RSSB's ties to Religare mix money and spirituality

As shown in my previous post, there's an intimate relationship between Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), a religious/mystical organization headquartered in India, and Religare -- a large global financial services group.

The current RSSB guru is Gurinder Singh Dhillon. His sons, though only 26 and 20 years old, are among the 400 richest Indians owing to millions of Religare shares having been transferred to them at a very low cost via insider trading deals.

And the guru himself has acquired about half a million dollars worth of Religare shares in a similar fashion. (For details on all this, read "Religare's money connections with the Radha Soami guru.")

When I first received an email from somebody who was knowledgeable about the RSSB - Religare relationship, my first reaction was there's nothing wrong with making money. 

I still feel that way.

However, the more I learned about the ties that bind RSSB and Religare, the more I was bothered by how the "vibe" of the spiritual organization I was an active member of for over thirty-five years has changed. 

The guru who initiated me back in 1971 was Charan Singh. My recollection is that his family owned quite a bit of farm land in the Punjab, and this is how he and various relatives supported themselves.

Back then it appeared to us Western disciples that business dealings and spiritual pursuits were kept entirely separate in the Radha Soami Satsang Beas organization. If there were ties between members of the group becoming rich, and becoming godly, this wasn't obvious. The emphasis was on "selfless service," not self-aggrandizement.

Times have changed. I've been told that almost all members of the board of directors of Religare are Radha Soami Satsang Beas initiates, or "satsangis."

Also, that the RSSB guru literally runs the company -- he makes all the important decisions and spends a considerable amount of time driving the business. The children of high-ranking satsangis, along with family members and friends of the guru, work for Religare.

All Religare establishments reportedly are strictly vegetarian, in accord with one of the rules for RSSB initiates. No employee, whether a member of RSSB or not, is permitted to bring any sort of non-vegetarian food inside the gates of the buildings. So no pepperoni pizza delivery for a guy or gal working late on company business.

Charitable activities of RSSB reportedly have been cut back considerably, with the guru being quoted as saying, "We are a spiritual organization, not a charitable one." This strikes some initiates as hypocritical, given how busily the guru and those close to him are acquiring wealth through RSSB connections.

Apparently now the only organized RSSB charitable activity for the poor is the Beas hospital that was built many years ago, when Charan Singh was the guru. The annual "eye camps" that provided free medical care for cataracts and other problems have been discontinued. (Another guru's "dera" offers them, though.)

Sunil Godhwani, Religare's Chairman and Managing Director, is a Radha Soami Satsang Beas follower and the guru's closest aide. Malvinder and Shivinder Mohan Singh, the brothers (nephews of the guru) who founded Religare and transferred millions of shares in the company to the guru's sons also are RSSB initiates.

I have some personal experience with insider transactions, since my father was a co-founder of a company -- Systems and Computer Technology Corporation -- back in the 1980's or thereabouts. (My mother divorced my father when I was very young and I never had any contact with him until I was in my thirties, so I'm sort of vague on details.)

Feeling guilty over how he had ignored one of his sons, my father transferred several thousand shares in the company to me. As a founder, he'd gotten them dirt cheap. And over the years, as I followed the company's fortunes, I saw how frequently shares were traded back and forth in insider deals.

In general, this is completely legal. Also, common.

However, there's something strange about the sons of a guru, who is considered by disciples to be "God in human form" and master of their spiritual destiny, becoming some of the richest people in India after being gifted millions of shares in Religare without ever having worked for the company.

(Gurpreet, the oldest son, is a director of Religare's British affiliate; I've been told that Gurkirat, the youngest son who is still in college, has no connection with the company.)

My wife worked as a psychotherapist in private practice for quite a few years. Through her I learned about the issue of "dual relationships." 

Dual relationships exist whenever a therapist interacts with a client in any capacity beyond the one role as therapist, for example, also being their client’s teacher, consultant, business partner, or sexual partner. If you perform a role other than therapist for your client, it may introduce desires and goals that are yours rather than the client’s and can risk the possibility that you will place your needs above theirs. Maintaining unselfish judgment is critical to your role as an effective, professional therapist.

If this is true of someone who merely functions as a guide to living a more satisfying worldly life, it sure seems that a guru who is viewed by his clients/initiates as being the master of their spiritual life (including an afterlife) needs to be even more careful about mixing up money with a therapeutic relationship.

Here's another view of dual relationships: 

Dual relationships between psychotherapists and their clients/patients are in the most general sense considered inappropriate or unethical.  In nearly all situations a dual relationship involves a risk that treatment may become biased or influenced by a non-treatment relationship between the professional and consumer.

During the more than three decades I was involved with Radha Soami Satsang Beas, I frequently observed first-hand the astounding devotion initiates, which naturally included me, had toward the guru.

I've seen destitute Indians happily placing a rupee (23 cents) or two into a "seva" (donation) container. I've seen initiates working tirelessly without pay for hours, days, and weeks in a spirit of service to the guru. I've seen disciples jump at the chance to do the most dirty or difficult volunteer work if this would further a project ordered by the guru.

It's well known that when people are in different positions of power (such as boss/employee or teacher/student), different interpersonal dynamics come into play. The lower-ranking person really isn't "free" in the usual sense of the word. 

This is why psychotherapists are so concerned about the dangers of dual relationships. Power imbalances can easily result in people being taken advantage of, even when they appear -- and may even feel themselves -- to be acting voluntarily.

What I've learned about the dealings between Radha Soami Satsang Beas and Religare doesn't feel right to me.

It definitely goes against the grain of what I used to enjoy about being a member of RSSB: the focus on meditation, mysticism, charitable giving, and service to a spiritual community where everybody did their share, and nobody (seemingly) tried to get more than their share.

That said, maybe I'm old-fashioned.

Maybe I don't understand how modern-day gurus and their relatives can engage in insider trading deals with disciples while still remaining true to their philosophical principles. Maybe I'm missing the benefit to RSSB of having an inner circle derive large financial benefits that aren't available to other initiates.

All I know is that philosophically and ethically, there are reasons for concern here. This morning I dug out a couple of RSSB books that I've got stored away in our garage. 

I wanted to remind myself what was said in "Honest Living," one of the core Radha Soami Satsang Beas publications, about materialism.

Since it is a natural tendency of all human beings to strive for happiness and to improve their situation in life, the success of our spiritual journey depends on what we put first, our spiritual or material goals.

...The danger lies in making material goals our priority. We are then equating riches with happiness and we immediately become vulnerable to compromising those very principles established to safeguard us.

Now, everybody has to support themselves in some way. The RSSB teachings certainly don't discourage initiates from trying to make money.

However, it strikes me as discordant when the RSSB guru, his family, and high-ranking members of the RSSB organization are so deeply involved in the business of Religare. Should a religious group whose aim is release of the soul from the bonds of worldly attachment be so heavily focused on materialistic corporate goals?

It's also important to keep in mind that relationships between people in a guru's family can be quite different from the usual sorts of familial ties.

I can understand why at first glance my arguments above about "dual relationships" would be discounted -- given that the founders of Religare who gifted shares of the company to the guru's sons (and Gurinder Singh himself) are related to the guru. What's wrong with family members giving gifts to each other, and going into business with each other?

Usually, nothing.

But being related to a guru who is considered to be God in human form is a much different deal than being related to an everyday Homo sapiens. This really often is a dual relationship in the classic sense, because the guru functions both as an infallible spiritual guide and a relative: father, grandfather, uncle, son, or whatever.

In Legacy of Love, a RSSB biography of Charan Singh, Gurinder Singh's predecessor (and uncle), this special relationship of a guru with devoted family members is described:

Sardar Harbans Singh, Marharaj Ji's [Charan Singh's] father, was the third son of Great Master. More than anything else, he was remembered for his absolute obedience to Great Master. When he was told by him to send his boys -- Maharaj Ji and Shoti -- to Dera for their education, he never questioned Great Master's wish.

He handed them over so fully into Great Master's trust that for many years the boys had no idea he was their father and thought of him as an uncle. His complete faith first in Great Master, and later, in his son, needs to be seen in the context of the practical difficulties those very close to a Master face in accepting his divine power and role.

For someone to accept a close relation or friend as the Master, he or she has to be able to relinquish all self-interest in the relationship. Since, as Maharaj Ji so often pointed out, most of these relationships are based on some level of self-interest, it is a rare person who can make such a sacrifice. It is a gift of grace, Maharaj Ji would say, to recognize a saint.

Fascinating.

First Sardar Harbans Singh gave all his obedience to his father, who also was his spiritual guru. Then, when Charan Singh became the guru, Sardar Singh transferred his "complete faith" to his own son.

This is difficult to understand for those, like me, who aren't steeped in Indian culture. I, along with my psychotherapist wife, can't believe that any human being is capable of rising above any form of self-interest -- and is worthy of unconditional obedience and trust.

Yet this is how a "perfect guru" is viewed by ardent disciples, including members of his own family. As the saying goes, if the guru says jump, the only question for them is how high?

This offers a different perspective on financial dealings among and between initiates of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. When the guru is involved in these dealings, they take on a deeply spiritual perspective since Gurinder Singh is considered to be (1) infallible and (2) utterly unself-interested.

Well, as I often say, maybe. But that's highly unlikely.

So when profound religious faith in a guru is intertwined with business transactions that involve him, there's a strong possibility of spirituality becoming strangely mixed up with material concerns and desires.

Comments

[david lane]

very nicely stated..... even understated.

The fact is that Nimi, Charan's daughter, was married to the Parvinder Singh (who I once wrongly predicted would be Charan's successor.... maybe I was closer than I thought? jk), who was the one you created this vast wealth in the first place.

Therefore, the close connection started with Charan's son-in-law.

But there is something about Gurinder's tenure that makes one stop and wonder what R.S. Beas is trying to achieve.....

In any case, I like your reasonable approach here.

[Dogribb]

RSSB actions and your reports have helped me thorougly divorce myself from it's theology.Thanks Brian... I think I'll move to the front Pew in The Church of the Churchless.

[tucson]

I agree with Blogger Brian. I would like to reiterate my response to his previous post on this issue, not that this statement is particularly profound except in my own mind...

It certainly appears incongruous, unseemly and suspicious that the supposed embodiment of transcendent perfection as taught by the Sant Mat teachings of RSSB, who has access to planes of consciousness so sublime that this physical universe appears as a small speck of filth by comparison, would be taking advantage of connections from within the RSSB organization to accumulate the wealth of a world decried and disparaged in the RSSB literature and satsangs.

[Dogribb]

Yes really Dave .Just what does land and wealth have to do with returning souls to their celestial abode ?

[Dogribb]

Dang only 4 comments and none from the RSSB faithful..interesting

[tucson]

Dogribb makes an interesting observation...no comments refuting or defending the RSSB hierarchy's financial dealings.

Things run in cycles on blogs and sometimes certain people just aren't around, but the reason may simply be that this looks pretty bad from the perspective of the teachings and is difficult to rationalize. Why is a perfect Param Sant Sat Guru sent from the highest heaven to escort souls back to God involved with all these billion rupee business dealings?

Is there a devotee/satsangi out there who is comfortable with this? Why?

I'm not sure how I would have reacted back in the '70's-'80's when I was a true believer in Sant Mat, but I think it would have bothered me. I knew that Charan Singh's family were well to do land owners but I didn't really think about it much. It seemed normal and OK to me at the time. I was happy that Charan really didn't need support from the sangat and gave the appearance at least of being financially independent. His brother ran the farm while he ran the dera and did his guru thing.

But, this takes it all to a new level. RSSB has grown to be a very large and complex organization with property ownership all over the world as well as India. We're talking big money here and now guru Gurinder is apparantly overseeing separate large investment operations in addition to RSSB and other family business and farming interests.

He seems to be more of a business mogul than savior of lost souls. When does he get the time to check all his millions of follower's sinchit karmas and fine tune them so that sword thrusts become pin pricks?

I know! It must be that the Lord works in mysterious ways. Now I feel much better.

[tAo]

Good point tucson.

Why does guru Gurinder need to get involved or be involved in any sort of money dealings? All of his basic needs are entirely taken care of by RS for life. So he has no need of money, much less the acquiring (either directly or indirectly) of excessive wealth.

Why is he involved to any degree in the overseeing of a company and its business and financial dealings?

Isn't being the executive head and the spiritual master of RSSB as well as a mystic guru to all of his thousands of initiated disciples a very serious full-time job?

How can anyone be so foolish as to believe that this fellow Gurinder is anything other than a very mundane, materialistic and worldly individual.

But I've got some rather unfortunate news for Gurinder and his ilk...

The Apocalypse (the unveiling) of this era is upon us. In fact, it has already begun. And this time... its going to be one hell of a MAHA-MAHA-Apocalypse.

So Gurinder's materialism and his uhhh not so secret desire for money, and his corruption and pretentious fakery and deceipt is only going to fan the fires under his charlatan's ass even more so.

It's going to be rather FUN! watching all these fraudulent so-called spiritual masters and holy scheisters and religious guru con-men roast and BURN!!!

It will be as a fragrant incense to those who value Truth above all else.

I can even smell it coming...

[Blogger Brian]

tucson and tAo, good observations. I'll add some further thoughts of my own.

I've been thinking about how unsettling it would be to know that a major corporation was controlled by a board and leadership made up entirely (or almost entirely) of believers in a single religion.

And that the corporation was being managed in accord with the tenets of that religion, such as requiring employees to only eat vegetarian food at the workplace.

If I were a prospective customer or client, that would turn me off. I love Apple products. But if I knew that Apple was being run by Christian fundamentalists, that would make a difference in how I viewed the company. I'd be less willing to want to support a religious worldview that I didn't agree with.

Most large corporations do their best to avoid being identified in this fashion, since they're in the business of making money, not promoting a religion or philosophy.

Individuals within the company might be outspoken Christians, Buddhists, or whatever, but there would be an effort to keep management of the company itself as secular as possible -- for P.R., image, and bottom-line reasons.

So it'd be interesting to know how the Religare leadership looks upon the company's close ties with RSSB. If I was on the board (and not associated with RSSB), I'd be concerned about how ardent devotion to a particular form of spirituality could influence Religare's success as a financial services corporation.

When I mentioned this issue to my wife, she said, "Lots of Christians in this country would like a company to be dominated by Christian true believers." Probably true.

But India is a more religiously diverse country than the United States. And the world, even more so. So I still think that large corporations are wise to keep religion and money-making separate.

[Dogribb]

Tao and Tucson you express what I was pointing towards...thank you.I for one find the silence of the Faithful refreshing.

[Tara - Many Splits]

In RS-Sant Mat, the Guru is the embodiment of the teachings, a living example of the doctrine - the enlightened ' GIHF ' who accompanies initiates on an inner spiritual journey. That said, it would be hard to believe that ' God ' is partial and is concerned about the profits of only one company. It would be more difficult to acknowledge that ' God ' may have something to hide.

What comes across strange is that they do not want people to know that they are the co-owners of Religare, else why aren't Gurpreet and Gurkirat on the Religare India website ? Surely, any other twenty percent stakeholder would like to be on his own website ! Why hide behind your achievements, if there is a clear road-map to show how you got there !

Spirituality aside, the ' worldly life ' of the Guru and his family is shrouded in mystery. I don't understand the facade of austerity or the need to preach detachment.

[Tara - Many Splits]

Most of the ' open-minded ' RS initiates that I have spoken with are dumbstruck. Unlike ' spiritual planes ' some things are verifiable !

Yes, where are have all the RS defenders gone ? Into deeper meditation ?

[Tara - Many Splits]

As we can clearly see, this spirituality-bucks-and-business cocktail has been stirred up by the present guru - G.S. Dhillon.

In the days of Charan Singh, his two sons had nothing to do with the fortunes of their sister and brother-in-law's company - Ranbaxy. It seems like Charan never took advantage of the relationships within his immediate family, he was busy looking into the affairs of RSSB and the politics within the organization. I have great respect for the manner in which Charan conducted himself in this regard.

[Hukm Chelo]

Tara conniver who were you initiated by, if at all, Charan or Gurinder?

[Dogribb]

Charan's integrety aside.The balance sheets of RSSB are far more easily accessed and audited than the census of Sach Kand

[tAo]

hukm Chelo...

do tell, who were YOU initiated by? you should state the foundation on which YOU stand, before you go doubting and others. i suspect that you are nothing but a rank poseur who likes to cast little stones at others without having any substance or credibility of your own. how's it feel to be the village idiot?

but not to worry though mr ashy heller, the now closely impending apocalypse will make it quite sure that you anbd your ilk get exactly whats coming to you... as you and all of your cherished beliefs and holier-than-thou dogma are reduced to ashes and then obliterated... mr ashy heller. hah hah hah!!!

[Dogribb]

What does it matter if anyone was/is initiated or not ? It's not like you have anything will get anything or will be taking it anywhere...LOL Being Initiated only suggests a certain bias of thought feeling and identification.

[Undecided]

I am sad for confused satsangis who can't understand what this all means and how to integrate it with the tenets of their faith. The share transactions have the potential to generate doubts far surpassing the usual level of doubt satsangis live with. The implications of losing one's faith cover a wide spectrum from shrugging shoulders to fear of transmigration and hell. For many this is a real problem and nothing to ridicule. For members of my family the path is a constant companion in good times and bad. A source of strength and safety. Gurus have tremendous responsibility.

But I must say, facts on the table is always better than head in the sand.

So to get into what the share transactions mean with regards to the validity of the path I would like to ask a few questions to believers and unbelievers.

1. The share transactions are obviously troublesome. Is it the transactions per se or the value they represent?

2. Are the reasons for the transactions known? I can think of reasons why this can
happen. For example, private equity investments for the sons made many years ago, maybe at their birth. Like people who buy shares of companies for their children. If this is the case, it would be an investment of a likely substantial principal amount which has panned out extraordinarily well. And not impossible considering India's economic growth for many years. So are the reasons known?

3. I notice that the value of the shares transferred to the guru is comparatively small. How do you view that?

4. To believers: How does all this look to you?

Please add anything you would like to add. Thank you.

I read that the eye camps are not done anymore. Is this true? I would like to know more about this and the reasons.

[Brian Hines]

Undecided, if you have a fast Internet connection, you can examine the Religare prospectus for yourself:
http://www.sebi.gov.in/dp/reldraft.pdf

On pp. 25-28 you can see that the shares were transferred to the guru's sons in June 2006, not many years ago, as you theorized, and certainly not at their birth.

You ask what is troublesome about this issue. I think it needs to be viewed in its entirety, not piecemeal.

There is the transfer of shares to the sons by RSSB initiates, who also are related to the guru. There is the active involvement of the guru in the business of Religare. There is the domination (which probably extends to 100%) of the board of Religare by RSSB initiates who are higher-ups in the RSSB organization. There is the running of Religare according to RSSB principles, such as vegetarianism.

In short, the spiritual side of RSSB now is intimately connected with a large profit-seeking corporation. People have to decide for themselves what this means to them. That's about all I can say, in addition to what I've already said.

[Dogribb]

Hopefully what they make of it is the obvious.

[Dogribb]

May I suggest we refer to this as Religate ?

[tucson]

Undecided made this point above which I think is significant:

"The implications of losing one's faith cover a wide spectrum from shrugging shoulders to fear of transmigration and hell. For many this is a real problem and nothing to ridicule. For members of my family the path is a constant companion in good times and bad. A source of strength and safety. Gurus have tremendous responsibility."

--This is the crux of the matter. It is morally/ethically reprehensible to present yourself as some sort of god with supernatural powers who people depend on for their security, upon whom they base their lives, when in fact you are nothing of the kind. This makes Bernie Madoff, the ponzi scheme financier, seem like a small time petty thief by comparison. But because there is no way to prove Gurinder Singh is not a Perfect Master he will never go to jail for his con artistry and theft of people's faith. This is a pretty slick scam that works time and again especially in the Indian culture where guru worship is so widespread and deeply ingrained. It's not that people are stupid, it's part of their culture. What a brazen cynic a false guru is.

Undecided then says, "But I must say, facts on the table is always better than head in the sand."

--Usually, yes. But some people snap when disillusioned. Their lives are turned upside down and they feel lost. Some will lose their minds. At least when caught up in the illusion they feel secure and are on the right course. They feel their boat has a captain who knows the uncharted waters of life. In a way, this a nice thing to have...peace of mind that you are taken care of throughout life. Regardless of what happens, you believe it is in your best interest..Guru's Grace.

So, if Gurinder Singh is indeed a phoney, and knows it, using this position as Savior for self-aggrandizement, then he is a scumbag of the highest order...a param scumbag.

My sympathies to those who once believed and now realize the truth.

[Arjun]

Chanced upon this site, very good post Mr. Brian ! You have made good points, kudos to you, I like your rational disposition. It is guys like the one who has commented above ( Aha the RS Fundamentalist ) who I find most dangerous in any kind of organized religion. Maybe he cannot handle this post and like Mr. Tucson said ' some will lose their mind ' - befittingly conjures what has happened to Aha the RS Fundamentalist !

[Aha 'the RS Fundamentalist']

Keep it up Arjun you well on the way to becoming an enlightened 'free thinker'. You may even crack it this life time if you try hard enough. Just like some these enlightened folks over here.

[Dogribb]

Brian will no doubt keep us posted on Dera Damage control if this goes viral.Yes certainly a blow to the Faithful.My irreverance aside I can identify with what a blow this might be.they have my simpathy

[Dogribb]

Tara are you reporting what is happening in the Sikh community abroad or in India ? I only have an ear in the Western ojne and am straining to hear something.so far silence.

[Captain Rathore]

-- -- -- -- -- so dark the con of man.

[Dogribb]

Viral yes...I wonder what will go on inside the local centers outside the Dera?Westerners don't generally have a good attitude about this kind of thing.But scandal has rocked many religions before and they keep going on.This may differ because RSSB possesses GIHF and he has just been shown to possess Clay Feet.For me I wonder if Gurinder is shown to not be as advertised what of the GIHF who appointed him? Was he then also as Gurinder ?..mundane and human...sad.The older folks have their faith of origin to return to and that will comfort them.Those raised in RS may not have that option or inclination

[tucson]

Dogribb remarked: "..I wonder if Gurinder is shown to not be as advertised what of the GIHF who appointed him? Was he then also as Gurinder ?..mundane and human.."

--I think the family business of Guru Inc. started with the "great master" Sawan Singh, grandfather of Charan Singh who was the predessor and uncle of the current master, Gurinder Singh. The master of Sawan Singh was Jaimal Singh whose status as a master was controversial in his day among the various Radha Soami factions that spun off from the founder of the line, Seth Shiv Dayal Singh who was said to be a disciple of Tulsi Sahib (Das?). There was a 3 year stint as Sat Guru by Jagat Singh, a non-blood relative, between Sawan and Charan. Jagat's authority was challenged by Kirpal Singh who claimed he was the true successor to Sawan. He formed his own spin-off group and from that one others also spun off. The whole thing is rather sordid IMO, but there is no doubt that from a material point of view Gurinder is the most successful.

[Jon Weiss]

Gugu is, like, SO busted.

Sounds like there is a big leak
near the top.

His Curriculum vitae is starting
to sound like the Anti-Christ.

So much for the Path of Righteousness leading to heavenly bliss.

[sapient]

Tara, this information won't effect the satsangis cause they have closed their eyes and ears. Thats why RSSB is not a path but a cult. First of all nobody will question this, and might call his Mauj. ( Mauj of enjoying other people's money:)

And so what if couple of satsangis will loose their mental balance after discovering such things and getting disillusioned, they will be labeled as serving their Karmas!!

Or if this issue somehow becomes big and lot of questions are being asked ( which I doubt) then dear Babaji will give a vague answer in one of the satsangs and everybody will be quiet and then a email chain will start, not to discuss about it :):)

[Arjun]

This may be big news for the Radha Soami community, but it looks like many people in the corporate sector in India already knew of this since the last quarter of 2008 when emails on the subject abounded. It was only a matter of time before someone put it all together and said >>

[greenoak]

Long time listener - first time caller.

Personal pertinent demographics
46 yrs old
Went to a Catholic school
Initiated in 1995

A few things came to mind... First I thought, “hmm, sounds like a cool place to work.” After reading article and comments I thought, "shoulder shrug."

Gotta be a disjuncture on the ideology landscape between East and West I think. I’ve never had any misconceptions about GIHF. Human, to me at least, means inherently flawed. So gurus are flawed, some more than others. Jesus was flawed - at least he was in Jesus Christ Superstar, which is my definitive version of the New Testament.

From a Eastern or Indian cultural perspective, I do see the sort of devotion to the outside form of this guy that you’all criticize. I’ve always been bothered by this fanaticism. The books certainly go on about it. But my Western sensibilities are unsettled by it. I never got the Darshan thing. The seva thing is weird. I’ve never given any money or devoted any time to seva within the RSSB community. It never felt right to me. Smacked of evangelical TV. Seva to me always meant helping out someone other than yourself in a way that you wouldn’t normally do. Seva and Darshan are not part of the four vows. I’ve never had any burning inclination to go to India.

I can say it was good to get away from a very busy life to go to Petaluma for a couple of mornings and listen to Satsang.

Besides I think we’re not even listening to what he (Gurinder) is saying. He said at Petaluma that it’s not the external form you should be idolizing, but the internal form. I remember him saying that if by glance or by touching the guru’s feet we could receive enlightment he would stay up there all day and let people come by all day long. But he said it’s not about that at all. It’s the internal form were supposed to be after. He said we could throw all the books into the ocean. It's not about the books.

The loudspeaker announcements at Petaluma all say don’t follow the guy around. Don’t run after him etc. But lots of people run after that external form. It’s people’s own fault if they get dupped. It pretty humorous really.

In fact I’ve often thought that the dude is trying to shake up the community. Look at the policy changes. Little or no new literature. No pictures. Discouraging people from writing down things. Not allowing initiation till 25. It’s got all the traditionalists in a row. Gurinder (and the books for that matter) openly encourage people to search for all information - including on the Internet. Perhaps this is a means to an end.

I think the philosophical framework is OK though - spiritual cause & effect, the four vows, simran using the five words etc. I’ve always thought of the journey described during initiation (which I dimly remember) as a Transcendental - George Harrison - Moody Blues - Mediation thing. But I figure the trick is to not get caught up on the outward description either in discussion or in meditation.

[Catherine]

Greenoak, GS does not want to be held accountable, or to sound absurd when heard or read a second time. He relies on the lerving feeling of the herd at the time and his charisma that is created when he engages with that.

[tAo]

greenoak,

if you believe in RS, then thats your business... but don't try to justify all the bullshit of the RS propaganda and mind control and guru cultism.

and fyi, the RS philosophy is full of holes and contradictions. only the philosophically naive buy into that sort of rubbish.

RS is nothing more than a religious guru cult that uses dogma to extract money and seva (work) from thousands of foolish gullible believers.

if you knew that it was not going to get you anywhere except waste your precious time and life in an illusion, then you would dump it and its phoney master instantly. you just have not yet realized how you got suckered.

and btw, i am not interested in "listening to what he (Gurinder) is saying". not in the least. the guy is a guaranteed total fraud spiritually, not to mention a corrupt power and money hungry sleazebag. the whole of the RS guru-cult is a facade which hides its bogus and feudalistic nature. its a dead end. it and all other cults and religious myths like it, are headed for collapse and oblivion in the now impending apocalypse (the unveiling).

i advise you to wake up out of your childish spiritual fantasy and embrace reality.

[greenoak]

Oops - guess I picked the wrong rabbit out the hat. I'll refrain from posting again.

[Brian Hines]

greenoak, you might have noticed that the Web in general, and blogs in particularly, are places where people discuss things openly. And often passionately.

Here's a bit of advice: if you don't want to be challenged, you shouldn't make a habit of posting comments on the Internet. Or writing letters to the editor. Or speaking out in public about subjects you care about.

I do all of these things. I enjoy them. And naturally I get challenged frequently. People disagree with me. They insult me. They call me names.

You're free to never post another comment on this blog again. That's your choice. I just hope that you'll find the self-confidence to stick up for what you believe, and not worry too much about how other people respond to what you say.

[tAo]

greenoak,

i was simply being bluntly honest in reponse to your previous comment. but with no intention to offend you personally. you are more than welcome to continue posting. like Brian said, if you assert beliefs or make claims, then someone will likely challenge you. this is a discussion forum with people who have various viewpoints. some folks may agree with you, some may not. try not to take it take it personally. i think you said that you had been lurking here for awhile, but had never commented. you shouldn't feel that you cannot express your views here. you can, and i hope you do so more. so don't let me scare you away. i am just a brutally honest sort of guy. i try to be candid about what i think and feel. i encourage you to do that as well. and since you are an RS initiate, i hope you'll stick around awhile. the more the merrier. *grin*

peace

[Catherine]

Yes Greenoak, stick around!!! C'mon! Come play!

[Dr. TAO]

"like Brian said, if you assert beliefs or make claims, then someone will likely challenge you"

which is exactly that nothing constructive can come out of this site
because there is no dialogue
there is only chalenges against claims
i claim that aliens exist
i claim that goats milk is better than cows milk
and i claim that rice milk is better the cows milk. Because when i place them all in a glass the winner is the rice milk. It is all bullocks mate. Until you see urself in the other and accept him/her as an extension of you, all of us in turn alter ego's of each other, without a prototype ego to replicate, then you will just assert challenges to claims.

Hawkins, Stephen, has come out and said that given the the enormousness of the universe there are aliens, intelligent aliens, who are probably more aggressive than pacifists. Given that this has come from the science Guru of our days this must carry gravity no? Its today in the times.

I will not talk so much about evidence. What is the presence of evidence, FOR SOMETHING, for one alter ego is the absence of evidence, For That something, for another alter ego.

Now I will refer myself to Marcel Mauss, the famous anthropologist, cousin of Durkheim who wrote about the "Gift". This is order to keep this in a cross cultural perspective. There is something interesting about this site and this whole debate in general: It is a U.S site having a foucaultian discourse with eastern philosophies. It is not unusual for hindus to bark into the posts and pro-claim that the Americans, or excuse me, the Westerners, are not exactly "getting it" as far as Hindu culture is concern. Understanding a culture is like a getting a joke, social anthropologists say. Cutlure is the symbolic webs of significance that man has sprung and is entangle with. C.Geertz. This issue, of the religare, has a added a different twist to the attack by many against the rssb by ppl from this site whose faces we do not know, their poliitical orienteations we do not know, ppl who like myself, are alter egos with egos we do not know.

Economics!!! these ppl thought. Economics. Like George W. Bush attesting the arrest of Hussein, the 'pundits' (thats how u call'em in the us?) are on the attack towards...typographical, screamins, protests, accusation. asserionts.

Tuscon, the compationate non-dualist poem who eats meat so that he can physically consume and be on w the 'other' has said (search for an entire blog on the subject when he pulls strings from here and there to confirm that killing pigs and eating them is a good thing, part of our evolution). Ok.

"My sympathies to those who once believed and now realize the truth."

I will not accept your con-passions. You can have them for urself.

That RSSB is huge, there is now doubt. Just go at the website, on the WWW, and see the twenty or so centers or around the world. Dozens of millions of dollars worth. That these centers 'COST' money there is no doubt. Now, even the most hardcore anarchists have to maintain relationshipw with the world through the dollar standard. I am sorry to say, but the reason that all these ultimately has to happen, is because of 4-5 countries maintaining this status quo. Sometimes people exchange via necklaces. sometimes they exchange via green papers. That RSSb has a lot of those green papaers is undeniable. But if you wish to begin tracing the relationship you must go back when the Great Master was sending coin for coin to his master for the dear to be created. That, alongside other donations, must have been 'a lot' of money at the time.. Since then, RSSB has never displayed itself as an economically poor organisation. The Guru never came out and said, like other gurus perhaps, do not make money, or it is bad to be rich, or if you are rich you cannot enter heaven. etc. The historical record does suggest that 'enlightened' masters were kings, and kings did become englightened. Same for butchers and homeless pp. So, the current Master may have gotttn SOME shares from some relatives. Ok, I lived in the states for a long time right...I was a waiter...i saw groups of close american friends splitting the bill 90% of the time and I would always wander what kind of a shallow relationship they must have. That was then offcourse. But its a long from where i come from where we fight for who to pay the bill, or at least who will the greatest propotion of it. I could never understand how a married couple had different accounts and i could never understand how children would have an 'allowance' a prv account etc. I still can't But I have accepted and i do not corelate shallowness, let say, based on economics. Despite having many millions that are opposed to general health care because it is not affordable, and because its communist and because and because and because.....A simple issue that took forteen months and 10 presidents to reform. While at the same time the us military budget surpasses the rest of the world combined...So we have to more careful with ecn analysis especially when it is a critique of other cultures. Especially if you read polanyi and kuhn and etc this must mean something.

That is why I will refer to one of the most important anthropological texts and I will quote from Graeber, an anthropologists was at yale, now at goldsmith and is one the best anth. theorists out there.
If you want to read it read it. I think it can help this blog reach a level of analysis beyond the FACTS AND THE EVIDENCE and the condescending comments by some.

By (http://www.freewords.org/graeber.html)

"By all accounts, though, Mauss was never taken completely seriously in his role of heir apparent (of his uncle [Durkheim]); a man of extraordinary erudition (he knew at least a dozen languages, including Sanskrit, Maori and classical Arabic), he still, somehow, lacked the gravity expected of a grand professeur. A former amateur boxer, he was a burly man with a playful, rather silly manner, the sort of person always juggling a dozen brilliant ideas rather than building great philosophical systems. He spent his life working on at least five different books (on prayer, on nationalism, on the origins of money, etc.), none of which he ever finished. Still, he succeeded in training a new generation of sociologists and inventing French anthropology more or less single-handedly, as well as in publishing a series of extraordinarily innovative essays, just about each one of which has generated an entirely new body of social theory all by itself.

Mauss' essay on "the gift" was, more than anything, his response to events in Russia – particularly Lenin's New Economic Policy of 1921, which abandoned earlier attempts to abolish commerce. If the market could not simply be legislated away, even in Russia, probably the least monetarized European society, then clearly, Mauss concluded, revolutionaries were going to have to start thinking a lot more seriously about what this "market" actually was, where it came from, and what a viable alternative to it might actually be like. It was time to bring the results of historical and ethnographic research to bear.

Mauss' conclusions were startling. First of all, almost everything that "economic science" had to say on the subject of economic history turned out to be entirely untrue. The universal assumption of free market enthusiasts, then as now, was that what essentially drives human beings is a desire to maximize their pleasures, comforts and material possessions (their "utility"), and that all significant human interactions can thus be analyzed in market terms. In the beginning, goes the official version, there was barter. People were forced to get what they wanted by directly trading one thing for another. Since this was inconvenient, they eventually invented money as a universal medium of exchange. The invention of further technologies of exchange (credit, banking, stock exchanges) was simply a logical extension.

The problem was, as Mauss was quick to note, there is no reason to believe a society based on barter has ever existed. Instead, what anthropologists were discovering were societies where economic life was based on utterly different principles, and most objects moved back and forth as gifts – and almost everything we would call "economic" behavior was based on a pretense of pure generosity and a refusal to calculate exactly who had given what to whom. Such "gift economies" could on occasion become highly competitive, but when they did it was in exactly the opposite way from our own: Instead of vying to see who could accumulate the most, the winners were the ones who managed to give the most away. In some notorious cases, such as the Kwakiutl of British Columbia, this could lead to dramatic contests of liberality, where ambitious chiefs would try to outdo one another by distributing thousands of silver bracelets, Hudson Bay blankets or Singer sewing machines, and even by destroying wealth – sinking famous heirlooms in the ocean, or setting huge piles of wealth on fire and daring their rivals to do the same.

ll of this may seem very exotic. But as Mauss also asked: How alien is it, really? Is there not something odd about the very idea of gift-giving, even in our own society? Why is it that, when one receives a gift from a friend (a drink, a dinner invitation, a compliment), one feels somehow obliged to reciprocate in kind? Why is it that a recipient of generosity often somehow feels reduced if he or she cannot? Are these not examples of universal human feelings, which are somehow discounted in our own society – but in others were the very basis of the economic system? And is it not the existence of these very different impulses and moral standards, even in a capitalist system such as our own, that is the real basis for the appeal of alternative visions and socialist policies? Mauss certainly felt so.

In a lot of ways Mauss' analysis bore a marked resemblance to Marxist theories about alienation and reification being developed by figures like György Lukács around the same time. In gift economies, Mauss argued, exchanges do not have the impersonal qualities of the capitalist marketplace: In fact, even when objects of great value change hands, what really matters is the relations between the people; exchange is about creating friendships, or working out rivalries, or obligations, and only incidentally about moving around valuable goods. As a result everything becomes personally charged, even property: In gift economies, the most famous objects of wealth - heirloom necklaces, weapons, feather cloaks – always seem to develop personalities of their own.

n a market economy it's exactly the other way around. Transactions are seen simply as ways of getting one's hands on useful things; the personal qualities of buyer and seller should ideally be completely irrelevant. As a consequence everything, even people, start being treated as if they were things too. (Consider in this light the expression "goods and services.") The main difference with Marxism, however, is that while Marxists of his day still insisted on a bottom-line economic determinism, Mauss held that in past market-less societies – and by implication, in any truly humane future one – "the economy," in the sense of an autonomous domain of action concerned solely with the creation and distribution of wealth, and which proceeded by its own, impersonal logic, would not even exist.

Mauss was never entirely sure what his practical conclusions were. The Russian experience convinced him that buying and selling could not simply be eliminated in a modern society, at least "in the foreseeable future," but a market ethos could. Work could be co-operatized, effective social security guaranteed and, gradually, a new ethos created whereby the only possible excuse for accumulating wealth was the ability to give it all away. The result: a society whose highest values would be "the joy of giving in public, the delight in generous artistic expenditure, the pleasure of hospitality in the public or private feast."

Conclusion. All i know about RSSB, is that it tells me to abstain from meat, drugs and crazy sex and meditate 3-4 hours every night. and Another one hour during the day. And keep my mind focused in the eye center repeating my mantra when i can through the day. Now if you do want to do this and think this wrong. Cool. I don't like watching the Daily Show at 11 et. but i dont think john is evil. Furthermore, I never took out money from my pocket to give to RSSB was never asked to and never anyone ever implied that i had to. I went to centers all around the world. I slept for free, i ate for free, i drunk for free and bought perhaps a dozen books on the way for a collective thirty or forty dollars. The most arduous thing, and most mentally consuming thing that i probably ever did, and one i shouldnt have done, is putting my mind down to write this long comment. This is not a defence. This is a gift from me to you.

[George]

lol, Dr. Tao, i actually found stephen hawkings speculation on the possible aggression of alien species quite amusing, and quite counter to much mainstream thought that tends to assume beings that are more technological advanced would also be more loving and peaceful.

I am not sure where i stand here but Hawkings is not along in these thoughts, even in the 60s when radioastronomy was in its infancy, there were all sorts of ramifications considered.

I think Hawkings' arguement is that given the way different species on the planet have historically behaved to one another, especially insofar as say humans to 'lower' forms of animal life, that it is not inconceivable that a more advanced alien species could well consider humans as mere cannon fodder or a disease to be wiped out.

Your anthropological appraoch is not really an explanation i associate with, there are ppl in every society who are of noble spirit as it were, who are as close to saints as I think I could describe not coming from a religious background, they are the sorts of ppl who look out for others before themselves and certainly dont seek to accumulate wealth for themselves while others around them are starving. If the shares were accumulated to give straight back to the millions of poor ppl in india, that indeed would have demonstrated something far more noble in spirit, than any words from a supposed guru amassing wealth, ever could.

[George]

besides what does GIHF need money for in this illusory world of pain, when his sole purpose is supposedly to offer respite to such suffering of others.

seems to me the making of money for selfgain goes precisely agains the very precepts as set out by the param sants.

[Brian Hines]

Dr. TAO, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in your comment. Maybe you could say it in your own words, briefly and directly.

You say that this blog isn't about dialogue. I disagree. That's what we're doing now: having a dialogue.

Much of this necessarily involves truth claims, because religious believers often claim that X is true. Not just that they believe it is true, but that X is an objectively true state of affairs.

Using your example, if you claim that aliens exist, it is entirely reasonable for me to ask, "What is the evidence for this?" I also would be justified in asking you, "Why is goat's milk better than cow's milk?"

You seem to feel that challenging truth claims isn't genuine dialogue. Again, I disagree. In everyday conversation, this is a big part of what goes on: someone makes a claim, and another person says, "I don't agree. Here's why..."

Subjective opinions aren't subject to challenge. If you say, "I like goat's milk better than cow's milk," I'll reply, "Great. I don't feel that way, but I respect your like." Same goes for your favorite religion or spiritual path.

It's only when you make some claim about an objective state of affairs that you're open to being challenged.

[Dr. DAO]

http://www.sleepykid.org/blog/2007/01/13/army-of-altruists/

Ok. Let me elaborate a little. I apologise to the rest for copy pasting. I do not mean to flood the site with long documents. But it will conclude my point, which is, that the way we interprete actions and behaviors should not only be 'market' placed, because the ethics and moralities that are being proposed by this 'market based analysis' are neither as free nor liberal as they portray themselves to be (ask who and what creates these 'morals') and most most importantly these morals are not universal: They are not the basis for human thinking. The 'free market' way of thinking, is not an essential quality of the human species. The human species, 20,000 years ago and 20,000 miles away may not even think, or even conceive itself in terms of altruism, egoism etc.

The tradition of a shaman, a medicine man, a guru, a master, a high priest, the medium-ship woman, healer, spiritualist, from tribes such as the Azande, the Nuer, in Tibet, amazonia, in Siberia :every where...the peyote, the ancient greek mysteries etc etc are rituals and social formation that evolved before the market. Before the dollar. Before the Central bank. Before interest rates. Before the gold standard. Actually before is not adequate enought. They exist as such after that. Now that they, may have to deal with money, is undisputed, but it does not mean that they have the same conception or the same attitude, and motives behind these -necessary -financial lets us say dealings. The shaman, was a figure who was part and parcel of human evolution since the caves. Was a man who ate the psychadelics or meditate his brain out. Either you like it or not it is a persona who has has been part and parcel of the social part of the biological evolution of humans. As homo sapiens. And so were rituals and so were drugs. The effects of these pharmaceutics on the expansion of the brain has been immense. And this is a scientific fact. And so was meditation, which, perhaps we can prove it in the same way we can prove drug use (From raisin in 30,000 year old bongs for example). So this figure, the Shaman, is an old figure.The medicine man. The healer. The seer of Visions. Even the 'logical' Greeks had their Tiresias, and even Solon visited the Egyptians to learn..well to learn.And They taught him.

Now because the market says that human beings by nature want to accumulate as much shit as possible, more than monkeys even, is just a speculation, it is suggestive and psychologicaly ungrounded. Taken from how marketers picked up Freuds theories and re-applied to market research (Watch "The century of the self" in google/video) The shaman who charges 30 dollars for a psychodelic trip does not mean he is greedy. Nor does the card lady who reads ur luck for a fiver. Now if u give her a fiver, and next time she sais stuff to someone that make one give her twenty dollars next time, and fifty the next, and 100 the one after is crystal clear she is a fraught. But Never Generalise With a Particular. Just compare bush w obama. So are cults who charge and manipulate the disciples into having sex w them and taking their money. And so are governments who do the same thing. And so are bankers. But, humans, by and large in their everyday life do not act with market principles in their mind. This the illusion that the market sells to the people to make them interprete their actions as such. When you meet a friend or when you pay your barber it is more than just a cash transaction.

Picking up from Mauss, Groeber and the Gift from the post above:

This is Graeber speaking:

http://www.sleepykid.org/blog/2007/01/13/army-of-altruists/

[Dr. DAO]

No Brian, i do not accept ur claim.
In everyday life when someone makes a claim
not every one will ask
"I don't agree. Here's why..."

No no no my friend. Not all the times. I may say something to u. And you might perceive it as claim. But maybe i was thinking out loud. Maybe i do not perceive it as a claim per se. But even so. The symbolic system of culture and language does not permit such a generalisation across the globe! If i claim that rice milk is better than cows milk and you as say " I do not agree. Here is why..." then it does not mean we disagree because we dissagree on our claims. That is the illusion. That is the social illusion of thinking that all people should be the same. And all cultures should be the same.
What i am trying to say to you is that when i say that rice milk is better than cows milk...You do not have to refute my answer. You do not have to express yourself and say what you claim is better. Because what you claim is better is born out of a discourse, my claim, first of all, and second...what does your claim have to do with my claim.

Dr.Dao
I claim that rice milk is better than cow's milk
Brian
I claim that cow's milk is better because...

Dr. Dao
I claim that aliens exist
Brian
I claim that aliens do not exist....

Dr. Dao
I claim that Guru is God
Brian
I claim that Guru is not God because

Dr.Dao
I claim that Guru is God
Brian
I claim that Guru is not God because

Dr.Dao
I claim that Rice milk is better than sodas
Brian
I agree

Again:

Dr.Dao
I claim that rice milk is better than cow's milk
Brian:..................

Dr.Dao
I claim that rice rice milk is better than cow's milk
.............

Dr.Dao: I claim that Guru is God in human form
Brian:.....the butterflies indicate spring

or even.

Dr.Dao: I claim that Guru is God in human form
Brian:...........

Dr. Dao: I claim that Guru is God in human form
.......

I claim that Guru is God in human form

Why do you feel the need to reciprocate each answer?
AAh because you are searching, (the always flucntuating no locatable you) is searching for objective truth in a stable universe...aaaah

That is why you say

"Subjective opinions aren't subject to challenge. If you say, "I like goat's milk better than cow's milk," I'll reply, "Great. I don't feel that way, but I respect your like." Same goes for your favorite religion or spiritual path.

It's only when you make some claim about an objective state of affairs that you're open to being challenged."

[Dr. DAO]

Brian said

"ITt's only when you make some claim about an objective state of affairs that you're open to being challenged."

Objective state of afairs?

Only then are u being challenged? When you make some claim...SOME CLAIM about OBJective STate of AFFairs? State of affairs. Objective State of Affairs? you can speak and speak until,,,,u make Some kind of claim on an objective state of afair,..then you are Screwed...you re going to be challenged...OMG!

The only objective state of afairs is when this mantra (of objective state of affairs) makes you go round and round around an imaginary shadow of imagined objective affairs. That is when you are being challenged. By urself. Like a dog chasing its tale.

I read this guy tAo. Half the times he is full of s*** and other times he makes sense. Especially where he says that there is no self. No ego. etc. Cause there is none. Is that god damn science...the objective state of afairs that makes an ego appear. a self. There is no more self to humans than cows. So that is why rice milk is better than cow milk. Somehow that is why. Do no ask me why.

Dr.DAO

[Dr. DAO]

I am not being condescending
As a matter of fact I hold great respect for you

[George]

"The effects of these pharmaceutics on the expansion of the brain has been immense. And this is a scientific fact"

Based on what? Subjective accounts of having one's mind opened are not scientific fact. While drugs seem to induce an altered state of consciousness, is this state closer or further from reality? And how is the brain expanded?

The free market has nothing to do with it imo. I am talking of altruism and empathy. The concept of giving too others who are more needy than yourself, which are human traits, albeit relatively rare, that are culurally-independent, i.e. found in every society on earth.

I understood the whole goal of the Satgurus in the RS tradition is to come back to earth to alleviate the suffering of ppl in this physical world of pain and suffering. Is Seva not meant at exactly this?

Interesting comment on Solon and the egyptians.

[ka_karamba]

Bottom line is these Yankee doodle dandy's are just simply and basically jealous that these Singh Bros are one step ahead of them in the game.

If it were Gates or Trump or Rockafeller making the big deal share transactions not a peep would be heard, then its ra ra ra hooray up the Americano Capitalist enterprise.

Since its now an Indian family transacting good business all above board, these Yanks have to go to every length available to try find some 'dirt' on them.

try as you might you ain't gonna find none. Its all 100% legit and above board, clean as a whistle, and you going to choke on your own bile trying to make it dirty.

[tAo]

Ashy/ka_karumba, you're absolutely WRONG.

The Rothchilds, the Rockefellers, to a slightly lesser degree Gates, Soros, etc etc, and to a much lesser degree Trump, are all globalist elitists and facists, and they are sworn enemies to the hard-working common people. They are far worse and far more evil than those puny little guys the Singh Bros.

and YOU apparently are an idiot communist fool and a religious fundamentalist blog troll.

[Dr. DAO]

little tAo...first of all...you do not have an iota of an idea what communism is, or even what you mean when you say the word. You probably met some kind of anarchists yes...some leftists (very dif btw, see above) yes,,there are some leftists in the United States of America,,,but you have never met a communist, you have probably never had a friend that lived under 'communism' and certainly, most certainly, you have never ever ever ever experienced 'communism;. Not because you are living in the 'individualist' , 'you can be what you dream' 'and the nature of human existence is to accumulate as much stuff as you can" United States of America. You are experiencing an oligarchy as bad as russia, but because you are sooo happy not be 'communist', you are content and happy. Marx never wrote about communism, as you may know, because u apear to be an intellectual of a sort,,,not really in political sciences, but something of the sort. Still, you do not have an idea of a clue what you mean with the word communism. Is more ambiguous than the word god. and the word 'is'. And then you married...your idea of what the fu** communism is with religious fundamentalism.... Mate. Churches in Europe are turning either into trance clubs or places to store hot air for new bacterial cultures to evolve fromt the one thousand year old molded walls. Guess which other country apart from some muslim ones has religious fundamentalists...think really hard for this one... (some muslim countries,,,mira,,,only some...perhaps a two or three,,,those that the Great Britain and recently the United States of America helped to create as independed nations) Really take a a guess which country has religious fundamentalist. That passes fascist imigration laws...aaah tuscon...Which little beautiful town all the hippies go to avoid the snowflakes and these fascists...ah tuscon? It is all very sad really. It makes me sad. Because there are working people in the USA as every where in the world.. I do not mean to sound that i am enjoying..but i wrote it, so i am not going to delete it. As if i had spoken it in a conversation. I apologise. But...
you attack another person and accuse him of being a Communist and religious fundamentalist...Do you realise how ridiculus and myopic this sounds little tAo?

In a church of the churchless there should only be love for those with churches and for the churchless

Lets talk about love man..lets talk about love. Brian said in his previous post that pouring a cup of tea is for him the same as tasting ramakrishnas' Sugar...

Well...if IT is the same thing..and you can taste That Sugar in your tea.....[respectful silence].
Now.... Talk to us about love Brian.
You went around every single topic in your blogs.
No. Dont talk about love.
Talk love.
Be love.
Be love.
Write about love.
Since taking a shit and giving birth is the same...then why not talk about love, which is soothing to the spirit and brings people together. Combine love with intellectuality and u make the Maulana from Konia to play the flute from 4th from his his grave.
We are all the same.
We are all the same.
Can't you see?
You and osama and obama and rihiana and the communist children in africa, and the religious fundamentalists in mars. and the pigs in the sea, and the lilies in the snow, and the dogs, and the you and me, and all. its all one. Its one. Its always one. Dogs, and the you and me, and all. its all one.Its one.Its always one.Dogs, and the you
and me, and all.its all one...Always is always one.

Never changing...always changing...beyond changing and not changing,,,beyond and below changing and not changing.in a state non state, where state and non state loose meaning,,in and out loose meaning..its more than one. It AWE
And as all is one, so is shabd...so is shabd..

Time for a poem by Kabir !!!!

If I say its one, it is not so
If i say it is two, it is a blasphemy
It is what it is, says Kabir after profound thought.

and another.

By reading books, one cannot reach Him;
by speaking and talking, His limits cannot be found.
Through the Guru, His value is found;
through the True Word of the Shabad, understanding is obtained.

|| || So reform this mind and body, by contemplating the Word of the Guru’s Shabad. O Nanak, within this body is the treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; it is found through the Love of the Infinite Guru.

Dr.DAO

we all live in a yellow submarine
turquoise submarine
see through submarine

we all live in a yellow submarine
turquoise submarine
see through submarine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCsYDZ2M04M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdhR5XZNXbs
mushishi...look how sophisticated anime has become (take a moment if u like to wiki the author. interesting..and this anime is for children. if you like this go for 'spirited away', or 'metropolis', or 'ghost in the shell')

we all live in a yellow submarine
yellow submarine
yellow submarine

[tAo]

First btw, "Dr. DAO", my comment was not addressed to YOU or about you, it was addressed to "ka_karumba" (who is quite obviously none other than Ashy Heller), who is an RS cult fundamentalist wacko, and an admitted communist who has posted numerous personal insults and dogamatic rants on this blog previously.

That being said... next, from the looks of your comment to me, you apparently have less than one iota of understanding of what communism is, and you certainly do not have any inkling as to what I do or do not know. You don't know anything about me, or about where I have been, or what the degree and extent of my knowledge and education is.

Fyi, I have not asssociated with, nor do I subscibe to or support "anarchists" or anarchism. You donlt kow anyting about my political orientation or beliefs or values. The fact that you assume that you do, shows how stupid and unintelligent you are.

You don't know whether I have "met a communist" or not. and I have known alot more diverse people than you can imagine. You also don't know what I have "experienced".

Also, btw, the United States of America is NOT anything like the generalization that you have described as "the nature of human existence is to accumulate as much stuff as you can". It shows how very foolish and narrow-minded you are, and how little you actually understand regarding the nature of the USA.

Also, I am quite well aware of the oligarchy that has taken control over many western countries.

You don't know what I may be happy about, and it has nothing to do with being against communism.

You say: "u apear to be an intellectual of a sort". Well, you don't what I am, or what I know about "political sciences". But is is fairly apparent to me that you do not know much about what is realy going on in the USA and the world.

I happen to know far more about "communism" than you suspect or realize.

I also have nothing to do with "religious fundamentalism" or "religious fundamentalists", or churches. You must somehow have me mixed up with someone else... or else you are a delusional wacko.

You said: "aaah tuscon...Which little beautiful town all the hippies go to avoid the snowflakes and these fascists...ah tuscon?"

-- You are obviously mixed up. because I am not tucson.

You said: "you attack another person and accuse him of being a Communist and religious fundamentalist"

-- The commenter that I addressed has actually said that he is a communist, and clearly, he is also a religious fundamentlist... as many of us here know from his numerous religious fundamentalist comments and rants. So you need to get your rather faulty assumptions, judgements, and info corrected.

And btw, I am not "little tAo". I dare say I am far larger, stronger, and much tougher than you, both physically as well as mentally. So I doubt you would be saying that to me in person. Your game is nothing more than cheap ridicule. which is what the small minded and the physical weaklings do.

"In a church of the churchless there should only be love for those with churches and for the churchless"

-- You have failed to understand the meaning of "Church of the Churchless". You are just a dimwitted fool with a big mouth.

"Lets talk about love man..lets talk about love. Brian said in his previous post that pouring a cup of tea is for him the same as tasting ramakrishnas' Sugar... you can taste That Sugar in your tea."

-- I don't give a shit about Ramakrishna. and I dare say that I deeply know a hell of alot more about Ramakrishna than you ever ever will. Have you ever been to Dakshineshwar, Mr Dao? If you had been there, and you were familar with Ramakrishna, then you surely wouldn't be as boldly presumptious and as full of shit as you have been towards me.

[captainobvious]

this comment thread totally reminded me of this image.

http://api.ning.com/files/TAQisU8LBDTC4tC2heaDQOeZS-Rrz2YNGCp-ALFZ1sJzULMurkS8G5BTohOglWuUPCEePfSXGLMBkHkrH2gmH7CuAYuO65-A/arguingontheinternet.jpg

[Dr. DAO]

the soft overcomes the rigid they say

captainobvious, your comment is obviously disturbing.

[Bobo]

Tao,

Apocalypse (the unveiling)??????? Could you direct me to a website or something that explains this?

[Bobo]

Yoda from Star Wars inspires me.

I don't know why.

I know that he is, at best, a complex sock puppet.

Yet when I watch him, I wish he were my guru.

The fact that he is a complex sock puppet does not stop me from enjoying the experience.

Maybe that's why I still meditate?

I'm not after reality. I'm after the experience. The high.

At least it's a little healthier than crack cocaine (or whatever is 'in' these days).

[Cyfer]

Tara, I think your right about Charan. His life was hijacked by gurudom. He hated it when he found out. I think he hated passively lying to people, Letting people thing he was special. The only time he meditated was so sawan would let him out of a forced marriage. I thought he was always dropping hints that RS is a fraud. Especially how he hurried to get "treasure beyond measure" out the door. That's where he confesses he is "not what people that him to be".

At any rate, RS is a fraud and we are all kinda "special" to debate "is a obviously naked man really, actually, wearing clothes ?"

[tucson]

Having spent a lot of time around Charan, I think Cyfer is corret. He was basically a nice man stuck in a role he never wanted to play but submitted to it due to heavy pressures from within the RSSB hierarchy.

One time I asked him to bless a shawl that I used for many years afterwards in meditation. This is hard to convey, but there was a perfunctory manner in the way he did it that indicated he knew there was no special power in his blessing of this sheet of wool fabric. But I thought there was and that was the power in it.

People used to think he was just being modest like a sat guru should be when he would say "I am just a servant of the sangat and nothing more." I think he meant it...the 'nothing more' part especially. Probably within himself he thought of himself more as a slave than a servant. He did a good job. Maybe he was even brave knowing this was his destiny to the end. On the other hand I wish he had the 'cajones' to admit the whole thing was a charade.

I think he would have been ecstatic to be liberated from his burden and be able to live a normal life as an attorney, family man, take walks and pursue his photography hobby. It must have been weird for him to be a figurehead perpetuating a myth. He may have found a way to reconcile this within himself, or maybe he never did.

[hukai]

one persons relationship with a sage is quite the opposite to another, like all non knowing speculation it begins and ends in subjective in-conclusion.

You would never know to what level or degree an enlightened individual has transcended till you yourself are in a position to conclude or make the distinction.

If and when you have reached that state that can recognize fraudulence from truth only then can you deduce anything superior to your own imperfect limitation.

At this level you are subject to incomplete analysis brought about through the lack of insight by utilizing unclear lenses of perception.

Once you have sharpened the focus of your fragile awareness only then can you in anyway be privy to the heights or depths that the soul or consciousness can reach.

Till then you are but a poor replica of the being that you inherently are, and likewise your perception is fraught with the incapacitated subjectivity that you portray in your state of non knowing lack of awareness.

[tAo]

hukai writes:

"one persons relationship with a sage is quite the opposite to another"

-- provided that the supposed "sage", is really a sage. so how can you know? but more importantly, it only matters what YOU are.

"You would never know to what level or degree an enlightened individual has transcended till you yourself are in a position to conclude or make the distinction."

-- well i happen to be in that position... which is the position of being able to make such a distinction, for my self. and you don't know that i am not able to determine "to what level or degree" an individual has transcended. but as far as "enlightened individual" goes, there is no such thing. enlightenment is an illusion, a myth.

"If and when you have reached that state that can recognize fraudulence from truth only then can you deduce anything superior to your own imperfect limitation."

-- well i have "reached that state that can recognize fraudulence from truth". but i don't agree that there is nything "superior". everyone is limited in some way. an no one is perfect. human perfection is a myth.

"At this level you are subject to incomplete analysis brought about through the lack of insight by utilizing unclear lenses of perception."

-- but how are you so certain of that, since YOU too have "lack of insight" and "unclear lenses of perception". you are just a pot calling another kettle black.

"Once you have sharpened the focus of your fragile awareness only then can you in anyway be privy to the heights or depths that the soul or consciousness can reach."

-- but how do you know that others have not "sharpened the focus" or are not "privy to the heights or depths that the soul or consciousness can reach". you do not know what others may know. you are not aware of what others may be aware of.

"Till then you are but a poor replica of the being that you inherently are"

-- what do you know about other people? you only know about your own self.

"likewise your perception is fraught with the incapacitated subjectivity that you portray in your state of non knowing lack of awareness."

-- but your comments here quite obviously reflect the very same "incapacitated subjectivity" and "non knowing lack of awareness" that you assume that others are limited by.

[tucson]

hukai (and all your many aliases),

Do you understand the point tAo made? He couldn't have made it any clearer.

You said: "Till then you are but a poor replica of the being that you inherently are,.."

--How is that possible? I am the being that I AM. You are the being that YOU ARE. We are the being that WE ARE. What else is there but what IS? Anything else is abstract, an idea, duality. Hmmm?

[hukai - (a.h.a)]

pity you didn't understand the point that was made to you in the comment above tAo's, that was the gist of the issue and addressed to you.

It was not addressed for tAo's inconclusive self righteous supposition. He, like you, are in no position to pretend you know anything, because it is clear neither of you do.

You want to talk semantics then that is your perogative, the point is until you are in a position to determine who is realized and who is not then you have no basis for commentary nor inconclusive subjective judgment.

Neither you, nor tAo, nor Brian, nor anyone for that matter. (yeah, before you regurgitate some more supposition, including me)

You are the being that you are, as you are, unrealized and unknowing of you true latent inherent perfection, till then, you remain in a position fraught with your own subjective incompleteness, as does everyone else.

[hukai]

as do most others (not everyone else)

[Robert Searle]

think the last section of my essay on Sant Mat at the kheper website is of special relevance here. For an up-to-date full version use the search words kheper, Harjit Singh, sant mat on google Kheper is the website on which my essay can be found……

………On the internet especially there have been a number of possible “scandals” concerning certain “Satgurus” (and indeed, gurus of other traditions) of the Radhasoami Faith. Much of this is questionable, and usually has little, or no independent corroboration from other witnesses. Moreover, the further back in time we go there are less records if any on any “Satguru”. Some of these “records” can be found in India Office Library and Records in London. Jaimal Singh is for example listed as being in the army there, and reference can be found to Saligram, or Huzur Maharaj being honoured by the British. Furthermore, it is possible to trace pamphlets (some proscribed), and books about the early attempts to denigrate the Radhasoami Faith, and its Satgurus. Most if not all published information had to be registered under a specific Act of Parliament

Nowadays, it is possible to quickly find out anything about anybody “illegally” via detective agencies especially on the internet where they can hack into government, and commercial computers. For example full background checks may well be possible into someone like Gurinder Singh the head of the RSSB. Yet, even these agencies admit that their data may not always be correct, and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Moreover, there is information which is essentially speculation par excellence on people by various governmental bodies around the world. For instance, Gurinder Singh was ludicrously suspected of being a drug baron. As such he was unable to leave a certain country. It turned out that the term “patron of the RSSB” was mistranslated into meaning a drug baron..!

Anyway, The the following claims may well have much greater validity concerning the reputation of certain “Satgurus.” For legal reasons, indentifying names, and places have been omitted:-

1. One “Satguru” sexually abused women now, and again. Actual witnesses statements exist.

2. A writer on the Radhasoami Faith published the claim that a certain “Satguru” sexually interferred with young girls. However, full corroborative evidence has yet to be made public.

3. A certain “Satguru” possibly used disciples to illegally smuggle in presents from other countries.

4. One “Satguru” has collected computers for the Satsang and some of these may belong to the restricted technology listing, and it would thus be illegal for them to have been imported into India.

5. Another “Satguru” had a mistress. To his credit, he admitted that this was true…

Such revelations are excellent gun-fodder for sceptics. However, I (the author) believe that in certain cases these may be a test of faith, or psychic tricks to fool people.

Some “Satgurus” may well be initiators acting purely on the behalf of their predescessor with whom they probably have inner contact. This implies they may not necessarily have reached the highest planes of “perfection”, and that their character may not also be perfect in the spiritual sense. Thus, they may do things which may be wrong, or even criminal on “rare” occassions. Yet, they still have the authority to initiate new seekers into Surat Shabd Yoga because their line of “Satgurus” has at least one Perfect Master with full spiritual power. As to why this could well be is still subject to speculation.

To find out more light on this the reader should go to my article on Multi-Dimensional Science on this website where these is a section which deals in part with this very “problem”. Reference is also made to the teaching of Faqir Chand who was a respected Shabd Yoga Mystic, and seemed to believe that its ones Higher Self which acted as the real inner Satguru (ie the Radiant Form of the Teacher) during Shabd Yoga, or any other similiar practice, and that the outer Master irrespective of his, or her actions only acted as a catalyst.

Sawan Singh though seemed to claim that at initiation he actually created the Shabd Form in each of his Satsangis. Whenever there was a serious crisis this Form would telepathically transmit its message to the physical master who would thereby make a decision. It is quite clear that we have more to learn about the actual modus operandi operating between disciple, and master. Yet, Chands ideas in the main are still valid, and relevant as far as they go.

Moreover, what matters in Surat Shabd Yoga is the need to practice, and reform oneself. Dayal Singh indicated in his Sar Bachan that one should not worry whether the Master is perfect, or not. This may be revealed within, and further inner, and perhaps outer guidance may be given to find a real one who has attained the highest plane. In other words, the Light of Truth reveals Itself.

As already suggested but expressed a little differently, the Higher Self which is ultimately our real Satguru may even manifest ItSelf as a replica of the imperfect outer Master of Shabd Yoga. Whether something like this actually happens or not probably depends on spiritual background. This “replica” or rather the Radiant Form may well be able to take the disciple to the “highest” plane of spiritual liberation. Yet, the outer manifestation of this “Guide” can do no such thing.

In keeping with most Indian mystical movement the Radhasoami Faith does not believe in the development of psychic power. Yet, the late Dr. Puri in Liverpool (UK) tried to use Shabd Yoga as a means of healing certain ailments.

G. NON-ABSOLUTIST SANT MAT..?
As mentioned Faqir Chand was a Shabd Yoga Master but his view about Sant Mat can be regarded as being non-absolutist. In keeping with mystical Hinduism he believed that different types of Yoga appealed to different kinds of people. They ultimately lead to the Supreme Source of Creation. In other words, Surat Shabd Yoga is just one of many many Paths leading to Samadhi in contradiction to what we have been saying in this essay.

Chand was very open, and honest about his inner experiences in Shabd Yoga. He even admitted that he was not necessarily right, or even had doubts about whether he reached the “highest” state of conciousness.This may be a display of pure humility, or perhaps a degree of ignorance.

One of his recognized successors was Sant Harjit Singh. It is claimed that he uses a mantra with a specific “charge”. When practised it allows the listener to go deeper, and deeper into the Sound, and Light until a state of “no-thought” is reached (referred to in this context as Maha Sunn).

A number of people who practice “pure” Surat Shabd Yoga come to him for help. Interestingly, Harjit Singh though does not believe that the inner stages “described” in the writings of Dayal Singh, and other Satgurus exist. They are regarded as projections of the mind.

Harjit Singh has pointed out that most gurus, and yogis are totally unknown to the public. As usual there is the claim too that Surat Shabd Yoga evolved from the Siddha Tradition, the Udasi branch of Sikhism, and other sources. Undoubtedly, there is great truth in all this.

At the end of the day, the individual must reach his, or her conclusion on such matters. As far as the author is concerned it is probably the best bet to accept the absolutist stance on Sant Mat, and get initiated by a Perfect Master….otherwise there could be possible “danger” of just going to the lower pure planes which are not beyond the realms of reincarnation. The ultimate aim probably of human life is to achieve true Liberation via Self-Realization, and genuine God-Realization in the “highest” Region of Super-Conciousness.

Apart from the Radhasoami Faith proper there are other virtually unknown groups which believe inner Sound, or the Word is the sole means of achieving the Truth. One headed by the “Satguru” Santsevi springs to mind.

Surat Shabd Yoga is quite probably not just another Yogic Path in spite of what many people “in the know” may say. However, in an infinite spiritual universe anything is possible, and it is important to retain an open mind. As the Masters say…the Truth lies ultimately within.

[Jen]

Robert Searle, thank you for your research and for sharing.

Cheers

[Robert Searle]

I have just noticed on the wikipedia entry on Gurinder Singh that he is referred as a Sevadar rather than as a Sant Satguru? I am not quite sure whether this is a recent change, or not?

[Robert Searle]

To Jen,

You have to remember that the REAL HIGHER SELF is in all of us. "Worshipping" Gurinder is simply worhsipping the same SELF which is in all of us. Ideally, for such a Guru like him his outer actions to a large extent should demonstrate it. Even if they do not to some degree it probably does not matter much (though it may be socially hypocritical, and "unacceptable" for obvious reasons).

The idea here, and in my kheper essay is nothing new. For example, the Dharma Body can pretend to be the inner manifestation of an imperfect guru but ofcourse this could well be our REAL HIGHER SELF. Thus, when RS Masters talk about the Radiant Form they are really referring to your REAL HIGHER SELF which is the same as theirs ofcourse. So, the outer form of the imperfect master is only important so far that it acts as an ID, and "teacher" for experiencing the REAL inner Master which can only be found inside!!
But I suspect that if this is to be genuine there has to be a legitimate line of previous masters (one, or more of whom should be the "real thing" so to speak)....

Moreover, why "scandals" may occur could be seen as a test for the disciple, and also as means of paying off alot of karma if faith is retained..

I know the above sounds absurd, and perhaps outrageous but it does have its own kind of "rationality".

[Roger]

The "REAL HIGHER SELF" sounds like more gimicky terminology to sell a book or something.

and

" So, the outer form of the imperfect master is only important so far that it acts as an ID, and "teacher" for experiencing the REAL inner Master which can only be found inside!!"

--I fail to see any importance in this "acting" as an ID for experiencing another gimmicky inner state. Who dreams up all this BS? BS - Belief System.

[Robert Searle]

I enlose here so to speak some You Tube vids on Religare.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=religare&aq=f

[Brian Hines]

Robert, you can track Wikipedia revisions. It looks like Gurinder's demotion from guru to sevadar happened after February 2010. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gurinder_Singh&action=historysubmit&diff=361862551&oldid=342715011

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the radiant form, as the RSSB teachings describe it. This is the guru's form, not the disciple's. Sure, we all are one, in the sense that we all are made out of the same matter/energy, but this is the case with everything.

[Jen]

Robert,

I get the idea of what you are saying about the real higher self in all of us.

If as we are told in Sant Mat the radiant form of the Master is projected through the Shabd, which is the connection, or spiritual life force, which leads us to where we originally came from, this Shabd form is the link to guide us.

We are also told that we merge with this form at a certain stage and become one with it and continue on our journey.

I also like the theory that we live in a kind of holographic universe and our true spiritual self is projecting from this original source into this physical form.

I have many thoughts, many questions, and I don’t think the intellect can ever be satisfied. I see much of what I learned from Sant Mat as a kind of mythology and that’s okay, experiences are now more important.

[Robert Searle]

Brian,et al

Charan wrote,and said many times that the REAL Master is within you, and that his physical form is just a facilitator to reach it. So, the outer guru can be seen as the outward manfestation of our REAL HIGHER SELF.I always get the impression that Charan gives the idea that the inner Master is REALLY something which in a deep esoteric sense is somehow OTHER than him.

As you rightly pointed out Sant Mat at times likes to give the impression that the physical,and non-physical Master are the One,and the Same. In one sense, this is correct but I suspect the REAL inner Master is what we all have. It is our own personal God, or Higher Self,and can act separetely from us in the subtle world. It is NOT a projection of our lower self as you seem to indicate. Ofcourse, this can happen to, and can be seen as deception from our mind.

Again,I repeat the above is not a totally new concept. Faqir Chand ofcourse said the same thing,but I have expressed in my own way. Moreover, in mythologies there is the concept of the Twin Souls(one being our lower self,and the other being our Higher Self which can act as our personal God), and ofcourse, multiple subtle bodies "within" man...the highest of which is our Real Soul, connected with the "highest" Power, or PERSONAL GOD,OR HIGHER SELF.

All this ofcourse raises other questions which I shall not delve into now...

[Robert Searle]

The following link may be of interest on Faqir Chand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qygHLTkolc

[Roger]

"If as we are told in Sant Mat the radiant form of the Master is projected through the Shabd, which is the connection, or spiritual life force, which leads us to where we originally came from, this Shabd form is the link to guide us.

We are also told that we merge with this form at a certain stage and become one with it and continue on our journey."

--After this connection is re-made, where or what is the place we originally came from?
Why would there be a need to continue our journey if we have finally found where we originally came from?

[Jen]

Roger, why do you still question RS philosophy when you obviously treat it with disdain, as in, quoting you in another post: “…had some experience with a guru mentality (fuck-up)…”

So happy for you and others that you have all the answers, interesting though to find this huge lack of kindness and compassion which usually accompanies wisdom. Don’t bother to reply, I’m outa here… waste of time… adios

[tAo]

jen, you seem to be sort of flip-floppig again. previously you had indicated that you had some of your own doubts about RS.

yet now you jump on roger because he merely asked some questions. in case you don't know, roger is not a satsangi/initiate and for the most part, he only knows RS from what he has read on this blog. also, that term "fuck up" was a quote from david lane in reference to what Ken wilber once said about da free john. did you misunderstand that? roger was only referring to what ken wilber said (about da free john), not to RS.

fyi, here is exactly what was said by david lane, and then by roger:

david lane made this comment about meeting with ken wilber:

"we met in Del Mar for breakfast.... and I brought up the issue of Da Free John (this was the 1980s) to Ken, as I had in several letters. Wilber admitted that Da was a "fuck-up" (his words), but he just didn't seem to get how much of a f-up Da was to those around him."

and then roger, referring to the above comment by david lane (describing what ken wilber had said about da free john), said this:

"i'm guessing Ken had some experience with a guru mentality (fuck-up) long before Andrew Cohen came along."

so... where do you get that roger has "disdain" for RS, and where do you get that roger and other people "have all the answers", and have a "huge lack of kindness and compassion"??? i donlt see that in roger's comment at all. so you must be confused.

and then finally you say: "Don’t bother to reply, I’m outa here… waste of time". huh?? that doesn't sound like you Jen. are you like bi-polar or something? one day you say that you have doubts about RS or the RS master, and then a few days later you act irritated because roger (who is not altogether familiar with RS) asks some questions. to me thats a bit strange and and flip-floppy.

one minute you agree with those who have doubts and are skeptical of mysticism and RS... and the next minute you are annoyed and put off and criticising the skeptics. i just don't get it. so whats this all about, really?? would you mind explaining yourself a little better?

[Brian Hines]

Jen, please note the "tag line" of this blog: preaching the gospel of spiritual independence. There are no sacred cows here. If someone doesn't want their favorite religious dogma questioned, they shouldn't expect to find a lot of true believers on a churchless blog.

[Roger]

Thanks tAo,

Correct, I do not have any distain for RS. My message was a concern that Ken Wilber had an (1980s)experience with the "Da" guru person and found him such a f---up, so why would he(Ken)link up with Andrew Cohen? Andrew Cohen being another guru ego maniac.

And yes, I don't have any answers. I do like to question the various statements, as mentioned previously. Such as, "place we originally came from."

Jen, don't forget, none of this is a big deal. This is just conversation. Thanks Roger

[Roger]

I was born in Houston, TX. At age 18, I was very glad to leave Houstion(my origination) to attend college. I attended college and graduate school far from Houstion. So, there was a good reason to leave the "place" I originally came from.
However, from time to time, I do enjoy and have a need to journey back to Houston and visit with relatives.

From a supposed Spiritual point of view, maybe there is a good reason to journey away from our 'original' place.

So, maybe, it would be a mistake to use a Master (projected through the Shabd) which is the connection or spiritual life force, that would lead us to where we originally came from.

This not a disdain of any spiritual group, just a silly question. Nothing more. Thanks Roger

[Robert Searle]

Whether Gurinder is perfect, or not probably does not matter as the following reveals from Sawan Singh..

"If the Guru himself has not reached Satlok, but his Guru is perfect or, like Swami Ji Maharaj, has come straight from Anami(the Nameles Region, the highest of all), he will take his disciples up to the stage he has attained himself, and beyond that his Guru, or his Gurus Guru, or Swami Ji Maharaj Himself will take them. There should be no worry about this."

Ref With the Three Masters, by Munshi Ram page 68, 2001 edition.

[Brian Hines]

I've gotten two email messages from an initiate of Gurinder Singh that I'll share below. My basic response to this person is what I said in this post: business relationships with a guru who is considered to be God in human form, and inerrant, are considerably different than relationships with a Christian minister who isn't viewed as anything special -- other than being an inspiring preacher.

Also, I wonder what evidence this person has for claiming that Gurinder Singh donates a lot of money to RSSB (the spiritual organization that he leads). It's sort of strange that my correspondent questions some statements in this blog post and a related one that are backed up by facts, yet makes assertions that are even less verifiable.

Lastly, it's great that this person questions the RSSB "party line" that the guru is perfect, just as God is. Yet the fact remains that in the officially accepted RSSB philosophy, the guru in charge of the organization is called the "perfect living master." So if someone observes behavior or personal characteristics that don't appear to be perfect, some explaining is necessary.

Here is what my email correspondent said:

-----------------

In your post 'RSSB's ties to Religare mix money and spirituality' what proof do you have that the RSSB guru (Baba Ji) literally runs the company? That he makes all the important decisions and spends a considerable amount of time driving the business? And if he is making millions for his family and kids, is that such a big crime? In America we do that, we call it capitalism.

You've heard of Rev. Joel Osteen, I'm sure, http://www.joelosteen.com or maybe seen his weekly TV programs. He is a Christian minister, and spiritual leader from Houston, Texas. I'm sure he's very savvy when it comes to business and making money, and there's no doubt in my mind that he's a multimillionaire. I'm sure his kids are millionaires too, thanks to Joel. His books have been on the NY Times best selling author list - many times. He's rolling in money!

Why question to you is this. Does it spiritually matter that Joel Osteen is making big money for his family and kids and still running a big Church like Lakewood? I'm sure he has lots of insider trading tips from his Texan buddies and Christian associates too. That's called networking, and we all do it.

Yet, when an eastern Master like Baba Ji does the same thing, we are quick to blast him and criticize him. We think that the eastern Guru should be in sandals, simple, poor, and his family should be poor too. Why the double standards?

Anyhow, I'm sure Baba Ji and his family are giving lots of money to help run the Dera, and all the centers he has around the world. Its not cheap to run these places. I know that I stayed at the Dera for a month once and didn't have to pay a dime for the room and board.

Anyhow, waiting to hear from you. Thanks.

--------------------

You wrote "since Gurinder Singh is considered to be (1) infallible and (2) utterly un-self interested."

I know the RS books say all of that but I guest I don't consider Baba Ji as a 'God man' or God incarnate, or even infallible. I see him more like a Prophet, and a not perfect Prophet at that.

Consider the old testament prophets, they had a connection to the Divine Energy or God, but they also made lots of mistakes. Moses killed a man in anger, for example. David committed adultery, Jonah tried to run away from his mission, some prophets visited prostitutes, etc...

I think disciples put the Master on the pedestal too much! Know what I mean? But they do it because of what they read, I know. I did it too for many years. Anyhow, I prefer the word Prophet now, when I think of the Master. Take care.

[Robert Searle]

What does Brian think about Faqir Chand, and his claims...and does he understand them?

[Roger]

Brian,

Define 'Prophet' to complete your discussion. Thanks Roger

[Brian Hines]

Roger, everything under the first row of dashes was written by the person who emailed me. He/she said "prophet," not me. So I don't know what is meant by this term. I can only guess that it refers to a messenger of God/divinity, rather than a direct manifestation of God/divinity -- which seems to be how the word is used in the Old Testament and other places.

[Roger]

Thanks Brian,

The 'messenger' of God/divinity (imo) doesn't do much, as far as an improvement over the 'master' word. I would be concerned with the quality of the message. So, the 'Prophet' word isn't of much value, again imo.

[Brian Hines]

I got another email message from the correspondent mentioned above. I'm starting to feel like this communication approach is akin to observant Jews not being able to press an elevator button on the Sabbath (because that is "work") so elevators in a building with lots of Orthodox believers stop on every floor.

Followers of Radha Soami Satsang Beas aren't supposed to discuss their faith on the Internet, so I guess sending emails to a blogger is a way around that -- rather than posting a comment that would (Gasp!) go against the guru's command. And since the guru is considered to be God In Human Form, that means going against God's will.

Anyway, here's the latest missive. I'm sharing it because it's interesting. From now on, though, I won't be taking the time to post any more of his/her messages as comments.

--------------------

Thanks Brian.

I think a lot of people confuse the 'inner Master' with the 'outer Master', and it is confusing too!

As you know, the inner Master is Nam, the Word, or God in its dynamic form - and it is perfect. The outer Master is a human being who makes mistakes, just like you and me. Hopefully the mistakes are few, but other Prophets in history have made major mistakes - however the Lord chose them for whatever reason.

That's why I like the word Prophet instead of the highly exalting titles for the Guru, like 'the word made flesh' or ' the son of God' or 'the word incarnate', etc. Prophets can and do make mistakes sometimes - its a more human term. But when the Prophet is in perfect union with God or the Word, he or she does seem perfect like God. I have personally witnessed Baba Ji say things in Satsang that he couldn't have possibly know without a connection to a higher power.

And think about this: Baba Ji was a businessman in Spain before he was picked to be the Guru - an international businessman. He already had a lot of contacts and was a great businessman, I've heard - he could make money. He loved what he was doing in his business world too, but suddenly this ball and chain is dropped on him to become the SatGuru at Beas. Because of family and social pressures, he had to do it, but he didn't want to. It would be very tempting for anyone like that to want to get back into business again, even a little bit if they could - if they had half a chance to.

What if you were a teacher or professor before you got called to be SatGuru, and you loved it - it was your pride and joy. Wouldn't you be tempted to keep up with what was going on in the world of education? Wouldn't you jump back in there a little if you could? Or if you were a computer geek before being Guru, wouldn't you still want to keep up with the IT world and technology, if you got the chance to? But when Baba Ji does some business transactions, his old profession, and we are ready to burn him at the stake! We are ready to call him a fake, an infidel, and we want to shun him. This isn't very fair of us, is it? Take care.

[Roger]

This statement is interesting,

"That's why I like the word Prophet instead of the highly exalting titles for the Guru, like 'the word made flesh' or ' the son of God' or 'the word incarnate', etc. Prophets can and do make mistakes sometimes - its a more human term. But when the Prophet is in perfect union with God or the Word, he or she does seem perfect like God."

--Nothing wrong with the 'Prophet' word. That said, I wonder why 'it' is any better or more likeable than 'son of' or 'incarnate', etc. These are just words or descriptions. No big deal. This perfect union with God sounds nice, however, how does one know that? Does God think he/she is perfect? How can I engage in this perfect union? Need more details.

[Roger]

This one is amazing too,

"And think about this: Baba Ji was a businessman in Spain before he was picked to be the Guru - an international businessman. He already had a lot of contacts and was a great businessman, I've heard - he could make money. He loved what he was doing in his business world too, but suddenly this ball and chain is dropped on him to become the SatGuru at Beas. Because of family and social pressures, he had to do it, but he didn't want to."

---So, Gurinder was hit with a ball and chain and was forced into becoming SatGuru? And, he didn't want to? LOL...oh my god!!!

[tucson]

Another amazing one:

"What if you were a teacher or professor before you got called to be SatGuru, and you loved it - it was your pride and joy. Wouldn't you be tempted to keep up with what was going on in the world of education? Wouldn't you jump back in there a little if you could? Or if you were a computer geek before being Guru, wouldn't you still want to keep up with the IT world and technology, if you got the chance to? But when Baba Ji does some business transactions, his old profession, and we are ready to burn him at the stake! We are ready to call him a fake, an infidel, and we want to shun him. This isn't very fair of us, is it? Take care."

--It is amazing how satsangis rationalize inconsistencies in the guru's behavior and what he teaches.

Here we are talking about a Sat Guru who supposedly has access to the highest spiritual region (Sach Khand), the bliss of which makes this world (Pinda) seem like a latrine in comparison. Sawan Singh made that analogy. Also, RSSB teachings say unnecessary involvement with worldly concerns such as intense involvement with business transactions and making lots of money is detrimental to spiritual progress.

Why is a guru who has access to the sublime bliss of Sach Khand (heaven) in need of great amounts of money or the pursuit of wordly interests and hobbies associated with a world that is supposedly, from his perspective, a pit of shit in comparison to the exhalted region he has access to?

[tAo]

the person who sent those email messages is a stupid idiot and a cheap coward imo. and his/her points/arguments are lame.

but i am not going to bother explaining why this person is an idiot... until this person has the guts and the integrity to post a comment, just like everyone else does.

some little coward, hiding behind a veil of obscurity, is not worthy of any serious response.

[Brian Hines]

Tara, excellent comments. As the saying goes, "the truth will make you free." You've spoken the truth as you understand it, which is in accord with facts -- unlike the twisted truths my email correspondent put forth in numerous instances.

It's interesting that so-called heretics like you and me try to present the Sant Mat and Radha Soami Satsang Beas teachings as they are, rather than personalizing them to fit some individual agenda or need.

As you said, if initiates of Gurinder Singh view him as a "prophet" rather than a "satguru" who is essentially identical with God, they have a serious misunderstanding of the spiritual path they claim to follow.

[Robert Searle]

The other day Gurinder appeared at the Southall Satsang. He was wearing what appeared to be Charans turban.I am wondering whether how often he wears it? He gave namaste as he was seated on the dias, and then gave a talk in Punjabi presumably..

Interestingly, he did not give a Q and A but slipped out of one of the halls of the Southall Satsang presumably via some side entrance. People were waiting outside around the front of the Satsang building to see him give darshan but he did not materialize..so to speak!

Maybe he was racing off in his chauffer driven mercedes to see his son in London, or may be he had some business interests in Southall itself which is quite possible but unlikely as it is not exactly a very wealthy area.....

[Robert Searle]

SHARES IN RELIGARE....

I am wondering what effects these revelations about who is really behind Religare going to make to investors? This is especially true when Gurinder has been referred to as being a "crook" or words to that effect.

Ofcourse, most of the shares (if I am not mistaken) are owned by Gurinder, and his two sons, and presumably the rest by relatives, and Satsangis.

But there must be, or will be people presumably investing in them from outside the world of Sant Mat, and Surat Shabd Yoga? What are they going to think when they read this stuff on the blog? They might have second thoughts in investing but that is unlikely if Religare is doing well ofcourse.

Many high flying business people are probably crooks for how else could they have reached such dizzying financial heights??

[Roger]

Tara,

How does one know that a particular person is wearing another's tuban? Does Charan's turban have any special markings?
Thanks Roger

[Nietzsche]

I thinking it didn't fit :) lol

[Robert Searle]

The followising comes from the Secret History Site on RSSB..

Did you know many RS gurus may be millionaires claiming to live off their own earnings and will not provide financial statements to the public for their non profit organizations, nor disclose the salaries they receive ? Why have all the major Radhasoami Gurus read this site and why are they unable to answer the major problems of theology and history contained herein ?

The question is how true are the above claims?

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

[Robert Searle]

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE RADHASOAMI INVALIDATION SITE?

Radhasoami Invalidation : Invalidation arguments for RS-Beas Group based in Beas, India. Based upon information from personal experiences covering over twelve years and on research data provided by David Lane through his web page THE NEURAL SURFER and personal communications with him, I have re-evaluated the claims, practices and activities of RS-Beas and now feel that there exists significant evidence to conclude that the group does not represent a legitimate spiritual path as it claims to do in its many books.
For the benefit of researchers of spiritual groups and other interested parties, I have outlined here the basic points that I considered in arriving at this conclusion. I trust the data will be useful.

Ref link http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/links.htm

One of the claims made by the above site was there was a certain amount of smuggling going....and that the various Satsang Centres acted as a cover for spies! The last claims seems a little dubious but who knows??

[Rose]

Robert,

The site moved: http://rssbdata.i8.com/

[J Nisarga]

Surprised no one has mentioned lightening strike, direct hit, on Babaji's house at Haynes Park, Bedford, July 14th when he & family in residence. Over 25 firefighters called, roof ablaze & extensive damage to first floor. Story now circulating in local UK Sangat, that this was just another example of Babaji taking on Satsangis' karmas. Alternative might be, that the Lord moves in mysterious ways to indicate a certain displeasure.
PS: dealings of Religare/Fortis appear to follow path of expanding global Sangat, would this explain focus on Chinese contingent this last few years, what with China being the new emergent market?

[tAo]

lightn'ins a strikin? ohhh yeahhh!

... well you can't say that i didn't give y'all some advance warning about this sort of thing awile back.

and as the power of the now impending apocalyse continues to intensify and reveal, its going to get a whole lot hell of a lot more uncomfortable (and dangerous) for these false gods and corrupt evildoers.

and as their masks (and turbans) come off, and their (false) power crumbles, and their rotten asses roast in the cosmic fire... think of it all as poignant object lessons.

you know its been a long time a'comin, and this is only the beginning. so grasshoppers, you'd best be fastenin yo seat belts and gettin down off those high horses and plastic jesus'.

The Crystal Ship - by The Doors

Before you slip into unconsciousness
I'd like to have another kiss
Another flashing chance at bliss
Another kiss, another kiss

The days are bright and filled with pain
Enclose me in your gentle rain
The time you ran was too insane
We'll meet again, we'll meet again

Oh tell me where your freedom lies
The streets are fields that never die
Deliver me from reasons why
You'd rather cry, I'd rather fly

The Crystal Ship is being filled
A thousand girls, a thousand thrills
A million ways to spend your time
When we get back, I'll drop a line