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August 14, 2010


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The realization of no self was the goal of the
Buddha. But, what does this mean ? Ramana Maharshi
and Ramesh Balsekar also taught the same. But, how
does this create the Ultimate and Final Enlightenemnet ?

Even higher than RS ? Higher than kundalini ? According
to Ramana, there is a force which can come down. This downward force opens the chakras from top down.

Kundalini based systems such as RS and Yogananda, both surat
shabda, bring the energy up the spine. When you are initiated by Agra based RS groups they teach you the higher chakra points on the head. Shabda is kundalini. Same animal.

RS tries now to infer by meditating on the higher chakra
at tirsa til, you bypass the lower. Not true.

Only the jnani such as Ramana can bring the energy down.
In Indian religion the jnani is the highest state, above
surat shabda and kundalini. But, RS downplays this.

You will never find an enlightened RS Guru, because they
don't achieve the highest state. Radhasoami Pad is not

The problem is the personalization of impersonal thought.
Thought is a thing, not a "who". The realization of no self
comes when the person realizes he is not a "who", but a "what" (thing).

The question is not "Who Am I ?". The question
is "Am I a Who ?"

The "Who" is a myth of the brain. The personalized thought
is the "self" (Who). The personalization of thought is the cause of all evil.

If you realize you are an impersonal "thing" as thought,
you can no longer have a personalized thought (myth)(self).

The mythical personalized self completely shatters instantly. Remember when you found out Santa Claus was not real ? Instantly you could no longer react to the myth of Santa.
It could not be a cause of action. When the "self"(personalized thought) is seen a fiction, it can no longer get you to produce action for "selfish" reasons.

You have no self and neither does anyone else. The jnani
does this with no effort. The Saint tries to emmulate
the jnani by force and resistance. The Saint looks at his state as an accomplishment (in all humility).

Saints resistance only lasts so long before they fail.
The jnani can never go back. He will not move a muscle
to wax a mythical self. The jnani is not Holy.

Of course kundalini, mind, inner planes, do not exist.
But, I have to use this to you people to communicate.

But, thought of the brain, as a thing, does exist. Not
even the enlightened jnani knows if there is an afterlife,
or a God.

The Buddhists Groups have fallen prey fake masters.
I can't think of one Buddhist master that is enlightened.

There is no path to enlightenement. It just happens.
These people have an erudite and uncanny ability to
look directly at thought and to see its mystery instantly.

They laugh at the Saints and their feigned humilty.

Mike Williams



Science has now proven consciousness the
the result of evolution, not its cause.
They have proven consciousness is a series
of mico flashes in the brain. It is born and dies in mili seconds.

There is no Self, or Great Screen, or
Higher Consciousness, behind thought.

Gurus love to tell you that you have a soul
or Higher Consciousness, a Witness, which survives life in a hereafter.

Consciousness is like the propellers on an aeroplane. Or, the light from a light bulb. You see it as as continuous. But, in fact it is micro particles moving so fast, it
looks continuous.

Consciousness is NOT CONTINUOUS. So, when your Guru claims he is teaching a science,
ask what quack university he got his Ph. D.

Enlightenment is not something one would wish upon their best friends.

Enlightenment is something that is wished
upon ones worst enemies.

No self, no afterlife, no God. No nothing.

A horrible state. This is why enlightened people rarely ever teach.

"Give a savage a watch and he believes it has a soul."
Quote atheist Napoleon Bonaparte

Screw restaurant protocol;I never wait for the server to bring me the check.When I finish eating I walk to the cash register and someone usually comes quickly to take my money-especially if its by the exit!

Some additional considerations for readers along the lines of what Mike Williams is talking about....

Regarding the nature of Time, Consciousness, and Existence/Creation:

Please consider the following excerpt that was taken from an entire article located at:


"Time is a label that humans have applied to the aggregate of many aspects of reality. Within the samskrta (sanskrit) based linguistic traditions which are just about half of the languages on planet earth, 'time' is actually a collection of individual aspect/attributes of the manifestation of reality. The early Greek reality descibers (philosophers) identified at least 2/two aspects of the collective we call 'time' in their discussions of chronos (measured or mechanistic time), and karios (the quality of a time/moment, the 'opportune' moment). The Taoist tradition going back to at least the 5/Five Bushel League years included 22/twenty-two identified aspects/attributes of reality that fell within the general category of 'time'. The Yogic school going back through the experimental stages of the formation of the Science of Yoga, had identified over 100/one-hundred aspect/attributes of time, though many of these also include the time-binding properties of what we call 'karma' in the collective, and karmas in the particulate.

"Time, from these views of reality, is not a 'river' carrying 'events' in a stream. The alternate understanding expressed in what can be labeled as the 'yogic' understanding of reality, 'time' is but part of the 'template' through which continuous creation expresses itself. This is to say, that in the 'continuous creation of universe, including me and you and everything in between' school of reality, 'time' is but a necessary component of the basic 'infrastructure' of reality. It must also be understood that in this view, 'time' is not a separate part of reality, nor is it a 'singular' part of reality.

"As a point of departure for this discussion of 'time' and the techniques of its use, we begin at the beginning, or the source of time. This is a tiny spot, waaay too small to be seen by the naked human eye, even likely way too small to be seen with any of our most advanced microscopes. This tiny tiny spot is at the absolute center of the universe. That it is also at the very center of the multiverse (all of the multitude of singular central points), is best left for another discussion. This small point contains all that is Source for what we call, 'reality' or 'the material world'. This Source is actually an energetic pulse that fires off at the rate of 22/twenty-two trillion times a second (in our understanding of what a 'second' actually is in the chronos meaning).

"Every single pulse, which is to say, all 22/twenty-two trillion pulses each and every second since the beginning of time, instantly travels in Non-Time/Space (aka - The Void to all the taoist/buddhists out there), to the center of all the galaxies within universe (and the multiverse....but again, for later). As there is no time in The Void, or Non-Space/Time, each of the pulses travels to the center of each of the galaxies simultaneously, and from there, also taking up no Time, each pulse spreads out to the center of each of the material bodies such as suns, and planets and stuff throughout the totality of that galaxy. It is this pulse, at the rate of 22/twenty-two trillion times a second, that 'regulates' the manifestation of time. As 'time' in the aggregate of all of its aspects/attributes is central to all conscious perception of motion, distance, and indeed, all forms of perception itself in any form of consciousness expressed in material universe, 'time' is thus the 'propellant' that causes consciousness to perceive. Stated another way just to be really confusing, without time, consciousness could not perceive any motion, any change, including the 'change' that is required within each of the senses of the body themselves. Thus 'time' as an integral aspect of perception within the consciousness manifesting in material universe, is what the pulse from the center of universe carries directly to consciousness.

"Looked at yet another way in an attempt at understanding, while it takes no 'time' for each of the pulses to expand through out each universe from the initial, and central pulse point, each of these pulses is a 'carrier' of time, in all its aspects and attributes.

"Yet, just to confuse the hell out of consciousness, these pulses from the center of universe, *are* consciousness itself, about to perceive itself, in the reflections of its own perception of itself as time... ... ..."

** please note: the above is only the beginning, so i suggest that readers go and read/review the entire article at:



Please also consider the following excerpt that was taken from another different article at:


[consider a...] "...central pulse coming from the middle of universe at the rate of 22/twenty-two trillion times a second. This pulse does not merely provide a synchronizing ‘beat’ for universe. Such an understanding is severely lacking. Rather this pulse IS universe in the very real sense of the pulse triggering creation.

"As it happens, this pulse comes 22/twenty-two trillion times a second, and every time it occurs, the universe that consciousness experiences as the ‘material world or universe’ creates itself. That is the pulse comes out of the central point of universe and using no-time, travels instantly to the center of all galaxies, and through them to all other matter in universe down to the level of the perceived atomic solidity, and then each and every ‘atom’ within universe creates itself to the beat of the pulse.

"We note a number of points about this idea. There are also 22/twenty-two trillion pauses each second, and these pauses allow for the existence of what physics calls ‘entropy’. Further it is the duality of pulse/pause that allows for all perceived movement, including the ‘perceived passage of time’. We note that it is the speed of creation (at the rate of 22/twenty-two trillion times a second), that tricks our minds and senses into perceiving reality as ‘solid’. Further, as our senses themselves, along with our bodies and minds, are participating in the continuous creation, it is nearly impossible to ‘see’ continuous creation as it occurs.

"Within the continuous creation model of reality, it can be observed that what has been called the ‘indivisible unit’ or the ‘kalapa’ in past science, is what the modern academicians are spending all their time and money attempting to ‘see’ with their machinery. However as their model of reality has atoms as ‘solid’, they are of the opinion that multiple different types of sub atomic particles exist. In ‘reality’, there is only the Indivisible Unit which has (according to the yogic and taoist traditions) some 66/sixty-six thousand (66,000) aspects. So where the academicians see a ‘solid’ particle that they call a ‘quark’ or 'gluon' or 'meson'....et al, the mind informed about continuous creation observes that the scientists are actually seeing a small sub set of the 66/sixty-six thousand aspects and mistaking it for a ‘separate’ thing. So much for the Large Hadron Collider and any expected ‘real’ results.

"In the continuous creation model of reality, all of what can be observed within the material universe is really a complex arrangement of standing waves or vibrations which are vibrating so fast as to trick those of us within material universe into perceiving it as solid. Part of this trick has to do with the apparent, or perceived passage of time. The perceived passage of time for those beings within universe is dependent upon the duality of the pulse and pause. Not only does the pause allow for entropy to exist, it also provides the perceived dynamism of ‘time’. It is worth noting here that the sensory supplied human (and other earth life form) minds are perceiving at the rate of about 30 to 60 frames (pulse/pause rate) per second, so it is little wonder that such minds are convinced that reality is solid.

"Note: In the continuous creation model of reality, the pulse creates universe 22/twenty-two trillion times a second, while the pause allows for the complete destruction of all that has just been created. Movement in the rational mind cannot occur in material world without the duality of both continuous creation, and continuous destruction. In other words, for percieved movement of any and all kinds to occur in material universe, it is necessary that the 'matter' of material universe not be all that solid, and that gaps for destruction of all atoms and everything exist in 'time'.

"Time defined:
Within the continuous creation model of reality, the definition of time becomes a bit simpler on the poor human mind. In fact, since reality is continuously destroying itself 22/twenty-two trillion times a second, it logically follows that the ‘past’ exists in only the space between a pulse and the following pause in which reality destroys itself. Thus ‘past time’ is now explained.

"Of course, we note that humans, trapped as complex vibration fields (both dynamic and standing = yang/yin) in which our sensory organs, and perception abilities are limited to 30/thirty to 60/sixty pulse/pause per second, will perceive the ‘past time’ as somewhat longer due to the ‘lag time’ that is involved with our processing of our sensory perceptions. Make sense? So even our sensory organs down at the atomic and lower levels are destroying themselves 22/twenty-two trillion times a second, but because we life forms operate at so much slower a mental rate, we are not aware of our own continuous destruction, or continuous creation. Nor for that matter, the rest of material universe that we ‘think’ surrounds our corporal forms.

"Continuous creation/destruction model of reality also necessarily reinforces the old yogic/taoist notion that there is ‘only one moment’, and to ‘live in the moment’. Clearly this is the ONLY thing possible as we are continuously being destroyed, along with reality, and thus no other moments, or time exist. There is only this moment. Again we note that a ‘moment’ IS longer that 22/twenty-two trillionth of a second, but again, this is a perceptive issue relative to our processing speed.

"The continuous creation/destruction model of reality also, necessarily, proves that human consciousness is outside of ‘time’ and ‘material reality’ as we all ‘know’. However this model of reality demonstrates that consciousness must be independent of material reality as it would otherwise be ‘destroyed’ 22/twenty-two trillion times a second. This cannot be happening as there is a known, demonstrable continuity over ‘time’ or through the pulse/pause series. That we have consciousness persisting beyond a single burst pulse/pause event demonstrates that consciousness is outside of, and is not affected by, material reality. Further this establishes that consciousness is ‘immortal’ as it is not destroyed. It can also be noted that consciousness is also not affected by time. That is to say, while mental perceptions within life change and ‘age’, consciousness does not change. It is there until it separates from material reality at what we have labeled the point of death.

"Within the yogic/taosist understanding of the continuous creation/destruction model of universe the totality of the 66,000 (sixty six thousand) aspects or kalapas are roughly divided into thirds. Each of these sets of about a third of these aspects are called a guana in Sanskrit. The yogic model has reality divided up into guanas of ‘period’, and ‘form/figure’, and ‘dynamism’. In the taoist model, the 66,000 aspects are divided into ‘time’, ‘figure’, and ‘movement’. Without respect to this division, both traditions also note that the ‘universal creation’ takes about half of all the aspects, and is spread evenly through all 3/three guanas. The other half of the aspects are for the ‘personal expression’ of the life within reality. It can be noted from both traditions that ‘time’ is a central component so key as to take up a third of the creation/destruction of reality.

"Within the continuous creation and destruction model of reality, it is obvious that such concepts of a ‘river’ of time are nonsensical. Time does not exist, other than the now. In fact, this model of reality demonstrates that time does not exist except as the impact of ‘events’ or ‘movement’ upon the mental processes of life within material reality. Noting that ‘time’ is existent only as a perception by life within material reality, by extension it can be postulated that ‘time’, being a perception and not a ‘thing’, must have nuance, and differences in its state of perception. Stated another way, time is not a constant, but rather is a perception and therefore is affected by the mind doing the perceiving. Thus we have an easy explanation for why there are various ‘flavors’ of time-feeling, such that the human mind is aware of the differences between the experience of various ‘types’ of time, and invents words/concepts such as ‘karios’ to better communicate the idea.

"So time is a perception, that is to say, it is subject to our personal experience of it and is therefore not a universal constant. This does not mean that such things as mechanistic forms of time, as in ‘chronos’ do not exist, but rather that such are merely required aspects of the total experience of time, and not a ‘thing’ in and of itself.

"The simple answer as to why time travel is not possible has already been noted. Time does not exist, therefore to ‘travel’ in it is without real meaning. Time is a complex perception of the pulse/pause of continuous creation, which as noted, also brings along with it, continuous destruction. Thus the ‘past’ does not exist except as a construct within our experience, again, not an independent part of reality. Therefore travel to the past is not possible. After all, it is gone, 22/twenty-two trillion times a second it is destroyed. The only ‘time’ that exists is the now.

"Conversely, it is not possible to travel to the future, as it also does not exist. The next ‘future’ point in time that will exist is 22/twenty-two trillionth of a second away from both creating and destroying itself. Again, the ‘future’ does not exist. Not only has it not happened yet….it will, in a very ‘real’ manner, never actually happen at all.

"It can be seen from this description that the analogy of time as being ‘river’ like is totally misplaced, and that construct is the point from which the erroneous idea of time travel originates.

"While the continuous creation/destruction model of reality does not allow for traveling in time, it does allow for knowledge of both past and future within the present moment. Of course the mind can record and retain memories of past events in the continuous creation of time and reality, and thus have a knowledge of ‘past’ time.

"Understanding how the corporal mind can have knowledge of the future is not so easily seen in the continuous creation/destruction model of universe. As the mind functions at such a low level of vibration relative (30 to 60 ‘frames’ of reality per second), and noting that there is NOT a solid thing in universe, including the perceiving human brain, and that all in universe is actually vibration, it can be noted that as reality creates itself, it will ALWAYS be creating itself ‘ahead’ of the mental abilities of those beings within material reality. Stated another way, since your mind is consuming time in cogitation about reality, it is doing so ‘behind’ the actual creation of the reality it contemplates. Therefore the mind doing the perceiving of reality is always operating behind the creation/destruction of reality, and so to speak, is operating as a memory, rather than a really instant expression of the now. Thus reality is ever so slightly ‘ahead’ in creating/destroying itself, and thus the ‘mind’ of those experiencing time, is vibrating at a slower level than the passage of time. Thus the lag time in mental processing means that the ‘future’ is being created now, while we are really perceiving the ‘now’ as memories. In this understanding then, and noting that our bodies and minds are actually standing and dynamic vibration fields, vibrating in sync with universe, it becomes understandable that as creation/destruction occurs, it will necessarily affect or impact some of the waves/fields that compose those of us experiencing time. Therefore, ever so slightly ‘ahead’ of our ability to process it, is knowledge of the future just created. This is one level of knowledge about the future, but continuous creation/destruction model allows for others.

"To provide a crude example for greater clarity, consider the sun. It takes an apparent 8.56 minutes for light to travel from the sun and reach earth. IF the sun were to explode now, or turn green now, your senses would not pick up that information for 8.56 minutes. Thus, in a real sense, you would be dead or green for a full 8.56 minutes without realizing it.

"However, for a more complete understanding of manifesting reality, we need to consider consciousness as well. Noting that consciousness is outside of, and is unaffected by time, we can postulate that the consciousness therefore is knowing about reality at an entirely different level than is perceived (or even perceivable?) within reality. It would therefore not be surprising if consciousness ‘knew everything’ about everything. It is extra-temporal, and is also ‘extra-reality’, in the sense that consciousness is outside of the continuous creation/destruction of reality. Therefore it likely knows all kinds of interesting things that it is simply not able, or willing to communicate to the mental processes that are within material reality. Nor should it. Likely the point of reality is the experiencing it as we do, and therefore too much ‘fore knowledge’ would put that experience at risk. Which is probably why the ‘uncertainty factor’ for all ‘future knowledge’ exists. This is to say that it is probably a necessary part of our mental sanity/process that uncertainty about the ‘future’ should exist until that ‘future’ manifests.

"There are all kinds of interesting corollaries to the continuous creation/destruction understanding of reality.

"It should be noted that this model fully supports the Terrance McKenna idea of an eschaton, or world-time ending. The eschaton is actually a predictable effect of the continuous creation/destruction model. As reality creates and destroys itself, it does so to allow for dynamism or movement, or change. Change allows for the growth of complexity, as does the nature of the underlying vibration fields that actually is material reality. It is a predictable part of reality that complexity would increase over time. Further the increase in complexity should proceed predictably toward a crescendo point, in so far as mind is concerned. This crescendo is probably associated with an increase in complexity of the perception of time such that an eschaton will be reached. Thereafter the ‘what’ of reality is anyone’s guess."


"This small point contains all that is Source for what we call, 'reality' or 'the material world'. This Source is actually an energetic pulse that fires off at the rate of 22/twenty-two trillion times a second (in our understanding of what a 'second' actually is in the chronos meaning)."

---What is this small point? What is the "22/" mean? What is destroyed and does this destruction occur after 1/22 trillionth of a second?

When I was little, maybe 4-5 years old I used to ask my mother if she could explain why each second had 22,000,000,000,000 creations and destructions in it. Of course we agreed about the 22 trillion. That was as obvious as snot on a pig's nose. Everybody knew that. What was puzzling was since each second could be divided in such a way, why was each second not interspersed with, say, 888 trillion creations and destructions or even several hundred million times that many? After all, how long is a second in infinity? We used to discuss this for hours (zillions of kalpas) over milk and cookies. (Her milk had vodka in it and lots of it.)

Anyway, in the clarity that only a sugar rush and vodka intoxication can give you my mother told me:

"You see, son, temporality is not in fact different from intemporality because each is a conceptual interpretation, positive and negative respectively, of the phenomenon of the sequentioal extension of objects, of their duration as opposed to their possible lack of duration. They lose all meaning in their mutual negation, which leaves 'eternality' which is what, ultimately, we are."

"Aha!", I thought as I dipped a cookie in milk with one hand and twirled a Mickey Mouse figurine with the other. "Mom, why didn't you tell me this sooner? The issue has been keeping me awake lately."

"Wait son, there's more, and this is the kicker...Ultimately the non-difference of all pairs of opposites lies in the absence of an experiencer of them. You keep seeking Truth, God or whatever and have been doing so since you were little, but don't you see? The seeker is the found and the found is the seeker as soon as it is seen that there is no time."

"Far out, Mom. Pass the vodka. So, what is enlightenment?"

"My dear, it is really a meaningless term, but it could be called the immediate intuitive perception that we are not. Hence, who could ever be enlightened? How could there be a "we" if there is no time for us to be in? All that can be said about enlightenment is that it is re-integration in intemporality and no one to do it."

Now go out and play.

" Enlightenment is a meaningless term, but it could be called the immediate intuitive perception that we are not. Hence, who could ever be enlightened?"
quote Roger

WHO could ever be enlightened ? That
is the problem, there is no WHO that can ever be enlightened as you point out.

Energy exists without a persona. Energy
can only personify itself as our thought.
When out impersonal thinking, thinks it
is personal, there comes the great problem.

Only then can the mythical WHO step in and say, I need to be enlightened.(to save myself)

But, when enlightenement occurs, one realizes there was never any WHO that could have ever been enlightened.

The WHO (personified thought, self), never existed, even before we tried to get rid of the immaginary WHO.

The delusion of the WHO can only be chased
away with a broomtick, not a cannon.

Saints use the cannon, because they think
they are fightening a real foe (their WHO).
Hence they take great pride in their resistance and repression. But, like pressing down on a spring, soon their arms get tired and it pops up again.

Hence, Saints are the greatest hypocrites.
The jnani sees he has no WHO. All the memory banks in the brain explode over the old myth of the WHO. They cannot create action again for 'selfish' motives. The mind does not need to be stilled for the jnani to be selfless.

Once you realized Santa Claus didn't exist,
no matter how fast your mind moves, it cannot create action to please Santa, or
wait under the chimney.

Stilling the mind is a hoax of the Saints.

Thought realizes it has mistakenly personalized itself. At that moment the mind blows up. The WHO is shattered forever.
Why wax a WHO (self) that never existed ?

Only Saints tell us we had a WHO. So, they can get rid of it for us.

It is the WHO that wants enlightenment.

If we had no WHO, no one would want it.

"If people knew what enlightenment was, they would not touch it with a ten foot barge pole."
quote U. G. Kriishnamuti.

For the enlightened to teach the calamity
that has befallen them, would be like inviting people to their own lynching.

That's why, "If you see the Buddha walking down the road..... kill him."

"(Enlightenment) could be called the immediate intuitive perception that we are not."
quote tucson
Sorry, my last post was a quote tucson, not Roger also

The body, the brain, thoughts are real.
Actions are experienced in this world as pain and pleasure.

Again... EXPERIENCED. And, as you mention
the EXPERIENCER is unreal.

Experience .... experiences itself.
There is no THINKER and NO FEELER. But,
there is thinking and feeling.

There are different ways for an intellectual to figure out that he does
not exist. That nothing in ultimate terms
actually exists as a seperation from all that is.

And, this is good.

But, will this create enlightenment ?

No, the person will still act as a "WHO."
Even if they know they don't exist. Even if they believe the Universe doesn't exist.

The reality of the hard physical world
has to be dealt with, even if it ultimately
does not exist.

These logics are why Zen, Gurdjieff-Ouspensky, Tao fail the masses. An intellectual understanding, even if totally correct, will not produce enlightenment.

The vanity will remain as the WHO (self).
The person whom perfectly figures out the Universe will still be almost the same.

It is a game of the hypnotic spell. All the correct logic and science in the world will not rid the subconscious belief in the self,
no matter how etherial, or sequestered.

The question is not how to figure out the ultimate science of the universe, because the root problem will still exist.

The problem is to become un-hypnotised.
The answer is not hard to figure out.

It is only hypnotic suggestion that keeps
us from seeing it.

And, only an incredibly honest person can do that.

Because people think they have to give up their self (WHO) to reach enlightenment.
Their greatest possession.

The Zen intellectual will exude a superiority complex, no matter how masked.

The final moment comes not when one figures
out the answer.

The final moment, 'when it happens', comes

It is a Houdini Trick, not an intellectual exercise.

"That we have consciousness persisting beyond a single
burst pulse/pause event demonstrates that consciousness
is outside of, and is not affected by, material reality."
quote Tao article

Nice article Tao. Sorry my response has taken awhile.
Most of this article sounds decent, except for this
one line. It happens to make a statement that has been
disproved by science a few years
ago. I read the scientists paper on Susan Blackmore's site,
but forgot his name.

What they proved was consciousness was not continuous,
as your article mentions. But, is a series of temporal
flashes perceived as continuous, as your article mentions.

With the logic in the line I quoted from this article,
one could assume the propeller blade on an aeroplane
is outside of, and is not affected by, material reality,
as it persists beyond a single twirl.

Everything that exists, lasts beyond a single burst in our
world. Everything is flashing and is born and dies and is born
again in an instant.

In reality there is no such thing as consciousness. Just
like a clenched hand has no fist.

Flashing does contiune in the template,
sometimes seen as DNA, but also the atoms and molecules
are flashing as you mention.

Nietzshe once proposed consciousness was an effect, not
the cause of the universe. This has now been proven.
Consciousness was not the cause of evolution, but the effect
of evolution.

This tosses the God notion out for mandatory creation,
through the window. In other words, everything just
happens by its very nature. At some point what we think of
as consciousness evolves in living creatures.

The light bulb throws out particle beam packets, but
it is not conscious, just because it persists beyond
one flash. Nor, is it outside of and not affected by
material reality.

It turns out matter did create consciousness, or what
passes for such.

This discussion came up 3,000 years ago in a primative yoga
society. The atheists won the day with this simple logic.

A grape will not produce intoxication by itself. But, when
fermented, one can get drunk and change their conscious state.
Intoxication was produced as a result of a sober grape.

In the same way, seemingly unconscious matter, produces

That was their logic. And, 3,000 years later they have been
proven correct.

This creates a dilemna for the Guru. They tell us the
consciousness we experience is eternal.

They got away with this because it does seem like we
are watching everything in our mind. And, that the
watcher must be seperate as experience passes by.

This method of holding on to consciousness and just watching
does not create enlightenment. Because we are not consciousness,
no more than we are a thought.

The Screen behind the screen theory has been debunked.

This is really the great hook of the Guru. That our
consciousness is eternal and we change forms around it.

Energy is eternal, the problem is, we are not. Our particular
consciousness is over at death.

"Say it ain't so Joe."



"What they proved was consciousness was not continuous, as your article mentions. But, is a series of temporal flashes perceived as continuous, as your article mentions."

--Is there a further description of what a 'flash' is? Please explain how these flashes were measured. In addition, how was it proven that these 'flashes' are arranged in a series?

Mike Williams wrote:

"Energy is eternal, the problem is, we are not. Our particular
consciousness is over at death."

--I'm not saying this to argue. I just see things differently. There is no individual energy, imho. There is no such thing that objectively exists independently from everything else. I think our "particular" consciousness never began and therefore will not be "over" at death, i.e. how could "my" moment to exist have ever arrived if there is no beginning to eternity and no end. How could eternity ever begin, how could "I" ever begin, let alone end? What preceded it...an earlier eternity? What will follow it...a later eternity? That would mean lots of eternities...parallel eternities encompassed by a grand eternity? Or maybe the grand eternity encompassing lesser eternities is encompassed by an even grander eternity ad infinitum in a perpetual regression.

All this beginning and ending, existence and non-existence stuff is gobbledegook. We are eternity itself, its-unself.

We think presence is something but it is no thing at all. What we fail to understand is that absence is all and is the Source of presence. Presence is what is not while Absence is what is.

What we really are is unmanifest, phenomenally absent.

What we are is the absence of everything we appear to be and can think that we are.

What we are is the absence of all presence.

Presence is a dualistic mechanism of subject-object relation resulting in an I-concept that emerges from sense perceptions illusorily interpreted by our conditioning. If there is neither this nor that (subject-object), where would "I" be? Nowhere. Never was, this "I" thing. Therefore there is nothing to lose in death or gain in life. Really, they are the same.

tucson, I'm starting to be worried about myself. I almost feel like I understand your comment. That's scary! Am I losing my mind? (And if so, is that a bad thing?)

"Is there a further description of what a 'flash' is?"

Its been a few years ago since I saw it on
Susan Blackmore's site.
But, it was another doctor that discovered it.
All I definitely remember was, they said consciousness
has been proven without a doubt to not be continuous.
If I remember correctly, it had something to do with
synapses (sp?), electrical charges and chemicals.

Some other doctor had also discovered the exact
source where consciousness come from in the brain,
but I didn't read it.

"If there is neither this nor that (subject-object),
where would "I" be? Nowhere. Never was, this "I" thing."
"I think our "particular" consciousness never began
and therefore will not be "over" at death."
quote tucson

Once a fellow asked Ramana Maharshi is there was
life after death. Ramana replied, "Are you sure
you were ever born ?"

We are discussing a subject where both the yea
and nea answers are correct.

The delusional 'self', actually does exist. But, it is
simply one packet of impersonal thoughts, thinking
another packet of thoughts are personal. Impersonal
thought whips itself into a frency and creates the

All thought is impersonal. But, other thought
personalizes it. Personalized (impersonal) thought
is the problem. That is the 'self', the WHO.

Though can only be a 'thing'. Thought can never be a

Yet, we all feel like WHOS.

Thought has created the 'belief' it is a WHO
(personalized thought)

But, think of yourself as a robot. If a robot thinks,
can it ever be a WHO ? Even if it 'believes' it is ?

Are we not robots, whom dreamed we have a WHO ?

Once the robot 'believes' it has a WHO, it can become
ambitious, greedy, hateful, etc. The robot now adores fame
and praise.

But, if the robot knows it is only a mechanical fuction,
with no permenant self (WHO), why should it spend any
time waxing a self that does not exist.

Plain simple, stupid thought, is the self.

We are in fact, the robots whom would be Gods.


fyi, i merely presented someone else's ideas and information. thats why i provided the links. just because i post an article that someone else wrote, doesn't mean that i support or defend those views.

also, i don't agree that "there is no such thing as consciousness." i just don't define consciousness the same way as it is commonly done.

[ for more on that, please review the info contained in the videos that i have provided links for at the bottom of this comment ]

"also the atoms and molecules
are flashing as you mention."

-- again, i did not write that. someone else did. but it is one way of looking at it.

"Nietzshe once proposed consciousness was an effect, not the cause of the universe. This has now been proven. Consciousness was not the cause of evolution, but the effect
of evolution."

-- i don't define consciousness in those terms. i see consiousness more as a limited field or limited focus of awareness. i don't see consciousness as evolving or expanding either.

also, "material reality" is just an idea.

"matter did create consciousness, or what
passes for such."

-- thats also an assumption.

"seemingly unconscious matter, produces

-- that is one view, one possibility... but its not yet conclusive.

"This creates a dilemna for the Guru. They tell us the consciousness we experience is eternal."

-- i personally don't care what gurus may say. all that sort of thing is irrelevant to me. i don't give it any weight.

it does seem like we are watching everything in our mind. And, that the
watcher must be seperate as experience passes by."

-- thats a very partial, narrow, and limited view... one which is lacking. that is addressed in the videos that i linked to.

"This method of holding on to consciousness and just watching does not create enlightenment."

-- agreed, but do see the videos i linked to.

"Because we are not consciousness,
no more than we are a thought."

-- agreed. there is more on that in the videos.

Energy is eternal, the problem is, we are not. Our particular consciousness is over at death.

-- i tend to agree. and there's more on that in the viedos.

links to videos:

The Joy of Knowing Series [you can view all the videos in this series from here]:


However, i suggest initially viewing just the following particular videos:

#1. http://www.youtube.com/user/Unasleep#p/c/145C5B3AACF24979/0/rysc67n14w4

#2. http://www.youtube.com/user/Unasleep#p/c/145C5B3AACF24979/1/LzreBzqB0nI

#3. http://www.youtube.com/user/Unasleep#p/c/145C5B3AACF24979/2/OwSj7hRR2F8

#4. http://www.youtube.com/user/Unasleep#p/c/145C5B3AACF24979/3/qVjxNFPpy2c

#5. http://www.youtube.com/user/Unasleep#p/c/145C5B3AACF24979/4/YVDNVD7L80Y






unAsleep's Channel - index of all videos:



actually, i think that comment with lkinks to videos that i posted (but it did not show up) was posted here under this article/thread.

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