How to hold on when religious belief lets go

Today I got an email from someone who reminds me of me, just a lot younger.

He speaks of losing confidence that the religious organization I was a member of for over thirty years, Radha Soami Satsang Beas, is what he once considered it to be. But this loss of a belief hasn't yet been balanced by a gain of...what?

I've come to the conclusion that the RSSB movement in general doesn't have what it takes to be called a 'Science' (as they call it.) It does not stand up to rigorous questioning, and is not wiling to share experiences, nor listen to others who might have gone wrong somewhere during their experiment.

It seems people are just satisfied with that association with RSSB, and they belive that this association gives them a certification of being an honest and morally upright individual, all of which I feel is total bullshit.

I don't know why, maybe its my upbringing, I feel scared that I'm losing something here... maybe my beliefs...and moving towards the agnostic category...which eventually leads to being an atheist.

Now I'm just a student, and I do not have extensive reading in these areas, so I do not have anything else to fall back to apart from science and technology. Sometimes I feel I should just take a plunge into this philosophy, maybe it will work. Maybe I'm one of a tiny bit of those on the end of the bell curve.

Please help me out. I need something to hold on to.

Absolutely. Agreed. We all need something to hold on to.

What that something is will be different for everybody. All I can do is share some thoughts about how I've handled the initially disorienting feeling of letting go of a long-cherished belief system that used to root me in some seemingly solid meaning-of-life ground.

These ideas rambled around my psyche while I was riding my Burgman 650 maxi-scooter to a blogging-friendly coffee house in downtown Salem, where I am now. So I'll go with the two-wheeled flow and use that as a jumping-off point for my response to the email message.

Aloneness. There's a difference between being alone and feeling lonely. I never feel lonely on my scooter, even though I always ride by myself. That's what life is, really: a one-person ride. We share our living with others, but they aren't living our life, nor are we living theirs.

On a scooter or motorcycle it's evident that there aren't many others like you on the road. Most people ride around in cars, enclosed in what biker types call "cages." This is akin to religiosity, since the vast majority of humans cling to some sort of organized religious belief.

So it's important to feel comfortable being yourself, of not conforming with the crowd, of doing what seems right to you even if it means being part of a distinct churchless minority. Motorcycle and scooter riders in the U.S. often exchange a "biker wave" when passing to show solidarity.

In effect that's what we're doing now on this blog -- sharing thoughts about how to move through life outside of a religious cage. We're alone, yet not lonely.

Connection. I don't feel lonely on my scooter because I'm so closely connected to reality. When I'm not hemmed in by the sides, floor, and roof of a car, the world is much more with me. I feel the actual temperature of the air, not what a heater or air conditioner has made it to be. I feel the bumps in the road, and put my feet on the ground when I come to a stop.

Similarly, discarding a dogmatic belief system allows the world to be experienced much more directly. We aren't continually filtering events through a conceptual structure. "This is God's will." "That must have been my karma." "How sinful!" "Ah, a miracle!" Things and events are what they are (albeit as interpreted by our mind/brain, which is unavoidable), not as what a certain theology proclaims them to be.

I find that what I lose by not feeling connected to an unseen imaginary divinity is vastly more made up by the increased connection I now feel to the natural world and other people. Not feeling special any more, no longer part of a group with a supposedly favored relationship to God, I can go anywhere and do anything simply as a human being living a simple human life.

Risk. When I drive my car, I feel safer than when I ride my scooter. Because I am. Air bags, seat belt, four wheel stability, a bunch of metal between me and a collision. Out in the open on two wheels, I'm constantly aware that what stands between me and a serious accident, or even death, is... nothing.

And that, of course, is exactly the case when I'm driving my car. Or sitting in a coffeehouse. Or lying in bed. Or doing anything. No one gets out of life alive. Death happens -- that's a 100% guarantee. So I enjoy the reminder of mortality that reaches me every time I put on my helmet, turn the key, and start my scooter up.

In monetary investing, usually risk and return are considered to be complementary. Meaning, the more risk you're willing to take on, the greater a return you can potentially receive. People typically don't get rich by putting all of their money in a savings account and watching the (currently) pitiful interest accrue.

Ditto with enjoying a rich life, full of meaning. Religions offer safety in the form of a guarantee -- yes, a fraudulent guarantee, but most people in the world fall for it. They claim that if someone accepts certain beliefs and carries out certain actions, he or she will enjoy eternal bliss in the company of God or some other form of divinity.

That promise makes this life seem like a passing shadow, compared to the Sun of Ultimate Reality. Only problem is, there's no sign of that Sun. It's existence has to be taken on faith.

However, true believers mistake an idea of reality for the really real thing. They're so eager to obtain a risk-free return on their meaning-of-life investment, they forget that a guaranteed deal is almost always going to be either: (1) not what it seems to be, or (2) paltry in comparison to what can be gained by taking on more risk.

I get hugely more pleasure out of riding my scooter than in driving my car. Risk and reward typically go hand in hand. Surfing a twenty foot wave is going to have more fun-value than coasting in a one-foot breaker. Also, more risk.

It takes courage to forsake religion. In the beginning it will feel risky to head out on the road of life without all the safety equipment promised by theological dogma. "You're saved from hellfire (or bad karma) if you only do such and such, and believe in this and that." Questioning the sales pitch leaves you to your own devices.

Having fun. Exploring new roads. Seeing unexplored territory. Being willing to take on some existential risk in exchange for living life a lot more fully.

Uncertainty. I'll end on a related note, because uncertainty is a close relative of risk. Life is risky, and life is uncertain. So is any afterlife, if such exists. We just don't know. We don't know what will happen in the next moment, much less what will occur up until the end of our life and, potentially, beyond.

People who are comfortable with uncertainty are in accord with a basic premise of the scientific method: nothing is 100% certain. Even the best-proven theory or law of nature always can be disproved. Knowledge continually marches on. It doesn't come to a stop at a brick wall of certainty. Only religions claim, "Thus saith the Lord. End of story."

I wrote about this recently in "Keep open a crack in your belief system."

So living in touch with reality requires that we remain open to the possibility that whatever we fervently believe to be true, isn't. Otherwise truth could smack us in the face and we'd pretend that we didn't feel a thing.

If you're absolutely sure that God exists, erase the absolutely in your mind. Ditto if you're absolutely sure that God doesn't exist. Double ditto for any other belief that you don't see yourself ever letting go of, or modifying.

Loosen your hold. Lighten your dogmatism. Lessen your certainty.

Riding a motorcycle or scooter requires an unfocused sort of focus. Meaning, you don't know where or when something unexpected (and unwanted) could come from. Ahead of you. Behind you. From a side street. Bushes along the road. Even from the sky (I've had some pretty big birds swoop down as I was riding along, which definitely produced a startle response).

When I was driving our Toyota Prius a few years ago, a deer ran out of a field along Liberty Road, not far from our home, and banged head on into the right side of the car. There's still a small dent in the door panel. Now, when I ride my scooter along Liberty I tend to focus on the right side of the road when I get to that field.

But it's equally likely that a deer could jump out from the field on the left side. My prior experience has conditioned me to believe in a falsity, that what happened once is likely to happen again. Knowing this, I make a conscious effort to remain open to what is actually there, not what I believe might be there.

This is the best way to move along a highway, whether on two or four wheels. And it also is the best way to move through life: remaining uncertain about what will pop up next, while being confident that whatever it is, you can deal with it appropriately.

We're alone, yet also connected. Life is risky and uncertain, yet this is what makes life so fulfilling, interesting, and meaningful.

Comments

[Bharat Bhushan]

It is again a beautiful depiction of 'now' and 'here'. I liked this post.

[dman]

I'd like to repeat what Tara just said.."Beautifully stated."
I'd also like to share something I've noticed and also heard about from a psychologist who visited our class: How we manage our errors and mistakes makes a whole lot of difference in how we percieve the world.
In Asian culture, there is a general intolerance for mistakes and risks(not violations which are done knowingly, but genuine mistakes). In schools, in our personal lives...its all played very safe by our teachers and parents. Our mistakes were punished as far as I remember. Perhaps this is the reason why we in Asian regions are inclined towards looking at life through a distorted lens of some theology, to find an explanation that has a high level of acceptance.
Letting go of this lens, being comfortable with uncertainity...alone and connected..
Thanks to you Brian, I feel I'm free from the cage.

[Robert Searle]

Some people may, or may not know that Kirpal Singh had a coded diary. He would use it to ask certain "sants" specific questions about the higher regions. If they came up with the wrong answers it was a certainty from Kirpals experience, and understanding that they have not reach the true higher regions!!
See my blog..

http://thoughtsandvisions-searle88.blogspot.com/2010/09/inner-experiences-of-kirpal-singhand.html

[Yash Sethi ( Ferozepur Punjab )]

Religion will always be matter of Pure belief than true Science ( how many words or Books one may say / write but will end up in silence )

( He walks without feet , he does with hands )

As always say East is FAITH Based and West is Logic Based. YASH PAL SETHI

[Brian Hines]

dman, congratulations. That said, I didn't mean to imply that it's possible to be free of all cages -- just the most constricting ones. Neuroscience is clear on the fact that we don't perceive reality as it is (whatever that could mean) but as the human brain/mind processes it to be.

Our past experiences interact with present observations and experiences to create our sense of reality. This is great news, because it means that as we focus differently on the present moment, the foundation for future experiencing also is being altered. So we do indeed "create our own reality" -- just not in any sort of mystical or supernatural way.

[Dogribb]

RSSB is another attempt at expanding yourself,being apart of something bigger than yourself,meeting your needs and happiness.It failed as many things do.Not such a bad thing.
Buy a Scooter ,grow a beard and start Blogging...lol

[Account Deleted]

Organized religion always had and will have its drawbacks. even unorganized religion will have it with more permutations and combination of Mind

If one burns his fingers with boiling milk , it does not mean the milk is at fault

Yash Pal Sethi , Ferozpur , Punjab

[Mike Williams]

Hi Robert Searle,
Kirpal screwed up quite a bit. here is
a little.

Take a book like Kirpal Singh's 'Baba Jaimal Singh, A Great Saint', page 44. Kirpal says, " Jaimal Singh was making speedy inner headway...once he told Swami Ji of his ready access to Dasam Dwar." Then Kirpal notes a conversation between Swami Ji and Jaimal on Jaimal's inner progress . This whole story by Kirpal is made up off the top of his head and all other meetings and conversations between Swami Ji and Jaimal .
..........................
Sounds incredible, but there is nothing in history anywhere to show Jaimal ever met Swami Ji face to face, not alone ever talked to him. None of Swami Ji's family ever mentions Jaimal meeting Swami Ji. To make matters worse, other historians quote Kirpal as if all these meetings and conversations are true. Anything you ever read or hear about Jaimal meeting Swami Ji seem completely manufactured by vested parties .
..........................
Also, Kirpal manufactures conversations between Jaimal, Chachaji, Radhaji and Salig Ram. Kirpal tells how much Radhaji, Chachaji and Salig Ram respect Jaimal and heap praises on him. Radhaji in these conversations gives Jaimal Swami Ji's red turban and prayer mat after she and Chachaji acknowledge Jaimal's greatness. Kirpal has Radhaji calling Jaimal "The Lord of Sat Lok". It's interesting Kirpal quotes Radhaji as saying Swami Ji left the turban for Jaimal before he died. But, Kirpal notes this conversation as talking place in 1890. This means Jaimal had not been to Soami Bagh, Agra in 12 years. Kirpal definitely infers this. Swami Ji died in 1878. Sure took Radhaji a hell of a long time to give the turban to Jaimal!
..............
Kirpal has Chachaji actually asking Jaimal to sit on a gaddi ! See page 59 Kirpal's Jaimal book,1973 edition. Then Chachaji, Gharib Das (blind helpless sadhu) and Jaimal take off to see Salig Ram in Peepal Mandi, whom hands Jaimal a robe in honor of his greatness, verifying his exalted status by words and asking Jaimal onto his gaddi ! Of course Radhaji (who is not shown as a member of this 1890 trip) magically appears from nowhere at Pipal Mandi at this exact moment to force Jaimal to take the robe from Salig Ram, because he is too humble! But, Kirpal is fully aware Jaimal was thrown out of both Salig Ram's and Misra's satsang for posing as a guru. Kirpal verifies Maheswari's claims about Jaimal's being disliked by other Swami Ji and Salig Ram disciples on page 61 of his book as "(Jaimal on Agra trip to Council) finding himself no longer well received and his words of no avail...returned to Beas." Kirpal is fully aware Chachaji was later to officially call Jaimal to task in Council for posing as a guru. The proof being Kirpal references specifically in footnotes the exact Maheswari books this negative information is contained in with his Jaimal, A Great Saint book ! So, Kirpal knew these conversations were absolutely impossible. The question becomes if Kirpal knew all these historical facts about Jaimal, why he didn't tell people in his book? Could it be because if you knew the full history he had omitted, you would know what he was saying could not have happened ?
................
Kirpal in Jaimal Great Saint book, page 60, reproduces the letter from Chachaji to Jaimal asking his endorsement for the Council members. Kirpal says Jaimal was nominated as 7th on ballot, but decided to remain aloof from the Council due to disagreement on the building of Swami Ji's samadh. But, we know Sawan worshiped at Swami Ji's samadh with his disciples in ritual. So, we see Kirpal produce another so called reason for Jaimal to act as he did. But, Kirpal fails to mention Jaimal wanted three seats on Council and was indeed given permission to initiate after the Council started. Kirpal fails to mention Chachaji and Council chastised Jaimal for posing as a guru and later brought excommunication proceedings. Sawan actually initiated for the Council gurus also, thereby accepting them as sant sat gurus. Why has Kirpal seen fit to exclude this part of Beas history ? Could it be Sawan was bowing at the feet of the Council gurus?
...................
These fictionalized conversations in Jaimal's life by Kirpal, were written in his book as if they actually occurred! Therefore, Kirpal's book, Jaimal, A Great Saint, seems a remarkable embarrassment to Kirpal's legacy and possibly the most extraordinary guru propaganda book ever written. Could these phantasmagorical conversations Kirpal manufactured in his book also show a delusional core basis, for the notion in his own mind, that he was a godlike Saint having reached Sach Kand ?
......................
Kirpal also tried to tie his lineage back to the last Sikh guru Govind and was proven wrong by Prof. Dr. Agam Mathue, listed 8th greatest historian in India.. Kirpal evidently could not read the Akashic records. Kirpal lists no source for conversations between Swami Ji and Jaimal, nor with Chachaji and Radhaji in his book. There is absolutely nothing verifying these conversations ever took place, or of these meetings in history. So how did Kirpal come up with these quotes involving these people in these conversations ? Why doesn't Kirpal show anything historical that Swami Ji ever knew Jaimal, or that someone ever saw Jaimal in Swami Ji's satsang ? With 10,000 people in Swami Ji's satsang, someone must have seen him. But, who ???? And, if any evidence existed, it would have shown up in the last 100 years. Kirpal cannot give reference, because none exist. Kirpal's Jaimal book seems an attempt to counteract Maheswari's devestating history books, which shortly preceded it. It is as if Kirpal is telling Maheswari to back off, that his disciples will believe any crap he tells them. Power politics.
................
Hence, there is no question in this writers mind Kirpal may have done great injustice to history. Kirpal's book, 'Jaimal, A Great Saint', seems to be the most astonishing piece of fabricated fiction since the story of Santa Claus. This book, I believe, may reek havoc on the true history of Beas for generations. I have extremely severe questions both regarding the integrity, and or sanity of Kirpal, for writing it.

[Mike Williams]

P.S. To last Kirpal Singh comment. Kirpal
claimed he had Jaimal's muster out sheet
from the army. Kirpal could only find 2 o 3 occasions where Jaimal's 24th Sikh Regiment
got close enough to Agra to attend a satsang. Their regiment was posted
about 800 miles away from Agra.

After Swami Ji died Jaimal lived in
a house down the street from Salig Ram and attended his satsangs, until Salig Ram threw out Jaimal for posing as a Guru
and hanging out with very young girls.

[Roger]

Robert Searle and Mike Williams,

Did either of you two know a person named David Teed? I think, I understand, he was an initiate of Kirpal.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Roger,
I did not know David Tweed. But I did see
Kirpal a few times and was also initiated by
Darshan Singh, Ajaib Singh and Thakar Singh.
I was also initiated by Charan Singh
and Gurinder and Prof. Dr. Agam Mathur
of Peepal Mandi. I attended Dayal Baugh satsangs, but Dr. Lal admitted he was not a Guru, so I didn't take initiation. Agra didn't have a Guru, although they do now suddenly.

Which Guru produced inner experience out
of all of them you wonder. Thakar Singh.
He ran 100% inner experinece with everyone.
He died. There was another surat shabda Guru
of Yogananda origin named Hariharinanda, recently dead. He also produced nearly 100%
inner experience when I watched his initiations. But, I saw and heard nothing.

Regarding the diaries of Kirpal, which are
take offs of Gharib Das, blind sadhu, initiate of Swami Ji, or there abouts
Council. Gharib Das wrote The Way in is OUT.
Salig Ram also wrote the secrets in Jugat
Prakesh. Not to mention the Sikh Gurus.

I wonder if Kirpal asked Paul Twitchell
of ECKANKAR these questions, whom he initiated and said he took to Sach Kand.

He claimed Meyer Baba was God, did Kirpal ask him these questions ?

kirpal was left in charge of pilgrims and books in Sawan Singh's last registered will.
He was specifically excluded as being Guru
therefore. Kirpal lied about
being Sawan's successor, the same way Jaimal
did.

In all my adventures in the world of
Gurus I have never seen such a remarkable fake as Kirpal.

He was not only a pathological liar, he was
quite literally insane. His book Godman
proves it. he admitted to Faquir Chand
he had no power.

[Roger]

Mike,

Was there a reason to be reinitiated, again and again, by the various Masters? Seems like one initation would be enough.

[Mike Williams]

"Was there a reason to be reinitiated, again and again, by the various Masters ? "
quote Roger

Yes. I was looking for the "juice".

One time I was being initiated by a kundalini woman master of Sahaj Marg,
(not to be confused with Ram Chandra,
whom I was also initiated by into pranahuti.)

There were 1500 people in an auditirium getting initiation. When she asked who
felt it, everyone in the place raised
their hands, except me and my wife.

When I watched hundreds of people see
light and hear sound from Hariharinanda,
Yogananda based, they all received experience, but I did not.

But, I watched over time, Thakar Singh
initiate thousands of people. They all
received experience. My wife and myself
also had experience. And, he was ruined
by sexual scandals.

My conclusion is, ethics has nothing
to do with if a master is a master.

Buy, I can't figure out how these
masters produce results, when Beas
based initiations are a floop.

There must be a logical reason, but I
can't figure it out.

Masters such as Darshan had almost no inner experience, Sawan Singh was the same and
Charan.

Why could a guy like Thakar produce it ?

Makes no sense to me to this day.

[Roger]

Thanks Mike for your message. Well, knowing me, I would ask what was the initiation experience, through the Thakar master? Could you describe such? I do understand when the yearning becomes too great, a fabricated experience can be produced. This intense yearning period could the 'insanity' you described in other posts. Thanks Roger

[tucson]

Mike,

I was initiated by Charan in 1970. No "inner" experiences until years later and they were no big deal.

On a whim and out of curiosity a friend and I went to an initiation by Thakar. My friend had no inner experience. I saw the usual blue light that I had been experiencing off and on for years. By the way, this friend has never had any inner experience after 40 years of meditation and sticking stricktly to the RSSB vows. He still goes to satsangs and meditates.

However, I had a private interview with Thakar. The vibrations were very high. Words were like odd meaningless sounds. We sat together for a time without saying anything. Who was Thakar and who was I? There was only this light.

I had a similar experience with a devotee of Sri Rajneesh who happened to be my landlord at the time. He had just returned from the Oregon ashram. We were sitting together and this happened.

Now, this happens pretty frequently with certain individuals.

[Mike Williams]

Hi tucson,
I flew on jets with Thakar and Darshan.

Darshan was self centered and egotistical.
Completely wraped in solid dogma. No one I saw got experience with Darshan, even when
he put his finger on ones forehead.

I saw people walk in off the street not knowing RS and explain high inner regions.
Thakar was a very nice guy on and off camera.

But, even he admitted to his demons and sexual problems.

It was sad, really.

Kirpal said a genuine master produced
inner experience at initiation. Darshan
did not. Thakar did. This made Darshan's group very jealous of Thakar to this day.

A 'good' master has nothing to do with good ethics. Yogananda had many sexual scandals.

Rajneesh has the town cafeteria poisioned
and made hundreds sick in Oregon when he saw
a local election going against him, that wanted his removal. Oregon public broadcasting ran commercials warning of Thakar's sexusl problem.

Rajneesh was famous for soaking every drop of money out of his disciples. When the FBI
caught him exiting the USA on a jet his
arms were loaded with Rolex watches. He had
scores of Rolls Royces.

I never saw any problems myself, but he did admit.90% of what is told about him is incorrect. The problem is, the other 10% is not.

But, how this inner experience happened with
Thakar, to so many people, is quite a mystery to me.

He wanted kids blindfolded and held in darkness for very long times, I saw this in his newsletter.

If inner experience is the guide to a master, Thakar was way ahead of any other RS Guru.

Yet, look at what happened. This shows me
inner experience does not produce enlightenment.

I have only hung around one enlightened master. He was an anti Guru named Jiddo
Krishnamuti. Everything he told
me turned out to be true. But, I could not
understand him while he was alive.

He spent his life debunking religion and masters.

[Mike Williams]

Correction,
90% of what is said about Thakar is untrue.
10% is true.

I was in back rooms with Darshan and Khanna
and saw many people come in and ask him why they couldn't get inner experience. Darshan
said only, "I am sorry".

I believe Rajinder, Darshan's son, is the most dangerous cult Guru on earth today.

This guy is out of his mind completely.
Insanity runs in their family I believe.
Very severe schizophrenia, I believe.

[tucson]

I don't want to come off as thinking I have "special" experiences by my comment above about seeing blue light. My brain just produces blue light sometimes. I don't know why or what it is or what it means. Maybe someone can tell me. Maybe I'm in touch with the throat chakra or whichever one is supposed to be blue. Anyway, it's no big deal and has yet to cleanse me of lust, anger, greed, attachment, egotism and my willingness to consume cheese made with rennet.

[Robert Searle]

It said that "spiritual" experiences are proof that a master is perfect. This is probably false to some extent. Beas Satsang, and many guru groups look upon them as a form of psychic trickery.

My own experiences with Dr Sharma, and Harjit Singh may also be likewise. But I did feel genuine positive changes in my character with the latter which I cannot fully explain.

Moreover, Harjit Singh enjoys a good reputation. Maybe that has something to do with it...and incidently, he does not "secretly" run a multi-national corporation unlike someone else....or have some large religious organization raking in funds from disciples!

[Scott]

I know this post is old now but please tell me.. How is Rajinder "the most dangerous cult guru on earth today"? He doesn't appear any more or less "dangerous" than any other "Masters" out there.

["Was There" Guy]

The comments about initiates not having inner experiences during Sant Darshan Singh's initiations are completely wrong. I sat through several, and saw first hand, afterwards, as Darshan Singh asked the newcomers to raise their hands if they had seen various phenomina (i.e lights of various colors, stars, inner moon, inner sun, radiant form of the Maste, etc,) I saw first hand, as the hands went up, that around ninety percent claimed to have had an experience. After decades of exposure to Sant Mat, I've come to the conclusion that there is no proof that Masters are directly responsible for any person's inner experience. But to claim that there never was any, during Darshan Singh initiations, is completely fallacious. I can obviously say that 10% did not have an inner experience at the time of initiation, but saying, as one commentator did, that "I saw many people come in and ask him why they couldn't get inner experience" is deliberately misleading. [It's best not to destroy your credibility by deliberately being only half true in your statements.] (And no, I don't follow Gurus any longer; but I refuse to LIE about them. I was also one of those who (after getting an initial experience when initiated by Kirpal Singh) went nearly a decade seeing nothing but darkness. Now I know that even treating meditation as nothing more than an amusing hobby, for no more than 45 minutes a day, results in inner light becoming established enough to be there pretty much every day of the week. As dense as we are, we claim to know so much without being willing to spend the (huge) amount of time doing the "work". I'm always amused by how some people love to listen to themselves speak. THAT'S their meditation. Let's be honest about it.

[Blogger Brian]

W.T. Guy, I'm pretty sure that if you asked attendees at a Christian evangelical revival, "How many here feel the presence of Jesus?", a majority of hands would go up.

So what does it prove, when people at a religious gathering claim to have had some sort of spiritual experience?

Do you think it's possible that both the Christians and the Sant Mat devotees were correct? Was one group right, and the other wrong? Or are both simply experiencing what they expected to experience.

I vote for the last possibility.

[Roger]

W.T Guy,

What was your initial experience at your initiation by Kirpal? Could you give a description? What made you leave the Guru after (10 years?) your experiences?

["Was There" Guy]

Hi Brian: My comment wasn't meant to prove anything, but to encourage accuracy when making statements about anyone, by providing the whole story, and not just part of it. Anyone who sat in on Darshan's initiations could see that around 90% of the attendees CLAIMED to have had an experience. I no longer worry about the claims of others, since I agree that they don't prove anything definitively. I don't even get involved in these endless debates that I stumble onto, every now and again, on the Internet. As for Roger's question, I was only a grade schooler when initiated by Kirpal singh, but I do remember very well seeing light of a very specific color, and unmistakably hearing one of the"lower" inner sounds. I was too young to take it seriously, and didn't meditate at all for ten years. When I started meditating again, at age 17, I found that I could see no light whatsoever. During one of Master Darshan's tours (Marietta hot springs, as I recall) I met him for the first time, and he asked me point blank whether I experienced anything in meditation. I told him I didn't, and he simply said, "Sit in on the initiation, and you will be given it again."

At the initiation I saw the very same color of light that I saw when initiated by Kirpal. For a while afterwards I meditated regularly and was able to maintain the light. However, my worldly ways caught up with me, and for seven years of meditating nearly every day (usually the whole prescribed two hours) I was unable to see any light at all. It wasn't until towards my late twenties, when I got more serious about "man making" as the masters call it, that I gradually began seeing light again; now white, instead of the previous color. I, on VERY rare occasions, would also see glimpses of some of the other inner sites that we've all heard about; but never the inner Master. (The longest "glimpse" I ever had lasted about two minutes, and it happenend when I stopped saying simran. ...I was experimenting with whether or not simran itself actually created disturbance in the mind, and possibly got in the way.) In my thirties I became too "busy" to meditate more than a half hour to an hour a day. That's true to this day, but from my mid thirties until now (knock on wood) I've been able to see light in meditation nearly every day; and to feel the associated peace that goes along with it.

By my mid thirties I started wondering whether gurus' were truly responsible for a person's inner experience. This, because of the collectively "huge" amount of time that a person can put into meditation, whether he has a guru or not, and the effect that this would pssibly have (again, whether a person has a guru or not). Another reason for my new found objectivity, was that I discovered, over time, that many of the statements and/or predictions offered by Darshan (and Rajinder) to myself and to others, turned out to be completely inaccurate and untrue. It became clear to me that they were absolutely NOT all knowing, and that guru worship in general creates a type of psychological dependency that can have a crippling effect on a person. I've seen too many passive people who simply pray to the masters to do everything for them (in this world and the next). It creates an inertia that destroys the soul, in my opinion.

That's all I wanted to say. Like I mentioned, I don't get involved in these discussions, other than to help set the record straight, as I just tried to do here. (No, I'm not to "cool" to hang around and debate; I'm honestly just too tired. Too tired of the endless "know it all ism".)

"Got humility", anyone?

Bye.