There's no "Perfect living master" or "God man"

Most religions believe that it's possible for a perfect human being to walk the Earth who is intimately connected with divinity, if not identical with it. (Almost always they're male, so this is why I said God man in the title to this post.)

As noted in a previous post, there are numerous candidates for this supremely elevated GIHF (god in human form) position.

As some Vedanta folks point out, there are quite a few historical contenders for a GIHF appellation. Jesus, Buddha, Rama, Krishna, Moses, Muhammad, Chaitanya, Ramakrishna are cited, though some of these names are questionable candidates. (Buddha didn't teach there was a God, and I don't think many Christians recognize Moses as God in human form.)

Problem is, there's no evidence that a perfect living master, which is how guru-based faiths often refer to a God man, has ever existed.

So just as it is reasonable to say "There's no one-eyed, one-horned flying purple people eater" (remembering this song shows how old I am), it's also reasonable to say "There's no perfect living master or God man."

If anyone disagrees with me, state your reasons in a comment.

Just make them convincing. You're going to need to define "perfect" and "god" for starters, so we can compare the attributes of a GIHF candidate with the characteristics of a supposed ultimate divinity.

As noted in "God-man or Asshole? The guru conundrum," true believers often try to wriggle out of the lack of evidence for human perfection by claiming that imperfection is a sign of it.

Meaning, if God was obviously manifest in a person, everyone would accept his (or her) divinity instantly, no faith or effort required. Since God doesn't want things to be this easy for humanity -- don't ask why -- perfect living masters/God men keep themselves hidden.

Well, it could also be argued that so do one-eyed, one-horned flying purple people eaters. Along with fairies, leprechauns, goblins, and angels. And anything else that the human mind can imagine, but doesn't exist in reality.

Ah, another term that needs defining: reality. 

It's often said that beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. Most people, including me, would agree. I've learned to always say "Oh, so cute!" when someone shows me a baby (or puppy) photo.

That may not be my honest reaction, but I understand that to a new parent or dog owner their precious little bundle of wonderfulness is unalloyed perfection -- at least until the kid starts saying "No!" or the puppy chews up the couch.

So I also understand that devotees of a supposed God man, living or dead, view him as ideal in much (or exactly) the same way a lover says to his beloved, "Honey, you're so perfect for me!"

But this is much different from saying that someone is more than human, possessing transcendent divine qualities that, for one reason or another, aren't obvious.

I've visited this subject before in some blog posts other than those mentioned above:
If a satguru isn't God, what is he?
Who is the guru?
Top ten signs you're a fundamentalist satsangi

I keep returning to it for several reasons.

One is that a belief in someone's divine perfection forms the foundation of rigid religious dogmatism. The Bible, Koran, Adi Granth, or other holy writing can't be challenged because its human source supposedly was error-free.

Another is more personal: for over thirty years I diligently adhered to meditative and other practices enjoined by a "perfect living master," Charan Singh. He set himself forth as possessing extraordinary capabilities, including but not limited to...

-- Existing in various ethereal forms (astral, causal, spiritual) in addition to the physical
-- Placing his "radiant form" within the psyche of each disciple at the time of initiation
-- Being able to know what was happening in the lives of disciples, and even changing their destiny (karma) at times
-- Guiding the disciple through higher regions of reality and communicating with him or her throughout the process

There are many other purported God men who make, or have made, other sorts of claims (see here, here, and here). These are mostly examples from the "Eastern" side of religion and mysticism; the "Western" side has its own GIHF candidates.

If reality has any meaning beyond the utterly subjective ("truth is in the eye of the beholder"), some or all of these guys aren't who they claim to be: God.

I've come to the conclusion that all is the word of choice in the preceding sentence. Again, if someone likes some, argue your case. Explain how it's possible to tell the difference between a "perfect" and "imperfect" master.

And answer a more basic question: What is the demonstrable evidence that any human has achieved perfection or godliness?

Comments

[tAo]

its pretty darn ridiculous, isn't it??

...that these so-called 'perfect masters', or 'god in human form' (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean!), can't even show one single tiny indication that they possess any godly or miraculous powers (omniscience/all-knowing, omnipotence/all-powereful, and omnipresence/present everywhere, etc) whatsoever, and/or that they posses absolute perfection in all virtues, or that they have any power over life and death - such as bringing the dead back to life or being immortal themselves.

in fact they cannot even show one single indication of having any difference different or superiority to other mortal and average human beings.

every single one of these humans, these claimed so-called 'perfect masters', throughout all of history, have had all the same limitations as everyone else: they cannot live without breathing, they cannot live without sufficient food and water, they must urinate & defecate, they must sleep, and they cannot remain alive in conditions of extreme cold or extreme heat.

yet amazingly, they and their irrational followers maintain that these individuals are absolutely perfect, divine, and that they possess superhuman powers, knowledge, and virtue.

its absurd to the extreme. and so believing or not believing this sort of thing is a clear indication of whether or not a person is sober and sane or delusional.

to believe that another human being is actually "god" incarnate and/or superhuman, without a shred of evidence, is to live in utter fantasy, denial and delusion. this is a form of mental illness. everyone can clearly see that... except those who have this mental illness.

however, there is no doubt that there have existed human beings who have possessed an extraordinary degree of nobel and virtuous qualities, or intelligence, or wisdom, or strength, or saintliness. but that does not make them 'gods' or superhumans.

[Jeremy]

hear hear Tao :-)

[Blogger Brian]

tAo, excellent points. I keep coming back to my "lineup" argument. Put a supposed perfect living master or God man in a lineup with a bunch of other imperfect living masters or not-God men. How would it be possible to choose the GIHF (god in human form)?

What unique characteristics or qualities would this person have? Would questions could be asked of them that would show they're divine?

If there's no way to tell a perfect living master from another imperfect human being, then the notion of God come down to earth is just a fantasy. People are free to believe in it, but that doesn't make it true.

Like you said, people come in different varieties. However, there's no evidence that these differences stem from any supernatural influences.

[Roger]

Brian,

How would we define or describe the GOD that would come into human form? Where would the foundation of scientific evidence rest upon?

Development of a scientific Theory of God in human form would need some beginning god-data.

[Blogger Brian]

Roger, exactly. People speak of "God" or "God man" very loosely. This allows the term to mean whatever they want it to mean.

For example, as I noted in this post God often is viewed as wanting to keep himself hidden, so this is why miracles aren't evident. Yet God also wants to be known, so this is why he incarnates as Jesus, Krishna, a guru, or whoever.

Thus believers can have it both ways.

Similarly, if someone dies in a catastrophe like the Haiti earthquake, this is seen as God's will. If someone is "miraculously" saved, this also is seen as God's will. Thus whatever happens is God's will, which is exactly the same as saying "whatever happens, happens." Or, "what is, is."

To believe in God, or God in human form, this word "God" needs to mean something beyond what is already observed in the natural world and understood by science. Since this is lacking, it makes sense to be deeply skeptical of God-claims.

[tucson]

I am a god-man, you are a god-man, we are god-men altogether, but only when we are not self-identified as such...only when we are not self-identified at all.

Actually this is the natural state we are most often immersed in throughout the day. Most of the time we aren't thinking of ourselves as "I". We are just doing, living, doctoring, lawyering, sweeping, running, etc.

It all just manifests in mind, as mind, on its own. It sort of just percolates out of nowhere. The illusion comes in when we objectify this doing/happening as "I" am doctoring, "I" am running, "I" am sweeping, etc. This 'I'dentification traps us in a cocoon of misperception.

Liberation or enlightenment is the active, intuitive recognition of living, of being with the "I" absent. That is the paradox. You are being but 'you' aren't.

You can't think yourself out of "I". It is not a reasoning process. It just happens. It is happening. Now.

[David]

I suppose another question could be, do these supposed GIHF have karma? If they have karma how can they be God? What does BEAS say about this?

Brian, on another note, i'm just interested to hear if you have ever had hypnagogic phenomena while meditating. That would be auditory or even visual "hallucinations"? Have you ever had an OOBE?

[Juan]

David wrote;I suppose another question could be, do these supposed GIHF have karma? If they have karma how can they be God? What does BEAS say about this?

Maharaj Charan Singh used to say that there cannot be a physical body without karmas, and the saints have also to go through the karmas but a big portion of the karmas they take on themselves is of their disciples and further they are not affected by these karmas.They can pay these karmas in a second, because they control the karmas, the karmas are under them,they are not the victims of karmas, nor they are slaves of the karmas.They take the karmas of their disciples because they are soft and kind hearted.

Whereas Gurinder Singh says (as far as I know)that we should not indulge in all these unnecessary discussions and put our full attention and time to meditation.

They can be God by the mercy of their Master, who makes them their own form(Roop) before he leaves his physical body. This is the version of Beas.

[David]

Thanks Juan.

So it seems that BEAS and Gurinder teach different things then. I have read about 3 BEAS books in my life all by Charan Singh, and "spiritual gems" which is free online. I never got much into the esoterics of it all as i was searching for info about the so-called third eye mainly. It is clear to me that these Radha Soami gurus teach things that most yogis do not, about karma and especially their GIHF, which seems to be a somewhat different rendering of the "avatar" concept.

For example, Paramahansa Yogananda taught that Krishna was an avatar but he also taught that God never ever incarnates as a human being directly since that would entail His being limited. Now, i don't find much of this stuff very plausible but it does give a different view with comparison to Radha-Soami.

Would i be correct in assuming that Gurinder is different to his predecessors because of the advent of the internet? It seems plausible to me. This technology wasn't around even in 1995 really, well, not like it is today. I suspect there is a lot less this Gurinder can get away with now. That's why he steers clear of questions that are controversial and instructs to meditate instead.

Just a thought i had about karmas in general. I've read about the taking on of karma by gurus before and it struck me as pretty ridiculous since the guru is one with God. We all know about healings that take place in places such as Lourdes, which the healed say comes from God. If God can heal directly at holy places or even to people without an intermediary like a guru, and the healing is magically instantaneous, except when the guru takes on the karma they have to "work it out" on their own bodies first - do you see the contradiction?

One analogy i am aware of is that the guru who takes on the karma of a disciple is akin to a father lending his son some money. ie it is not totally necessary but just a kind of favor!!

I remember reading about this idea that if you happen to find a GIHF you have been selected specially by God. If this is the case, whence does the idea of karmic merit come into it at all? You know there were probably lots of people who discovered Radha-Soami and went to get initiated but nothing special happened for them at that time and they were probably told God hadn't specially chosen them. If this is true, how come the guru himself didn't know this beforehand? What is the point of initiating someone whom the guru knows is not chosen for it in the first place? crazy.

Speaking of initiation and seeing lights etc, notwithstanding David Lane's writings on this, it seems obvious to me that the kind of people that attend these "satsangs" are probably highly suggestible types, probably quite young at the time and so on. I can well imagine, though i have never attended any satsang in my life, due to seeing such gatherings on Youtube, that the guru, by his words and looks, can hypnotise people quite easily. These kind of meetings seem to be highly charged by a kind of adoration of the guru, who is a sleek speaker, along with respectable questions. The disciples do not want to step on the gurus toes, so to speak, so they try to avoid asking controversial questions. I don't know if the kind of people that see light or hear sounds at initiation are gullible types necessarily, since these effects could be due to the make up of the brain of such persons also. If we consider that probably most of the population of the world is suggestable to one degree or another, then these phenomena make a lot more sense. Plus, i can well imagine that sitting in a room with a guru who has instructed you months in advance to alter your diet and other instructions, plus dark lighting in the room, can kind of "prep" people to have those experiences.

[David]

Sorry for the long paragraphs there :)

[Blogger Brian]

David, no, I've never had an experience in meditation that struck me as absolutely "mystical." Meaning, beyond the physical, unexplainable in natural terms. Strange stuff can happen in meditation. But strange stuff also happens in a sensory deprivation tank.

[Roger]

Tucson,

Liked your comment. The 'I'dentification was KOOL.

[David]

Ok Brian, i didn't want to derail this topic deliberately. Anyhow, it is interesting you compare meditation to a sensory deprivation tank in terms of experiences. I am sure you have experienced auditory and visual things in meditation - and i don't mean the light and sound that the gurus speak of either.

OK Brian, one more thing. You may have had an OOBE though right? which you found no mystical explanation for - that is, it was perfectly explanable in normal ways?

Susan Blackmore said that people who imagine themselves usually from a bird's eye view tend to have more OOBE's than those that don't. I thought that was interesting. I don't imagine myself from a B.E. view personally - it tends to be from my own eyes looking out, just like in my dreams.

[Pythagoras]

Nice topic. Some one has spoken the obvious:
Religions and Ceremonial/Typical vehicles are the means not the purpose. Our purpose is to find ourselves and the hidden mystery. All these perfect master falacy must end. The attention of many people is directed - and this is designed in the Guru worship systems) at a mortal being, the "master" instead of going inwards. Lost energy. Worshipping is religion and church. And it sucks.

"An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave."

"Nobody sees the obvious, nobody observes the ordinary. There are more miracles in a square yard of earth than in all the fables of the Church"

"I think the world has had too many perfect masters, and popes, and mahatmas, and other such pretenders. Finding a perfect master is ideal only if your desire is to become a perfect slave." -Robert Anton Wilson

[MDave]

Before I met the master ( Gurinder singh) I had searched for God in many religions and found a desire to become a "perfect living master". but perfection is not a state,it is a process, so, if something is perfect than any change will disturb that "perfect state"", therefore, a PLM is a person that is closer to that state than others and as a master teaches the "path". I teach wisdom and integrity through telling the truth, keeping promises, and only speaking what is kind, true, and necessary, I am sure that this is where the path can begin.

""there are many however, there is no doubt that there have existed human beings who have possessed an extraordinary degree of nobel and virtuous qualities, or intelligence, or wisdom, or strength, or saintliness. but that does not make them 'gods' or superhumans.""

So you are correct, but I suggest that you meditate. Read the books and attend satsang. Your perfection is a process, it involves paying karma. I will be glad to help any true seeker. -Mdave

[navi]

hahahaha ur state is like a innocent peagon who watchs cat and close his eyes and think as i cant see the cat ..simarly cat cant see him and lost his life :P :P//...if u put ur hand in the fire it will BURN..WEATHER YOU U WILL AGREE OF DISAGREE..it will burn..

who cares if you dont agree that there is a perfect living master...

if i have a some eatable item...no body knows its sweet or bitter...if i tasted that eatable i knw it is sweet and i can say "YES IT IS SWEET WITH FULL CONFIDENCE" i dont care of the rest world who say its bitter.. i knw because i tasted it.. u dont tasted it thats y you dont knw..it ws ur bad luck :P :P ...

[Moongoes]

Navi Yes you ate eatable item but no master did you taste, you are still trying to buy the story; that
is why you are convincing here yourself through others, and it is clearly seen from your post that you don't have a clue what you are talking about but just repeating what you read and heard.

MDave with the whole your post i find confusion, try read Balsekars Confusion no more and maybe than you'll understand your path better.

[navi]

Navi Yes you ate eatable item but no master did you taste, you are still trying to buy the story; that

reply:

i thought you will understand with this example...but i doent seems. :P :P
if u wana go some un-known path its better to take guide or somthing else which helps you for that path...is it or not???

by watching your post heading i really felt its childish practice :P :P

[navi]

i dont heard or read there thing from any one..its all my personal thoughts and experience ...

ur practice is like .. I DONT NEED ANY BOOK OR ANY TEACHER TO BECOME A DOCTOR or ENGG....is it look childish... GROW UP BUDYY..come out of your little world...

same way you need teacher at each step... your father teachd you how to walk..
u learnt speaking from you family and other member ...
graduation from ur collage there also,some buddy is there for you to teach you...mean at each step of your life there is some one to teach you...

and you thing this lesson of life you can learn you self as you are grown up.. u dont even know what will happen 2morrow ...

as you enter your own body ..then you will realize that there is need of some friend,father,helper,guide where to go...

[Blogger Brian]

Navi, you do realize that almost everybody in the world gets through life just fine without an official "guru," don't you? The fact that we need parents to be born, and teachers to get through school, doesn't mean that we need a guru to get through life.

People also need drill instructors to get through basic training in the army. And they need an expert plumber if they want to get through an apprenticeship in plumbing. But these people only are needed to learn certain skills. What skill does a guru teach, which can't be learned elsewhere?

[navi]

@brain

That he teaches you is all about you inner.. like when u will go inside how ..or open you third eye then what to do???

where to go?
ask from the person who walked on this path.. here we need guru ...which sound i have to catch, there are lots of sounds coming continously inside you but which is right one???

how you will solve the maze inside... ???

you posted this txt..

What unique characteristics or qualities would this person have? Would questions could be asked of them that would show they're divine?

If there's no way to tell a perfect living master from another imperfect human being, then the notion of God come down to earth is just a fantasy. People are free to believe in it, but that doesn't make it true.

reply-
if he start showing his power then we people say this tough task of medititaion we cant do..he only (GIHM) can do this because he have powers...
if he dont do this jst to put an example for as and motivate us ...LOOK i also did this ..you can also do this...

you posted-
Navi, you do realize that almost everybody in the world gets through life just fine without an official "guru," don't you?

its not about the life ...we are spirtual beings having human experience...

life will goes on where a person is terrorist or a father of church...
but what happen after life????

world say...see with open eyes
saint say: see with closed eyes (again they talked about inner)

world say: talk with open mouth
saint say: talk with closed mouth

world say: hear with open ears
saint say: hear with closed ears (sound that are coming inside)

world say: learn how to live
saint say: learn how ti DIE

i remember some qotation of bible.

DIE before you die
saint paul : i die daily

they are not mad.. you think why there said these things ...
eastern saint also said the same thing...

there is big difference (die) that they are talking about... this the SKILL that GURU TEACHES us..

[Moongoes]

Navi you don't know what you are talking about. You don't even ask if i have a teacher you just end up with your conclusion and than start judging and pointing finger, you are just blurring in your own world and giving the advices which you don't even know if others need them. And please stop with the aggression you don't need it. Cause forcing own opinion to others is aggression.If you have teacher or if you believe in anything is just fine with me but as soon as you start forcing that on me i have a freedom and personal right to come out with my own opinion.

quote Navi: as you enter your own body ..then you will realize that there is need of some friend,father,helper,guide where to go...

Moon: Btw, i entered my body when i was conceived.

[Moongoes]

Navi enjoy this ittle peace of music and try to understand that there are people in this world who thinks differently than you and they do just fine just try to accept that and we will be very good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoN6XfyQsr4

[navi]

@moongoes exactly ...read your line again..there are people who think different...if this word 'GIHF' is made then the thing existed in past, present or future so we cant say there is no GIHF. i was keep on talking in above post jst to make you understand that you also said there is no GIHF without understanding to which thing you are talking about, dear there are some things you may not aware and also there are some things which i dont know... explore more on GIHF.

[Moongoes]

And how do you think we did not explore?

[navi]

i did not said you did not explored ...i said explore more.. :) :)

[Juan]

explore more.. :) :) ---maximum for 4 lifes, but one will not get any results without the grace of Almighty Babaji Gurinder Singh.

[G]

A bunch of faith-less idiots pretending to know it all.

Living sad miserable lives and will continue to do so. You idiots should use your intellect for something useful. A single atom is irrelevant in the larger scheme.

Church of the Faith-less Miserable Idiots.

Best Regards