Getting rid of religious garbage...also garbage?

It's great to dispose of garbage that's been hanging around, whether physical or conceptual. But it isn't easy to do this perfectly purely.

Back in my Systems Science graduate school days, in the late 1970's, I remember a classmate asking a heartfelt question: "I've started to recycle my plastics. But the best place to put the containers is in a plastic bag -- which can't be recycled. What can I do with the bag?"

Similarly, in Rational Mysticism science writer John Horgan speaks about how Zen (and similar disciplines) is viewed "as a kind of rubbish-removal system that cleanses the mind of extraneous beliefs and emotions so that we can see reality as it truly is."

Horgan says that he liked this metaphor at first. It makes skepticism into a virtue, since it clears away cumbersome beliefs on an intellectual level just as meditation ideally clears away beliefs on an experiential level.

However, he goes on...

My handling of real rather than metaphorical garbage gradually gave me a more complicated view of the matter. In my kitchen, we put garbage in bags that come in boxes of twenty. After I yank the last bag from its box, the box becomes trash, which I put in the bag. Sometime after I interviewed Susan Blackmore [who described Zen as garbage removal], every time I pulled the last bag from the box and stuffed the box into the bag, I intuited a paradox lurking within this ritual.

I went through more garbage bags than I care to mention before I solved the riddle: Every garbage-removal system generates garbage. Zen apparently works as an efficient garbage-removal system for Susan Blackmore and James Austin. But as minimalistic as it is, Zen clutters more than it clarifies my mind. Once I started down this line of thinking, it was hard to stop. I began looking askance at skepticism, too.

Maybe skepticism, instead of cleansing our vision, just substitutes one type of trash for another. Instead of belief in reincarnation, angels, ESP, E.T., parallel universes, and the Oedipus complex, the skeptic crams his mind with disbelief in reincarnation, angels, and so on. The problem is that any truth or anti-truth, no matter how initially revelatory and awe-inspiring, sooner or later turns into garbage that occludes our vision of the living world.

Well, that last sentence seems excessively negative to me.

I can see what Horgan is saying -- thinking about life isn't the same as actually living life -- but isn't obsessing over the exactitude of garbage removal also a form of mental garbage generation?

I mean, what if Horgan simply threw the empty box into the last garbage bag and didn't worry about creating a little bit of extra trash?

He's gotten rid of a whole lot of garbage in the twenty bags. What's the big deal with generating a small amount of trash in order to clean up a large amount? (Plus, the trash bags we use come in a cardboard box, which can be recycled.)

I'm more positive about skepticism than Horgan is. Sure, sweeping up a bunch of unnecessary beliefs that have been littering the floor of a psyche can result in a few bristles being dislodged from the skeptical broom.

No big deal. A small price to pay for a good mind-cleaning. Throw away the bits of skeptical residue and enjoy your dogma-free handiwork.

So I don't agree that skepticism is anywhere near as great a garbage-generator as religious belief. Still, Horgan does make this valid point:

Thinking, "I don't believe in unicorns" brings to mind...unicorns. Thinking, "I don't believe in God" brings to mind...God.

In this sense, skepticism needs to be a temporary consciousness-cleaning tool. It's possible to become as obsessed with not believing as in believing, just as some recently-divorced people can't stop talking about what a jerk their ex-spouse was.

Hey, you're divorced! Time to move on.

I suspect that some readers of this blog think that I spend most of the day pondering the evils of religion and what fresh churchless rant I'm going to write next.

Not true. Mostly my life is occupied with living.

Chores. Eating. Walking the dog. Exercising. Volunteering. Practicing Tai Chi. Riding my scooter. Watching TV. Sleeping. Reading the newspaper. Whatever.

I've done a pretty good job of taking out the dogma garbage that used to clutter up my mind. Most of my blog posts are more of a recollection of that cleaning process, than an effort to throw away more blind beliefs.

Alex Szeto of the Unitarian Universalists Hong Kong (UUHK) just emailed me a link to a video that makes a good point: not-believing isn't how people live their lives. It's as valid to say that Christians are people who don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster as that atheists are people who don't believe in God.

Skepticism about religion isn't really about generating negative mind-garbage. It's an affirmation of the natural world. Take a look.

Comments

[tucsoN]

Horgan wrote:

" Zen apparently works as an efficient garbage-removal system for Susan Blackmore and James Austin. But as minimalistic as it is, Zen clutters more than it clarifies my mind."

--Then he doesn't understand Zen. Zen isn't about dropping concepts (clutter), it is about dropping concepts about dropping concepts about dropping concepts ad infinitum.

This is my beef (my clutter) with formalized zen. The kernel of zen is "pristine" but still the abbots and masters cloak it with formalities(clutter)...robes, titles, ceremonies, disciplines, incense, purpose, etc.

[trigger]

I am looking for a forum where I can post my experiences about RSSB, I am anxious to tell others what is really going on, and how fake this organization is, Can I send my comments to someone privately, or should I just post here?

[tAo]

Trigger,

Yes, post it here. Post it all right here. Post anything you want to. This is the place where you can tell your own story about RS, whatever that may be.

[Brian]

Trigger, either way. You can add comments to a post as you see fit. Or sometimes people email me messages they want to share (see link in right column).

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Trigger,

It is church of the churchless. Disgruntled people from RRSB are most welcome. As far as initial good experiences, which attracted the people towards RSSB and glued them to it for a long period of time, were by and large similar.

In fact, You should freely elaborate your experiences, particularly bad ones.

With regards,

[tucsoN]

Trigger,

Being an ex-satsangi, I am interested in hearing about your experiences with RSSB.

Fire away!

[Roger]

"Disgruntled people from RRSB"

--I think the regulars, here, are not disgruntled. They are at peace with themselves. They have just moved on....

[Juan]

Babaji,Don Gurinder Singh Dhillon,the Present Living Master said recently in Q&A session, Brother,you may have one or many or millions of questions, but the answer to all the questions is only one, MEDITATION,MEDITATION, MEDITATION.

[Brian]

Juan, let's say this is true. Meditation is the answer to all the questions. There still are questions...

(1) What is "meditation"? There are so many kinds, so many practices, so many ways.

(2) Where did the answer, "the answer is meditation," come from? This must have come from meditation. But how did the answerer know to find the answer in meditation?

(3) What if someone meditates like crazy and does indeed find an answer in meditation: "there are no answers in meditation"? Does this count as the answer to all the questions?

(4) Why do people in different religions all meditate -- Buddhists, Christians, HIndus, etc. -- and find different answers to the same questions in meditation? (Buddhists find no God; Christians find Jesus; etc.)

[Roger]

"Brother,you may have one or many or millions of questions, but the answer to all the questions is only one, MEDITATION,MEDITATION, MEDITATION."

---Well, brother Gurinder, have you ever wondered why someone would have so many questions? I would ask, why the need to repeat the meditation word, three times? Why not four times? Thanks for an answer, that doesn't blow smoke up my ass.

[tAo]

Rakesh, you said:

"Disgruntled people from RRSB are most welcome."

-- Rakesh, I am just wondering, do you think or feel that most of the other good folks here are "disgruntled people from RSSB"? Why do you call them "disgruntled"? Isn't it possible that they are not disgruntled at all, but simply chose or went other directions in their spirituality? So why do you assume that everyone that moves away from RS must be "disgruntled"?

You also said: "As far as initial good experiences, which attracted the people towards RSSB and glued them to it for a long period of time, were by and large similar."

-- Similarly, how or why do you assume that the initial experiences of people who got into RSSB were all "similar"? How would or could you know that? In fact, it has been evident from the various testimonies of many different satsangis, that each had varying and different experiences and also different reasons that "attracted" them to RS. So why then do you then come along and claim that most satsangis had "similar" initial experiences? Since that is not the case, it must then be your own wishful fantasy. Do you see how your view and assumptions about other satsangis or so-called ex-satsangis is not altogether correct?

Also, you have indicated that you are currently a devoted RSSB satsangi. So then, why do you choose to blatantly disregard the current RS master's formal published prohibitions against satsangis discussing Santmat & RS on the internet? I am just wondering how it is that you reconcile doing that?

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Tao,

Eversince I have started visiting this blog, this is first beautiful response from your end.

As far as " disgrunted" is concerned , all I mean is discontended. If it is being viewed in any other sense, I am sorry.

I have used the word "similar experiences" and not "same experieces". It can not be "dissimilar experiences". Whatever be the experiences, one has been compelled by him/herself to seek initiation. In any case, I have no objection if you wish to mince the words, the way you have done it above. It is the spirt behind the communication and not the words alone.

I am not capable to discuss santmat, in writing, orally or on internet. I am only to follow the Master on the lines which I had received at the time of initiation. I have never discussed on any topic but I have ever cast my opinion. You have pointed out on many occasions that I do not continue with the thread on any topic.

There is no such instruction for an initiate. It could be for preachers or western followers.

THE ONLY INSTRUCTION OF THE MASTER IS BHAJAN, MORE BHAJAN AND STILL MORE BHAJAN.

with due regards,

[tAo]

Rakesh,

"this is first beautiful response from your end."

-- Well then you must have missed quite alot. But thanks nevertheless.

"As far as " disgrunted" is concerned , all I mean is discontended." -- Do mean to say 'discontented'? I would not agree with that either. I know that myself and some others did not leave RS merely because they were discontented. They simply chose to get into other things.

"It can not be "dissimilar experiences"."

-- Why not?

"Whatever be the experiences, one has been compelled by him/herself to seek initiation."

-- Yes, that seems true.

"In any case, I have no objection if you wish to mince the words, the way you have done it above."

-- Rakesh, I was not "mincing words". I was simply trying to find out, to ask you, what you meant, why you assumed certain things.... and to offer some alternate possibilities.

"It is the spirt behind the communication and not the words alone."

-- That may be true, but I can only go on the words.

"to discuss santmat, in writing, orally or on internet. [...] There is no such instruction for an initiate. It could be for preachers or western followers."

-- You are absolutely WRONG Rakesh. The RS internet prohibtion was formally published to all satsangis back in the latter 1990s by the current master and RSSB/Dera. t is available.

[Brian]

rakesh, if you think the only instruction of the master is meditation, try this out:

Go to one of his satsangs. Bring a tape recorder. And a video camera. Wear both around your neck. When you see the master, whether in the satsang hall or outside, start taking photographs and recording him.

Then post your videos and recordings on You Tube and elsewhere on the Internet. I'm curious to learn how this goes for you. I assume you'll have no trouble, since the only instruction of the master is meditation, so everything else is permitted.

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Brian,

It appears that you have responded out of irritation which is neither expected from you and rarely seen from your end.

This is what most of the foreign visitors to Dera and Delhi center used to do when I was a ten years old child during Master Charan Singh's time. Even Indians who could afford a tape recorder also used to keep it near the mike for recording.

It is for the organization as to what is to be permitted or not. You know it pretty well it is not allowed these days. It is not allowed in many public gatherings in India.

On many occasions I have indicated that I have nothing to do with RSSB as an organization. It is the Master alone who is of my concern.

I assure you that my comments on your blog will never be indecent that you would need to delete them.

IN ANY CASE, IF YOU WISH THAT I SHOULD NOT COMMENT ON YOUR BLOG. I CAN DO IT WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT.

With kindest regards,

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Tao,

I once again thank you for correcting me at places.

I shall love to have that publication of 1990 which disallows the initiates to use internet. The actual content that instruction. Was it a word of mouth of some sewadar.

with regards,

[Brian]

Rakesh, I never said anything about not wanting you to comment any more. I simply was correcting an error in what you said.

Yes, I was at the Dera in 1977 and took lots of photos of Charan Singh. There was no restriction on making audio recordings or taking photographs in Charan Singh's era.

Now, there is. I used to do security seva at gatherings attended by the current master, Gurinder Singh. I can tell you for a fact that he was adamant about not wanting photos taken of him, even in a public place.

I was present when a person took a photo from quite a distance of Gurinder Singh. The master noticed it and waved a finger, "no, no." Security staff came up to the guy and demanded his film, which in retrospect was blatantly illegal, because it's OK to take photographs of people in a public place so long as you aren't really intrusive.

Here's some rules for the Fayetteville venue. Like I said, no cameras, audio devices, etc. You're not even supposed to take notes of what is said at talks, nor to communicate the content of talks over the Internet.
http://www.fayettevilletour2009.org/satsang.php

Regarding the edict not to discuss Sant Mat over the Internet, that came out around 1990, I believe. You can search the Yahoo forum for info on that. Here's a recent discussion where that edict is mentioned:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radhasoamistudies/message/166692

I was a satsang secretary at the time and remember getting notice of this policy, which came from the Dera, I'm quite sure.

[tAo]

Rakesh,

Here is the official RSSB internet prohibition, which was formally published as a notice to all satsangis in the 1996 RSSB Newsletters. Also included below that are some links to where you can access the file which is located in the File section of the Yahoo Group radhasoamistudies :

The following are excerpts from the RSSB-A USA Newsletter -- Radha Soami
Society Beas-America. All text below, except for the month and year in
brackets, is verbatim and complete:

------------------------------------------

[MARCH 1996]

Use of E-Mail and other electronic media for Sant Mat purposes

The following statement was recently received from the Dera:

"Satsangis should not use E-mail or other media such as Internet to conduct satsangs, formal or informal, or to communicate or distribute Sant Mat teachings, Sant Mat addresses and initiation data, or other similar material of confidential nature. In addition, Web-Sites and homepages should not be used for any purpose at all connected with Sant Mat."

Possible exceptions to the policy may be made for projects under the direct supervision of the RSSB-A Board.

[MAY 1996]

Use of Electronic Media for Sant Mat Communications

As a follow-up to the statement in the March issue of SCNI regarding the use of E-Mail and the Internet for Sant Mat communications, we have recently received the following letter [from RSSB Dera]:

"With access to electronic media such as the Internet and the Web Site now being available to many in this age of communication, it is found that they are being used increasingly for the exchange of information between satsangis and other groups concerning Radha Soami Satsang Beas and the spiritual teachings of Sant Mat. This information may be factually correct; however, there may be inaccuracies in either of fact or interpretation. Sometimes we are portrayed positively, sometimes negatively.

Naturally, satsangis can get perturbed at seeing us presented in an inaccurate manner or interpreted in an incorrect way. It is emphasized, however, that our path is one of pure spirituality, and concerns an individual personally. It is a path where we try to avoid controversies. We do not want to react to others, criticize others, nor to create any kind of disharmony or unpleasantness with anyone by pursuing the matter unnecessarily.

Therefore, it would be better to ignore whatever may appear on the electronic media concerning ourselves. We need not bother or worry ourselves about how other portray us or see us, even if they view us in an unfavourable light.

Satsangis are advised not to use E-mail, or other media such as Internet to conduct satsangs, formal or informal, or to communicate or distribute Sant Mat teachings, Sant Mat literature, Sant Mat related photographs, satsangi names, addresses and initiation data, or other similar material of confidential nature. In addition, Web-Sites & Home Pages should not be used for any purpose at all connected with Sant Mat."

-------------------------------------------

Links:

The RSSB Internet Ban document/file:

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wJ50SnFGf66n425yR45VnHwdyTRpXChDIGoGhMos8kSwpbLCfanUO-lIJaVEj0Gp1SdjfGKsAHr_K1VvB12VzkwLBX38BWXn/RSSB%20Internet%20Ban

The radhasoamistudies Yahoo Group home page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radhasoamistudies/

The radhasoamistudies Yahoo Group file section index (you must already be a radhasoamistudies group member to access this page):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radhasoamistudies/files/

[tucsoN]

This extract from the above (thanks tAo for finding it) sums it up clearly:

"Therefore, it would be better to ignore whatever may appear on the electronic media concerning ourselves. We need not bother or worry ourselves about how other[s] portray us or see us, even if they view us in an unfavourable light... Web-Sites & Home Pages should not be used for any purpose at all connected with Sant Mat."

--So there you have it. It should be noted that since that edict in 1996 even RSSB eventually submitted to the electronic age of Aquarius and now maintains a website for a basic introduction to the teachings and contact information. However, I am sure the above prohibition still stands regarding the implied involvement with blogs, internet debate and controversy.

The current master, Gurinder Singh, would say to satisfy your intellect by thoroughly exploring these places BEFORE initiation, but once initiated one should stay out of the fray. The time would be better spent in meditation, service, essential duties and leave the affairs of the world to Kal, the negative power.

Oooh...the negative power!!!

(Not that there isn't a little truth in all this. I mean there is no end to controversy and spiritual debate which will never get to the Heart of the Matter.)

[tAo]

One additional comment to Rakesh:

Rakesh, earlier you had doubted and disputed the RSSB's official internet prohibition.

Then you asked me to provide the proof of that (which I have done). You asked:

"I shall love to have that publication of 1990 which disallows the initiates to use internet. The actual content that instruction."

Then you went on to say:

"Was it a word of mouth of some sewadar[?]"

-- Well as you can clearly see, it was NOT just some mere "word of mouth of some sewadar". It was the official notice/instruction/order specifically isued from the RSSB Dera, which was the direct request and will of the current RS master.

Rakesh, you then said to Brian:

"I have indicated that I have nothing to do with RSSB as an organization. It is the Master alone who is of my concern."

-- Well then Rakesh, if your sole concern is for "the Master alone", why then do you totally ignore and disregard and continue to violate the very same "Master", when it comes to the Master's expressed will and instructions which have clearly prohibited satsangis (like yourself) from any sort of discussing or communicating or preaching Sant Mat and RS on the internet (such as va e-mail, websites, discussion groups, blogs, and so on)??

In this, you seem to be a hypocrite with a double standard. You say on the one hand that your only concern is for "the Master alone", but yet you contradict that by ignoring and refusing to follow the same Master's official published edict/instruction to all RS satsangis like yourself.

It seems that you want to pick and choose whatever you wish to do or not do when it comes to the RS master and his wishes and his official instructions. This shows that you are not the loyal satsangi that you pretend and portray yourself as being.

You have continued to engage in discussions and posting about issues related to Sant Mat and RS here on the internet, and even in spite of having been duly informed of the RSSB's official internet ban/prohibtion for quite some time now.

You have deliberately chosen to ignore and even to violate the current RS master's specific wishes in regard to this matter.

So when you now come and say that your concern is for "the Master alone"... well it simply doesn't ring true.

I think you really need to examine your beliefs, and how it is that you can think that you are concerned only with the Master alone, when in fact you actually deliberately violate his official instructions.

Its pretty obvious to me that you do not respect the masters will. In other words, what you SAY, is not the same as what you DO.

I think you ought to really decide what it is that you are going to follow... either your own will, or the guru's will. Until then, you are just a hypcrite. I will respect whichever choice you decide to make, but I don't respect hypocrisy.

[tucsoN]

But tAo, if Rakesh didn't know about these instructions and prohibitions from RSSB how could he act upon them?

Let's hear what he has to say.

Rakesh?

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Brian,

Most of the references that have been given on your blog come from some unofficial group or the other.

I am pretty much aware of almost all the things.

ALL THESE INSTRUCTIONS ARE FROM ORGANIZATION.

IN INDIA WHATEVER MASTER HAS TO SAY HE HIMSELF SAYS AFTER THE SATSANG.

It is publicity which he avoids for himself.

That is how I see it. Master has nothing to do with these petty things.

I repeat his only instruction is BHAJAN, MORE BHAJAN AND STILL MORE BHAJAN.

with due regards,

[Brian]

Rakesh, the "unofficial group" you refer to is Radha Soami Satsang Beas - America, which is directly linked to Radha Soami Satsang Beas India.

The information shared by tAo was from a RSSB-A newsletter that communicated directives received from the Dera in India. Gurinder Singh is the leader of the Dera, so one has to assume that he approved the directives.

I respect your personal view of what Sant Mat is all about. But you have it wrong when you claim that somehow the RSSB organization is separate and distinct from the guru, Gurinder Singh. I can tell you from personal experience that little, if anything, significant happens within RSSB that isn't approved by the guru.

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Brian,

At first, I have not referred to all but most of the links. Tao has given reference of some communications by RSSB.

My own brother is chief secretary of all the centres of Delhi/ NCR centers. I shall check up the exact circular and what it implies.

I do think that the purpose of the circular
could as you are interpreting. I could be in response to a certain enquary.

By the way, "I remember once in 1975 I am ver much a part of the congregation who were in queue for darshans. Master Charan Singh slapped a person who was trying to touch his feet.

And next moment, the Master was sitting in such a way as if nothing has happened."

I am an eye witness.

I don't know ho to interpret it .

I shall resume to write....

with regards

[walker]

Rakesh, in principle, the pure teachings are entirely different from the actions of the physical organization, but one of the guidelines given to us to help us recognize a Perfect Master is that of his actions and the way he lives his life. This merges the pure spiritual teachings with the physical organization via the actions of the Guru. Inappropriate Guru actions are explained by statement that normal person cannot understand depth of Gurus actions! Neat ha?

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Brian,

I repeat that I am not capable to discuss Santmat, in writing, orally or on internet. More so, I do not want to drag myself in the controversy whether or not I am permitted to use internet for the purpose I am doing it.

All I know is that in Santmat, it is always emphasized what is to be done. And whatever is told to not to be done is with an intention that what is to be done may be followed with more concentration.
I am least bothered what people brand me. This is what I am.

By the way, Walker thanks for your words.

With regards,

[tAo]

Rakesh,

The following responses from you are incorrect. You are also evading and denying the established facts.

The RSSB organization and the master/guru/leader of the RSSB are not separate nor at odds. The RSSB internet ban directive was authorized and issued by Gurinder Singh. The RSSB and the RSSB-A are not "unofficial group(s)". The RSSB-A is the RSSB of America, and is soley under the authority and direction of RSSB Dera at Beas and therfore under the authority and direction of Gurinder Singh.

There is absolutely nothing "unofficial" about the RSSB internet ban/prohibition that was published in the official RSSB-A newsletters.

So here are your statements which are obviously incorrect:

"Most of the references that have been given on your blog come from some unofficial group or the other."

-- The RSSB-A is not an "unofficial" group. It is the RSSB, and as such, is completely under the direct authority of Gurinder Singh.

"I am pretty much aware of almost all the things."

-- No you were not. Because you had previously doubted the RSSB's internert ptohibition.

"ALL THESE INSTRUCTIONS ARE FROM ORGANIZATION."

-- Yes, the instructions were from the RSSB organization, which is under the direction and authority of the present RSSB master Gurinder Singh. So they were his instructions.

"IN INDIA WHATEVER MASTER HAS TO SAY HE HIMSELF SAYS AFTER THE SATSANG."

-- Nonsense. That is not only all that he does. He issues many official directives at other times and in other situations.

"It is publicity which he avoids for himself."

-- You are evading the point. This has nothing to do with his avoiding personal publicity. This was an official directive to all initiated satsangis.

'Master has nothing to do with these petty things."

-- This was not any such "petty things". This was the master's official will and directive to all satsangis. You are clearly in denial and deliberately ignoring the facts and the will of the RS master.

"I repeat his only instruction is BHAJAN, MORE BHAJAN AND STILL MORE BHAJAN."

-- NO. That is NOT his only instruction. You are obviously refusing to acknowledge or respect his wishes. That tells me that you are out of touch with reality. You are deliberately denying and ignoring the masters instructions.

"My own brother is chief secretary of all the centres of Delhi/ NCR centers. I shall check up the exact circular and what it implies."

-- Your brother is not above the RSSB. The RSSB itself issued the internet ban directive in 1996. And to date, it has not been rescinded. Your brother is not going to change that directive. It's also apparent that you are refusing to acknowledge this. So I am not going to waste any more time on some foolish denier like yourself who refuses to acknowledge the authority of the RSSB and the RSSB master in this matter.

"I do think that the purpose of the circular
could as you are interpreting. I could be in response to a certain enquary."

-- What? What are you trying to say? I think you don't understand the over-all point here. I think that you don't understand that this internet ban or prohibition directive, was issued by the RSSB itself under the direct authority and will of the master.

I think you have a problem... which is that you are in deep denial. You refuse to admit the truth, even when presented with the obvos facts and the proof. You refuse to believe the published instructions and will of the RSSB leader and spiritual master.

Enough of your foolishness and nonsense already.

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Tao,

Thanks for your exhaustive reply.Your habit of picking sentences of your choice and lambasting the other person is really commendable.

In any case, I always pick up a few words of my choice from your comments and they become my treasure.

I am sorry that I do thank you very often for it.

with due regards,

[rakesh bhasin]

correction to above:

I am sorry that I do not thank you very often for it.

[tucsoN]

I hope that Rakesh understands that he is free to continue to comment on this blog regardless of what RSSB says. I don't think anyone here is telling him not to participate. It is RSSB that is telling him this. If he wishes to obey the master then he will have to quit discussing Sant Mat on internet debate forums like this one and also continue to avoid even minute fractions of eggs in baked goods.

[tAo]

Yes, tucsoN is right. I am glad that tucsoN mentioned this. Rakesh should not assume that I or anyone else here is telling him not to participate here. I am only saying that it is the RSSB which is telling satsangis not to discuss anything related to Santmat via internet. Rakesh is free to either do as the RSSB says or not, imo. It is entirely up to Rakesh to do as he pleases. He can choose to follow the wishes of the RSSB, or he can ignore it. I support Rakesh's freedom to do whatever he wants, just as long as he is aware and cognizant that the RSSB and the RSSB master have in fact requested and instructed satsangis to refrain from discussing anything related to Santmat or RS on the internet. But I am not telling Rakesh that he must do that. It is still up to Rakesh as to whether or not he wishes to follow the directives of the RSSB.

[rakesh bhasin]

I have sent an email to Brian on his another id. Till I receive his reply I would, henceforth continue to read on this bolg and would never cast my comments.

It is not that I am convinced that the Master prohibits using internet for the purpose that I am doing it. But this seems to be the message of the bloggers here.

with regards to one and all.

[Brian]

Rakesh, I'm not sure what you're wanting from me. This is a church of the churchless blog. You're free to comment here, or not, as you see fit. If you're wondering, or worrying, whether your "church" allows discussions on the Internet, you might consider whether you truly are a churchless sort of person.

[tAo]

No, you are again mistaken Rakesh.

It is not "the message of the bloggers here". It is entirely the "message" of the RSSB. It is the RSSB and the RSSB Master who have attempted to prohibit satsangis from discussing Sant Mat publicly on the internet.

You asked for evidence of that, and ample clear and legitimate evidence was given to you. Yet now you ignore that clear evidence, and you continue to doubt and deny the obvious facts. This shows that you are not an honest and reasonable person.

So I don't care what the hell you do at this point. I can see that you are simply not receptive to the facts, to the truth of the matter. You are playing a game of deliberate denial.

Guys like you are a waste of time, and should just be ignored. And take your narrow-minded BS somewhere else.

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Brian,

Your following link is the only authentic one which discourages the satsangies to take down notes of the proceedings of the satsang and to transmit them in any form including internet.

You know it pretty well its purpose. Most of the satsangies tend to preach others ( in order to encourage themselves they encourage others). I interpret it this way.

With this final word from my end, I would continue to comment as a usual blogger as ever before.

http://www.fayettevilletour2009.org/satsang.php

with due regards,

[Brian]

Rakesh, if you want to risk hell fire and the wrath of the Guru for defying his edict that Radha Soami Satsang Beas initiates not discuss Sant Mat teachings over the Internet, feel free. I sure do.

Congratulations on becoming churchless. You should celebrate with a glass of wine (or two). And a hamburger, if you feel like one.

[rakesh bhasin]

Thanx

[tAo]

Rakesh,

You appear to imply that the official RSSB internet prohibition is somehow not really "authentic". That is absolutely incorrect.

You asked for proof. But even when the proof is provided, you continue to deny the RSSB's internet policy and their official directive as it was formally published and distributed to all RS satsangis throughout the USA in the official RSSB Newsletters.

As I had posted previously, here below is a copy of the RSSB internet prohibition directive, which was published as an official notice to all RS satsangis, contained in the 1996 RSSB-A Newsletters.

The following official notices were issued directly by the Dera, and they are copied verbatim from the Radha Soami Society Beas-America (RSSB-A) Newsletters that were issued in March and May of 1996. All initiated RS satsangis who were on the RSSB-A mailing list received the following official notices issued by the RSSB Dera:

[MARCH 1996]

Use of E-Mail and other electronic media for Sant Mat purposes

The following statement was recently received from the Dera:

"Satsangis should not use E-mail or other media such as Internet to conduct satsangs, formal or informal, or to communicate or distribute Sant Mat teachings, Sant Mat addresses and initiation data, or other similar material of confidential nature. In addition, Web-Sites and homepages should not be used for any purpose at all connected with Sant Mat."

Possible exceptions to the policy may be made for projects under the direct supervision of the RSSB-A Board.

[MAY 1996]

Use of Electronic Media for Sant Mat Communications

As a follow-up to the statement in the March issue regarding the use of E-Mail and the Internet for Sant Mat communications, we have recently received the [additional] following letter [from RSSB Dera]:

"With access to electronic media such as the Internet and the Web Site now being available to many in this age of communication, it is found that they are being used increasingly for the exchange of information between satsangis and other groups concerning Radha Soami Satsang Beas and the spiritual teachings of Sant Mat. This information may be factually correct; however, there may be inaccuracies in either of fact or interpretation. Sometimes we are portrayed positively, sometimes negatively.

Naturally, satsangis can get perturbed at seeing us presented in an inaccurate manner or interpreted in an incorrect way. It is emphasized, however, that our path is one of pure spirituality, and concerns an individual personally. It is a path where we try to avoid controversies. We do not want to react to others, criticize others, nor to create any kind of disharmony or unpleasantness with anyone by pursuing the matter unnecessarily.

Therefore, it would be better to ignore whatever may appear on the electronic media concerning ourselves. We need not bother or worry ourselves about how other portray us or see us, even if they view us in an unfavourable light.

Satsangis are advised not to use E-mail, or other media such as Internet to conduct satsangs, formal or informal, or to communicate or distribute Sant Mat teachings, Sant Mat literature, Sant Mat related photographs, satsangi names, addresses and initiation data, or other similar material of confidential nature. In addition, Web-Sites & Home Pages should not be used for any purpose at all connected with Sant Mat."

[rakesh bhasin]

Tao,

YOU SAID," Satsangis are advised not to use E-mail, or other media such as Internet to conduct satsangs, formal or informal, or to communicate or distribute Sant Mat teachings, Sant Mat literature, Sant Mat related photographs, satsangi names, addresses and initiation data, or other similar material of confidential nature. In addition, Web-Sites & Home Pages should not be used for any purpose at all connected with Sant Mat."

BUT WHO IS A SATSANGI?

[Brian]

rakesh, aren't you aware that a "satsangi" is someone who has been initiated by a Radha Soami Satsang Beas guru?

[Roger]

rakesh,

Just stop talking about Sant Mat. Absolutely stop. Then you will be safe.

[tAo]

Rakesh,

Brian has answered your question. But it still sounds like you are trying to skirt around the issue.

I would also like to add that I am not the one who originally said that quote which you referred to above. It was the RSSB itself who issued that official statement and directive which was then published and distributed (via the RSSB newsletters) to initiated RS satsangis. I have already made this quite clear to you several times. So why are you still avoiding the facts?

Either follow the RSSB's instructions and cease all discussing of anything pertaining to Sant Mat on the internet, or don't. Its up to you. But don't keep on trying to deny the already established fact of the RSSB's internet prohibition directives.

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Brian,

You are absolutely wrong. Try to get the right definition.

If this is your knowledge, kindly ask the right person.

with kind regards,

[Brian]

Rakesh, instead of playing word games, tell me the correct definition of satsangi. If you can't, then I guess I'm right and you're wrong. Ball is in your definition court.

Of course, I'm referring to the definition of "satsangi" as the word is used in official announcements of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. Naturally the word has different meanings in different contexts, since it literally means "association with truth," I believe.

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Brian,

It is being announced now and then by the Master that let us not divide the people as satsangi and non-satsangi.

A satsangi is one who is in constant touch with truth, i.e. Shabad.

AND I AM NOT.

A mere initiate is not a satsangi.

I am not looking forward to an excuse to participate in your blog.

Good bye to one and all.

with kind regards,

[tAo]

Rakesh,

You said:

"A satsangi is one who is in constant touch with truth, i.e. Shabad." -and- "A mere initiate is not a satsangi."

-- Unfortunately, that is not how the RSSB and most initiates define the term "satsangi". The well known and well used definition or meaning of the term "satsangi", as it is commonly used by both the RSSB and all initiates, is simply 'a person who has been formally initiated into Sant Mat', and in this case specifically into the Radha Soami Satsang Beas branch of Sant Mat.

Although your definition may be true to the spiritual meaning of the term, the common usage is simply that of an individual who has been initiated, as opposed to an not yet initiated 'seeker'. The term "satsangi" refers to one who has been formally initiated.

So why do you keep on trying to twist this simple fact to suit your own interpretation and agenda? You are obviously playing word games.

There is no question as to what the term "satsangi" means and implies in its common usage. And any RSSB initiate will tell you the same thing. So cut the bullshit Rakesh.

[Roger]

"A satsangi is one who is in constant touch with truth, i.e. Shabad."

---Never been apart of Sant Mat, so, this statement is new to me. From my limited background, I am in tune with the "common" usage. An inititate, who attends a satsang.
Nothing more, and nothing special.

With that said, this "satsangi" who is in "constant" touch with truth, is an interesting subject. I wonder, in the history of Sant Mat, who created this type of satsangi? This would be a very special and unique satsangi. True, I would need to make some assumptions, regarding what the truth is. As usual, this is very interesting and No Big Deal.

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Roger,

Sat= truth = Shabad (word)
sangi= in company of

A satsangi is an initiate but all initiates are not satsangi. A satsangi in human garb is rare.

with regards,

[Roger]

rakesh,

The satsangi definition is Ok, however, what is the name for the common initiate, that shows up for a sant mat meeting?

[Brian]

rakesh, you enjoy playing with words. Reality, however, is different from word play. If you really believe that the Radha Soami Satsang Beas guru and organization don't mean "initiates" when they say "satsangis," then every directive sent out by RSSB is meaningless, since it would only apply to those who are in constant touch with shabd -- your definition of "satsangi."

Thus, by this reasoning, the only initiates who are not supposed to use the Internet to discuss Sant Mat are those who are in constant touch with the shabd (or "spirit of God," basically). Huh? Does this make sense? The initiates who are essentially god-realized need to comply with rules, with the initiates who are still struggling along can do whatever they like?

You seem to want to live in a RSSB world of your own making, not in the real RSSB world. That's fine -- fantasy is fun -- just so long as you realize what you're doing, and that other people don't have to take you seriously.

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Brian,

Initiates does not mean initiates of RSSB alone.

Teachings of saints are not to scare you but to make you bold.

Teachings of saints are not to generate fear in you but love.

The real teachings of a Master whosoever he is, is not to isolate you from the society but let you be a part of you.

I am not fond of writing this which looks like a sermon but I am being scared as if heavens are going to fall if I am using internet.

My faith in Master is not fragile enough that it will be shaken in case I read a few words against him on your blog or elsewhere.

I am not commenting on your blog alone.

with regards,

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Roger,

An initiate or non-initiate (referred to as satsangi by organizers of the group) who comes up in the discourse/ meeting is a part of sangat (congregation)in RSSB or any gurudwara of sikhs.

with regards,

[tucsoN]

Rakesh,

You can spin it any way you like, but the fact is that the Sat Guru has advised that satsangis (devotees of the Sat Guru) avoid internet websites and internet discussion about Sant Mat teachings and the RSSB organization. Period. End of story.

That said, you are welcome to continue to comment here as far as most of us are concerned. No one HERE is telling you not to participate. Your decision.

[Roger]

rakesh,

Your satsangi description, is it similar to a "rigpa" essential nature of mind?

"Profound and tranquil, free from complexity, Uncompounded luminous clarity,
Beyond the mind of conceptual ideas;
In this, there is not a thing to be removed, Nor anything that needs to be added. It is the nature of immaculate primordial awareness."

---I'm still interested in how Sant Mat created the meaning of satsangi, based on your description. Thanks for any follow up explanation. No big deal, if you desire, not to.
Roger

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Roger,

Thanks for you interest, you may better mail me at
rakesh1958ATgmail.com

with regards,

[Roger]

rakesh,

Respond here, if you desire.

Thanks,
Roger

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Roger,

I shall greatly appreciate if you help me to not to discuss RSSB and Sant Mat here.

Regarding my concepts, I have taken about 40 years to crystallize them. These are not borrowed ones. You are most welcome to proceed as stated above.

with regards,

[Roger]

rakesh,

Is the satsangi definition, you related, confined strictly to RSSB and Sant Mat? This satsangi could be someone from another group(s). This other group, technically, could give you support in discussing the history, origin and further specifics, regarding your satsangi definition.

You should have no problems, with such.

Thanks,
Roger

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear Roger,

You are absolutely correct. This satsangi may be anyone and from anywhere. But as per rule of the land, a master-pupil relation has to exist. Kindly do not pester me to discuss it here.

I am sorry to say that " if you begin with a kiss, you do not know where you will land up".

That is all I can say.

with kindest regards,

[Roger]

regulars,

Does anyone have any further info on this satsangi definition, as discussed in the last few comments?

Thanks,
Roger

[Blogger Brian]

Roger, if you look at the Wikipedia "satsangi" article you'll see that it refers exclusively to the followers of some Hindu sect. Which, of course, isn't true, because lots of groups call their devotees "satsangis."

The issue here, to my understanding, is how the word is used by a particular group. When Radha Soami Satsang Beas issues an edict that says "Satsangis should..." they obviously aren't referring to members of every group that calls its devotees "satsangis." It's referring to RSSB initiates, or devotees.

Similarly, the NRA could send out a letter saying, "Members, we need to..." They aren't talking about members of PETA, or AARP, they're referring to NRA members. Context is all important in communications.

[Roger]

"A satsangi is one who is in constant touch with truth, i.e. Shabad."

---This description, is of interest, this "in constant touch" with the truth. What is this type of satsangi doing? More details, if there really is?

[tucsoN]

"Satsang" literally means 'association with truth'. This term is used by RSSB and other groups as a name for gatherings and meetings where the teachings are discussed, etc. Content and practices at these meetings vary from group to group, i.e. some groups may meditate during satsangs while others do not and only have discourses.

The literal meaning of 'satsangi' would be one who associates with or is in touch with truth. This could refer to their actual state of awareness [although this may be impossible to ascertain] or it may simply mean that they follow true teachings or a guru who's teachings are [supposedly] true. The latter definition applies to initiates or devotees of RSSB.

These are merely definitions and semantics. What exactly the satsangi "who is in constant touch with truth" is doing is entirely in the imagination of the person who wants to know even if they are told by the satsangi "what they are doing".

[Roger]

Good answer Tucson. Liked the last paragraph of your comment. The "constant" word made the definition kinda interesting. I may ask a question, and not need to know, even if someone is giving an answer.

Thanks,
Roger

[zirbata]

sat = truth
sang = association

that is the sum total of the meaning satsangi.

Anyone else denoting any other definition to the term could be misleading.

once when asked who is a satsangi, a RS guru replied he only knew one and a half satsangis, the only satsangi he knew was his master, and he himself he regarded as only half a satsangi, for anyone else to call themselves satsangis or associates of truth, could characteristically be termed inconclusive, unless you wish to go along with the semantics surrounding the notion of who a satsangi is and who is not, then one could go ahead and say that Brian and tucson are satsangis too.

[Roger]

association, and "in constant touch" are equal?

[Catherine]

Half a satsangi, or half truth is a lie. So the R.S. guru was a liar, if you believe what he says. Most satsangis like the sound of what the gurus say and accept all the half truths, not thinking too much; basking instead in the comfort zone of what they have taught themselves is his radiant light. Truthfully though, we should substitute 'light' for 'spin'.

[tAo]

zirbata, you are right in one sense, but you are also wrong in another.

Yes, the literal meaning of "satsangi" (sat-sang-i) is basically as you have stated.

However, the RSSB (as well as all of the RSSB followers and initiates) use the term "satsangi" to refer specifically and only those people who have been formally initiated into Santmat shabda yoga by one of the RSSB masters. This is the commonly accepted meaning of "satsangi" as it is used by the RSSB, and also which is known and used by the author of this blog, and also by other RS initiates who post comments here. Other folks who are not formal RSSB initiates may have and employ other definitions of the term "satsangi", and those definitions are not necessarily incorrect, but those definitions are not what are being referred to in here discussions that relate to the RSSB and its initiates.