Attempt to kill the RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh, fails

I just got an email message from a friend about an attempt in Vienna, Austria to assassinate Gurinder Singh, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), which is headquartered in the Punjab, India.

I was an active member of RSSB for over thirty-five years and volunteered several times for security work at large meetings in the United States and Canada where Gurinder Singh gave talks.

At a Honolulu session in the 1990s I remember getting the job of peering into trash receptacles and such to search for explosive devices. This seemed sort of unnecessary to me at the time.

After reading a translation of the Punjabi newspaper story about the July 28 attempt to kill Gurinder Singh, obviously it wasn't. For quite a while fundamentalist Sikh extremists have been threatening gurus in the Punjab who don't conform to their notions of what "true" Sikhism is.

This is another instance of how dogmatic religiosity leads to people doing crazy things. Here's the story that was sent to me. I've copied in the English translation below.
Download Attempt on Baba Ji's Life in Vienna

English Translation of the Jagg Bani Punjabi Newspaper Article

Assassination attempt on Dera Radha Soami Chief Foiled

Vienna Police arrests four persons; Baba Gurinder Singh Ji is unharmed; continues Satsang program.

Jalandhar, July 28 (Report by Dhawan)

Today an attempt on the life of Baba Gurinder Singh, Leader of Radha Soami Beas, was foiled by the Vienna Police in Austria.  Police arrested four persons carrying explosives with them.

According to news obtained from Vienna, Baba Gurinder Singh was going to hold satsang in a hall.  Vienna Police had been tipped off before the arrival of the extremists and had tightened security around the meeting hall.

It is said that the Police nabbed the four suspects in the parking lot of the hall.  Baba Gurinder Singh is absolutely fine and later he gave satsang to the audience.

Previously some people of Indian origin had fatally shot Sant Rama Nand, the leader of Dera Sachkhand (of Ballan in Punjab) in Vienna and his companion Sant Niranjan Das was injured.  Since that assassination attempt the Vienna Police had been on high alert during all programs of satsangs held by Indian Spiritual Gurus.  Unconfirmed reports say that the Police recovered hand grenades from the suspects. 

Another report says that the suspects were wearing Security Employees’ Uniforms so that they could enter the hall unnoticed.  Baba Gurinder Singh is on foreign trip to meet with his followers.  It is reported that after the arrests of the suspects, a high alert is in place and Baba Gurinder Singh has been provided with extra security during his stay in Europe.

Comments

[Gypriot Satsangi]

Radha Soami to all.
I was among the lucky ones to attend to Baba Ji's satsangs in Athens - Greece last week. I have been initiated by Maharaj Charan Singh Ji and thanks to His Grace I have seen Him once before His departure from this world.
What I would like to say is that -to me- is pointless to make such a fuss and spend so much time in discussions as to whether Baba Ji or anybody else (Guru or Yogi or Sufi or whatever) is real or not. My strong belief is that this realisation is something that comes right from within by His Grace and by our honest effort to achieve self realization and then God realization.
Regarding the big fuss again about Baba Ji's involvement in shares of Religare etc and of his 2 sons, please don't forget that it has happened in the past that a Master was born a king or a prince as well as again a poor man. maybe Regligare is something more than what it seems to be. Maybe its purpose of existence serves other goals of what people think.. Just think if for example Baba ji's son to work for a crook boss who would have force him to do things not decent i.e. cheating and using unacceptable methods or force him to make use of his father's position as a Guru..........
So don't hurry to draw conclusions so easily because as Kant said: "Things are not as they look like",
Radha Soami to all satsangis here in this forum and yes WE ARE LUCKY to have still a living Master among us.

[tAo]

Gypriot Satsangi:

"to me- is pointless to make such a fuss and spend so much time in discussions as to whether Baba Ji or anybody else (Guru or Yogi or Sufi or whatever) is real or not."

-- this comment is pointless. and if you don't like discussions, then don't participate in them.

"this realisation is something that comes right from within by His Grace and by our honest effort to achieve self realization and then God realization."

-- thats only your opinion. i regrd it as delusional. and so-called realization is a myth.

"please don't forget that it has happened in the past that a Master was born a king or a prince as well as again a poor man."

-- you have no idea what you are talking about. there are no masters, except those who have self-mastery. you have a slave mentality. and the RS leader was not born a king, nor did he earn any wealth... it was given to him. and he is involved in a conflict of interest... which makes him a hypocrite and corrupt.

"maybe Regligare is something more than what it seems to be. Maybe its purpose of existence serves other goals of what people think."

-- oh yeah sure. thats a load of rubbish.

"think if for example Baba ji's son to work for a crook boss [...] or force him to make use of his father's position as a Guru."

-- but that is exactly what he is doing. you are obviously an apologist for the guru cult scam.

"So don't hurry to draw conclusions so easily because as Kant said: "Things are not as they look like"

-- yes... just like your guru is really not what he wants to appear to be.

"and yes WE ARE LUCKY to have still a living Master"

-- i'd say that you are quite UN-LUCKY. you have nothing, nothing but a naive childish fantasy, an illusion. you will very likely end up faced with a very rude awakening someday.

[No-body]

This is a response to many in here.

tao,

explicit and direct question to you.

Do you believe in Aliens,,,and do u believe that there are alien or lets say reptiles amongst us, who control government and organizations. Do you believe that there are beings from outer space who contact human beings, either malevolent or good in heart who are involved in our day to day activities. Moreover, if the answer is somewhat vaguely yes, then tell me which authors.beings that post online etc you advice people to listen to. For example, David Icke, Ra, Wilcott etc. I know you posted something about this issue on the past.

Secondly, I found this remark by someone called Ander who was critiquing Brian on this site.

Ander wrote:

"Brian on "Ridiculing my own Religious Fundamentalism"
July 12th 2007

-- Initiated disciples (satsangis) were supposed to meditate 2 ½ hours a day. I'd set a timer on my watch. Before midnight I'd make sure that it registered 150 minutes of meditation time. Sometimes I'd stare at the seconds going by until I could hit the stop button after the magic 150th minute passed. Not exactly deep concentrated meditation, but I was precisely obeying the letter of the RSSB law, which gave me great fundamentalist satisfaction

Brian said on this post:
"I meditated every day for over thirty years. Give me a break. Many of those years, for the prescribed two and a half hours. I've been a disciple. I've walked the walk. I just never had the experiences that RSSB claims a disciple will have in meditation."

"Minute Counting yoga" and "Surat Shabd yoga" are two very different types of meditation."

AGAIN!!! IN RECENT DAYS you insist...you insist...with the same rhetoric.

Brian August 16 2010

"For about thirty-five years, from age 20 to 55 (I'm now sixty-one), I meditated assiduously in accordance with the tenets of Radha Soami Satsang Beas -- an India-based guru-centered organization whose teachings claim to be able to unite the soul with God.

However, what I learned from my immersion in the deep waters of organized religosity is applicable to almost every sort of spiritual path (to mix watery and earthy metaphors)."

let me re-peat what brian wrote on july 12 2007.

"Sometimes I'd stare at the seconds going by until I could hit the stop button after the magic 150th minute passed. Not exactly deep concentrated meditation, but I was precisely obeying the letter of the RSSB law, which gave me great fundamentalist satisfaction"

This is not what the RSSB law says. The RSSB says if you read the books and listen to the guru, that 10 minutes loving and concentrated meditation is better than 5 hours of abstract...concentration..."Not exactly deep concentrated meditation" as Brian says. Mira mi amigo...Cut the bs...at least,...at least...be straight.
What I just wrote where your words not mine and I am deeply sorry that I was forced to repeat them to you...It is what you scientifically oriented people like to say...as SCIENTIFIC FACTS.

NO CONCENTRATED LOVING MEDITATION= SAMSARA OF THE MIND.end of the story.
(Sorry for the caps btw)

[[[Furthermore...To tao, Tuscon and Brian,Tara.
You deny the existence of an inner shabd?? Fro crying out loud...Say anything you want..follow any buddhist and zen medi. you want..but if deny that an inner shabd exists,,,I tell you my friends,,you are all idiots. Idiots with the etymological sense.]]

Furthermore as Adam says on | July 29, 2008 at 03:34 AM in responce to the exact same comment by Ander:

"RSSB never claims all disciples will have experiences. It is clear, according to letters by Charan Singh, that a disciple who has not made much progress, but has done his/her duty (meditation, sticking to the vows, generally putting in a good faith effort) that this person is still successfully following the path. Our expectations of success and failure can allow us to interpret whether or not meditation is working or not, which may or may not be true.

This is to suggest that when people say "I have been meditating for thirty years and..." as if this makes them an expert, they might want to rethink this. Playing golf for thirty years doesn't ensure results when you step out onto the golf course today..."

I agree 100%.

And then you, Brian, asnwer with a very confusing message..(Brian | July 31, 2008 at 09:15 AM) to Ander

"Ander, I agree. This points out the ridiculousness of the meditation vow."

-Excuse me? What are we talking about here if not mediation, contemplation. Everything in life is meditation, from taking a sh...to throwing hoops. Please man. The two and half hourse is just to say, give 10% of your day to meditation and when you retire give 50%.

Then you said

"Yet it is indeed a vow. At the time of initiation you don't commit to meditate for as long as you can concentrate fully -- which could be for five or ten minutes."

-This does not really make sense. Again you contradict yourself.You are actually correct but in an already contradictory self indulging crying discourse. You like to complain basically. If you want experiences pop another acid from the 60s or do a peyote trip. Try Salvia.

Then you, Brian, say,

"No, RSSB says that two and a half hours of meditation is the thing, regardless of the degree of concentration. (However, Charan Singh said that ten minutes of "real" meditation is much better, a point I'd make frequently in my satsang talks.)"

-Again, ultimate confusion. Who is this RSSB guy. Find him and kill him. If your Fuc*** Guru says this...then stick to what your Fuck*** said. I have never met RSSB I do not know him. ALL the books from the masters place more attention to concentration than the 2.5 hours. Again you are being literal. The 2.5 hours is to give 10% of your day. Many paths advice half an hour, others advice ten minutes in the morning. Others advice long retreats. Sant mat advices to make it PART OF YOUR LIFE.The two and half hours indicate just that. To make it part of yours daily life. Dont split hair, kill RSSB and listen to the Guru that initiated not to your imaginary friend that is called RSSB.

Now lets move to TUSCON:
Another explicit question. You write nice poems, non dualist pretty poems. Pretty is the word. The nice sunsets in AZ make good coctails with the local cannabis.

Question: Do you eat meat?

Love to you all.

ps.Cypriot Satsangi..You are correct in what you are saying. but this blog, has been going on for so long that if you do not know the inconsistencies that each each person who critiques Santmat possess in their writtings is difficult to argue. For example, the treatment you received from Tao is normal. He has the same exact text for everyone. They all wake up in the morning and meditate on this churchless blog and with acute concetration try to destroy anyone who writes something loving the Master. Its poinless to try. Its also a waste of time to go back in the archive to find this inconsistencies. Take my word. They are confused, crying babies who have a problem with the sacred and are stuck up with the profane. Just like a Holywood movie.

My advice to you B, T, T, T is to go GS and apologize.

[Brian Hines]

No-body, I'm impressed that you spend so much time reading my blog posts. Gee, you know more about what I've written than I do. If I ever can't remember something I've said, I guess I can ask you.

Keep it up. If you continue opening your mind to fresh ideas, some cool breezes of reality might blow in.

[tAo]

nodody,

you asked:

"tao, explicit and direct question to you. Do you believe in Aliens,,,and do u believe that there are alien or lets say reptiles amongst us, who control government and organizations."

-- no, i do not "believe" in aliens, or that alien reptiles control government.

"Do you believe that there are beings from outer space who contact human beings, either malevolent or good in heart who are involved in our day to day activities."

-- i do not know whether or not there are beings from outer space... so no, i don't "believe".

"tell me which authors.beings that post online etc you advice people to listen to."

-- i don't advise people to listen to any online "authors".

"For example, David Icke, Ra, Wilcott etc."

-- i am not familar with those people you mention, with the exception of Icke who is somewhat well known. but i don't follow his theories, nor have i advised anyone to listen to him.

"I know you posted something about this issue on the past."

-- i really don't think so. and i am pretty sure about that. i don't even know what issue you are referring to. perhaps you could be a bit more specific?

i think you are mistaken. the only person that i know that i have mentioned in the past is alex jones and his infowars.com radio talk show. but alex jones does not ever talk about aliens from outer space. not even remotely.

"This is not what the RSSB law says."

-- is there an RSSB "law"?? i don't think so.

"To tao, Tuscon and Brian,Tara. You deny the existence of an inner shabd??

-- well is there an "inner shabd"?? maybe, and maybe not.

"follow any buddhist and zen medi. you want..but if deny that an inner shabd exists,,,I tell you my friends,,you are all idiots."

-- not all teachings and meditations accept this notion of shabd. and just because you say and believe in shabd, does not make other people idiots. as a matter of fact, it quite narrow-minded of you.

"a disciple who has not made much progress, but has done his/her duty (meditation, sticking to the vows, generally putting in a good faith effort) that this person is still successfully following the path."

-- well thats one opinion of success.

"Who is this RSSB guy. Find him and kill him. If your Fuc*** Guru says this...then stick to what your Fuck*** said."

-- i don't care what your guru or anyone says.

"listen to the Guru that initiated not to your imaginary friend that is called RSSB."

-- thats for you to do. i don't listen to gurus or to the rssb cult.

"Question: Do you eat meat?"

-- i eat whatever god provides.

"Cypriot if you do not know the inconsistencies that each each person who critiques Santmat possess in their writtings is difficult to argue."

-- and what exactly are these nconsistencies?

"the treatment you received from Tao is normal. He has the same exact text for everyone."

-- that is hardly the case. no two comments are exactly the same.

"They all [...] with acute concetration try to destroy anyone who writes something loving the Master."

-- thats only natural. thats the yin and the yang of it. the harder they come, the harder they fall.

"They are confused, crying babies who have a problem with the sacred and are stuck up with the profane."

-- you mean those crying satsangi babies? furthermore, i don't think you would recognize the sacred if it hit you right smack in the face.

beauty is in the eye (and mind) of the beholder. so maybe these videos will help you:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Unasleep#g/c/145C5B3AACF24979

"My advice to you [...] go GS and apologize."

-- i don't owe that guy a damn thing. far from it. that guy has no more importance than anyone. his type is not even worthy of licking the dust off my shoes. moreover, it is GS who should apologise to all his foolish followers for his massive false pretense and hypocisy and deception.

[Mike Williams]

"Nietzsche went insane trying to oppose Christian values
of empathy and kindness. Ironically, his last sane emotion
was that of empathy when he saw a horse collapse under
the weight of a cart in Vienna and held horse's head and
wept."
quote poster

The Christians had their Inquistions, which killed
a few million in Europe. But, their greatest atrocity came
with Columbus. When Columbus arrived in the New World
there were a group of people called the Tainos Indians.
Very beautiful white skinned Indians.

There were 8 million of them, which was greater than
the population of England at the time. Columbus had them
slaughtered, such that by the time Cortez arrived shortly
after they were completely extinct. Ferdinand and Isabella
were heavy Pope supporters.

Millions more Indians were killed on the main American
continents before it was over. All from Christians chasing
gold.

Columbus took some Indians back for Queen Isabella, whom
stated they could not be made into slaves.

After Columbus 3rd voyage, Ferdinand had Columbus brought
back in chains to Spain. He had created an ecological disaster
on his main island he was govenor.

Ferdinand stripped Columbus of his monetary compensation.
Columbus was so distraught he lived wearing the black robe
of a monk back in Spain. When Columbus died, not even his small
hometown newspaper, posters in those days, printed the notice
of his death.

For a few centuries no one knew whom Columbus was. When Napoleon
invaded Spain, one of his commanders needed padding for his horse
to stay warm. He accidently pulled out the archive on Columbus
and used the pages. When he realized what he had, he sent them to
Napoleon.

This is the reason we know about Columbus now a days.

Ironically, Napoleon invaded the Vatican and put the Pope
in jail after taking his money. He took the Pope out
of jail to perform his marriage to Josephine.

Napoleon was atheist. But, he had to choose if Spain would
go Protestant, or Catholic. He chose Catholic.

"Give a savage a watch and he believes it has a soul."
quote Napoleon

Later, Mother Teresa showed up in India. It was found out
she was an atheist. Now the Church wants to make her a Saint,
but are in a dilemna.

Members tell the Pope he could deem her "the Atheist Saint".

"If God is not, Jesus cannot be."
quote Mother Teresa

An atheist like Nietzsche grabs the dying horses head
in compassion.

Atheism has nothing to do with evil. They can be more
ethical and kind than the religious.

Religion and atheism are mutually exclusive when
it comes to goodness. The religious like to think
atheism creates evil to boost their theory.

It doesn't work.

----------------------

[Alok]

see there are some comments given by Mr.Pawan Kumar. I fully agree with the comments given. Sanatan Parampara is great and all these people (deras)difinitely are destroying our old culture. They not even destroy but also abuse to lord. I have gone and heard. 100% comments of Mr Pawan are true. We should not go such Places and avoid from such people

[tucson]

Nobody,

You wrote: "Now lets move to TUSCON:
Another explicit question. You write nice poems, non dualist pretty poems. Pretty is the word. The nice sunsets in AZ make good coctails with the local cannabis. Question: Do you eat meat?"

--Nobody, you may have me mixed up with someone else. I usually don't write poems here.

You imply that these non-dualist poems are the product of cannabis intoxication. Why?

You sure are right about the beautiful Arizona sunsets. This time of year during the monsoon they are spectacular to say the least!

There was no failure or success for me in Sant Mat. It just sloughed away like a snake sheds its skin. It no longer applied. RSSB was like training wheels on a bike. I don't need them anymore. Besides, if you believe RS teachings you must know that there are no failures in Sant Mat. I'm just fullfilling my karmic destiny as administered by the all-powerful guru, right? Same with Brian, Tara, tAo and others. So why be concerned? It's karma, man. Leave it up to the guru and his mysterious ways. Shouldn't you be attending to your simran and bhajan rather than wasting your precious human life commenting on a blog inhabited by manmukhs (worldly people who follow the dictates of their minds rather than the guru).

IMHO RSSB is absurd, dishonest and the gurus are frauds. Charan was a pleasant fraud, but a fraud is a fraud. This is just my opinion so don't get your feathers ruffled. I'm just a guy typing on the blog.

I have heard sounds during meditation ranging from tinkling bells to thunderous booms combined with bright light. Was it Shabd? I don't know. These experiences didn't confer deep insights. I was the same shlub after these visons as I am now.

Yes, I eat meat with some regret that an animal was killed, but I am healthier for it. I thank the animals for the nourishment they provide. I feed this body with the food I have found it is best adapted to utilize. My body does not recognise tofu as food but rather as a foreign invader that must be destroyed. Same with milk products and beans to a lesser degree. But what does that have to do with anything?

[Somebody]

no brian
It is very simple

youy google the following

"churchless brian meditation two and half hours "

Its the second result "Scrupulosity, a religious mental illness"

In fact i google something else, close to that, and hit on another persons post of this.

Its the scientific method which you like so much. A pharmakon which has double properties. Its your words. My problem is that with the attitude of a thousand monkeys you claim this and that this and that...hidding the incosistencies in the realm of time. Its all online dude, for anyone to search. For the young dudes that know HOW and what to search, and what to type is litteraly a piece of cake.
older folks its a

THUS:

You wrote,

"No-body, I'm impressed that you spend so much time reading my blog posts."

Answer- I spent 10 minutes.

"Gee, you know more about what I've written than I do."
Answer: Apparently

You then said

"If I ever can't remember something I've said, I guess I can ask you."

Answer: I will teach you how to search own your own, for your own internet memory bank and make both of our lives easier. Its all online on the internet akashic records.

"Keep it up. If you continue opening your mind to fresh ideas, some cool breezes of reality might blow in."
Answer - Given the explanations above this falls into the category of sarcastic and condescending comments who wish to depreciate my motives and personhood.

The good knews is that YOU are not your Webpage
You are not your thoughts either..but that is another story. I actually posted what i posted with sadness. not with feelings of vengeance. You may not believe it. I wanted to sent it as private message...but..I last moment i changed my mind. Respect to you, to your blog, to your wonderfull writting style, to your search for truth. We are strugggling souls as CS used to say.

Tao...A video will not help you nor me or anyone else. Grow up. I actually started watching it...and dear god...You must be joking. Its crap. The video is a joke in itself. You still read books and watch silly new age videos online?
From the opening scene of one of the videos from ´unasleep.com"

The scene opens with a lovely womans voice who sounds as if she is on antidepressants... the planet earth and a text that goes up the screen like a starwars and superman movies...

"Three things cannot be long hidden,,,sun the moon and the truth.zzzzzzz"

Get a new responce narrative. The one you pocess is boring and too defensive. Really,,,very defensive. Sounds like G W Bush on crack chasing the shadow of Osama.
"I eat what god provides" Grow up. God is a concept in your head. And so are you. And so I am for you. And so am I. These are just letters on the screen. And shabd exists...not maybe or maybe not. It exists and its real Force. You dont like the meditation, do something else.Simple and mature.

Peace out boys and girls

[Brian Hines]

Somebody, we're all the same. You, me, everybody. We're all human beings trying to understand and live life the best we can.

In your comment above you criticize me for sounding sarcastic and condescending to you. Yet you have left several sarcastic and condescending comments about me.

So we're all doing what we do, best we can. Just sharing our crazy ideas on the Internet, having some fun with all this "I'm right and you're wrong" stuff. Not to be taken all that seriously. Except when we want to.

[Cypriot Satsangi]

to Nobody:
Yes, I agree with what you've said. It is not my job to convince people about sant mat or about the Master, whether he is real or unreal since - and it is so - this is coming from right within.
I have just entered this forum because I saw the news about the assassination attempt against Baba Ji.
After I read the comments I just felt it would be useful to send an oposite opinion such as mine in order to discuss.
I really don't want to convince anyboy and this is not my aim but again of what I have read about the shareholding and mpla mpla I put the question:
Do you think that GS would have been so stupid (he seems toooooo clever) and idiot so he would have left his name involved into something which is not ok? Wouldn't he - at least- use some sort of Trustee or smt?

to tAO: needless to discuss with you....have nothing to say to you except that you could have behaved more politely..
:)
Cypriot satsangi

[tAo]

Somebody,

i never said that i need help. i donlt need any help. i merely suggested that you might gain a different perspective by viewing those videos. but apparently you are too closed-minded to do that even.

it is you who obviously needs to "grow up". you definitely seem rather immature and inexperienced. thats pretty apparent.

also... no, i don't read new age books. the videos were for your benefit. and if you did not even bother to view them in their entirety, with an open and non-cynical and non-reactive mind, then you can't expect to gain any real understanding of what they are about.

"God is a concept in your head."

-- fact is, you don't know anything about whats in my head, or where i am at. and so on that score, you are clearly just an arrogant and immature little punk with an attitude problem.

"And shabd exists It exists and its real Force."

-- only in your opinion.

"You dont like the meditation"

-- i have never said that. so you are misrepresenting me. and that is trollish and dishonest.

=====================

Cypriot satsangi,

youy said: "needless to discuss with you"

-- the feeling is mutual.

you said: "have nothing to say to you except that you could have behaved more politely."

-- my comments are sufficiently polite. you just don't have anything of any substance to offer in response.

and btw, if you have something that is relevant to discuss about some aspect of the G.S. & Religare issue, then go ahead and do so.

[a body]

Tao said:

"i never said that i need help.
i donlt need any help. i merely suggested that you might gain a different perspective by viewing those videos. but apparently you are too closed-minded to do that even.

Answer: -I watched your video. You need help everyday of your life. To go from point a to point b. One always needs help in this social earthly life. When your car brakes down, when you are ill, when your fridge stops working, when you act like a fool.

it is you who obviously needs to "grow up". you definitely seem rather immature and inexperienced. thats pretty apparent.

Answer: Obviously. Because I came up with past posts to indicate inconsistencies with ppls arguement. How immature is that. And you need not put grow up in parenthesis. I get the metaphorical meaning.And so does everyone else. Inexperienced in what exactly. How do you know? You know nothing. Which brings me to your next comment.

also... no, i don't read new age books. the videos were for your benefit.

-Again I watched the videos. They are to say the least ok..Is like watching a good spiritual -for luck of a better word-hollywood film, like The Fountain, or the Matrix or whatever else.

and if you did not even bother to view them in their entirety, with an open and non-cynical and non-reactive mind, then you can't expect to gain any real understanding of what they are about.

-A film on a flat screen is entertainment. Thats all folks. Its 2D pixels on a screen making recognizable patterns for people who have been exposed to television in their lives. They can -in our context- at the most, induce you to meditate, in order to experience a 4d or 5d or whatever d environment. again env. for luck of a better word. Porn is 2d and makes some embodily experience a masturbating orgasm. But its not the same as having sweaty sex. And sex, to go on, is also a means to an end. Finishing in a condom or finishing outside is fruitless. The end result of real sex, is a baby in the mothers hands, a real child. A miracle. The end result of sex is a miracle. The end result of masturbating is a lot of cleaning up and waste of energy. And what we are having in this forum, and the entire internet, is mental masturbation, to use woody allens words.

I said:
"God is a concept in your head."

You said:-- fact is, you don't know anything about whats in my head, or where i am at.

-I agree 100%.So is the same with what you about me.Which brings me to your next point where you say.

"and so on that score, you are clearly just an arrogant and immature little punk with an attitude problem."

-I have the attitude problem. You curse and attack 90% of the people who post something. Poorly deconstruct their sentences, and use filthy words to characterise people, but I am the one who has an attitude problem. Clearly you are correct when you say that I do not know whats inside your head.

I said:

"And shabd exists. It exists and its real Force."

You said:
'-- only in your opinion.'

Wrong. Its many many many many many peoples opinion. Many. I will not go down the literature.You read it. And I am not claiming that its real because of the literature. The Sun exists in my opinion.

I said:

"You dont like the meditation"

You said: "-- i have never said that. so you are misrepresenting me. and that is trollish and dishonest. "

Answer: I apologize sincerely then.

then you wrote to the cypriot:

"Cypriot satsangi,

youy said: "needless to discuss with you"

-- the feeling is mutual."

My answer: Why are you even writing this then. Stay quite and prove your words in action, or rather through inaction.

-----------------------------------
Brian

Like I said before, had I not had respect for you I would not spent my time and effort in this blog. I read your books, which required a lot of meditative effort to be written, and which I still recommend to people, especially 'gods whispers'

All I am trying to indicate not to you but to all is to mellow down and realize that the master is not necessarily the one to blame for our inadequacies, but ourselves. Before we point our fingers and accuse and rumble we should sincerely ask whether what we are going to say is True and necessary. All in all, I agree with your last comment in its entirety. We are all the same. But there are some "same" people, who woke up one day and spent 20 years in a cave meditating on the shabd. Twenty years in a dark room...Twenty years... I am willing to Listen to their "opinion" more than someones who has been mentally masturbating in samsara for twenty years. I am also ready to follow their advice more willingly.Call me a fool, call me a sheep, call me anything you want to call me.Call me a slave, a prostitute, a worm, an immature, inexperienced filthy idiot hairless biped.
What I appreciate and what makes me bow my head down is is their gratitute and loving-ness to share the tiniest of fractal fragment of their experience with the people of the people of the world who have been playing samsara while they were still and silent in darkness. Because the tinnnnnniest fractal pattern is a seed that if received, it can grow and grow and grow. Call me a slave for receiving this,, and that is what I am then..a slave. So we may not all be exactly the same. Some are free, and some are slaves. i am the latter.se la vi

[SUBODH]

One thing, if a person want to see hell(nark), make relation(merriage) with RS family he will find such thing in this earth. Their talks are different, their work are different, their thinking is totally different and while making comments on other it can be other gurus or holy granth they do as the truth is only with them. I have seen my relative how his life has gone to hell after making relationship with these people. He cant say RAM-RAM, he cant take part in religious ceremonies, he cant go to mandir, as as per their leader nothing is there in Mandir or other religious place. Even the work to be done at HOME as per teaching of such persons is a BURDON and work to their SATSANG GHAR is sewa. Her husband can be on bed but her sewa is must.
IS IT HUMINITY. ARE THEY LEADING SOCIETY IN SUCH A WAY. ARE THEY NOT MAKING DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE SOCIETY. DO THEY KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT GOD. HEREIN I MUST SAY NO...THEY DONT KNOW ABOUT GOD(an almighty god). They have made their ownself the different LOKS in imagination and teaching to people in wrong way.

[Juan]

Tucson asked in his comments on 9th Aug.2010,Why do you believe what you wrote in your comment above?

......These are the words of the Great Master, Maharaj Charan Singh in his book, The Master Answers. I believe that this is the only stock in trade these masters can offer to hold their existing clients and to attract new clients

[anybody]

Tara,

inconsistencies when you are speaking about mysticism, and accessing other non physical dimensions of beeing are part and part of the way of expressing the teachings. Look at the undeground train map of any major city. IF you take it and try to follow it on land, you will be lost.At the least you will end walking hours and hours because what is shown on the paper as proximate is in fact very distant. You are obviously like the blogger tao immature and inexpierienced. Grow up.
Charan was speaking in the 1960,1970,1980´s- Guriner is speaking in the 1990´s, 2000, 2010, and onwards. Cheese like the river never stays the same. You think the bread that you eat in the usa is the same bread they eat in the middle east. Again grow up. I am conditioned to rationalized the con-fusion. This life is a dream, an illusion. Do you understand this basic teaching. It is fake.It like thinking all your life that you are a human..take that robot guy..Data..on startrek.. and at the end realizing that you are just a machine. Again its a metaphor...a metaphor. Its all an illusion, maya...a dream that one day we all wake up to. Grow up

PARADOXES IN THE LITERATURE. Some on top of my head some copied paste

Form is emptiness, empitness is form

The tao that can be talked about is not the eternal tao

“The words of truth are always paradoxical.” - Lao Tzu

The Tao abides in non-action, Yet nothing is left undone

He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know.

There is a well in heaven with a candle burning upside down

Praise that empitness that gives birth to our existence - Rumi

The unstruck sounds resounds in all creation

We are as pieces of chess engaged in victory and defeat:
our victory and defeat is from thee, O thou whose qualities are comely! (Rumi)

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. (Heraclitus)

I have found the paradox, that if you love until it hurts, there can be no more hurt, only more love. (Tereza)

The world of science lives fairly comfortably with paradox. We know that light is a wave, and also that light is a particle. The discoveries made in the infinitely small world of particle physics indicate randomness and chance, and I do not find it any more difficult to live with the paradox of a universe of randomness and chance and a universe of pattern and purpose than I do with light as a wave and light as a particle. Living with contradiction is nothing new to the human being.
(Madeleine L'Engle)

[anybody]

I apologise,
Since there is a national security filter in this site. I refuse to participate anymore. I wrote ea clear answer to tao which was eliminated. Ciao

[Brian Hines]

anybody, relax. There's no "national security filter" on my blog. The CIA isn't reading your comments. I simply moderate comments to keep spam and "trolls" out. Your comment came in late at night my time. It was lengthy, so I read it this morning after publishing some other shorter comments.

Your comment wasn't eliminated. It simply wasn't published when you expected.

[tAo]

"a body" wrote:

"I watched your video."

-- well it was not just one single video. the presentation was broken up into a series of several videos.

"You need help everyday of your life."
-- no, and you can only speak for and about yourself. you don't know anything about me, so you don't know about my everyday life.

"To go from point a to point b."
-- wrong. i move about on my own just fine. i need no help in doing that.

"One always needs help in this social earthly life."
-- wrong. i have no need for any help in my social relations.

"When your car brakes down"
-- wrong. i no longer have a car. and i was able to fix my own car when i had one.

"when you are ill"
-- wrong. i am very rarely, if ever, "ill". i never get sick, because i don't eat bad food or hang around sick people. and i am quite able to heal myself if the occasion or necessity ever arises. as above, so below.

"when your fridge stops working"
-- wrong. i simply buy a new one.

"I came up with past posts to indicate inconsistencies with ppls arguement."
-- fact is, you have shown no such "inconsitencies".

"How immature is that."
-- its your attitude that is immature. you are not here to engage in any rational discussion. you are here to act trollish and personally belittle and cast aspersions upon the critics and those who question the RS cult and its leader.

"You know nothing."
-- wrong. i simply don't know. i definitely don't know everything, but i do know one or two things. i know that everything is under control; and that everyone is part of the whole.

"They [videos] can -in our context- at the most, induce you to meditate"
-- but i am not concerned with meditation like you are.

"what we are having in this forum, and the entire internet, is mental masturbation"
-- thats merely your own opinion. that is the way it is for you. other people have different views.

"You curse and attack 90% of the people who post something."
-- wrong. i don't "curse" anyone. i don't attack anyone either. i simply present my own opinions and/or intellectual criticisms.

"Poorly deconstruct their sentences, and use filthy words to characterise people"
-- wrong again. i deconstuct better tna most. and the word "punk" is not "filthy". so get your facts straight.

"I am the one who has an attitude problem."
-- yes, that is correct.

"And shabd exists. It exists and its real Force." -and- "Its many many many many many peoples opinion. Many. I will not go down the literature.You read it."
-- i have read it. and i would venture to say that i have read vastly more spiritual and philosophical books and literature over the course of my sixty-some years, than you have. and that also includes all of the sant mat and RS literature that were published up to the mid-1990s. but shabd still remains nothing more than a theory.

"And I am not claiming that its real because of the literature. The Sun exists in my opinion."
-- well the key phrase here is: "in my opinion". so its just your opinion.

"then you wrote to the cypriot: "the feeling is mutual" My answer: Why are you even writing this then. Stay quite and prove your words in action, or rather through inaction."
-- i don't have to do any such thing. i am free to do, and to write, and to express myself as i please. i don't have to "stay quiet", or prove "in action" or "through inaction". i don't dance to your tune.

imo, you seem to be a young santmat/RSSB zealot. but many posters much like you have already come to this blog over the years. if you wish to particiupate in discussing the pros and cons of santmat and the rssb cult and gurus etc, well thats alright... but personal attacks and RS fundamentalism is not cool. just go read the blog commenting policies. also, this blog is not only just about sant mat. this site is not only about RS. not at all. there are many other kinds of subject matter presented (and discussed) here as well.

"All I am trying to indicate not to you but to all is to mellow down and realize that the master is not necessarily the one to blame for our inadequacies, but ourselves."
-- that is not the issue here. the issue is not about us. the issue is about the leader and guru of the rssb, and about his words, his actions, his honesty, his hypocrisy, etc etc.

"Before we point our fingers and accuse and rumble we should sincerely ask whether what we are going to say is True and necessary."
-- well it is necessary to determine the facts and the truth... and that is what these posts and discussions are about.

"I agree with your last comment in its entirety. We are all the same. But there are some "same" people, who woke up one day and spent 20 years in a cave meditating on the shabd. ...Twenty years... I am willing to Listen to their "opinion" more than someones who has been mentally masturbating in samsara for twenty years."

-- the thing is, you don't know who (or what) you are talking about. yes, shiv dayal singh supposedly meditated for 17 years. but so what? many have meditated for years as well. i have been meditating for about 44 years. i spent about ten of those years meditating in the Himalayas, sometimes even in caves. however, its not about how long anyone has meditated. experience in meditation doesn't prove a thing.

"I am also ready to follow their advice more willingly."
-- well then, according to that, you should be following Brian's or my advice... since i have spent 44 years doing meditation.

"Call me a fool, call me a sheep, call me anything you want to call me.Call me a slave, a prostitute, a worm, an immature, inexperienced filthy idiot hairless biped.'
-- you sound a lot like Sid. are you Sid?

"What I appreciate ... is their gratitute and loving-ness to share ... their experience with the people of the world who have been playing samsara while they were still and silent in darkness."
-- how do you know what "the people of the world" have been doing? what gives you the right or the ability to judge them?

"So we may not all be exactly the same. Some are free, and some are slaves."
-- no, thats wrong. no one is a slave. each and everyine is meant to know and to embody the 'glory of god'. and for that, no intermediaries are needed.

[Jayme]

"... no one is a slave." meaning to me that I don't have a master and that it is a choice to be subordinate to a master.

"each and everyone is meant to know and to embody the glory of god." meaning to me that for what other purpose than to know one's self as god?...

"and for that, no intermediaries are needed." and then too let the un-necessary fiction of self dissolve.

it isn't my present state of being; but to know this would indeed be wonderful. no rssb, no master, no self

[tAo]

Jayme wrote:

"meaning to me that I don't have a master and that it is a choice to be subordinate to a master."

"meaning to me that for what other purpose than to know one's self as god?"

"and then too let the un-necessary fiction of self dissolve."

"this would indeed be wonderful. no rssb, no master, no self"

-- jayme, thats not quite what i meant.

> "no one is a slave" meant that each individual is sovereign, and no one is spiritually inferior or subservient to another. nobody needs to be a slave. the term "master" is not good imo. they would be better to say 'teacher' or even 'guru'.

> "each and everyone is meant to know and to embody the glory of god" didn't mean "to know one's self as god". it meant to be yourself. no one is above you. you have a direct connection to source.

> "and for that, no intermediaries are needed" didn't mean "let the un-necessary fiction of self dissolve". it meant that no
so-called "master" or guru or intermediary is between you and source.

> "no rssb, no master, no self" is also not what i meant. the rssb exists. the rssb guru exists. and you exist. it had nothing to do with losing your self. i don't see things that way. you are what you are. you exist. no self need be done away with. you are your self. and thats the way its meant to be, because thats the way it is. we are here to BE ourselves, not to do away with ourselves. negating oneself is a wrong idea, imo. nothing needs to be done away with in order to reach god etc etc. our
individual existence is part of totality. we don't need to lose ourselves, we need to surrender and accept ourselves as expressions of source.

[Nietzsche]

@Tara
Reading your reply and the rest I can only conclude that the clear arguments come from the sceptics (you) and that the defenders are trying to confuse. To bad, I would like to participate in something worthwhile but to be a member of a confused group that is following a master that seems to be full of tricks, no I respect myself and others to much for that.

However the link posted by Robert Searle was really interesting. It simple explains how to apply the yoga technique and how to travel in the inner world. Still some questions on my mind like why the third eye when you are in the innerworld why focus on the third eye from the outer world. These kind of questions, using your mind where it was made for. That is the way to stay away from crooks. The RSSB seems to focus on the blind following, but they don't realize that the following is to the light, if you leave your eyes closed how will you ever find the light.

Is there more info on the Robert Searle link? I'm happy that there are a few couragious people here that dare to withstand the deluded gods.

[Robert Searle]

I do not know how anybody(!) could think that there is a conspiracy going on at this website!!

But I would be interested to know if BH has had any official comments from the dera hierachy at all. I presume not....and it seems that the data on GS appears to be largely true... or else BH would have received a writ for defamantion!!

[tucson]

Like tAo I was never comfortable with the term "master" as it is used in RSSB...Master says this, Master does that, by the grace of the master, etc.

"Master" denotes one who is superior, a ruler or boss, who has complete authority, one who has control of a slave or an animal. When someone is your master you do whatever they say out of fear or need. Some call it love, but it is a love born out of a selfish need for spiritual salvation that they believe the master can bestow upon them at will if they remain subservient and obedient to his commands and unquestioning of his actions.

This is not a healthy attitude, imo. There is no evidence that the master is any more than a normal human being. It is faith and belief in what they think he is capable of and not what he actually does. It is ridiculous to give your power, autonomy and will over to someone who you only imagine deserves it.

Disciples say "by the grace of the master" something happened...they got the business deal they wanted, or they managed to pay their bills, or the kitchen knife only grazed them instead of going through their hand. Or, it is "master's will" that they are going through a rough period of sickness, financial difficulties, etc.

While I suppose it is in the realm of possibility that some human could have such power, it is not reasonable to believe it without evidence and only on the heresay of books, scripture or others who are most likely duped by the same hypnotic spell.

These people are weak and unable to face life without support of a savior. It is like a child with an imaginary friend or teddy bear who sleeps with them at night to protect them from the bogeyman.

I suggest finding a person who you respect and has something to offer who does not set themselves up as an all-powerfull "master" and who will not allow you to regard them that way. They will go no further than to be addressed as 'teacher' or 'sensei' or something of that nature. Or better yet as Joe, John, Bill, Susan or Dude.

[Kiran]

RSSB CHIEF BABA GURINDER SINGH JI HAS GREAT ETERNAL POWER. IF YOU WALK ONE STEP TOWARDS BABA GURINDER SING JI WITH LOVE THEN BABA GURINDER SINGH JI WILL WALK 1000 STEPS TOWARDS YOU WITH LOVE. WE SHOULD RESPECT ALL RELIGIONS BECAUSE GOD IS ONE!

[Roger]

"IF YOU WALK ONE STEP TOWARDS BABA GURINDER SING JI WITH LOVE THEN BABA GURINDER SINGH JI WILL WALK 1000 STEPS TOWARDS YOU WITH LOVE."

---This sounds nice, however it has a 'sells pitch' flare to it. In addition, a degree of spiritual 'tease' could be found in it. If I am unable to step one step, then could I just hand over my savings and Chevy pickup to the RSSB as a donation and get my 1000 steps, I think I need?

[Cypriot Satsangi]

To Tara:
Tara were you initiated in the RSSB and then you found out it was wrong and so you started trying to find what is the wrong by gathering info from various sources or you are not initiated?
(You are not obliged to answer ofcourse)
I am asking because I would really like to understand the menace you have against the philosophy and GS.

[tAo]

To: Kiran

Kiran, fyi using all caps is the equivalent of loudly shouting, and it does absolutely nothing to support your position.

in fact, it shows you to be an immature jerk whose message cannot stand on its own merits, and it reduces whatever you are trying to say down to the level of nothing more than annoying static and noise.

it doesn't do anything at all to promote your position or your guru. its makes you look like a narrow-minded religious fanatic... which of course, you probably are.

also btw, i don't "RESPECT" any religion. i don't have to respect religion. there is no "SHOULD RESPECT". religion is man-made, and it is also entirely a personal choice. just because you believe in religion, doesn't mean that i must respect religion. i only respect things (and people) who i feel deserves or earns respect. i don't give respect just because somebody else (like you) thinks and believes that religion is holy and sacred, or that people should respect your idea of god.

[Jayme]

tAo

my words are clumsy. I do not wish to imply that i know what you mean. what you say is persuasive. It isn't mysterious but it is difficult for me to understand with so many of my own mental conceptions.

Speaking for myself, the ideas of master, rssb, and self are burdensome concepts that are often used as a deceitful crutch or excuse for my own personal ignorance and lack of personal responsibility. I speak for myself but it is this sense of personal projection of my desires onto these outer forms that I see as pointless. I think the dissolution of the empty selfish desires is not such a bad idea. (still just an idea)

Respect for a teacher, in whatever form, seems most agreeable to me. I recognize rssb and master are there but my peace of mind are not determined by them. That is, I don't project my delusions of happiness onto some man or institution. I don't know if that makes sense but I'll leave it there.

respects

[tAo]

jayme,

no problem. i didn't mean to sound like i was down on your case. sorry if i gave you that impression. we're cool. thanks and i think i understand how you feel.

you know, everyone is really just trying to understand and make sense out of their life, in some way or another. i guess some people think that i am a mean guy, but i'm really not. i just tell it like i see it. i can't help it, its just the way i am. and sometimes i could be wrong, and sometimes times people misunderstand me.

unlike most people, i was born and raised in class and priviledge and wealth... but since then i've walked and suffered a longer and harder road than most, to arrive at the place where i am at today.

and you know, the irony is that, in the end, i finally just had to give myself all away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQeaSm-XYPA

[kiran]

To: Cypriot Satsangi

If you have a brain and if you went to school you would know that by writing something you feel passionately about in capital letters emphasises your words and DONT judge me....who are YOU to judge me. You dont even know me!!!
and OK if you dont want to respect any religion then dont but im just following the masters teachings.

[Robert Searle]

I am not suprised that Gurinder had the statue of Charan destroyed. This was not a show of disrespect but quite the opposite. Other people might see it as otherwise thinking that Gurinder did not respect his own master. On the contrary from my own interpretation it can be simply seen as a statement on the teachings that statues of any master can lead to idol worship....This contradicts Sant Mat.

Indeed, Gurinder understandably does not like being followed around by devotees, and claimed that he is not an idol...!

[Jayme]

tAo,

I don't know why, but I don't find your comments harsh. My brother was an alcoholic and used to verbally threaten me all the time. I love him dearly to this very day. Your comments to others here remind me of the door guardians, keeping the fools out of paradise. (I have my own guardians keeping me out.)

I just lost my dearest friend. She was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and 48 days later she was dead. Her heaven was this place, this moment. She was absolutely against all the hypocritical crap of institutional religion and she served others with deep love and respect (she was a nurse for the elderly). And now that she is gone, all that matters is this moment. I am finding that beliefs in anything else are a fools prison.

Before she died, she had an idiotic baptist drunkard tell her if she didn't get saved, she was going to hell. What a load of crap "fundamentalist" people carry around in their minds and wish to inflict on others. Pitiable at best.

I'm no different but I try - and am mostly wrong. anyway, i love the principles of christianity and islam and even sant mat but the institutional forms most of us hang onto are in a sorry state... a bit of a reflection on my own state.

enjoyed the song, thx.

[Cypriot Satsangi]

To: Kiran
No I have never used capital letters and I haven't judged you.
I am following my Master's teachings as well.
Maybe you have confused me with somebody else. I was asking Tara and not you and yes we don't know each other.

To: Tara
I have used the word meance because when you write or say something about somebody, at least you should be bold and brave enough to mention your sources and not just:
"someone close to RRSB" or "some friend who knows very well". This has no difference than rumors and gossips
so if you want to seriously discuss an issue for which you feel and believe as your statements show (anger maybe?) then be precicely by giving your sources (names etc) in public, otherwise it is our right to draw conclusions such as the one I have...That you have menace against RSSB and the Masters in general.

[Dogribb]

Rennet free cheese no doubt reduces the burden of Karmas the PLM takes on from his initiates.Love the statue story....right out of the Pat Robertson Playbook

[subodh]

Definitely I agree with the views given on destroy of statue of Charan Singh. If someone knows SANATAN DHARM, Hirnakshu ask parhlad whether your GOD is there in the wall and the same was taken as AVTAR. It is the bad or wrong stretegy of RS that they mislead the people and should not use our holy GRANTHS as an example. What they do they may beat their own DAFLI themself but should bot criticise other as they do. Exactly there teachings are against all

[Cypriot Satsangi]

To Tara
Dear Tara by the use of the word is OUR right to draw conclusions I mean ofcourse those who do not believe you.
Now about protecting your sources that's nothing but a cheap excuse.
RSSB ofcourse wouldn't enter into each individual's info or gossip and start making commnets and discussions on every stupidity each one each time wants to say.
If RSSB would feel the need to apologise for everything that people around say, then I don't think it would be a serious organization, but rather a gossip club.

It just happened accidentally to read about the assassination attempt and accidentally as I was surfing in the net I just found your web blog.

Now that I re-think about it maybe it was wrong to give you any attention, because after I read all these stupid things I shouldn't have entered into this discussion
RADHA SOAMI

[tAo]

Cypriot Satsangi,

to put it bluntly, basically you're full of crap.

Tara's sources have requested anonomity, and that is quite reasonble given the circumstances. why do Tara's sources wish not to be divulged? because in India the RSSB is a powereful cult organization that doesn't take kindly to its members bucking the system; and because Tara and Tara's sources have family and friends that are satsangis and sevadars, and exposing them may likely cause them serious personal troubles; and last but not least, because Tara promised not to expose them, and her word has integrity.

second, you don't have to "believe" what Tara has shared here. but you have no right to say that her promise to maintain the anonomity of her sources is a "cheap excuse". it is your character that is "cheap". you obviously are in willful denial regarding the facts (about Religare and GS and his relatives fiancial dealings), and they are facts, not mere "gossip".

so learn the facts right before you go insulting and challenging other people's truth, information, and integrity.

moreover, its not RSSB that should "apologise"... its an individual - the RSSB leader/guru who has some serious explaining to do.

"It just happened accidentally to read about the assassination attempt and accidentally as I was surfing in the net I just found your web blog."

-- if you have nothing good to say or share, then why don't you just "surf" right on out of here?

"it was wrong to give you any attention, because after I read all these stupid things I shouldn't have entered into this discussion"

-- if you don't appreciate having reasonable discussion and sharing facts and relevant information, then mabe you should go somewhere else where people would rather remain ignorant and narrow-minded.

you have made derogatory insinuations about other satsangis and about the information they share, but then you turn around and say "RADHA SOAMI"... well frankly, thats rather phony and disingenous.

truth is, you can't come anywere near the degree of sincerity, integity and character of someone like Tara. you're just all a bag of hot-air with no substance. you think you are going to crap on Tara?? well you had better think again. i can, and i will cut your foolish nonsense to shreds.

[Nobody]

A small expert from the Garbage and Goddess. [http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/GarbageGoddess/chapter13.html]
Another take of Guru/Disciple relationship...
also. I think it touches a little bit upon what Faqir Chand was indicating in his words.

Its a Q&A

BUBBA/ Adi Da: One might very well have very clear and even true impressions in the form of psychic experiences. I just don't have any such experiences or impressions. The consciousness in me doesn't have any remaining tendencies like that. While individuals in the Ashram are going through this spontaneous purifying process that is awakened in Satsang, they themselves might move through those dimensions in which the psyche is open toward the universal plane of memory. So people in the Ashram could have a much clearer sense of my possible past incarnations than I have. In fact, the Guru has no sense of identification even with his present life. I have no more sense of identity with Franklin Jones or Bubba Free John than any of you does. I have the same sense of identity with all of you that I have with Bubba Free John. It is not a sense of identification or of limitation. It is purely spiritual comprehension of what is arising, without any of those limitations becoming the point of view. That is why the process of Satsang can work.

Men of experience have all kinds of mystical awarenesses and secondary siddhis and awarenesses of past lives and all kinds of psychisms. So the psychic individual looks at your forehead, sees symbols and images arise there, reads them according to the lore that he has studied, and tells you where you are at. This is a secondary siddhi, a psychism very close to life, and it requires identification with the life vehicle in order for it to exist.

In the Guru there is no such identification with the life vehicle, so he doesn't look at a person and read signs in order to know where he's at. He already knows. There is no obstruction in consciousness, so everything that he does relative to his devotee is perfect. It is perfect not because he is experienced enough to know how to operate. He simply does it perfectly, because be has already been undone in the Lord. So I literally haven't the slightest idea who I may have been in the past. And I would have to make the same kinds of judgments you might have to make about it. On the basis of some evidence any single one supposed, it might seem right or it might not. In order to confirm it, I would have to get involved in some psychic activity for which I have no tendency at all. So what Indian was I? You are the one who had the vision, not me.

JANIS: I have been having this vision for two weeks, over and over, very dramatically. Usually the Indian doesn't have very much on. But I feel as if I have a lot of clothes on. I feel these leggings, these boots that come all the way up, and leather things.

NINA JONES: Is he wearing a headdress?

JANIS: No, he doesn't have a headdress.

ANN: Is he a chief?

JANIS: I don't know. I think so. Someone else who has been having similar visions said they saw him as a chief. It's amazing to me, Bubba, that you don't always know what is going on in all this stuff that is arising in us. I think, "Oh, he knows."

BUBBA/Adi Da: All that stuff is the toilet bowl level. It seems very far-out, but it is not. It is just stuff. But it may be necessary to pass through it. Some individuals may go through a psychic purification that is reflected in the conscious mind, and it may include the memory of past lives and that sort of thing, whereas others just go through mental forms relative to their present life.

JANIS: It's really odd to see that's what it is.

BUBBA/Adi Da : It is perfectly obvious to me where you are at. The Guru operates from the point of view of a perfect assumption of your Divine existence. He doesn't just go around assuming mentally that everybody is in God. He can make that assumption only because it is perfectly apparent to him. That is all there is to it. He makes no assumptions on a lower level. So when he enters into relationship with you, that perfection tends also to be generated in your case, because his assumption of your true Nature manifests as Power to transform.

[Roger]

Tara,

LOL.....You're a tough one..... tAo would be proud. Yes, this is just blogging, not to be made a big deal about. Keep up the good work. Roger

[Nobody]

So Tara. Tell us. How was GS stressed? And what do you mean exactly that the representatives are concerned. Dont just throw things like that out in the air. Enlighten us with facts and actual embodied actions in the social domain. (( A Guru for example making money for me, is not by itself a spiritual sin. An enlightened being, [again 'enlightened' for luck of a better word] can be born rich and can become rich..So by itself, a spiritual teacher making money is not evidence of decadence. Its an indicator that he might be..but not evidence.)) If you dont want to do it in public i will give you my email, and obviously my name, and you can sent me the 'info'. But i would prefer if this conversation was performed publicly.

[Cypriot Satsangi]

To Tara:

Yes I know it's Brian's blog and you should also be thankfull for letting you speak with so much hatret in your heart about people, no matter whether they are gurus or just people...
Regarding my RSSB breed....hm... your's it is what? I can see your manners from the way you treat people and especially those who disagree with you.
Someone said you're tough.
If you think that good impression is by toughness, then sorry once again that I have entered to this discussion with you.
This is my last reply and I won't be answering back so whatever you write you and your supporters will be reading and having fun by yourselves.
Goodby and may God smoothen your heart.....
Radha Soami again (no matter whether it is with folded hands or unfolded......IF YOU THINK THIS IS THE ESENCE....?????
:))))))))

[tAo]

Cypriot Satsangi,

Tara has shown no such "hatred in [her] heart".

gurus who set themselves up as god (or allow themselves to be considered as being such), deserve to be scrutinized.... in all aspects.

i can see the way you treat people by the attitude of your comments. especially those people who don't blindly believe as you do.

also, those who say "this is my last reply and I won't be answering back" are cowards who run away because they are unable to defend their position.

"may God smoothen your heart"

-- well don't worry about others. you should only worry about your own lack of heart and humility to god. that is more your concern. try opening your own heart and mind, and then maybe you will begin to Tara in a different way.

[tAo]

nobody,

what makes you think that some guru is an "enlightened being"?? why do you say "enlightened being"?? why don't you simply say teacher or guru or spiritual master?? why do you insert "enlightened being" into the issue??

also, is the guru really "making money"? or is he using other people's money? and what is he actually doing to make this money? or was it simply given to him? where di the money come from in the first place? do you have these answers? if not, then why do you ridicule asking them?

and why do you want info "publicly"?? for what reason? and why do you care as long as you have the same info as everyone else does? all the relevant info is already on this site. so what is your agenda here?

[Robert Searle]

Ad hominen attacks achieve nothing!

[Atul]

babajee is jani jaan , I really feel pity for those people who think him as normal human being .Babajee knows everything, he is God.
Radha Soami.

[RP79]

These cults are destroying core religions. If Baba Ji does not want to create division within humanity such as non-satsangis and satsangis then why can he not ask the sangat to pray, meditate in their local places of worship?

And whats this business about being ready for naam by Radhaswamis? Every person should be allowed to take naam whenever they wish and do so with pride and honour. Who is he to decide who is allowed naam and who isnt? Did Guru Gobind Singh Ji tell his disciples they are not ready and vice versa? NO!

When you are extracting and preaching from our sacred SGGS Ji you should not preach from outside of a gurdwara where our living master resides.

Can any Radhaswami answer this question. You meet and great each other with Radhaswami, have literature and use extractions from all core religions. Does that not constitute a cult? Why cant you read scriptures and go to your temple, gurdwara, church whatever it may be to learn the right way of life?

Radhaswami path is no different to what all religions teach so there is no need for this cult to exist!

[noiZ]

@ Tara...

Tara, have you ever thought about writing a book expressing all of what you've been sharing with us? You seem to have so much insight into the schemes of RSSB organization, and write with such elegance...I'd be the first in line to buy your book, and I am serious about it.
Thanks for all your comments; they are always a pleasure to read.

noiZ

[tucson]

Many criminals and con-artists take advantage of people's good intentions and humanity in order to victimize them. People pose as representatives of fake charities for disaster victims to extract funds from sympathetic people who want to help out.

A few years back there was a man who would pretend to be having car trouble and when someone would stop to help he would murder them and steal their car.

RSSB poses as a legitimate spiritual path with a master that has the supernatural powers to spiritually liberate individuals from the cycle of rebirths and install them in Sach Khand (heaven).

This path steals your faith and trust, falsely giving hope for salvation and a blissfull afterlife. This is injurious because once RSSB is recognized for what it is some followers are left disillusioned, without hope and in despair...their beloved guru is a fake and their path to god is obliterated.

RSSB is a criminal organization which under the guise of a legitimate path to salvation it uses the free work and donations (seva) of its followers to expand its wealth and scope of operations and power.

Just saying it like it is, imho.

They're a bunch of crooks, you know, bad guys. And the guru is the leader of the gang. He is the worst of the worst because he knows what he isn't. Apparently he has no shame or conscience in perpetuating this sham, this scam, this rip-off.

[Nobody]

I have been following this thread (or threat...) for somedays.

I will begin this long thread by first saying that it is deeply infused with rhetoric which stems 150% from US culture and US discourses; either that is politics -conspiracy theories, good guys vs bad guys, with US or against US. This should be clear, following the map w the red dots, more than 80% of the people who post are from the US. This should be clear to the reader..I am not saying something which is not the obvious..por favor..es una realidad

This is important to understand. Why? Ego and its culture is one and the same. The way you socially construct it and reconstruct in daily life is also a cultural game. The ego is not something ontologically,,,the ego is a process that is being played with other egos which again are 'a process'. When ego is not there,,,process is not there...and when a process aka game is not there..then...Buuueno...

No winner no loosers no nirvana no samsara no guru no desciple no death no birth no obamass no glen becksss, no mexicans no gringos. And this is just scratching on the surface.

I will not dwell into this much. I am just trying to elucidate two dimensions that seem somewhat hidden in this blog. First that the rhetoric is, as we are writing in English to begin with, engroses and performed with US 'rules' As rules of a game not rules of the police..
And the discourse, again is one which is -important to 'get this' , open and interlinked with other discourses that are part and parcel of US culture. That Brian did not 'know' that people give away food and thought that this was a remarkable thing etc etc is something which is derived from his cultural background. For me, this food giving, is nothing special...i never thought that it was special. Its beautiful it happens in many places around the world and most importantly I was aware that this was the case. So I was not enchanted when I saw RSSB giving food for "Free".

With millions of disciples from all around the world, this cultural understanding must be understood. If not then. sorry. F*** RSSB but please understand it in the eve that that there 7,000,000 on the planet and the US is only 5% of its population and Europe another 5% . There is no norm. Some people do not have a word for this and some others do not have a word for that.

Now. Tuscon, inmho, is a conspiracy theorist who believes that there are evil ones on the planet who are trying to push forward a financial worldwide system. Fine. Something of the sort might be in the mind of some. But, well,,,how can i say this.. from a "spiritual" view of the "ego-less" IS AS IT IS: This "situation" is hollow of any fundamental ontological so to speak existence. (And so is the Religare one) I understand what he is saying, I read a lot as well about it -involved myself with it -but...ce la vi. One day we will all die. You think that you found out something about RSSB that we, the stupid satsangies have not. Please please please. There is nothing new on what allll of you have written. Please..stop treating the rest as idiots and yourselves as the enlightened ones who saw like dorothy behind the curtain. Por favor... Things are not black and white... I will go on though.

The same applies with the RSSB.org . The 'pundits' -another great US political word, are attacking with an O-reilley style the RSSB government from all fronts. Fair enough. In many things you say, you are describing facts. Let the interpretations be open. That is why Tuscon somewhere in his lines puts the silly, imho...Which for those that dont know means : In My Honest Opinion. Exactly..dude. but please right it so we can see it better instead of msg typing it imho...imo....btw imo. Tss ts ts

Then you have Tara: I don't know who she or he is but she is very intelligent.Probably she is woman because Tara is more of a feminine principle but that -whether a man or woman- means nothing. Pissed off and ranging , angry, upset and revolting. "Gurinder seem surprised when he got appointed as a guru from a phone call" she said. So did Charan miss. And the RS guru's never played 'Immaculate'. Sawan broke a leg, he wrote that he was away from his wife in the military that enabled him to be free from lust easier, he felt sad at times because this material plane is f**** up sometimes, he travelled in places where people would attack him...etc. The letters from his guru treat the matter well. They are humane and down to level. All mystics, that lived,,,,,ACTUALLY LIVED (not like Santa Jesus and Santa Buddha and Santa LAo Ze) exhibit the same attributes. Look at.. well... Heraclitus,,,Parmenides,,,Plotinos,,,Eikhart...Rumi...I could go on and on and on...Tukrama...Ramana...Yogananda,,,even Adi Da -either you like him or accept him for what he said he was.

One single advice from me to all of you, take it or leave it : Dont read these mystics' words and works,,,read their life histories, de-mythologise what a mystic or a human being is and grow up.

A guru or whatever you want to call him or her, takes a shit, has upset stomach every now and then, picks his nose, scratches his balls, scratches his ears, makes money!! is a king..is a beggar...may be a soldier, be a prostitute, be a poet,,,be be be anything... may even ...OH MY GOD...have sex...and have babies and live a family life...OMG!! have sweaty sex? YES. He may even be polygamist...and have many wives. His role as a guru is social...His role as a guru is spiritual..both at the same time...and without a certain pattern,,,that fits moral or ethical laws.

If you enter a spiritual path with SANT CLAUSE GURU in your head, then my dear friends you will be disappointed. 100% guaranteed.

I like Tara and I like reading her comments. What I 'read' and excuse me I am not being condescending is an attempt to break free from the 'culture' that formed her and the SANTA GURU CLAUSE with white beard and red dress that brings enlightment in a silver plate. Sorry... The guru cannot take a shit for you, cannot eat for and cannot find enlightenment for you. He or she, tells you not eat meat, not do drugs, to meditate when you can as much as you can, keep your mind in check and put your thumb in your ear and be quiet if he is a shabd guru or sit down in zaaaaazen.

The self you cherish so much is the illusion that is needed to be overcome. But again this self..is culturaly constructed..your sense of self is different from a Naga, a yoribu, a Yamomamo, a cypriot. You dont like a certain spiritual path which has these social attributes and guidlines????...walk away...if you want you can scream like you do,,you can be mellow, you can shut up, you can move on as if nothing happened...etc. Like braking up with your ex...You can do other things to entertain oneself: Watch family guy or go to a zen center or read ken wilber...or pick up archery lessons...go to machu pichu..I don't know..

She said:
" F*** the " obedient " attitude and get real about your lives. You need to have a voice, even if that means you change your gender and hide behind a pseudo name. "

-If this attitude came as a result of association or disocciation with sant mat...then I like it either or. A Pharmakon is both medicine and poison you know...

Then she said:

"This is just a blog, but then again, it gives you the freedom and space to talk about the stuff that is pushed under the carpet in our RS social groups. Didn't Gurinder tell people not to use hair color ? Who's obeyed that one ?"

Haha...so the problem with the Guru , amidst this Spiritual fervent!!!! that he told you not to use color?? Dear God...!! hahaha I am sorry..

Look Miss, I wil tell you truth ( i never thought that I would have to articulate such an insignificant daily pattern,,or lifestyle behaviour of mine...but we are living in the DECONSTRUCTIONIST ERA and I am feeling in a writing mood....so here it goes...)

I do not use color in my head. I actually do not use any type of colouring in my food, in my drinks etc. I do no trust any type of mass produced food type of stuff. In that regard...I am ...to say a silly word that again exists in the WESTS' discourse to differentiate itself from the "Savage pre-civilised Others" ,,, A primitivist...aka a vegan hippie in american words. If something is not 150% organic i do not put in me.. Well...I do brake the rule every now and then..I am not fanatic about it. I do not live in the west,, but even that by itself is not enough to find only organic stuff. I do not know for example if the peanut butter has shit in it that I would not desire. Or...well...I use Aloe Vera tootbrush...but again it might shit in it as well..So I lied..

My point is..relax. You, and Tuscon, and Tao and Brian go from hot to cold from cold to hot...
IF your or anybodies guru is making money...be happy for him or her. if you are not happy...then that does not mean that you should be unhappy.

Why are you unhappy that my guru is a millionaire? I presume your guru was Charan..by the way.
I am happy that, apparently, my guru is a millionaire.. Hes got nam and hes got cash. And I hope the Sant mat religion grows and grows and grows.and grows and grows and I wish it takes over the whole wide world. At least people will stop eating meat and killing each other.. Perhaps by the next re-incarn. the other ego,,which will have nothing to do with the ego you have now...we will be in a social process and involved in such a world wide situation...

Peace to you all...

[tucson]

Hey Nobody,

I think you have me confused with tAo. He speaks more about conspiracies than I do. I did write a conspiracy theory satire in another thread about Vatican Satanists working with the Yakuza. Sorry you took it seriously. It was meant as a joke, not to say that conspiracies don't exist. I'm just not into them.

Also, I don't know much about Religare. I only know what others have written or presented about it on this blog. However, I will say again and probably again and again that RSSB is a fraud. The gurus are not superhuman agents sent by an entity called Sat Purush to rescue marked jivas from the jaws of Kal and the wheel of eighty four. They were not sent by anyone to order followers to avoid cheese made with rennet, or to avoid pastries brushed with egg whites, or a glass of beer, or for that matter a piece of caribou liver when living on the arctic tundra. RSSB dogma is all just imagination, a story, a fabrication, an illusion, a deception, a lie. Sorry. Really I am. It's tough to face eternity empty handed until you get the hang of it. The good news is...you can get the hang of it.

So, I doubt Tara, tAo, Brian, myself and others are likely to "relax" in our criticism of RSSB because that's the way we feel about it. Don't like it? Go elsewhere. Or stay and say your piece. Whatever.

"IMHO" means to me "in my humble opinion". Again, I use that as satire because I am not very humble on this blog, but I'm a real swell guy in person. Just ask my dog.

I am not inclined to honor your request to write out 'imho'. I prefer the acronym. Of course you are free to write it out if you wish.

Good day?

[RP79]

Please can all RS satsangis answer my post as I would like to know your thoughts! Importantly, if Maharaji dosent want to create divisions then why does the RSSB cult exist. Surely all the gurbani and scriptures he uses to preach from are found at the places of respective worship?

To noiZ: Application Process?!!!! What!! It isnt a job interview! It is naam and as SGGS Ji states every person should be entitled to naam. If they take Naam they should understand the importance and consequence if one does not follow.

the religious scriptures are very clear cut and transparent. Unfortunately these transparent and clear scriptures are complicated by religious cults and of course man. Every person has their own "way" of religion and not many people actually follow what these messengers of God laid down centuries ago..

[noiZ]

Tara thanks for clarifying the mix-up that RP79 had about our comments. And by the way, I'm still awaiting your response on my previous question to you.

Now @ RP79

You said "...When you are extracting and preaching from our sacred SGGS Ji you should not preach from outside of a gurdwara where our living master resides..."

You see I totally agree with you on whatever you’ve said about the RSSB, being a cult and all that. But you definitely lost me when you’ve called your “…sacred SGGS Ji” your “living master.”I know you’re probably a follower of the Sikh religion, but to tell you the truth I can’t help it but to think of the absurdity of it all. Thinking that a mere book can be viewed as an authority is beyond me. Just plain bullshit!! in IMO, The Bible, the Koran, the Adi Granth or any other so called “religious book” are just that…a mere BOOK. They appear to be wise, but the truth is they really are not, because if you ask them any question, they’ll go on telling you the same shit forever…

noiZ

[RP979]

Noiz

these books were complied through the messengers of god. when you go to any religious cult or conventional religion meeting they all convey the same message over and over again!!!!! those that listen turn out good and never need reminding again!

these holy scriptures have all the answers in life, unfortunately in todays world people make their own views up rather than listening to the harmonious and humane way of life which these scriptures teach us all!

thus my reason why scriptures teach us everything...

[Nobody]

Dear Tara,

[Please...drob the bs of not being able to blog with the garbs of a woman.. At least treat us...a blog full of 'spiritualists' the credit that we -at least- are not chauvinists. Besides Tara gives it away. In any case..I brought the gender issue up..I shouldn't have. I sincerely apologise for that]

Look Miss Tara,

Each has his or her way of understanding things.
I thought you came across as angry. I did not say you were. Perhaps I phrased it wrong. In any case. I do not feel i have to 'logically' defend any challenge. Logic and social self is the same: I wrote extensively about it in my commend.

I do not perceive an attack from you...I do not perceive a challenge from you. I know what i know from my own experiences, experiences that cannot be articulated...so do not ask me to articulate then inarticulable. If you want to treat me like an idiot..no problem. Treat me. Each has his or her way of understanding things. I Said what I said. And that is all.

ps. You said: "The blokes at RSSB will be mighty unhappy when they read your interpretation of Sant Mat."

I am "the blokes" at RSSB and so are you

to tuscon: I apologise i thought you were a conspiracy theorist...which off-course you are in a sense. Writing conspiracy satire requires that type of frame of mind to be able to weave reality with up-rupt punches of paralogy..of lets say absurdity...Reality reality reality/absurdity. Ofcourse 'reality' is a social construct..no? The same logic you use in your satire...you use against saints..more or less. Its a pattern of thought you have..for sure...Anw..I read the piece again by the way, and imho, its not at all a joke..is a blend of social reality twisted...reality twisted....I like that...I will use it more.. Anw. Good piece of writing nevertheless..

[carlos]

For those who are atheists, there is no cure. Not everybody is meant to be a believer. All real mystics, saints come to give the same message, they do not come to create any new religion, or creed. Only, when they go away from this physicall plane, the worldly weak people start giving names to those teachings and get lost with rituals, dogmas, mausoleums, temples, places of pilgrimages, etc and form new religions, which was contrary from the teachings.
Just as Christ said: I have come to collect the marked sheep by my Father, or Me and my Father are one, those who have seen me have seen the Father. Now let´s give these words a little attention. The first line means, He has not come for everybody, He has come only for those alloted souls marked by the Father, not anybody else, and once His job is done He goes back and merges in His origin.
Secondly, when He says those by seeing Him, have seen the Father, means for those souls who were presnt in a physicall body during His lifetime alone.
Just the same as, if there was a very good doctor 200 years ago, howsoever good he may have been, he can not come and cure us, we need a living doctor of our time, neither by reading any amount of medical books, our illness is going to leave us.
These perfect masters, mystics or saints they come from time to time, with the same universal message; one can read their teachings, and see by onself, how same they are, being carefull with the so called human or man manipulations, according to their tastes or limited thinkings, because men are very manipulative, what they do not like, they just twist it, mostly by intellectuals, phisohphers or priest class.
But basically, the teachings are same. Outwardly one can be a black, white, yellow, tall, short, rich, poor, american, african or jew or a muslim or a sikh, but what is common in all of them, tehy have lungs , stomach, heart, nose or legs, hands, faculty of thinking... etc and mind. It is not that, a white has a brain in the skull, the others will have brain in the legs or mouth. So if there are same things and same contents, irrespective of outer size, placed and ordered in the same manner, naturally, that consciousness or essence of feeling,is same in each and everyone of us.
Just as if there are different colours of ballons, the gas with which they are inflatted, will make them elevate. So we see with these simple examples, somethings are common equally to everybody.
Now what is common in all living beings, is their ultimate reality, which is known as consciousness, soul, essence, drop of divinity, etc.
If someone asks us, what is your profession? We may get an ample variety of answers, like: I am a doctor, a dentist, a broker, a nurse, a carpenter, a shoemaker...etc. All that is now our profession, we have naturally learnt it from someone, and all these are phisicall or mental sciences, which one can touch, see, one can feel. But that what is unknown, can not be felt by our phiysicall senses like sight, taste, smell, touch, how is one at all going to know it by oneself?
Unless, one is lucky enough to come across who actually knows about it. This is what spirituality is all about, call it even science of the soul. No doubt, it is an difficult task, but that does not mean, taht one does not know, implicitly does not exist. Supposing a child or even an adult is standing in an empty room,or an open place literally empty, with no furniture... absolutely nothing; and that person is asked, if there is anything over there. Naturally the answer is going to be that, there is nothing! Even if asked a couple of times more with the same question, the same answer is going to be got. Then the person asking, still insists that there is something, and the person being asked gives up and says please tell me what is there I can not see or perceive, because all my faculties are absolutely fine. So the one who asks, takes out a small radio from his pocket, and turns it on and a very nice song is heard with a melodious voice. And then he says, you see, when you said there is nothing, you were right up to an extent, but not totally, because of your awareness or your knowledge, but the fact is the whole space was filled with waves, which your senses were not aware of, and naturally could not perceive, but that did not mean, they did not exist there. In the same way, what we call spiritual realms; Supreme Being; Soul...etc, can not be perceived by our physicall senses, which are meant for physicall things and objects only. For those finer terms mentioned above, we need to have a proper device or intstrument, otherwise it is impossible, no matter how hard one may try. Now if one doen not know about the existence of that device, or even one may not be interested in knowing it, that does not mean, that reality does not exist. Then not only, having a radio one is going to listen the music, one has to put batteries, or plug it into an electrical input, and then one has to tune it also.
So this is the same with these matters. It is not enough to have this physicall human body, one needs that knowledge from someone expert in the matter.
One knows, that one can see one´s face in a pond of water for example, but if the water is not still or it is dirty, how can one see one´s face in it? In the same way, the person in one of his comments in this page above has stated that, he was a follower of Radha Soami, for 35 years, and that he did not get any experience, nor did he got any backing or feedback from different fellows, so he gave up, thinking that all is false, and his limited, unperfect, uncomplete experience is being spread like shit, manipulating and conditioning the already weak human minds
Naturally, the logical answer to his experience I would say that, even he was to stand 100 years in front of his pond(mind) with waves(thoughts) and dirt(accumulative effects), he is never going to be able to see his face in those waters.
Why only Radha Soami, go and see the teachings of the sikh Gurus : Guru Nanak, Guru Angad Dev, Guru Arjan dev...etc,or saints like Kabir Sahib, Guru Ravi Das, Sant Tukaram, Mira Bai...muslim saints like: Saee Bulleh Shah, Saee Inayat Shah, Shamas Tabriz, Jesus Christ, etc...absolutely all have the same message, only the ignorants fail to see it and create fuss about it. One should not be forced to believe or not believe, it up to oneself. I have been for 40 yeras on this path, and I can proudly say there is nothing bad as stated above by other people, it is obvious there are many people ignorant and bad people so they go on spreading theirs pòison consciouslly or even unconsciuoiusly. Though the teachings are very simple and clear. I challenge anybody who is sincere and wants to ask anything about what one may not understand once gone throughly over some books of this path. For me it is the path most natural, convincing mentally and logically, with no blind faith.
If one is an uneducated during one´s lifetime, that person can not become a judge or a doctor for example, after death. In the same way, if one has not done anything of a spiritual task during one´s lifetime, one can not become enlightened after one´s passing away. So one of the things, of this science of the soul is that no blind faith is needed, but effort for that higher aim is required.
No matter how hard may one think mentally to find a logic to this Supreme Being(God), one is not going to get anywhere, because the mind and it´s tools(ideas, thoughts) are limited to the phiysicall.
Have we not seen the yogis, in their meditative states, for long periods, witout eating or drinking, yet their body is fit and healthy. Have we ever thought, wher do their bidies get that nourishment inspite of not taking any meals or water.
That is why Christ said, not only by bread lives the man.

When Christ was nailed and cricified, He said:Father forgive them, for they know not what are they doing. He was one with the Father, and so were His powers, if He wished, He could do anthing to avoid all that on Himself, but He did not, not that He couldn´t... The same with Guru Arjan dev, He was made to sit on hot iron plates, and was treated unhumanly; if He wished he could finish his oppositors by just one glance or even thought, but He did not, not that He couldn´t... These spiritual masters work on a different consciouss level, compared to ours normal limited human beings.
As Guru Nank says: sochay soch na haovaee, je sochay lakh vaar:
which means, think even a hundred thousand times over the Lord, but not even once are you going to have any idea about Him.
For realizing Him, there is definite and a concrete method to be applied, and without it,however hard may one try, one is not going to succeed.Read the banis inthe Granth sahib, or Anurag Sagar of Kabir Sahib, and dive deep into their just few lines or their unlimited knowledge left for us, in form of these books. and then with a clean mind and heart see for youselves that all these saints, perfect masters have given the same universal message.

Much more can be said, but enough for the moment.

[noiZ]

Tara,

thanks for the reply.
If you find blogging therapeutic, then please keep blogging away because I always enjoy reading your comments. They shed light on a lot of things that I've always wondered about RSSB organization.
Many thanks.

noiZ

[tucson]

Carlos,

How do you know anything you said is true, or as the blog host puts it...really real?

Don't answer for me. I have been through all this. Ask yourself. I know you believe it is really real but do you really know it is really real?

If you don't know it and just believe it, then telling us this is like a preacher telling us that Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Light. He has faith. Apparently so do you. That's nice, I guess.

What if I say the only way to God is through his ONLY Son Jesus Christ just like the Bible says. What if I say you are wrong and are guided by the devil. How do you know I am wrong? Because you really know that what you believe is not a belief and is really real and that what I believe is not really real and is just a belief?

Well then, even if you do really know what you say is really real , how do we know that you know it is really real? Just take your word for it? For all we know you are wrong even if you know you aren't.

Like you said. Not everyone is meant to be a believer. I guess the marked souls will believe you, if there really is such a thing.

[Bimol Sharma]

Ridiculous reading unable to conceive

[carlos]

I do not have any personal problem with anybody, because respect is the best way to live. So saying that, it is fine if you or others do not agree, it is quite natural, no 2 people are on a same consciouss level. Forget about spirituality, but even brothers, genders or spouses disagree and fight. Each and everyone has his own weight to carry. I just know,that each and everyone comes alone and has to go alone, whatsoever good or bad one does, it is entirely his or her responsibility, we can share our points of views and opinions, with an open mind and with logic behind it, no blind faith,for everything we do, there should be sound logic, otherwise we can be puppets,being manipulated by evil minds. Nobody should be forced... it should come from within. And if it is done in that way, with logic and conviction, then nobody can shake you. Let us live as human beings firstly...So much killings are done in name of religion...in name of God....how stupid and senseless. That is because, God is just a concept for most of us, just mere knowledge or reading books, or fasting or going to pilgrimages, or rites or rituals are not going to make us enter the spiritual realms. Just as some people believe that by bathing in a holy river one´s sins can be washed away...just imagine if by putting a chillie in that holy river and then if you taste it, you can see that it has the same hot taste; if it can not just take out that taste of a physical object, how can it wash away the sins...
Going back to the question, whether what one says it is true or not, there is just one way at least for spiritual matters. Try it, and see it for yourself, and then no matter what others say. It is scientific and simple.
Guru Nanak,clearly and in simple way says in JapJi Sahib:
Suniai jog jugat tan bhed, Suniai sasat sinmriti ved: By hearing the name of God, the method of realising Him and the secrets of human body, become known.
So it is not with mind or intellect one can understand or know spirituality. With mind and intellect, you can go on discussing endlessly. It is the conscious effort, method that can convince, I am sorry, there is no other possible way. For worldly material things and objects or even sciences, mind and intellect can be usefull, but for what is beyond their reach, or call it trascendental, they are of no avail. Suppose Guru Nanak or any other mystic had not said this, we human beings surely could not have even thought of it. We as usual, fight and cut each others throats... and that is because we do not even really know what we are doing. Outwardly there are many religions, and all lead nowhere, because the One sought, is not outside. He is inside, that is why Christ said: "ye are the living temple of God". And if we try to find Him inside, according to the correct instructions being put into practice, then there is only one way. If He is One, naturally the path leading to Him has to be one, it can not be different for different religions, nationalities or a limited land or region.
Christ also mentions in the Bible, to that Primal Power; He refers it as the Word, as He says, in the begining it was the word, and everything was created by the Word. Mystics at different times have used different words to describe that energy, but it is the same thing. Christ called it the Word, the muslims call it Kun or Kalma, the sikhs call it Shabad, Hukum, Bhana, Sach, Amrit Bani, etc...but it is the same thing. Water is called by different words in different languages, but not because of that it´s nature changes, it is the same formula H20.If we try to find that energy or power outside, then we are lost in tribals, wars, religions, turbulances, riots. But if we try to find Him in this human body as said before, under guidance, then we are secure and there is no danger, and is the same for everybody. As it is said in the banis: sahib ke darbar mein kewal bhakti aur pyar= which means. in His court only love and devotion are accepted. Nobody is there going to ask you: what is your nationality, your academic record, or wether you are a christian or a jew, or a hindu, sikh or muslim, or wether you are black, white or rich or poor. Because our true essence is the same, we are rays(souls) of the same Sun.

[tucson]

Carlos,

You are steeped in Sant Mat theology and dogma. There is nothing more to say to a true believer such as yourself. It's not your fault. You're new here. It has all been discussed on this blog many, many times over the years and there have been many posts just like what you have written above and all kinds of responses ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Check the archives under Radha Soami Satsang Beas. You will find more material than you are ever likely to read. Good luck. Really.

[carlos]

Tuscson, thanks for your kindness, may God bless you!

[RP79]

As much as the RSSB movement encourages peace and harmony across all religions, it should not really exist when the core religions teach the same!

I would be very interested to hear from RSSB devotees on this matter! Why become RS when you can go to the core places of worship and hear these scriptures etc from the source itself!

[Brian Hines]

Tara, a belated comment on your references to the new "Adventure of Faith" book published by RSSB. For a while I was involved in rewriting Shradda's original manuscript. I sent off a rewrite to the Dera, then lost touch of the project. I still have her original document, so someday it might be interesting to compare the book as published with the book as she first wrote it.

[Kr]

Daadu teri kothri...
Gal Katiyan Ke Paas...
Joe Karangae woe bharangae....
Tu kyo hoe udaasss..............

You all live in a World of democracy, it doesn't mean you share anything and everything about anyone and everyone... I am really shocked to see that people have so much of time and energy is wasted in arguments....

Nothing would happen, if you agree with the Santmat or the path that is shown by the Guru or do not agree. If you Agree, then please follow. If you do not, then please do something that you can do what you feel is not happening....

With a great respect to you all and your thoughts that are being shared (knowingly or unknowingly), please note that God is there to see what is right and what is wrong... so, this would be better to not to spend time on who is right and who is wrong... kindly contribute....

[tucson]

Kr,

While I understand your point, how do you know if these discussions and arguments are a waste of time for any particular individual? Maybe some people actually learn something or hear a point of view they never thought of which is of value to them. How can you know?

Some people like to argue. Would you take the joy and bliss of arguing away from them? Maybe they enjoy spending time in pointless pursuits. Would you take that pleasure away from them?

How do you know that God "is there to see what is right and wrong"? Maybe God doesn't see right and wrong. Do you really have any idea of what God sees? Maybe God started the creation and then died? Maybe whatever God is does not perceive in terms of right and wrong?

[kanika]

that was terrible ,thanx all is fine .hope it never happens again.

[sandeep]

radhasoami ji

[SANJEEV]

the true satsangi dont care abt tht type of bakwaas.. bcoz he fully known tht it cant be happened, he is god not a common man.. so dont bother abt tht type of news.. it is a feature of puran guru. if it happened with another guru den dis news become d national issue... but beas satsangi do not even talk with tht type of things..

[nikita]

this is disgusting!!!how can someone be so cruel?I'm happy Babaji is fine now.

[sreenath]

I was shocked by reading such kind of attack to my guru. my guru never point out any other spiritual paths followed by others.he thought us only how would we live in this creation is companying with maya and how would we devotee our self to resolve in god.he never discourages the people,fallowing other paths.why these folls tryed to harm my love.these is not fair to them.however, my babaji can can excuse the person who doesn't knows the truth exactly.

[kapoor]

my satguru (sahib) and lord (bhagwan) may also pardon and bestow the power of understadnings who criticise Sanatan Dharam, temples and spritual holy granths of Sanatan Dharam without having full knowledge of it .

[manish yadav]

dear friends,

once babaji said in satsang: if you want peace in world then do bhajan and simran daily. lets not argue wat happened there and stick to the duty given to us which is the only goal of a soul in the human body.

[kapoor]

Mr. Yadav Ji, definitely i dont like to argue with any person going to RSSB. My simple augue is that criticism of other belief is not good and cannot stated as a deed of religous persons. My Maharaj Ji, my Satguru ji and my Sahib ji also guided me to follow the path of Sanatan Dharam and not to criticise other and I thnik it is best for self peace and world peace. Criticism make only those people who have lack of knowledge. Go to any Mondir, I dont think anyboody there will say you not to go RSSB but there...........

[harpreet]

i do not belive that any man that covers a radhasoami is a guru or a man of god it is said after guru gobind singh there shall be n more than the guru granth sahib and this should be seen true as the gurus spirit was the spirit of god therefore radhasoami are spiritualist and i dont agree with people reffering them to god or guru althought very interlectual and very spiritual but no more than that i think its bad on those who think that these men are god

[Arun P]

Jesus was crucified, Socrates was poisoned, Guru Arjun Dev was burnt, Guru Gobind Singh was beheaed, the list goes on. To all non believers of RadhaSoami and their Guru I can only pity you as you form a part of the world which crucified Jesus and so on. Feel very sorry for you all.

[Blogger Brian]

Arun, if you're a supporter of religion, all I can say is this in reflective response to you:

I can only pity you as a part of the world that has tortured people and burned them at the stake for not believing in religious dogma; that is responsible for countless other deaths caused by battles between competing faiths, like between Hindus and Muslims, and between Muslims and Christians; that even today is responsible for much suffering due to refusals to embrace AIDS prevention and embryonic stem cell research.

Other examples could be given. My point is just that religion has caused a great deal of death, suffering, divisions, hatred, and pain. The world would be much better off without blind belief. If you're religious, you're contributing to the problem.

[Mike Williams]

Strange question for Brian,

Do you ever get the feeling Charan and
Gurinder were and are controlled by
people behind the scenes ?

Possibly the Board, or people behind
the Board ?

People with huge amounts of cash ?

[Blogger Brian]

Mike, I've never thought of that. But who knows? It could be true. Do you have any evidence of this?

[Lieutenant Fortmore]

Brian above you wrote/posted "My point is just that religion has caused a great deal of death, suffering, divisions, hatred, and pain."

*****religion******????

Humans do bad things.

Envy, pride, lust for power, anger, fear, GREED, and general insanity.

Religion is not more responsible for bloodshed and mayhem than a penis is responsible for rape.

[Mike Williams]

Jiddo Krishnamurti spent his life
warning people about divisions and
hate religion causes.

Religions are unproven beliefs.

I have no evidence Beas has an invisable
hand behind it.

Thanks Tara and Brian.

But, as a student of history, I know
most times one exists.

Such as the Rothchilds whom have controlled
wars since the days of Napoleon.

[Peter Holleran]

You're right on about the Rothchilds, Mike, although I would add a few more to your list.

[VIJAY]

THANK GOD!HE IS SAFE.

[Anil Thappa]

I LOVE YOU R.S.S.B

[Sandeeprana]

Baba ji is god .he is not a simple man.gurindar singh ji rab hai.or wo admi mahamurkh hai jo rab pe attack ki koshis karta hai.

[Account Deleted]

I do not know that rs masters are controlled by behind the scene people with the cash,
but its seems Mike Williams is controlled by people with CASH,
thats the reason he keeps on digging out facts,and come with wrong adopted theories and half baked truth,with lots of self mixed stories,

I 100% sure,that mike williams is funded with lots of moolah,for framing a particular path.

Mike bring facts dude,not nonsense content,
if you will bring facts you will have many people reading it and saving it in their memories,
if you keep on posting and writing incorrect unknown theories and stories,
It will bring you good name and fame(though on negative side)

Your website history of beas,is FULL of Lies.
No single truth find in them,only what i found true in it was the names involved,else it was just english.

[Account Deleted]

To Dear RS followers,
Do not get into discussion with anyone over here,
Especially TAO,TARA,Sapient,robert and few more,
They are expert in laying Traps for you,
First they will drag you in shit fight,
and when you get involved they will point fingers on you,for just showing RS path is full of weak followers and believers,
they always need a chance to drag RS masters and Path.

SO Dear RS followers,
Do not get into trap layed by these blog lovers,
they are doing something they believe,which you may reject,
but let them do,
there is a hindi verse,
mulla ki daud masjid thak,
just patiencely wait n watch and see how far these blog and blog lovers run....

[Catherine]

mla, your comment above is appropriate w.r.t. sant mat rssb. Disciples should not make comments on this site- GS does not permit it. It would also serves no purpose for you to upset yourself by entering this site.

The rest of us who are between religions or who have thrown religion to the breeze, will comment as we like because we are not afraid.

As with anything, rssb may be invaluable for some people who need what appears to be the ultimate support from a figurehead.

One thing that is blindingly obvious is that the western satsangi population has aged. Young western people on this path are more often than not some of the sons and daughters of satsangis.

Mike I think your site to be of great importance.

[Juan]

Mla, you are a REAL GURMUKH and it is only by the grace of ALMIGHTY BABAJI. You really deserve.
Hazur Maharaj Charan Singhji used to say that every soul has a two fold purpose. First to help ourselves, to make purer and second to help others come on the path by being a living example of a disciple of a Great Master.
As you wrote that Mike is funded by the Moolahs, so you can`t expect him to bring the facts, would you please put the facts of the HISTORY OF BEAS.
Thanks.

[Account Deleted]

My dear
Juan why you always try to be so smart,
Mike Williams is definitely seems to be funded by moolahs,
but then also he is not at all aware of the facts.
and may be he has been funded from a good organisation.
and juan,i already said many times,being very humble and good,let me repeat once again,
i can bring facts on table,
then i do not trust you or this blog or this blog lovers that you guys will believe it,
you guys just know to play with words,
you are all involved and trapped into a very limited mind theory,
unless you guys come out of it,
you guys will never able to understand anything.
And Mike has written just rubbish in his websites,
ok if you are that much interested in knowing the fact,
Fix a place of yours
fix a time of yours
We will meet there and talk.
Blog is not right place to talk
and the length of discussion required,my god my had will pain typing it,
its better we can talk face to face having many rounds of hot coffee,
that would be easy and comfortable
if you are ready,just let me know
:)

[Account Deleted]

My dear innocent catherine i m also not afraid,
its probably you need to be may be afraid of anything,
but i m not,
And what GSD says and said,i know better than you do.
You keep on reading post and reply according to your ease.
If i say your husband is having affair with your mother,how will you react?
you will sit silently?
perhaps i know ,you would not?
then what would you do?
you would immediately React and act!!!
that's what i do here,
Just like the way your husband has no affair with your mother,
just like that the allegation and messages posted here are incorrect,because i know the truth,
i keep on making them realize,but then they do not listen.

[Anil thappa]

so nice

[Anonymous]

Wat ever read , its about belief in ur self, RSSB and for that matter any other streams of belief should not be condem, if u dont want to follow or believe in the sytem dont nobody is forcing its some who believe in him felt hurt, its like a news about or friend or family if come to know she/he is attacked i would be worried.
Keep life simple ...

[vanshika kapur]

proud to be a follower of baba ji since childhood..it feels great to be a part of a radha soami family...

[Sarbjeet atar]

my guru knows eveerything ,where ever HE goes ,no one can harm to my satguru ji. so the almighty my guru gives life to everybody who anyone comes to HIM.

[sandeep Kaur]

hello my name sandeep I daily going to guruduwara. I saw they are selling religion eg people are giving money to them for kirtan and explanation gurugranth. One day I bought movie which are free but they are selling those moving and saying this is seva.I am thinking that the money they getting from those CD they keeping themselves. In this way they doing seva I am confused.I watched on tv to guruduwara pardan stealing money. I asked many peole going to guruduwara they do not know gurubani meaning, I am thiking why they going there if they do not know anything even ten guru name

[The Specialist]

[This commenter, "The Specialist," had trouble leaving a comment, so it was emailed to me with a request that I post it. Glad to oblige -- Blogger Brian]

To Tara and Tao : You two are my heroes. I love reading your thoughts. Tara...you are like Wonder Woman. I picture Linda Carter when I read you...bold and wonderfully insightful and Tao....you kind of remind me of The Batman(the superhero with no super powers but makes up for it in guts and life experience)...I grew up on comic books so forgive the personifications.

In my personal experience (it may be different for others)...I have found that religion and cults seem to be the choice substitute for those who lack the confidence to deal with reality. Certainly, in my experience, having zero confidence in my 20's, I was the perfect recruit for any religion or cult...sprinkle the allure of a Living Master who has mystical powers and the talk of heavenly regions, what to speak of insight into the full chracter profile on Kal Niranjan(and satsangi's let's be honest...you love hearing stories about Kal....I have seen people in Haynes Park rapt with attention when the Dark Prince's name is uttered...it strengthens your belief in Baba Ji through fear and a part of us likes being afraid because it means we have to seek security which leads to....you guessed it...Baba Ji)....and you have a cult with all the intrigue and mystery to lure most people into the fold.

Looking back at some of the stories I heard about GSD and my own personal experiences...well let's put it this way...on the day that I was initiated...I knew it was all wrong...on that exact day! Kind of like when you lose your virginity to the wrong person and afterwards you look at the person next to you and think..."I made a mistake here"...it was that kind of feeling....I gave it the benefit of the doubt....and then I discovered this site and other disgruntled ex-satsangis who could be open to express their dissapointments...it was really a breath of fresh air.....because when one is involved in such a cult one is duped into all sorts of feelings of self guilt and insecurity for doubting and questioning the path.

To the RSSB lovers out there...I do feel empathy for you all...and I know it must really bother you hearing the comments of true seekers like Tara and Tao but please try to understand that people like Tara and Tao been to the mountain top and it ain't what you say! It is important for us all to have an outlet to express ourselves and humour one another.

In RSSB, we were taught to hate time as it was an aspect of Kal Niranjan; the negative power....Satasngi's spend years being antogonistic towards the most precious thing any living being can have.....Time....Time has value....even the almighty Gurinder Singh Dhillon who you consider to be the incarnation of Sat Puresh cannot give you time back....What is in order is a DeLorean with a Flux Capacitator and an engine that can hit 88mph but I digress somewhat....my point is...I spent a long time believeing in GSD etc and then I found something even more fulfilling to believe in....myself....confidence is a slow process...a bit like arderous meditation but I assure anybody here...unlike contemplating on the Master's form...confidence is so worth it! When I believed in GSD I read alot about humility...when I found confidence within through hardship etc....I experienced humility first hand....enclosing....to Tara and Tao in particular...thank you for taking the time and effort to putting your thoughts on here....I am sure that I speak for others when I say that your comments are most appreciated and thank you to Brian for putting the site up....it has become the voice of the voiceless.

[Aman]

There are so many controversies floating around related to Radha Soami..... I don't know whats right or wrong..... But my experience is not good either wit them..... http://dilkhichdi.blogspot.in/2012/03/mann-jeete-jag-jeet-conquer-your-mind.html

[dynyaneshwar]

my babgi is god dnyaneshwar