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September 19, 2009

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Osho Robbins,

I rather like your new blog. I haven't read it all yet, I just took a quick glance, but I like the essence of what you are trying to say. I won't have the time for another few days. But I will get to it soon.

What you say is a bit how I see it too. I don't know if that is what Sant Mat doctrine was really about way back in its early days, but I do feel that your interpretation captures the underlying true meaning and spirit of it.

You done good, and what you have said so far, I think needs to be said. Of course ome satsangis won't accept it as its coming from you and not from RS, but that doesn't matter. Your take is as good as anyone's, maybe even much better. I have interpreted the teachings Sant Mat very much like you do, so you are not alone.

I would have posted this on your site, but I wasn't sure which page was the best one. I jujst wanted to lend you some support. And thanks for all your great comments here. You are definitely on the right track, imo. Well done my friend. Thanks and my best regards to you.

All just speculation and unsupported interpretation.

"He is not ALL-KNOWING and he has not traversed any inner regions, since there are none."
--- On what support do you make this claim?

"There is no such place - except in your mind."
--- On what support do you make this claim?

"He is not ALL-KNOWING and he has not traversed any inner regions, since there are none."
--- On what support do you make this claim?

You cannot ARRIVE there because (1) it is not a PLACE and (2) there is NO TIME and (3) there is NO YOU to arrive.
--- On what support do you make this claim?


Tao,
Still making changes to it. Sant mat has always used stories and my opinion is that some of them were meant as a metaphor and not to be taken literally. However, once you take some of these stories literally you end up in a very confused place - like trying to get to Sach khand and taking Kal and Sat Purush to be literal 'beings' who have form. So GOD is formless - but Sat Purush has a form. How does that one work?

Sant mat is mainly a duality path and the only sant mat Guru I know of who gave the teachings a new slant was Faqir Chand.

Tao, you are very articulate and accurate when you write - much more than I am - and you are most welcome to add your comments - even and especially when they disagree with mine.

Thanks for all your support.

Osho said: "Still making changes to it. Sant mat has always used stories and my opinion is that some of them were meant as a metaphor and not to be taken literally."

---Certainly in Charan Singh's time they were to be taken literally, and they were presented as such in the literature, i.e. "Sar Bachan" and "Radha Soami Teachings" to name a couple. Why would the master want to perpetuate a misunderstanding and illusion?

Now Osho wants to present these teachings as symbolic much as Charan Singh used to do with the Bible and the book "St. John". Charan used to say "Christ said this but what he really meant was this."

All we know is that RS teachings say there is actually a radiant form of the master to guide you through actual vast regions of light and sound with dweeps and hansas and rotating caves and all that. It's written down that way. Why would they do that unless they thought it was true, or worse, wanted to dupe a bunch of gullible, unsophisticated people to perpetuate their organization?

Perhaps an earlier, 'more enlightened' guru used these regions as metaphors, but as the teachings crystalized into dogma later on, less 'enlightened' gurus presented them as real becasue they themselves thought they really were or at least found them convenient in serving the purpose of perpetuating the family business.

I have to say that George makes a good point, at least to the outside observer or true believer satsangi, when he asks:

"He is not ALL-KNOWING and he has not traversed any inner regions, since there are none."
--- On what support do you make this claim?

"There is no such place - except in your mind."
--- On what support do you make this claim?

You cannot ARRIVE there because (1) it is not a PLACE and (2) there is NO TIME and (3) there is NO YOU to arrive.
--- On what support do you make this claim?

I may understand and agree with those statements, but on face value I can see why someone else might want evidence of the truth of the statements.

I mean, a satsangi believes RS teachings about regions, GIHF, etc. to be true so they will say prove they are not.

And 'round and 'round we go.

Osho,

i've left some questions on your blog thread since i am not sure how you arrived at some of your conclusions.

http://truesantmat.typepad.com/true-sant-mat---the-real-teachings-behind-sant-mat/2009/09/oneness-duality-formless-what-it-really-all-means.html#comments

Tucson,

You are right to state that the stories of sant mat were taken literally. I am just saying that it makes sense that they were never meant to be taken literally - even though they are and have been taken literally.

I am saying that RSSB teachings are a duality path, however, there is a way to interpret them that gives a different slant to the teachings. I am not saying that RSSB interprets them that way - as they clearly don't.

Here's an example of how easily we can take a metphor literally.

kabir: Kabir was going to mecca for a pilgrimage, but on the way he met God.
God started at argument with kabir, saying "Who told You I live in Kaaba."

Taken literally - it says that kabir literally met God. Taken as a metaphor it is simply trying to put over teh point that God does not reside in one particular place.

The story of creation in the Sar Bachan - Kal standing on one leg - has been taken literally - but it is meant to be a metaphor - because literally it does not make sense. Otherwise you have to answer questions like - Why is Sat Purush more impressed with someone standing on one leg? If this is the case - maybe we should all mediatate standing on one leg!

The new slant makes more sense - but I am not saying that RSSB takes it that way.

Dear Osho Robbins,

It's nice to read a different intepretation of the Sat Mat philosophy. Haven't read the complete blog articles but i like it so far..
Keep it up

David

David, check out the Faqir Chand postings there too - he was from the agra line and one of the most controversial sant mat gurus because he stated categorically that sant mat gurus are not all-knowing as many disciples believe and also he went to Anami - the highest spiritual region and then said - it is all an illusion of the mind - that the regions are creations of the mind - as are all the spiritual experiences like light and sound and the radiant form.

[comment deleted because it wasn't in English]

The true Guru is the Shabd, the Sound Current, which in the West is called the Word, the Holy Spirit. As the apostle John wrote, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God'. This creation of the divine Word is recorded in Genesis in the Torah.
This Word manifests in the physical world and the mind with the sound of a bell, that pulls the soul out of the body and mind into the spirit, like a divine magnet.

Jennifer,
nice theory, which sant mat book is that from?
What is 'true guru?'
what is shabd?
what is holy spirit?
what sound of the bell?

it's all nonsense, yet you make the statement as if it some fact. It is simply something you have read that is meaningless.

Hi Osho,

Is there Awareness 'there' ?

i e will we be aware after death ?

Is Nothing aware ?

Hi Mike,
awareness is a function of individuality. if there is no individuality, there can be no awareness. Nothingness is not aware. It is the absence of all you can conceptualize about it. It simply IS - or should I say ISN'T? Anything I say about it will be a lie because everything I say is a concept.

As an individual - I see and then I perceive the world. It is MY perception - it is tainted with MY past and MY filters. So I see MY VERSION of the world. THAT is my perception. It is not reality. It is what WAS reality - before I put it through my filter and created MY reality.

So 'perception' requires an INDIVIDUAL. Awareness requires an individual.

Nothingness has no individual viewpoint from which to perceive or to be aware - and there is NOTHING to be aware of.

separate 'things' do not exist - nothing exists - so exactly what could the ONE be aware of? there is nothing there.

Osho robbins,
seems to have a grudge over the present master of RSSB,
He himself is neither literate for spiritual understanding neither he understand what is santmat.
He is just trying to get attention,fool some and make money,
Like he keeps on doing.
He said he asked Guriender,that my god is here
And in return Guriender replied,even my god is here.
Now what wrong he said,
Kan kan main hain ram,
God is everywhere,
in sachkhand you just see the true form of GOD,
but in this EARTH planet what we see is just illusionary form of god,
and charan singh baba ji or rs mat never told stories,
it all happened in real and thus were mentioned in books,
even i m a witness of such few incidents.
They are all natural real and true.

And the present master further said,Burn all the books,
very well said,
Because when people like osho robbins keep on understanding their own way of santmat but not the true santmat,
osho like people just keep on reading,but are far away from implementing it nor experiencing it,
so for those people only that reply applies
BURN ALL THE BOOKS,
YOU read enough now try to follow and seek the truth,
but osho like people instead of understanding the writing of santmat books,
starts their own belief system based on useless and baseless ideas and imagination,
instead of trying to follow the path,
they are busy in creating their own path,
just to wait to see one day some one questioning OSHO ROBBINS and the reply will come from other side..BURN OSHO ROBBINS..
because he is being baseless,
he is not a qualified person to make his own merits and impose his understanding of santmat,
OSHO my advice to you,do not bluff with other people,
you will be at loss.
I see you as a bluffmaster who want to cash by making fool of others by stating your santmat is a true one,Which actually is not santmat at its first place.


And about doing meditation by KAL with single leg
OSHO to understand that you need to understand santmat first,
you have understood oshomat which is individual
try to understand santmat whic his universal,
and you said if one leg meditation impress the god,
sorry to saym
you do not seems even fit to do meditation which both of your legs.
so do not make false claims..to get false fame.

Hi osho,
I agree with you. I have been asking myself
this question since I was 9 years old and
it perplexes me to this day.

The Univere expands and creates space
(a web fabic) as it expands. Only
outside our expanding universe does
nothing exist.

i e even space is something. We are trapped
in the web of something. We cannot go
outside our universe into nothingness.

But, to make matters worse science says there
may be about 11 dimensions.

Could it be one of these dimensions is
Nothingness and is the foundation
for space (something)?

The ultimate question is for us, is there
any awareness after death ?

We know consciousness is the product
of evolution and will die with us.
Consciousness was not the cause.

But, could there be an awareness within
Nothingness. An awareness we can not
comprehend the nature of ?

Something Else ? Can our inherent nature
as Nothingness experience itself
'as itself' ?

Being itself, (as the substance of the form
so to speak used as a visualization method) ?

Osho you're talking rubbish, Faqir Chand never went to Anami, you only reach Anami after you have reached Sachkhand. Faqir Chand clearly stated that 'I have reached the fourth stage but can't reach the fifth stage, I don't know why i can't reach the fifth stage,I try my best but I can't'.
So Osho you're fabricating it.

Maharishi Shiv Brat Lal , Faquir Chand's
Guru and initiate of Rai Salig Ram, wrote
in a letter to Faquir Chand

"Faqir, I am receiving your letters. I admire your aspirations. I have realized Reality, Truth, Bliss and Peace in the fold of Radha Swami Faith from Rai Salig Ram Sahib."


It should be mentioned Sawan Singh endorsed Faqir Chand as a Master and Charan
endorsed Chand on tape. Beas does not deny his status.

"This is the secret which has been kept so guarded by all the religions and even by the gurus of the Radhaswami Faith. They have kept the public in dark. They have exploited us; they have robbed us; they have cheated us and they have deceived us by saying that they go, whereas they do not go or manifest themselves to anybody. They have admitted this truth before me.

So, from all these experiences, I have come to know that whatever we see in the form of our ideal [depends on our own karmic perspective]. If one's mind is pure then the answer that one would get from the manifested ideal shall be true. But if one's mind is not pure, then the answer will be wrong and there is every possibility that the ideal may put you on the wrong way of life if your mind is not pure."

quote Chand

Mike,

On which tape did Charan endorse Chand? I have the quite a lot of tapes of RS, like London satsang 1975,1976 etc and would be interested to know which tape.

Gaz,
David Lane can tell you. He is the
one who mentioned the tape.

Gaz
David Lane can give you exact date.

Ok I will ask him then

Fakir Chand From Ishwar Puri (Illusion or Reality – Chicago – Feb 8, 2013)
“After all that beautiful experience, he ran into another video and a book by Baba Fakir Chand. Now Baba Fakir Chand is one of the saints who claimed that he will do nothing. In fact, his biography published is called The Unknowing Saint, and he claimed that the masters know nothing. Everything you get is from within yourself, that the masters do not even project their radiant form in you. You project the radiant form yourself. And he gave an example…Baba Fakir Chand gave an example of his own life when he was in the military, and so were some of
his disciples. And there, one day, three of his disciples were suddenly surrounded by the enemy on all four sides, and they knew they were going to be killed, so they sat together and prayed: “Baba Ji, this is the time when we are going to be killed by the enemy. As a last resort, we want to pray to you. Please take care of us and take us to Sach Khand as soon as we die. Please help us.” At that time Baba Ji appeared almost in a physical form standing right in front of them, and he said, “Don’t worry. You are not going to die today. Don’t worry. There is behind this small tree a little bush. Under the bush there is a tunnel. If you go in the tunnel, you will go behind the enemy lines and just escape. Go and take the tunnel and come out, and I will see you,” and then he disappeared.
They marveled at the power of the master that he could do this. They looked behind, and under the bush there was a tunnel. They went through the tunnel and escaped, were not killed. They were so grateful to the master for sparing their lives. They ran to him and said, “Master, thank you very much for saving our lives.” He said, “What happened?” They said, “You came and you told us about the tunnel, and we came.” He said, “I know nothing about it. I was not there. I was myself very frightened of being killed myself. What are you talking about?” They said, “Master, you yourself came to us. We saw you. All three of us saw you! Not only we saw you, you directed us to a tunnel nobody could have known, and you saved our lives. Don’t be so humble and pretend you don’t know.” He said, “The truth is I don’t know. That masters know nothing.” Then he made general statements that masters really come as projections of the self, and the whole secret is in the self. Whatever you will find you will find within yourself. Even the radiant form of the master that you find is within yourself. And therefore, why masters appear outside is to generate the kind of faith that you can discover who you are and go within. Therefore, he said, “I know nothing. Masters know nothing, and if a master says he is doing everything, he is no master.” He made such dramatic statements which led to a lot of controversy. Do masters really have any power or are they mere shadows of the self and they just are projecting themselves to take you inside—and the whole secret is inside?
This question about Baba Fakir Chand, who people say was the only honest master because he confessed that he knew nothing. All others claimed that they have all the powers of a master. They say he is the honest master, but then they question, “What about all the other perfect living masters who initiated people, and the people saw their radiant forms? And didn’t they really see the radiant form of the master? Didn’t the master have any hand in it?” As it happens, I have met Baba Fakir Chand personally several times . He was our neighbor in Hoshiarpur. My father was teaching there. He was a good friend of my father, and we met him several times. And we even discussed this incident with Baba Fakir Chand personally, so I have some personal knowledge. And he explained why he said all those things. He said, “The reason I say this is because, when people begin to follow masters, they don’t do any meditation. They think just following that person is good enough.” Therefore, he overemphasized the fact that the truth lies within yourself. Even the master lies within yourself. After all, all this creation that we see outside is a projection from inside. If the whole creation is a projection from inside, surely a physical master is also a projection from inside, which means the truth is that the perfect living master we talk about is inside us, not outside, but we cannot see him. If we close our eyes, we see darkness. Therefore, the projected master who appears outside functions exactly like the master inside. And yet at the same time he is just a shadow of the master inside. He is not only a shadow; he is a very active shadow because by listening to him, by following what he says, by getting initiated by him, we find the true master within ourselves. Therefore, at all times the true master is within us. He emphasized this point that he knew nothing just to make a point that, “Don’t follow human beings just blindly. Listen to what they say. Follow what they are saying,” and you will find the truth inside, including the true master, because the radiant form of the master is the master who takes you back home, and that radiant form of the master is inside us, not outside. But he resembles the one outside so much that we can have a link. Why does he resemble so much? Because he is outside. He is the projected form outside. Therefore, it’s very difficult to say, “Which one should we follow—the outside or the inside?” The fact is we should follow the inside. Can we follow the inside without the outside? No way! Then it comes back to the same thing, that we have to follow a physical living master outside who can talk to us, who can teach us, who can answer our questions, who can guide us, who can tell us when we are wrong and when we are right on the path, who can tell us all the details of the journey we are going to have, who can encourage us to go within, who can time and again help us with the means to go within, but after he has done all that, we find that the master who will be with us for all time and is permanent is inside us. And that’s the radiant form of the master we find within ourselves.

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