Churchless folks have revelations also

When I used to give talks (a.k.a. satsangs) at gatherings of the India-based spiritual group that I was a long time member of, one of my stock lines was "The easiest vow for most of us to follow is the injunction not to disclose our inner experiences."

Ha-ha. Laughter would follow.

Because people knew that I was speaking the truth: meditation resulted in almost precisely zilch, nada, zero enlightenment or ensoundenment experiences (the practices of this organization were intended to bring about contact with divine light and sound).

So when the guru enjoined his disciples not to speak about their grand mystical insights into cosmic mysteries, this was a pretty darn easy commandment to obey -- given that nobody I knew was having any (we figured that it was OK to speak about not having inner experiences).

Since I entered my churchless phase, I've actually had more cosmic revelations. Which isn't surprising, since when you're starting at zero, the only way to go is up on the revelation scale.

Take today, an excellent day to take.

Sunny, warm, clear skies. Not at all uncommon during our beautiful Oregon summers. (As Gov. Tom McCall said, please, come and visit; just don't stay here.)

My wife, Laurel, and I were on a trail ride when IT hit me particularly strongly -- IT being a familiar sensation that waxes and wanes, but rarely leaves me entirely these churchless days.

Life...it isn't going to last forever. Not even close to forever. This moment, this view, this sensation of being on horseback, there's no way to value IT. Except maybe as infinitely precious.

This revelation, which many other people have also, is horribly devalued by religious belief. I know, because I used to believe that Real Life was going to begin sometime in the future, likely after I died and went to heaven (the Eastern philosophy equivalent, of course).

Or when the enlightenment curtain lifted in my psyche and I saw things as they really are, not as how my current deluded maya-encrusted mind viewed the world.

Not surprisingly, this there and then focus, which is a hallmark of religious belief systems, worked to dilute my appreciation of the here and now. Now -- what a beautiful word! -- I'm much more aware of how precious each and every passing moment is.

Because when my life is over, I no longer believe that more moments will be forthcoming.

Later in the day, on an evening dog walk, I spotted a busy bee. Firing up the ultra-zoom on my camera, I enjoyed capturing bee-moments as it flitted around the flower.

The insect had its thing to do. I had mine. Our moments intersected for a moment before we went our separate ways.

IT was present here also, that sensation of never again, so now! that seems to be amplified when I look through the viewfinder of my camera and press the shutter button.

I'm grateful for that feeling. I don't consider that it comes from anywhere but myself. However, there's plenty of room to bow down before the mystery of self.

No god is needed for revelations. Just an awareness of what is.

Comments

[j.tucker]

Brian, wonderfully existential.

[David]

I appreciate your independence and wish you the best. However, i strongly disagree with your continuous complaining of having no light and sound experiences in meditation. You may not like to hear this but it is the truth: you didn't try hard enough and you weren't ready.

Besides this, you also conveniently lie. You said you heard the sound of bells once.

So which way do you want it?

You will have people come along here and tell you that light and sound are just passing phenomena with no importance. But why do you fixate so much on this if you didn't truly believe it was important? It is important and you KNOW it is.

You have hundreds upon hundreds of posts to date, in which you continuously complain about a lack of experience in meditation. It is easy to see now that you are very bitter but you are still chasing for these experiences, which, by the way, you cannot refute.

I am sure it will continue in this way until you die or shut down this website, since you have invested so much in trying to debunk other people's spiritual experiences and you can't take it all back.

I do honestly think you have a split mind with a tendency to be cynical. Most atheists are like this. I believe it is a form of mental illness.

[Blogger Brian]

David, wow -- what a lot of bitterness you express.

By contrast, I'm not bitter about my previous RSSB involvement. I simply write once in a while about my experiences, and lack of them.

Along that line, I'm not a liar. I didn't say in this post that I never heard some bell sounds shortly after I was initiated. And in referring to other initiate's experiences, I said "almost precisely" zero.

Naturally we all were having some sort of experiences in meditation. I was referring to obvious "mystical" experiences.

I don't "complain" about a lack of mystical experience in my Sant Mat meditation. I simply describe a fact: I didn't have them. I don't know anyone else who has had them either. But maybe I don't know any enlightened initiates.

Gosh, I'm married to a psychotherapist. You'd think that my wife would have recognized my mental illness by now (twenty years). Laurel often says that I'm unusually positive and optimistic. One of her biggest gripes about me is that I don't worry enough ("that sound in the pipes... I bet it'll go away; no need to call a plumber")

I don't debunk spiritual experiences. I ask for evidence of them. I frequently point out that subjectivity is one thing, objectivity another. People may have all sorts of inner experiences known only to them. But if they claim these to be some sort of objective truth, evidence should be presented.

I like my spirituality to be as scientific as possible. I guess you feel otherwise. That's fine. We just have different outlooks.

[tucson]

David wrote to Brian: "You may not like to hear this but it is the truth: you didn't try hard enough and you weren't ready."

--First of all, how do you know how hard Brian tried? That's very presumptuous of you.

This is always the excuse in Sant Mat, that it is the disciples' fault for lack of spiritual experience. Their karmas are too heavy, or the mind wanders too much, or they are too involved in worldly pursuits, etc. etc. The gurus like to say that the satsangi is boring through a dark mountain never knowing how close they are to breaking through to the light on the other side.

Well, what about the Mater's promise in this so-called "science of the soul"? He says if you do your part grace will come. But what if you do your part for three or four decades without "results"? What if you spend your whole life without results? Not to worry says the master. No effort goes to waste. It will bear fruit in another life. How do you know there is another life? The master cetainly hasn't done anything to prove it to you, yet he expects blind obedience to his dictates.

You see, there is always some convenient excuse for the lack of success on this path and it is never due to a weakness on the part of the path or the master. After all, the master is perfect. Right? It never occurs to the devotee that the path is bogus. It is always something that is the matter with them and success is always just around the corner if they will just have faith and do their duty. What a load!!

I did Sant Mat meditation for a couple of decades without seeing any dweeps full of hansas or radiant forms. I never met a satsangi who had inner experiences either and some of them were very devoted to the principles and their meditation for decades. Decades!! Nothing!! Think about it. I know someone who meditated daily and stuck to the vows for 37 years. Now they are dealing with severe depression and mental illness. Just a karma rog you say? Is this where you would expect a devotee to be at after 37 years of meditation and seva?

The ball is in the guru's court. Holy dude, it's time for YOU to put up or shut up and quit this deceitful con.

[The Rambling Taoist]

Personally, I think revelations or epiphanies are much easier to come by in a churchless setting. You don't have to try to marry them to some dogmatic theme. You simply experience them and take them for what they are.

[Juan]

The Present Living Master,Don Gurinder Singh Dhillon is coming to Spain on Thursday ( surprise visit) to shower love,grace and his sweet words full of wisdom, understanding and patience.The information of his visit was made on Monday to the satsangis.

He has always been making few suprise visits every year to give the sangat much much more than they deserve.

He will be coming to spain in April next year as well,though he says clearly that nothing is going to happen by this outward Darshan,even then these Saints are very kind-hearted and take the trouble of travelling long distances to give darshans to the sangat, so they can seen the Radiant form of the Master inside.

Inspite of his blessings and grace on the Sangat, three SATSANGIS have committed suicide last month,one of them was a speaker (giving satsangs).Why? maybe their karmas.

[Suzanne]

Who wants a hug? Lots of isness and wonder and presence and whatnot in infinitely precious hugs!

[David]

As far as i can tell, this current "master" is simply a business magnate who has no spiritual experience whatsoever. Hence, anybody drawn to him seperate from the sant mat rules is just a loser.

And Brian still respects the guru who initiated him, Charan Singh. It is not actually possible for someone like Charan to dispense detailed meditation instructions unless he knew something of meditation, and Brian is in two minds here.

Tuscon, decades of meditation is indeed meaningless unless you mean business with God. I doubt you did and do.

I have nothing further to say to you. If you insist that karma doesn't exist, i can intellectually understand your position and discard it immediately. I'm sorry, but your insistance that pain, suffering and evil disprove the existence of God is simply non-intelligent, or baby thinking.

[George]

Tucson,

That is quite a thought. 37 years of beliving in something, which they've lost belief in. Not sure how anyone can be expected to follow with that sort of blind faith or how they deal with the fall-out in thinking their time could have been better spent.

That is madness, surely there must be something that keeps the satsangis at it with their devotion?

[tAo]

David,

I'm sure that you "may not like to hear this", and worse, that you will be quite unable to admit it, but that "truth" which you speak of, is actually that YOU have no idea as to what the "truth" is.

Thats because you simply know nothing about the extent of other peoples efforts in their spiritual sadhana and meditation, nor about their readiness. And the very fact that you make such blatantly presumptious judgements, shows just how lame and ignorant of "truth" you really are.

Also, you have absolutely no right to say that Brian has 'lied' about his experiences in meditation. As a matter of fact, its none of your goddamn business. Brian can say anything he wants to about his efforts or his lack of success at meditation. So who are you to judge him or his efforts at meditation?

You said: "You will have people come along here and tell you that light and sound are just passing phenomena with no importance."

Well that just happens to be quite right, to be correct. Experiences of light and sound and visions ARE indeed passing phenomena, and so thus they are also of no ultimate or lasting importance.

It is clear to see that it is really YOU who are the one who is unhappy and "bitter" here... and that is because it is YOU who "cannot refute".

So that's basically why YOU are "trying to debunk" other people's opinions, and their confessions and testimonies about their lack of mystical meditation experiences.

What a pathetically sore LOSER you are. So I have believe that it is really YOU who is the one in this case who has the "mental illness", and it is clearly not Brian.

You are just another typically dogmatic and brainwashed RS satsangi who can't stand that other people can actually think for themselves, and are not whiny little RS tit-suckers like YOU are.

In my opinion, you are nothing but a pathetic and predictable spiritual guru-cult mentality, which is precisely why you have no idea whatsoever as to what "truth" is really all about. Thats because you are in such denial and bereft of any real truth.

[Blogger Brian]

George, members of an organization, religious or otherwise, get a lot of benefits simply from belonging. How many people go to a church or other religious gathering just for spiritual uplift?

You see friends. Have social conversations. Share food and drink afterwards. Feel a sense of community. Are reassured that others believe like you do.

I can say, with 100% certainty, that members of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, as with other religious organizations, remain active in the group for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with experiences in meditation.

And as I said before, it isn't that experiences are lacking in meditation. So long as we are alive, we're always experiencing something. My 35-odd years of Sant Mat meditation were satisfying, or I wouldn't have kept meditating.

For example, I liked the discipline of it. I liked calming and centering my mind each morning.

David, I can't understand the thrust of your comment, so it's hard to respond to it. I have fond memories of Charan Singh. I don't know what you mean about dispensing meditation instructions. I could dispense such instructions, but that doesn't mean I've attained the state that the instructions supposedly lead to.

For example, here's instructions as to how to climb Mt. Everest: start at the bottom and get to the top. Disclaimer: I've never climbed Mt. Everest, and you might need more details to make the trip successfully.

Lastly, tuscon wasn't saying that pain and suffering disprove the existence of God -- not at all. He said that he knows someone who meditated diligently for 37 years and now is mentally depressed.

[tAo]

"As far as i can tell, this current "master" is simply a business magnate who has no spiritual experience whatsoever."

-- Well now David, you sure got that one right.

"Brian is in two minds here."

-- No, nfortunately its YOU who are the one who is the schizoid here. In fact, when it comes right down to it, you are really rather a JOKE.

"decades of meditation is indeed meaningless unless you mean business with God. I doubt you did and do."

-- Again David, you don't shit about anyone else. You can "doubt" all you want, but who are you anyway? Your rather stupid opinion holds no weight.

"i can intellectually understand your position and discard it immediately."

-- Well that sounds like "non-intelligent, or baby thinking" to me.

[Roger]

Tucson, you are a baby thinker?

That line was so funny, thanks to David for the laughs. I think, I will sleep good tonight.

[tucson]

David replied: "Tuscon, decades of meditation is indeed meaningless unless you mean business with God. I doubt you did and do.

--You think anyone who does decades of meditation is not meaning business? Again, you make the assumption that I did not "mean business with God". You have absolutely no knowledge of my effort or devotion on the Sant Mat path. Your statement is fatuous and indicates a lack of critical thinking ability which may be why you are a guru cult follower.

"I have nothing further to say to you."

--Just for the record. It's ok if you change your mind.

"If you insist that karma doesn't exist, i can intellectually understand your position and discard it immediately."

--I never "insisted" karma doesn't exist, but there is no evidence any RS guru has any influence or control of their followers karma as they believe.

"I'm sorry, but your insistance that pain, suffering and evil disprove the existence of God is simply non-intelligent, or baby thinking."

--What? Where did I say anything of the kind? As far as I'm concerned pain and suffering neither prove nor disprove the existence of God.

George,

Remarkably, the person I spoke of still has faith in Sant Mat although their ability to participate has been hindered by their current state of mind. This person admits to never having any experience of inner light or sound after all these 37 years of meditation and never breaking any of the vows.

I think what keeps people like this going(with the Sant Mat path) is habit, denial and fear. Fear of the supposed consequences of not doing their discipline and fear of being left without a belief system to hold on to should they face and admit the obvious.

[tAo]

Hey Juan,

Would you mind not preaching YOUR Radha Soami beliefs here? News info is one thing, but preaching and promoting RS and its guru-cultism is quite another.

Brian has asked everyone, and that means people like YOU, to please refrain from this kind of preaching.

Such as, you said:

>> "The Present Living Master,Don Gurinder Singh Dhillon is coming [...] to shower love,grace and his sweet words full of wisdom, understanding and patience."

>> "He has [...] visits every year to give the sangat much much more than they deserve."

>> "these Saints are very kind-hearted and take the trouble of travelling long distances to give darshans to the sangat, so they can seen the Radiant form of the Master inside."

>> "Inspite of his blessings and grace on the Sangat"

...and last but not least:

>> "three SATSANGIS have committed suicide last month,one of them was a speaker (giving satsangs). Why? maybe their karmas."

-- Cut the crap Juan. Trying to blame every damn thing on somebody's "karma" is bogus. It's bullshit. Those people commited suicide because, no doubt, they were mentally ill... and their involvement in the RS cult could have (may have) been an influencing factor. And I would not be surprised if it was.

[tucson]

Juan wrote: ">> "He has [...] visits every year to give the sangat much much more than they deserve."

--Why is it much much more than they deserve? Do you equate them to lowly sinners like followers of Christ? They are the ones who pay for his visits, via seva donations, on his private jet and the satsang centers where the visits take place. I would ask why does Gurinder Dhillon deserve what the sangat provides for him?

[tAo]

FYI "Neut er all",

# 1.) I did not "tell others what they can or cannot post". I simply expressed MY own objections to preaching.

# 2.) And, Brian has already made it quite clear that he does not want preaching here, and I was merely echoing that.

# 3.) I can post "an almost complete copy of the post" that I am commenting about, if I so choose to, and its none of your damn business. It's none of your concern what comments I post copies of. Moreover, you don't have to read my comments if you don't want to.

So crawl back down into your dark deceiptful troll-hole where you belong Mr. Tony Jonnes, RSSB satsangi and troll from Puerto Rico. You ain't foolin nobody.

[Dan]

Bullies and trolls (jerks) behave as they do because it makes them feel powerful when deep inside they really feel impotent. They enjoy the feeling of being able to make people react without having to pay any consequences. Hence, they are actually cowards. Bullies and trolls have very low self esteem and often think that what they do is the only thing they are good at. Some do it because they want attention when otherwise they would not get it. Often, bullies and trolls are jealous of the people they are hassling. Some may be being bullied themselves, maybe at home, or by their boss or by life in general where they have failed to meet its challenge. Bullies and trolls are unhappy within themselves and think that taking it out on other people will make them feel better. But in the end nothing changes the fact that they are losers and it is they who ultimately break down and are defeated.

[Catherine]

David, it is necessary to have a blogg like this and to sustain it, simply because it shows people that there are options. For me, reading the history of Sant Mat ( not a very long one) was enough to convince me that the ground it was built on was unproven and questionable. I would not have had the option of this realisation, if I had not accessed David Lane's book via the internet.

I like the well maintained RSSB premises still and wonder if in some instances such belief systems and even serfdom for a time is not a good thing in such an environment where extreme poverty might otherwise rule.

I enjoyed the period of having an immaculately clean, graceful believed/ perceived god in human form to protect me and the first 10 years of RSSB meditating bolstered my life. Thereafter it was obvious that I vegetated there and had to move on. The History of the path spoke sufficiently.

I am constantly amazed with all the fanaticism that goes on that Brian and others are so outspoken.

[George]

Brian,

"How many people go to a church or other religious gathering just for spiritual uplift?"

--- Yes, such a social ritualistic approach might well be the hook for some, but others i've spoken to prefer a more personal sacred approach to RS.

It may be that neither achieve mystical experiences, but it may also be that it is precisely the devout approach thats needed to achieve such experiences.

I don't know. I personally don't believe RS has the rituals of traditional religion tho sadhanas and guru proclamations comes very close, but alarm bells do go off whenever a faith-based belief-system has teachings advising away from discussion.

Then again surely the correct way for religion to be practised is privately, rather than the overbearing proselytizing which brainwashes so many.

Perhaps this fundamental conflict between being open-minded as to accepting new beliefs lies at the heart of creativity, as compared to the more conservative skeptical stance that requires evidence, and perhaps this struggle is indemic to our individual phsychological make-ups.

Tucson,

That is remarkable. i can see why such unquestioning belief becomes habit and leaves many dissillusioned, leaving many to question such cult-like affects.

Many consider such mindless faith to be a sort of virus, a disease or a 'metal illness' as tAo puts it. I don't know, the mind seems to have a natural predisposition for fantasy, but is also capable of rational thought.

Pop psychology has the archetypes of left and right-brained thinkers, with individuals supposedly gravitating one way. Artists and creative types have little interest and aptitude in science and logic, or vice versa. However, human minds seem naturally capable of both approaches for viewing the world, and perhaps a balanced approach is most fullfilling since both the aesthetic and the intellectual appear to make up our humanity.

[tucson]

George wrote:

"--- Yes, such a social ritualistic approach might well be the hook for some, but others i've spoken to prefer a more personal sacred approach to RS."

--This is true. There are all types of RS devotees, some social and superficial, others devout and serious, and others in between. Some shoot right out the door after satsang and others can't wait to get their lips flapping with everyone as soon as the meeting is over.

"It may be that neither achieve mystical experiences, but it may also be that it is precisely the devout approach thats needed to achieve such experiences."

--Yes, "awakening" comes spontaneously, but it is often after or during a period of some sort of discipline but this is not a prerequisite.

"I don't know. I personally don't believe RS has the rituals of traditional religion tho sadhanas and guru proclamations comes very close, but alarm bells do go off whenever a faith-based belief-system has teachings advising away from discussion."

--Having been involved with RS and going to the compound (dera)in India twice I can say that RS does indeed have its rituals and protocols. They are not overt in the same way as Catholicism or Tibetan Bhuddism but they are there nonetheless. A simple example is the almost compulsive hands together "radha soami" greeting satsangis give each other at every opportunity. I got sick of that very early on.

By the way, to anyone who cares, the comment above by "Dan" at 4:01pm was put up by me. I was experimenting with the name and email fields and forgot to change them back.

[David]

My understanding of things is that there are experiences that cannot be explained, whether you believe in God or not. It is safe to meditate without belief since most of the effects happen by themselves. So perhaps a type of self hypnosis prevails in some people's meditations that gives them experiences others don't have. Also, different types of meditation produce different results. A Hatha Yogi will mainly experience lights and sounds, while a regular meditation only routine will provide other experiences.

What is not clear to me is why Brian claims to have got nothing from meditation at all. I find that too hard to believe.

As far as Tao is concerned, i will not respond to him. Sorry Tao. NO offense, but you have a chip on your shoulder and your buddhist beliefs don't help it.

I am not convinced that paranormal experiences do not exist. Perhaps there are only a few instead of many. But what seems to be definitely true is that nobody knows God. In this, i am collaborating with Brian.

[Blogger Brian]

David, I've tried to be clear that I do feel that I got benefits from my many years of meditation, just as I'm still getting benefits: relaxation, concentration, thought-clearing, and so on.

I just didn't get the Big Mystic Benefits that were promised, or forecast: being immersed in cosmic light and sound, rising to higher realms of existence, traversing time and space in my astral form, meeting the guru's "radiant form," and such.

[tAo]

David,

You certainly don't have to respond to anyone's comments, but the reason that you have stated as to why you refused to respond to me, is clearly just evasion and avoidance on your part.

You said: "you have a chip on your shoulder and your buddhist beliefs don't help it."

-- Well that ("a chip on your shoulder") may be your perception about me, but it is not necessarily true, and it was definitley not my motivation for my comment to you. I simply did not agree with you about Brian, and I felt that you were qite incorrect with regard to your assessment of Brian.

Also, you made another assertion about me, about my supposedly having "buddhist beliefs". You are wrong about that. I have no such "buddhist" beliefs. But perhaps you would please indicate specifically what it is that you assume are these "buddhist" beliefs, so that we can determine what exactly you are referring to?

It's one thing to respond to someone who has actually stated their beliefs, but it is quite another thing to claim that someone (like myself) has beliefs that they do not have (as you have done).

So please kindly indicate precisely what are those beliefs that you are referring to? Otherwise, I will have to conclude that you are just making stuff up, and then falsely claiming that it belongs to me.

You also said to someone else: "I am not convinced that paranormal experiences do not exist."

-- Well I don't remember that anyone here ever said that "paranormal experiences do not exist". Many of have had paranormal experiences, and freely admit that. So no one is saying that they do not exist. However, what HAS been said about that is that, paranormal experiences are subjective and so they can not be used as substantial objective proof.

[Jake L]

[Jake L, why don't you try leaving another comment that isn't a personal attack? Challenge the message, not the messenger. Comments need to be related to the theme of a post, and yours wasn't. -- Blogger Brian]

[tucson]

As tAo has pointed out David tends to attribute statements and beliefs to people that they never stated or professed. He did the same thing in response to one of my comments. I don't know if he is confused or dyslexic or what but if he should respond again please be advised of this pattern.

[David]

You are probably confusing me with someone else. I believe there is another poster with my name.

I don't think there is any need to get into a semantic game here. Dogchen comes from a Buddhist perspective. So when i say that tao has buddhist beliefs, this is what i mean. if you want to quibble with the word belief, go ahead but i am not going to respond.

So what if there are no objective standards for paranormal phenomena? Actually, there are. You need to go to the right sources instead of parroting skeptics.

Brian, if you experience thought free states of awareness while meditating then you have good reason to continue and this is actually a good experience. I just believe that there is more to it than this, and for whatever reasons you do not seem to be able to access them.

I am not involved with anything Sant Mat. Whoever made that observation was wrong.

[Manjit]

[Manjit, I've edited your comment to leave in the substantive comment, removing the irrelevant personal attacks. Sorry for the delay in editing. Yesterday I was checking comments via my iPhone and unpublished your comment in its entirety because editing is difficult on an iPhone. Didn't get around to the editing until today.]

Dear David -

Imo, a genuinely knowledgeable person or master of Dzogchen would absolutely obliterate a master of Shabd Yoga in debate, understanding & experience.

In fact, the history of tantra and mystical practice demonstrate this unambiguously. Shabd Yoga was considered inferior to Dzogchen meditation by the very first people/groups in India to practice & write about both - the Kashmiri Shaivists/Tantrics/Buddhists.

[David]

When i read what you wrote the first time, i was struck by how profound and agreeable i found it. But the 2nd time i read it, i felt sorry for you.

You really need to get a grip on reality and stop parading nonsense like Buddhism is the only way to "truth" like your religious brothers of the same ilk. It only leads to slander and then war.

Keep war in mind.

[Blogger Brian]

David, try reading what I wrote a third time -- maybe it will return to sounding profound and agreeable to you.

I fired up the "find" feature on my web browser and searched for "Buddhism" on this post and comments. The only reference to this word is in the comment above. From you.

I don't consider myself to be a Buddhist. A Taoist maybe, because I think "Taoist" sounds cooler than "Buddhist."

I'm confused. Who are my "religious brothers of the same ilk"? I don't know anyone who has the same outlook on life as me. If you could point them/him/her out, we could get together and form a club of some sort.

I have no idea what you mean by "slander" and "war." Please explain (if you can). Plus, how many wars have Buddhists started recently? Or, ever?

[tucson]

David,

There you have done it again, ascribing beliefs to others they have not professed. You stated...

"You really need to get a grip on reality and stop parading nonsense like Buddhism is the only way to "truth" like your religious brothers of the same ilk."

1) WHERE has anyone on this blog stated "Buddhism is the only way to truth"?

2) WHO are these "religious brothers of the same ilk" as Brian?

3) WHAT is "religious" about Brian and his so-called ilk?

--It appears to me your mental filter needs a cleaning. Prove me wrong.

[tAo]

The following was posted by someone who called himself David on August 26, 2009 at 09:59 AM:

"[...] As far as Tao is concerned, i will not respond to him. Sorry Tao. NO offense, but you have a chip on your shoulder and your buddhist beliefs don't help it."

HOWEVER...

The very next day, subsequent to the above comment, someone also named "David", posted another (very similar) comment on August 27, 2009 at 02:00 AM

This second "David" said:

"You are probably confusing me with someone else. I believe there is another poster with my name. I don't think there is any need to get into a semantic game here. Dogchen comes from a Buddhist perspective. So when i say that tao has buddhist beliefs, this is what i mean."

Now this is curious, because if these two Davids are supposedly two different people as the second David would have us believe, then why does the second "David" again make the same assertion that I (tAo) have "buddhist beliefs", and even goes further to say: "Dogchen comes from a Buddhist perspective. So when i say that tao has buddhist beliefs, this is what i mean."

-- So clearly, these are not two different Davids, as the second David would have us believe. Because the second David affirms the first David when he says: "when i say that tao has buddhist beliefs, this is what i mean."

So its obvious to anyone reading this, that both of these Davids are the same guy taking the same position and making virtually the same point.

So when the second "David" says:

"You are probably confusing me with someone else. I believe there is another poster with my name."

Well then he is either lying or trying to pretend as if he did not make the previous comment, the comment that was made by the first "David".

This kind of stuff is utterly juvenile. David attributes statements and beliefs to people that they never stated or professed. This guy David literally makes stuff up, and then he falsely attributes his made-up stuff to other people, and then even worse, he claims that he did not even make that comment - that 'someone else' said it... and then finally, he repeats what he said in the the very first place.

What outrageous bullshit! What a load of rubbish and nonsense.

This guy David is, unfortunately, acting like another jerk. Yes that's right, acting like a "jerk". Making up stuff and trying to pin it on other people, and then saying that someone else named "David" said that, and then repeating the made-up stuff agin... well imo, that is being a jerk.

So David, you've all but lost your credibility. Unless you can somehow explain yourself out of this one... but unfortunately, as far as the facts and the record shows, you can't. Better luck next time. And try not to be such a jerk. LOL !!!

PS: David also said: "if you want to quibble with the word belief, go ahead but i am not going to respond." -- Well David, go ahead and take your toys and go home if you want to. You are acting way too immature for this forum anyway. But hey, I'm open-minded enough to be still willing to hear an explanation about all this if you want to try to give us one. So here's your chance David.

[Blogger Brian]

tAo, you're correct. I looked at the comments for the seven days and only one unique person has been posting as "David." So it sure looks like David wasn't telling the truth. Not unusual troll behavior, of course. I find it interesting how people like David love to criticize the immoral godless churchless folks, then lie their way along while they're trying to disrupt this blog.

[David]

I have seen someone else using my name in the past, not neccesarily the last 7 days.

That was what i was referring to.

Honestly, if you believe i am trying to critisize you i think you are mistaken. Nothing i have said is troll behaviour unless you deem it to be in which case perhaps we should really try to discover what the word troll actually means. If, as i suspect, you believe a troll is someone whom you just disagree with then i suppose nothing can be done about it.

[Blogger Brian]

David, thanks for the clarification. It did indeed seem that you were the author of all of the recent "David" comments.

No, "troll" doesn't mean someone who disagrees with what is said on a blog or web site. You can check out the Wikipedia article on this subject if you aren't sure what "troll" means.

The article, like me, considers that troll behavior is aimed at disrupting a blog or web site through various nefarious tactics. It has to be controlled, just as an obnoxious person in a physical gathering has to be controlled, or the people who are there for sincere, open, respectful discussion will find it difficult to do what they came for.

I never delete or edit comments just because someone disagrees with me, or anyone else. Never.

Personal attacks, rants about how useless this blog (or I) am, commercial or religious spam, impersonating other commenters -- that's the sort of troll comment behavior that isn't tolerated. Otherwise, I enjoy a good argument (or a good agreement), because that's often how we learn and grow.

[Suzanne]

You guys NEED a hug. Hug electronically delivered!

[Blogger Brian]

Suzanne, thanks. Hug received. Yes, some commenters on this blog need to relax and get in touch with their warmer & fuzzier side. I get passionate about arguing an issue, but then can leave it and move on to the positive sides of life. Some people, though, seem to be addicted to negativity.

[tAo]

David,

You are not necessarily a troll, but you still haven't explained why you keep on attributing statements and especially beliefs to other people (like me) that they have never stated or professed.

You claim that other people have particular beliefs, which in some cases they do not, and then you try to evade the fact that you made that claim, by saying that you will not quibble about beliefs. This is not fair to other people.

If someone actually states or admits that they have specific beliefs, then you are justified in attributing those beliefs to them. But saying, for instance, that someone like myself holds "buddhist beliefs" when in fact I do not, well that is false and misrespresenting. It is incorrect of you to attribut beliefs to other people which they do not profess.

Also fyi, dzogchen is not directly related to buddhism... it arose quite independently of buddhism, and it has nothing to do with buddhist beliefs. If you were at all familar with the origin and history of dzogchen, you would know that. So to claim that dzogchen is buddhism is wrong. So I would suggest that you not make such faulty assumptions, and especially about other people.

[tAo]

Keep those HUGS a'comin Suzanne. We need more love here.

And I send my warm hugs to you as well.

I love your blog too.

[Suzanne]

Brian - well, we need those crotchety old negative people to balance out our warm fuzziness. How would we know fuzzy, if not for scratchy?

tAo - I am honoured.

[David]

Probably because it is called "the IZZY and scratchy show".

[Juan]

Dear tAo,

The visit of Gurinder to Spain was merely an information for the readers and not to preach or promote RS.

I was curious to know the opinion of the readers regarding the suicidies comitted by three followers of RSSB,and to share with them the answers by Gurinder if ever the question is raised by some satsangis in the Q&A session.

[tAo]

Juan, well alright, if you say so. No problem.