Religious institutions often have an intimate relationship with money. The hugely rich Catholic Church comes to mind, naturally. There's nothing inherently wrong with this.
People simply should be aware when spirituality gets tangled up with financial dealings, and make up their own minds about what, if anything, it means to them.
In that spirit, someone forwarded me an email message regarding Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) that reportedly has been circulating among members of this India-based organization.
RSSB, as a branch of the Sant Mat ("Path of Saints") religious philosophy, is led by a guru who is considered by the faithful to be God in human form. Or at least, as divinely realized as any human being can be.
The current RSSB guru is Gurinder Singh Dhillon. The email says that he has two sons, Gurpreet Singh Dhillon (age 26) and Gurkirat Singh Dhillon (age 20). I wasn't able to confirm this by any online information, but I checked with the sender of the email and it seems like the information is correct.
(Note: in this blog post I'm sticking to Internet-accessible facts as much as possible. In another post on this subject, I'll be more subjective and share how I feel about those facts, perhaps along with some thoughts from others about the financial dealings related below.)
Gurpreet and Gurkirat are substantial shareholders in a company called Religare. Religare and Fortis, another large Indian company, are part of a family conglomerate headed by Malvinder Singh and Shivinder Singh.
[Update: a commenter on this post wrote, "Malvinder Singh and Shivinder Singh of Ranbaxy are the grandsons of Charan Singh, which makes the current Guru their uncle." This casts a somewhat different light on the facts below, but doesn't affect a central point: spiritual and financial affairs have become intimately intertwined in RSSB.]
As this story says:
Malvinder Singh, who will earn some Rs.100 billion ($2.4 billion) from selling his family’s stake in the pharmaceutical firm to Japan’s Daiichi Sankyo, is now planning to make huge investments in Religare and Fortis, the family’s financial service and healthcare companies. “Healthcare and financial services are two areas where we have existing businesses, where we will make investments,” Ranbaxy CEO and managing director Malvinder Singh said Sunday.
For some perspective, the average per capita income in India is about $1,000 (U.S.), while in the United States it is about $39,000. So millions and billions that seem like a lot of money here are considerably farther out of the ordinary for most Indians.
Malvinder Singh, an initiate of RSSB, is deeply involved in the Radha Soami Satsang Beas organization, as is the rest of his family.
This helps explain why the RSSB guru's sons, Gurpreet and Gurkirat, each ended up with about 10% of the shares in Religare according to a 2007 prospectus. On page 25 it says that Malvinder Singh and Shivinder Singh were allotted 49,575,000 equity shares in Religare at 10 rupees (about 23 cents) a share.
Malvinder then transferred 6,250,000 shares to Gurpreet Singh, and Shivinder transferred 6,250,000 shares to Gurkirat Singh under guardianship of Ms. Shabnam Dhillon -- almost certainly because Gurkirat is only twenty years old.
The cost also was 10 rupees a share. So the guru's sons each got 6,250,000 shares of Religare for $1,437,500 or thereabouts through an insider deal. The share price on April 6, 2010 was 395.80. Thus, converting into dollars, 6,250,000 shares of Religare currently are worth $55,716,271 (today's exchange rate shows 1 rupee = .022523 US$).
This explains how Gurpreet and Gurkirat appear on a 2009 "Billionaire Club" list of wealthy Indians. They're ranked near the bottom at 364 and 365.
(A billion rupees is only $22,523,000, so it's a lot easier to be a billionaire in India. Interestingly, though, the rupee is worth about 1/44 of a dollar, and the per capita income in India is about 1/39 of the United States per capita income. So seemingly Gurpreet and Gurkirat's net worth makes them the Indian equivalent of an American billionaire.)
The guru's sons seemingly acquired even more Religare shares recently, according to this insider trading report. It appears that each son got 6,183,000 additional shares (for a total of about 12,400,000 shares).
And the RSSB guru himself -- Gurinder Singh Dhillon -- got 26,333, leaving him with a total of 65,833 (or about $587,000 worth).
So the question is... so what?
Well, as I said above, that's a subject for a follow-up post. What I've shared here simply are publicly available facts, accessible to anyone with a web browser via some Google'ing.
As this Indian blogger notes, "Gods and Godmen have always had their role to play in the world of business."
For instance, the patriarch of the Radha Soami sect headquartered at Beas (he is also called the Beas Sant or the saint of Beas) is reported to have played his role in the succession drama at Ranbaxy after the death of then CEO and promoter Parvinder Singh in 1999.
The use of gurus isn’t an oddity in the global business environment. After all they fall in the same category as mentors, executive coaches, and consultants.
Hmmmm. I can't agree with that last statement.
But maybe I have an old-fashioned view of what the role of a spiritual guru is supposed to be. I'll have more to say on this subject in my next post.
Guru's and Religious Leaders can't win for losing; If they live off of donations they're lazy beggars accepting handouts, if they get paid a salary they become professional priests sponging off their congregation, if they earn money through business investments they're greedy materialists obsessed with money.
Posted by: dj | April 09, 2010 at 01:26 PM
dj, none of the scenarios you mentioned are in play here. This is a case of a guru's sons, and the guru himself, being "gifted" (through insider trading) tens of millions of dollars worth of stock by wealthy initiates. In a few days I'll explain why this is ethically problematical.
Posted by: Brian Hines | April 09, 2010 at 01:35 PM
I agree with this question - "So the question is... so what?"
Also - "a guru's sons, and the guru himself, being "gifted" (through insider trading) tens of millions of dollars worth of stock by wealthy initiates" - what initiates do with their money is their business, isn't it?
Posted by: Jen | April 09, 2010 at 03:49 PM
I wonder if the stocks pay a decent dividend?
That would allow the son's to receive income without having to sell shares - and probably enough money for a pretty comfy existence.
Posted by: Bob | April 09, 2010 at 04:57 PM
well i'm sorry if these ppl truly have dicsovered a nobler truth to it all, they sure as shit should not be concerned with money, in fact, that should go directly to those who need it, even i know that and i aint no satguru.
Posted by: George | April 09, 2010 at 05:15 PM
Posted by: Many Splits - Tara | April 09, 2010 at 07:02 PM
Although it happens every day, "insider trading" is illegal in the United States. Remember the Martha Stewart incarceration?
I don't know Indian law regarding this, but without further information it would appear that Gurinder and family are benefiting unethically at the least and possibly illegally.
That would be an interesting headline..."Beas Satguru Under Arrest, Family Finances Being Audited". Shades of the Rajneesh cult here in the U.S.
Could this be the unveiling-unraveling of RSSB? Probably not. You can say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
Posted by: tucson | April 09, 2010 at 07:11 PM
Well, to start with, I don't know of many people know about this !
Till a couple of years ago, the RSSB website gave just the address of the Dera. Now they feel the need to inform people about how the Guru earns his living. I guess they forgot to add ' Religare ' to the acres of wheat and mustard produce -
( Click - Baba Gurinder Singh )
Posted by: Many Splits - Tara | April 09, 2010 at 07:45 PM
tucson, when I refer to "insider trading," I was thinking of trading shares between company insiders. This is what happened in this case. A founder/owner of Religare acquired a bunch of shares and transferred some of them to the guru's sons.
I think it's reasonable to call this insider trading, and it would get reported as such. But this is a different sort of thing from the Martha Stuart affair, where shares were sold on a public stock exchange on the basis of insider information.
Like you said, that is illegal. But granting shares to certain people favored by a company at a low cost is legal. This is often used to reward executives, or compensate them in lieu of a higher salary.
Jen, my next post will discuss the ethics of these financial dealings. It's a bit simplistic to say that people can do whatever they want with their money. Actually, both legal and moral standards argue against that statement.
Consider this: instead of a Indian guru and his family, substitute the Pope (imagine that he was a family man, being head of a different Catholic church), or a psychiatrist .
You've learned that the Pope's family, or the psychiatrist's family, has just been given many millions of dollars by a devoted Catholic believer, or by a patient in long-term psychotherapeutic treatment.
Wouldn't this raise some red flags for you? Wouldn't you wonder about the propriety of a religious leader, or secular counselor, personally getting large financial benefit from someone under their tutelage, or care?
It's something to think about, anyway. I'll offer up more food for thought in my next post.
Posted by: Brian Hines | April 09, 2010 at 08:25 PM
Brian, regarding legal and moral arguments, you say that “granting shares to certain people favored by a company at a low cost is legal”. Okay, so that leaves moral standards and this I don’t understand either, because this is about Gurinder Singh’s family finances, which has nothing to do with the RSSB organization’s funds.
George, the RSSB Dera regularly provides free meals to the hundreds of thousands of local visitors and also free hospital care. Westerners can visit the Dera and stay for free and there is no obligation to donate in money seva.
I’m not convinced that there is anything wrong about these financial transactions and I don’t know why I care about fairness but I do! :)
Posted by: Jen | April 09, 2010 at 09:42 PM
Jen, in that case wouldn't it be fair for a RS-representative to stop a visibly poor man from putting his few cents into the money-box ?
RSSB takes from the bottom line, that is their main devotee-bank.
I don't know if you have seen the langar ( free-meal ) facility at the Dera. It may be worth comparing it to some other free-meal facilities of other institutions who have less than half the donation amounts coming in.
Posted by: Many Splits - Tara | April 09, 2010 at 10:04 PM
Many Splits, a story in one of the Sant Mat books that moves me very much is about a very old man who had walked for miles to visit the Dera and then stood in line to give his donation of one rupee into money seva and the Master or the sevadar did not want to take it and the old man was heartbroken and broke down in tears until his seva was then accepted. The devotional aspect of this story affects me because who are we to deny someone else’s faith and devotion and that which means so much to them.
I have visited the Dera and was there at the monthly satsang when there were hundreds of thousands of people and I was moved to see them lining up in queues for their free meal and seeing them sitting on the ground eating and then cleaning their plate for the next person and I don’t see anything wrong with this. This is their custom and it is their normal practice to sit on the ground and eat in this manner. I’m surprised that you expect anything different and I’m quite sure they don’t. There is a huge divide in India between the very rich and the extremely poor as you well know. It’s a pity that some of the millionaires in India don’t do more for the poor.
Posted by: Jen | April 09, 2010 at 10:38 PM
Jen, you seem to have missed my point. Or else you have a considerably looser view of what is ethical than I do.
As I'll discuss in my next post, it is generally considered wrong for a person in a position of power to engage in business dealing with "underlings." This is called a "dual relationship" in psychotherapeutic circles.
The guru is considered to be God in human form by devotees. The guru is believed to control the initiate's karma/life/afterlife. Many, if not most, RSSB initiates would do anything the guru commands, or wants. Service to the guru is viewed as service to God.
So do you really think that it is acceptable for this "seva" (service) to consist of giving many millions of dollars to the guru and his family? Does this strike you as something Jesus or Buddha would tolerate or expect? (The RSSB guru is viewed as akin to Jesus by initiates, since he is a son of God sent to redeem/save selected souls.)
Religare is an organization controlled by RSSB initiates who reportedly are directed by the guru in their business dealings. Which include the transfer of millions of shares of Religare to the guru's sons (and a lesser amount of shares to the guru himself).
I find this strange. It seems that you don't. I guess we can simply agree to disagree about what sorts of behavior are expected of a guru.
Posted by: Brian Hines | April 09, 2010 at 10:40 PM
Well, of course I took the ball and ran with it to a conclusion that probably will not manifest, just for the fun of it. There may not be any legal impropriety.
But, it certainly appears incongruous, unseemly and suspicious that the supposed embodiment of transcendent perfection as taught by RSSB, who has access to planes of conscious so sublime that this physical universe appears as a small speck of filth by comparison, would be taking advantage of connections from within the RSSB organization to accumulate the wealth of a world decried and disparaged in the RSSB literature and satsangs.
Posted by: tucson | April 09, 2010 at 10:50 PM
Brian, I'm looking forward to your next post and also to other comments, hopefully not just about looking for fault to justify their position in moving away from Sant Mat.
Posted by: Jen | April 09, 2010 at 10:53 PM
Jen, that was a sweet story from a sweet Sant Mat book, and that was probably in the age of Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji or Maharaj Charan Singh Ji. Though India is pretty much on an economic upswing, the old man who stands in the line to put his pennies in the money-box is still as poor as the guy in the story. On the other hand, RSSB has grown into a power-house with a billionaire Guru at the helm who is on a ( personal and professional ) economic roll.
Quoting you -
" There is a huge divide in India between the very rich and the extremely poor as you well know. It’s a pity that some of the millionaires in India don’t do more for the poor... "
Yes, there is a huge divide between the rich and the poor here in India, but let me tell you that the CSR initiatives by India's leading companies are shaping up to do their bit. What does RSSB do for the same impoverished lot that form the single largest majority of their following ? Very, very little - almost nothing. And, just about an hour ago, I confirmed with someone who works at Religare that Religare has no CSR initiative ! I would like to think that God would want to do some charity if he was a co-owner of a two billion dollar business house.
Langar or free-meal facilities are a common practice within many religious, spiritual and charitable organizations here in India. My point was, that with the kind of money that RSSB gets, they are in a position to give much more than bread and lentil in their free-meal facility. Did they really need to buy that property for ' seva ' in Amsterdam ? What you are witnessing now is the expansion of a cult, where the priorities now are quite different from the days of the Great Masters.
Posted by: Many Splits - Tara | April 09, 2010 at 11:32 PM
Tucson, that was very well said !
Jen, I have now come to believe that RSSB and Sant Mat are quite different.
Posted by: Many Splits - Tara | April 09, 2010 at 11:40 PM
After reading the comment by Many Splits I had to look up what CSR meant: it's Corporate Social Responsibility. Sounds like a good thing, whether in India or elsewhere.
Posted by: Brian Hines | April 10, 2010 at 12:23 AM
I am basically in complete agreement with Brian on this matter. It is outrageous that the guru of RSSB and his immediate family have been given gifts of stock worth 50+ million dollars each. This is unethical and improper in the extreme, and for many reasons. Jen apparently has no sense of right and wrong. The RS guru is not some solitary private person, he is a pubic religious figure, and it is incredibly inappropriate for him and his sons to be personally accepting tens of millions of dollars from some billionaire satsangi who made his money in big pharma (Ranbaxy). It is absolutely unethical. What is the matter with you Jen?
The RSSB and especially its leader and his family, are deeply corrupted. It is wrong for a person in such a position of power to engage in business dealing with underlings. Its disgusting and deplorable.
It is laugable that anyone thinks that giving some meagre hand-out of daal and chapatis to the poor somehow absolves or vindicates the RS leader and his family from the burden of responsibility. Only a fool would think this way.
I am amazed (but not surpised) that RS believers have so little integrity so as to turn a blind eye to such financial shenanigans and impropriety on the part of the guru and his family.
I find that very strange indeed.
And Jen, this is not at all about folks "looking for fault to justify their position in moving away from Sant Mat". It is about the RS guru's corruption and lack of ethics and lack of responsibility to his followers.
Posted by: tAo | April 10, 2010 at 01:25 AM
Hi tAo !
The strange thing is that not many RS believers know about this !
Every single person I spoke to earlier in the day seemed shocked. It is indeed big news to them. Well, on a regular day, who would go to the SEBI - Securities & Exchange Board of India website and search for shareholding patterns in a company called Religare ? This has deliberately been kept undercover, for very obvious reasons of course !
Malvinder Singh and Shivinder Singh of Ranbaxy are the grandsons of Charan Singh, which makes the current Guru their uncle.
Posted by: Many Splits - Tara | April 10, 2010 at 02:17 AM
I sent the link of this post to the few ' open-minded ' RS believers I know.
I received a reply on my cellphone from one of them -
HOLY GRAIL / MONEY TRAIL
Posted by: Many Splits - Tara | April 10, 2010 at 02:35 AM
tAo, I can almost see you rubbing your hands together with glee, licking your lips and going heh heh, got them now!
Oh well, I just see family business... separate to sangat business... whatever
Posted by: Jen | April 10, 2010 at 02:41 AM
Yes I have heard that about the Dera and hospital and it is very good, but if this is all just a front for their real business of making real money then its bullshit.
Any money they get should be plowed right back into their community if they are truly these enlightened beings that they are supposed to be.
I mean wtf does god in human form need billions of dollar for?
This is exactly why i am so weary of these mystical charlatans.
Posted by: George | April 10, 2010 at 03:44 AM
The money making is fine provided it is redirected straight back into the community, but if these ppl and their families are leading lavish lifestyles and accumulating wealth as a result of the movement; that is absolute nonsense, absolute rubbish - and it says more about their spirituality or lack thereof, then anyone ever could, and actually if there is a higher power, these chisellers should be the first to get some karmic mumbo jumbo payback.
Posted by: George | April 10, 2010 at 03:50 AM
There is a large-scale expansion plan for the Dera which is underway, and in my opinion the Dera has lost the quiet charm it had in the days of Charan Singh. Since I was going there since a very young age, I can see the change for myself. I often heard the elders in my family talking about Charan Singh's dislike of turning the RSSB into a mass, quasi-religious movement. But that is exactly what his successor is doing.
Is the money being redirected straight back into the community ? I do not know, he may have given a substantial amount to the RSSB trust. But then, like one of the many ' miracles ' we hear about, someone would have praised the generosity of the Guru, like - " Did you hear that Babaji gave one million dollars to the trust ! " Well, nobody's heard that !
Posted by: Many Splits - Tara | April 10, 2010 at 05:37 AM
It is an eye opener. I also remember Baba Faqir Chand, a Radhasoami guru prohibited his blood relations from becoming members of the trust he created for his Temple of Humanity. His mission is still in poor condition. Telling truth does not help build big Deras. However I am committed to the thought that all innocent believers, whether Indian or American, have to be on their guards.
Posted by: Bharat | April 10, 2010 at 07:51 AM
Jen wrote: "tAo, I can almost see you rubbing your hands together with glee, licking your lips and going heh heh, got them now!"
-- Jen... on the contrary, I find this all rather sad and unfortunate. I don't enjoy seeing RS leadership involved in unethical behavior of this kind or degree. You have a wrong impression about me. I am not like the way you seem to presume that I am.
You say that the master and his family business is personal, private, and separate from the RS org. I do not agree. This was not minor wealth that was accrued through honest hard work on the part of G.S. or his sons, it was a vast sum of money that was a gift that most likely had some strings attached. So its time to wake up and smell the doo-doo.
Posted by: tAo | April 10, 2010 at 11:47 PM
tAo, I agree, there probably is some kind of trade-off in place. Malvinder Singh comes across like a shrewd businessman, and in my opinion it is highly unlikely that he has given away millions for nothing in return.
Posted by: Tara - Many Splits | April 11, 2010 at 02:50 AM
Sorry if my comment about you was a bit over the top. I am quite fond of you, just as I am of the others on this blog and it is wrong of me to make presumptions. It was a kind of joke that was a bit off which I realized after I had posted it. No bad feelings I hope :)
As far as the RS org goes I’ve decided to become more detached from it all now, which is probably best for my own good (it takes some time to detach completely).
Posted by: Jen | April 11, 2010 at 02:54 AM
It really only shows how typically worldy and totally mundane as an economic not for profit RSSB is.All that is brought up by Brian over and over again points to this very fact.
Posted by: Dogribb | April 11, 2010 at 09:30 AM
ਮਾਇਆ ਮਮਤਾ ਮੋਹਣੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਵਿਣੁ ਦੰਤਾ ਜਗੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥(੬੪੩-੧੮, ਵਾਰ-ਸੋਰਠਿ, ਮ ੩) The love of Maya is enticing; without teeth, it has eaten up the world. Bewitching is the love of wealth, which without teeth, has eaten up the world.
FEATURES OF SO CALLED GURUS:--
1.They wear loin-cloths three and a half yards long, and there fold sacred threads.
2.They have rosaries around their necks and glittering jugs in their hands.
3.They are not called the saints of God, but the cheats of Kanshi.
4.Such saints are not pleasing to me, They devour trees including their stems.
5.They scrub their vessels and put them on fire and born the wood after washing.
6.Digging up the earth, they, make two fire-places and eat up the whole man.
7.Those sinners ever wander in evil deeds and call themselves touch me not supreme saints.
8.Ever and over they roam about in self-conceit and drown all their families.
9.Because of the love of sons, relations and house-wife man is engrossed in the desire for fascinating mammon.(sggs ang 63)
10.Practising great deceit, the man acquires other's wealth.Coming home, he squanders it on his sons and wife.
11.Outwardly wearing religious garbs, inwardly has the filth of worldliness.
12.O Sire, many men wear various religious garbs for begging and for filling their bellies.
Posted by: SHABADGURU786 | April 12, 2010 at 10:30 PM
Gurus should forgo personal wealth when taking on the job. A small sum of money should be paid out for personal use and Guru's relatives should earn their livings through the profession or trade that they have studied. All gifted money should go to the organisation only and be carefully monitored by external audits. Religious organisations that are not distributing a percentage of their money to charity, should be taxed. The guru should have a monitored say in how money is spent on the organisation.
With the current focus on Darwinism, it does seem that the impulse for the survival (thrival) of the genes is in fact inherent and overrides all others.
Posted by: Catherine | April 15, 2010 at 07:30 PM
Tao said,This was not minor wealth that was accrued through honest hard work on the part of G.S. or his sons, it was a vast sum of money that was a gift that most likely had some strings attached.
It is very likely that the shares of Religare transferred to Gurinder and his sons may be in compensation of some services provided by the Guru, because big businesses/ big deals in India can never be run, finalized and executed without the help of mediators of good approach and political connections and it seems that Gurinder would be a key person in providing these services, as is quite normal with most of the Gurus. I have always a feeling that the first line SEVADARS and the family members of the Guru would not give a dime to each other for free.
Even most of the lands acquired/purchased by RSSB are registered with the Registration Authorities for not more than 1 to 10 percent of the price paid for.
Posted by: Juan | April 16, 2010 at 06:25 AM
Shut up! If your information is right, and if this all calculations are correct why don't anyone of you pitch your voice in media. I know you won't because the piece of information on which you are jumping is just as fake as your intentions are. There are things that media has highlighted in recent past and they were not even a part of such a big scandal that you have mentioned. Why don't you file a case against Guru or Organisation. You don't have any choice shameless bloggers! you have got plentiful of time and thats what you profession is -" Doing nothing and defaming those who are doing good".
Come on now, don't reply me back. If you have guts I wan't to see you and hear your voice on NEWS channels next time I switch on TV and will love to see your petition in court getting proved right."
Please accept this challenge! And enlighten everyone.
Posted by: Deepak Kumar Kushwaha | April 18, 2010 at 01:24 PM
Deepak, the accuracy of the information in the posts about Religare and RSSB hasn't been challenged. So that non-challenge has been won.
No one to my knowledge is saying that anything illegal is involved here. So your comment about a court doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure what you're bothered about.
If you have different facts to share, please do. Otherwise, everyone -- including you, naturally -- is free to interpret the facts as they wish.
Posted by: Brian Hines | April 18, 2010 at 04:09 PM
--The RSSB cult-is like all the other cults.a strong armed approach to controlling the ignorant masses--who will donate their blood,sweat, and tears to "Perfect Living Masters". Look how the Roman Catholic church has duped BILLIONS for Millenia-no big deal.All I truly believe are the 4 Yugas--and thank whatever that the Kali Yuga will close with a BANG(and soon I hope)-v152
Posted by: Jennifer Morrison | April 18, 2010 at 05:45 PM
Mr. Deepak Kumar Kushwaha - Radha Soami Jee ! Radha Soami Jee !
It was great to read your comment, please do not leave this site, we need people like you here. I mean it !
So, you are saying that the SEBI website is a fake ?
Either you are illiterate or a fool, maybe both.
Posted by: Arjun | April 18, 2010 at 09:15 PM
anybody care to elaborate what these Religare share transfer 'facts' might be?
That one share holder transferred certain legitimately acquired shares to another within familial circles, or what exactly is the underlying crime you are alluding to here?
Posted by: halcatraz | April 19, 2010 at 12:24 PM
halcatraz, I have never said that anything illegal went on here. So where do you get this idea of a "crime"?
Everyone has to decide what the facts mean to them. For me, I found the notion of a guru's sons becoming hugely rich through the actions of a disciple (who also is a relative) rather disturbing, in light of the RSSB philosophy and how the organization operated in the "old days" prior to Gurinder Singh.
Also interesting is the fact that high-ranking members of RSSB are also intimately involved with Religare, which reportedly is essentially being managed by the guru.
I don't know what you mean by "elaborate." The facts are there in the Religare prospectus, and the other sources cited in the posts. Facts are facts. The meaning we give to them is up to us.
Posted by: Brian Hines | April 19, 2010 at 12:43 PM
Halcatraz and Deepak,
Nobody is talking about legality here. Use your grey matter a little bit which you have put on a side while surrendering to the cult.
RSSB gurus or their clan are not supposed to take any money from any disciple for their personal use. It's obvious that Gurinder Singh is using his Godly status to get this huge amount of money. If Ranbaxy owner wants to donate money, it should go to RSSB foundation.
If I want to work on Religare, will they give me the same share:) What is the basis of giving so much money to guru's sons? Just because they are sons of the so called GOD? What does Gurinder singh and his sons have done to get this much share? How come they are partners in this business?
Cultic mind of satsangis will never question this.
Posted by: sapient | April 19, 2010 at 03:21 PM
I would like to disclose a very important thing to all disciples of Radhaswami sect that when they can not recite any Baani of their own on death of somebody, to pray for the peace upon the dead soul. Their Gurus or administrators also need to bow before Guru Granth Sahab ji to perform last rites. How could they provide you anything during your life time.Their marriage ceremony is also completed as ANAND KARZ infront of Sri GURU GRANTH SAHEB JI. I mean, Are they in position to fulfil your wishes of money, son, a home or any other materialistic need which some one prays to almighty Waheguru?
These fake gurus only have tact make fool of poor people by using their money , physical power as so called sewa .money is only their MOTO.
All the five words (jot niranjan,oonkar ,rarnkar, sohang, satnam)guru give to people are taken from Guru Granth Sahib ji. What the originallity they have? nothing..... nothing....
The Indian Express, Chandigarh, Jun. 2, 2006
(Former S.G.P.C. member Amrinder Singh today alleged that the Radha Soami Satsang Beas had usurped land in Beas which was originally donated to Sri Guru Granth Sahib by name.
Releasing documents to attest his claim, Amrinder Singh stated that land worth nine kanals [1.125 acres; 1 kanal = 0.125 acres] was gifted by a devout Sikh to Guru Granth Sahib in 1932. 'Under the revenue records, it continued to be in the name of Guru Granth Sahib till 1985, when the name of Guru Granth Sahib was removed from the column of ownership in the Punjab government revenue records,' he alleged.
The process began in 1983, when the Punjab government suddenly issued a notification for consolidation of land. By 1985, the Radha Soami dera had effectively usurped the land.
Producing copies of the gift of land, Amrinder stated that the gift was made by Santa Singh of village Wraich, district Amritsar. It was during the tenure of A.C. Sen as commissioner of Jalandhar Division, Patwari Teja Singh and Qanungo Hans Raj that the notification for consolidation was made.
Amrinder Singh demanded an inquiry by the Punjab government into the transfer of land and sought the immediate intervention of the Punjab D.G.P. into the affair. 'Government should appoint an inquiry into the embezzlement of the property of Guru Granth Sahib, which enjoys the status of Guru,' he said. He further sought a rectification of record and restoration of land to Guru Granth Sahib. The place, Jaimal Singh has historical importance for the Sikh community, since the last rites of Mata Ganga, the mother of the fifth Sikh Guru were performed at this place. Guru Hargobind, the sixth Sikh guru also participated in the ceremony, Amrinder added.
Posted by: hunar007 | April 20, 2010 at 12:10 AM
hunar, interesting story. Only in India, probably, could a holy book be a landowner. How does that work? Do Sikhs really believe that the Guru Granth Sahib is a person?
Posted by: Brian Hines | April 20, 2010 at 10:01 AM
[I've shortened this comment because it was excessively long and not focused on the subject of the post. -- Blogger Brian]
for doctors your body is only blood ,bones flesh, tendons, arteries, veins .if more deep study you are collection of
various metabolic functions ,enzymes , hormones but for your relatives like son/daughter/wife /mother you are father
brian/husband brian/son brian.
For others GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI is a holy book . but for sikhs it is "SHABAD GURU " as gurbani says.:---
Gurbani is the embodiment of the Guru and the Guru is the embodiment of Gurbani. In the whole of Gurbani is
contained the Nectar.If the attendant acts up to what Gurbani enjoys, the Guru in person(verily) saves him.
PLZ READ THIS JUDGEMENT:----
In a judgment entitled Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee Amritsar v. Som Nath Dass and others delivered on March 29, 2000, the Supreme Court of India has held that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is a juristic person. Its impact was not properly understood and correctly appreciated in the beginning. It gave rise to some misconceptions, apprehensions and queries. The Sikhs felt alarmed and disturbed. Misinformation might have led to some sort of agitation. Various questions that cropped up about the judgment were as under-
Does it hold Guru Granth Sahib simply a person? Is it appropriate to call Guru Granth Sahib a person or a juristic person instead of Guru?
Whether the judgment denigrates Sikhism and Guru Granth Sahib?
Does it uphold the independent and separate identity of Sikhism?
Has Guru Granth Sahib been equated with Hindu idol or deity?
Has it made the Holy Sikh scripture subject to the jurisdiction of worldly courts and facilitated to drag its name irreverently before the courts just like ordinary property holders?
Can the suits and claims be filed against every copy of Guru Granth Sahib?
Will it now become necessary to take Sri Guru Granth Sahib to courts?
Can the individuals destroying the copies of Guru Granth Sahib be convicted for murder?
Whether the non-Sikh judges properly comprehended the Sikh principles and traditions?
Such queries have prompted to go through the judgment minutely and to dilate upon it. The judgment answers most of the queries but before discussing the judgment in detail, some of the questions may be answered.
First we should know whether the ten Sikh Gurus were persons? If they were so, it will not be inappropriate to call Guru Granth Sahib a person or juristic person. The Sikh Gurus lived on this earth in flesh and blood like other human beings. They were human beings but they were ideal, prefect, holy and sinless human beings.
Posted by: hunar007 | April 21, 2010 at 01:40 AM
Tara's post previous reads:
"This entire issue is not about what is " legal " but all about what is " moral " in accordance with the dictates of Sant Mat. "
What is moral when it comes to a Sant/Guru? Is not the Sant given carte blanche by faithful devotees?
to quote Karl Potter in his book Presuppositions of Indian Philosophy:
"There can really be no doubt about the supremacy of control and freedom over morality among Indian ideals in the mind of anyone who has read the tales of ancient India or who has studied yoga or who has read the attributes of a good teacher (guru) in INDIAN sources.*..... the yogi is one who seeks to pass beyond good and evil, that the injunctions of the Vedas which prescribe morally correct actions do not apply to the true yogi, and that it is accepted in many circles that the path of the saint may well involve him in external behaviors which in others would be highly inappropriate.”
*(i.e., not Julian Johnson)
Posted by: Jon Weiss | April 21, 2010 at 01:17 PM
"GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI is a holy book."
-- who says? that is only your belief.
"it is SHABAD GURU"
-- again, this is merely your own personal belief.
"as gurbani says.:"
-- who gives a damn what the gurbani says. as if that is some sort of supreme authority? you are so full of dogma that you are out of touch with reality.
"Gurbani is the embodiment of the Guru and the Guru is the embodiment of Gurbani."
-- thats just another stupid religious belief.
"In the whole of Gurbani is
contained the Nectar."
-- more rubbish.
"the Guru in person(verily) saves him."
-- childish nonsense imo.
"it will not be inappropriate to call Guru Granth Sahib a person or juristic person."
-- this is delusional nonsense.
"The Sikh Gurus lived on this earth in flesh and blood like other human beings. They were human beings but they were ideal, prefect, holy and sinless human beings."
-- if you believe that, then you lack rationality and reason, and you are deluded.
hunar007, why are you coming here to a site that is said to be "CHURCHLESS" (ie: non-religious), yet you are posting lots of Sikh religious dogma and other foolishness? Why?
You should go to a sikh website if you wish to preach your sikh religious dogma. I think Brian is only tolerating and permitting a portion of it to serve as an example of how religious nuts like you think.
I don't give a damn about your sikh religious beliefs, and why should I?
You think that everyone should bow to all of your Sikh religious dogma and your worship of the Guru Granth nonsense?
What the hell is the matter with you?
Wake up to reality hunar007.
Posted by: tAo | April 21, 2010 at 02:00 PM
Jon Weiss - The underlying expression of your comments are racist.
Posted by: Arjun | April 21, 2010 at 06:55 PM
No Arjun, YOU are wrong. YOU are the one who is racist apprently... because YOU are the one who sees some issue of race here.
Mr Weiss never actually mentioned or implied anything about race. He merely quoted out of Karl Potter's book regarding morality and the tales of ancient India.
Jon Weiss merely stated & asked: "What is moral when it comes to a Sant/Guru? Is not the Sant given carte blanche by faithful devotees?" [yes, that seems to be true]
So YOU are the one who is concerned with race here, not Jon Weiss. There was nothing racist at all in his comment.
[and btw... I happen to agree with what Mr Weiss has pointed out.]
Posted by: tAo | April 21, 2010 at 10:44 PM
i have been reading your comments since a few days....well let me make a few things clear,which i have studied from my side
1) the shares of religare enterprise which were bought by gurpreet and gurkirit at face value were brought much before the initial ipo, so no question of insider trading comes into picture, and also the shares were not alloted just coz they were guru's son but coz of blood relation between malvinder,shivinder and gurpreet and gurkirit.....it is very common in world and especially in india to give shares at face value to close relations or to the promoters.....and it was no where hidden from the world as the red herring prospectus clearly states it...and as you are aware that gurpreet is presently working also for religare in U.K......does being guru's son deny him the right to do investments and earn like all of do.....and till now none of radha soami initiates have given any stake to any guru or guru's relatives......this religare affair is a family affair and not a guru and initiate affair.......,
Posted by: tk | April 22, 2010 at 01:27 AM
tao - I'm quoting Jon Weiss from a previous comment : " Having said this, the invalidation may be more offensive to a western disciple than an Asian disciple. Western outlook is rooted in different ideals. India does not seem to have the same loyalty to artless honesty, but rather 3 thousand years of slippery ethics that leaves Machiavelli lookin' boorish and unperceptive. In fact India has to be one of the most $$$ corrupt ( by Western standards ) countries on the planet... they even managed to pull a fast one on the World Bank ! "
Well, he does tend to put all Indians in one box !
Posted by: Arjun | April 22, 2010 at 02:04 AM
Cannot blame cults for trapping people if the people are willing to be trapped.
Posted by: Arjun | April 22, 2010 at 02:46 AM
tk, "insider trading" refers both to legal and illegal insider transactions. This definitely was an instance of insider trading, because it was a share transaction by a company insider.
You don't know why the shares were transferred to the guru's sons. You're speculating that it was a family gift. I've suggested that the issue of "dual relationships" also comes into play, since the guru is both a relative of the Singh brothers and also their spiritual master. Thus business/financial dealings get mixed up with religious/mystical dealings.
Further, you (like other commenters) ignore the other close connections between RSSB and Religare -- such as how many RSSB higher-ups are working for the company and serve on the board of directors.
So your statement that the RSSB-Religare connection is a family affair and not a guru and initiate affair isn't true.
Posted by: Brian Hines | April 22, 2010 at 11:18 AM
An interesting article from Forbes on business problems in India, the following was abstracted from that Forbes article:
"The really serious problem here," Singh stated, "is that the prevalence of corruption in the Indian economy may well have distorted cultural norms within the society. Yet I am also aware of countervailing forces, so I do not want to overstate the case.
"But to the extent that change in cultural norms will be needed to root out corruption, it will take a persistent, long, drawn-out effort. While economic change is easier to achieve, cultural change is much slower and more difficult. This is compounded by the rearguard actions of those who are beneficiaries of the status quo."
Posted by: Jon Weiss | April 22, 2010 at 02:23 PM
Arjun, yes Mr. Weiss did say: "India has to be one of the most $$$ corrupt ( by Western standards ) countries on the planet"... but that is simply his own considered opinion about corruption in India. It is not a "racist" statement, as you wrongly claim. Your use of the term "racist" is an incorrect choice of words.
Arjun also later said: "Cannot blame cults for trapping people if the people are willing to be trapped." -- I disagree. Cults do trap people who are naive and unsuspecting. Cults like RS promote all sorts of bogus beliefs and dogma and illusions which are desiged to be appealing to spiritual seekers. The seekers are not at all aware of this, so cults like RS are tricking and deceiving (and consequently trapping) the seekers without them knowing. So the fault and the blame lays squarely upon the RS cult and their appealing but deceptive mystical dogma, and not with the trusting seekers. The blame is with the cult, not those who are fooled by the cult and its leader or spiritual master.
Posted by: tAo | April 22, 2010 at 03:02 PM
tao - how can Jon assume that " the invalidation may be more offensive to a western disciple than an Asian disciple " or " Western outlook is rooted in different ideals. India does not seem to have the same loyalty to artless honesty, but rather 3 thousand years of slippery ethics " ( ?? ) It may be his opinion, but is severely generalized.
The RS cult traps people who surrender to their brainwashing. I did, my cousins did and in hindsight we feel like we were tricked into something that we were not weary of in the beginning. I'm in agreement with your views, I've been in that situation and disconnecting from RS was very difficult in the end.
Posted by: Arjun | April 22, 2010 at 09:21 PM
you call him a Satsangare...
Posted by: kodjo | April 23, 2010 at 06:37 AM
I would like to propose a different viewpoint. Here are the facts:
a) Malvinder Singh of Ranbaxy invested a huge amount in Religare, thereby acquiring a large number of shares.
b) He then transferred a significant fraction of these shares to Gurpreet Singh Dhillon and Gurkirat Singh Dhillon, and some to Gurinder Singh Dhillon.
Now, considering that Gurpreet and Gurkirat are Malvinder's cousins, and Gurinder is his uncle, what's wrong with this? Maybe he wanted to give a gift to his relatives. This isn't some stranger giving a gift to the Guru's family. The key point is that Malvinder is not just a Radha Soami follower, he is a family member.
To me, this transaction sounds independent of the Radha Soami organization. It's a family matter.
Posted by: Tom | April 23, 2010 at 06:51 AM
@ Tom - - - Religare was founded by the Ranbaxy brothers ( Malvinder Singh & Shivinder Singh ) so it is not like they went shopping and invested a huge sum in some random company, then came home and distributed a part of their acquisition to the RS guru's sons. Religare's stake holders we pre-decided and the shares we allotted at a paltry Rupees 10. Overnight, the guru's two sons got part ownership of a big financial services company. Very lucky right ?
Just to get familial relationships clear, Gurinder is Charan's nephew, so Malvinder's mother ( Nimmie, Charan's daughter ) is Gurinder's cousin. Nimmie's kids ( Malvinder & Shivinder ) and Gurinder's kids ( Gurpreet & Gurkirat ) by relation, are distant cousins then. So, Malvinder and Shivinder decided to give a big chunk of their pie to their cousin-uncle and his sons, while their maternal uncles ( Nimmie's two blood brothers ) have no shareholding ?
Has there been a distribution of wealth across the family ? Not according to the SEBI prospectus. So only the guru and his sons have benefitted ? Why ? What is the bargain ? Is there a barter ? Is it sheer generosity on the part of Malvinder ?
The point to note is that Ranbaxy was in big debts at the time when Religare was founded. These articles will give you the numbers :
The story is that Religare ' grew ' from a one room office into a two billion dollar company. They bought multiple businesses, though the company's turnover has been less than three million dollars this quarter. How did they sustain the capital inflow to buy businesses at a time when the parent company ( Ranbaxy ) was struggling to cope with debts ? Isn't that strange ?
Where did all that money come from ?
The auditors of Religare have the answers.
Posted by: Arjun | April 23, 2010 at 10:43 AM
That is why I chose the word "may".
Yes, of course there will be East Indian disciple's who will find the whole thing offensive. There will be Western disciple's who will shrug and rationalize it all away.
But here has been my experience in India with Indians...they are not quick to take offense. In USA somebody cuts you off in traffic and you might consider ducking. The other driver might take out his gun and shoot you. Can you imagine if this attitude prevailed on India's roads!!!!! All drivers would be dead within a week. This same patience, I feel, is worth acknowledging in respect to how Indian disciple's will respond to Religare, etc.
Also the highest ideal of India, in a word, is (was?) probably LIBERATION (of the soul). Where as the Platonic ideal of Western man is not the liberation of man, but a call to the objective, good and just life. Of course this is mitigated by Judeo/Christian myths. The Christ Myth: Christ died for the Good of All, not for his personal liberation. So these ideals whether we are aware of them or not, certainly are going to effect the way people evaluate the guru and everything else.
India in the past 20 years has become much more Westernized. Yet, India's religious traditions, myths, and philosophical tradition(s) are, I think, more subtle, colorful, sprawling, and baroque than anywhere else on the planet. Culture holds us all, and insofar as that is so, the reaction of people who were born to India, (in particular those deeply tied to the guru tradition) familiar with the tales of the Ramayana and Mahabharata are likely to have a broader and more subtle view on what is appropriate for a guru, than a Lutheran raised in Oklahoma whose only access to India's vast philosophy, myths, and traditions may have been "Path of the Masters" by Julian Johnson
It is reasonable to assume the people of India have a deeper feel for their own traditions. Like the unique Indian head shake that seems to mean "yes, no, maybe". How the Beas' guru is viewed is in that head-shake somewhere. This seems to me largely how India views the comings and goings of her yogis, gurus, Saints, etc. Personally, I think India, her spirit, is very beautiful. What a pity if India gives way to McDonalds and Walmart.
Posted by: Jon Weiss | April 23, 2010 at 02:23 PM
In response to "Where did all the money come from":
If you look at the history of Ranbaxy
you will see that it started as a small company founded by Malvinder's grand-father, and carried forward by his father. It grew to become a big multi-national company when Brar (non family member) was CEO. The family members owned a significant fraction of Ranbaxy, which amounted to a lot of money.
Malvinder (and his brother perhaps) exited Ranbaxy, and sold their huge stake in Ranbaxy. That's where the money came from.
They invested this money in a family business, Religare, and appointed family members and close friends as executives in this business. After all, Ranbaxy was also started as a small family business by their grand father. They probably wanted to do this all over, this time on a larger scale, as they had much more capital.
Regarding "why only these relatives benefited from it, and not their other cousins". The fact that Gurpreet works for Religare might explain it, while other relatives might not be qualified/capable to hold such positions at the company. Maybe Gurkirat is also being groomed for a key position at the company once he is done with his education.
If I were starting a company, and some of my relatives were well qualified and trustworthy, I would happily hire them. There's a significant and unquantifiable advantage of "good will", in comparison with hiring an external candidate.
You ask "Is there a barter?"
Do you have a theory? Please share.
Also, Ranbaxy is not the parent company. I think the two are disconnected (my opinion, don't know for sure). Malvinder sold his stake in Ranbaxy, and used the money to invest in, and grow, Religare. That's where the money to buy new businesses came from.
Posted by: Tom | April 23, 2010 at 06:34 PM
@ Tom - - - Thank you for sharing the Ranbaxy history, I work in the financial sector in India. I've been studying the rise of Religare and other financial companies for a little longer than it took you to conclude that Religare was being financed by Malvinder Singh after he sold his stake in Ranbaxy.
I wrote - " The point to note is that Ranbaxy was in big debts at the time when Religare was founded. " Spend some time on the Internet, get your facts in line. On the 10th of June 2008, Japan's Daiichi Sankyo Co. bought Ranbaxy. Religare was founded in 2006. Study the growth trajectory of Religare during that period, at the time when Ranbaxy was in debt.
Do you want to know where I think that money was coming from ?
IMO, part of Religare was being funded by the RSSB Trust.
Like it or not, it is boardroom gossip that there are cross-holdings between Religare and the RSSB Trust. Do you think that this would bother an ordinary person ? Not the least ! Because it is a legal deal for any trust to invest in a public company. This happens to be a ' family ' company and Gurinder has full access to the RSSB Trust. But Gurinder also happens to be the leader of the RS spiritual sect, a GIHF for his millions of followers.
For the satsang-going, seva-doing, darshan-seeking initiates who understand the RS tenets in the right spirit, this integration may be a bit hard to digest.
For the weak-minded cultists, it may be easy to justify.
And, do tell me, how does a two billion dollar company manage a turnover of three million dollars in a quarter ? Ranbaxy is funding Religare today, but who funded it when Ranbaxy itself was in debt ? The answer to that may have a link to Religare's shareholding pattern.
Posted by: Arjun | April 23, 2010 at 09:01 PM
Jon, thanks for expounding.
Posted by: Arjun | April 23, 2010 at 09:16 PM
@ Tom --- Clarification : At the bottom of my comment I wrote ' Ranbaxy is funding Religare today... ' What I meant was ' The money from the Ranbaxy sale / Malvinder Singh is funding Religare today ' so read it that way.
Posted by: Arjun | April 23, 2010 at 11:05 PM
only for poor tAo
The infidels are thrashed and are ruined in wranglings.
There is darkness within the mind and body of an apostate. He has neither shelter nor palce of rest.
The filth of the apostate is not washed off, until he enshrines not affection for Guru's Word.
Posted by: HUNAR007 | April 24, 2010 at 01:38 AM
some interesting thoughts from jon, espectially on popper, its an amusing generalisation which may be be right or maybe not - but material wealth and its effects on the scruples of man - would seem to be a curse that is largely independent of culture - tho perhaps there are more moralistic conditioning in those brought up in the judaeo-christian or western world.
\interesting comments nevertheless.
Posted by: George | April 24, 2010 at 11:57 AM
who knows, the one thing is for certain, greed is greed, and you can paint it any which way you want, but its still the same ugly thing, whether committed by the sheyster or the guru.
Posted by: George | April 24, 2010 at 12:02 PM
"The infidels are thrashed and are ruined"
-- you appear much the same as a moslem extremist. take your stinking mentality and your rhetoric of religious fundamentalism and terrorism somehwere else far away from here. your kind is not welcome here, imo.
"There is darkness within the mind and body of an apostate. The filth of the apostate"
-- you're a religious nut and a moron, obviously.
"he enshrines not affection for Guru's Word."
-- you're no different than all the other stupid threatening fear mongering religious fundamentalists and extremists. how does it feel to be such a miserable jerk?
Posted by: tAo | April 24, 2010 at 12:26 PM
By uttering harsh words man come to grief. Hearken, O' my foolish ignorant soul !
Posted by: HUNAR007 | April 25, 2010 at 01:01 AM
GURBANI IS UNIVERSAL TRUTH .IT IS FOR ME YOU AND EVERY ONE ON THIS EARTH.
WE ARE WASTING SO MUCH ENERGY ON THESE fake controversies.As GURBANI SAYS:--
After reading and perusing the scholars and astrologers resort to controversies and quibbles.
::There is but One Lord. Spiritualism and materialism are the two ways be which the strifes multiply.
::Man reads the Vedas but but night and day picks up quarrrels.
Posted by: HUNAR007 | April 26, 2010 at 06:20 AM
GURBANI IS RUBBISH.
It is NOT for me, nor is it for "every one". It is only for religious crazies like HUNAR007.
Posted by: tAo | April 26, 2010 at 11:51 AM
CAN YOU TELL WHAT IS THE REALITY?
HOW ONE CAN OPEN HIS MIND A BIT ?
Posted by: HUNAR007 | April 28, 2010 at 01:41 AM
Now I'm just an on/off troll on this blog but...
The views expressed here tend to be pretty polarised. That is, either:
(a) the guru is GIHF and can do no wrong, or
(b) the guru is a money grubbing charlatan profiteering off the gullible masses.
Is there no grey area? Does it have to be one or the other?
Posted by: Bobo | April 28, 2010 at 02:35 AM
Bobo, good point. But I'm not saying the RSSB guru is one or the other. You've selected a few points on the "guru discussion scale" and concluded that these are the only two options. The guru, like all of us, is a complex human being who can't be encapsulated with a few sound bites. If you read all of the mentions of the guru on this blog -- there are lots of them -- you'll find that these cover a lot of ground, not just the extremes you cite.
Posted by: Brian Hines | April 28, 2010 at 10:36 AM
GURBANI THOUGHTS TO YOU IS TO CAST PEARLS BEFORE SWINE !
Posted by: HUNAR007 | April 29, 2010 at 05:06 AM
does anyone have any proof that rssb trust has invested in religare or ranbaxy....if they had invested shouldnt it have been reflected somewhere in the balance sheet and other documents, it would be great if someone comes up with a proof
Posted by: tk | April 29, 2010 at 08:28 AM
I use to enjoy reading the articles , now it is just becomming a typical tabloid media site.
Posted by: Gustav | April 29, 2010 at 06:50 PM
Gustav, "typical tabloid media site"? Huh?
SInce I write the articles/posts, I'm curious about this reference. Can you point me to other web sites or blogs that are like this one, and can be called "tabloid"? I enjoy looking at the National Enquirer when I'm in the grocery store checkout line, but I've never considered that this blog is anything like a typical tabloid. Definition:
What facts or opinions in my posts would you consider tabloid'ish? It would be more useful if you'd point to some specifics. I assume you don't like the Religare posts, since you commented on this post. What is inaccurate in them?
Posted by: Brian Hines | April 29, 2010 at 07:18 PM
TK asked the following:
does anyone have any proof that rssb trust has invested in religare or ranbaxy....if they had invested shouldnt it have been reflected somewhere in the balance sheet and other documents, it would be great if someone comes up with a proof
Was it stated somewhere that the trust money was used? I do not think trust money was used. The conflict is elsewhere.
With big $$$ ---generally there is (natural enough) suspicion. Conflict of interest, if nothing else. Brian's wife pointed this out --- the problem with dual relationships. A splendid example would be Woody Allen marrying Soon Yi Previn. Now, what is problematical about that? It was not Allen's genetic daughter, right? Likewise, the guru's dual relationship (Religare) is disturbing. Brian's wife was spot on.
But sometimes it is harder to SEE with money than with sex. So here is an example: What if the curtain were drawn back and the sangat saw Guru X surrounded by a bevy of scantily dressed, beautiful young women, yet not doing anything wrong. People would ask, what is he doing there in that situation? He is married, he is our guru! Further, if the Guru were to be discovered as a VIP heading up a profitable modeling agency?
When one begins to doubt the pure intentions of the Guru, the disciple is remanded to the tale of the Guru who told disciples to construct and tear down a platform many times. This worn-out tale can either be considered (a) part of the cult's indoctrination portfolio or (b) a story expressing the Asian tradition of unconditional faith in Guru---regardless of outward behavior. (Very risky in any age, IMO, but particularly dangerous in this one.)
Posted by: Jon Weiss | April 30, 2010 at 12:39 PM
yes arjun mentioned that rssb trust money is being used in religare and there are cross holdings between religare and rssb trust and also that ranbaxy was funded by rssb trust when it was in huge debts....arjun can you get your facts right with some evidence supporting it
Posted by: tk | May 01, 2010 at 04:32 AM
Nice to read all the mail about Baba Gurinder Singh. I shall love to read more about if any more shares he has of Religare or any other company gifted by his sons.
To me it looks like a gift from son to his father. A paltry sum has been gifted by a frugal son.
with love to all,
Posted by: rakesh bhasin | May 01, 2010 at 10:40 AM
Guru is not related to Religare
Nephews and sons hold shares there
No such 'dual' relationship exists apart from in these American stocks and shares afficionado's minds.
Some these fiasco fables are created by worn out intellects looking for sensationalism, thats it, nothing more than a feeble fable stick to beat their drum of self dissatisfied lack in their own disillusioned psyche.
Posted by: thumbin dacookie jar | May 01, 2010 at 12:46 PM
@ tk - I'm an investment banker based in India and I may have closer aides in the financial sector than you do. I have known of these RSSB-Religare dealings long before a dissatisfied bunch of Religare employees started finding out about the mysterious figure who was the backstage-operator of this company and started sending emails to RS followers. What I have deduced over the last four years is what I have stated on this blog.
I have my facts right and my opinions are based on them. Go find someone in a mid to high level position at Religare to give you more information - they have one of the highest employee turnover rate in the Indian corporate sector. Someone will be glad to give you their story.
Posted by: Arjun | May 01, 2010 at 08:36 PM
Hello to all.
Even though I am a Radha Soami believer, I wonder why Babaji and his family are involved in large monetary dealings of this kind. Something is not right here. I find it difficult to accept this. I see that Mr. Jaickismin Balani is also on the board of directors. He was Babaji's ex-boss, the gentleman who Babaji worked for in Spain. This whole thing is sad and unbelievable.
Posted by: Sandhu | May 01, 2010 at 11:18 PM
Read your post just now.
I was wondering about haq-halal ki kamayee (honestly earned bread) -- which those in the Satsangs make a big fuzz about.
As a journalist, I used to work only about three hours a day. Satsangis used to call me scumbag.
Now I wonder what would they call their Guru who rakes in millions without working.
Posted by: Deepak Kamat | May 02, 2010 at 07:50 PM
@brian - its been a few years since I last visited your blog to see if you had anything new and fresh to say, but sadly its the same old intellectual bucket banging and rssb mud slinging.
Its obvious to anyone with a real hunger for developing a quiet mind, that the energy you and your same old tucson tao et al crew - that you are not investing the minimum time per day in rooting yourself within yourself.
Its always been easier to bluster and bloggerise than it is to still the mind and PRACTICE the teachings.
Also, you make no reference to personal enquiry within rssb about this matter, or heaven forbid - approach Master and enquire his opinion or comment on the matter.
When you were de listed as a speaker for rssb - as your talks were academic and likely as tiresome as your self serving posts -your nose was put out of joint. This blow to your ego fueled your efforts to create your own following of yes-men and women. All happier gabbing about spirituality rather than quietly trying to live it.
I'm sure your ego is still as big as big as you on several occasions have admitted it to be, and your tiresome themes will live on for the next couple of years. Good luck talking about the car you should be driving.
Posted by: Brad | May 03, 2010 at 02:30 AM
I think mud slinging is useful, 'cos sometimes the mud sticks.
Posted by: Bobo | May 03, 2010 at 02:55 AM
Brad, you're wrong about the reason I was "fired" from being a satsang speaker. As I wrote in this post, the reason given by the RSSB representative was that this blog was making people uncomfortable. That's a fact. See:
Well, my Meister Eckhart fantasy has been fulfilled. I’ve been fired from giving talks (known as “satsangs”) at meetings of my spiritual group because my Church of the Churchless writings have been too heretical.
Yesterday our local secretary informed me that he had been told by a regional representative, Vince Savarese, that my blogging about Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) had caused a lot of people to be uncomfortable. In New York. In India. All around the RSSB world.
Naturally I blurted out “Wow, that’s great! People are reading my blog!” It didn’t bother me to hear that I’ve been making some people uncomfortable. I regularly hear from others that they appreciate my posts, so it all evens out. Yin and yang. Like and dislike. Attraction and repulsion. That’s the way of the world.
Regardless, the RSSB powers that be don’t want me to be a speaker anymore. I said, “That’s fine. Now the folks at the Radhasoami studies discussion group who have been taking bets that I wouldn’t last as a speaker beyond mid-2006 will feel vindicated.”
Interestingly, about ten days ago I’d been asked to write another article by an editor of the official RSSB magazine, “Spiritual Link.” She emailed me, “I so enjoy reading what you write on your blog. It is that kind of energy that I’d like to see in an article.” So what one hand chastiseth, another hand praiseth.
Posted by: Brian Hines | May 03, 2010 at 08:11 AM
RSSB is not the hot gurudom that it once was.
Today, the most popular Gurus in India are somebody like sri Sri Ravishankar, Baba Ramdev et al (who are practical rather than give the old-guilt inducing morality).
I see institutions like RSSB as collapsing institutions. They are the older versions of Indian spirituality.
Let it die a natural death.
Posted by: Deepak Kamat | May 03, 2010 at 09:49 AM
Sri Ravishankar and these others are same as going to a talk by Deepak Chopra, similar self help, bettering the world, psychoanalytical improve your external conditions mumbo jumbo that one gets, similar to the mumbo jumbo on here.
Posted by: hukai | May 03, 2010 at 10:01 AM
So Brian you have written to Baba Gurinder Singh directly and inquired from him where you stand in relation to your personal spiritual progress, since you are no longer required as a recognised speaker from any RS platform?
and you have also inquired directly whether RSSB funds have been usurped into any of these private family share transactions, or any of these financial associations with Religare or Ranbaxy?
Posted by: hukai | May 03, 2010 at 10:10 AM
you are so utterly self-assured and presumptious about others that look like a fool.
Here are some of your absurd statements:
"since I last visited your blog to see if you had anything new and fresh to say, but sadly its the same old intellectual bucket banging and rssb mud slinging."
-- you sound very much like another narrow-minded anti-intellect, anti-reason, anti-science RS fundamentalist (like Ashy). and in case you don't get it, there is some troublesome financial scandal and hypocrisy brewing around the upper eschalon of the RSSB and the guru's family. does it bother you that some of us find that corrupt? does it bother you that not everyone is a brainwashed little cult twerp like you?
"Its obvious to anyone with a real hunger for developing a quiet mind, [...] that you are not investing the minimum time per day in rooting yourself within yourself."
-- how do you know how much time i or others spend "investing" in meditation?? you simply don't know. you don't even have one iota of knowledge or understanding about my spiritual station or my spiritual sadhana (practice).
"easier to bluster and bloggerise than it is to still the mind and PRACTICE the teachings."
-- how do you know whether others are not practicising, or what their state of mind is?? it is YOU who is all "bluster" and presumption.
"you [Brian] make no reference to personal enquiry within rssb about this matter, or heaven forbid - approach Master and enquire his opinion or comment on the matter."
-- who gives a shit what the opinion of your "Master" is. i don't. the facts are the facts. you got some problem handling the facts?? it appears likely that you're in denial.
"[Brian] your talks were academic and likely as tiresome as your self serving posts"
-- you have something against being academic or academia?? or are you just a dumb-ass high-school dropout?? you seem that way.
"This blow to your ego fueled your efforts to create your own following of yes-men and women."
-- NO man, the people who comment on this blog are not "yes-men" at all. i think they would find you rather insulting. and fyi, i don't suck up to anyone, not even to your phoney RS master and his feudalistic slave colony. and its RS goons like YOU who are the real guru-cult "yes-men".
"All happier gabbing about spirituality rather than quietly trying to live it."
-- I have 'lived' more years of profound spirituality and mysticism than the years you have been alive, i dare say. you don't know anything about me.
"[Brian] I'm sure your ego is still as big [...] and your tiresome themes will live on for the next couple of years."
-- in order to make that statement, by necessity YOUR ego has to be even BIGGER, and more stupid, and more "tiresome".
LOL!... in fact, you're a f-ing joke, fat-headed Brad-y boy.
Better luck trolling at the next blog.
Posted by: tAo | May 03, 2010 at 10:16 PM
"you have written to Baba Gurinder Singh directly and inquired from him where you stand in relation to your personal spiritual progress"
-- what does that cultic pseudo-guru know about anything, much less somone's "personal spiritual progress"??
what a friggin hokey jokey you are, Hukai.
Posted by: tAo | May 03, 2010 at 10:26 PM
Posted by: Adrian: Check this link. | May 04, 2010 at 03:32 PM
dear Mr.ABC(I don't know ur Name",
I have read ur blog dated 11Apr 2010.
First of all Believe in Honesty, Believe in Truth, in Life, In Nature and In God!!
See first of all check your experiences of Life, especially the bad ones like your mother father divorced and others too where people ditch each other for there benefits or may be some kind of other problems.
See you have experienced not a life which you desire!
your desire was: a kind of life where no one break any trust of any one, Everybody loves everybody kind of
Why i m writing all this because your bad experiences has CHANGED YOUR VISION, the way of percepting the Things especially People!
Now come to the point:
First of All The Current Guru :Babaji Gurinder Singh ji, has NEVER SAID that he is God!
his teaching(I m not sure wheather you have listen his lectures or not) where he says that the God is Word/Shabad etc. Guru is Medium who helps you to reach to your final destination :to GOD. So don't Considered that God is making money and his family too.
And if the Issue is that they are making Money and not giving it to the charity then you are right here.
Do you know even that how much they are helping people here in India?
there money goes in construction, running orgainisation, helping people, still the Hospital is going on , etc
I want to know what's your Point is:
He is making money?
He is not God??
If any of the scandel of money is going on (definately some people are involved)
But the Guru's Purpose is to spread the spirituality, the Truth, the honesty, the life
Try to listen his teachings and trust on life, CHANGE YOUR PERCEPTION!!
and if have have PERSONALLY experienced the issue of money then pls write to me in detail. not that buddy is saying this or that guy has experinced this. Your experince With the GURU??
We will ckeck it out.
Posted by: Ritu | May 05, 2010 at 07:23 AM
"First of all Believe in Honesty, Believe in Truth, in Life, In Nature and In God!!"
"But the Guru's Purpose is to spread the spirituality, the Truth, the honesty, the life"
--Are you saying the purpose is to spread the "belief" in spirituality, truth, honesty and life? I wonder if it is possible to spread a belief in dishonesty?
--Did someone train you to think this way?
Thanks for a reply,
Posted by: Roger | May 05, 2010 at 07:46 AM
it seems that you do not understand and realize that the issue here is about "Honesty, Believe in Truth, in Life, In Nature".
why should anyone have to or be told to "Believe In God", as you say???
believing or not believing in God is an individual matter. belief in god is NOT required in order for one to seek the truth, to live and appreciate life, and to be in harmony with nature. you are trying to impose your belief in god, onto others. thats not a good way to start off here.
"check your experiences of Life, especially the bad ones like your mother father divorced and others too where people ditch each other for there benefits or may be some kind of other problems."
-- i didn't have any of those problems or issues, and, that sort of thing has nothing to do with the RSSB guru's family financial scandal.
"your desire was: a kind of life where no one break any trust of any one, Everybody loves everybody"
-- that was not my desire, or my illusions, so you are wrong about that.
"your bad experiences has CHANGED YOUR VISION, the way of percepting the Things especially People!"
-- what "bad experiences"?? i think you are assuming things that are not yours to assume. people's perception of this is chaging all the time due to all sorts of factors. that has nothing to do with the facts about the RSSB guru and Religare.
"First of All The Current Guru: Babaji Gurinder Singh ji, has NEVER SAID that he is God!"
-- it is implied by the fact that he is worshipped as the shabd incarnate. it is also impled by the fact that he goes along with that widespread belief, and he does not do anything to change it. he is guiotly by omission.
"his teaching(I m not sure wheather you have listen his lectures or not) where he says that the God is Word/Shabad etc."
-- yes, thats is my point. it is taught that "the shabd is God", and that "the master is the incarnation or the embodiment of the shabd". so that makes the master equal to God. this is obvious, but believers such as yourself do not want to admit this. and the RS master does noting to dispell this belief.
"Guru is Medium who helps you to reach to your final destination: to GOD."
-- that is a basically a religious belief.
"So don't Considered that God is making money and his family too."
-- why not?? the master (who is considered to be God incarnate) and his family ARE indeed making money. so you are wrong.
"And if the Issue is that they are making Money and not giving it to the charity then you are right here."
-- they are making money. i don't know what they give to charity, that remains to be seen. i doubt that they give very much. they feel entitled to live as wealty individuals. and RSSB is a feudalistic structured cult and society. and the master is the king, and his family and his inner circle are the overlords.
"Do you know even that how much they are helping people here in India? there money goes in construction, running orgainisation, helping people, still the Hospital is going on , etc"
-- they, the master and his family are contributing little or nothing. all that stuff is paid for by the donations coming from satsangis, from the sangat.
"I want to know what's your Point is: He is making money? or He is not God??"
-- both. HE (and his family) ARE making money, a great deal of money (relitively speaking) -and- HE is regarded as the same as the shabd incarnate or "God". so its both.
"the Guru's Purpose is to spread the spirituality, the Truth, the honesty, the life"
-- that may be his purpose, but he isn't necessarily doing that. just because he is the leader of RS, that doesn't automatically make him virtuous and wise.
"Try to listen his teachings and trust on life, CHANGE YOUR PERCEPTION!!"
-- i don't care about his so-called teachings. i happen think he is a fraud. and i have good reason to think that, and so i don't need to "change my perception".
"and if [you] have PERSONALLY experienced the issue of money then pls write to me in detail."
-- the financial data and information is already publicly available. you are just ignorant of the facts, or in denial.
"Your experince With the GURU??"
-- Brian has seen him, and so have i, and so have others. so what?
"We will ckeck it out."
-- who are YOU to "check" anything out?? as if you are some sort of authority?? give me a break. and all the pertinent information is already out there. you are just not open to looking at the real facts. you want to remain stuck in your illusion and fantasy.
Posted by: tAo | May 05, 2010 at 04:04 PM
Tara, I think you may make even more sense after three glasses of wine than you do otherwise. Which implies...you should drink more! Then do more interfacing on the Internets.
Posted by: Brian Hines | May 08, 2010 at 05:53 PM
well i'm mighty proud of you Tara. you done real good. so good, that you've earned your own place in the Churchless Hall of Fame (or is it infamy?), right here alongside tucson and meself, tAo.
so let us raise all our glasses to toast Tara, a gal much like the character that Uma Thurman played in Kill Bill Vol. 2, by the name of 'Black Mamba'... cause she kicks ass. and give that lady another drink.
i'm rather glad to see that there is now someone here to carry on after tucson and i finally disappear like the naguals and sages Don Juan and Lao Tzu... into the vast mysterous mountains of the great unknown.
Posted by: tAo | May 08, 2010 at 09:35 PM
Three cheers to Tara...one of the refreshing voices amidst a cacophony of mumbo jumbo.
Posted by: tucson | May 09, 2010 at 12:02 AM
This is churchless blog. You discuss about your own ideology and own guru or whatsoever and don't spit any wrong words against satsang and its gurus. You don't have any moral right.
Posted by: Anirudh Kumar Satsangi | May 12, 2010 at 12:26 AM