I answer questions about the once-churched me

I was planning to write a blog post about another subject tonight.

But, hey, when someone leaves a comment on an Open Thread that focuses on me, wanting me to answer some questions about me, suddenly I found this topic a lot more interesting.

I'll put "Cell's" words in italics and my response in normal type.
------------------------------

Brian, may I ask a few questions of you? I would just send you an email, but I think that some external input could be helpful, too.

No problem. I love questions. Especially ones I can answer.

Since they're about me, that's a subject I have quite a bit of familiarity with. Concerning "external input," you've already gotten some responses from a few of the churchless regulars. I agree with most of what they said, but will answer you in my own words here.

Might I ask you what your intent was when going into Sant Mat? Were you looking for God, or were you looking for the spiritual experiences associated with Sant Mat? I mean, the whole point of RSSB is to merge back with God; was that what you were looking for? Some of your posts confuse me about this. You seemed to have expected to ascend to the higher regions, to have out-of-body experiences, and to achieve God-realization within this lifetime.

Yes, your last sentence sums it up pretty well. This is what Sant Mat, Radha Soami Satsang Beas version, is all about.

One of the first books I read way back in 1970 was Julian Johnson's "Path of the Masters." I loved his descriptions of how it was possible, supposedly, to zip around in the astral and causal regions, learning the secrets of creation, one's own nature, and eventually God.

In the Sant Mat philosophy, spiritual experiences are necessary before merging with God. It isn't like Buddhism, Taoism, or Hinduism, where enlightenment can be (or is) a shift in consciousness that doesn't necessarily (or usually) entail mind-blowing mystical sights, sounds, and such.

Not everyone is so lucky. I've met several people that are spiritually realized, and I wish that you had the chance to speak with them. For some reason you've only come across those poor people that, for some reason, haven't had success in their meditation.

How could you tell that these several people were "spiritually realized"?

I've talked with lots of people who are on a path that is claimed to lead to spiritual realization. I've had a number of face-to-face meetings with gurus who were/are considered to be perfectly god-realized (Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh).

I can't tell the difference between a spiritually realized person, and someone who isn't. In fact, I don't even know what "spiritually realized" means. What do you think it means?

Regarding your statement about poor people who haven't had success in their meditation, I also don't know what you mean by "poor." I'm one of these people, if you define success as soaring into higher regions of reality and coming face to face with God. But I don't feel poor, lacking, or disappointed.

Again, I don't know anyone who has had the sort of success in meditation as defined above. Do you? And how would I know if I did come across such a person? Do they have some sort of identifying mark?

Also, on the point of meditation; did you love the Master when you where following the Path? Did you have faith? I question this because your critical thoughts have to have been brewing for a long time. Perhaps you went into initiation before your intellect was truly satisfied.

I'd say, "yes, absolutely." In thirty-five years or so of devotion to my guru and Radha Soami Satsang Beas, I shed a lot of tears that sure felt like they sprang from love; and I engaged in a lot of voluntary service that sure felt like it sprang from love. 

I had almost complete confidence, or faith, that I was on the right path until... I didn't. Getting initiated by a guru and getting married have a lot in common. For me, the two events happened about the same time (1971 and 1970, respectively).

When I got married, I thought it would be for forever. Ditto when I signed on to follow the Sant Mat path. With my first marriage, I got divorced after nineteen years. With Sant Mat, it took quite a bit longer. In each case, the love was genuine. Until it wasn't. People change. My wife and I grew out of love. Ditto with Sant Mat and me.

I wasn't critical of Sant Mat for at least thirty years. For sure, I was a true believer during that time, circa 1970 to 2000. When I met Laurel, who I married in 1990, she tried to raise questions about the perfection of the "perfect guru" and other Sant Mat truisms. I was unshakable. Until... I started shaking.

One more question; why do you even have this website? You know that the only resistance that you shall receive will be from initiates that haven't gotten very far (no offense, folks. I'm not even initiated m'self). People that are actual sants won't reply to you; they don't care.

I started this blog after George Bush won re-election in November 2004. The rise of the fundamentalist religious right in the United States bothered me, big-time. I wanted to strike a blow for open-minded, non-judgmental, science-centered spirituality. After almost five years I'm still blogging along.

I no longer know what "spirituality" means, though, which I consider to be progress rather than retrogression.

I don't worry a whole lot about who likes this blog, and who doesn't. Having written several books, I've learned that if I try to cleverly write for other people, rather than from the honest core of myself, both my writing and my enjoyment suffer.

Okay, just one more question; how can you deny the spiritual experiences of tens of thousands of people? There are satsangis that have had success, you're just not looking for them, are you?

Who are these people? What experiences have they had that you call "spiritual"?

I met countless satsangis (RSSB initiates) during the thirty-plus years I was an active member of the organization. I'm not sure what you mean about "not looking for them" -- those who supposedly have had success, spiritual experience-wise.

By the end of those years I was interacting with some of the highest of the higher-ups in the Radha Soami Satsang Beas organization, including the guru himself. Don't you think that I would have encountered spiritually elevated people through these interactions?

What I found, though, was that those who had spent the most time around the guru, and had done the most meditation, seemed to be just as human, flawed, and imperfect as I was. I don't know whether they had any marvelous mystical experiences. How would I?

What I do know is that I couldn't see any sign that they'd become more warm, loving, generous, happier, or compassionate. This helped lead me to question the wisdom of sticking with spiritual practices that didn't seem to produce positive effects in people, even after a long time.

I submit these questions with the utmost respect, Brian. Your choices are just that; your own.

On that we agree. And on other things too, I'm sure.

I'm convinced that people are much more alike than different. Religion, like other "isms," tends to divide us -- since religious believers cling to ideas and concepts rather than directly experienced reality.

Since I've embraced churchlessness, I feel quite a bit closer to other people. I no longer think of myself as belonging to any special group.

Except those who live in Oregon -- which obviously is the best state (except to those in other parts of the country who have a different view of obviousness).

Comments

[Jeremy]

Interesting. Re spiritually realized souls, I had an audience with Charan Singh in 1989 at the Dera. I had a problem. I told him about it and he replied "attend to your meditation brother. I asked for something more specific and he looked sad and said "attend to your meditation, brother, there is no other way." I was disappointed and resigned at the time as I had already been doing hours and hours of meditation daily for several years and had spent most of my time at the Dera in meditation.

Now of course I know why he gave me that answer. It was because he was not God-realized and had no clue on how to help me. Needless to say his trite response did not help me and the problem remained, to be sorted out by myself years later after he had passed away.

[David]

And what was this problem?

[CH2]

Brian:
"Don't you think that I would have encountered spiritually elevated people through these interactions?"

***Hummm......Why did or do you assume that?

Brian: What I found, though, was that those who had spent the most time around the guru, and had done the most meditation, seemed to be just as human, flawed, and imperfect as I was.

*****So? I take it you assume proximity should slather one with spiritual ambergris or something? Why would proximity gift one with any de-flawing, necessarily?

Brian:
What I do know is that I couldn't see any sign that they'd become more warm, loving, generous, happier, or compassionate. This helped lead me to question the wisdom of sticking with spiritual practices that didn't seem to produce positive effects in people, even after a long time."

****Isn't the more meaningful inquiry this: if you, Brian, became more warm, loving, generous, happier and compassionate with them "highest of the higher ups"? Did you? If not, why not?

I hope you do not delete this, but just in case I will make a copy so that I can post it over at Dave's Yahoo Group, along side Manjit's. (joke)

[Blogger Brian]

CH2, why would I delete your comment? I only delete comment "spam" and personal attacks.

Regarding your questions, I attended many large gatherings of RSSB initiates. I talked with many people at these gatherings. I figured that if spiritually elevated initiates were to be spotted, this would be how one would do it. But maybe the spiritually elevated hide out in caves, or something, while the unelevated go to gatherings.

Sant Mat in general, and RSSB in particular, places much emphasis on the benefits of association with the guru. His "darshan" (look) is supposed to have considerable power. Initiates are encouraged to have as much contact with the guru as possible. So it seems reasonable to assume that those who have hung around the guru more, would get more benefit from this association.

Did I feel that I was more warm, loving, happier, and compassionate than the "higher-ups"? In a way, I did, because I wasn't trying to play the role of a spiritually elevated person. I often had the feeling that they were, owing to the positions they held in the RSSB organization. People who try hard to appear loving, humble, and all that often have an artificiality about them that is off-putting.

This led to a realization that I too could benefit from being less tied to an organization, and more churchless. And this has turned out to be true. I don't feel the separation from other people that I did before -- that sense of "I'm part of a special group." I just feel like a human being who is trying to make sense of the world and live pleasantly, just as everyone else is.

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Blogger Brian,

You said,"Sant Mat in general, and RSSB in particular, places much emphasis on the benefits of association with the guru. His "darshan" (look) is supposed to have considerable power. Initiates are encouraged to have as much contact with the guru as possible. So it seems reasonable to assume that those who have hung around the guru more, would get more benefit from this association."

............You are slightly wrong. The people in close proximity to the master need not to be the best of all. It is the association of radiant form of the pupil and that of the master which is important. If one gets a chance to have darshan of the physical form of the master, it is good for the practioner of the meditation. Only master exists for the pupil. When simaran is complete, dhyan begins automatically. When dhyan is complete, dhun begins. One need not to stress oneself or look for anything in the darkness at third eye.

Duration of completeness of simran varies from indivudual to individual, there is no time limit. So is true for dhyan and dhun.

You are a learned person. I am in no way trying to teach you. I just felt like wrting this.

with regards

[tAo]

Rakesh,

You said that it is "the association of radiant form of the pupil and that of the master which is important".

-- Alright, could you please explain how you know there is this "radiant form"? Where is it, what is it, and how can you be sure that it is real and that it is what you believe it to be ? Please describe how you know this. Thanks.

"Only master exists for the pupil."

What do you mean by "only the master exists" ?

"When simaran is complete, dhyan begins automatically. When dhyan is complete, dhun begins."

How do you know that? How do you know that to happen as you claim ?

"One need not to stress oneself or look for anything in the darkness at third eye."

And where is this "third-eye" to be found, to be located, to be perceived ?

"Duration of completeness of simran varies from indivudual to individual, there is no time limit. So is true for dhyan and dhun."

Alright, could you then please explain what exactly determines this presumed point of reaching a "completeness" ? How is that to be perceived or known ? Thanks.

[yogi]

Tao sir,
could you share your agenda for being on this blog.
How much time do spend in spiritual practice daily?
Commonsense is not the whole of everything. It gives us the right direction but not the results. Effort is the second thing required.
So, please share the results of your efforts not your commonsense only.
We want to know about you(not personal details)i.e. your personal vision, personal practice, your experiances and finally your hopes about the results of your endeavours.
We want to know how happy you are throughout the day? What turns you on and off?
How much time have you set for yourself to reach your destination?
How good student you are in life will give an idea how good Master you can be.
See you,
Junoir,
Yogi

[Greg]

Great article!

J. Johnson set everyone up who read his book for failure by providing unrealistic expectations. I have no reason to doubt his personal experiences were valid, but he also failed to say something like "this happens only to the very few."

My personal (non-Sant Mat) meditation has been successful in part because I haven't expected bells and whistles. All I know is that my mind slows, that that feels good, and it definitely helps me to manage daily stress. Yes, it's a whole different way and type of meditating, but it works well for me. I haven't had any specific material transcendence, but I enjoy this life I have been given much more so and, in a sense, any desire for transcendence may actually be weakened because I am more at peace with my here and now.

I've discovered that, for me, my intent in life is not happiness or, necessarily, spirituality, but peace. If I ask which of these is of primary importance, peace comes out on top. Happiness is fleeting and no one can achieve happiness all the time over many years. Peace, however, can indeed be chronic.

Hines says:

"those who had spent the most time around the guru, and had done the most meditation, seemed to be just as human, flawed, and imperfect as I was. I don't know whether they had any marvelous mystical experiences. How would I?"

Indeed! I understand the reasoning behind RSSB forbiding discussion of personal experiences, and yet it also conceivably has created a situation where throngs of initiates all
over the planet could be having grand and glorious experiences and yet those "unsuccessful" ones would never know it. On the other hand, if no one AT ALL has had such experiences no would ever know ... like playing charades in a black room!

[tucson]

It makes sense in RS that initiates are forbidden to discuss their meditation:

"How was your meditation today?"

"Wonderful. I heard the bell sound and saw the radiant form."

"Wow. You are really lucky. You have only been initiated for 11 months and already you are having these experiences. I have been at it for 8 years and so far nothing. Not a beep or a glimmer."

"Oh you poor fellow. Well, don't worry. When the time is right and your karmic accounts are balanced the master's grace will descend upon you. Keep at it. Your day will come. If not in this lifetime maybe in the next or the one after that. We must be patient in these matters. Master always knows best."

---Obviously many of those not having experiences are going to feel envious and inferior to those soaring through the astral in the satguru's cosmic wake. On the other hand those having such experiences may tend to feel superior and special and perhaps fall from grace due to an inflated ego.

Now the cynic would say that it makes sense that the master forbids discussion of inner experiences. He wouldn't want the word to get around that very few, if any, were having grand inner experiences of celestial grandeur and thus start raising doubts in the sangat. Not good to have defectors from the family business.

[Catherine]

Two things for Greg:

First: There is a written account of an initiate who had 'gone inside' then keeled over inside the gates of the Dera. The writer makes it clear that no-one at the Dera had gone inside in those days, (quite honest and significant) so they didn't recognise that he was in such a state and threw him out. The people of the Dera were not even thinking along the lines of- well maybe he's in Daswan Dwar.

The best way imo to know if anyone is progressing is to see it by how they have overcome their deep seated bad habits and tendencies.

Second: Didn't the illustrious Julian Johnson come to a rather unillustrious end? Can't remember what it was, but it seemed at odds with his proclaimations. Johnson had a change of scenery late in life with his trip to India and he was on an adventure. He was a writer with a penchant for exaggeration and a need to impress those back home. Those days the development of knowlege of Guruhood was fairly new and what a stately guru he had! He needed to believe wholeheartedly. He also had a lot of boring time on his own, so why not write copiously as if he was at the top of the tree- the very best person with the very best people as well as with God. Sawan was magnificent looking and had Godly grace to boot. In those days I would also have been taken in.

I really only felt that I'd reached adulthood when I begun to realise that I had to take full responsibility for my actions, not be a little child handing over to guruji. That time did have it's place though. I think the term for what I try for is, Self Actualisation.

[CH2]

CH2, why would I delete your comment? I only delete comment "spam" and personal attacks.

*** depends what one considers a personal attack. Some have a very narrow lane.

Brian: "Regarding your questions, I attended many large gatherings of RSSB initiates. I talked with many people at these gatherings. I figured that if spiritually elevated initiates were to be spotted, this would be how one would do it. But maybe the spiritually elevated hide out in caves, or something, while the unelevated go to gatherings."

******Funny. And interesting. I've been to many RS events. However, I never cared to wonder if those attending were elevated or not. How would an elevated soul appear or interact in your estimation ?

Giving it a bit of thought though, I figure that an RS gathering isn't a place to spot an elevated soul. I’d figure myself a better chance of elevated person spotting at a horse race, or maybe Home Depot in the lumber section. I imagine the Divine as far too whimsical and playful to be nailed down to sending Elevated Ones to organized gatherings. I imagine the Divine as Churchless. But! One never knows

Also, to a small extent, I am acquainted with the Western seva personages at Dera. Most are vigilant about keeping their seva. And it takes a special attentiveness, a furtive sensitivity to delicate politics. Given the assumption(s) of what/who the guru is, proximity to him, by virtue of seva, is an opportunity of galactic proportions. And that win is easily lost with one wrong move. Therefore, the priority is not to be your friend or anybody else. The priority is to please the guru and keep afloat. Possible collateral damage to anybody’s sensitivities is, I would guess, not the primary consideration.

Brian: Sant Mat in general, and RSSB in particular, places much emphasis on the benefits of association with the guru. His "darshan" (look) is supposed to have considerable power. Initiates are encouraged to have as much contact with the guru as possible. So it seems reasonable to assume that those who have hung around the guru more, would get more benefit from this association.

*****Initiates are encouraged to have as much contact with the guru as possible? For some reason I never thought that was the case, rather encouragement to do as much meditation as possible.

Personally, I never understood the benefit of associating with the guru without first being able to associate with myself. What baggage was I bringing to the association? Mostly the window to myself was/is piled deep with pitiful debris of self-deception. If I could get an honest look at myself I’d probably puke for days.

I’ve hung around Guru for many a session. It has not, to my knowledge, helped. I am still a schmuck. I figure IF he is Real, and has the Look to transform this Neanderthal, he can do it anywhere. Maybe Costco…while I am looking at avocados. I am a fool at RS functions; pretend to be more RS than I am. Really I need to find my clan-- put a Bear head on a stick or something and climb the mountain.

Brian: Did I feel that I was more warm, loving, happier, and compassionate than the "higher-ups"? In a way, I did, because I wasn't trying to play the role of a spiritually elevated person. I often had the feeling that they were, owing to the positions they held in the RSSB organization. People who try hard to appear loving, humble, and all that often have an artificiality about them that is off-putting.

*******So you think they tried to appear loving and humble? It never stuck me that they were playing a role of spiritually elevated persons. I just assumed they were as tired and flawed as anybody else on the planet…ya know human and aspiring to become a better human, etc. However, I didn’t have your more intense dealings with the Pubs. Dept. In fact I never had any dealings with them. Heard a lot of s--t though through the grapevine.

Brian: This led to a realization that I too could benefit from being less tied to an organization, and more churchless. And this has turned out to be true. I don't feel the separation from other people that I did before -- that sense of "I'm part of a special group." I just feel like a human being who is trying to make sense of the world and live pleasantly, just as everyone else is.

********See your point here. Walls both protect and separate. Sometimes a frightening move to climb over the habits and concepts that hold us captive. But needed.

CH2