace

idle mental chatter."

The idea of nada, focused awareness, mantra, etc., are the

great trap of the Guru. Nor, will the real self appear in the
spaces between thoughts.

By temporary suppression of thought, we are suppossed
to move into other dimensions. But, the Gurus from
Sach Kand were called criminals by Faquir Chand.
The Gurus commit the most horrible atrocities from every
group.

Once off camera, the Guru is a monster. Why ? Personalized
thought immediately returns to them. Saints are not selfless.

It is not just Radhasoami masters, but most other masters.
The cult busters are having a field day with all the
information about Saints behaviour.

From Sai Baba, to Rajneesh, to Jaimal Singh. Why would anyone
want to become evil ?

Jaimal Singh was a child molester and was thrown out
of the satsangs of Salig Ram and Misra for it. Sawan was
a usurper and self declared Guru and was described as greedy.
Charan lied like crazy in Beas books via omission. But,

Charan, being a lawyer, was much more erudite in his lies
than Kirpal. Kirpal was the greatest liar in RS history.

Kirpal admitted to Faquir Chand he was not telling the truth.
Sawan admitted to Faquir Chand he was not telling the truth.

Do we go to Al Capone for love ?

Look at Rajinder Singh. He drives a Porsche, wants to give

satsangs on cruise ships, signs books at Border's, lives in a

mansion in Chicago. I saw flyers in a laundymat with his
then upcomming visit to the Hilton in Los Angeles.

Over the coming days on television Rajinder gave commercials
inbetween episodes of Criminal Minds on ION TV. Then one day
in a pizza parlor I looked up at the screen and saw his

commercial during a golf game !!!!!!!

Shear madness. I believe the Kirpal lineage the most
dangerous cult on the earth today. I believe Kirpal was
a very severe schizophrenic.

I believe the practice of surat shabda yoga, if successful,

will produce self induced schizophrenia.

There is no fine line between Saints and madness.

But, Saints like Charan were not mad. He simply lied.

[Nietzsche]

Hi Mike,

Do you have any verifiable data on the remark that surat shabd yoga induces schizophrenia or lets say psychoses? Or is it perhaps something you saw happen around you?
I do know of a schizophrenic satsangi but don't know if she was already before she joined.

Regards,
N.

[Jousa the Menance]

Even if one of these Master's are authentic and they know it, it still comes off as a scam for the multitudes that chose to followed one of pretenders to the Gotti [sic] after their initiating Guru left the earth plane and then not having Real successor informing the misguided ones of their error thru some direct experiential awareness

[Nietzsche]

And Mike thank you for the link to this ebook:
http://elearn.mtsac.edu/dlane/The%20Unknowing%20SageMINI.pdf

It tells the story of a guru that is seen by his people without him knowing. It is very honest in explaining that the guru is just a human and that whatever appears is part hallucination and part the spiritual realm taking a form of the guru or the guru finding himself accidentally on places that are meaningfull to others. I guess that when we meditate we plug in to some parts of our selfs and god or the gods (hallucinate ?) that the guru is not aware of. From a logical point of view it would be strange if the guru knew of all the million followers. It would require him to speed up his mind to incredible speeds to think all these thoughts during one day :) Or as someone said, I have never seen a guru in his perfect body do the 100 meters or reproduce special relativity with his perfect mind ;)
I personally find Eckanckar much more realistic and less focused on the guru religion fairy tales. But no doubt that they will have their own fairy tales.

[Mike Williams]

Schizophrenia is almost always present in advanced
yogis. I have been initiated in many groups by many
masters. A good Guru is almost always nuts. They have
a very different look in their eye. They act weird.
Their behaviour is bizarre. On my long journey, I
instinctly knew a good Guru was nuts. When I came upon
Charan Singh, I hesistated to get initiated, because he
clearly was not nuts. I went to satsangs of most different
RS groups and saw many people. The advanced disciples were almost always nuts. Borderline personalities do well
with surat shabda, or kundalini based yogas. But, with unrelated groups it is the same.

Mentally ill people are attracted to mysticism because
of their great affinity. In India, the schizophrenic is
worshipped as God. In the USA, they are placed in
insane asylums. Insane asylums are loaded with people
whom believe they are Jesus, or God, or talk to them.

Science has recently discovered the source of tinitis.
The inner sounds are the same as Radhasoami's hear.

Schizophrenics hear and see and smell and taste things that
are not there. Voices talk to them and instruct them.

A good example is Kirpal Singh in his coded diaries:

encoded manuscripts of Kirpal
contain information on his discussions with
dead gurus. The end of chapter 55:
"Photocopies of sample pages from the coded
Diaries, describing glimpses of his
meetings and conversations with the great Masters
of the Past: here, Guru Nanak,
Kabir and Jesus Christ. Other portions describe
meetings with Buddha, Zoroaster,
Guru Gobind Singh, Baba Jaimal Singh, Rumi,
and others.

Insanity ran through Darshan Singh and now Rajinder Singh
in this lineage.

There are many websites discusssing schizophrenia and mysticism. To find punch in Google ;
kundalini schizophrenia
mysticism schizophrenia
use other keywords with schizophrenia
such as yoga, guru, etc.

http://sanf.wordpress.com/2008/07/20/relationship-beween-schizophrenia-and-mysticism/

SCHIZOPHRENIA AND MYSTICISM: A STRONG BOND

There is a very strong between schizophrenia and mysticism. Many people still don’t believe this and they view both phases of unique neuro functions as insanity and mental disorder.

People who went through schizophrenic stages or conditions also experienced great mystic awareness. The Divine reality is very close to these people because of hallucinations (positive schizophrenia)

In many self reported cases people showed enthusiasm to learn more about spirituality because of their experiences during different schizophrenic stages.

When research was conducted neuro physicians and scientists came to know about the neural cause of spirituality or mysticism and change of brain structure which is same during schizophrenia and mysticism. Many patients recovered from their illness by experiencing mysticism during schizophrenia.

[Nietzsche]

Hmmm I don't see a paranoid schizophrenic in serious bad condition attrac any followers. They can't even talk or think coherently. When parts of your brain stop working one might however get mystical experiences like when there is no brain activity left in near death experiences and one sees light.

[Mike Williams]

"I don't see a paranoid schizophrenic in serious bad condition attract any followers." quote Nietzsche

In the movie , "A Beautiful Mind", the professor was a severe schizophrenic
and won the Nobel Peace Prize.

(Paranoid does not have to preceed the
word schizophrenia.)

Kirpal Singh and Meyer Baba come to mind,
as people you may have heard of whom were
schizophrenic, I believe.

But, the seeker, whom comes across many Gurus and masters, begins to notice very quickly that most 'good' masters are nuts.

Even most 'good' advanced disciples.

Maybe 90% are nuts. The other 10% are like Charan Singh.

The self help teachers are a group by themselves, generally fitting under the category of petty vanity. I am not discussing them.

Someone brought up the name of Jiddo Krishnamurti on another post. Jiddo
was supposed to be the Christ incarnate
come to earth.

He was taught by a kundalini master much as
you people have, to travel the inner planes.
He even wrote a book called The Adventures of Alclone, (or something like that), talking about his inner travels.

He reached very high inner degrees and
then realized exactly what Faquir Chand did.

That the inner planes were mental creations
that did not exist as actual places.

Jiddo Krishnamurti renounced Christhood,
Gurus, yoga, masters and religion.

Jiddo became the greatest Anti Christ the world has ever seen.

He spent the rest of his life debunking
Gurus, yoga, masters and religion.

Some posters here think that people on
this club have not gone very far inward,
or they would realize what the Gurus have said is true.

This is a big mistake. Rather, people here
do not say anything about their inner adventures, because no one would believe them. And, anyone actually going inside
would know for themselves the inner planes
are all mental projections.

The believers on this club have not gotten
to first base. If they ever see the inner
worlds, they would know they are not real.

Oddly enough, it is being reported Gurinder is now saying the same. Gurinder has even said the all the Beas books from the past should be burned.

And, Gurinder is right. People are too smart now days to believe in the old archaic
rhetoric of the past. Radhasoami will have to adapt quickly to a new breed of intelligent seeker.

All religions continually adapt and change what they are saying. Science is on their heals.

The boundary of lies and deception the Guru
relates to the seeker, is only bounded to
the extent science has not moved forward.

The whole Guru game is falling like a house of cards.

The handwriting is on the wall. The Gurus
must start telling the truth, or they will
loose their flocks to common sense.

They must become Faquir Chand like.

[Nietzsche]

The inner plains are not real but this outer plain is real?
And maybe the guru's have had these episodes but lets say Gurinder does not today.

[Mike Wiliams]

"The inner plains are not real but this outer plain is real?"
quote Nietzsche

A person named Tao answered this on another thread
"There is nothing to "see". there is nothing beyond your everyday experiences. there is no inner self, or trandscendental self, or special awareness."
quote Tao

It is true the inner planes are not real,
as even Gurinder admits now, echoing Faquir Chand.

This world is temporal, but it is still very real while it lasts. Only energy lasts forever and can neither be created nor destroyed.

Our bodies, brain and thoughts are all temporal. But, very real.

To use a disassociation technique, or theory, to deny the reality of the physical plane, is to deny pain and suffering in this world.

[gerald grimes]

really fed up to the gills with both god and devil bang their heads together to quit this sorry scheme of things entire and mould it nearer to the hearts desire .... come on beas walas give up the con...or gimme a lift upstairs i had enough of the medley of maya illusions and morass of spiritual catch 22 situations give us immediate inner ascent or bugger off and get a honest job ....cheers all you santies

[tucson]

Three cheers to gerald grimes. Spot on. At the next big satsang/bhandara the crowd should stand up together and say in unison to the guru exactly what gerald said. If he doesn't deliver they should walk out and never come back. Enough of the cult/mind control bullshit business which seems to be more of a mundane career choice than a calling from heaven.

[George]

Brian
the question I have for you is whether you have ever experienced the feeling of a hidden reality during meditation?
I assume you continue to meditate for some reason.
But my question is have you ever experienced this transcental feeling?
You say you had some profound recognition of the universe as a paper bag when imbibing mescalin, but have you any experience out if the ordinary during meditation?

[Nietzsche]

@Mike
Okay okay. I'm reading here and it is certainly interesting to read that Faqir Chand experienced that his followers created his doubles and that he knew nothing about that. So that inner experience might not be something we share with an outer being. But this does not wipe all the visions of ghosts from the table too (where individuality travels beyond death). And also the near death experiences where people have no measurable brain activity but do report seeing things, that is not denied too. So I think you or maybe Faqir Chand is overreacting. On the other hand 99% of the inner experience might be hallucination. And maybe 100% of the inner planes from RS might be hallucination. But I do think or individuality goes on after death carrying our thoughts like or physical body caries these thoughts today. I believe that our thought are intelligible versus the sensible world. Meaning they are not bound by the laws of action and reaction. I 'm pretty sure they will continue in some form.
However I think the book from Faqir Chand is interesting I just don't see why his personal observation should be universal. He has no research program bringing us any kind of acceptable argument. As I read it now it is a very interesting vision that I can learn a lot from. In Jewish tradition all the saints give interesting interpretations of the texts and they are remembered together and next to each other untill someone comes with some verifiable proof and that is not likely. But thanks again for this unique vision.

[Nietzsche]

Perhaps our misunderstanding is in the concept of mind (westerns think mind=brains). If you say that ultimately our thoughts and self are to be abandoned I would agree but not by leaving the fysical body alone.
And it is worth a footnote that nobody not even the satguru understands reality unless they abandon the personal perspective and merge into the non individual.

[Robert Searle]

Mike Williams,

I would be interested in the source of your own quote which goes...

It is true the inner planes are not real,
as even Gurinder admits now, echoing Faquir Chand.

[Roger]

Tara, Tucson, Brian, et. al.,

This statement, regarding the 5 inner planes,

"It is true the inner planes are not real,
as even Gurinder admits now,......"

--Has anyone confirmed that Gurinder stated(admitted), the "inner planes" are not real?

Thanks for a reply. Roger

[Brian Hines]

George, you asked whether I've ever experienced a "hidden reality" during meditation, or an "experience out of the ordinary."

Well, sure. Meditation is unusual, in comparison to our usual sorts of experiences, the way I've practiced it for most of my life. Namely, with eyes closed, hearing and seeing turned off (I usually wear ear protectors that muffle sound and an eyeshade), thinking discursively/sequentially as little as possible.

Repeating a mantra, which is what I continue to do now most of the time (it's just a simple one or two syllable mantra, not the RSSB five word mantra), I've found, and still find, that it can lead to a fresh sort of conscious experience.

But I have no reason to believe that this is supernatural in any way. Neuroscience can explain it as what happens when sensory information is cut down drastically and thoughts are reduced to a minimum -- leading to a diminished experience of "I-ness" or individuality.

I've felt myself being caught up in a seemingly limitless expanse, a dark, silent void that nonetheless is strangely (or not so strangely) pleasant. I like the feeling of not being in control, of letting myself go wherever the mantra takes me. Rather than "steering" the experience, I feel like a hot air balloon that is drifting wherever the wind blows.

This is like "going with the flow" physically, except there is no directionality to it, nowhere, and in a sense, no one, to be going. Again, this is probably all happening within and part of the physical brain.

Yet it also shows, as many books on the brain and meditation point out, that meditation leads the brain into what seem like mysterious places. I'd say a better term is "usually unexplored" places.

[tucson]

Hi George,
I have an old satsangi friend who remains loyal to the RSSB path. He personally heard Gurinder say the inner planes are not actual places but are symbolic of various states of consciousness.

OK, fine, but Charan never ssid that. Who's right, master or sucessor? Neither? Both?

In light of this inconsistency and many others I would not like to be a satsangi and no longer consider myself one although they say once initiated the satguru is bound to see the disciple (jiva) home (Sach Khand/heaven) one way or another, sooner or later, by hook or by crook.

So, I can blaspheme RSSB all I like, eat all the doughnuts made with eggs I want, never meditate, guzzle intoxicants night and day, engage in peculiar extramarital sex acts, cheat on my taxes and still I'm guaranteed liberation. What a deal!!

Now that I think about it...Hey everybody! Get initiated. You can't lose for screwing up and your salvation is guaranteed if the path turns out to be true.

[Mike Williams]

As tucson points out, Gurinder has been stating in
open satsangs the inner planes are not actual places
that exist in reality. Since I have an RS website, I hear
what he is saying from reps. He is also saying Jaimal did not write the letters in Spiritual Letters, that they were writen
by his secretary and the postmaster. I believe my book
proved they could not have been Jaimal's and that is the reason Gurinder is now saying this.

Thoughts and self cannot be abandoned. There is no one to abandon them. Thoughts are real, the self is a mythical
belief in the brain of man. The mind does not exist in
the mystical sense, only the brain. There are mistakenly transposed by most people.

There is no merger into the non individual.

When the self (WHO) drops off, via realization, only pure
thought is left. Pure spontaneous action. But, intelliegence
is used by thought to determine the best course of action.

The taint of self leaves. The self is like a plastic template
we look though that colors all our actions. The self is grease lightening and determines our actions.

When the self (WHO) leaves, it leaves all at once, not in stages. Thoughts can run like wildfire after that, but
the self can no longer stain them.

There is nothing mystical about enlightenment. It's all physical.

Faquir Chand was important because he verified with Sawan
and Kirpal and others what he suspected was true.

That's why Faquir Chand called them criminals.

I do not know if there is some form of life after death. Neither did Chand.

[Nietzsche]

What you are describing is indeed schizophrenia. The common believe among psychiatrists is that the loose of self is what makes the schizo very afraid. But I don't want to continue on this interesting idea that meditation leeds to self induced schizophrenia you seem to proof the case by presenting some mad guru's.

I do have a question about the book from Faqir Chand. It says (blz 11) that in 'Spiritual Gems' and 'Dawn of Light' Sawan says that he is not aware of the experiences of the satsangi's only in extreme cases. I asked for the books and got them but I can't find this text glossing through these books. Is there anyone that knows where exactly Sawan said this (he is not aware of the individual satsangi's experiences). There are other satasangi's in my neighborhood interested in these text and I find this a way to make my case more solid. The case being that Gurinder is a fraud.

[Nietzsche]

@tucson
Lets celebrate the freedom knowing that we let some arrogant guru's tell us the truth while they didn't have a clue.

[Catherine]

The whole Indian experience, the initiation, darshan, being let into an intimate believing sharing community, the concept of the guru... I value that experience. It is a unique and quite graceful approach to belief and faith. So for a while, the experience is more important than being fooled or scammed.

Sometimes, feeling the cold, a person has to throw a thick blanket right over their whole body, obscuring their senses, only to come up for air after almost suffocating.

I agree with Nietzsche that if the concept of most schizophrenia is magical thinking accompanied by paranoia, then letting oneself be taken by many of the meditations and religions is self induced schizophrenia.

[Nietzsche]

@Catherine schizophrenia is taken a little light here. It is a decease accompanied by psychotic episodes that are very frightening. I would call theses guru's schizotypical meaning that they are weird.
The danger I see is that meditation could lead to psychoses but I don't see that being made plausible. That much satsangi's could be called weird or schizotypical therein I do agree.
Also what Brian said some time ago that most satsangi's go in a sort of regression. That is something I observe too. I attribute it to the little self respect, the guild and the mincontroll.
When one gets free from these negative systems then the cold world is a place full of opportunities to really share, not for karma and to really love even if it leads to attachment and to be a better human. Not a dark kal place. I can't understand how anyone can think that by isolation and denial anything can be gained. When we stop gaining we can at the very least try to be human to others.
In a way I think that leaving the cult will result in less freedom because we will have to face reality again.

[Mike Williams]

"I can't understand how anyone can think that by isolation and denial anything can be gained."
quote Nietzsche

I made a long post on schizophrenia and kundalini about two days ago, but accidently placed it on another thread
on this club.

Denial and isolation as stated won't help.
A direct asault on the self (WHO), is the only thing that will. Direct attention on the self, not away from the self. At what exact point does impersonal thought personalize itself ?

I think Faquir Chand was quoted as asking
Sawan if he was aware of his radiant form
in the disciple. Sawan told him no.
Chand asked Sawan and Kirpal and others if
they had power, etc. They said no.

Yet, Kirpal wrote the book Godman, which claims the Guru is all knowing and powerful
in so many words. Off camera Kirpal admitted to Chand it was not so.
Sawan told Chand he now had too many disciples to ever start telling the truth.

Chand called them criminals. I don't remember what book Sawan admitted he was unawre of the disciple, but I do remember that quote.

The schizophrenic can be detached from the self, but he has not lost the self.

[Rohtash]

this all is fake...... radha soami guruji is God and this is none of ur business to comment on him.......... first u shoould see in ur heart...... U r fraud and cheat person and thats why u can say this kind of words about others...... Shame on u all.. whatever radha soami's doing but why u highlighting these things...... this is only because You feel Jealous......

[Nietzsche]

@Mike
Still searching for that quote from Sawan. If anybody knows the page and book? I search through 'spiritual gems'.

[eternaltruth]

Radhasoami Beas Secret History

radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

[amina]

i see this is an old thread but i want to give my few thoughts here, yes radhasoami can induce schizophrenia. i was involved for years but fortunately fall asleep as soon as i close my eyes. this saved me from lunacy i think now. the few times i had experiences i see now i was on road to lunacy. the masters are frauds, very clever frauds and very very dangerous, with good marketing skills.
it is usually good people searching for God that are taken in, this makes the atmosphere in the groups nice but the scene behind it is evil beyond words.
in radhasoami the people are mentally drained. you are like a cow that is milked. it is very dangerous. religion has left at least here in the west and anyway christianity is a dangerous sect as well, so people start searching and end up in wrong places. i hope many read this site and take the good decision to leave.

[Seeker2011]

Case Study ...

Few years ago a very devoted older 'satsangi' - known to be diagnosed with bi-polar when initiated - experienced a full-blown psychotic episode several days after arrival at Dera.

Although quickly hospitalised in Beas within a week this satsangi was deemed sufficiently stable - at least no longer severely manic - to be returned to Dera and there await new long-haul flight arrangements for an immediate return home.

Indeed, this satsangi was told in no uncertain terms that if any sort of fuss was made that there was a high probability of never being allowed to return to Dera. Such also would be the consequence if any other satsangi - even one with a relevant professional background - were to remonstrate on this satsangi’s behalf.

This was probably the most disturbing sequence of events I have ever witnessed in my professional life let alone at the Dera. And, needless to say, had any patient even in the notorious western psychiatric system been subject to such brash treatment it is likely that the said professional &/or institution would have been rightly hung, drawn & quartered.

So, whether RSSB practice may/may not induce &/or be responsible for the onset of psychotic/schizoid episodes in the vulnerable - of which, amongst RSSB initiates, there are known to be many with a psychiatric history - may be debatable. But, one thing perhaps less debatable is that up close & personal RSSB definitely provides a bloody good lesson in what is/is not the essence of compassion!

[Marina]

Well Seeker 2011,

I happened to be at Dera at that time you are talking about.

I don’t think it was the way you put it across i.e., a lack of compassion.

I talked to the person involved when they came back from the Dera hospital.
Apparently they had stopped taking their medication before coming. Maybe with the long flight and stress from travelling, along with the chemical changes from not taking their medication, aggravated the problem and brought on the episode.

I do think the Dera did the correct thing and although I felt very deeply for the person involved, I do think it was the right thing under the circumstances to do. Yes, although they seemed a lot more stabilised, it was evident that they were shook and needed some treatment.

If one chooses to go on medication, I think one has to be responsible. If one wants for whatever reason, to come off medication, it is usually advised to wean off slowly to let the system adjust or else it just throws them chemically off balance big time.

You say:

“So, whether RSSB practice may/may not induce &/or be responsible for the onset of psychotic/schizoid episodes in the vulnerable - of which, amongst RSSB initiates, there are known to be many with a psychiatric history - may be debatable.”

The way I see it, RS practice can actually be a lifeline for people with a psychiatric history. It can open them up to a wider perspective. In fact, I think any spiritual path or teaching does attract a lot of people who have had ‘tough’ lives or those with ‘tough’ emotions to deal with. It seems to lead in some respect to question life more because of this suffering which makes one question things and look deeper.

Also, I think most of us have a psychiatric history and it can be easily missed as a lot of behaviour can seem ‘normal’ just because most people are doing the same thing. It is only when it goes to the extreme that it tends to be noticeable.

None of us in my book are immune.

As to ‘RS can induce schizophrenia’ – nothing can cause this only one’s own thought processes and beliefs. It is all inside our own heads. When one sits silently, a lot of messy thoughts, beliefs and images can be seen/felt due to our own thinking. I love this poem......

*Love Sucks*

To be revealed to oneself when alone is difficult and painful, but the
revelation is contained and protected by one's aloneness.
But to reveal ourselves in each other's presence ( I don't mean merely by words, but by being ) – this is something else entirely.

We will reveal ourselves in each other's presence, no matter what else we ask of love. We may ask safety, comfort, security, happiness, refuge, permanence, but love doesn't care what we ask.

After the first flush of romance it will strip us down. Then love will call up everything within us that is not love, that it may be healed. So to stand in the state of love, and to remain there, is to be inundated and shaken by everything inside that is not love, everything drawn to the healing power of love. A power that does not let us go, does not let us off. It's dizzying. It's frightening. It feels horrible. It has no rules. Its deep sweetness, and its great reserves of calm, exist only in relation to its capacity for revelation. All the "how to" books to make love safe turn to nothing before it.

As one who's run over and over again to romance, so as not to have to endure love, I stand astounded among the astounded, hoping for mercy when the only real mercy is to proceed in the love.

THAT, to reprise the crude headline, is why love really sucks.
Because it is the one state in which you cannot escape yourself.
But an escape from reality, an escape from oneself, is precisely what our culture (especially our popular culture) would have us believe that love is.

And we collaborate in this lie (that's why there's such a market for it); we beg for it to be true, we get furious when it's not – but it's not.

Marina

[Seeker2011]

Correction:

Quote:

'I talked to the person involved when they came back from the Dera hospital.Apparently they had stopped taking their medication before coming. Maybe with the long flight and stress from travelling, along with the chemical changes from not taking their medication, aggravated the problem and brought on the episode.I do think the Dera did the correct thing and although I felt very deeply for the person involved, I do think it was the right thing under the circumstances to do. Yes, although they seemed a lot more stabilised, it was evident that they were shook and needed some treatment."

1. Beas Hospital - not the Dera Hospital
2. The individual was not on any routine / prescribed medication at that particular time & carried with them only a preparation to facilitate sleep.
3. Stabilised? A more correct definition of their condition ... from a professional standpoint ... quite seriously ill & definitely too vulnerable to travel.

So a definition of adequate/ good/ compassionate psychiatric care? Perhaps simply to provide a place of safety; that is where the most vulnerable amongst us feel safe.

So that is when we cast them out!

[Mike Williams]

"The mystical path demands focus, stillness and immersion in the 'now' at all times. Time and effort and often requires a very strict lifestyle as well."
quote old poster

Stillness is not needed. A car will not
run if it is not in gear.

The 'self' cannot act if it is not BELIEVED
in.

A person can have all the selfish ideas they want, but if they don't believe in
a self, no action can take place to wax a self image.

The brain can spin with thought, but action
to wax a self is not possible if the thought
is not personalized.

Therefore, the engine in the car can be running out of control. But, if the
gear box is in neutral, the car cannot
move.

The trick is not to still, or suppress thought.

The trick is to neutralize the belief in a
self.

If a person believes they have a self when they enter meditation, they will believe they have a self when they come out of meditation.

Personalized thought produces selfish
action.

But, is there a WHO that is thinking
our thoughts ?

WHO personalizes the impersonal thoughts
in our heads ?

[Mike Williams]

A Gathering of Zen Buddhists
Names A, B, C and D

A Knock Knock, WHO'S there ?

B WHO'S asking ?

C WHO cares ?

D WHO is a myth.

A Jesus, can't I ever get a straight
answer from you guys ?

[Seeker2011]

Yes:

"The trick is not to still, or suppress thought.

The trick is to neutralize the belief in a
self."

Perhaps herein lies one very good reason why, even after 10/20/30 years of so-called RS practice, RSSB initates still struggle ... and, also, why Master/Management alike are so quick to try & brush under the carpet those - yes, those defined by them as so-called 'marked souls'/members of the great RS/RSSB family - who exhibit any vulnernability &/or fragility vis-a-vis their thought processes!

[Seeker2011]

WHO'S there ? WHO'S asking ? WHO cares ? WHO is a myth... talking about that old 'burnt rope' again? Nice curvy outline but, at the end of the day, absolutely no substance!

Trouble is, that even when giving a straight answer - who can reel their ego in sufficiently to actually listen, or even want to listen? Preferable, maybe, for most to keep hanging-on to the gilt-edged ego-shackles of a RS/RSSB samsara-cell than just let go & fly! Now that - letting-go of it all - might take either a good kick-up-the-.... (a sorta epiphany, world-shocker as part described above) or a whole loada natural-born courage that being Ramana's route, he being one super-brave, heroic, Truth-filled dude

[sneha]

nobody is a fool to follow any path blindly.....they have experienced something...rather whole lotz of things....that is why they follow....if people would have been so innocent then, why jesus was so ill treated....man...use your brains...you can make 1 fool...10 fool 1000 fool 10000 fool 100000 fool but not atleast crores of people following....plz there is a humble request that if you dont follow..its ok...but dont criticize.....

[Mike Williams]

Your brilliant Tara
quote Tara :

A majority of the Indian RSSB following comprises of the poor, gullible, uneducated villagers who will cling on to any Guru-type in the hope of a better tomorrow.

[sneha]

@tara....hi....one thing i would like to put forward is that i m an army officers daughter....niether i m poor nor innocent......i m sorry to say that u have just noticed the poor people...in my circle itself i have many ias officers who are hard core followers.......y cant i compare jesus....wen u can present your views regarding rssb...y cant i express my views ....on top of it...i really respect jesus unlike .....!!!...also....govt is not fooling us....the point is dat we r getting fooled...we all know wats wrong and whats right...we know that govt is corrupt..so in no mattre of case u can compare rssb with govt...dat was actually a wierd comparison.. ne way my frend...and yes...its all bout experience...and wen the trust is based on experience...no body can shake the foundation....:):):):)......i m writing here to clear a myth people have bout rssb.....i have put in best efforts....rest its your wish........:)

[Mike Williams]

its all bout experience
quote sneha

If the inner planes don't exist
and fade to nothing in the end
.... WHO has made the journey
.... to where ?

[Juan]

sneha, you say when the trust is based on experience,... could you please define your experience. Further you say i have put in best efforts,...did your efforts bring in any results, if so what.
Thanks for the reply.

[Marina]

There seems to be a general concensus that being poor and uneducated means being stupid, gullible and ignorant and that people are therefore generally unhappy.

Maybe being poor and uneducated means being less brain washed by the typical educational society, more real, open and more able to think for themselves with less 'imported' knowledge swirling around their heads.

Marina

[sneha]

what all i can say is that experience....niether can i explain nor make u experience...its a path to experience yourself...probably dat would answer ur queries...and yes....first try...and if u dont see anything inside...den its an issue...without trying making such staement would be very unfair...:)

[Catherine]

Education should teach the critical thinking that reduces the chances of being fooled. It also enhances essential academic skills that enable an engineer to safely design a bridge and a doctor to accurately diagnose and treat a disease.

At it's basic levels it teaches literacy which enables people to read what they sign, or write a letter to transfer information and also to calculate amounts so that they are not swindled of their money.

Uneducated people are the most vulnerable.

[Mungos]

quotq Catherine; Uneducated people are the most vulnerable

Moongoes: Yes, and they are exploited by the educated fools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juWZMp0THYw

[NAVIN]

WHY A MAN TOLD THAT HE IS GURU. NO MAN CAN BE A GURU BY IN PRESSURE. WHY A COMMON MAN TOLD HE IS A MESSENGER OF GOD. A SIMPLE KNOWLEDGEABLE MAN DON'T PRESSURIZED THE PEOPLE TO PRAY HIM AS A GURU. GURU IS MADE BY HEART. NEVER TOLD THE PEOPLE THAT CONCENTRATE ON GURU BUT ALWAYS TELL CONCENTRATE ON GOD.

[Moongoes]

And why man has to have caps lock?

[sapient]

“So, whether RSSB practice may/may not induce &/or be responsible for the onset of psychotic/schizoid episodes in the vulnerable - of which, amongst RSSB initiates, there are known to be many with a psychiatric history - may be debatable.”

I would say it is not debatable :) When I was trying to help my relative struggling with scrupulosity ( later also bipolar disorder ), I spoke with so many mentors (senior satsangis) in Petaluma CA, center of RSSB, almost all of them were diagnosed with some form of OCD or schizophrenia and were on medication!! I realized the problem right away and instead of asking the psychotic help , started focusing on trying to distance my relative from that place. Withdrawal worked like charm, my relative didnt go to that place for about an year, didnt talk to those people , and started doing great! He was back to work and family and out of medication too! Suddenly met few satsangis and got involved in their idiotic discussions. My relative is slowly getting back at that place and OCD/delusions are coming back too!

I wish some researcher is allowed to do a research of finding a relationship between schizophrenia and RSSB.

[Marina]

Sapient, if it is not debatable that RSSB induces and is responsible for the onset of psychotic episodes like bi-polar, what is it about RSSB that you think causes bi-polar?

Marina

[Mike Williams]

Good post sapient,

In all sant mat groups there is lots of insanity.

Sant mat is often seen with repression
of sexual energy which can cause psychosis.
Sant mat is kundalini yoga, bring the snake
up the spine. Each chakra has its own sound
and light.

In other groups such as Yogananda
one is taught after meditation to take the energy
back down the spine so you don't fuse your
brain out.

Concentrating on tirsa til will cause
the energy to rise.

Sant mat is self induced insanity with all
the visions and sounds.

I used to think there was a difference
between sant mat visions and insanity.
A fine line of seperation.

There is no fine line, they are one in the same.

In India they become Gurus.

In the USA they are locked up in the nut house.

[Betty]

"Concentrating on Tisra Til will cause the energy to rise"

or

it will cause you to go to snore...and make your neck cramp up.

I see more satsangi's with neck problems and drool stains from hours of sleeping while sitting up. My head use to jerk back when I fell asleep and smash against the wall. Scared my mom half to death, the 3am head smash thing. She finally asked me if meditation wasn't really just another word for sleep.

Most of Petaluma seva folks are INDIAN. There are a few old white boys and girls around, but not many. And they that are remain Peta - loony - ized, they survived the gauntlet of petty kickboxing, and were fudgin nuts to begin with. (except the rich ones, of course)

[Mike Williams]

Hi Betty,

The drug Prozac kills the sexual energy.
That stop mental people from grand delusions.

There are a few dozen areas of the brain relating
to sights and sounds and whatnot.

Sometimes people who get no where with Tirsa Til
can have success with other meditations that work
on other parts of the brain.

But,it is all physical energy. Nothing mystical.

Enlightenment is a physical process in the brain.

That process depersonalizes thought and debunks
the belief in a personal self.

No need for supression of sexual energy in jnani
yoga as Ramana Maharshi explains.

The conscious realization of 'no self' go backwards
into the suconscioous mind and destroys it naturally.

Kundalini yoga blows up the subconscious mind into
consciousness and the person is left confused.

Because they still lack realization of no self.

This may cause insanity. But, if the person realizes
no self then the subconscious becomes a joke.

Nothing the subconscious mind can toss up will
bother the person because they see through the delusion.

Kundalini yoga is old fashioned and completely
unnecessary.

Stilling the mind is a joke. For the jnani it matters
not how fast the mind moves because it can never fool him.

Kundalini yoga is archaic and barbaric.

[Mike Williams]

The Ultimate State of Unknowingness (cont from last post)

Notice the remarkable similarity between what
Ram Chandra said and Faquir Chand.
Quotes from Ram Chandra below;

“Realisation means merging or oneness with the Absolute. In that case no
question of knowledge can ever arise. What that may then be – knowledgelessness –
not knowingness – ignorance or what? In short it must be something like that,
though it may well nigh be impossible to express it in words. Complete ignorance,
as I have put it, may however be nearest to appropriateness”.
(Path of Grace Page 185, Para 2)

It is in true sense the state of realization – where is neither avidya nor
vidya. What is it there then? Neither of the two – a state of perfect latency,
not-knowingness, nor complete knowledgelessness which may roughly be denoted
as the state of Ignorance, just as it is at the age of infancy”. (Wisdom Unfurled Page 28, Para 2)

“Knowledge implies awareness of that which is beyond self. Realisation means merging or oneness with the Absolute”. (Wisdom Unfurled Page 29, Para 1)
Making a stunning statement that the basic property of the Divine is ignorance, he stated that “If I had proceeded along the path of Realisation through books, I could never have come up to that level of Ignorance, which is the basic property of the Divine. It is only the practical life that
17
is worth having. We should not only know what Realisation is but should try to attain it as well”. (Wisdom Unfurled Page 31, Para 1)
Making things more clear that, one who has realized develops a special will he stated that, “Most of the scholarly saints have defined the state of realisation in numerous odd ways, but to me it appears that so far as it can be defined, it is not realisation. It is really a dumb state which is beyond expression.
Feeling or observing luminosity within or outside is not realisation at all. During the early period of my abhyas, I often felt and witnessed luminosity. But that not being the goal, I proceeded on under the watchful support of my master. Really it is a tasteless state – unchanging and constant. There is no charm, no attraction, and no anandam in the popular sense of the word. It can more appropriately be described as ‘sang-e-benamak’ (i.e., a lump of salt from which saltishness has been taken away). One having attained the state of realisation develops an unfailing will in the spiritual sphere”. (Wisdom Unfurled Page 38, Para 3)
Master asserts that “Realisation has now, today, become very easy because of the presence of the Divine Personality. The thought of people generally does not go beyond the point of liberation, which they take to be the final limit of human approach. But that is a wrong idea. As a matter of fact, liberation is one of the lowest attainments on the divine path, hence it is just like a toy for a child to play with. Beyond that there is yet a lot to be achieved. The infinite ocean lies still ahead, which is but a limitless expanse. Have your eyes fixed upon That and
18
That alone; and go on and on to trace it out”. (Wisdom Unfurled Page 40, Para 2)

Master describing the ideology of his system stated that “it is so plain
that often for this very reason it is not so well understood by people who
are under the impression that Realisation is the most difficult job which
requires persistent labour for lives and ages. It may however be difficult
to those who proceed on, loaded with their own confused conceptions of Reality,
and adopt complicated means for their achievement. As a matter of fact Reality,
which one aspires for, is so simple that its very simplicity has become a veil to it.
A simple thing can be achieved by simple means alone. Therefore, for the realisation
of the simple, it is only the simplest means that can ensure success”.
(Showers of Divine Grace Page 73, Para 1)

[Mike Williams]

Largest contributors to Joh McCain and
Barrack Obama in 2008 campaign.

3 of top five of for each were
Goldman Sachs
J. P. Morgan
Citigroup

All owners of our privately held
Federal Reserve Bank.

Why do they like BOTH candidates ?

"No matter who you vote for,
you vote for one of us."
Joseph Stalin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs

[PUNISH SADANA]

PEOPLE LIKE TUSCAN AND ROGER ARE A REALLY FRUSTRATED LOT.BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO FOLLOW THE SANT MAT PATH AND HAD SELF CONTORL THEY ARE CRITISCISING TEACHINGS OF RSSB

[PUNISH SADANA]

mr tuscan and roger,you should have self control ,discipline to follow sant mat

[punish sadana]

ms tara u should know that rssb is not a new religion ,MASTER just preaches what great gurus/saints from different religions like christianity,hinduism ,islam sikhism and many other haved already taughts us.i think ms tara doesn,t belive in god which she should(indirectly she is criticising every religion)

[Juan]

Punish Sadna,

MASTER NOT ONLY just preaches what great gurus/saints from different religions like christianity,hinduism ,islam sikhism and many other have already taughts us.BUT HE ALSO TEACHES YOU THE HIDDEN TRUTH, WHICH THE OTHER RELIGIONS ARE NOT CAPABLE OF.

[nietzsche]

Tara said:
'showing people a subtle way out of their false wonderlands is a good start'

There is something I would like to add to that. The hardcore RSSB demonises the world. They say the world is the place ruled by Kal and that you have to go to the master for the good thing. Right?

Now look what happens and yes I am a close witness. People who need help with their mental disorders (I mean people that are really sick) do not go to the mental healthcare system that could help them. They are afraid of them and start doing simram like hell when they have to talk to them. They do not trust these psychotherapists and do not let them in on their thoughts. Right? The result is that these people do not get the help that they need and circle around in their mental problems year after year.
Now they also do not get the mental help that they need from the master. He is not able to organize a hospital for all his satsangi's with mental problems all over the world. So the end result is that by demonizing the world as Kal the people that are especially sensitive to this demonisation are isolated from mental healthcare and suffer much more than they had to. And THAT is the truth EVIL in my opinion.

[punish sadana]

ms tara i have never said that rssb gurus are GOD,they are teachers or masters.like why there are teachers in school,everything is written in books.teachers are there to make us understand the books.u just read the book :origin of christianty ,it also tells us about hidden truth.(it is not printed by rssb press).i think u are totally mistaken that rssb people tell us not to go to healthcare services when we are ill'.

[nietzsche]

It would be a good thing is RSSB masters would tell their followers to go to a mental health care institute if they hear scary voices or if they are paranoid or if they are confused. That way the mental with positive delusions like bells will stay and the ones with negative illusions will seek help. It would be better if the master would not create illusions at all. He should not act like omnipotent or God. He should not encourage the imagination of his followers. He should ask his folowers to stop imaging things. To seek objective knowledge to check and double check facts and to be critical. He is not encouraging critical thinking at all. In fact he is confusing people trying to shake their certainties. Inducing psychoses.

[nietzsche]

Well I'm not under the illusion that anyone who saw the miracles with his own eyes will rethink what he saw. I'm merely addressing the ones that have the negative hallucinations and that seek release. It is a fact that if you are in a group that stimulates the believe in inner experiences that the risk for psychoses gets higher. That is a simple conclusion from facts. If people learn to ignore their inner experience than the chance on something negative ruling their lives is smaller. That is something we learn from scientific investigation.
On the other hand if you come from the blue and suddenly experience hallucinations and get confused because your brain works abnormal than there is a lot of attraction coming from groups that treat inner experiences as real. Yet the best help comes from groups that learn you to ignore them. So we see that science in his effort to find the best way to help these people comes on a different treatment than the saints in Agra thought was the best for these people.
Confronted with the facts and scientific evaluation of every kind of treatment in the end the most gods will fly and the remaining will go through a process of scientific enlightenment leaving less area for the religion and more area for proven methods of treatment. It is only a matter of time and RSSB will have to adapt in the end or it will vanish. The other option is to close the gates even more in a total sectarian way but with the internet that is not the easiest way if at all possible ;)
That Gurinder is encouraging his people to read the internet is a reasonable thing. He has no other option but it WILL change RSSB from hardcore to something else.
And yes I do now and than see miracles happen like that last parking spot being for me by the grace of the guru. On the other hand if I take a longer time I see that my co workers have as much luck as I do ;) But it is a positive induced hallucination haha.

[Zero Thustra]

who does this little pseudo psycho tara think she is some authority on RSSB teachings..?

She comes onto phony intellect sites such as these as if she is the be all and know it all of all RSSB tenets and principles and as if she is the spokesperson and authority for the RSSB guru or faith..

She knows nowt about what the RSSB head or guru is to any disciple let alone what relevance he has to her own forlorn lost soul...

She is in no position to declare with such emphatic non existent lack of any absolute knowledge as to who or what the guru's personal relationship is with anyone.. let alone her own deluded position with respect to her relationship with such a being or even herself.

[Visitor]

Tara - 'As you may know, in Sikhism, the Granth Sahib clearly states that there will be no living Guru after Guru Gobind Singh.'

Dear tara it is not written in Guru Granth Sahib.It is written in dasham granth which is also known as kachi baani.The Dasham granth can't be recited from Golden temple.Even during the time of hardliners (Bhindrawala,et al) the ritual was followed strictly.The Sikh scholars and bodies have decided voluntarily that nothing will be discussed on this matter further.I don't want to go in further detail but please put the right facts.

[nietzsche]

He this is interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sant_Mat

It's about Sant Mat. The saints that where before RSSB and Sikh. Its all about surat shabd yoga bought by saint like Faqir Chand and Devi Sahab.
Reading it I discovered the huge difference between the rule based RSSB people that fear they do something wrong and the Sants that encourage you to be a better human, to not eat food that causes karma. I mean they explain the eggs rule and surely under circumstances they would allow exceptions when human health is important. Nature is not about humans and we do not hold a right on the animal but without us a lot of animal would not be here. We should at least treat them with respect.
Do you learn all that when you blindfolded follow the rule 'do not eat eggs'? Do you understand bakshi from stupid rules or fear based threats with hell?
So much difference between Sant Mat and RSSB. Where did it go wrong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Devi_Sahab

[nietzsche]

While we are on vegetarianism this might be interesting.
I was taught that it is better to kill a bird than it is to kill an ape because there are less elements in the bird.
Now think of that. If there is a soul do you think the soul of the bird suffers less than the soul of the ape because he has less elements?
If you were a cow and you could chose between dying without panic in a fast way or being shred to peaces by a lion what would you prefer?
Would cows be here at all if there where no humans that treated them with respect and gave them an easy dead because of the flesh?
Why is it better to kill a potato if it has a soul than it is to kill a cow?
It all comes down to elements. The potato has less element or less chakra's so less advanced souls but the scientist Bose already showed that plants do have a kind of a nerve system. Everything here seems to be food for something else. Treat it with respect. That is missing in bio industry. And I seriously wonder if the soul of a human is further advanced than the soul of an ape. Perhaps it lived longer and perhaps it has gone through an evolution as a soul. I can't find why it is better to kill a less advanced model than it is to kill a more advanced model. Apart from the fact that if I had the choice I would love to live a life as an dolphin or a lion or gorillah so why less advanced? Because it has no language like us? No overdeveloped logical brain? They have nicer swimming tales!
would it really be such a bad karma to kill a jesus if you compare it to killing a child that did not advance very far in life? This whole argument of the more advanced bringing you more bad karma when you kill them seems pretty stupid to me.
But okay have a happy life killing the smallest thing around. I will just eat what I need for food and will give up finding ethics to justify that.

[nietzsche]

Yeaahh there seems to be some kind of a difference between a potato and a dog. But still I love my potato just as much! Don't kill it!

But back to the egg ( :)). I drink milk every day and that is not forbidden by RSSB. Still the cows that produce it will suffer all there is to suffer from bio industry. Why is milk allowed and not eggs? The eggs I eat come from virgin chicken by the way they have never seen a male.
Is it perhaps because the rule system was developed in India 1000 years ago? Shouldn't the rule system adapt to the rest of the world to have any ethical sense? But of cause not. RSSB holds the same rules that worked a thousand years ago and expects them to be eternal. Crap :(

[nietzsche]

You could ask why to make such a point of this egg rule? Well that is because the rule is unhealthy! An egg contains valuable food resource just like milk. A cow has a long digestive system that produces vitamins that we somehow became dependent on throughout the evolution. To live without them asks for a lot of vegetarian knowledge and cooking skills. Now I don't have these skills and by God I have tried but I just can't cook and nobody in my environment can. So I miss out on valuable vitamins that are the potential cause of mental disorders. I'm talking about vitamin B and Omega 3. A brain needs lots of oxygen to stay healthy and the bloodvains have to stay smooth with Omega 3 fatty stuff. Now that means eating fish or algae. Fish eating is much easier.
On top of that physical exercise is top important to prevent deseases like Alzheimer. Rich oxygen full blood is pumped to the brains during exercising.
I think I will start my 21 century religion that consists of rich good food with new philosophy and physical exercise. Than perhaps a little yoga or even surat shabd yoga for the serious followers. Or wait that system is already there and it is called the medical support system. Its temples are the hospital and its preachers are the doctors. Don't believe everything they say by the way but we will get much healthier and feel better by listening to most of their 21 century teachings.

[Moongoes]

I am lacto vegetarian and am seriously weight lifting in old timer stuff like Sandow,Maxick, Strongfort and seriously do ashtanga vinyasa and i also run and in the past i did alot of high hill mountain biking and am feeling very good on this diet.
But i immediately understand if someone else need meat or egg or anything else for themselves. But you don't need Beas to change that or any other ashram or so called Guru you have your own life in your own hands. But this with Beas about eggs is almost in every ashram or in every yoga book so i see this diet as an idea so take it or leve it no big deal..

[punish sadana]

People like tara should read guru granth sahib and rssb books in detail first and then Comment.the last Comment she posted regarding vegeteranism tells about her psychological state.she should[NOT RSSB PEOPLEL]consult psychiatrist asap

[tucson]

I avoided eggs for decades according to RSSB dictates, but I never understood clearly the rationale behind the edict. I just went along with it.

Yes, by eating a fertilized egg one is depriving a chicken (or other bird) from the opportunity to grow to the full potential of its chickenhood crowing endlessly (not just at dawn)or engaging in pecking, clucking, cackling, foraging, mating and other chicken activities.

Being responsible for this kind of deprivation could lead to an unbearable karmic load which may retard spiritual advancement for perhaps three (3) addional lifetimes of suffering in this cesspool of a creation known as Pind...the lowest in the grand scheme of things.

I also understand that in ayurveda and other Indian traditions eggs are considered rajasic food that incites passions, disturbs mental equilibrium and stimulates aggression. But I have never noticed this effect. Nor have I noticed a pattern of erratic, aggressive behavior in those who have recently consumed eggs.

Can anyone explain to me why one must avoid eating unfertilized eggs where no chicken's development has been thwarted?

[tucson]

I avoided eggs for decades according to RSSB dictates, but I never understood clearly the rationale behind the edict. I just went along with it.

Yes, by eating a fertilized egg one is depriving a chicken (or other bird) from the opportunity to grow to the full potential of its chickenhood crowing endlessly (not just at dawn)or engaging in pecking, clucking, cackling, foraging, mating and other chicken activities.

Being responsible for this kind of deprivation could lead to an unbearable karmic load which may retard spiritual advancement for perhaps three (3) additional lifetimes of suffering in this cesspool of a creation known as Pind...the lowest in the grand scheme of things.

I also understand that in Ayurveda and other Indian traditions eggs are considered rajasic food that incites passions, disturbs mental equilibrium and stimulates aggression. But I have never noticed this effect from eating an egg. Nor have I noticed a pattern of erratic, aggressive behavior in others who have recently consumed eggs, but maybe I am simply unobservant or live in a culture where such behavior is not recognized as such.

Anyway, I just don't see the harm in eating eggs. No chicken is hurt in the process. In fact, I see eggs as a great nutritional choice for those who choose to avoid eating animals.

Can anyone explain to me why one must avoid eating unfertilized eggs?

Please don't say that in eating unfertilized eggs one may accidentally consume a fertilized one. Please.

[Juan]

Tucson wrote,

I avoided eggs for decades according to RSSB dictates, but I never understood clearly the rationale behind the edict. I just went along with it.

Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh is very clear on this subject:

I know that infertil eggs have no life, and from that standpoint you can justify it. But when you start with that, you start with the other also. You get the taste of that and there will be no end to it. If you just start innocently with a kiss, you do not know where you will end; so then you start justifying things.It is better to be strict, and when we are strict about a certain thing, there is no question of compromising. We remain strict, but if we become just a little loose in this way or that way, we do not know where it leads to. Besides, the eating of even an infertile egg, hardens the mind by exciting animal instincts, which are antagonistic to spiritual progress.

Further in response to a question; If an initiate strays from the vegetarian diet, he says; If a child commits a mistake, even a little crime, the father does not hand him over to the police, but the father never hesitates to spank him, to beat him or to punish him in some way in order to set him right, to reform him, but he will never hand him over to the police or to the jail authorities. So, if we fall, we do not go back but we have to pay for that.

Don Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the PLM says that we should be always positive thinkers, and the positive thoughts are; that the initiates are in the safe zone, they can stray from the vegetarian diet, if they wish, but the biggest problem is for those who are not initiates, as they will be given birth according to their karmas in lower species.

[nietzsche]

But the cows! Can someone explain why we are allowed to torture cows? We deprive them of their old days. We drink their milk that makes us like agressive lustfull animall. Espescially I start to become a unbearable baby after drinking milk. I start yelling and sucking on everything all because of the milk. Why am I allowed to make such bad karma?
Now a smart ass would say that in India the cows are holy but see where that leads us. Because they don't eat the cows there is no reason to feed them so they almost die from hunger. All because we want milk. Terrible sinners we are.
And if eggs cause lust then tell me what hormons are in there and how they stimulate the libidio. Chinees believe shark fins cause lust and there are even more bizar convictions. Yes eggs cause libido if you believe in it. There is an awfull amound of bullshit in what people believe. Check the facts give links to reasearch that showed that eggs caused libido. I seriously doubt it but who knows. I certainly don't believe it because granny knows it or patanjala or vedas or bible or beatles etc.

[tucson]

Juan wrote:

"Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh is very clear on this subject:

I know that infertil eggs have no life, and from that standpoint you can justify it. But when you start with that, you start with the other also."

--What, like marijuana leads to heroin addiction? I guess if someone eats an egg they are at risk of becoming sacred cow eaters or even cannibals?

"Besides, the eating of even an infertile egg, hardens the mind by exciting animal instincts, which are antagonistic to spiritual progress."

--What property do you imagine that is found in an unfertilized egg that would harden the mind and excite animal instincts? It has been found that eggs do not even harden the arteries. I guess if you ate no protein all, that would be the best solution to the animal instinct problem. You would be too weak to get an erection.

".. the father does not hand him over to the police, but the father never hesitates to spank him, to beat him or to punish him in some way in order to set him right, to reform him.

--The father beats the kid because he ate an egg? Call child protective services immediately.

"... the initiates are in the safe zone, they can stray from the vegetarian diet, if they wish, but the biggest problem is for those who are not initiates, as they will be given birth according to their karmas in lower species."

-- Thou shalt be condemned to hell for unfertilized egg eating.

Sorry for the ridicule, but none of what you said makes any rational sense to me at all. Never did.

[nietzsche]

Hmm I must admit that I found research that eggs stimulate libido. thanks for clearing that up! Now I don't see much wrong with libido but I do see something wrong with the culture of exploitation on the internet. And I'm thinking of the poor guy that told us his libido was health by Gurinders presence. Actually when Gurinder was here someone stepped up with the same kind of problems might be the same guy.
http://www.thinknatural.com/articles.php?id=10522

If someone could clear up the milk issue. I am seriously asking why RSSB is lacto vegetarian only.

@Tara how do we communicate an email address I would like to exchange findings in health related subjects! But my main findings are that it doesn't matter that much what we eat because the body adapts to a lot. I know of a woman that only ate chips (potatoes) and lived on, still does. There is also hypotheses that the cooking of food was the start of the growing of our brains. The energy that was not wasted in digestion went to the grey matter. It is backed up by the observation that shorter digestion ways accompany bigger brains in the evolution of very early human like creatures to the sapiens we are today. The appearance of cooking tools accompanies this too!

[nietzsche]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2058739/The-myth-raw-meat-produces-aggression-Study-claims-cooked-variety-boosts-energy.html

[nietzsche]

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/689/The_Meat_and_Testosterone_Connection.aspx

This article shows some of my main problems with a strict vegetarian diet the I have. I know we have to maintain normal testosterone to stay non aggressive and stress free. It is a mistake to think that low testosterone makes you calmer!
My strict vegetarism resulted in stress and fast irritation. I feel much better now I take some supplements and I seriously feel that I should now and then eat chicken or bean soup with flesh. If you take a little meat than your testosterone levels will be healthier and you will do better at sitting in meditation :) Also there is a ethical difference between a little meat and a lot.
About the sliding scale I find that the need for meat disappears often and it does not progress at all in my case.
When you do physical exercise you have to be even more careful not to run low on essentials. So if you move a muscle now and than think careful abut your food. If you cook with sesame etc. these problems might not arise but you have to be a very good cook.
I hope I can restart my training for the half marathon later this year. I did already learn how careful I have to be with my muscle and food intake. I had some injuries.

[tucson]

Tara, I enjoy your comments also.

Juan mentioned that Charan Singh said, "I know that infertil(e) eggs have no life, and from that standpoint you can justify it. But when you start with that, you start with the other also. You get the taste of that and there will be no end to it."

--I guess Charan felt that eggs are like marijuana leading to heroin addiction in that if you eat an egg the next thing you know you will find yourself eating a sacred cow or resorting to cannibalism.

Then Juan stated that Charan said, "If a child commits a mistake, even a little crime, the father does not hand him over to the police, but the father never hesitates to spank him, to beat him or to punish him in some way in order to set him right, to reform him, but he will never hand him over to the police or to the jail authorities."

--The child is beaten and punished for eating an egg? I think it is the father who needs to be handed over to the police or child protective services.

The prohibition against eggs seems inconsistent. There is also potential for abuse of cows in the production of milk products as well. And then there is the problem with wearing leather shoes, belts, etc.

You can't have cheese with rennet but you can wear a leather jacket or sit in a leather chair?

What about honey and stealing from the hard-working bees?

Seems to me satsangis should be vegans and avoid animal products altogether.

What do you think Juan?

[Moongoes]

Tucson: Seems to me satsangis should be vegans and avoid animal products altogether.

Moongoes: Yo Tucson i know what you are sayin i also came to one point in my life when i wanted to stop looking at every product what ingredients are so i decided to go on raw food to quit complication but in the same day i went to some shop to buy oranges and i was blown away with message that they content some E on their skin but i didn9t even try to find which E was i just got a clue that i need to quit complicating. But guess what now i am on this so called typical yoga or lacto diet and have no problems either with health either with looking on ingredients cause you know even if i ate meat i would probably look into ingredients to get good product. I think RSSB have what they have i think you should decide for your self what to eat or not and not what RSSB says.Generaly i don't eat eggs but i will not use glasses to find their traces.

[Juan]

Tucson writes,

I guess Charan felt that eggs are like marijuana leading to heroin addiction in that if you eat an egg the next thing you know you will find yourself eating a sacred cow or resorting to cannibalism.

....Well his main purpose was to convince that he was right, as he also said -that if you just start innocently with a kiss, you do not know where you will end; so then you start justifying things. It is better to be strict, and when we are strict about a certain thing, there is no question of compromising.

The child is beaten and punished for eating an egg? I think it is the father who needs to be handed over to the police or child protective services.

....What Charan Singh meant was that an initiate (child) would not descend by getting birth in a lower specie, even if his karmas were bad, whereas a person not initiated by a True Master can be descended to a lower specie according to his karmas.

Seems to me satsangis should be vegans and avoid animal products altogether.

....Don Gurinder Singh Dhillon is taking the satsangis in this direction and all his efforts are to make the satsangis True Gurmukhis.
In a recent newsletter there is a brief guide to food products & ingredients where they have given a long list of Non-Vegetarian ingredients which should always be avoided and Ingredients which can be from either vegetarian or non-vegetarian sources, and some vegan websites.I can scan the Newsletter next week, if you wish so. Further the satsangis are alerted “When in doubt,
don’t eat it.”

What do you think Juan?

.....IMO, RSSB masters are doing perfectly well to meet their targets.If not all, nearly all the satgurus in this business are doing the same way. After all they have right to make money power and a comfortable/luxurious living.

[punish sadana]

Ms tara before posting any Comment firstp read guru granth sahib and rssb books in detail.killing animal for satisfying ur taste buds is inhuman.isntit