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November 10, 2009


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Dear Brian,

The above "central specialness reasons" are only to encourage one for sitting on meditation regularly. But the special feeling of being on the path is something different. It is with everyone before applying for initiation. Otherwise one does not apply for initiation at all.

But this fever of so called love for the master vanishes soon in some people and after several years in others.

Rare are the people who sustain it throughout their life and retain it in bossom till they breath last. People do not normally express it so openly as you do. Some people remain on the path as a mark of so called respect for the master and others only out of social parlance.

Every diamond can not be a Kohinoor.

with love,

The above "central specialness reasons" are only to encourage one for sitting on meditation regularly.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

As having been a satsangi for nearly 25 years, I'd have to disagree. I know exactly what Brian is talking about - and for me, being a "marked soul" was a significant source of "spiritual ego" - big time!


rakesh bhasin,

why should there be "love for the master"? why?

why should people feel love for no reason, without a meaning?

why should people love some individual that they have never got to know personally?

why this need for love of a stranger, or an idea?

it is unatural.

also, why should anyone "sustain it throughout their life"? for what reason?

why "retain it in bossom" until death?
why should they?

to do that is senseless and irrational, so it is only right that those who do, are few and "rare".

the love you speak of is not really love. it is artificial and contrived. it is false. so your words about it are hollow and empty.

Love and devotion to the Sant Sat Guru is a gift from Him...it is impossible for the mind to have love and devotion for anything except material pleasures and worldly attachments. The spark of yearning is gifted by Guru, its fuel and continued enhancement is a gift from Guru and the eventual merging with Shabd is from Guru's kindness, alone. One who is a sincere and readied soul would receive this supreme gift. And, yes, this is only known to the Master...the devotee knows nothing except that he/she has been taken in the Guru's refuge.

Dear Bob & Eru,

You have every right to dismiss me by saying that my words are false, empty and hollow etc. How can I transfer the sweetness of a candy? I can always transfer the candy.

In my discussion note, I have my full sincerity. My aim is not to make a goody goody statement to appease people. It is an observation and feeling that I have attempted to put forth, related to the subject.

I have nothing to elaborate on the matter.

Dear Albert,

I am delighted to read your words on this blog. To add a bit :

Guru Granth sahib.
"No body can be compared with Guru, I have searched the universe. Guru has initiated you and now you look for the bliss inside."

With regards to one & all,

albert, are you really saying that love for anything other than a "satguru" (true guru) is somehow defective, illusory, or less than ideal?

That's crazy, if you're claiming that someone's love for a child, spouse, parent, pet, or anything else is less genuine, selfless, and true than a disciple's love for his or her guru.

A guru is a physical being. The love is for a physical form just as much as the love of other living beings is. What makes you think that a disciple's love for a guru isn't a physical attachment, or a material pleasure?

This latest RS revelation of a chosen few, seems very strange.

why should some souls be marked and others not? i suppose, one could also ask why are some ppl bad and others not, but this idea of heaven being only open to a chosen few, seems very unfair apart from anything else.


It does seem strikingly like orthodox judaism and a sense of a chosen people.

surely ppl are ppl. why would some be chosen and others not? does it make any difference whether those chosen or marked are good or wicked?

there seems to be no basis for being chosen other than a religious one.

it's funny yet sad how these believers think that their narrow-minded beliefs are the one and the only way, as if their religious beliefs are somehow written in stone, as if anything other than what they say and believe is wrong.

yes, as George mentioned, it is quite disturbing to witness this sort of mentality. its fundamentally the same kind of sick mentality that terrorizes and kills other people for not believing, for not agreeing with such beliefs.

"Love and devotion to the Sant Sat Guru is a gift from Him"

...but that is only YOUR own belief albert.

"it is impossible for the mind to have love and devotion for anything except material pleasures and worldly attachments."

...again, that is only YOUR own narrow-minded belief, and it is clearly wrong because humans do in fact have love for more than just the "material and worldly".

"The spark of yearning is gifted by Guru, its fuel and continued enhancement is a gift from Guru"

...that is only YOUR own limited belief.

"the eventual merging with Shabd is from Guru's kindness, alone."

...that is only YOUR own idea and associated belief.

"One who is a sincere and readied soul would receive this supreme gift."

...that is only what YOU believe. it is not necessarily so.

"this is only known to the Master...the devotee knows nothing except that he/she has been taken in the Guru's refuge."

...this is, again, YOUR own limiting and narrow-minded belief. you have backed yourself into a very narrow corner and mentality. it's painful and disturbing to see people like yourself, doing this to yourself.

"How can I transfer the sweetness of a candy? I can always transfer the candy."

...what are you trying to say? you don't make much sense here. why do you feel that you must "transfer the sweetness of a candy"? why? sweetness is only in the tounge of the beholder. what is sweet to one, is sour to another. your own personal beliefs do not apply to other people. so why are you trying to make them apply to others? why do you have this desire to make others believe as you do?

"I have my full sincerity. My aim is not to make a goody goody statement to appease people."

...then why do you feel that others should or must share in your beliefs?

"It is an observation and feeling that I have attempted to put forth"

...that is only your belief(s) that you put forth.

"I have nothing to elaborate on the matter."

...then why do you even bother to bring it up?

"No body can be compared with Guru, I have searched the universe. Guru has initiated you and now you look for the bliss inside."

...this is just more of the same, more of your own beliefs. it is your belief in gurus. your belief that "Guru" is better than other people. your belief in this "initiated". your belief in "bliss". your belief in "inside". these are all nothing more than ideas and beliefs.

George is correct IMO in his observations above about "marked" souls.

There was an RS children's book with a picture of golden drops (representing souls) going down a staircase from heaven. Some of the drops had little X's on them and had smiles while the other drops without X's had frowns and tears. The implication was that the X'ed drops were happy because they knew they could go and fool around in the creation in many forms and lifetimes knowing that eventually the lord would call them back. But the poor drops without X's were doomed to an eternity of banishment from heaven. What the hell did they do wrong?

This is a very bizarre and sick thing to teach small children and a very childish and naive thing for adults to believe in.

I once was one of those adults and I am astonished that I ever bought into that crap.

Knowing I am capable of being so incredibly lame, I wonder what illusions I am under now that will seem stupendously foolish in 20 or so years, if I last that long?

There just isn't enough time to get rid of all the foolishness that 'I' come up with.

Maybe 'I' is the problem?

You are right Kanab, That book is written to condition the minds of young souls. When my niece was born, so many satsangis gave us the same book and also recommended reading the book to the newborn so that she can imbibe the idea!! Though we have trashed most of those books (no I deliberately didn't give it to library), but I have saved one of them as a proof. You never know, to save themselves from being a cult, they might take that book out of publication and then will say they never said that :)

Knowing I am capable of being so incredibly lame,

THAT ! insite is the only thing I call progress

Amen Brother...LOL

Dear Eru,
Kindly read my words with an intent to put forth your own belief and understanding on the subject. That will make my understanding clear. In a healthy discussion, the other (negative) obvious side of one's statement contributes nothing.
I may clarify that following is translation of a verse in religious book called Guru Granth Sahib:
"No body can be compared with Guru, I have searched the universe. Guru has initiated you and now you look for the bliss inside."

with regards,

rakesh, i have already read your words, and i have already put forth my questions in response.

yet you have not answered and you have contributed nothing. and as far as that goes, you must make your own understanding clear. its not for me to do that.

also, i don't care one iota about your religious book called Guru Granth Sahib. why should i? as i said, those are all your beliefs, they are not mine.

[Comment deleted, along with several others. Mia, here's some advice: (1) Using ALL CAPS almost guarantees a comment will be deleted. (2) Ditto with insulting me and this blog.

Discuss issues, not personalities. Keep the hatred and insults to a minimum. And don't preach. Lastly, if this blog bothers you, go elsewhere. Pretty simple]

"i can't identify who are you?"

i am 1%, aka none of your business.

"you people are sick you proved it
thats the reason american is losing their power wealth health"

my superior esp tells me that another deletion of an ANTI-AMERICAN comment is coming.

"because of people like you
people who are selfish coward and cunning like you are destroying ameirca."

its funny how some foreign fools and idiots, who know less than nothing about the united states of america, like to criticise the american people. i can just feel that annoyed finger moving towards the delete button.

"show your faces you coward people
1% if possible identify urself."

i'm just your average 1%er. and any more than that, well trust me, you really don't want to know.

Except for those few people that spend lots and losts of time in physical proximity to a guru, "love" for that guru is as delusional as my love for Gwen Stefani.

They're loser stalkers with no life or thinking power of their own, no self confidence, and no true self-esteem.

"The reasons are evident in the voluminous Radha Soami Satsang Beas literature, which I'm well acquainted with."

Your first point is incorrect, it not one-tenth, but actually one-ninth.

Come on Brian, to be so well acquainted with the facts ...

dude, are you out to lunch, or what? who gives a damn about one ninth versus one tenth? only fools quibble over such absurdly trivial nonsense. these are not "facts" that you speak of, they are ridiculously insignificant philosophical abstractions. they have no basis in proveable reality. you are absolutley friggin nuts if you think one ninth is any more accurate or meaningful than one tenth. neither are scientific facts, and both are mere made-up metaphysical beliefs.

wake-up out of your insane eastern religion dreamland dude.

Charles, perhaps you could supply a reference for where the 1/9 figure is cited in the RSSB literature. I remembered 1/10. This person says 1/9 or 1/10:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg128757.html

Anyway, as the previous commenter said, who cares whether it is 1/9 or 1/10?

The definitive RSSB book that deals with this subject is "The Journey of the Soul." The most recent edition says, "But there were a very few of the little souls that did not want to go at all. They wanted to stay home with their Lord."

"Very few" is less precise than either 1/9 or 1/10. I also note that the book says that while the "marked souls" would be sent for by God, "He told all the other souls that if they ever decided they wanted to come back Home again, He would mark them too. One day, through God's boundless Grace, He would help them come home too."

Of course, "marking" means you would end up being initiated by a perfect living guru. So if this hasn't happened to someone, they're not going back to God.

Charles, FYI,In a book The Master Answers, by Maharaj Charan Singh,published by RSSB in 1966, the answer to a Q. no. 310 in the chapter The Why of Creation is, THE ONE TENTH ARE THE MARKED SOULS FOR WHICH THE MASTERS COME,TO TAKE THEM BACK TO THE LORD. THEY ARE KNOWN AS MARKED SOULS.

"Of course, I don't believe this any more. Which is refreshing."

Why worry your head over these things, if you don't believe you can safely say it won't happen ...

Juan, thanks for the reference. It's nice to know that my memory was correct.

Charles, I missed your apology for wrongly calling me wrong. Or are you planning to send me a gift basket instead? If so, thanks in advance.

lol, what cheap thrills!

So all you have proved is that you can remember a sentence in a book. Congratulations.

BTW: my reference checked out too

Enjoy you thrills ...

Charles Atlas- classic example of bad narcissism: I am without faults, everything I say is flawless. Somebody shows me that I am wrong - I blame him for dwelling on pointless things ( that were actually started by me while others thought they really are pointless ).

Darn. Looks like I won't be getting a gift basket. I do get a thrill out of being right, Charles. Thank you for giving me that, at least.

The 1/9 may have been confused(typo) for 9/10. The 1/10 marked souls and the remaining 9/10 that have no markings.

"One day, through God's boundless Grace, He would help them come home too."-Too, as in Also; I wonder what that means?

Shoeless, I took it to mean that even though the marked souls who were unwilling to leave God before they got kicked out of "heaven" get first priority in returning Home, the souls who were happy to head to the physical universe also get a return ticket back to God if they have a strong urge to do so.

Albert Einstein's view on 'God' and 'chosen' ppl:

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."


clever man was albert.


Good post.

(imo)1/10 are the marked souls who will finally go back does not mean that 1/10 of the number of human beings on the earth.

Who knows how many souls are there in this universe? But definetly, it is equal to the number of living beings in this universe.

But Rakesh, why would some souls be marked and others not?

Surely a loving forgiving God loves ALL his creations?

The 1/10th that will be returning will stretch into infinity. Maybe the souls who continue to sincerely search for oneness are marked in future lives and souls will continue to be marked ad infinitum.

For this theory to work one has to believe, or accept the possibility of, reincarnation (transmigration of the soul) and the law of karma.

Your question is quite valid. At first palce, I do not know the answer. But answer to Why & How, will not make any difference at least to me. Any answer to it will lead to another question and so on...........

In santmat, one has to be self centered and not selfish. Sometimes I surpass my limit of being self centered and involve in unnecessary discussion.

I do not know how relevant am I with all this at the moment.


"For this theory to work one has to believe, or accept the possibility of, reincarnation (transmigration of the soul) and the law of karma."

--Nothing wrong with reincarnation, or the law of karma, however it would be nice if a theory would work independent of belief, non-belief and acceptance of possibilities.

"Nothing wrong with reincarnation, or the law of karma, however it would be nice if a theory would work independent of belief, non-belief and acceptance of possibilities."

--Reincarnation and the law of karma may be the very driving force of our existence in this physical creation… how to prove it though… I don’t think the intellect can handle it, has to be some sort of inner experience. Just like how to prove the existence of the inner spiritual regions… will have to be through experience.

I went to surry satsang with my family to see baba ji and I drove to petaluma california after that . I attended all 6 satsang . My 12 year old son start complaining about very loud bell sound in his forehead and in his ears . Bell sound start everytime when baba ji enter satsang and sound (shabad) stop when he leave after satsang . Its happen all 6 satsang .
when i was driving back to seattle , my 12 year old son said Papa i dont care about 2012 anymore . I dont care if i die today I received his grace in full and he cried .
I been initiated for 16 years and never heared shabad . Reason i did not hear because i do not deserve it at all . I have ego problem this is why baba ji kept it away from me . Many complaining here that why they never heared shabad just sit and think , do you really deserve it . Master know when to give and take and hold .

yes seeker

these that talk till cows come home still question hence cannot hear

your son far more advanced than all these big ego's prancing around cyberspace still not knowing who they are or where they belong

long time coming - long time gone

oh what utter bollocks.

To avoid any confusion, that last comment of mine was aimed at the previous 2 comments. Good god, i;ve never heard such indoctrinated nonsense and actually i feel sorry for your son. Seeker you seem like a nice oke, but what the hell is going on if your son is hearing bells....?

I would very much like to hear your more rational views on RS. You are one of the few who admits when there is a problem of explanation and is honest with himself.

I cannot however understand how a clearly rational and intelligent man can believe some of this theology, and that is what it is, i mean GIHF, 7 astral planes, marked souls...there;s alot of very odd stuff here.


OK, your son heard the bell sound.
Great. I saw the magnificent Sonoran desert radiant at sunset after a rainstorm. The colors and light contrasts, the purple and red mountains, the orange and gold clouds, the green saguaros standing tall and stately in a chorus of wind and birds, the fragrance as the earth welcomes the moisture, a cottontail scurries by as the coyote yelps and a bobcat slinks among the cholla and ocotillo. Incredible. Gorgeous. Such grace to be alive, to witness and be a part of this splendor.

You are not undeserving. YOU are here too in this great Presence, as this great Presence. Your cup runs over with grace and you don't even know it. A pity. What you seek is what you are right now.


good for you . Did I say anything to you ? You are confused in your own shadow intelligence and I rather stay fool or idiot but I am not confused like you are.
I am fine in my world and you stay confused and happy in your own world .


Enjoyed your comment. The Presense is for everyone, even if a particular Baba Ji thinks it is deserved or not. I liked, "Such grace to be alive, to witness and be a part of this splendor."


What am I confused about?

Glad you liked my comment, and I know you understand splendor can also be found holding a beer in a special way on the back of a Harley.

tucson, what about holding a beer on the front of a Harley? Now, that would be sort of miraculous.

Blogger Brian, Unwittingly you hit on something. In this case it's what's up front that counts. Right Roger?

B.B. I'll send you an email to bring you up to speed if I can find what I'm talking about.

tucson, thanks for the email. I now know how to hold a beer while riding a Harley. (Not that I could manage it myself.) Those who aren't disturbed by shapely, large, almost bare breasts -- and anyone reading a churchless blog shouldn't be -- can learn the secret here:


Yes, I would agree with, "In this case it's what's up front that counts." Well, mainly 2 things, up front. Hahahaha....Roger

I find the RS cosmology strange with all the different astral planes through which the soul ascends.

But there does seem to be an overlap with many other esoteric traditions like theosophy which have 7 as their magic number of planes. Gnosticism also talks of these various planes of existence with their own rulers and experiences.
These appear to be belong to the 'Ascended Master Teachings' of mystic traditions.

Whats interesting is not the labelling or categorisation, rather the apparent overlap of first person accounts these 'masters' seem to share pf their self-knowledge experiences, despite coming from different eras and cultures.

The tibetan book of the dead also describes various stages of consciousness that a person supposedly passes through, though i dont know if there is overlap here, but the whole point of shabd yoga as i understand it is to stimulate a near death experience, where in turn the ascension through these various planes occurs.

Its too big a step to believe there is some superconsciousness or godmind or sach kind - tho this may be the case - another explanation is that these adepts have trained themselves to delve into their own human minds deepest recesses or at least caught glimpses of it.

However, the mystical traditions above appear to believe this superconsciouscness or cosmic mind does exist independently and is not a creation of the human mind. Rather, these traditions appear to believe that this superconsciousness or godhead is what created the human mind in the first place.

There's a fella called Sri Aurobindo who believed our aim should be to try live life in harmony with this superconsciousness and that strikes me as a particulatly taoist idea with the superconsciousness being the Tao.

Alot of incoherent ramblings, but something might trigger, and someone can shed some more light.

I ran across this post during some internet searchings.

Supra-consciousness by Dr. Deepak Ranade

The medical field has made incredible advances in the fields of diagnosis, and management of a variety of Neurological disorders. The scope of this progress is however restricted to identify and subsequently attempt to rectify the underlying problem. The spectrum of disorders that can be treated range from degenerative disorders, metabolic disorders right up to trauma and tumors of the nervous system. There has also been significant progress in understanding the structure and function of the nervous system. However, areas like consciousness are still beyond the scope of medical technology.

The known hierarchy of consciousness extends only to sub-optimal grades.- drowsy stuporous, semiconscious or then unconscious. Theoretically there has to be a supra-optimal grade of consciousness- “the supra-conscious”. Medical science has severe limitations in quantifying the optimal level of consciousness. Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging can at best identify the degree and extent of blood flow to the different parts of the brain.

Consciousness can be defined as the ability of an organism to be alert and inter-act with the environment. It is being aware of ones own self and also having the ability to react with “non-self”-surrounding objects or beings. The unicellular organism is also a drop of consciousness bounded by a cell membrane. Higher forms needed an upgrade. Evolution provided segregation of this primitive cognition. The ability to focus this awareness to a specific object or activity. The ability to concentrate. So when a predator is hunting, he will necessarily need to focus all his attention on the prey. This is also coupled with an ability to defocus this awareness. Like the feel of the clothing on our bodies. They are touching us and the tactile apparatus is sending the appropriate signals to the brain, but still the brain has the discriminatory ability to keep this data below the horizon of cognition. But there is the constant “I AM” awareness that forms the background activity of consciousness. This I AM ness permeates all awake states. Intellect, thoughts are all derivatives of this I AM ness.
Further evolution takes place in the realm of elevating this consciousness.

Spiritual masters are the ones that mutate this consciousness to a supra-conscious state. This mutation results in the “I” being deleted and what remains is just the Amness. Unqualified. This Amness is expansile and all inclusive because the restrictive ‘I’ is eliminated.

This universal Am ness is a state of supraconsciousness since it transcends a particular being. This Am ness is Advaita. To reside in that blissful state is the objective of all attempts at self realization. This term is a misnomer because in this state a separate self does not exist. Just unconditional beingness. And this entire illusion of duality was created because this universal Am ness could not perceive itself. There had to be a subject object dichotomy for acknowledging its own AM ness. Being ness has no beginning or end. There is no concept of time either. Eternity is in the moment. And the moment lasts an eternity. At that state identification with the physical form no longer remains. It is like the pot which is contained in space and also contains space. The consciousness permeates the form from without and also within, A state of wholeness, a state of oneness. Science is based on the act of observation. The seer, the seen and the process of seeing. But supraconsciousness is the state where this trinity has merged. So supraconsciousness is beyond the scope of scrutiny because it includes scrutiny.

The process of initiation by the master is probably starting the journey beyond just awareness of the mind body form. Therefore liberation is not of the person, but rather from the person.

--The "process of initiation" by the master is "probably" a starting point. I liked the "probably" addition.

I realize that the term "journey" is probably used for convenience due to either the author's lack of understanding or more likely his inability to come up with the right word at the time of his writing.

How could there be anywhere for awareness to go if all is contained within it? Going to another "region" is really not a "going to" but rather a change in appearance within that which is ubiquitous.

But I am not sure how someone could be initiated into a process that doesn't exist. Maybe it just signifies that the initiate has begun the process of attempting to lift himself by his own bootstraps only to discover at some point that there are no bootstraps to lift, and if there were that it would be impossible to do.

So, initiation is meaningless other than a purely symbolic gesture indicating that someone is dissatisfied with their state of awareness and thinks that the initiator can do something about that.

How can an initiator make a cat a cat? The initiated is already a cat thinking that they aren't a cat. I guess the initiator can be helpful because since he/she theoretically is a cat that knows it's a cat they can sort of be an example to the cat that doesn't know it's a cat.


I liked,

"So, initiation is meaningless other than a purely symbolic gesture indicating that someone is dissatisfied with their state of awareness and thinks that the initiator can do something about that."

--I got the impression the above SC post was written for the general public. Everyone seems to think in terms of a journey.

Dear George,

Today only I could read your comment dated 3 December 2009.

Thanks for your words. In santmat, there is scope for disscusion till you do not achieve anything.

It is a very slippry path. It is only your own experience that counts. Even the experience of your spouce can be only an encouraging step for you.

As far as teachers and preachers are concerned, there is no dearth of it. There is dearth of real seekers and practitioners. For a preacher, it is lip service and for a follower it is a life long struggle. You need not be a follower of RSSB, but a definite course of meditation is essential for conditioning of the physical body and then...........................

with regards,


There are some things about RS and the various mystic traditions which do make alot of sense, but i wonder how you (and many other rational-thinking initiates) dealt with the strange cosmology and theology.

i mean there may indeed by 6 or 7 different astral spheres which one's soul can ascend thru, but it seems more likely these adepts are delving within their own minds, deeper and deeper into their own consciousness.

You are definitely right tho, a course of meditation is the first step and personal experience is key, the question is what meditiation and teacher to put one;s trust in, and so it comes back to what tradition.

Dear George,

If we are really interested in pursuing any course of meditation or a subject of study we should keep our short term goals to achieve. Once those goals are realized we can look forward. Any unrealized goal is only a concept/story/hearsay/gossip etc., etc.,

In RSSB also, you must sift yourself what exactely you want to proceed with. Do not trust in what other followers say or what they have experienced or their relatives have expereinced.

Have your own experience. You may take a second to experience or the whole life may be too short for you.

It is grace of God and your efforts ( due to grace of God) becouse "I" has to go. A spiritual eye will open when your "I" dies.

with regads,

You will never understand This path untill you go with in and see master within in his radiant form . There is no doubt that he comes in time of death , but understand him fully you must go within while living


have you "gone within" and "see master" ??? i think not. there is no "within", and there is no "master" - so that makes you a phony and a hypocrite.

moreover, you say "there is no doubt". but you don't know what (if anything) comes "in time of death". why? because you are not dead yet, therefore you don't know and you can't say. - so that means you are a load of bs.

people like you are so stupid, imo. very stupid. because all you are is empty talk and hypocrisy, and your mind is full of bs.

thus its really you who "will never understand" diddly.

Dear Vijay,

I was curios how is the radiant form of the master, is it with the beard turban and white clothes? Thanks for the reply

If there is anything to spirituality it must be the experience core to all religions before man's mind interprets it. The interpretation distorts, but without teaching how does one achieve the experience?

Some say there is nothing to be achieved - no goal, no journey, no path, no teaching, no masters - only a direct realization. Yet this is in itself a teaching.

Others prefer a path with a method to be applied and practiced for achieving the enligtenment experience.

So the question of effort or no effort in attaining englightenment is not clear.

What seems common is a stilling of the mind. Either through meditation, one-pointed awareness of the now by getting involved in the moment or koans whose insolubility leads to direct realization by distracting the thinking mind.

The skeptic has many questions:

Is the core experience itself real or a creation of the mind?

Why do the enlightened with their ego-loss and humility embody personages that become so totally adored? Even central to some meditation.

How can one be humble if they teach or claim the truth?

What is the psychological make-up of humans having such epiphanies? Schizophrenia and ego-splitting disorders are known. Surely its also possible for a psyche to split the self from the ego as a mechanism to allow a sensitive person to deal with the perceived harshness of reality?

Why only a special enlightened few, why is it not more widespread or natural? Is overcoming the mind natural?

George, good questions. I'd add some of my own:

What is enlightenment? How do we know it exists? What is the difference between an enlightened person and unenlightened person? How could someone tell whether he or she is enlightened, from the "inside" so to speak? And how could someone tell whether someone else is enlightened, from the "outside" so to speak?

yes Brian.

My idea of enlightenment is mankind using the mind's specific ability of 'reason' to overcome dogma and conditioning, i.e. modern science.

The spiritual meaning is quite different in trying to overcome the mind and tap into a more primal awareness. An awakening to our essential inner nature, an ego-less (no I) awareness of the interconnectedness of all.

So presumably ppl can tell from the 'inside' that they are enlightened if they've had such an ezperience of the illusory nature of the world of forms.

Whether this realization is real or a hallucination cannot be objectuvely validated. Similarly, there is no 'outside' way of telling who is enlightened - somewhat conveniently the enlightenment experience by its nature seems a totally personal one that can only be achieved by going within.

What happens if one goes within and has no such experience and why are so few allowed to experience enlightenment? Seems damn unfair.

you either want to know the truth or you continue to rack your infantile reason against the limitations of your own self aggrandized incapacity.

make up your mind what it is you want, to decipher reality by your own incomplete means or by those methods which offer the resolution.

your scientific models are so incapacitated and archaic they have no wherewithal to encapsulate the substance of that which sustains everything, keep beating your brow to an absolute pulp, it will suffice you nothing whatsoever from here until eternity, and beyond.

i have read all the comments
i can only say that guru,meditation,seva are surely a way of life, if it doesnt do any good atleast there is no harm, and all the scriptures, say bhagwat gita, guru granth sahib, and all the saints like kabir,guru nanak and all, say the same thing, and when i read there sayings and preachings, i feel all they say is absolutely true.i am not here to fight or argue, maybe i am wrong but one thing i am sure of is that by following the radha soami path i will be a better person and a better human being.liberation is a goal of life but the life journey is satisfying when you have a guru and his preachings to lean on when times are bad

George, the cosmos' rationing of enlightenment would be unfair only if enlightenment actually exists. As you noted, there is no evidence that it does. No outward signs, for sure. All we have are people's subjective claims that they are enlightened.

Of course, if someone has realized ego loss, you have to wonder why they'd want to go around saying "I am enlightened." So seemingly this takes away subjective claims of enlightenment also, since anyone who claims to be enlightened wouldn't be by definition -- if enlightenment is the absence of a sense of ego.

If one were to become enlightened that would be a state that could change or be lost, for what appears disappears. Enlightenment is not a state.

The paradox is that there is an 'aha' moment when existence recognizes or wakes up to itself, but no one needs enlightenment because they cannot contually exist as an enlightened one or even be such a one in the first place. Such a one who poses as enlightened is a phoney, hence the statement: If you see a buddha by the side of the road, strike him with a stick.

To have an enlightenment experience is to lose it. For experience always ends. That which manifests is destined to become unmanifest.

A teacher can't teach you. To submit to someone who has something to teach would only serve to consolidate that you are not that which you already are. What kind of teacher is that? What is there to be taught and who would learn it?

Dear Feat to yhe fire

If I tell you that yes or No about going within . What diffrence does it makes ? Will you believe me or make a fun of me or others .Time of death or close to death in family , Yes master did came in that time , Its not someone's imaginations or philosophy . He did appear they told us all things about his apearnace . I have no video to prove so belive or not its up to you . His radiant form is what you see him in physical

I agree with Brian. Even I suffered from the great Radha Soami 10 percent ego.

Now I am out of it. However, I do feel that meditators are not more than one/tenth of creation. Have a reality check.

Dear George,

You seem to be interested to know about the astral planes.

Please read, Kabir's "KAR NAINO DEEDAR MAHAL MAIN PYARA HAI" if you can understand Hindi or its English version. It deals with all the planes-starting from anus (lower most) point to third eye and beyond through penis/cunt, navel, heart, Adam’s apple.

Each lower as well as higher plane can be reached by the same technique of simran and Bhajan with help of an adept. One should not try at one's own. There are many finer points.

I am writing in a rather very crude manner.

Different people have explained the upper plains either five or seven depending upon the importance attached to those planes.

These experiences are almost similar and detailed in all the religious books of the world. The languages are different and not easy to understand script and notion.

With kindest regards,

Brian, I've never heard anyone say, "I am enlightened"... pretty weird thing to say.

Rakesh, sorry to see you write in a crude manner... this is a first for you… disappointing.

Jen, I've heard (or read) lots of people say that. I'll agree that usually it isn't stated so simply, in those three words. But many gurus sit smilingly by while disciples claim enlightenment for them.

And books are filled with statements about how the author says enlightenment is to be achieved, along with descriptions of how either they or someone else attained this state (Zen literature, for example).

Jen, another thought: I agree that it would be weird for someone to say "I am enlightened" if the essence of enlightenment is the recognition of no "I."

Yet many claims of enlightenment are made. What to make of them?

If nobody who says they are enlightened is really enlightened, and there are no objective signs of enlightenment, then how is it possible to believe enlightenment exists?

The only people making claims about the reality of enlightenment would be those who aren't enlightened (because enlightened people don't talk about their enlightenment).

So I've come to view "enlightenment" as an empty word. And that, it can be argued, is the True Enlightenment: realizing that it doesn't exist!

Brian, maybe “enlightenment” is a word used to explain a kind of completeness, wholeness, connectedness, being at one with self and the universe. Is this just a different form of perception or do we actually have a shift of consciousness to achieve this state?

Still being in the world of duality I find enlightenment very appealing and most teachers of spirituality speak of stilling the mind as in meditation or being in the moment as in being aware and conscious in each waking moment so I continue to practice, feeble though my efforts may be, still seeking my true self. And, yes I know the very “trying” and “seeking” is not correct and yet in my heart of hearts I hope there will be a breakthrough one day.


One who's identity is objectivisable cannot be free. That is, they are bound by their concept of what they are and thus subject to birth/death/change. It is identity with this flow of memories, sensations and experiences which constitute a self.

If 'I' remain unidentified with these objectivizations, seeing that they are merely passing phenomena in awareness, or if I am released from such identification then 'I', eternally free, appear to recover my apparently lost freedom.

For 'I' am THIS which is devoid of objectivity as identity, and what 'I' am not is that which appears to be identified with that which is objectivized.

It is as simple as that.

Yes, simple and easy to understand, but simply understanding doesn’t do anything, doesn’t change anything. THIS mind that understands words is the same that makes people “bound by their concept of what they are and thus subject to birth/death/change”. THIS thinking mind is the “identity with this flow of memories, sensations and experiences which constitute a self”. In this world of duality we do identify with this self, this identity.

If non-duality has not been experienced then there has to be some form of practice such as meditation to still this habitually thinking mind. There must be another form of consciousness which will emerge for one-ness to be experienced.

'THIS' is not the thinking mind in the sense that I use the word here, but rather to indicate immediacy. Thoughts are objects, appearances.

You see, no thing IS in its own right. There is no 'us' because 'we' are only each others objects as 'us'.

All that can be said is that there is total objective absence which is the presence of what we are which is THIS which is not.

Now I know this sounds like gobbledygook, but bear with me.

We are not any concept or thing at all because THIS which we are cannot be caught or held or known. It does not belong in the realm of time or space. Nothing mysterious or holy about it though. It is just phenomenal notness and the absence of any concepts of that notness.

AT this point one may wonder if we have andy positive being whatsoever. Positivity and negativity are phenomenal concepts, 'We' are not conceivable at all.

Or one may wonder who, then, lives. There is no 'who'. You cannot find the doer of any act,or the thinker of any thought or the perveiver of any perception. The unfindable is all that we are, and the unfindable is the found.

Drop the notion that even the tiniest grain of sand or an atom exists objectively. Only when every tiny fragment and every giant galaxy is seen to be nothing at all will your true nature shine in full clarity.

The past is a memory and the future is a supposition. The present is passed before we can ber aware of it because perception requires a journey through neural pathways etc. to enter awareness.

Therefore the only present is 'PRESENCE' and this presence which we are is outside time and space.

They've been saying it for ages. Abandon the phenomenal center. Without center, there is no circumference and what remains is infinity.

Well said

"The past is a memory and the future is a supposition. The present is passed before we can ber aware of it because perception requires a journey through neural pathways etc. to enter awareness.

Therefore the only present is 'PRESENCE' and this presence which we are is outside time and space.

They've been saying it for ages. Abandon the phenomenal center. Without center, there is no circumference and what remains is infinity."

It is the present only which matters because in due course of time the present becomes past and future becomes present. Past and future are two expressions of the present only.

Therefore, entire creation for us matters in the present state alone.

so much only.

Jen said: "simply understanding doesn’t do anything, doesn’t change anything."

Jen, why do you feel something has to be done, has to be changed? what is there that needs be done or changed? is every moment not exactly as it should be? why do you feel a need to change things? there is no end to this sort of seeking to change things. let go, and you will see that nothing needs to be done or changed.

Jen said: "In this world of duality we do identify with this self, this identity."

Jen, who is "we"? and also how do you know what others "identify with"?

Jen said: "If non-duality has not been experienced then there has to be some form of practice such as meditation to still this habitually thinking mind."

Jen, why do you presume that "there has to be some form of practice such as meditation"? why does there "has to be"? and why do you feel the need to "still this habitually thinking mind"? why do you believe there is a mind that needs to be stilled? and how do you know that mind can be stilled?

Jen said: "There must be another form of consciousness which will emerge for one-ness to be experienced."

Jen, what "other form of consciousness" is there? and why does "oneness" need to be experienced? for what purpose?

Jen, why do you presume or believe all those notions? why does there have to be anything other than life, just as it is? why do you feel a need to be any different than the way you are right now? why do you think you need some so-called "enlightenment"? enlightenment just an empty idea. there is no enlightenment. its a myth. there is only your own human life, just as it is in each and every moment. all this "enlightenment" stuff is a fiction.

Just ask yourself these questions... until you see that there is really nothing to do or to change, spiritually speaking. because your life is always exactly the way its supposed to be.

Well guys, its all very abstract, words and more words and... I'll think about it, no I won't, not thinking... not thinking... :)

Dear tAo,

Just remembered you had asked me some questions. I like what you say here: "Just ask yourself these questions... until you see that there is really nothing to do or to change, spiritually speaking. because your life is always exactly the way its supposed to be."

I agree, thanks, I am just who I am.


Yep, I'm sure you have all realized I've been calling myself Jen! lol

Jen said: "Well guys, its all very abstract, words and more words and... I'll think about it, no I won't, not thinking... not thinking... :)"

--Don't get hung up on the words. Forget the words. They are at best pointers beating around the bush. Indeed they are abstractions. What is pointed to is not abstract at all. It is the epitome of lack of abstraction.

It is not 'thinking" or 'not thinking'. It is the absence of both 'thinking' and 'not thinking'.

As long as you are thinking, looking, living as from an imaginary phenomenal center you can never recognise your freedom.

That is all I have to say. I'm done. My best wishes to all and thank you.


Just keep attention at 3 rd eye . stay still and focus on guru .
Best wishes

Is this a same Brian who wrote Life is fair . Does is still in this path . I heared his very confusing satsang in seattle area long ago .
Once you are in this Path then there is no escape , There is no other door to knock . Its like kite its goes higher and higher untill string is pulled by him .

vijay, you obviously assume many things, but you simply cannot speak for other people. and this is not a site devoted to sant mat, or a place for you to preach sant mat.

Vijay, you must be confusing me with another Brian. I never gave a confusing satsang. People who listened to me may have gotten confused, but that's different.

I always said things that weren't all that different from what I talk about on this blog: real spirituality isn't about blind belief, but about doing consciousness experiments and seeing what the results are.

wow Brian . Thanks

dear, love is spontaneous thing i agree with u. merely joining an organisation or initiation is not enough to develop love for master or god.this is what master says in his satsang.he is always against this show of pseudo love for him. he always say that love becos of merely concept in mind is shallow .to make it real u have to have attachment with inner guru that is shabd. eternal bond and love for guru develops when u see his true radiant form inside. followers love without inner bliss is shallow one or out of respect, nothig else.
then about the marked souls ..... .he means from this that everything is decided by god. all souls are dear to HIM. but few souls who have feeling of incomleteness and try to search the truth ...god to fulfil their this desire choses them to come to him. so they automatically reach to the living guru of that time. if one soul is not marked today it does not mean that it will always remain unmarked. that soul also will be marked at its appropriate time.so all souls have to go back at some or the other time.
all souls are fortunate not becos they are marked or unmarked ,but becos they are tiny parts of god. all have potential to go back to god. the difference lies in time they seek for god in true way.
when master says santmat is only way to meet god..........from this means not only rssb but all who practice surat shabd yoga. he also says that spirtuality is not the personal treasure of rssb. whoever follow this practice of surat shabd under guidance of living guru of any place is following santmat. followers who followed christ under his guidance in his time and were initiated by him were also following santmat. so please once again try to know the essence of santmat.
with love...from dushyant

radha soami initiates are not special. they also have sufferings. they also paying their debts as the other do.only difference is that they have oppertunity to meditiate under guidance of living guru. and vert few take benefit out of it. very few initiates who has seen inner radiant form of guru inside are special not all initiates.others are rather unfortunate they rather being standing on path but are not able to walk for some or the other reason.more ever initiation has nothing to do with pride .rather its the sword to kill ur selfego. its blessing of god. its the mercy of god. proud arises when u get it by ur capability. but its gift and mercy. so need to be proud of initiation. we all are struggling souls even after initiation .there should be no proud or special about it.thats what i think about it.

hello sir,
i am confused person of 19 and want to get "naam" from guru ji as early as possible.

Ashwani kuamr... yer damn right you are a "confused person". anybody that seeks and wants involvement with that cult leader, has got to be very confused. you are young, so don't waste your time. go live your life for a few years, and then see if you still feel the same. the world is full of these fraudulent "guruji"(s). so don't be a sucker.

Ashwani, this web site isn't connected with Radha Soami Satsang Beas. You'll need to contact RSSB directly.

Ashwani Kuamr,

Being in a confused state is not a good time to make major decisions such as committing to a particular guru and spiritual path.

It is just this type of confusion that makes Sant mat appeal to many people. Sant Mat appears to have all the answers, but are the teachings really true? Is Gurinder Singh really a perfect sat guru? How do you know? How could you possibly know? Do you want to base your life on a premise that may not be proven to be true until you die or in another life, if there is one?

The guru is asking you to lay down your life to him (surrender). What has he done to deserve this from you? Promises of salvation? If someone wants to sell you a comfortable chair isn't it their job to show you evidence that the chair is actually comfortable before you buy it?

The store may give you a refund if you are not satisfied with the chair, but will Sant Mat give you a refund for 10-20-30 years or an entire lifetime of devotion if you decide that it is false and change your mind?

You want to be very clear in your thinking and very objective about this. Don't confuse the guru's charisma, the magical claims of the teachings, the reverence shown by the crowds at satsangs, and the resulting emotions you may feel in response to these things with actual spiritual uplift.

Many seekers are comforted by the sheer numbers of satsangis at bhandaras and the size of the guru's following as evidence of his divinity. However, keep in mind that there are over a billion muslims in the world. Does this prove that Mohammed was Allah's messenger? Why not become a muslim? Or a christian? There's a billion of them absolutely convinced of their faith as well. What if Jesus is the only way as they believe and you got sidetracked by Sant Mat?

Don't be in a hurry about this. Study widely and learn from different teachers and teachings. Wait until your outlook is mature. Charan Singh used to say that time spent in this way is never wasted.

Good advice, imo.

Hi Brian,
I stumbled upon your site about eight months ago... :) At that point I was trying to see if the RSSB site had been updated so I randomly Googled - RSSB and then there were a few sites that popped up...
Church of the Churchless was where I landed...
My first reaction was " Oh ! what bad karma... "
I exited immediately.
Just a few days ago, I went online again and I got to know that you are the guy who wrote -
Life is Fair
I have to say that the book is one of my favorites in the RSSB library. I see now that you have " gone off the path " and it came as a big surprise to me ! Anyway, I have been reading some of the posts on RSSB.

Many Splits, thanks for putting "gone off the path" in quotation marks to indicate a certain irony in that phrase. I used to say those words myself from time to time, because I never thought much about them.

Now, I realize that every human is always on the path -- their own path that starts at birth, extends through life, and ends at death. Whether there is more to "the path" is a decidedly open question.

As I've written on my blogs, seemingly this sentiment, gone off the path, is only used in a religious context. I was married for 18 years. Then I went off the marriage path when my wife and I got divorced. Now I've been married a second time for almost 20 years. Did I go off "the path"? Was I ever off it? Am I more on it now than before?

I practiced traditional Shotokan karate for about nine years. Shotokan, like most martial arts, considers that is the best martial art. When I left Shotokan, the students and instructor who I'd trained with probably thought "he's left the path." But soon I was studying a mixed style, less rigid martial art that was much more to my liking -- and, I'd argue, more effective.

Currently I'm into Tai Chi, including its martial applications. When I look back on my martial arts "path" I see twists and turns, stops and starts. I don't see an abrupt beginning and ending, a losing of the way and then finding it. I was always on the way, or as the Taoists put it, the Way.

Anyway, hope you enjoy my posts about RSSB. They simply reflect my observations about what I learned about "the path" over the years.

Dear Brian,
Thanks for the insightful reply to my comment from earlier this morning. I have great respect for you - you followed Sant Mat for 35 years, and wrote a wonderful book along the way.
Regarding what I wrote... I simply put " gone off the path " in quotes, cause it simply reflects the cliched reaction most Satsangis' would have when someone decides to ( for the lack of better words ) " do their own thing " and dare to think beyond the realms of the conventional RS doctrine.
In essence, I was trying to be a bit humorous, my apologies if I came across otherwise... :)
Your posts and the observations put forward are refreshing and
encourage free thinking... They remind me of a quote by Jiddu Krishnamurti which ends with... " ... that should lead the person to the threshold of his own mind. " I do not remember the first half, but it is a beautiful quote.
I find your involvement in martial arts quite interesting. I've always wanted to learn Kenjutsu, maybe someday I will !
Cheers !

Many splits,

The quote by Jiddu, sounds interesting,

"... that should lead the person to the threshold of his own mind."

--would be intersting, for conversational purposes to learn what the first part of the quote is. Hopefully, something interesting. What would be the threshold, and how one would come to know his own mind? In addition, the importance of "leading" the conceptualized person to such.

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