A dialogue about Radha Soami Satsang Beas

A few days ago I posted a message from Shiloh, "The anguish of losing a loved one to exotic religion." That was part of my communications with her.

Here's the other part: a question and answer dialogue we had about Radha Soami Satsang Beas, the India-based spiritual organization that is the exotic religion Shiloh was concerned about.

We exchanged several email messages after Shiloh wrote to me, asking if I'd help her better understand the organization that I was an active member of for many years.

Here's our Q & A exchange, starting with some introductory remarks and moving to eight questions about Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

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Shiloh: I will be very grateful if you can help me with these questions, Brian, since I feel you are in a unique position to evaluate this movement with your years of involvement and the books you wrote associated with Radhasoami.

It seems to me that your seemingly ‘fruitless’ investment of thirty-eight amazingly patient years, has become an immensely valuable grounding for your post in its role of revealing to other seekers the pitfalls and time-wasting illusions of this particular path.

Especially since I dearly love and care about my sister, I personally feel deeply grateful for your openness and honesty about your experiences, which must ultimately save many souls much needless pain and confusion. So thank you for valuable work and whatever time and consideration you give to this particular letter.

Brian: No problem. Re. the paragraph above, I wouldn't say "fruitless." I gained a lot from my involvement with RSSB. For most of the three decades plus I was quite content. Sort of similar to my first marriage. Getting divorced doesn't take away all of the loving times. It just means that after the loving, a distancing occurred.

You might mean by "fruitless," though, that I didn't soar to higher regions of reality. If so, this presumes that such exist. Or that it is important to reach those realms to be "spiritual." Now, I'm not so sure. Some see this as sour grapes, a result of failed meditation. But to me it feels more like an understanding that inner and outer, spirit and matter, soul and body aren't so different. Maybe not different at all. 

Shiloh: Sorry you misunderstood me. I thought if I wrote ‘seemingly’  before ‘fruitless’ and encased ‘fruitless’  itself in inverted comas I would convey that this is not my personal feeling but how it could appear to others.

Here’s my questions, your answers, and my comments on your answers:

(1)  Is it true that one is required to pledge life-long loyalty to the Sant Mat master upon initiation?

Brian: Yes, this is true. It is supposed to be a life-long commitment. But of course, many initiates drop out along the way. Sort of like marriage. The vow is "till death do you part," but divorces are common anyway.

Shiloh: This ruling was surely designed to make any initiate wishing to drop out because of doubts, feel especially guilty and bad.


(2)  Is an initiate encouraged to meditate on an image – whether mental or photographic – of the master?

Brian: In the Charan Singh days, no. You had to have seen the guru in person. Then you could visualize his form (face/eyes) during meditation. This is part of the reason I went to the Dera in 1977, because I'd been initiated for almost seven years and hadn't seen Charan Singh in person.

Shiloh: Whatever the template used for this visualization, I find it suspicious, since in the pliable astral sphere, long-held thoughts become things. This tells me that disciples are being encouraged to build their own thought forms of the master which they could then see and mistake for his radiant form if they are ever successful in leaving the body.

Which further tells me that the master has no confidence in his own ability to appear in his light body to any out-of-the-body satsangis. This combined with praying for the Guru’s grace puts one in mind of the Christian biblical exhortation not to worship graven images.

(3)  Are satsangis encouraged to ‘pray’ to the master and to expect mental interaction with him about such petitions?

Brian: Well, not really. Surrender is encouraged more than prayer, in the sense of prayer being asking for specific things to happen. Praying for the guru's grace is encouraged, though. That's pretty much what meditation is about, in a sense. An initiate isn't told to expect a response to prayer. Certainly not "mental interaction."

Shiloh: Since one surrenders oneself to the will of the Guru and prays to him (if only for grace) the master clearly replaces God in the satsangi’s life, usurping what many would feel should be the Creator’s unique role in human lives.

(4)  Does the movement’s hierarchy hint at earthly or afterlife harm for satsangis who leave, thus ensuring uneasiness about ever leaving?

Brian: Yes. The idea is that once initiated, you're stuck to the guru/God forever -- the bulldozer metaphor that you might have heard of. Meaning, if you’re chained to a bulldozer, no matter how much you try to move in a different direction, you’ll end up going where the bulldozer does.

One RSSB devotee has been threatening me with Sant Mat hellfire for having questions about the path. I don't know about earthly harm, but lack of faith in the guru incurs some training/discipline after death, I seem to recall reading in some of the books.

Shiloh: This confirms my uneasiness about this movement setting up a premeditated trap, which the novice, after initiation, cannot easily extricate himself from emotionally. It seems to me that few uncertain souls (stressed-out and sleepless - especially at first - due to the long hours of meditation) would find the courage to risk such a fate no matter how disillusioned they may feel.

(5)  Are Kal and the mind used to dispel the disciple’s rational assessment of the master and his words and actions?

Brian: Absolutely. Questioning is supposed to happen before initiation. Afterwards, the initiate is warned to beware of Kal, the Universal Mind who stood on one foot for eons and earned the right from God to rule the lower regions of creation. (Shiloh: Great heavens! How spiritually athletic!)  Kal's job is to keep souls here, and the mind is his means of doing so.

Shiloh: I rest my case. The above-mentioned attitude nullifies the checks and balances ingrained into our very souls to guard against deception. Willfully giving up the critical mind must indefinitely commit one to labor, with dwarfed mentality, through a spiritual never-never land where the only hope of eventual rescue is through painful disillusionment. Since my sister defensively denied that there was any such requirement, she obviously knows, deep down, how dubious this is.

(6)  Do you know of anyone who has seen (first hand) the current master accompanied by machine-gun-bearing guards?

Brian: I went to India, to the Dera headquarters of RSSB, in 1998 to finish my book Life is Fair. While there, I saw Gurinder Singh walking around accompanied just as you said, by machine gun bearing guards. It was a bit surprising. But also understandable, given the tensions in the Punjab.

Shiloh: I agree. But only because I think the master is a mere man and not God.  If I thought he was God, seeing him protected by guns would blow my mind: after all how could God protect anyone else if he could not protect his own incarnated form without physical guards bearing material weapons?

I cannot imagine how this behavior squares up with those believing him to be God. Further, if God is love why would he even attract enemies? After all, Jesus’ death was apparently destined to save mankind and he did not arm himself against it but offered himself up to those who wanted him killed. And if God, embodied as the present guru, wanted to remain on earth longer, why couldn’t he make his earthly instrument safe without the offensive bad-example use of weaponry? After all no one is holding a gun to his head! (Or are they?)

Thinking of the current master as a man, I’ve just experienced my first pang of empathy.  I believe he was a reluctant successor – and  how terrible it must be to have to spend your entire life pretending to be God. How ghastly must be the constant scrutiny and the act of putting on a holy front and the continual dread of doing or saying something ungodly?

Hold on: even if any mistakes are made, the secret of his true human identity would remain safe with so many adoring satsangis primed to put a profound spin onto any awkward accidents! There seems little room for truth in god-man movements.

(7)  Is it true that satsangis are subtly pressured to donate money or property to the movement?

Brian: In my experience, subtly. Not overtly. I don't know what it is like in the Indian community.

Shiloh: I’m glad you mentioned the latter since I suspect that pushing for donations might be more easier and acceptable among faith based, notoriously blindly-believing Asian communities, and thus may be much more blatant there. This of course reveals the usual motive behind so many religious charades: money and possessions and the power that accompanies these things.

(8)  Is it an observable fact that the current master lives lavishly and travels in luxury?

Brian: Don't know if you have read the post on my blog by the Caribbean guy. Here's a link. He addressed this subject.

Shiloh: Thanks. Having now read this, I must confess it confirms my early belief that the current master seems more preoccupied with physical pleasure and material possessions than with the spiritual evolution of his fellow man.

Comments

[tAo]

Shiloh: "Since one surrenders oneself to the will of the Guru and prays to him (if only for grace) the master clearly replaces God in the satsangi’s life, usurping what many would feel should be the Creator’s unique role in human lives."

-- Not exactly. The master is generally presented as being a bridge TO God, but at the same time also as an embodiment of that same Godhead in the form of the shabd. But since so much emphasis is placed upon the incarnate form of the master, then the transcendent God does sort of fall into the background.

[tucson]

I would like to make a few remarks regarding the exchange between Brian and Shiloh. I applogise for pasting in lengthy quotes of their exchange but it is only because I want to emphasize the significance of what they said.

Shiloh: "Whatever the template used for this visualization, I find it suspicious, since in the pliable astral sphere, long-held thoughts become things. This tells me that disciples are being encouraged to build their own thought forms of the master which they could then see and mistake for his radiant form if they are ever successful in leaving the body."

---In Sant Mat meditation there is a supposed safeguard aginst this sort of self-deception. The satsangi is told to repeat the holy names as a test any time an image of the master appears before them in meditation. Illusory/false/self-created (or Kal the negative power) images of the master are said to disappear when the names are repeated. What remains is to be believed as genuine. I am merely repeating what was taught for the sake of clarification.

I think the idea is that any subconscious thought forms would be nulified by the mind being engaged in repetition of the names, aka simran. Also, it is taught that one should "follow" the sound current regardless of any appearances or other content in awareness as this is always to be regarded as genuine and therefore beneficial and pretective especially if the form of the master is simultaneously present.

Brian: "Absolutely. Questioning is supposed to happen before initiation. Afterwards, the initiate is warned to beware of Kal, the Universal Mind who stood on one foot for eons and earned the right from God to rule the lower regions of creation. (Shiloh: Great heavens! How spiritually athletic!) Kal's job is to keep souls here, and the mind is his means of doing so."

Shiloh: "I rest my case. The above-mentioned attitude nullifies the checks and balances ingrained into our very souls to guard against deception. Willfully giving up the critical mind must indefinitely commit one to labor, with dwarfed mentality, through a spiritual never-never land where the only hope of eventual rescue is through painful disillusionment. Since my sister defensively denied that there was any such requirement, she obviously knows, deep down, how dubious this is."

---This is an astute observation by Shiloh of one of the most sinister aspects of Radha Soami where one is told to literally surrender and ignore the natural rational reasoning function of one's mind. This is very dangerous and a typical technique in cult mind control.

Further as Shiloh indicates: "Hold on: even if any mistakes are made, the secret of his true human identity would remain safe with so many adoring satsangis primed to put a profound spin onto any awkward accidents! There seems little room for truth in god-man movements."

---So true. One time after an initiation in India the master had a bad cough and cold. It was beleived that this illness was due to the master "taking on" the karmas of the disciples he had just initiated.

Shiloh: "(6) Do you know of anyone who has seen (first hand) the current master accompanied by machine-gun-bearing guards?"

---When I was at the Dera in India in 1984 there were problems in the Punjab and threats against the master. I personally saw armed guards posted throughout the Dera. However, they were armed with rather antiquated looking guns and not modern assault rifles or machine guns.

Shiloh: "(7) Is it true that satsangis are subtly pressured to donate money or property to the movement?:

---Westerners are not pressured to donate money in my experience although it is definitely considered a good thing to do. During both of my visits to the Dera (1974 and 1984) I was never asked or pressured for money in any way.

However, I have heard the opposite is true regarding Indians and that they are more aggressively asked to donate. I think Shiloh's observation below regarding this is probably accurate. I have heard a number of satsangis report the same thing.

Brian: "In my experience, subtly. Not overtly. I don't know what it is like in the Indian community."

Shiloh: "I’m glad you mentioned the latter since I suspect that pushing for donations might be more easier and acceptable among faith based, notoriously blindly-believing Asian communities, and thus may be much more blatant there. This of course reveals the usual motive behind so many religious charades: money and possessions and the power that accompanies these things."

Shiloh wrote: "Thinking of the current master as a man, I’ve just experienced my first pang of empathy. I believe he was a reluctant successor – and how terrible it must be to have to spend your entire life pretending to be God. How ghastly must be the constant scrutiny and the act of putting on a holy front and the continual dread of doing or saying something ungodly?"

---I think this is exactly the case not only with the current master, Gurinder Dhillon but also with Charan Singh, his predecessor who actually ran away for awile when told he was the newly appointed master.

However, as Shiloh finally stated: "Having now read this, I must confess it confirms my early belief that the current master seems more preoccupied with physical pleasure and material possessions than with the spiritual evolution of his fellow man."

---I think this must be true otherwise he would come clean and admit that he is just an average schlub just like the rest of us. That would free people from bondage to this false, in my opinion, path to spiritual liberation, and what really is simply a very prosperous family business and perpetuation of the feudal system in India.

[Dogribb]

Phil "It all made sense to me, and given that the principles are presented as scientific, able to be verified through experiment, there was most definitely an appeal."

Exactly !Though I had to add my own dose of fantasy and magical thinking.Amazing but somehow I consented to believe all this.How?and why? are still interesting ? for me

[albert]

Matter and surat are antithetical to one another. The greatest delusion and biggest lie is to equate the two as one. They are not. Matter absorbs Surat. Surat is the only conscious life within us, but we know it not. Matter is so alluring that we equate our worldly desires and call them "spiritual". All the while, the Surat is being forced outwards into greater depletion and diffusion. Concentration alone is the source of all bliss and happiness. But that concentration must be of Surat and is completely internal. You are all wasting your time, energy and noble faculties in this endless display of opinion and attempts to unify that which cannot be unified - Surat and matter are enemies. If you do not see this clearly, you are in delusion. Seek a Sant to differentiate and separate these two irreconcilable essences of creation.

[Blogger Brian]

albert, in some ways you've got a nice Buddhist/Taoist outlook, which I mostly share -- aside from the notion that matter and consciousness (surat) are enemies. That's too dualistic.

"Irreconcilable essences of creation"? Sure sounds strange that reality is composed of two irreconcilable aspects. What idiot creator would create in that fashion?

Plus, so long as we are alive, our consciousness is part and parcel of our physical being/brain. So there's no way to tell if consciousness can be separated from the matter of our brain until we're dead -- and then, of course, we can't communicate that fact to living humans, unless one believes in mediums.

That said, you do make a good point in this sense: psychologically, we get all identified and tied up with things and other people, not realizing that all these impressions are objects within the subjectivity of consciousness. So if I get a scratch on my new car, it hurts me! Almost as if my own body was scratched.

Meditation can help us relax and see that all the thoughts and emotions and such that roll through our minds are ever-changing, while the consciousness that is aware of this stuff remains the same. That can be a valuable thing to do.

But in my opinion you go overboard when you speak of consciousness and matter being enemies. If you didn't have a physical brain made of matter, you wouldn't be alive and able to post your comment about consciousness and matter being enemies.

[tucson]

I have a couple of questions for Albert.

He said:

"Surat is the only conscious life within us, but we know it not."

---If surat is our life and consciousness how can we know it? Who is the "we" that would know what our life and consciousness is? In other words if surat were to know itself which surat would be the real one...the one knowing or the one known?

"Seek a Sant...."

---How does one know if a Sant is a Sant or not?

[Account Deleted]

ooh!!

Forced to back again!

I thought to stick to my words and thought not to come back at all!!

But brian has not deleted the post with 5 names he mentioned which i told him to do so.

And i see again theres lot of mispresentation going on,which is not acceptable at all.

shiloh brian is not at all in any unique position to evaluate!! he is just into a confusion state of mind...

how can you refer him to be in unique position
who has meditated and followed the path for 30 years...

who even wrote a fantastic book on spirituality.

and now he doesnt follow it or do not believe it..its his choice..

but you can not depend on views of such persons who are not that capable enough to understand themself...and how then they can make others understand.

i even read phil story once again today
and i really feel sad for him though..

theres is no point in thinking or creating hype that why people join rssb and why they leave
theres is no point in asking them why you were singing songs of rssb when you are associated and when you are not you all are bashing
no point in asking these questions

as its very simple...everything happens for a reason and no one has the hold on their own lives..

brian never thought he would one day get connected to any spiritual path..but he did..
he never thought one day he will be out of this path but he did?

so every thing happens for a reason..

may be his duration was limited..

like i many times said not every person who enters in oxford comes out with flying colours
some student fail
some student reach to the highest grade
some are average
some are ok
this is just a matter of destiny...

but what is strange is when they start criticizing the same path which once they followed with devotion...

well this the main weakness of american people they are always rational,reasoning and analyzing,

i really feel sad when they even mispresent jeuses,
i really feel pity on them
when i see this selfish corrupted americans
uses the name of jesus and trying their best to convert religions
millions of innocent,illiterate indians were converted into christianity because they were fooled by this corrupted so called fathers
who openly states that jesus is only the god no one else..
so so much pity i feel on them....

one of the most corrupted mentality is of US people..they are all selfish..too cunning too clever..

they are so very much jealous of others fame..
they just cant take it that many westerners are getting converted into spirituality.
turning down to being vegetarian..doing yoga...

and tucson..you said how do one know to seek sant..

well when the disease comes the patient knows when and to which doctor he has to consult..

so when you would be hit by any want...need..pull for spirituality you would definetly automatically will get into it..

no one can force nor can plan to get into any spirituality path..its is mean to happen and it happens..

brian never thought any day internet will be avaialble so easily that one day he would be starting a blog like this
it was meant to happen and it happened.

we cannot solve every questions and get the answer through words or through this sessions...

just by saying burger burger you cannot fill you stomach...the stomach will get filled once you attend a bakery shop and eat the burger ...

so its all self experience...more the doubts..more the questions..more the questions more the distractions..

if a women gets pregnant she is meant to follow certain restrictions and precuations..
but some times according to somebody immune system or body habits they cannot or able to follow the restrictions and hence the result is abortion...

they get aborted..

but who with patience and preservance follow the complete restrictions and taken proper care as per the doctors advise after 9 months she after going to a great labour pain delivers a child...

everything has a process..
but i m really feeling pity on brian ..
he i do not know..how misunderstood this path..

anyways tucson..when times come everything start happening automatically..

we have no control on our lives at all..

and TAO PLEASE STAY AWAY FROM MY POST I WOULD NOT WANT YOU to react OR REPLY TO MY POST

[Blogger Brian]

Manish, I see you're back to making no sense. Once again, you forgot to say anything reasonable. What in this post did you disagree with, and why? Focus on a few statements that you feel are wrong, and give good reasons (not preachy reasons) why you're correct. That's how a dialogue works.

It's interesting. You believe in obeying a guru, and following someone else's authority. But you are big on telling other people what to do. You want me to delete a blog post that you don't like. You want Shiloh to keep her views to herself. You want tAo to not comment on what you said here.

That's a lot of unreasonable wanting. I also have to point out that your metaphors are unreasonable also. I'm planning to write a post today about how religious people love metaphors, because they distract attention from uncomfortable facts. Like, the truth of religious beliefs.

Example: I ate a vegetarian hot dog at the Oregon State Fair yesterday. Yes, Manish, everybody realizes that you don't stop being hungry by saying "hot dog, hot dog." But I could see the hot dog on the grill. I could hold the hot dog in my hands.

That's a lot different from God. There's no demonstrable evidence of God, so naturally all people can do is say "God, God." The words don't refer to anything known to be real, like "hot dog" does.

[tucson]

Manish said: "we have no control on our lives at all.."

---That must be why you are trying to control others...you can't control yourself.

[tAo]

Manish has stated the following:

"TAO PLEASE STAY AWAY FROM MY POST I WOULD NOT WANT YOU to react OR REPLY TO MY POST"

-- Manish, you apparently still do not understand the very basic fact that when you post anything on a public message board such as this one, anyone can reply to your comment. If you do not wish others to respond to you, then don't post comments. So its absurd for you to demand that other people do not reply. There is something fundamentally flawed in your thinking process that makes you assume that you can post your own views and opinions, but yet demands that others should not do the same.

"brian has not deleted the post with 5 names he mentioned which i told him to do so."

-- Manish, this is Brian's blog, so he can do as he pleases. Its really none of your business to try to censor what he posts. Why is it that you feel that others (like Brian) do not have the freedom to say whatever they want, or that it is somehow taboo to discuss or reveal a mere five simple sanskrit words and syllables?

"i see again theres lot of mispresentation going on,which is not acceptable at all."

-- Who says that it is "misrepresntation", or that it is "not acceptable"? You are saying that, but this is not your blog site. You don't have to accept it, but you don't get to determine that for others. Here again, you seem to feel that you have a right to control, to deny or suppress what other people say, yet you yourself want the freedom to express your own opinions as if it is the only truth, and what some other people say is not the truth. So your thinking is out of balance.

"brian is not at all in any unique position to evaluate!! he is just into a confusion state of mind."

-- That may be your opinion, but it is definitley not the case with Brian. Brian has as much (or perhaps even more) capability to evaluate as anyone does. And the one who clearly appears to be in a state of confusion is you Manish. Thats quite obvious considering the faulty thinking that is revealed in your comments.

"how can you refer him to be in unique position who has meditated and followed the path for 30 years."

-- That's a pretty darn good "position" if you ask me.

"you can not depend on views of such persons who are not that capable enough to understand themself."

-- How do you know that Brian does not "understand" himself? You don't. You simply don't like people who don't follow and believe in Santmat & RS exactly like you do. Again, this is an irrational and unbalanced mentality.

"i even read phil story once again today
and i really feel sad for him though."

-- But other people may actually feel sorry for you. Why do you assume that your opinions and feelings are the only valid ones?

"theres is no point in thinking [...] why people join rssb and why they leave"

-- Thats just means that there is no point for YOU. But then why have you ;previously asked other people why they left RSSB if you don't care?

"you all are bashing no point in asking these questions"

-- But yet you are "bashing" people who chose to leave RS. So you have a double standard.

"everything happens for a reason and no one has the hold on their own lives."

-- That is merely your opinion. And I for one, do not at all agree. You may not have any "hold" on your life, but I very much do have a fair degree of hold on mine.

"so every thing happens for a reason."

-- Does it really? Perhaps, but then perhaps not.

"this is just a matter of destiny."

-- But who are you to say what is "destiny"? How could you know that?

"what is strange is when they start criticizing the same path which once they followed"

-- There is nothing "strange" about that at all. People change. Life is change. Everything changes. And people can and do change their beliefs and the course of their lives. It happens all the time. If you can't undertand that, then you have a long ways to go.

"this the main weakness of american people they are always rational,reasoning and analyzing"

-- You have no ability or right to criticise the whole of the American people. You have no experience to make such a judgement. And furthermore "rational, reasoning and analyzing" are all good qualities and abilities.... which you apparently seem to be lacking.

"i really feel pity on them when i see this selfish corrupted americans"

-- You don't know any such thing about Americans. And moreover, there is much to criticise about Indians, so its pretty stupid of you to attack Americans so ignorantly.

"millions of innocent,illiterate indians were converted into christianity because they were fooled by this corrupted so called fathers who openly states that jesus is only the god no one else."

-- But thats exactly the same as what the Radha Soami religion states as well.

"one of the most corrupted mentality is of US people..they are all selfish..too cunning too clever."

-- Your ignorant ANTI-American atttiude has no place on this blog. Its the same as if Brian or I or others were to say that the people of India "are all selfish..too cunning too clever". Its nothing more than derogatory nationalistic and racist bullshit. If you can't confine your comments to the topic ata hand, and you are going to post anti-american racist crap such as this, then you don't belong here.

"they are so very much jealous of others fame. they just cant take it that many westerners are getting converted into spirituality."

-- What "fame"? Most Americans by and large don't care about eastern spirituality. They mostly are all christians and jews or atheists. Nobody in America is jealous or threatened by indian spirituality. They aren't even really aware of it. So you are terribly mistaken and ignorant about this.

"how do one know to seek sant.. well when the disease comes the patient knows when and to which doctor he has to consult."

-- That example is not necessarily so. People who have disease do not automatically know who is a good docor and who is not. But in the case of spirituality, this example does not really apply, because there isn't necessarily any such spiritual "disease" in the first place, so no doctor or guru needs to be consulted.

"so when you would be hit by any [...] pull for spirituality you would definetly automatically will get into it."

-- That is not cecessarily true either. Just because people have interest in spiritual matters, does not mean that they must "get into" anything.

"to get into any spirituality path..its is meant to happen and it happens. [...] it was meant to happen and it happened."

-- To say that something (such as getting into a spiritual path) is "meant to happen" is only an relative assumption. And so it doesn't really have much, if any, significance.

"just by saying burger burger you cannot fill you stomach."

-- No one here has said that you could ("fill you stomach").

"the stomach will get filled once you attend a bakery shop and eat the burger"

-- But that is already quite obvious to everyone, so you aren't saying anything new.

"more the questions..more the questions more the distractions."

-- I disagree... and my RS initiating guru Huzur Charan Singh disagreed with you as well. Many times he affirmed the value and benefit of asking questions. As a matter of fact, he welcomed questions. So your rahter misguided attempts at suppression are fundamentally wrong.

"i m really feeling pity on brian ..
he i do not know..how misunderstood this path."

-- Brian doesn't "misunderstood" the path at all. Brian knows and understands the RS path extremely well. And so do I, and that is precisely why I can see this about Brian.

"we have no control on our lives at all."

-- That is not so. YOU may not have control over YOUR life Manish, but others do have relative control over theirs.

[Dogribb]

Based on the quality and character of Grads from RSU .....They would have lost their accreditation years and years ago.But like pears soap they remain in the market place if not for anything else but tradition

[Cell]

I think Baba Ji was justified in having that bee hive destroyed. It posed a threat to people, and it had to go. It's not like an ant; ants can't do the damage that bees can do. Just my $0.02.

[tAo]

Cell,

But obviously people (like this "Baba Ji" fellow), are definately a "treat" to the bees. Do the bees not have a right to live? What gives this "Baba Ji" any right to destroy THEM? Are we to assume that the bees have any less right to exist and live than we do? Your rationale is self-centered. If the bees were hurting people, then they could have been carefully removed by bee-keepers and taken elsewhere. I don't know all the details, but just saying that something "poses a threat" is not sufficient. If HUMANS posed a threat to bees (which they obviously did in this case) then does that give the bees the right to deatroy humans, if they could? There needs to be more than just a 'possible' threat. There needs to be a good reason. And it still doesn't require killing the bees.

So I don't agree with either you, or with this "Baba Ji" character. If this "Baba Ji" was truly a "sant", as you more or less indirectly implied on your other post, then he would have been reticent to have any creatures destroyed, and especially not BEES. Unless of course it was a dangerous rabid wild dog or something similar.

[sapient]

Hi Manish,
You are making one more assumption that all the people who question RSSB with open-mind are Americans. FYI, I was born and brought up in India, have seen creepy RSSB people since childhood and am pretty convinced now that it is a CULT !!

[Account Deleted]

my dear adorable sapient..
ur name sounds very much indian like
SAPERA,
anyways i m not an anti american..please i have mentioned abt the few americans who are really corrupted and little small minded people..

and dear grown up my sweets..
questioning and bashing both are different aspects..
questioning is right
but asking a right decent question is right
but not criticizing,ok dear,

and yeah ofcourse there are millions of anti rssb in india itself..
holy my dear holy

even in my own known relatives i have anti rssb..but thats none of my business,

and i expected the same reply from tao and i m least bothered by that silly crap person..i m not going to reply or pay attention to any of his post..he is just meaningless person i came across through out my life..

tuscon please grow up my dear buddy
i m not controlling others ..
i m just telling what i know ...
and as i know here there is only one point of view...no one is ready to believe others...
especially this blog will never believe or trust RSSB followers..

brian you always surprise me..
i really wanted to know how your parents bought u up and how you grown which schools you study which company you shared..

you r very smart and talented,but sorry to say you are lost in illusions..your lost in mind satisfying battle..

you asked me to prove how i m correct..
well brian for that answer ..you need to believe me
you need to understand me
you need to trust me have faith..
but you people have one point conclusion
dont believe and listen to rssb followers
then how can i make you understand regarding any issue over here..

always you say my post make no sense..
where as i feel the same for you...

yes i wanted to delete that post because ,it was me for whom you have posted that post
so i can request you to delete it..
and i m not saying anything about any other persons here..

well about tao not commenting on my post is my opinion and my liberty to state,its upto his wish whether he follows or not..
because he is an unreasonable,very foolish and silly person i came across i do not want to waste my time for him..

rakesh ji and george will take care of tao and they are taking very well taking care of tao comments...

you people always look for proofs..
you people always want proof..

well until now what i have felt is something i felt very long back..

making you people understand ..is not really easily possible
because no one of you from this blog is ready to agree with any other person..

and you people are only trying to criticize rssb,nothing more..

criticizing is normal..but there should be a valid resons..and valid points..
whatever ones feel ...he cant just write it away..

everyone cant see the things and understand..

on seeing a half glass filled with water
some said its half filled
and some said its half empty
now both the statments are true..

but from different point of view..
so valid statments are accetable..

but bashing any path..is unacceptable..
that too for not knowing the entire truth..

look my dear brian
its not necessary that what one see is true
whats one hear is true...
what experiences people had through RSSB cannot be true..

because onething is really fake..the story about babani..
i said it already i m very well known to babani...his story was fake..
100% fake..

sometimes..mind plays the game ...actually mind is playing the games all the time..

brian right now i need to leave..
i will be off for some more days..

and theres not much left right now to say
as whatever is said here..will be just one sided...

you anyhow will not believe or agree what ever i say..

and you need proofs..thats not possible..

because proofs arent required..where there is trust and belief..

proofs are only required for weak hearted and little minded people..
who do not know to believe.trust.agree.to others.

well like you planning for a new post..keep on planning and waste your time.

i m also soon planning to open a new blog..
which will 100% related connected with churchless
but i m finding and searching for a name
can you give me any idea

like
worthless
meaningless
senseless
or church of churchless where everything is less..

or churchloss from the chruchless

[Juan]

i m also soon planning to open a new blog..
which will 100% related connected with churchless
but i m finding and searching for a name
can you give me any idea

like

SACCHA GURMUKHI

[Your Agony Aunt Catherine]

Shiloh, thank you for the very clear, straight-forward questions and comments; and also Brian for your sane answers.

Shiloh, maybe your sister wants to get away from the known and the logical for a while. There's a fair amount of discipline which in a way a person wants before they come across sant mat. Another thing that she may seek is peace and quiet, a connecting with things foreign, a distancing, new beginnings, neighbourliness, shared hardships and experiences with people working towards improving in a non-material way,... all that and maybe the promised ultimate truth too.

Maybe she just wants to experience something away from the family grip; perhaps she wants sense to be put firmly on the back burner. Whatever the case, she won't respond to your efforts to persuade her otherwise through logic, because hers is a different way of thinking. She is never-the-less your sister and she will know when and if she has had enough.

One way or the other, she will have had a unique experience and view into a different take on life.

[Vikas]

Shiloh,

"pushing for donations might be more easier and acceptable among faith based, notoriously blindly-believing Asian communities, "

Go to RSSB or stay away. Listen to Brian/Tao/Tuscon or to Manish Arora... but please please desist from stereotyping communities.

What you are trying to suggest is that Asians are not intelligent enough (like westerners) because they will swallow any nonsense hook line and sinker?

May I request you on behalf of all dumb Asians that you watch what you write.

On the larger question of donations I have checked with people who frequent RSSB in India and there is no subtle or overt hints at asking for donations from anyone. It is not 'prescribed' as I have been given to understand.

In any case from a business point it would make no sense to give up the Dollars, Euros and Pounds and settle for Rupees. If it is purely a commercial enterprise then why invite/host Brian, feed him, give him a place to stay and then send him back without expecting a penny. It just doesn't add up.

[tAo]

"On the larger question of donations I have checked with people who frequent RSSB in India and there is no subtle or overt hints at asking for donations from anyone."

-- That is incorrect. Donations may not be being solicited at the RSSB headquarters (Dera) in India, but they definitely are in America and other parts of India. So your information is incomplete.

"It is not 'prescribed' as I have been given to understand."

-- That is false propaganda. They merely SAY that, but do not adhere to it. As far as I know, there is considerable evidence to the contrary.

"It just doesn't add up."

-- Thats because you simply don't know the whole story, the whole truth. Many satsangis have been pressured to give both money and property.

[George]

why do the hare krishnas solicit for cash at airports?

anyone?

[Vikas]

Tao,

Any basis for your assumptions:
1.
"but they definitely are in America and other parts of India. So your information is incomplete. "

I have been to a number of Satsangs accompanying my parents. Still drive my parents for the Satsangs held at Delhi/Bangalore (though I am myself not into it). There is no evidence I have seen/heard to support it. In any case a large number of people at these satsangs are too poor to contribute anything substantial. It may not even cover the cost of infrastructure built for the conduct of Satsang.

2.
"That is false propaganda. They merely SAY that, but do not adhere to it. As far as I know, there is considerable evidence to the contrary."

I don't about US but on issues in India please share the evidence.
My counter is that in all my visits there I have not heard anything about it - coaxing visitors to give or leaving it to their choice. Just heard nothing. I visit the satsang, give nothing and no one says a thing or flings curses at me. My parents, I guess, give and its their choice.

3.
"Thats because you simply don't know the whole story, the whole truth. Many satsangis have been pressured to give both money and property."

And you know the whole story, the whole truth about what happens in India sitting in another continent. Who are these many satsangis, how many is many and what is your source of information?

There is a very fundamental rule to a fleecing operation. Minimum overheads and maximum revenue. The evidence I have seen is against it. You still haven't answered my question:
Why host Brian, feed him, take care and then not ask for $$$ when he was most likely to part with them?
Why depend on piddly contributions by Indian disciples in Indian Rupees (to make the point clear the current exchange rate is Rs 48/49= $ 1)?

I am not zombie fan-boy of RSSB. This entire view is just to put things in perspective. Not everything about RSSB has to be sinister or evil. Don't criticize for the sake of criticizing.

Shiloh's reactions were a load of nonsense. Time permitting I will raise other issues.

[Juan]

why do the hare krishnas solicit for cash at airports?

There has been a change in the financing of the Ikscon and the devotees in charge of the centers have to fulfill their requirements without any financial assistance from the center, and in some centers the income is not sufficient to maintain the expenses of the center and full time devotees.

[Account Deleted]

tao you just meaningless asusal..
you speak about others without knowing anything.

and perhaps your knowledge towards RSSB is just nothing
you know nothing about RSSB..
thats already proved many times and is proved everytime while reading your post.

No one in the history of RSSB has been ask for charity..
its all individual choice..

but you do not know about the indians how rich they are
they love to give lots of charity for their beloved master but its all their personal choice no one is ask to..

i never in my life has given lots of cash as charity as my charity system is different and i do not want to share with you..

and there are many people i personally know give lakhs to rupees anonymously to DERA RSSB.

its all their love for the master..
who can afford to give ...he gives as per his convenience and who cannot they just do not..give it at all..

and you ask about property its all fake statements..
one of my relative was ask for a place from dera..they just asked that whether he would sell that place a piece of land for dera..

as he was a devotee he gave all the land for free...where just a piece of his owned land was sufficient..but he gave it the entire plot just for free...
he did so ..as its his love for the master..

and now a very personal point of view from the eyes of all true RSSB

when we love our parents and gift them things and in schools we love our teachers and gift our teachers presents we every time fulfill wishes of our children s...
when we are always exchanging gifts from relatives and friends..

Would not we love to give all we can,,to the master,who has given his own life for his devotees and who has given us the path of self realization..who have shown us the way back to true home..
whatever we give to our master will be less..

Tao i believe you are also an aged person..w
why are you wasting your precious time..on these blogs..
you will never gain anything....you have already given half of your life to rssb...now its time for you to realise your mistake
and get back to the real work with a fresh start..

god is love
love is god

he will forgive you...

[George]

juan

and how is this different from RS?
who have actually never solicited cash from airports?

[tucson]

In 1974 and 1984 when I was at Dera Baba Jaimal Singh I was never personally solicited or pressured for money "seva". However, it was made perfectly clear how to do it if you wanted to make a donation.

On the other hand, during the bhandaras (large satsang gatherings attended by 100,000-200,000 or more people) money seva collection tables were set up with long lines of people waiting to donate whatever they could afford.

In those days the exchange rate was 12 rupees to the dollar.

[tAo]

George asked: "why do the hare krishnas solicit for cash at airports?"

Juan answered: There has been a change in the financing of the Ikscon and the devotees in charge of the centers have to fulfill their requirements without any financial assistance from the center, and in some centers the income is not sufficient to maintain the expenses of the center and full time devotees.

-- Those are both incorrect. That is out of date info. Most HK devotees no longer solicit donations and distribute books at airports (and especially not in the US) They generally stopped doing that at airports many years ago. There may still be a tiny number of HK devotees who do go to some airports (in other countries outside of the US), but they do it independently of ISKCON and their temples. Also, airports in the US generally do not allow people to do that kind of thing anymore. However, HK devotees still do go out and distribute the Bhagavad Gita and other HK and Vedic books in other public places... but even then, they do that much less than they did in the past. As a matter of fact, nowadays, they get most all of their donations and funding primarily direct from their local Indian communities. The local Indian communities have more and more been their primary support and source of donations.

[tAo]

Vikas,

1. RS sangats in the US have on occasion pressured satsangis to do money seva (donations). Also, in India satsangis have definitley been urged to donate not only money but their property and real estate as well. And it is not the poor satsangis who are being pressured.

2. There have been many testimonies that indicate this is happening. Some were even posted on here awhile back. You can search for them on your own if you like.

3. Vikas said: "And you know the whole story, the whole truth about what happens in India sitting in another continent. Who are these many satsangis, how many is many and what is your source of information?"

-- See # 2 above.

Vikas said: "You still haven't answered my question: Why host Brian, feed him, take care and then not ask for $$$ when he was most likely to part with them?"

-- I have also been to the Dera several times as well, in the 1980s, and I too was not asked to donate when I was there. But I have never said that donations were solicited AT the Dera.

Vikas said: "Not everything about RSSB has to be sinister or evil."

-- I have never said that it was.

Vikas said: "Don't criticize for the sake of criticizing."

-- I haven't. I try to stick to the facts, but also my own opinions.

Vikas said: "Shiloh's reactions were a load of nonsense."

-- That's merely your own personal opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't have to agree with it, and I don't. Shiloh raised some good points, which are not "nonsense". And imo, your knee-jek defensiveness and your biased objections do not.

[George]

tao,

Sure, fair enough, i can buy that, but then what is different from RS who also rely on donations from the indian community or others?

as someone correctly pointed out above (whose comment has been wiped?), this very site advertises a "Teeny Tiny Collection Plate", presumably to support its operation.

Tucson made it clear that this seva was entirely voluntarily. if you ask me i think westerners are taking the piss going and living there for free, they should be charged at least for accomadation, and the money is used for the poor - whats wrong with that?

i think you guys go over the top sometimes with RS, hell i mean the HK movement has mantras, domgmas, divinities and ritual too.

[George]

and while i share your reservations that these may be cult-movements, its actually the HK movement that has some widely known bad press associated with it, there've child abuse and false imprisonment claims - have you heard of any abuses in RS? - i have not.

The other thing about RS is they dont annoyingly advertise and proselytize themselves remotely as widely as HK. In fact, i'd never even heard of RS, but everyone knows of the irirtating born-again christian or hare krishna marches whose overt happy-clappy advertising is so infurtiatingly irrating and often totally invasive.

[Blogger Brian]

George, yes, that comment was wiped because it was full of personal attacks. The "collection plate" mention wouldn't have made any sense once I edited out the crap.

Along that line, the collection plate link in the right sidebar heads to the Amazon listing for my book about the Greek philosopher, Plotinus. I can't recall the last time I got any money deposited in my account from someone clicking at that link and buying a copy.

Could be never. So I can assure you that the sum total of money I get from the Teeny Tiny Collection Plate is so close to zero, let's say "zero." This blog is completely non-profit. Or at least it would be, if somehow I made enough from it to cover my TypePad subscription expenses.

More accurately, it is less-than-profit, since I fork out money to keep it running. Almost all blogs are like this -- few make enough money from ads or donations to cover expenses, and I've chosen to do neither (ask for ads or donations).

[tucson]

George said:

"Tucson made it clear that this seva was entirely voluntarily. if you ask me i think westerners are taking the piss going and living there for free,"

--Yes the seva was entirely voluntary. In the old days you could go there, stay for months in a clean private room with modern plumbing, eat well, do nothing and pay nothing. However, most westerners did contribute monetarily. This was done privately so I have no facts and figures. No doubt some were generous and some not.

[George]

brian,
thats not my point. if you've taken the trouble to write a book and have your own website i personally see no problem with you advertising a link to it to support your costs.

My point tho is that it seems this is all that RS and HK are doing, which is to cover costs. i'm not much of a churchgoer, in fact, never, but when i did as a child we'd always give to the congregation since you'd be pretty sure that money was going to a good place - is that not the basic idea behind seva - to cover running costs and for the poor in the area?

Tucson,
Well i find that generosity from a country and region (punjab?) that really has nothing, quite incredible actually.

[tAo]

George:

"then what is different from RS who also rely on donations from the indian community or others?"

-- Huh? I did not indicate there was any difference in respect to donations.

"this very site advertises a "Teeny Tiny Collection Plate", presumably to support its operation."

-- Brian gets no donations, he pays for this site himself. And in fact, I myself have even been intending to send him 2O bucks to help cover his costs a little. But he probably doesn't even care anyway. So I don't think you or anyone else has any basis to say that about Brian. And there is nothing wrong with receiving donations. The issue here was about RS. Some people in RS have indeed pressured satsangis to donate both money and property... ususally under the guise of "seva".

"Tucson made it clear that this seva was entirely voluntarily."

-- Yes, by and large that is true. I have been to the RSSB Dera several times, and I like Tucson was never asked to give any money either. But that does not chage the fact that some satsangis outside of the Dera have been pressured in the past.

"i think westerners are taking the piss going and living there for free, they should be charged at least for accomadation, and the money is used for the poor - whats wrong with that?"

-- Nothing. I have no objection to that.

"i think you guys go over the top sometimes with RS, hell i mean the HK movement has mantras, domgmas, divinities and ritual too."

-- But this isn't about the Hare Krsna movement and their religios practices. That is an entirely different matter.

"its actually the HK movement that has some widely known bad press associated with it, there've child abuse and false imprisonment claims"

-- I am well aware of that. But those problems were confined to a limited number of individuals, and have nothing to do with the Hare Krsna spiritual teachings and philosophy. And the same applies to the Santmat teachings as well.

"have you heard of any abuses in RS? - i have not."

-- I think there may have been some abuses, but they have been ignored or concealed from the public.

"The other thing about RS is they dont annoyingly advertise and proselytize themselves remotely as widely as HK."

-- So what? RS doesn't generally preach to the public, but they do preach to satsangis and seekers. But again, so what? That isn't really the point.

"everyone knows of the irirtating born-again christian or hare krishna marches whose overt happy-clappy advertising is so infurtiatingly irrating and often totally invasive."

-- Christians can be very irritating, dogamatic, pushy, and especially judgemental with their beliefs, but I would have to disagree with you about the HKs.

The HKs do offer many public programs, but attendance is always voluntary and they are not at all "invasive". They actually go out of their way to be very nice and polite to people, in order to attract people to Krsna consciousness.

No donations are demanded or required, and they traditionally always offer lots of free Indian food to everyone at all their temples the world over. In fact they also do alot of feeding the poor and especially poor young school children in India. They also distribute alot of their books for free as well. And ALL their books are availble fr anyone to read online as well.

So on that basis, I would have to diasagree with you... however I am not trying to promote HK, or say that it better than RS. I am only pointing out some facts.

[tAo]

George, you said: "Well i find that generosity from a country and region (punjab?) that really has nothing, quite incredible actually."

-- That is not accurate. The Punjab, by and large, actually has a lot of abundance. There is a vast amount of farming and food production there. Have you been there? I have.And I have been all over the Punjab, and not just the little area nearby the RSSB. I have been all over India as well. The people of the Punjab definitely have far more than just "nothing", and are relatively better off than people in other places in India.

[George]

i'm not going to get into a semantic discussion on a statement which is virtually totally correct under any plain reading thereof.

Its well known that india as a country has a massive poverty problem where rural india and its caste system mean india's poorest make up a massive percentage of the world's poorest, the area where the RSSB dera is (near the river), i believe provides much-needed hospital and food support for the ppl in that area, who i think it can be said with all reasonable fairness, probably do have nothing.

But i'm not going to carry this point on further, or the donation point or the HK point, they've all been knowingly sidestepped other than by Tucson - so we'll leave it like that.

[George]

What is interesting though is the power of rhetoric.

[tAo]

George, I have been there, you haven't. So you don't know. Furthermore, you are wrong. The people there are not nearly as poor as you make them out to be. The RSSB does run a hospital, but they give food mainly to satsangis (but also to Indian workers and laborers and sevadars), both Indian as well as foreign, who come to the Dera for spiritual satsang and darshan. And just because the Dear runs a hospital does not mean that the people of the Punjab have nothing. If you don;t believe me, I have Indian friends whose families live in that area, and they can tell you first hand the same thing I am telling you. So with all due respect, I don't think you are in any position to argue about this. You obviously have your opinions and your mind made up. You apparently aren't interested in hearing the facts, but only in holding to your own reltively uninformed position. So go on and think whatever you want, it is inconsequesntial to me. I am not interested in debating this with someone like you who has never been there. I simply tried to give you a more accurate picture.

[tAo]

PS: I didn't "side-step" the HK or the donation issues at all. I addressed them directly. You are the one who is now side-stepping and evading. And what Tucson said about there having been no pressure for donations at the RSSB Dera is correct, and it was my experience back in those days as well, but it does not mean that donations have not been solicited elsewhere. Because they have.

[George]

Tao, Tucson has been intiated into RS and spent 20+ years involved with it, you haven't, so you don't know. Furthermore, i don't know where you have been and you don't know where i've been so lets leave all of that alone. You have sidestepped the actual clear meaning of my point, which was a simple observation of the remarkable generosity provided by an impoverished ppl to westerners including meals and accomdation for nothing. Now i don't know how many organistations you know of that do that, but it seems if they are running a fleecing outfit, they're doing a pretty shit job of it.

My basic point is a simple one, which is that i believe your and Brian's criticism of RS can be inconsisent and gratuitous, especially bearing in mind your apparent acceptance of HK and Brian's 'Teeny Tiny'. All donations seem quite reasonable in that they merely support running costs.

Now we can argue the finer details and nuances with crafty rhetoric until the cows come home, but the problem with rhetoric is when its used to distort in a battle of wits and extraneous issues are raised. Tucson, and i'm sure most others will have understood the points i was trying to make, and to Tucson's utmost credit he has given an honest firsthand account of seva even tho he is no big fan of RS.

[Blogger Brian]

George, I just want to point out that "impoverished people" doesn't accurately describe the headquarters of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. It is a well-funded organization with the ability to purchase valuable property in many places around the world and build expensive structures.

Yes, RSSB is generous to visitors, and engages in laudatory charitable activities. However, I didn't want anyone to be left with the impression that the Dera is being run by poor Indians who are sharing their limited food and lodging.

[George]

Brian,
Tell you what, lets forget 'impoverished', you guys win and have convinced me the punjab is jam-packed with healthy wealthy folk and the hospital and charity activities are just a cunning front.

Accepted, but what is very difficult to understand is how they fleeced ppl with they offer them room and board for nothing.

What incredible economics. Those heathen conmen what what!

[Blogger Brian]

George, I never said anything about "fleecing." I never said anything about "con men." I never said anything about "cunning front."

I just said that RSSB is a well-funded organization.

I realize that you've been dialoguing with several people at once. But reading through other comments on this subject, I don't see anyone else talking about "fleecing" either.

[tAo]

George,

Let's get something straight here. Because you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to me. You are (again) completely wrong.

I was formally initiated into RSSB by Huzur Charan Singh in the 1970s. So I have been involved and familar with RS for over 30 years, and I have been to and stayed at the RSSB Dera (the headquarters and colony) at Beas in the Punjab a number of times. So contray to your misinformed and ignorant claim, I DO KNOW about the RSSB and the Punjab.

Also, as far as I know, you have given no indication that you are an RS satsangi, or that you have ever been to the RSSB colony, or to the Punjab. Maybe you have, but you have not said so here.

However, I have said numerous times over the years on this blog a great deal about my own personal involvement and initiation with the RS path, and about my visits to the RSSB in India.

So for you to say: "Tucson has been intiated into RS and spent 20+ years involved with it, you haven't, so you don't know." is completely unfounded and untrue. Where do you get this idea anyway? Certainly not from me.

So relative to that statement of yours above, YOU are the one who NOT "been intiated into RS" and YOU are the one who has NOT "spent 20+ years involved with it", and so YOU are the one who "don't know".

So George, you really should get your facts straight about other people (like myself) especially before you go making such blatantly false and ignorant statements to me like: "you haven't, so you don't know".

Furthermore, your calim of "remarkable generosity provided by an impoverished ppl to westerners including meals and accomdation for nothing" is also incorect. Those things are not provided to westerners by any such "impoverished ppl". Those are provided to foreign (and Indian) satsangis by the RSSB Dera which happens to be very wealthy. It has nothing to do with any "impoverished ppl" whatsoever. The poor people do not provide any of those things to westerners.... the RSSB does. And the westerners are also contributing large amounts of money in donations TO the RSSB.

Also, I never said that the RSSB is "running a fleecing outfit". So that is incorrect as well. I also have no such "acceptance of HK". I simply related some information about them.

And yes Tucson has "given an honest firsthand account of seva", but so have I. As I have said, my own experience at the RSSB Dera in India is identical to Tucson's. So your trying to say that my views (on the RSSB money-seva/donation issue) are different than Tucson's, is also incorrect and is a gross misrepresentation of what I myself have already said previously. You have been trying to put words in my mouth, and also saying that I am not a long-time RS initiate and so therfore I "don't know" is total bullshit.

I did not start this argument, I merely shared my views abou it, but if you are going to make such false and unfounded assertions about me as you have done, then I must corrrect you on that.

I have no problem with your having differing opinions, but when you cross the line and go saying things about me which are absolutely NOT true, then I must protest.

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Brian,

I am pained to read the above discussions regarding offerings (sewa) at RSSB. Your only complaint is that you could not get anything in meditation even by spending 35 years and though u r still in it on a low magnitude..........

If you wish, you can put other things straight and clear about RSSB. I will restairn myself discussing RSSB and santmat here.

with regards,

[Blogger Brian]

Rakesh, a suggestion: instead of being pained, why don't you join in the discussion?

If someone said something that wasn't accurate, point out the error.
Instead, you made a vague reference to me for some reason.

You seem to be implying that someone wasn't "straight and clear" in some comment above.

If so, set things straight. To me, it's better to light a candle than to curse the blog comment darkness.

[Account Deleted]

hi george do not trust brian at all

brian has lost his self respect and damaged his image ....

he has deleted my post...
actually he always delete my most important and valuable post,
why?
because reading them brian and taos attempt trembles..
people will come to know the real truth about tao n brian..

i posted about the donation scenario
and my personal experience
and brian deleted ...
brian by being with tao you are also losing common sense..
why are you behaving like this..

i always respect your comments and your treatment to others

but why are you following and trying to become like tao..

brian think think and think with peaceful mind..

you are day by day losing all the years you put into meditation..

your wasting all the wealth you gathered...while being associated with rssb..

you do not even have clue what loss you have to bear...the day when you will realise the truth finally..

[Blogger Brian]

Manish, I didn't delete your comment. I edited it, because it contained unacceptable personal attacks. However, somehow it didn't get republished, so I just attended to that.

The comment that you just left got marked as spam by TypePad. I found it and published it.

You have a right to your opinions. I have a right to mine. All I ask is that you discuss issues, rather than engaging in personal attacks and criticism of me and this blog.

That isn't productive.

[Account Deleted]

personal attacks?

do you really understand what is personal?

why will i personally attack?
and when someone is really being senseless and meaningless..
is calling them with their qualities term to be as personal attack in your dictionary,

Brian i still stick to my words..
i have respect for you ...
though i do not agree to many of your thoughts and ideas..

but tao is a person who has lost his way completely..

he is the person with personal attacks,
he is the person who always is waiting and wanting the post to be replied in different point of view,with different point of opinion or either his point of view..is important and seems to be only true..

brian..i tell you very clearly...
when a director makes a movie..
every movie cannot be a blockbuster..
but then if the movie fails we can never blame everyone immediately,

a director who gives blockbusters all the time,if suddenly delivers a picture which is not hit doesn't mean that something from director side..it can be just people wasnt able to understand his direction and his expression..and took accordingly their own thoughts and thinking capabilities.

You people also have mistook many expressions of rssb and their masters according to your own belief,thinking process..

now you and me are totally opposite..

i never had any negative experience from rssb not Single me but as i always says our association is 100 years old..
i never heard anything against rssb from last 100 years,

though criticism is very natural..
that is something have to be faced by everyone,in this human land..

even in my close family relations they are many i know very personally who have lost their faith in rssb,
but all i can do is feel pity for those relatives of mine,,
because i know its just their lack of understanding and inability to follow path has lead them out of rssb..
i can clearly say that...

because many people has this thoughts in their mind,

"Everyone wants to go to Heavan
But no one wants to die"

And that is not at all possible..

thats the reason i said many times come down to india,lets meet up,not for an hour or a day,
lets stay together for some days..
come and i will directly show you things,
perhaps then only you can understand..

by reading posting nothing can be happened..

like it happened in one of the post
rakesh ji mistakenly posted the post with CAPS lock on
and the result is the wrath of TAo,he abused rakesh ji..
yelled on him..
for a reason?which he wasnt aware of and totally misunderstood it..
this is quote natural and normal..
to misunderstood the person other side..
because neither you can see him,or his expression,hear him,

and once again i would repeat
i agenda of being to this blog is one..

to safeguard my master..
because you people really do not know everything and do not know many things..

and its already been a very long time that you started this blog and what all i can see is
no one has gained anything here..
because these discussions will always lead to another and there's no end..
perhaps life will come to end one day
but not these discussions...

[tucson]

Manish said:

"and once again i would repeat
i agenda of being to this blog is one..
to safeguard my master.."

--Don't you think your master can safeguard himself? If he is one with the all-powerful, all-knowing Supreme Lord Sat Purush Radha Soami why does he need your help on this puny blog? (no offense, Brian)

[Blogger Brian]

tucson, no offense taken. You're absolutely right. I'm just a blogger guy in my pajamas (actually, sweat pants at the moment) who spends some time every day writing about what's on his mind, as do other people who choose to share their own thoughts via comments.

Why this blog is so threatening to some people is a mystery to me. Myself, I spend essentially zero time on web sites that spout a message I don't like, or agree with. I follow general news sites, but politically I read progressive blogs that make me say "Yes, yes!" rather than "No, no!"

So it's perplexing to me why some true believers keep on reading stuff here that offends them. They're welcome to do so, of course. I just wonder what the appeal is in feeling offended all of the time.

[Vikas]

Tao,

You have not answered a single point I raised.

"1. RS sangats in the US have on occasion pressured satsangis to do money seva (donations)."

- I have already told you I am not aware of what goes on in US. I am in no position to counter these arguments.

"Also, in India satsangis have definitley been urged to donate not only money but their property and real estate as well. And it is not the poor satsangis who are being pressured."

- Last time around I asked for any proof for this accusation. You might want to consider using the journalistic term 'allegedly' somewhere in the sentence.

"2. There have been many testimonies that indicate this is happening. Some were even posted on here awhile back. You can search for them on your own if you like."

- In a similar vein there have been many testimonies of people who have seen worlds beyond these. You may want to read them and stop doubting. I have not read the books so I can not quote but have heard discussions between my parents and others. Maybe Brian will know.
I will spend time to go through the testimonies here but a lot of things that get published here are with little understanding of the situation - as in the case of cash donations now.

I would trust what I see and hear.

"3. Vikas said: "And you know the whole story, the whole truth about what happens in India sitting in another continent. Who are these many satsangis, how many is many and what is your source of information?"

-- See # 2 above."

- See the response above.

"-- I have also been to the Dera several times as well, in the 1980s, and I too was not asked to donate when I was there. But I have never said that donations were solicited AT the Dera."

- I told you the example of Delhi and Bangalore. I have been to the Mumbai Satsang only once. That covers the three richest cities of India for you. I still find it strange that a fleecing operation will fleece at Delhi but not at the Dera. A visit to the Dera is like a pilgrimage for a lot of people. A visitor is most likely to donate there and in larger amounts. The entire premise doesn't hold.

"Vikas said: "Not everything about RSSB has to be sinister or evil."

-- I have never said that it was."

- When I wrote this the larger meaning was that if RSSB doesn't work at a spiritual level for those who have tried that is indictment enough. Don't try to find problems where they may not exist or of things you do not understand. It makes it look like a case of sour grapes and sidesteps the core issues.

"Vikas said: "Don't criticize for the sake of criticizing."

-- I haven't. I try to stick to the facts, but also my own opinions."

- I have been waiting for the facts. Opinions are a different matter. When I went for my first job interview at GE Capital in '97 I offered my opinion on a particular matter. My future mentor and reporting manager told me, "Vikas, opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one".

As far as possible I try not to give opinions unless asked for. I never write about spiritual matters about which I know nothing. These are facts (as seen and heard by me) and not opinions.

"Vikas said: "Shiloh's reactions were a load of nonsense."

-- That's merely your own personal opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't have to agree with it, and I don't. Shiloh raised some good points, which are not "nonsense". And imo, your knee-jek defensiveness and your biased objections do not."

- There you go again. After not having a single fact to back your claim you call my response a knee jerk reaction. Wow.

Let me quote my last line once again.

"Shiloh's reactions were a load of nonsense. Time permitting I will raise other issues."

Let me add again. No spiritual matters will be raised. I don't know that side of the story. Just facts and personal experiences.

Please wait for the objections to come before trashing them. I never asked you to agree with anything that I say. Why would I want to waste time doing that?

It is strange that none of you have ever been asked for donations directly yet some of you have huge objections to this to the extent of making unsubstantiated allegations.

[tAo]

Manish,

You apparently aren't very observant or intelligent, and you are definitly confused and have a pretty significant lack of understanding when comes to the facts and points that I and others present in their comments.

It is YOUR comments that are "meaningless as usual".

It is YOU who speak about others without knowing anything about them.

It is YOU who seem to know little or nothing about RSSB other than narrow-minded propaganda and dogma.

You say: "No one in the history of RSSB has been ask for charity." -- Well that is not so. It is a fact that some satsangis have been pressured on occasion to donate both money and property... regardless of how much you may wish to deny that.

You say: "you do not know about the indians how rich they are they love to give lots of charity..." -- I happen to have known a great many Indian people very well. I lived in India for years. I have known extremely rich Indians and also very poor Indians. I am also very aware that Indian people give money to swamis, gurus, temples and ashrams. Andmany Indians give to RSSB as well. But so what?

You say: "its all their personal choice no one is ask to." -- In most cases yes, but that has not always been so in every case.

You say: "my charity system is different and i do not want to share with you." -- I don't care what you do, thats your business. Just like what I do is none of your business.

You say: "there are many people i personally know give lakhs to rupees anonymously to DERA RSSB." -- I don't doubt that either... but so what?

You say: "you ask about property its all fake statements." -- Wrong. I did not "ask" about any property. You are confused.

You say: "now a very personal point of view from the eyes of all true RSSB {...] the master,who has given his own life for his devotees and who has given us the path of self realization."

-- Your master has given no such thing. He has not given anything to anyone. Satsangis are the ones who give donations and seva to the RSSB. The master gives nothing. He only speaks a few words and makes appearances and plays the role of guru. He is an actor in a play. That is not giving anything of substance to anyone. He is actually taking. His expenses are all paid from donations. Satsangis are the ones who give to him. They give attention, money, and seva. But the RS master gives nothing to anyone. But you must posseses a rational and sober and objective mind to see that.

You say: "Tao [...] why are you wasting your precious time..on these blogs..
you will never gain anything." -- But I am not looking to gain anything. I post comments here because I choose to. I am not in need of gaining anything. I have what I need to live, and I have my life. I am not looking to "gain". I am looking to surrender so that I may be an open and clear vessel for the One. But you don't understand that, or what that really means. You are caught up in a false identity and alot of related baggage.

You say: "you have already given half of your life to rssb." -- I haven't given anything to the RSSB. My life for the most part belongs to me, and beyond that, to the One who guides me.

You say: "now its time for you to realise your mistake" -- I have made no mistake. Everything in my life is exactly the way it needs to be. I am always right on course. And the One who guides me does not make mistakes.

You say: "he will forgive you."

-- Who is he? I answer to no man. And I don't need any forgiveness either. And you know absolutely nothing about me or about my life, so who are you to say? You should simply ask for forgiveness for yourself Manish, and don't worry about others. Others are not any of your concern whatsoever. What I know and do is really none of your business. You should simply attend to your own life and path, whatever that may be.

[Vikas]

Tucson,

Yes, the exchange rate then may have been Rs 12 to a $.

Back of the envelope calculations show that 1USD contributed by Brian then would have become 30 USD (or more) by now. This is by investing them in secure debt instruments only.

That is nearly Rs 1500 today :)

$ 100 contributed then would have enabled some one to buy the cheapest car in the world today - the Tata Nano - with cash to spare :D

[tAo]

Vikas,

You said: "I have already told you I am not aware of what goes on in US. I am in no position to counter these arguments."

-- Alright, so what? I simply told you what I know. I don't care whether you "counter" or not.

Vikas said: "Last time around I asked for any proof for this accusation. You might want to consider using the journalistic term 'allegedly' somewhere in the sentence."

-- That is already implied. I told you you can search for that if you like. It's your doubt, not mine.

Vikas said: "In a similar vein there have been many testimonies of people who have seen worlds beyond these. You may want to read them and stop doubting."

-- I don't need to read them. I have expressed no doubt that people have experiences. I know other people have experiences. I have experiences myself. But so what? Subjective experiences don't prove anything. You need to catch up to speed here, and get your facts straight. No one here is doubting that some people have had experiences.

Vikas said: "I have not read the books so I can not quote but have heard discussions between my parents and others. [...] but a lot of things that get published here are with little understanding of the situation - as in the case of cash donations now."

-- You do not know that. You don't know that others have "little understanding of the situation". Other people have a great deal of understanding, and in some cases far more than you do. So what gives you the ability to say otherwise? Yo don't know what other people know. And you also don't know about the people who have been pressured oand intimidated to give money and/or property either. So its pretty obvious that you don't know what you are talking about.

Vikas said: "I still find it strange that a fleecing operation will fleece at Delhi but not at the Dera."

-- I never said anyone was being "fleeced". I never said anyting about Delhi either. I was talking about satsangis who were pressured and intimidated to give money and property elsewhere, not at formal satsangs or bhandaras. You have missed the point entirely. I have no interst in debating this further with someone like you who is so uninformed. Yor can go do the research on your own if its that important to you. There is even some some info in the archives on this site.

Vikas said: "The entire premise doesn't hold."

-- What "premise"? I don't think you even know what is being discussed here.

Vikas said: " Don't try to find problems where they may not exist or of things you do not understand."

-- Fyi Vikas, I understand vastly more than you do about all aspects of Sant mat and RS. And I have the experience to back it up. You say you are not even an initiate. I have more than 30 years experience and have been to the Dera numerous times. Do you? Have you? I don't think so. And yet you say that I do not "understand"? LOL! Try to get some sense of perspective Vikas.

Vikas said: "It makes it look like a case of sour grapes and sidesteps the core issues."

-- You are obviously new to this site and forum, and lack familarity with what has been presented and discussed here. The core issues have been deliberated at length for years. And it has nothing to do with any "sour grapes". I am not even going to bother responding to this kind of nonsesne from you after this post. Because you definitely don't know what you are talking about.

Vikas said: "I have been waiting for the facts."

-- The facts are there, but you will have to dig them out for yourself. Perhaps others can steer you to where you can find some.

Vikas said: "I never write about spiritual matters about which I know nothing."

-- Then why do you presume to say or imply that others here do not understand RS?

Vikas said: "Shiloh's reactions were a load of nonsense."

-- But how do you know that if, as you say, you know nothing about spiritual matters?

Vikas said: "It is strange that none of you have ever been asked for donations directly yet some of you have huge objections to this to the extent of making unsubstantiated allegations."

-- The allegations are not unsubstantiated. There are testimonies. And you are wrong and mistaken when you say "none" of us have ever been asked for donations. I was asked to contribute donations at a bhandara in California, at satsangs in Washington DC, and at a bhandara/initiation in St Petersburg Florida. So again, you really don't know what you are talking about.

You seem to be rather defensive of RS, but have no experience. So why are you here? This is called Church of the Churchless for a reason. But you seem to be playing the same old game that other RS cult believers have done so many times before. If you want to debate something relative to RS, then at least make your position clear, and don't assume things about other folks that you don't know.

[sapient]

Vikas,
I can give you the proof. Our family friend's parents are Satsangis for the last three generations. They have worked hard (doing sewa while neglecting their kids) all their life to step up the in the sewadar hierarchy. They are pretty rich by Indian standards working at Delhi center and frequent visitor to US centers. When they got retired, they went to dera asking for directions for what should they do in their life. Since they are very high in administration, they met BabaJi directly and they were told by him that they have too much property world wide and it will distract them in the meditation in their final days( they are hardly 60 though). They were asked to consolidate the property by selling it and were suggested to move to dera if they wish. Yes it came as a shock to our friend's parents as they wanted to keep the properties for their kids. But how can you contradict if GOD is talking to you! They ended up selling almost all their houses and gave away a lot of money to dera, though they are still living in their Delhi house as moving to dera was given as an option. (Off course now you will say that they were not told to give money to dera. Yes but their cultic minds kept on thinking why did babaji ask us to sell the properties and move to dera). Why did Babaji suggested them to sell the properties. They could have easily given it to their kids.

Also give me few days (unless I have not trashed all of them) I will try to find the monthly newsletter of RSSB north America, where Vince sewarese once clearly wrote that we should give at least 10% of our income as dhan Sewa. And most of the people, I know in Sonoma county area do that diligently, even while they are going through foreclosures of their houses.

Anyway my point is that if you are following a sect with a cultic mind , ok let me correct if your sect is cultic in behavior ( emotionally draining you that once you are initiated you will be dragged with bulldozer, so that you cant run away), then you become a bonded labor who never complains that he is a slave. A sewadar is told that Sewa is the essence of path and sewa is of three kinds- tan, mann, and dhan. And what is Dhan-sewa : donating money to RSSB!

[tAo]

Manish said:

"when someone is really being senseless and meaningless..is calling them with their qualities term to be as personal attack"

"tao is a person who has lost his way completely."

"he is [...] always is waiting and wanting the post to be replied in different point of view,with different point of opinion"

"they are many i know very personally who have lost their faith in rssb, but all i can do is feel pity for those relatives of mine,, because i know its just their lack of understanding and inability"

"i agenda of being to this blog is one.. to safeguard my master.."

"its already been a very long time that you started this blog and what all i can see is
no one has gained anything here."

--- Manish, you say you feel sorry for other people who leave RS. But you literally don't understand anything about Brian, about this site, or about most of the other people who comment here, especially me.

No offence Manish, but spiritually speaking, you really are the sad sorry one here.

The reason that you don't 'get' where other people are at, is becuuse you think you know it all, and that they (especially those who no longer believe in RS) are "lost".

That is arrogant, and self-righteous, and downright stupid. What do you know about others? You know nothing.

I am not trying to offend you. I am simply saying that you have no idea what you are talking about. Your english grammer and syntax is a bit poor (but thats OK), however your thinking is much much poorer. Your thinking is downright lame.

You are so full of your dogmatic beliefs and self-righteous attitude, you are blinded and can't see or understand anyone or anything else.

I hope you grow up out of your fantasy world and become a real, mature, and rational individual someday. I really and sincerely do. But first, you need to get off that pile of crap you are sitting on.

I am sure there are other people like you in RS, but I am sure as hell glad I don't have to be around them anymore or deal with them. Which then makes me wonder, what ARE you doing here Manish? Why are you still here? Do you even know? What are you trying to do here... besides preaching about RSSB and insulting those who aren't believers like you??

I hope I have made myself clear to you.
And I don't have anything more to say to you. People like you don't deserve my attention. And if you keep posting unjustified personal attacks and insults, I am sure your comments will continue getting edited and/or deleted.

Adios Manish.

[Account Deleted]

well tao you again proved yourself
that you have already lost your senses
you are meaningless asusal
and senseless asusual
your arrogant asusual
your ignorant asusual

well dear i m not here to insult anyone here
but who ever will speak bad and wrong about rssb then i will also reply back to them with the same language.
though all these replies are very personal and my own and RSSB has nothing to do with it,

well my dear silly tao..
its not that i know everything
what i can surely say is i know almost evverything if compared to you and brian..
you both do not know anything particularly regarding rssb,

and you are dogmatic
not me

and from starting when i have come to know about you i felt sorry for you..
and you please dont feel sorry for me poor child..

and about my grammar
i long back confessed i m not good at english..
but can speak and write 100% better than you guys,
because you cannot right spell or write hindi..

indians inherited with god gifted talent..
they are always good at multi tasking..

anyways ..

and innocent tao i will not say i m happy that your are out of rssb now..

for me tao and brian seems to have done kinda sting operation for rssb..

just to blame and criticize rssb they joined it learned through it known they wanted read books gained knowledge
and now consider the path to be unuseful and tao the "MISTAKE"(mystic)consider himself a master self..
how pity....

its like he saying to his mom i m your husband and my dad is my son
how silly
how silly

i hope brian would not delete this post of mine and will act as a man
rather than a coward...

[tAo]

Manish said:

"i m not here to insult anyone"...

"silly tao."

"you have become old dumb idiot tao."

"dumb person like you "

"tao the "MISTAKE"

"how pity."

"i hope brian
will act as a man
rather than a coward."

[tAo]

More twisted personal insults from Manish:

"you are all confirmed cowards"

"get your sex changes."

"get your sex changed"

"you are not deserve to call a man at all tao."

"without giving any silly kiddish excuse get your sex changed."

[Account Deleted]

well yes
you can prove me wrong
thats not an confirmed statment yet

give me your real name
show me your face

ok share your contact details we will speak up on phone..
one to one that would be more better

[Account Deleted]

tao you can email me you contact number at [email protected]

i wanted to talk to on phone..
perhaps may be then we can have a good real conversation without misunderstanding..

[Vikas]

Tao,

I concede the point. In fact all points.

You have infinite time to go around in circles. I don't. In any case having known your propensity to hair-split and use rude language why did I even get into a discussion with you.

By the way, if you ever get any proof about your allegations ask for my mail id from Brian and write to me.

On the issue of Shiloh. My apologies to her. There was only one more point I had objection to. The rest were from other comments. I stand corrected.

Take care,

[juan]

Vikas, you said,

I have been to a number of Satsangs accompanying my parents………………. There is no evidence I have seen/heard to support it. In any case a large number of people at these satsangs are too poor to contribute anything substantial. It may not even cover the cost of infrastructure built for the conduct of Satsang.

--- Apparently you will not see any evidence. In RSSB if you happen to hold a high seva, and you want to maintain that position, either you have to contribute financially, or you should be a beurocrat or of some political influence, or beneficial for the organization. The poor sangat is governed and has to contribute with physical seva.

There are 60 satsangs drafted by the publication dept. in Beas and the readers conducting the satsangs in nearly all the centers in India are clearly instructed to read it as it is without adding anything of their own. Please listen those carefully and you will definitely get an ample evidence.

Further you said;

Why host Brian, feed him, take care and then not ask for $$$ when he was most likely to part with them?
Why depend on piddly contributions by Indian disciples in Indian Rupees (to make the point clear the current exchange rate is Rs 48/49= $ 1)?

…..Maybe to create a better image of RSSB. The attendance of Foreigners at satsangs had been very much helpful to attract the Indians during the decade of 60s, especially when Charan Singh had to face tough competetion with the Kirpal group.

I personally don’t feel that it is wrong, as money and man power are the necessity for the continuity and expansion of the organization.

[Vikas]

Sapient,

Don't bother with looking for documents to support '10% of your income as sewa' thing. I have heard it too.

But sewa of money is not a concept invented by RSSB. It is followed in all faiths. All around I see charity / donations as an act of sharing your wealth with others or appeasing God or as a means to be popular in your community.

It is not even an Indian concept. Some of the greatest public institutions in US have been built by philanthropists.

I am not sure if the incident with your friend's parents is as presented or there is an element of chinese whispers to it.

Is your friend upset that he was denied an inheritance? For the sake of argument let us keep these doubts aside.

It does make me think what if they had not gone and asked for advise. Were they told by someone to seek Guru's opinion? What would they do if they had not sought any opinions?

The suggestion that they consolidate their properties does not in any way lead to a fat donation coming to the Dera account a few months down the line. Though it easy to connect the dots in hindsight.
If it was intentional the suggestion could have been a lot more direct. Should have been a lot more direct. Con artists do not leave things to chance.
Think about it.

Too many questions on this. Only your friend's parents know what transpired and why? We can only speculate and draw conclusions either way.

However, the point that I originally objected to was:
"I’m glad you mentioned the latter since I suspect that pushing for donations might be more easier and acceptable among faith based, notoriously blindly-believing Asian communities, and thus may be much more blatant there."

My objection to this still holds.

[Account Deleted]

tao you once again asusal sound extremly nonsense to me..

you always claim a lot for no reasons

email me your personal id at [email protected]
or if possible give me your contact number
i once for all wanted to talk you directly
this blog is not sufficient ...to change views perfectly..

you already claimed a very fantastic nonsense statement..

but i will only confirm if you can directly email me or we can talk directly

else i have nothing left to say to u already

[sapient]

Vikas,
Don't you think its none of the business of a spiritual guru to tell people to sell their properties and move to dera. My friend's parents went there for spiritual advise and I am not sure why and how their properties and money came in the picture? Also why can't one practice dhyan while living in material life. Thats the whole essence of sant mat, isn't it? Why do you need to consolidate your business, property etc etc to focus on meditation?
Also this conversation was told by my friend itself who obviously is little confused about the whole issue. I wont say he is angry but his faith is little shaken.

[Account Deleted]

Don't you think your master can safeguard himself? If he is one with the all-powerful, all-knowing Supreme Lord Sat Purush Radha Soami why does he need your help on this puny blog? (no offense, Brian)

Tuscon my dear holy innocent sweet child of god..

well dear masters dont care...for these kind of issues as these kind of issues exist from the day this man kind existed..

and masters and me..holy my child holy tuscon dear

i cannot compare anyway to my master or any master...saint ..

why i do is a good question which has been answered many times
but its just as you guys understanding capabilities are so weak ..
you people doesnt understand..

i do this for my personal interest
complete individual attempt
RSSB has no connection in whatever i do..
RSSB never encourage this kind of discussions and i know i m doing wrong..

perhaps i will one day stop coming here
because consciously i m aware i m doing wrong in getting discussions with tao and brain

but it may be happening for a reason..
thats the reason i m a weak struggler of my path,

i many times ask this question that why i m here wasting time with tao and brain when by gods grace i know the truth and very well know that all these guys are very wrong and they are 100% wrong and incorrect in all their posts..

and what they want is...pity on them
they havent know yet at this age...

so sad..so sad..
may god bless you both always..and even tuscon,osho,
sapient(sapera)

[sapient]

Also about the 10% dhan-sewa (donation) issue:
yes you are right that 'giving' is essential part of any religious group but in RSSB, its considered Sewa.

So the trap is like this:
-There are four vows to follow once you are initiated else you will be dragged with a bulldozer.

-One of the most important vow is to do meditation for two and half hours every day. ( off course this time frame is impossible for a person with job, kids, parents and other responsibilities even if he neglects all his main duties in life and gets sleep deprived since he is getting up in the middle of the night for meditation)

-With all that mental pressure,the initiate is told that sewa does the cleansing and create the atmosphere for meditation. Sewa clears the Karmas and thus is very very important.

-And now he is told that Sewa is of three kinds: Tan (body), mann (soul) and dhan(money)

Then the poor selfless but scared soul thinks thats what the God wants.
Tan sewa: becomes a free labor at sewa centers during weekends when he should be spending time with his kids.
Mann sewa: devotes completely to the master and people associated with the master. Starts treating non-satsangis as untouchables.Thats the only way to become guru-mukh.
Dhan Sewa: Starts fighting with his family to donate 10% of their income to RSSB as he is in the hurry of cleansing his Karmas.

Oh yeah, he is never told to donate money but only to do dhan sewa!!! to clean his own bad karma else he will be dragged... Oh poor soul.

[sapient]

Thanks for your wishes 'Man'ish but you don't need to pity at me. Honestly I didn't want to reply to any of your conversation as you doesn't make any sense. I was only replying to Vikas as he made sense and was trying to discuss like a normal person which is what this blog is meant for.

Also don't worry, at least I expect this behavior from you as from all other satsangis who thinks they are the only chosen ones and rest are doomed.
you are actually a great example of all satsangis who mock all the non/ex satsangis while always thinking about your greatness.

Let us be untouchables.You are free to live in your illusion. Though when the anxiety of all the RSSB vows becomes unbearable and you start getting panic attacks or delusions, please go see a shrink. I am not sure where you live but here in sonoma county/san francisco area, we have therapist who specializes in rssb patients.

(Also another unrelated advice to you. Don't share your email on the internet or at least write 'at' instead of '@' so that your email is not picked up by hack crawlers. Your master cant save your email. believe me)

[tucson]

Manish you wrote in your comment above:

"Tuscon my dear holy innocent sweet child of god.."

--Manish, my darling little lump of delight, you need to quit with these phoney platitudes. Even my mother never called me anything like that...I think she got as far as "dear" and that's about it. Anyway, you come from a very weird culture if it is normal for strangers to address each other this way. It comes across as very fake and contrived unless you are being sarcastic.

You said: "RSSB has no connection in whatever i do..
RSSB never encourage this kind of discussions and i know i m doing wrong.."

--I know it's hard, much like giving up cigarettes or liquor, but you can give up this sick addiction if you try hard enough. Master would be very pleased I'm sure.

You said: "perhaps i will one day stop coming here
because consciously i m aware i m doing wrong in getting discussions with tao and brain"

--Very good. Admitting your problem is the first step in conquering it. Whenever you feel the urge to argue with "Brain" and tAo think of the master and immediately start doing simran until the urge passes. I know you can do it, and with Master's grace you will.

You wrote: "but it may be happening for a reason.."

--The Master is testing you to see if you are worthy of his grace.

You said: "thats the reason i m a weak struggler of my path,"

--But this is your chance to show you really have the strength deep inside to overcome your weaknesses and rise to celestial heights and to quit participating in this blog which is nothing but a dark pit of ignorance. (no offense, Brian)

You said: "i many times ask this question that why i m here wasting time with tao and brain when by gods grace i know the truth and very well know that all these guys are very wrong and they are 100% wrong and incorrect in all their posts.."

--Again, you realize your foolishness by throwing pearls before swine and that you are wasting your time with all us manmukhs. This is your chance to escape from the clutches of Kal and to do your duty as pledged to the Master. You know what that is...Attend to your simran and bhajan and leave the affairs of this world to the negative power. You have a higher calling. It's time to move on. Don't you think? It's for your own good and you will be helping the Master in his duty and promise to deliver you to the lap of Sat Purush Anami.

[tAo]

Manish,

Swami Ji Maharaj (Shiv Dayal Singh) once said:

"God is within every one, but nobody knows Him. People commit sins while He looks on, but He does not prevent them, and makes them go through Chaurasi [the cycle of births and deaths]. What good then, is this God to us? But when we meet a Satguru [Master of Truth] and He explains to us in what form God is present in our hearts, then we are informed and avoid bad deeds, and escape Chaurasi. Hence it is necessary to seek a Satguru, for He is the God manifest, and the search for the unmanifested God is not possible without the help of a Satguru. Those who don't do so will neither find God nor escape Chaurasi, but waste this precious human life. And whoever seeks the Satguru will surely find Him, for the Satguru is an incarnation eternally present upon this earth." (Sar Bachan II: 208)

-- So why ARE you here Manish, wrestling with manmukhs as you do, and becoming enmeshed in the domain of Kal?

Why are you wasting your precious time here and ignoring your Master's instructions?

You will never reach Sach Khandd and Radha Soami by insulting and fighting with other initiates and satsangis on this blog, and you cannot help anyone either, as you have no power to do that. That is all in the Master's hands, not yours.

Your obligation is simply to do yor meditation and to follow your Master and remain within His grace.

You are not doing that here, and so you will achieve nothing by remaining here, except to fail your Mastewr and fall down into the pit of Kal and chaurasi.

[Account Deleted]

sapient my dear all you are really very very innocent and very kiddish

"""""Also don't worry, at least I expect this behavior from you as from all other satsangis who thinks they are the only chosen ones and rest are doomed.
you are actually a great example of all satsangis who mock all the non/ex satsangis while always thinking about your greatness.

Let us be untouchables.You are free to live in your illusion. Though when the anxiety of all the RSSB vows becomes unbearable and you start getting panic attacks or delusions, please go see a shrink. I am not sure where you live but here in sonoma county/san francisco area, we have therapist who specializes in rssb patients.""""

you wrote this above in your post proves your ignorance,
i said so many times but i think as i already know western people are rather more dumb than smart,
you guys always think with your own point of view...which is almost always wrong..

i m not here to fight with ex satsangis i do not care if anyone leaving the path..

i really felt relaxed when i came across the sayings of guru granth sahib
in guru granth sahib its written clearly
guru nanak dev said,
if anyone goes of track from the path,it happens because of master only,when master sees that their disciple aren't worth enough had have not able to understand the granth and masters word they themself create situations to make people go off track,
and there was 3 incidents occurred in guru nanak dev time.which i cannot translate it in english..
but i clearly understood it..what guru nanak dev was trying to say,

and sapient(sapera this name suits you best if your indian why use fancy names)

so sapera i m not here to fight..as i said in my blog i do not know everything,
but i know more than brian and tao and you and tuscon when it comes to RSSB,
and i do not need to clarify and prove,
because the owner of this blog is not that worthy person..because theres a reason behind him being not worthy?

I want to ask Brian when he wrote book for RSSB why he wrote and with what feelings hi wrote
what he has written was true?
if it was true?
why are you not following the same belief?
if it was not true and u knew
why did you wrote that book?

well many incidents proves brian cannot be trusted..

and sapera about sharing my email add,,
i m a computer geek and a very good hacker,do not worry....and you said master cant help,my dear darling it shows your ignorance...Master can do anything...
but for that you need to have faith and understand it..

and sapera as tao tells many time manish you do not know about me who i m what i am so and so,
so sapera its really true you guys do not have any idea or clue who i m ,,and how i m connected with rssb,and why i m following this path,
you all would have been fortunate..
but master doesnt want..so he already created the situation where tao and brian started there belly dance when i was new to this blog and hence my mind changed?

Now to tuscon,
the way i address you even you mother havent,
well thats the generosity of indians and humanity of indians..
they are more forgiving that anyone else in the world...

western region is more controlled by negative power (KAL) than Asian Countries
Read more books Trace more...and you will come to know more about the reality of the Land Called INDIA...

"""Manish, my darling little lump of delight, you need to quit with these phoney platitudes"""

tuscon my english is so simple that i looked in the dictionary to undertand phoney and platitudes meaning,

and your judgment towards me is incorrect,
but you have right to make you own judgment.

and yes tuscon for the first time your post really made a sense
the rest of your entire post was very well written
when i say well written
because theres truth involved in it,
thanks..tuscon for motivating me..i appreciate it..

and its co incident that tao also made good sense this time by posting right
your exactly right tao not only soami ji
but even guru nanak dev ji,kabir sahib and paltu said the same things..

and i very well knew..
now i will say something which will make you people in confusion and doubt?
i m saying this because may be you can realy understand the power of negative the KAL

i very well from the beginning knew i m here and its wrong to discuss spiritual stuff here,and to get into discussion guru nank dev said to avoid it..
guru nanak dev said if you face any such person instead of getting into discussion bow him and leave the place immediately,

but like they say ...my bit of anger..made me stay here..and the reason i was here because i know everything about RSSB,more closely than you guys can ever know..

you people just do not accept my above words because the truth is you do not know about me at all,

what you know about manish is ..just through his posts...

and who knows may be manish arora is not at all the person,if you compare through his posts..

and again i would like to say i was never here for the reason to promote rssb..or to fight be any ex satsangis
its not at all true
i m here for my personal reason..
my attachment to my master
my love for him...

and conciously every time i spent here,
i spent with a thought that manish your doing wrong,but one day i want you to vanish..from here..
i use to say master forgive me,i use to ask him please make my mind stable ,that i should not react at all with such guys who are really ignorant..
i use to say in myself master anyhow help me out..
i use to talk to other people..to get inner peace and finally by reading guru granth sahib i accidently opened a page
and it was about these kind of posts,thought sand off track followers..
and i really felt relaxed..as i got answer to my latest questions..

and one more thing

i never felt pride or said i m the choosen one i m safe and you guys arent
read any of my post and you can see i never mentioned that

i only had discussion with tao and brian and that too only about the rssb,
the way they have thought and judged rssb,
but now as i realised..

i m very much relaxed..and happy

and see masters do everything by their own
yesterday night i got the answers and today
you guys really posted meaningful posts..
which by reading i felt happy..

sapera,tuscon and tao three gave very valid replies..

and i m happy for three of you..
and what tao said was all true
i agree to this post of his completely..

and i m off from this post for sometime now.. have to get back to my spiritual journey..

tao and brian i know your minds would be saying
manish will one day back from this illusionary world or master and sachkhand and join churchless..

but the same feeling i have for you both
you both will one day come out of the illusionary world and may be realised..

i m so so so fortunate to have a very good company of many spiritual seekers..

and i said my association is 100 years long..and its not that kind of association where you see and gain nothing..

but as i said i was here to share many wonderful true experiences..
not inner though but there are many more experiences ...but anyways..

masters know all..
and they know what is right when is right who is right..

thanks for you three you made my day today

[George]

tAo

"I was formally initiated into RSSB by Huzur Charan Singh in the 1970s."

If that is indeed the case, then you are a hypocrite and a liar, because i have once before asked why you guys who dislike RS so much actually fell for the all the stuff you now consider to be so ridiculous. I think that exchange is in the archives somewhere under our Taoist/nonduality discussion.

I believe you are a liar tAo and are intellectually dishonest. You are in fact many of the things you accuse other people of. I am actually very dissapointed in your approach, since its an utter waste of both of our time if ppl are intellectually dishonest. Basically that means your views have been formed and you will say or do anything to support those views.

I don't know whether RS is a good or a bad thing, but its reasonably clear to me that you fellas have an agenda here and have formed unsupported inconsistent conclusions.

[George]

You clearly told me in our previous exchange that you had not been initiated and that my assumption that you were an initiated ex-satsangi were in fact incorrect.

I'm actually not sure you guys know what you believe.

[Blogger Brian]

George, for someone who admires science, sometimes you make unduly dogmatic statements. I was surprised when I read your comments about tAo, because they don't fit with my understanding.

I did an initial search (which you could have done also, using the Google box in the right sidebar) of "tao initiate rssb." It didn't take long until I came up with a February 13, 2009 comment on this post:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2009/01/rssb-guru-does-karaoke-he-must-be-god.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2011278d7e40328a4#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2011278d7e40328a4

He said: "You mean that after about 30 years of my being an RS initiate and practicing shabda yoga meditation, reading and studying ALL of the various sant mat books and literature several times over, spending many lengthy visits to India and the Dera, and speaking with the guru - both in formal satsang meetings and also privately one-on-one - on many different occasions... that I still somehow (according to you) "don't understand Sant Mat"???"

Here's another tAo comment from November 30, 2007:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2007/11/another-one-bit/comments/page/1/#comments

"Speaking for myself, here is an example: Having already tread the over-all spiritual path as a serious yogi in India for at least 15 years prior, about 30 years ago (mostly out of curiousity) I got into RS. After about six years of significant experience in RS, I left or dropped RS completely and effortlessly. But more importantly, unlike many/most RS satsangis, I did not ever rigidly subscribe to or hold to any RS beliefs to begin with or during, and so I left/dropped RS without any beliefs either."

What bothers me the most about the Internet, George, and what often goes on with commenters on my own blogs, is how people will go off on "flame wars" before getting facts straight.

This is exactly what you just complained about in your comments above, yet it is what you're guilty of in this case. You could have said, "I'm confused, tAo, because I recollect you saying that you weren't an initiate. But maybe I'm wrong about this. Please clarify."

Understand: I certainly don't agree with everything tAo says. I also don't know whether at some time he may have given the impression that he wasn't an initiate. But falsifiability is a key element of the scientific method.

A few minutes of Google research led me to falsify your "flame war" invective of "liar, liar." You could have done this yourself. I'd rather be drinking my morning coffee and meditating at the moment rather than spending my time correcting your mistake. So forgive me if I sound a bit peeved (pre-caffeine irritation).

[OshoRobbins]

Manish,
You wrote:
"I know more than Brian and tao and you and tucson when it comes to RSSB"

firstly - you forgot to include me - but never mind.

secondly - I have heard the current RSSB master say in satsang:
"None of you understand anything about sant mat. All you have
is concepts."

Now what exactly are you talking about when you say you
KNOW more then Brian, Tao etc?

Do you mean you have more theoretical knowledge, have attended
more satsangs or read more books?

Or do you mean you have reached the regions or Sach Khand?

In any case the current master has changed many of the traditional
teachings.

I will give you one example. Someone asked him - Will you come
at the time of death? Now sant mat teaches that the master comes
at the time of death to take care of the soul.

Now listen to the reply; it will shock you if you are a
follower of traditional sant mat:

"Please try to understand what I am saying. Who will come? and who
will they come for? When there is only ONE?"

He is also fond of quoting paltu: There is only ONE - there is no other.

These are enlightenment teachings - not sant mat teachings and the
current master is mixing the two and confusing the hell out of most
followers because most satsangis do not have the foggiest clue as to
what is going on.

Maybe he is doing it on purpose. Who knows? But one thing is clear -
things are changing.

So I don't know what exactly you claim to know about sant mat.

Regarding the book - as far as I know (correct me if I am wrong, Brian),
but the current master ASKED Brian to write the book.

At the time Brian wrote it because it was what he believed to be true.

However, when we grow up - we can look back and laugh at ouselves.

I used to believe in Santa Clause many many years ago. Does it mean
I still have to believe him now? Now I know that Santa Clause does
not exist.

In the same way - I also know that the RSSB teachings are a METAPHOR
that have been taken literally.

The story of KAL standing on one leg (why on one leg? do you get extra
merit? and if so - why don't we call stand on one leg to meditate - just
imagine how pleased Sat Purush is going to be!!)
is a FICTION - it is not literal. Sat Purush is also not literal,
neither is Sach Khand.

If you doubt this - I suggest you go back and ask your master.

I have already asked him in public and he said
"There are no regions - it is not literal - it is just a way of
describing. Actually they are just states of consciousness."

I hope all the millions of people who meditated and tried to get to
Sach Khand understood they were trying to get to a fictional place!

[George]

no Brian, those passages are not what i am talking about, i distinctly remember Tao telling me that he had not been intiated into RS when i asked why you guys had bought into RS in the first place.

At the time I found Tao's response puzzling since i thought he had been initiated (as evidence by your quotes). Instead i get the distinct impression he's story keeps chopping and changing to suit.

I will do some searching through your archives on my own since this is very strange, and i would ask you, in advance, not to remove any posts. I actually just don't know how honest you guys are. Are you crazy enough to distort things to such an extent as to save face?

The worst of the lot is that these egotistical issues are totally off the main point, which is the implication that RS are somehow profiteering. lol, and you want to know how flame wars are started. Why do you think this upsets ppl? Must be the strangest free-thinking site around. When your provocative views are aired they are public interest, but others are banned for not contributing to the subject. Madness.

Tao constantly reverts to lecturing based on some sort of self-assumed superior gravitas supposedly obtained from have learnt and done everything under the sun. Its utter bullshit. I am not interested in what he, or anyone else, claims to 'know'. I am interested in a discussion of the content of the point in issue, not of the gravitas and credentials of the person making that point.

The most honest answer was given by Tucson, everyone can see that from a mile away.

[Account Deleted]

osho as i have written in my post i m very happy..and not want to keep posting here..as i want to go off for some days..

well has you bothered to ask few questions..w
well osho all you questions are true?
and i have heard about them all..

but you understanding is what i can say not exactly correct..

about belief and trust
we can only say onething
either you trust believe or either you do not..

like a famous quotation said
a woman can either be pregnant or not pregnant
no woman can be either little bit pregnant and little bit not pregnant.

you said right when you said when you look back you laugh?
but these looking back theories doesnt apply here,
where the basic foundation is trust belief,
its like it has to be there or not there..

but its not like the age we keeps on changing..
when he wrote book..and now when he feels wrong
that means his mental stability is on stake..
that means brian cant be trusted at all..

who gave so many years to rssb and wrote a very wonderful book,
but later on he just not turn down his beliefs but start criticizing and gathering and encouraging more in doing so..

so if this was the future thought of brian that what all happened with brian was perfectly right..
thats the reason he havent gained and spiritual experience..w
what he gain may be he can call as spiritual experience but according to him..

and when you said ""I will give you one example. Someone asked him - Will you come
at the time of death? Now sant mat teaches that the master comes
at the time of death to take care of the soul.

Now listen to the reply; it will shock you if you are a
follower of traditional sant mat:

"Please try to understand what I am saying. Who will come? and who
will they come for? When there is only ONE?"

well this is true..he havent said anything wrong,its time is changing a lot,
why people havent gained much spiritual progress,if there are many reasons one reason is that they are carefree and keep on thinking that we are initiated and at the death time the master will come and rescue ...this is actually not an accurate thought for an inititate..
to be carefree..

look osho if you want in detail give me your email i will try my best to explain you in detail,
because whatever i post here tao and brain will distract my point of view..and i do not want to get into that discussion.

and when master said none have understood santmat?its very true his point was clearly to tao and brian and etc and etc..
who actually do not understand santmat,

osho..my very weakness is my inability to express,my perfection in english language is not that good that i can convey my expression perfectly,
like rakesh ji does
like george
even like you
and sometimes even i like tuscon
way of writting,

in this blog i admire,rakesh ji george,ashy
i use to have good thoughts about brian but now reading his post..i doubt ..i lost faith in him..

and my dear we all ask master question related to materialistic point of view and mind satisfactory questions..

thats why you get those kind on answers..
and its true..theres no particular fixed regions..

no osho i do not want to get into discussions here..
you email me at manishfantasticatgmail.com
i will reply you personally..

[Blogger Brian]

George, for me the money issue isn't so much about RSSB profiteering, but how these strongly-encouraged donations fit into the overall philosophy of the organization.

As you and others have noted, religions typically pass a "collection plate." But RSSB doesn't call itself a religion. Rather, a science of the soul.

OK, so in this case the donations would be like giving to the development fund at MIT or Cal Tech. Nothing wrong with that.

However, as some commenters have pointed out, with RSSB the message is that donating time, money, and such to the organization and guru confers spiritual benefits. This also is like a religion, in that fundamentalist Christian groups link "tithing to the Lord" with pleasing God.

Just wanted to point out this additional way of looking at the issue that has been discussed here.

[sapient]

My dear brother Manish..!!
You really need help. There is nothing wrong in following a path and then leaving it once you realize that its not a good fit for you or after realizing that you are not following a science but a cult.
The problem is when you are getting dragged by it, and still keep following because you are scared inside that something bad will happen if you will leave this path.
The problem is when you close your eyes and mind and keep following a path just because your three generations were following it.
The problem is when you live under an illusion that RSSB is the only solution and can not be criticized even by others.
I won't blame you but you are showing all the signs of an obsessed mind. And I firmly believe that RSSB has a whole lot of obsessed and scared people and they have become so by closing their minds and following the fearful path literally.

[Account Deleted]

sapera(sapient)
my dear innocent sapera,
you are among the one who is one of the silliest person involved in the post
you are a perfect example of ignorance read my post carefully dear again and again until you understand
3 generations is just a confirmation and proof for myself as we are going right
but my firm belief and trust on this path became more firm by many various reasons..
as i already mentioned in my pervious post many times
but you people are really dumb,not to understand the post,and just try accusing the other person for no reasons,

and my dear sapera i said many times i dont bother people coming out of rssb
its very natural thing which happens and is happening from the time of earth existed,
it happened with every saint and master through out the world,every one has faced criticism and thats the proof of negative power,
if saints would not have faced criticism then the whole world would have followed the single path,
its just a very natural thing..

but here my concern was totally different,
because here i can understand what has all happened with brian,
he went off the track is ok
but he is doing all this mess its not all ok
his claims about rssb are rubbish,

there are many many people who doesnt believe,
brian and tao is just among them..
my dear baby i m not at all scared of anything
you are really dumb dear
in spirituality theres no fear and scaredness,
if you are having this feeling of fear itself proves that you havent understood spirituality at all..
and what ever you believe about rssb followers is your own personal views and thoughts
you can continue having your own version of thoughts
its quite natural..

but please try to understand others first before replying for his posts..
ok dear
i m an follower of spirituality for many many wonderful great reasons,

and probably you all belongs to fear community..
i m among very few in this blog sharing my true identity
including tao and many arent even bold to pen down there real names..
contact infos..
why?
because of fear..
fear exist in you guys not in me..

i m always anytime ready to face anyone of you...
i know i m true,i m right
why the hell i will be scared..

so silly sapera..
so very much silly

you need rest for sometime dear..

[tAo]

George,

Again, for you and for the record, as I have already said previously:

"I was formally initiated into RSSB by Huzur Charan Singh in the 1970s."

And yes, that "is indeed the case".

I am definitely NOT "a hypocrite and a liar", because I have never said on this blog (or anywhere else) that I am not an initiated RS satsangi.

Why would I have any reason to lie and say that I am not an initiated RS satsangi, when the truth is that I was initiated in RS decades before Brian had ever started this blog.

Therefore, either you are confused and mistaken, or else you are deliberately looking to try to discredit me for some other reason.

Your claim that I suppoosedly said that I am not initiated and that I am lying, is totally bogus.

I have never said or in any way implied that I was not an initiate of RS. You can search every comment that I have ever posted in this entire blog and you will not find that I ever said such a thing.

I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to say that. And in fact, in some of the very first comments that I ever made here (back in 2005, I believe) you will find that I mentioned that I was a long-time initiate of RS. So George, this can only mean that it is really you George who is more the "liar" here.

I (like Brian) have to feel some irritation and even resentment about this less than honest attempt of yours to make me out to be "a liar".

And like Brian said, you could have simply asked me if you were in any doubt as to the facts. Or you could have simply accepted what I had said in that recent previous comment that you quoted.

But it appears that you weren't interested in resolving your doubts or confusion at all... you are more interested in discrediting me and accusing me of being a liar.

You are certainly always welcome to question me if you need clarification of this sort, but you are not welcome to label me "a liar" without any justification or evidence.

What kind of crap is that George? What is your problem here? If you had somehow mistakenly assumed, or you accidently misinterpreted that I was somehow not really an RS initiate - even in spite of the fact that I recently made it very clear that I had been an initiate of RS for over 30 years - then all you had to do was to realize that your previous assumption was incorrect and in error.

It is as simple as that George. But instead, you chose to totally ignore and/or disbelieve what I had just recently said about myself being a long-time RS initiate.

So this is really rather irritating, in view of that recent statement and testimony of mine which clearly indicated that I have in fact been an RS initiate for a very long time. So there was and is no legitimate justification for you to call me "a liar".

Who are you to say this about me? And what gives you the right to call me a liar? Where is your evidence George? Where have I ever said that I was not an RS initiate? It simply does not exist George, because I have never said that. I have no reason to deny that I am an initiated RS satsangi. I don't practice shabd yoga in the formal traditional sense anymore, but that does not mean that I am not an initiate, as you so claimed.

So actually, all this really reveals is that you George, for some kind of fucked-up reason, are trying to make me look like someone that I am not. Trying to put me down and discredit me, and call me a hypocrite.

Which btw, may also be tied into why you have, on occasion, supported and defended blatantly deceiptful troublemakers like JAP and Ashy. (But that is another issue that should be addressed elsewhere.)

So to quote you, it is really should be I who am the one who is "very dissapointed in your approach"... and also as it turns out, it is really YOU who are the one who is being "intellectually dishonest" about me.

And here are my comments to a few things other things that you stated:

"I believe you are a liar tAo and are intellectually dishonest."

-- Where is the evidence George? Show me where I said that I was never initiated in RS/Santmat. Show us the evidence George, or else it is you who is the one who is being "intellectually dishonest" in this case.

"You are in fact many of the things you accuse other people of."

-- There is no evidence of that anywhere. But this seems to be what you may in fact be doing here, on this particular issue.

"you will say or do anything to support those views."

-- No, I simply tell the truth as it is (about myself), and also I express my own opinions about various subjects.

"its reasonably clear to me that you fellas have an agenda here and have formed unsupported [...] conclusions.

-- No, there is no such "agenda" here. We are all simply sharing our own points of view, which actually happen to differ from one person to another. But in view of this bogus comment of yours calling me a liar about my being or not being an RS initiate, you do appear to have some kind of agenda other than simply getting clarification.

"You clearly told me in our previous exchange that you had not been initiated and that my assumption that you were an initiated ex-satsangi were in fact incorrect."

-- I have never said that. You are grossly mistaken. It doesn't exist because I never said that. Why would I say that if I really am an initiate? Why would I hide that? If I am going to criticise RS, then I have a much better position and more credibility to do so as an RS initiate, an RS satsangi, than a non-initiate non-satsatsangi.

So your assertion is wrong and its ridiculous in all respects. Why don't you just admit that you made a big mistake here George? Or are you just too arrogant to see
and admit your error?

You have made a significant error George, and you called me a liar for no just cause or reason... and so you owe me an apology.

"I'm actually not sure you guys know what you believe."

-- I know exactly what I think and how I see things, and I am sure Brian and Tucson and Osho and others know what they think too, but the real question here is you George. I think you don't know whats up here. I think you don't understand where other people are really at, and what this blog is really all about. And Brian can tell you that its definitely not about bashing RS.

"i distinctly remember Tao telling me that he had not been intiated into RS when i asked why you guys had bought into RS in the first place."

-- Wrong George. You are seriously mistaken. You may have actually confused me with someone else. You have done that before you know. Because I never said any such thing George.

"i get the distinct impression he's story keeps chopping and changing to suit."

-- That is your wrong impression George. I have never changed my story about my RS initiation in any way. However, there comes to mind another guy who has doubted and continues to doubt that I have ever been initiated, or that I have ever been to the RSSB Dera (ashram/colony) at Beas. I won't mention his name here, but he lives in the UK, and he says that he is not an initiate.
So you may be confusing me with him. He too tries to call me a liar regarding my affiliation with RS. But he is the one who may have put that in your mind, I don't know. Nevertheless, you owe me an apology because I have never said what you claim.

"I actually just don't know how honest you guys are."

-- George, it has to be your own dishonesty that makes you think this way. Brian has no reason to lie, nor do I. You can search all you want, but you will not find that I have ever said that I am not an RS initiate. I was initited by Charan Singh and I have also stayed at the RSSB Dera for periods of several months on several different occasions during the 1980s, and the last time being in the winter and spring of 1990, which was the months just prior to when my RS initiating master Charan Singh passed away in June of 1990.

"Are you crazy enough to distort things to such an extent as to save face?"

-- Not at all, but I suspect (in view of this issue) that you may be.

"these [...] issues are totally off the main point, which is the implication that RS are somehow profiteering."

-- I never said that RS is "profiteering" or anything like that. And Brian and Tucson didn't either. Actually I don't recollect anybody saying that. At the least, I think you are misinterpreting.

"Why do you think this upsets ppl?"

-- People get upset because their assumptions and/or belief systems are questioned or challenged. You yourself are an example of that.

"When your provocative views are aired they are public interest, but others are banned for not contributing to the subject."

-- Wrong. No one is "banned" because they are "not contributing". They are only banned when and if they are intentionally disruptive and insulting.

"Tao constantly reverts to lecturing based on some sort of self-assumed superior gravitas supposedly obtained from have learnt and done everything under the sun."

-- That is simply not so. And I have a right to express my opinions and share my own story. I have shown no such "self-assumed superior gravitas". If you are going to make such a claim George, you need to show the evidence. You are playing a devious little game here. If you think that one or more of my comments is "lecturing" or shows a "superior" attitude, then please make reference to it. Otherwise, as you
yourself said: "Its utter bullshit".

"I am not interested in what he, or anyone else, claims to 'know'."

-- But I don't claim to know anything George, except and only what I myself have experienced or have done in my own life.

"I am interested in a discussion of the content of the point in issue, not of the gravitas and credentials of the person making that point."

-- OK, then you shouldn't refer to your own credentials George, as you have done on at least one occasion awhile back.

"The most honest answer was given by Tucson, everyone can see that from a mile away."

-- But George, Tucson simply expressed some account about his own experiences at the RSSB Dera and that no donations were soliticed there, just exactly as I myself have done. So what then are you referring to? It seems that you are trying to make something out of nothing. Neither Brian, nor Tucson, nor I have said that that RSSB demanded or solicited donations at the RSSB Dera, or that the RSSB is "profiteering". So what ARE you talking about? I do believe that you are confused George. And I also think that you may be trying to distort the facts and what other people have said to suit yourself and discredit others.

So again, why don't you just simply admit that your have been mistaken and have misinterpreted a few things. Its no big deal. But it IS a big deal why you start calling honest people liars.

As Brian rightly said:

"What bothers me the most [...] is how people will go off on "flame wars" before getting facts straight. This is exactly what you [George] just complained about in your comments above, yet it is what you're guilty of in this case."

[tAo]

George said:

"i distinctly remember Tao telling me that he had not been intiated into RS when i asked why you guys had bought into RS in the first place."

"i get the distinct impression he's story keeps chopping and changing to suit."

-- That "impression" is flat out wrong.

Let me be very pointed and very clear about this:

There is one thing, above all else, that I have never ever wavered on, or changed, or have said anything otherwise or to the contrary.

And that is the simple fact of my own formal initiation into shadd yoga and the Radha Soami Satsang Beas (the Radha Soami Mat) by the previous RS master Huzur Charan Singh.

I have never even once said or implied at any place or time that I was not and am not an inititated RS satsangi.

I have maintained and stuck to that fact for more than 30 years. And I have no reason at all to deviate from that fact.

I have never had any reason whatsoever to deny my RSSB initiation, and expecially not here on this blog in any of the discussions about Sant Mat and RS, or in any of the other discussions and subject matters.

In view of what I have clearly said both here as well as on a number of previous occasions, anyone who tries to claim that I have said that I am not an RS initiate, or that I am not an RS initiate, is either grossly mistaken, or else they are intentionally promoting falsehood for other ulterior motives.

[George]

Brian,

Yes, well that is the point - is your assumption about RS of "strongly-encouraged donations" a correctly held one?

As i understand it, and from what Tucson has said, there is no requirement for a donation at all. Now whether it is explicitely advertised or taught that such donations are linked with spiritual reward, that is a question of evidence, do you actually have any to support this conclusion?

I've spoken to a few other RS folk who do not feel pressured to donate either time or money, their approach is not to invest time or money in writing books, giving satsangs or socialising like you did. Instead they prefer a private more contemplative and introspective approach. Could it be that their approach is actually the correct one?

tAo,

I should not have called you a liar, since i'll just be contributing to what i'm trying to avoid. Nevertheless, i am quite simply exasperated since i distinctly remember you telling me you were not initiated, and i normally have a pretty sharp memory, but i will let it go - we now know for sure you have been initiated into RS.

Which actually brings me back to a point I made those many months ago. If you guys could all see the absurd dogma and crookery of this organisation, why did you get intiated in the first place?

Also, instead of spending a year or two on such an absurdity, you guys all spent decades before arriving at your disgruntled RS outlook. I believe you have referred to it as cult, and more specifically a guru-cult movement.

Do you not think this is a bit strange? I mean what actually enticed you and made you stay as long as you did? Surely you knew that RS had a supposed living master who was thought to be GIHF before joining?

[George]

Actually, i've managed to find the exchange i was referring to it, it occurs at the bottom of the thread

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2009/07/tai-chi-doesnt-have-much-to-do-with-qi.html#comments

Tao was lecturing me on why RS was such a destructive, poisonous and evil cult. I then asked him why he himself had joined this cult in the first place. His response was:

"Wrong George. Totally wrong. I have never been into any religion or beliefs, nor have I "joined" any cults. I have never been in or into any cult. So you've got me mixed up with someone else. You've definitely got some very mistaken assumptions about me."

Now tell me if RS is a cult and you have been intiated into RS, how exactly can you say you have never been in or into any cult?

This is what i mean about rhetotic, its all just justifying your position.

[tucson]

George asked:

"Which actually brings me back to a point I made those many months ago. If you guys could all see the absurd dogma and crookery of this organisation, why did you get intiated in the first place?"

--Speaking for myself, I first found out about RSSB in the summer of 1968 when I was 19 years old. It sounded enticing to a starry-eyed, naive, neophyte with little sophistication, exposure, or understanding of cult mentality, spiritual paths and the ways of the world. Prior to that my only exposure to eastern meditative philosophies was TM (transcendental meditation with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi). Over time, my perspective has "matured" and RSSB is no longer relevant or needed. But I don't see it as deliberate crookery or a fleecing operation as you put it. It is simply a large semi-feudal operation with a lot of donated money and manpower based on an illusory premise whose figurehead and his family are the beneficiaries.

George asked: "Also, instead of spending a year or two on such an absurdity, you guys all spent decades before arriving at your disgruntled RS outlook. I believe you have referred to it as cult, and more specifically a guru-cult movement."

--That is exactly what it is in my opinion, but it took time to realize this. There is a great deal of emotional and intellectual commitment to this path which is not easy to overcome. There is a certain mindset which blinds one to the reality of what RSSB is and what the guru is not. But I am not "disgruntled" about my years with this path. It's over and done with and I have moved on. I discuss it out of familiarity and a curiosity about how those still entangled react to the perspective of someone who sees this path differently. RS did teach me about good character traits and values that have served me well in life and in my relationships with others.

George asked: "Do you not think this is a bit strange? I mean what actually enticed you and made you stay as long as you did? Surely you knew that RS had a supposed living master who was thought to be GIHF before joining?"

---Well, if you are naive and are told that this guru has all these supernatural powers and can grant you visons of God and spiritual splendor you figure you might give it a shot. I mean it sounds pretty good to be among the chosen few to be sheltered under the cloak of this godman who supposedly has the responsibility to deliver you from the darkness of "Pinda", the physical universe, to the eternal bliss and light of the highest spiritual region while the rest of the creation wallows in ignorance. If you believe this, you feel very fortunate. Also, when you see literally hundreds of thousands in rapt devotion to this path and guru you tend to believe they can't all be wrong and deceived. We hear the story of the pied piper early in life but fail to recognise such a situation when we actually get caught up in it..

[Account Deleted]

hi george
what tuscon said is right and true..
he is very right in his expression and confession
but george do also take this thing in consideration
what tuscon has said you is just a mere point of view..

because this blog and particular thread is about anti rs..activities and activism,

there is always another point of view as well
which in fact is not mentioned here..if suppose any would have mentioned his psot would have been deleted..

there are many people who were engaged to other religions,worships beliefs and system which later on turn down from the one they followed to rssb..because thet found rssb more genuine and for them the spirituality truth is more validly found in rssb so they turn down their years of faith and start believing in rssb
this is another point of view..
both the things happen
its very natural very common..
nothing strange in it.

but what is to see and worth understanding
after dedicately following a path..if suppose according to you who once really liked the spiritualism of rssb but then the same you after years claim that you understood and now trying to get out of itself shows that you are ignorant..
but then it is also natural,
but why you guys unnecessary try to exploit and criticize the path,
don't you think it was your inability to understand the path lead you this way..
and tuscon said ""RS did teach me about good character traits and values that have served me well in life and in my relationships with others.""

Is this what you have learned till now..

tuscon tao and brian and dear osho
onething is very very very simply simple..
if what tao brian tuscon think of the path today..
as i already mentioned earlier
if this was meant to happen at this moment,then actually it itself somehow proves that this path has been not followed by you guys..the way it has to be followed..

because if at all you would have followed,you would have never come into this state of mind,where in you would have started abusing,bashing and criticizing the path..

now again another point of view

Brian say manish is wrong
manish say brian is wrong
now who will decide who is wrong and who is not..

brian think manish is in illusion
manish think brian is in illusion

now tell me who really is in illusion
reply me honest,without you only being the center of attraction and replying to this post asusally under your favorable extent.

and the way tao behaved with rakesh ji and george it self proves he havent followed the path the way he has to,

the way he reacted to me is normally
as i know myself i was many times rude and harsh with tao ,so i can expect the same from him.
but george and rakesh ji has always been very decent and kind to tao but still he havent gave the respect they deserved..

george its simple
if you agree to this guys they will like you
if you give this guys good questions they will like you
if you give this guys mind satifactory answers they will like you
but if you say them they are wrong they will not spare you..
brian uses his butter expression way
and tao use his asusual rude,arrogance and harsh nature..and reply it that way..

and tuscon you said
"" Over time, my perspective has "matured" and RSSB is no longer relevant or needed.""

this statement of yours itself say you havent even understood the A B C of spirituality..

you take any book regarding spirituality
]may be guru grath sahib
bhagwat gita
khuran
bible
every book mention the same things
complete surrender to the will of master
complete belief to the master

unless you cannot reach anywhere..

no one has put gun on your head to follow particular path
you made your own conscious attempt and effort,
now when you guys failed
you can only blame yourself not anyone else..

my message for you is only to say
if you can do good to others
don't do bad atleast..

[Account Deleted]

if you cant do good to others
dont do bad atleast.

[Blogger Brian]

George, you asked whether there is any evidence that RSSB links monetary donations with spiritual progress. Of course, there is. I say "of course," because those of us who have been associated with RSSB for many years and decades know this.

I realize that you aren't very familiar with the RSSB literature, so I crawled up into our garage's crawl space to retrieve Sawan Singh's "Philosophy of the Masters" series. Sawan Singh is known as the Great Master, so his writings represent solid Sant Mat, RSSB version.

In the first book of the series, there's a chapter on "Spiritual Discipline -- Physical Service (Seva)." Sawan Singh says:

"According to the Granth Sahib, there are four kinds of service:
1. Physical or manual service -- that rendered with the body.
2. Service with wealth.
3. Service rendered by mind.
4. Service rendered by soul."

So who should get this service? Sawan Singh says:

"The highest type of service is that to the Master. Guru Arjan Sahib says:
'Whatever service is possible for you to do with your hands for the Master, you should do it, because it is the Master who gives us the protection of His Hands and saves us from the fire of transmigration.'"

And...

"Of all types of service in the world, service to the Master is acceptable in the Court of the Lord, because by such worship one can gain admittance into His Court."

Regarding wealth seva (making monetary contributions), Sawan Singh says:

"Who can serve a Master? In other words, who can attain God-realization? Only such persons can do so who sacrifice their mind and their wealth for the service of their Guru (Master)."

So it's clear: to realize God, you have to serve a Master. And serving a Master involves sacrificing your mind and wealth in the Guru's service.

Regarding another point in your comment, long-standing initiates like me who eventually decide that RSSB isn't for them can't win.

You criticize us for not realizing within a short time that this path wasn't what we were looking for. Others frequently criticize us in comments on this blog for not sticking with RSSB practices for much longer.

Do you see the illogic in your argument, George? I've talked about this before. It's like a marriage. In my first marriage I was married for eighteen years. By your logic, I should have gotten divorced in year 1 or 2, because I should have seen that eventually my wife and I wouldn't get along.

But at the time we were happy. And remained so for many years. It was only when both of us decided that it was time to split up, that we got a divorce.

Buying into spirituality or religion isn't like purchasing a car and finding right away that it has lots of problems. There aren't instant signs of truth or untruth on a spiritual or religious path.

With RSSB, you're told that it takes a long time to clear your karmas through meditation and service to the Guru. So I gave the RSSB practices a good long test: about 35 years.

By nature, I tend to be a committed person. I stayed married to both my first wife and RSSB for a long time. Heck, I've been getting my hair cut by the same person for 32 years now. So it fits that I'd do everything I could to test the truth of the "science of the soul" that RSSB teaches.

Others surely have gotten different results. I just share mine on this blog, as do others.

[tucson]

Manish said: "because if at all you would have followed,you would have never come into this state of mind,where in you would have started abusing,bashing and criticizing the path.."

---How can you know this? Because the teachings say that if they are followed correctly there will be success?

You have no idea what degree of effort or sincerity we put into the path. You do not know if we followed correctly or not. You just assume on the basis or your faith that we must not have followed correctly or we would not feel as we do now. But what if your assumption is incorrect and it is the master who has failed and not us?

Who are you to criticise our commitment to the path when you yourself do not follow the guru's instructions and engage in debate with non-believers such as ourselves?

Manish said: "brian think manish is in illusion...manish think brian is in illusion

now tell me who really is in illusion
reply me honest,without you only being the center of attraction and replying to this post asusally under your favorable extent."

---All we are saying is that there is no objective evidence RSSB is true. So, Manish, if you want someone to believe and have faith in what you believe you may have to provide more evidence than you are able to provide. How can you prove Sant Mat and the guru are what they claim to be? The burden of proof is on you.

Manish said: "this statement of yours itself say you havent even understood the A B C of spirituality..

you take any book regarding spirituality
]may be guru grath sahib
bhagwat gita
khuran
bible
every book mention the same things
complete surrender to the will of master
complete belief to the master"

---Manish, I think it is you who does not understand the ABC of spirituality because there are many philosophies that do not require complete belief and surrender to the Master. Ch'an/Zen, Buddhism, Taoism, and Advaita Vedanta are good places to start.

Manish said: "now when you guys failed
you can only blame yourself not anyone else.."

---Let me clarify. I do not view my current position as one of failure. I am satisfied that my current understanding surpasses RSSB dogma. I feel that I have recognized "truth" in a way that RSSB is not even aware of. But I don't tell others that my way is the only way or that they are failures for not recognizing that. I simply express my point of view as best I can.

Manish said: "my message for you is only to say
if you can do good to others
don't do bad atleast.."

---No one here is intending any harm. It is you who is taking it that way, but it is not personal. All we are doing is discussing philosophy. It's no big deal. If you don't like it, you can attend to your simran and bhajan as your master enjoins you to do instead of engaging with us here.

[George]

Tucson,

Thank you for a very honest account, I can understand and appreciate all of what you have said.

You said you have also dabbled in TM when you were younger, are there any other mystic traditions that you have practiced which you felt you got alot out of? From listening to what you have said on nonduality, you appear to have moved away from the concept of a living master.

Manish,

Yes, I am aware there are different viewpoints. Tucson appears to consider it a cult of sorts, but that's his viewpoint without gratuitous bashing. His viewpoint is subjective and his comments reflect and acknowledge that.

I understand you feel RS is the path for you and the ultimate path, which is also a subjective viewpoint. In fact, I think Sant Mat is based on the teachings of the different saints not so, implying perhaps different paths are possible for achieving the same ultimate experience?

Brian,

Fair enough that seems pretty solid evidence. I can understand how donations would be a good thing, but i would think it would be more voluntarily encouraged (i.e. coming from the heart as it were and in accordance with one's means), rather then with the carrot of some spritial reward, so that does not look great to me. I will probably need to read some of the literature.

I am not criticising you for lack of effort, only you know that and it sounds like there was alot of effort. Instead, my criticm is that if RS is to be tarred and feather the evidence at least needs to be there for doing so. I mean one person's cult is another's salvation.

These spiritual beliefs are clearly very dearly held, and presumably once upon a time you shared them, so it just seems that if one is to bash it you gotta expect ppl to get upset but i mean you know that.

[Account Deleted]

it is the master who has failed and not us?

my dear holy dear tuscon the above words of your itself the proof of your ignorance,

theres nothing more left to say to you after reading this words from you..

now i believe you
what you did was right
i agree your point of view towards rssb
your are correct

a person like you will have to stick with those kind of thoughts only
well done....tuscon..

wow wow wow
what another bunch of words
"I feel that I have recognized "truth" in a way that RSSB is not even aware of"

great tuscon
your now in my list
after tao..
good good
keep doing keep going..

george i will personally respond to your email address soon.

[tucson]

George asked: "You said you have also dabbled in TM when you were younger, are there any other mystic traditions that you have practiced which you felt you got alot out of? From listening to what you have said on nonduality, you appear to have moved away from the concept of a living master."

---I became friends with some people who were Siddha Yoga devotees about ten years ago. They invited me to their satsang and I enjoyed the intimate atmosphere of ceremony, chanting, incense, candles, devotional songs and meditation. Since I play guitar it was sort of a yogic jam session for me which was fun and rather elevating. I went regularly for a couple of years but eventually had to quit because I never could put their guru, Swami Chidvilasananda (successor to Swami Muhktananda), on the same pedestal they did. In fact, I didn't believe in her at all (lots of dirt on that lineage), but I do believe that chanting and music are transformative and beneficial if one is so inclined.

One time, at a satsang at the RSSB Dera in India I was having "darshan" (sitting quietly in the presence of the master). I became totally absorbed in his presence. At this point I became aware of a "field of golden white light" enveloping us. There was no longer the master and me, just this presence of light and awareness. It appeared that the master was experiencing the same thing and I attributed this to his grace, as they put it.

Later, I had simmilar experiences with other people present and I learned that this awareness in light is inherent in all of us naturally. During these moments it appears that everyone is aware in this light even though they may have no conscious idea of it. There is no requirement to have a guru to perceive it. In other words, it was not the entity "Charan Singh" that was responsible for this perception. It arose spontaneously within me as a result of my own state of mind, or rather, the lack of it. For it is when mind fasts that awareness shines in its purity.

So, I think that a master can be a catalyst for what is innate within us, but so can many other things such as a beautiful vista or even absorbtion in activities like running, surfing or riding a horse.

I like the idea of a teacher that can serve as a signpost for where truth may be seen, but I don't like the idea of the guru as an entity to which we owe slavish obedience as our omnipotent saviour and sole source of spiritual reality.

[tAo]

In regards to George and George's comments:

Both Tucson's and Brian's comments in response to George are very well articulated and accurately address the issue, they and both reflect my own sentiments on all of their points. So anything I could or would say at this point would be redundant. If I were to comment, all I would be doing is repeating exactly what they have already pointed out. My conclusions are virtually the same as theirs, with the only exception being that I started moving away from of RS in about ten years time rather than staying much longer. But I gave RS a serious run during those ten or so years. My reasons for getting into RS were basically the same as theirs, and my reasons for leaving it behind were very much same as theirs - namely that my spiritual interests and spititual growth process took me onward in other more meaningful directions, and not because I had failed to make progress or failed to understand it as Manish so mistakenly, yet repeatedly asserts. Thats because when it comes to understanding anything about other people's spiritual orientations or their pathways, Manish has no clue.

Which then leads me on to commenting about what Manish said:

Manish said: "if what tao brian tuscon think of the path today. [...] then actually it itself somehow proves that this path has been not followed by you guys..the way it has to be followed.." "because if at all you would have followed,you would have never come into this state of mind,where in you would have started abusing,bashing and criticizing the path.."

-- This is nothing more than a version of the usual straw-man or catch-22 argument. Saying that people who criticise something (in this case a spiritual path) do so because they didn't understand it or because they didn't really follow it for their entire liife. Its absurd and its really not even worth addressing. This kind of rationale (or I should say lack of reason) is bogus and only reflects the stupidity of those who present such nonsense.

Manish said: "and the way tao behaved with rakesh ji and george it self proves he havent followed the path the way he has to,"

Manish said: "george and rakesh ji has always been very decent and kind to tao but still he havent gave the respect they deserved."

Manish said: "and tao use his asusual rude,arrogance and harsh nature..and reply it that way."

-- All of that is absolutely incorrect. You are perpetuating a distortion and a lie.

My comments to George (and Rakesh) have been far more respectful, tactful, and accurate than yours have. I have shown no such "rude,arrogance and harsh" to George or to Rakesh. Even though George has outright called me a liar - and that was both rude and arrogant - even after I had clearly indicated (both recently and on many other occasions here during the past 4 years) that I was an initiated RS satsangi.

Even your own comments Manish are far more rude and arrogant than mine. I go to great lengths to be very tactful and reasonable and fairly respectful towards other people. You on the other hand, have not. So for you to say that I am not respectful or that I have not "followed the path" is downright utter bullshit.

I have been very reasonable and tactful and patient with both George and Rakesh. So what you are saying here is nothg but a big fat distortion and falsification of the facts.

Go back and look at most of my comments to George and Rakesh over the past months. And then go look at your ridiculous ranting insulting comments (many of which Brian had to edit or even delete btw).You are nobody to be lecturing other people about being rude or being disrespectful.

Frankly, most of your ridiculous rambling comments make you sound like an irrational religious wing-nut. So quit trying to cast me in a bad light, when your own comment are atrocious. My comments to other people are fairly articulate, honest yet tactful, open-minded, and usually pretty accurate.

Yours are obviously not. So you are noboby to be calling me or anyone else rude and arrogant and disrectful. And I know others here will back me up on this.

So Manish, quit trying to make such false and bogus depictions of me and my comments.

Manish said: "and tuscon [...] you havent even understood the A B C of spirituality..
you take any book regarding spirituality
may be guru grath sahib bhagwat gita khuran bible
every book mention the same things
complete surrender to the will of master complete belief to the master
unless you cannot reach anywhere."

-- That is pure unabashed dogma. Devotion to a guru is only one path among many. To say that iis the only way, is profoundly ignorant, dogmatic, and uneducated.

As Tucson has rightly said: "Manish, I think it is you who does not understand the ABC of spirituality because there are many philosophies that do not require complete belief and surrender to the Master. Ch'an/Zen, Buddhism, Taoism, and Advaita Vedanta are good places to start."

Manish your view of spirituality is clearly very narrow-minded. Thats alright if you want to be that way just for yourself, but you certainly can't rightfully foist that on other people.

Your understanding of the various spiritual philosophies and paths is obviously very limited... which is why you tend to be so dogmatic and judgemental towards other folks and their different spiritual outlooks and directions. Your judgemental attitude is a common trait of people who have spiritual and religious views that are more fundamentalist in nature. Thats why you are unable to undertand people like Brian and Tucson and Osho and myself. You just don't have the perspective and experience and open-mindedness that others do.

Manish said: "no one has put gun on your head to follow particular path you made your own conscious attempt and effort, now when you guys failed you can only blame yourself"

-- It is only you Manish who thinks other people have "failed". No one has failed. Life, as well as spirituality, is an ongoing process of growth and change. Just because other people choose to move in other diretions does not mean that they failed. No more than you have failed by not going in the same direction they have. There is no logic or reason in your narrow-minded judgements. Its just dogmatic religious fundamentalism. Just because some people do not remain with RS and they go on in other directions, does not mean that they have failed. Spirituality is avery broad spectrum, and that more evident in India than anywhere else.

[tAo]

Manish said: "it is the master who has failed and not us?"

-- It is neither the master nor us. No one has "failed". It is not about succes or failure. The master is not perfect and he is merely playing his role as master. Disciples are not perfect either, but they haven't failed just because they choose to go another direction. True spirituality is not a matter of success or failure or reaching some goal. It is a matter of awareness and growth and finding peace and harmony with oneself.

"dear tuscon the above words of your[s] itself the proof of your ignorance"

-- Not so. To grow and evolve and to move on from RS into a broader spirituality is not ignorance. Ignorance is to remain stuck in dogma and to rigidly adhere to doctrine and supposed saviors based upon the belief that that is the only way to salvation.

Tucson said: "I feel that I have recognized "truth" in a way that RSSB is not even aware of"

Manish replied (sarcastically): "great tuscon your now in my list after tao.."

-- Nobody cares about your "list" Manish. No one gives a damn what you think. You behave here as if you are the ultimate judge of everyone and their spirituality, as if it is you decide who is right and who is wrong and who is ignorant and who understands. You are absolutely ridiculous Manish. Thats incredibly presumptious, immature, self-possessed and narcissistic. Tucson has honestly shared his story and his views (and so have others). You are not the judge of other people's spirituality. All you have done here is to show everyine how totally deluded and narrow-minded you are. But then I already knew that a long time ago.

Like Brian recently said to you, why don't your get off your high horse and particpate here. But actually you really don't belong here in view of most of your comments, which are mostly just meaningless static. Why don't you go find some RS satsangis to talk with. There is a better place for thatr than here. Its the Radhsoamistudies Yahoo Group. You will find people there who are more interested in the subject of Santmat and RS than here. I suggest you go there to carry on your views and issues. Discussing everything pertaining to Sant Mat and Radha Soami is what that site and that group is all about: Sant Mat and Radha Soami. You will be much better off over there and you will find many more like-minded satsangis.

Here is the link to that group for you:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radhasoamistudies/

[tAo]

And Manish, here is another Yahoo group that is devoted to discussing Radha Soami:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RADHASOAMI-REALITY/

Brian's site is for the Churchless. You are not a churchless person at all. You are a staunch believer in Radha Saomi. So you really should be hanging out at these other discussion groups I have just given you links to. All you are doing here is making static and harassing and insulting people who have moved away from Santmat into a more churchless outlook. You should go to those other sites where you will find people that think more like you. I am simply steering you in a better direction where you can discuss with more like-minded people. Because frankly Manish, you really don't fit in here at Church of the Churchless at all. Good luck.

[Blogger Brian]

Manish, I agree with tucson and tAo: once again you've gotten into a whole lot of preaching, and little or no discussing. Preachy comments will be deleted -- that's the policy of this blog.

You're devoted to Sant Mat. That's fine. But this isn't a place to preach the glory of Sant Mat and the guru. tAo has pointed out some other web sites where this can be done. Or you can start your own blog.

[tAo]

George,

I've tried to put this issue to rest, but in your last comment to me you still appear to be defending your claim that I said that I was not initiated.

The evidence that you give is where you refer to a previous comment of mine (posted on July 11, 2009 at 03:46 AM).

You say that I had been "lecturing" you on why RS is a cult. And then you quoted my comment of July 11, 2009 at 03:46 AM as being an indication and evidence to support your previous claim wherein you said that I had supposedly said in the past that I was not an RS initiate, about which you then you called me a liar.

But George, the all-important and crucial problem with your claim, as well as with your reference to my July 11, 2009 at 03:46 AM comment as evidence, is this:

In my comment of last July 11 that you refer to, I actually never said anything even remotely to the effect that I have 'never initiated in RS'.

All that I had said was this:

"I have never been into any religion or beliefs, nor have I "joined" any cults. I have never been in, or into any cult."

This simply means that I (meaning me myself) have never been INTO any religion or INTO any beliefs, and also that I have not JOINED any cults. Nothing more than that.

Which is very different than saying that I was not an RS initiate. It is not the same at all. It is not what you claim or what you apparently have interpreted it to mean. In that July 11, 2009 at 03:46 AM comment, I did NOT actually say that I was not an RS initiate. It is YOU who have mistakenly interpreted it that way. However, I simply did NOT SAY what you claim that I said.

I simply said that I have never been INTO any religion or beliefs, and that I have never JOINED any cults.

So the the crux of this thing is that you have assumed that my saying that I am not into religion, beliefs, and cults means that I must not be an RS initiate.

But that is a very false assumption, an very incorrect assumption. Here is why:

A long time ago when I applied for, and was then given formal initiation into the RS shabd yoga meditation path by Charan Singh (the previous master/guru of RSSB), that had nothing to do with being into any religion, or having or holding any beliefs, or joining any cults. The RS initiation has nothing to do with any of those things.

The actual formal RS initiation (event) is simply about the aspirant receiving the secret internal mantra which is referred to as "simran" (meaning 'repetition'), and the accepting of the four vows, which are:

1) strict vegetarianism (no meat or eggs).
2) abstinence from alcohol and recreational drugs.
3) a pure moral life (no sex outside of marriage).
4) two hours of shab yoga meditation daily.

In the actual formal RS initiation event, there is nothing anywhere that is stated or expected where the aspirant must be (as I had said) "into any religion", or "into" any "beliefs", or getting "joined" to any "cult".

That is why I said simply that "I have never been in, or into any cult." And that is the truth. What I said in that comment I posted on July 11, 2009 at 03:46 AM says nothing about not being an RS initiate. It simply says that:

"I have never been into any religion or beliefs, nor have I "joined" any cults. I have never been in, or into any cult", and that is true.

Getting initiated into the RS path of shabd yoga meditiation does not imply having any religion, holding any particular beliefs, or joining any cult.

Now the RS cult organization is quite another different thing altogether. But when one simply receives the RS initiation into the shabd yoga meditation, there is no religion, beliefs, or cult involved.

That does not mean that many if not most all of the people that get initiated don't go on to be part of the cult, they do, but not all. Being part of the RS cult is a separte thing altogether. A person could receive the RS shabd yoga initiaton and never become part of the RS guru cult and organization. And I am one of those people.

So as I stated, "I have never been into any religion or beliefs, nor have I "joined" any cults. I have never been in, or into any cult."

That is simply a statement of fact about MYSELF. And it does not say or imply that I did not get initiated in the RS meditation path. I have explained all of this in even greater detail in other comments in the past, both here at Church of the Churchless as well as at the radhasoamistudies Yahoo group forum.

So George, if this July 11, 2009 comment of mine is where you had got this mistaken idea where you assumed that I said that I was 'never initiated', then you did not read it very carefully, and you also obviously interpreted it completely wrong... simply because, as anyone can easily see, I actually never said that I had not received initiation of the RS shabd yoga meditation.

And that is born out by your subsequent comment of July 11, 2009 at 03:53 AM (see below). For some reason I guess I must have missed that comment because as you can see if you go to that thread/page, I did not reply. So I just must have missed or over-looked your response. Perhaps I was out of town or I was not online for a few days. I don't remember.

Nevertheless, in your response posted on July 11, 2009 at 03:53 AM it appears that it was actually YOU George who were the one who said that I had "never joined RS". I did not say that, YOU said it.

Here is what YOU had said back to me:

"Tao,
So in that case you actually never joined RS, which you say is a cult, and for which you've been telling everyone you know inside and out?"
Posted by: George | July 11, 2009 at 03:53 AM

So therefore, it now becomes revealed and quite obvious that it was actually YOU George who were the one who said that I had "never joined RS". I was not the one who said that, it was YOU who said that. And now, a few months later, you come back and make this bogus attempt to falsely claim that I had said it. That is wrong George.

So quite clearly George, it is really YOU who are the one who in a sense has fabricated a lie here, and not I. YOU are the one who was confused and YOU were the who jumped to conlusions and misinterpreted what I had originally said, and then it also was YOU who went on to assert that I had "actually never joined RS"... when in reality I had NEVER said that.

This is exactly why I have stated in ALL my recent comments that I would never say that I was not initiated. And now the real truth comes out:

The truth is that I did NOT ever say any such thing... YOU WERE THE ONE WHO HAD SAID IT George.

So I think this is somewhat related to what Brian was talking about when he mentioned something about you doing exactly what you try to accuse other people of doing.

It turns out that all along it was really YOU George who said that, and not me at all.

So George, let that be a lesson to you... to not jump to conclusions and put words into other people's mouths.

Its disingenuous and its wrong, and it causes a lot of unnecessary confusion and misunderstanding and gives people false impressions.

Like I said before George, YOU really owe ME an apology, a big apology. And this here is the undeniable proof of that, right here in black and white.

*Note: If anyone wants to see the actual comments between George and I (as if anyone really cares) then you can find them at the very bottom of the page under Brian's post of July 05, 2009 titled: "Tai Chi doesn't have much to do with "Qi"... You can get there via this link:

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2009/07/tai-chi-doesnt-have-much-to-do-with-qi.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2011570ff1101970c#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2011570ff1101970c

[George]

Tao,

Thats alot of nonsense, you did lie and i will repeat what was said.

Tao: "The following video is why I criticise the cult and dogma of Radha Soami (RS) ... All these cults and their dogma and their supposed gods, saints, masters and mysticism are very BAD news... Watch this video and perhaps you may start to understand why RS (just like the cult described in the video) is so poisonous and destructive and evil."
Posted by: +@o | July 11, 2009 at 02:26 AM

I responded by asking why had you joined this cult and you responded:
Tao: "Wrong George. Totally wrong. I have never been into any religion or beliefs, nor have I "joined" any cults. I have never been in or into any cult. So you've got me mixed up with someone else. You've definitely got some very mistaken assumptions about me."
Posted by: +@o | July 11, 2009 at 03:46 AM

You are the one who is clearly wrong and you are the one who lied, since by your own admission you have been into RS which is a cult.

I actually cannot believe you are defending the indefensible. Your minds are so closed it is frightening.