"Ground zero" mosque dispute fanned by supernaturalism

When I read the facts about the Islamic mosque planned for a site a few blocks from "ground zero," a.k.a. the spot where the World Trade Center towers once stood, it's difficult to understand what all the fuss is about.

There already is a mosque four blocks from ground zero. So what's the big deal with having one two blocks away? Plus, the proposed development actually is a cultural center, which will include a mosque.

As a Washington post story says (registration may be required to read it):

The plan is for a cultural center that would contain a mosque.

The project's organizers have said that the center would be modeled on Manhattan's 92nd Street Y, a community center open to all New Yorkers. The center would house meeting rooms, a fitness center, a swimming pool, a basketball court, a restaurant and culinary school, a library, a 500-seat auditorium, a mosque and a Sept. 11 memorial and reflection space. The organizers have estimated that the mosque could attract as many as 2,000 worshipers on Fridays.

So again, what's the big deal?

There's talk about one or more of the people involved with the Islamic cultural center being unduly radical. Well, if he's a terrorist, charge him with something. But if he isn't breaking any laws, isn't free speech still allowed in the United States?

Some people rant on about mosques being hothouses of Al Qaeda'ish radicalism. OK, if this is true, why are any mosques allowed to stay open in this country? Why isn't there a call for the existing mosque four blocks from ground zero to be shut down?

I think a big part of the answer is found in two words: hallowed ground. This phrase comes up a lot in stories about the proposed "Park51" cultural center/mosque. Hallowed ground is sacred, holy, revered. It isn't plain old ground; something supernatural has been added on to it.

This shows how religiosity complicates social and political issues, introducing metaphysical nonsense into debates that should be carried out much more calmly and rationally.

Those opposed to the cultural center say it is disrespectful to have a mosque so close to the World Trade Center site. I can't understand why. There already are mosques close to ground zero. Why not have another one?

The reason, so far as I can understand it, seems to be that some people imagine that a "hallowsphere" extends out from where the World Trade Center towers stood. Nobody can see or sense it, like God. But they believe that it exists and makes the ground underneath it hallowed.

That's ridiculous.

If people have strong feelings against a mosque in the area, they should simply say: "I object to a mosque anywhere near ground zero." And then give their reasons why. Arguing that a mosque can't go on hallowed ground is to say nothing -- it's just gibberish.

I loved my mother. I still love her. However, following her funeral I've never been back to where her ashes are interred. It has no meaning for me. My mother isn't there. My mother lives on in my memories of her, not in the cemetary ground.

(In fact, I'm not absolutely sure that her ashes are even there. I can't remember whether the granite marker has anything underneath it.)

Similarly, there's nothing sacred about the ground under or near the World Trade Center site. "Sacred" exists within the minds of human beings, not in objective reality. So I don't like all this talk about hallowed ground.

There's no such thing as hallowed ground, sacred ground, holy ground.

There only are people who feel that some places are hallowed, sacred, or holy. So it'd be a lot better if the debate over the mosque didn't include any "hallow" talk. Then we could focus on the real issues -- not supernaturalism.

Comments

[The Rambling Taoist]

Agreed. Ground is ground and dirt is dirt.

Besides, if we truly treated each parcel of earth where a being has died a horrible death as a hallowed space, we couldn't build anywhere. Every step we take reins down "terror" on some species of being.

What would we do if all the ants of the world rose up to demand we not build schools or churches on their "hallowed grounds"? I guess we'd have to start building on the moon!

[somebody]

very very true

[Willie R.]

As long as we are regarding current events through a pragmatic lens, let us consider a demonstrable, factual situation that is slowly and, apparently, inevitably manifesting itself.

The birth rate among Caucasians is dwindling. The statistical factor worked out as being the minimum birth rate necessary in order to sustain a "culture" is on the order of 2.13 (unsure of the numbers to the right of the decimal point, but it is relatively small). The current calculated birth rate among Caucasians is on the order of 1.9 - not enough to remain the dominant group.

The birth rate among the dark-skinned races, especially Moslems, is close to twice the birth rate of Caucasians. And not because of some Divine injunction that Caucasians should be overwhelmed.

Although the (slightly paraphrased) words of Colonel Khadafy "It appears as though Allah is granting us a victory without us having to fire a single shot".

The United States is essentially "finished". There is no turning back. Go figure.

[tucson]

The big deal is that it is insensitive to place a mosque so near a place where thousands were killed by radical elements of Islam. Forget the "hallowed ground" nomenclature. This is common sense.

The mosque "cultural center" is controversial and it hasn't even been built yet. It will always be controversial. The 24/7 security costs to protect the building will be huge if they can find a union crew to build the thing in the first place, which is unlikely. Think how many Timmothy McVeigh's will try to blow the thing up. Sorry, that's just how it is. People will dedicate their lives figuring out a way to do it.

If muslims really want to promote good will and harmony they will understand this and move the mosque to one of the sites offered a few blocks further away. Why not? That would be a very smart PR move by the muslims. People will say, "Oh, Muslims aren't so radical and uncompromising as we thought. Maybe they're not so bad after all."

Why, if they are interested in promoting good will would they insist on building at such a controversial location?

Moderate muslims may not see it this way, but the radical elements will view the mosque as a monument to what they perceive as a great victory against the Great Satan. Do we want them to have that satisfaction? They would be jumping for joy. Did you know that mosques are often built at sites of great muslim victories?

Mosque at ground zero? Bad idea.

[tAo]

i don't agree at all.

911 and the destruction of the WTC and the tragic death of those thousands of people, was not caused by a mere handful of arabs armed with little box-cutters.

the suspicion and evidence leads entirely in another direction... towards the zionist israeli mossad in colusion with criminal elements within the us govt.

do you know how many people have died as a direct result of bush and the neocons - using 911 as a false-flag pretense - invasion and war in afghanistan and iraq?? ...upwards to 2 MILLION people!

and then there is also that serious matter of the erosion of the us constitution and bill of rights since 911... in the form of the patriot act, the elimination of habeus corpus, the military commissions act, illegal torture, spying, etc... and more recently the obama move to disarm us citizens and curtail free speech, and the trillions of taxpayers dollars handed over to the super-rich globalist bankers.

people who still foolishly think that 911 was perpetrated by a handful of (cia trained) arabs, are grossly uninformed and/or brainwashed by govt propaganda, greatly aided by the mainsteam media.

do you know who controls almost all of the worlds money and finacial system, and also all of the mainstream media?

just take a guess. (clue: its certainly not the moslems, or the hindus, or the christians)

[no body]

what is interesting to note is that christianism and islam as are sister religions
Furthermore, they both believe in jesus as a rendeemer and as the person,god, who will come in a second coming. As a matter of fact the muslims believe that jesus will return to judge and fight evil. The only difference is that they believe that he was mortal -a much more logical thinking- and that he was a muslim...well a follower of the semitic law...same thing fyi. Judaism Christianity and Islam form a triangular religious complext based, more or less, on the same principles, cosmogony, and apocalyptic scenarios, rejecting in turn re-incarnation etc.

Brian, excellent article. Tuscon I do not see your point. There are 1 billion muslims in the world..who are these radicals? These radicals are the enemies of more free thinking muslims and the only way to "help" them so to say, is through dialogue..mature dialogue. The same radical spirit exists within the christian world and hebrew world. Besides...tAo is perfectly correct when he says that there are serious issues with Who Brought Down the WTC. It was radicals from both sides. I agree with his post completely.

From wiki:

Traditional Muslims believe that Jesus will return at a time close to the end of the world. The Qur'anic verse they allude to as an indicator to Jesus' future return is as follows:[5]

“ “And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.”[Qur'an 43:61] ”

According to Islamic tradition which describes this graphically, Jesus' descent will be in the midst of wars fought by the Mahdi (lit. "the rightly guided one"), known in Islamic eschatology as the redeemer of Islam, against the Antichrist (al-Masīkh ad-Dajjāl, "false messiah") and his followers.[24] Jesus will descend at the point of a white arcade, east of Damascus, dressed in yellow robes – his head anointed. He will then join the Mahdi in his war against the Dajjal. Jesus, considered in Islam as a Muslim, will abide by the Islamic teachings. Eventually, Jesus will slay the Dajjal, and then everyone from the people of the book (ahl al-kitāb, referring to Jews and Christians) will believe in him. Thus, there will be one community, that of Islam.[25]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the 'pigs', and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).

After the death of the Mahdi, Jesus will assume leadership. This is a time associated in Islamic narrative with universal peace and justice. Islamic texts also allude to the appearance of Ya'juj and Ma'juj (known also as Gog and Magog), ancient tribes which will disperse and cause disturbance on earth. God, in response to Jesus' prayers, will kill them by sending a type of worm in the napes of their necks.[24] Jesus' rule is said to be around forty years, after which he will die. Muslims will then perform the funeral prayer for him and then bury him in the city of Medina in a grave left vacant beside Muhammad, Abu Bakr, and Umar (companions of Muhammad and the first and second Muslim caliphs respectively).[5]

whatever...

[Bob]

To continue along the same lines as Tao,
here are a few facts I recently found regarding the whole 911 scam:

1) The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Osama Bin Laden to the 911 terrorist attacks.

2) The World Trade Center dust had the chemical signature of thermite, which is a very high powered explosive.

3) Molten metal was found in the WTC rubble. This metal could have only been formed from temperatures far-exceeding the capacity of a jet fuel-based fire.

4) Seismic activity was recorded before the collapse of each tower.

5) Now get this! Fox, CBS, and the BBC all reported on Buidling 7s collapse twenty minutes before it occurred.

This whole affair has way too many unanswered questions.

Bob

[tucson]

Nobody said,

"Tuscon I do not see your point."

--My point is that it might be a wise, polite gesture in light of the feelings of many people to move the mosque a couple of blocks away. Just a couple of blocks. Nothing difficult to understand.

--tAo, I am not sure the jews per se are behind all this although I agree with much of what you said about the recent erosion of our rights and the unnecessary wars.

However, and we all must consider this. 911 may be a conspiracy of satanists within the Vatican coupled with satanic jews, neo-cons, the Black Dragon Society, George Bush, the Yakuza and M16 who are endeavoring to bring down the world financial system in order to usher in a new currency which they control and will establish Satan's rule of the West.

[tAo]

i am not going to go into this anymore. either you are open to what really happened, or you accept the offical lies.

the evidence all leads away from the official us govt and mainstream media 'conspiracy theory'.

much of the evidence leads to the israeli mossad, the pnac neo-cons and certain covert elements within the us govt, and the zionists who own the media.

the WTC (and building 7) was not brought down by planes but rather by pre-set high-explosives, there is no eveice that the pentagon was ever hit by a 757 passenger jet... and there are literally hundreds more serious problems with the official 911 propaganda and lies.

just go do the research, or go to honest people who have done the research. the truth is there to be discovered if you are willing to stop being deceived by the lies.

[tucson]

Well, that may be but the zionists have been thwarted by rival Vatican Satanists and the most corrupt regime in the history of the United States which has managed to avert a planned return to constitutional law thanks to a massive campaign of bribery, blackmail and death threats. However, sources high in the CIA and the NSA both affirm that a secret decision has been made not to allow Obama to finish his presidency. The Federal Reserve Board crime syndicate will also not last beyond his presidency, the sources say. The secret battle now remains focused on forcing the Federal Reserve Board to cash over $1 trillion in bonds they owe to the rest of the global financial system.
Much of the intrigue over the $1 trillion was reported by certain sources because of the need to make the information public. It can now be said with certainty that the Catholic Church, or more specifically a small group of Satan worshippers near the top of its hierarchy are doing everything they can to prevent the announcement of the new financial system.
Massive international raids against Catholic offices, most notably in Belgium, have been accompanied by death threats against the hundreds of witnesses in the case. Multiple death threats and assassination attempts have also been made by the Vatican Satanists who are trying to prevent the launch of the new financial system.
The proponents of the new financial system, for their part, remain optimistic and believe funds will be made available possibly this week to finance a campaign against poverty, environmental destruction and war. The government of Portugal as well as senior Latin American, North American and some European Catholic clergy are also now supporting the new financial system. However, we have been given so many promises of “imminent” release of funds we no longer pay serious attention to them. Nonetheless, the various sources directly involved in trying to start the new financial system are more optimistic than at any time since the inception of their scheme in 2006. These sources include Senior NSA, CIA, MI6 and Japanese financial authorities.
The Chinese communist government, for its part, seems to have also finally given up trying to deal with the Federal Reserve Board. Their July 4th Xinhua news front page feature noted blistering economic growth in Brazil, India, China and most of the non-G7 world. The editorial also makes it clear China and the rest of the world have no intention of accepting cosmetic reforms of existing international financial institutions like the IMF and the World Bank.
Meanwhile the criminal regime in Washington D.C. continues to try to create mayhem and destruction. The ongoing, deliberate, ecological destruction of the Gulf of Mexico is a sign how far these criminally insane people are willing to go.
The complete arrogance with which Goldman Sachs, BP and Halliburton carried out insider trading before the oil well blew in the gulf is also a sign of desperation. By carrying out such obviously criminal insider trading maneuvers like selling BP stock and buying up the world’s largest oil spill clean-up firm before the crisis began, the Wall Street Banksters exposed themselves to inevitable arrest.
The real worry is what other criminally insane acts these people plan to carry out before they are finally removed from power. The Satanists have, through several different messengers, threatened to set off the Pacific ring of volcanic fire.
The fact they have not done so since making the first threat in 2006 may be a sign that sane people are now in control of the US HAARP facilities.
We also now need to be on the alert for psychological warfare and fake incidents. The attempt to start a war in the Korean peninsula by sinking a South Korean ship and blaming it on North Korea has failed. The ongoing efforts to start a war between Israel and Iran are also now stalled because the Israeli authorities have finally realized it is just a trap.
It is hard to guess what these criminals will try next but it seems they may finally be getting ready to pull out their fake alien card. High-level Luciferians claim they have opened a portal in the Swiss mountains and have been letting various “benevolent entities” enter our world in preparation for a world dictatorship due to start in 2013. These European Satan worshippers remain one of the main obstacles to the new financial system. They claim biblical end time disasters are inevitable between now and 2012. High level teams are now moving against this group.
The overall situation now seems to be one of continuing stalemate at the highest levels. Secret meetings due in August will be planning for another autumn move against the Federal Reserve Crime syndicate.
In any case, residents of North America and Europe need to be reminded the current “financial crisis” is only happening in Europe and the US. The rest of the world is humming along just fine because they are no longer under the control of Satan worshipping, criminally insane plutocrats. The Satanic rule of the West will also, beyond any shadow of a doubt, end soon.
Do not worry about specific deadlines but rest assured time is not on their side. This will be a long hot summer for the ruling elite.

;)

[DJ]

Earth to Tao and Tucson,
Your belief in paranoid conspiracy theories make you both sound nutty as a couple of fruitcakes! I mean, sure, the Jews obviously control Hollywood and homosexuals have become a large percentage of Catholic priests so they can molest boys but there aint no grand worldwide conspiracies on the risible level that you 2 loons believe.

[tucson]

Oh yeah DJ? Oh Yeah? We'll see you big meanie!! You can't make this stuff up, or can you?......

The Federal Reserve Board crime syndicate called in their last reserves last week in a desperate Battle of the Bulge maneuver to stave off their inevitable collapse. Their servants in the Bank of Japan and their partners in the European Central Bank and the BIS all promised to squeeze another $1 trillion out of their slave peoples in order to preserve and expand their empire. However, the effort is doomed for the same reason the Battle of the Bulge failed, they do not have the fuel they need.
The owners of the Central Banking crime syndicates have had their way for so long, they are still in a state of denial and confusion about what is happening. For so long they spend billions and trillions while their slave people were forced to use tokens worth tens or hundreds. The result was a complete disconnect between the realms of high finance and the world of the ordinary mortal. What is happening is that the ordinary mortals have woken up.
The so-called Lehman Brothers crisis in 2008 was the beginning of the final chapter for these criminals. When the Russians and the Chinese told the Feds to either pay the money they owed in cash or else face nuclear war, they threatened the Congress with martial law unless they passed the TARP bill to provide $700 billion. The problem is that they were talking $700 billion in real slave currency, not their imaginary fiat currency. Then since that bill passed, the corporate media slaves began doing some math and realized that TARP had ballooned to $23 trillion. Since world GDP is only $60 trillion, the corporate media and financial slaves began to finally wake up and realize something was seriously wrong with the world view being foisted on them. The numbers they are being fed no longer add up and they can do the math. This means the Satanic media and mind control grid is becoming increasingly dysfunctional.
That is why the markets were only fooled for one day by the promise of another illusory $1 trillion to be wrung from the slaves in the West. Instead of being fooled, the market slaves began to actively bet against the Euro. Gold, meanwhile shot up in value. This is the exact opposite of what the would be controllers were planning.
It is like watching a slow-motion train wreck. The Euro and the Federal Reserve Board are both collapsing in slow motion.
The new financial system is almost ready to go. As mentioned before the 90% of US dollar held by non-Americans will be backed by gold and renamed, now likely as Renminbi or people’s currency. The American Republic will be restored and they have already printed their new greenbacks. These will have less international purchasing power than Federal Reserve Debt notes meaning Americans will be forced to buy more American goods and US industry will once again be internationally competitive.
The signs of this change are now everywhere to be seen in the West. The Governor of the Bank of England, for example, publicly warned the US was headed the way of Greece. This was widely reported even in the corporate propaganda news.
The ever spreading criminal investigations of Wall Street also continued to expand. Now the rating agencies are being investigated along with the big Wall Street criminal institutions.
There are also signs of revolt within the secret enforcement establishment. For example, the Black Dragon Society was contacted last week by some Mexicans on the run from CIA hit squads. They said officials working inside the HAARP electro-magnetic weapon facility visited Mexico to warn the Feds were planning to hit Mexico with an earthquake in May. This means the workers at HAARP are starting to revolt, depriving the Satanist Feds of one of their last weapons.
Attempted new fake terror attacks are now being exposed by whistleblowers almost immediately. The latest case is the so called Times square attempted bombing which insiders immediately denounced as a false flag operation aimed at justifying further attacks on Pakistan. Pakistan’s ISI is no longer obeying the CIA as a result of this stupid maneuver.
Also, when the Federal Reserve Board crime syndicate once again tried to order my assassination, I was warned by three different people, one in the CIA, one in MI6 and one in the Yakuza. The Yakuza promptly contacted the two would-be hit men and asked them (politely) to back off. The Yakuza now have in their possession a complete list of all top Federal Reserve Board crime syndicate cronies in Japan.
There is still much I cannot report at the present time in order to protect people’s lives and prevent sabotage. However, I can say that for various technical and logistical reasons the announcement of the new financial system is still going to take a bit more time.
In the meantime, please enjoy watching the demise of an ancient Satanic crime syndicate and the dawn of freedom for humanity. The day the top bosses of Federal Reserve Board crime syndicate, their cronies in Washington and in the corporate propaganda media go to jail is not far off.

Now I must stop because the wife has just pulled a fresh pan of fruitcake from the oven.

If you got this far I commend you, but the joke is over.

;)

[tAo]

DJ,

the facts are the facts, and they have nothing to do with "paranoid conspiracy theories". your knee-jerk reaction shows that you are obviously quite uninformed and blind.

as i said, this is not about jews. and hollywood is only a mere part of the greater mainstream media. so you must apparently have tunnel-vision.

moreover, you clearly know very little, if anything at all, about the globalist agenda, or about who controls the money and the mainstream media and even governments. you are a sucker for the lies that are being fed to society.

and you will no doubt continue in your foolish but willful ignorance, until the day of your rude awakening arrives. and like many others of your ilk, you won't be laughing anymore.

[Bob]

DJ,

Your statement saying that Tao and Tucson sound as nutty as a couple of fruitcakes for believing in what you call “paranoid conspiracy theories” reflects your apparent lack of knowledge on the works of the global elite that hunger more than anything else to undermine the very freedom and liberty we value as a sovereign nation. In fact, they hate those of use that believe in freedom, liberty, and limited government intervention.

DJ, these guys are the scum of the earth – with an insatiable thirst for complete control over every aspect of our lives. I kid you not! In an effort to serve their ambitions for a global empire, these scum dogs wouldn’t hesitate to sell into slavery you, me and our families.

Their ambition is to create an elitist-run world government by controlling banking (Federal Reserve), government, medicine, education, eugenics (yes, population control – to 1 billion people), phony philanthropy, and false environmentalism.

They have infiltrated many branches of the government to further their globalist agenda including the Departments of Education, Treasury, and State. They are very keen on being involved with foreign policy. They are deeply involved in the environmental movement as a means of establishing international laws and increase taxation.

And, not only the above, but they have infiltrated the New Age Movement in an effort to gain sympathy for global unity (under their control, of course).

While some of their goals may appear worthwhile on the surface, their plans would inevitably be accompanied by a loss of personal and sovereign freedom and the reestablishment of considerably restraints that this country fought against during the American Revolution.

So, I encourage you to learn more about this topic so you can be part of the solution and help preserve the freedoms that we value as a nation and people.

Keep in mind that the globalists operate in “stealth” mode - using very subtle means of persuasion to get you to believe in their agenda.

The environmental movement is a perfect example. I mean who doesn’t want clean power, water, alternative energy, etc. But underneath the smiling face, is a ruthless killer. Yes, its “psychological warfare”!

Some good sources of info that I recommend are:

Book: The Triumph of Consciousness –Overcoming false environmentalism, lapdog media, and global government by Christopher James Clark.

Alex Jones at http://www.infowars.com/

The Power Hour - http://www.thepowerhour.com/faqs.htm

Selected Interviews at Conscious Media Network –
http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/

Bob

[Deepak Kamat]

So even US is a sucker for Islamic terrorism. Ha Ha Ha.

[Mike in Wisconsin]

Perhaps we don't need another mosque, church, temple, ashram or any of that other nonsense near Ground Zero or anywhere else on Earth. Organized religion (any sect) consumes way too many resources and provides little of value in return. However, I can think of a few nice Catholic buildings that could be converted into some really nice restaurants, galleries, and bookstores...

[Bob]

So, Mike from WI,

You're in favor of laws banning religion? And, if so, whose choice is that going to be?

Bob

[Mike from Wisconsin]

Bob,

I simply stated that I don't favor the construction of any more religious buildings.
I never mentioned laws banning religion or anything else.

[Bob]

Mike,

OK, I understand your point better now.

Bob