Tai Chi vs. Shabd Yoga -- I name a winner

I love questions. Especially those I can answer. Here's one that Todd Chambers asked me a few days ago via a comment on a post about giving up Buddhism and Zen.

So Brian, on the subject of Tai Chi, I wanted to ask you if you could say which practice has seemed more rewarding for you: Shabda Yoga or Tai Chi? Or do you have a preference?

Interesting question.

I diligently practiced the Radha Soami Satsang Beas version of Surat Shabd Yoga (a.k.a. Sant Mat) for over thirty years, including a whole lot of daily meditation. And for about five years I've been studying Tai Chi fairly intensely, usually attending classes for five hours a week and doing the forms on my own at other times.

Now, comparing Tai Chi and Shabd Yoga might seem like an "apples and oranges" sort of thing, because they are so different.

But Todd asked which has been more rewarding for me, which doesn't require a point by point comparison. Plus, most people would say they are both "spiritual practices" -- though I really don't understand what spiritual means and wish we could do away with the notion of spirituality.

I've gained a lot from both Tai Chi and Shabd Yoga. However, here's why I consider Tai Chi and Taoism (Tai Chi is an expression of Taoism) to be much better suited for me now.

I love the naturalness of Tai Chi.

There is nothing, or at least very little, forced about it. You don't try to be anything other than what you are, doing what you can do. Performing a form (a set of movements) is called "playing."

My instructor, Warren, likes to tell a story about a bunch of senior (meaning, old) Chinese Tai Chi adepts who got together and said, "Let's each play a form." They did. And every playing looked way different from the others.

Each practitioner had his own style, his own way of melding Tai Chi with himself -- his personality, energy, physical body, attitude, and such. When they all had shown their stuff, laughter erupted with hearty expressions of "Everyone looked so good."

And so different.

In Shabd Yoga, or Sant Mat, the goal is sameness. Every disciple of a Shabd Yoga guru tries to emulate the master, aiming to merge his or her self with the oft-heard "will of the Satguru." The result is a straining to act just right. Shabd Yoga disciples are perpetually worried about doing something wrong.

In Radha Soami Satsang Beas this could be eating a speck of meat, sipping some wine, consuming pastries with egg in them, having sex outside of marriage, or not meditating for several hours a day.

In Tai Chi and Taoism, the variety I've been exposed to, there are no rigid rules. Laughter and a smile is the response to a seeming stumble, whether of the physical or psychological variety. I like that. It feels so right to not worry about being wrong.

We are human beings living in the physical world. That's where Tai Chi and Taoism start. And, in a sense, end.

Meaning, there isn't the other-worldly emphasis that dominates Shabd Yoga and Sant Mat -- which are aimed at releasing the soul from the confines of mind and body. In Tai Chi mind and body smoothly combine in flowing movement, as well as stillness.

The frequently-stated Tai Chi goal is to listen.

To yourself. To an opponent. To the cosmos. You aren't trying to dominate, control, force, overturn, fix. You listen, and from the listening comes appropriate action.

Which will be different for every time, for every person, for every situation. My instructor is fond of relating how a Tai Chi master was asked what the application, or martial purpose, was for a particular Tai Chi movement.

The master laughed and said, "Who can say? Whatever is happening determines what needs to be done." In other words, if you are attacked or find yourself in a confrontation, there are no rules except listen and respond appropriately.

This makes Tai Chi and Taoism wonderfully flexible and non-dogmatic.

So I've found that by no longer trying to be spiritual, I'm closer to being whatever the hell that word means, or doesn't mean.

Example: when I practiced Shabd Yoga/Sant Mat, I worked hard at being humble. Every serious disciple I know did also. If someone thanked you for your volunteer work, you were expected to say something like, "Oh, it is all the grace of the guru. I'm nothing, just a tool in His hands."

Then you'd feel ever so special for being so marvelously humble. After a while (several decades, because I can be a slow learner), it dawned on me that feeling special isn't an especially laudatory quality.

It certainly was at odds with the egolessness that Shabd Yoga held up as the goal of spiritual practice.

I came to realize that the Sant Mat dogma of initiates being especially chosen by God and the Guru to return to "heaven" (Sach Khand), while other poor souls (like my wife) were doomed to endless reincarnations on this crappy physical Earth, wasn't helping me on the humility or ego-loss front.

Now, I love not feeling special. I'm just a run of the mill Tai Chi student, and run of the mill human being, who is doing his best to live life halfway wisely, responsibly, and enjoyably.

I no longer feel that I'm part of a chosen group who are privy to knowing, or on their way to knowing, secrets of the cosmos that are hidden from others by a divine design. I used to talk a lot about being one with my fellow human beings and the universe at large.

Now, I don't talk much about that stuff. But I feel the oneness much more than in my Shabd Yoga days, because I've stopped setting myself apart as a member of a special group.

Hope this answers your question, Todd. Halfway, at least. That's good enough for me these days.

(Here's ten reasons for guys to like Tai Chi, using "guys" in the inclusive modern sense.)

Comments

[Jeremy]

So accurate Brian. Thanks for hsaring and showing up the futility of being a Sant Mat disciple

[Aman]

Hello Sir

I liked this post of yours somehow it showed me how natural santmat is for me. Ofcourse you follow Taoism & I love santmat but the same experience which you described with these lines

"Now, I love not feeling special. I'm just a run of the mill Tai Chi student, and run of the mill human being, who is doing his best to live life halfway wisely, responsibly, and enjoyably."

is what I feel as a santmat practitioner. I really don't understand why some satsangis follow rules as the ten commandment,(not that I don't keep my four promises) but because frankly what I've experienced is as you meditate more & more you automatically do the right things without someone telling you what is needed. I just think its all about the individual soul, some may get it through taoism & some from santmat. Anyways nice post.

[Jen]

Very sweet message Aman

[Roger]

"..............but because frankly what I've experienced is as you meditate more & more you automatically do the right things without someone telling you what is needed."

---Nothing wrong with meditation, however, how does the repeated or moreness of meditation automatically make one do the right things?
---On the other hand,I can see how doing the right thing, could be done without being "told to" by others.

Thanks for a clarification,
Roger

[Jen]

Just a few thoughts on the two different approaches mentioned in Brian’s description of Tai Chi vs Shabd Yoga…

His description of the way we tend to follow Sant Mat is very true as in: “In Shabd Yoga, or Sant Mat, the goal is sameness. Every disciple of a Shabd Yoga guru tries to emulate the master, aiming to merge his or her self with the oft-heard "will of the Satguru. The result is a straining to act just right. Shabd Yoga disciples are perpetually worried about doing something wrong.”

He is correct when he says there is an: “other-worldly emphasis that dominates Shabd Yoga and Sant Mat”.

Brian says: “I love the naturalness of Tai Chi”, also: “There is nothing, or at least very little, forced about it. You don't try to be anything other than what you are, doing what you can do”.

Also: “The frequently-stated Tai Chi goal is to listen. To yourself. To an opponent. To the cosmos. You aren't trying to dominate, control, force, overturn, fix. You listen, and from the listening comes appropriate action”.

Roger,

Your question: “... how does the repeated or moreness of meditation automatically make one do the right things?”

Aman seems to follow a more natural way of being a Sant Mat practitioner.

For some meditation works, for others being more “flowing” as in Tai Chi helps and maybe its important to be more aware of what we are “listening” to.

[tAo]

Dear Jen,

You said: "Aman seems to follow a more natural way of being a Sant Mat practitioner. For some meditation works"

-- But how exactly is it that their meditation "works"? What I mean is... they do the same prescribed meditation (the same as all shabda yoga satsangis do), so how does their's "work" any better or any differently than anyone elses?

Do you mean in terms of getting results? If so, what results? And so how does the meditation of these particular "natural way" shabd meditation practitioners that you indicate "work" any differently than the rest?

What I am saying is this: What do you mean by "work"? And how is theirs any more "natural" than other satsangis?

So I just don't get your point. I myself don't see that there are any different classes of shabd meditation practioners... such as "naturual" versus non-natural. They are all doing the exact same meditation practice.

Thanks Jen.

[Jen]

Hi tAo,

I mean that what works for one person doesn’t necessarily work for others. Some people seem to have a more natural approach to meditation etc, whereas others find it more difficult (I personally don’t find it easy). I don't know much about results or what people experience, I'm thinking more along the lines of not following any strict rules and just being more natural in life.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen:

You wrote:

"I mean that what works for one person doesn’t necessarily work for others. Some people seem to have a more natural approach to meditation etc, whereas others find it more difficult (I personally don’t find it easy)."

Dear Jen, I whole heartedly agree with you.

What feels natural?

Personally, I need a good challenge, a good struggle. I like a good fight, and the best fight of all is the one within myself. The only one worth having. I thoroughly enjoy beating down distracting and tiresome thoughts, and letting the sun and the resounding splendor shine through!!

I love to conquer anger, lust, greed, pride. I have much of these. These are formidable enemies within me, so my sparing partners are always around. And if I don't knock them down, they mow me down.

And I am very upset when I see that I have fallen to each of these - for only one reason - the harm it has done to those I love.

So, I can't wait to burn down that house of passion every morning! And then there is real rest, and then I am a much nicer person to be around.

Now, if I was such a person to begin with, that would be different. But that is not true. I am victim to no one else but my own shortcomings. Fighting those, struggling with those is a full-time battle.

The whole notion of a Guru, a helper, is attractive to me because I already am struggling.

If I had no struggle, a Guru might seem superfluous. But I do struggle, every day. And I love to win, and hate to lose!

For some, life is much calmer, much more peaceful. But for those in turmoil, in struggle, in conflict, meditation can give them a fighting chance.

[Jen]

Wow Spence, very interesting, what hit me as I read your comment was it sounds so very Yang! Had a bit of a chuckle cause I also certainly get stirred up to fight the good fight every now and then, so I can see where you are coming from. You really do go into battle with the mind! Take care not to be too hard on yourself; I’m also there sometimes - in the struggle.

I hope its okay to share a quote from the Tao Teh Ching, which I think is very beautiful about holding the balance between the Yin and the Yang:

“He who knows the Male
And yet holds on to the Female
Becomes the ravine of the world.
Being the ravine of the world,
He is always in union with Eternal Virtue,
And returns to the state of the new-born babe.
He who knows the white (Yang)
And yet holds onto the black (Yin),
Becomes a model for the world,
His Eternal Virtue becomes unerring,
And he returns to the Infinite.
He, who is aware of glory
And yet holds on to ignominy,
Becomes the valley of the world.
Being the valley of the world,
His Eternal Virtue then becomes sufficient,
And he returns to the state of virgin wood.”

[+Ao]

Spence says:

"Personally, I need a good challenge, a good struggle. I like a good fight, and the best fight of all is the one within myself. The only one worth having. I thoroughly enjoy beating down distracting and tiresome thoughts [... ... ...] The whole notion of a Guru, a helper, is attractive to me because I already am struggling. If I had no struggle, a Guru might seem superfluous. But I do struggle, every day..."

-- Wow! Man, you are so caught up in duality. Take it easy there dude!

Try to understand: Effort is a sickness - the sickness of effort. Give it up. Or your struggle will never, ever, come to an end. Seriously. It's all in your head. Don't waste the rest of your precious life in that insane struggle with duality.

I see where you are at now. And it ain't a pretty picture. Take some sage advice from me dude. Try and nderstand. Try and wake up. You are deeply lost in the labyrinth. And you are clueless.

No guru/savior can or will ever liberate you. Your struggle is your own prison. Duality is a paradox. Drop the effort, the struggle, the duality... and you will awaken. Or rather, the self-perfected state will shine forth... As It Is.

Just ask Suzanne and Tucson. *wink*

[Spence Tepper]

Dear +Ao and Jen:

Thanks for your kind words.

What if letting go makes you a better fighter?
What if sailing the rolling seas of yin and yang is your destiny, with peace and balance merely stops on the journey?

I do not mind a good fight, and I am not afraid to lose. I fail often, but when I succeed, it is glorious! Neither do I do entirely by my own hand. I have a powerful Teacher. The entire creation is on my side, and only the past is my enemy. Frightening to look at, he is me.

[Jen]

Dear Spence,

I don't understand. Who are you fighting? Don't fight with yourself. Be kind to yourself.

Do you see yourself as a kind of spiritual warrior? I don't get it, what is this huge battle going on?

[Kalimera]

Both Tai Chi and Meditation are similar as they involves a harmonic interplay of the Self with the Body. It is an embodiment of the 'I'

Comparing Tai Chi with Kung Fu is interesting - Wing Chun Kung Fu in particular which comes closer (I feel) to Tai Chai. Their forms are fundamentaly grounded on the same principles that can be applied to everything, from washing the dishes to catching an item that falls of the table. They were created by the same people thru the same philosophy, a ying and a yang.

But Kung Fu involves another person. When you practice forms you practice with another person but without trying out to hurt him or her. (not sparring lets say - which of course is practiced)

When you practice the Sil lim Tao, you pratice it in space, through your body, consiously unconsiously.

When confronted with an opponent (that may be an item thrown at you, running away from dog, or another human being etc.) a slip up does not result in giggles and laughter. Kung Fu is Tai Chi applied in real life where real events happen. I would suggest that you take a few Wing Chun classes and see how beuatiful applied Tai Chi is, when it is enacted with another Human Being. There is a fluididy, a harmony that is reached that it is like making love. The meaning behind the Tai Chi moves are revealed and at once abandoned as Kung Fu, like I said, in its foundations is inseperable from Tai Chi. With Kung Fu you practice Tai Chi, but, with the freedom, the potential, or the possibility, in directing and focusing the moves for something, or towards something without being eslaved by this Liberty.

Tai Chi following this Tai Chi Vs Shabd yoga analogy is more akin to Buddhist 'emptying the mind'

Shabd Yoga is more aking to Kung Fu with its capacity to concentrate.

Now in real life, Tai Chi, Kung Fu, Buddist meditation and Surat Shabd Yoga can all coexist, so there is no need to set them up against each other.

This is video of Yip Man,

http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?hl=en&safe=off&num=100&q=solis&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#q=yip+man&hl=en&emb=0

[Kalimera]

excuse me, the above link is not correct, this one is though,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbNETKezmns

and this more trailer movie version:

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/drama/watch/v1803736438kYMbpq

[Jen]

Good comment: Both Tai Chi and Meditation are similar as they involves a harmonic interplay of the Self with the Body. It is an embodiment of the 'I'

Enjoyed the videos, loved the music Silent Moon by Jia Peng Fang, beautiful sound - the Chinese musical instrument (erhu).

[Amanda]

I'm just someone who came upon your blog by accident and just wanted to say thank you. I really get a lot out of your posts; your writings are so well thought out and so well written. Thank you for sharing.

[Roger]

"Personally, I need a good challenge, a good struggle. I like a good fight, and the best fight of all is the one within myself. The only one worth having. I thoroughly enjoy beating down distracting and tiresome thoughts, and letting the sun and the resounding splendor shine through!!"
---Nothing wrong with a good challenge, and maybe a good struggle. So, you like a good fight within yourself? The distracting and tiresome thoughts come from you. The sun and resounding splendor shining through was already there, before you created all this goofy stuff in your mind, by you.

I love to conquer anger, lust, greed, pride. I have much of these. These are formidable enemies within me, so my sparing partners are always around. And if I don't knock them down, they mow me down.
---Why create "anger, lust, greed or pride" in the first place? Why do you have a need to have much of these? If you insist on having such, then why turn them into formidable enemies? Why the need to knock down, what you created? Get rid of them, in the first place, then there will be no mowing down of you.

And I am very upset when I see that I have fallen to each of these - for only one reason - the harm it has done to those I love.
---Why create conditions(in your mind) that cause you to become upset? Just don't create the conditions, so no harm will be done.

"So, I can't wait to burn down that house of passion every morning! And then there is real rest, and then I am a much nicer person to be around."
---Why create a "house of passion" in the first place? If this "house" was never built, then there would be no need to burn it down.

[Brian]

Kalimera, I do study the martial side of Tai Chi. I pursued hard style martial arts training for about 14 years, and now learn Tai Chi from an instructor who is highly skilled in both soft and hard styles.

We often engage in partner drills, seeing how Tai Chi can be applied in self-defense situations. So I understand where you're coming from.

We study Li He Ba Fa, the 48 combat form, and other Tai Chi'ish forms that have a more intense energy to them. That's the beauty of Tai Chi, which as you said blends into Kung Fu (and indeed is the foundation of all Chinese martial arts).

[Robert Paul Howard]

I noticed that a bullet - shot from a distance - killed the heroic character in the movie trailer (as it was pretended/acted). And I believe two atom bombs ended continued Japanese action(s) in WWII.

It might seem that, on occasion, some other powers are greater than those of Tai Chi.

Robert Paul Howard

[Todd Chambers]

Thanks Brian. I asked this question because I have also practiced both (Tai Chi and Shabda Yoga). In fact, a former acquaintance of mine (fellow seeker in Radha Soami Satsang Beas, although he never got initiation) has diligently practiced Tai Chi for years. We even did some Tai Chi classes together with his teacher (who is a student of my Tai Chi teacher, who, in turn, is a student of one of my Tibetan Lamas). I still enjoy Simran and Bhajan, but have not done Tai Chi in many years.

[Account Deleted]

hi brain....

i have gone through fakir chand and u.g krishna moorthy..
and finally came into conclusion
fakir chand was meaningless
U.g was non sense..
and thank god both are not alive.

brian i m not here to preach as many times u took my posts as being dogmatic..
i also read life is fair..the book written by you,
and initially it surprised me..that being a author of such a nice book and being meditating for 30 years ...and coming out of it..
well in short i can say..its a personal individual..experience..
like before 30 years you was a different person..and when u came into rssb u felt u have changed a bit and become more different person..later according 2 u you realised everything is silly theres is nothing like santmat u came out of it and feel to be different person again..and a better one as compare to the following years as a seeker..

well what i have understood and felt is..everything doesnt work for everyone..
but what is strange in all is criticizing the path which you followed for 30 years...i do not know whether you werent that smart enuff to realise soon and u took 30 years to realise ur version of truth..

well,i do not want to get into discussion,because this blog is nothing but a blog with their own versions...
whatever you say you will get a opposite reply.

but anyways i happy...very much happy..
i know no one has nothing to do with my happiness...
my happiness is not seeing people saying wrong about a path..
but i m happy that i m in the company of many wonderful fantastic spiritual seekers...by relating to them...the urge of getting into it more and more keep increasing..

and i really enjoyed a long gap,staying away,from this blog..
and enjoyed reading fakir chand..u.g and life is fair.

[David]

Manish

It seems in your spiritual quest you haven't imbibed the character of letting go...

Hey go on your journey and let others too...

Your reply's are always a reaction and a font for your irritation to the opinions of others

[Account Deleted]

your are very much right david..but the irritation part occurs on the other readers not me..
i m simple,cool and calm...
and the reason for irritation because you all are tired and are unable to give relevant answers to my valid points..

i already in this blog said,i m just here for one reason..who will raise wrong voices and comments on the master...that will not be entertained..because 10,100,or 1000 people opinion doesnt matter and your experience are your own experience..do not impose it on others,if you guys havent been able to follow the path you have no right to spread this criticism,just for all your person irritation.

and i m very much going on my journey dear david..
and i m letting go everything..
but no one is able to really pin point and answer my questions...

i never speak or comment on any other issues discussed here because i m not aware about it or hold any knowledge..
but about rssb please pity on all of you..
you people doesnt know much about it..
and i can confirmly,confidently say that..

and people praise fakir chand..and u.g krishnamurthy in this blog..this itself shows you guys havent undertsood a bit spirituality..
because fakir chand and u.g both were nonsense..you guys are really unlucky to get into contact with these meaningless persons,
try to have faith and try to meet many more mystics and saints who were on earth and still on earth..then probably you will know the truth..
but i know no one is least interested or bothered..
as this blog is formed after a thought that theres no god,no spirituality,nothing..

what is truth is..self imposed thoughts and your own mind ...and you all are smart enuff..to understand and know everything..

and once again dear david...be mature..i m not at all irritated..may be you can see my face and read the expressions and just through my words you are misunderstanding me..

having opinion is different and knowing it is different.

the fact is many people yet do not know the real fact,the reality about santmat

if yes then please
brian answer me this

what have u done in santmat for 30 years..
why it took you 30 years to know that what you are following isnt true enuff..
well i do not think anyone who says i m been associated with rs for many years and now i m not and relieved ..he can not be trusted...if he can..then he must be a silly enuff person who took so long years to know his version of truth...truly sad...very sad...very very sad...
pity pity pity

what i can see in this blog is
smart people satisfying their mind..

but who is smart?
who believes and try a path for years
and later on leave it saying its dogma and bullshit
is he smart?
no way?
he is innocent..

now i need the reply from brian only brian..
i asked it you many times..

why you took 30 long years....
were you so dumb?
who forced you to follow the rs path
who forced you to get initiated
who forced you to believe rs
who forced you to meditate for 30 years
who who who who?

[+Ao]

Manish,

I see you are back and at it again. You really don't have a clue do you? You obviously still feel that other people don't have a right to their opinons or to criticise RS and its guru. But you are dead wrong Manish. The RSSB and its guru is a public issue and figure, and as such, people have a right to their opinions and criticisms. APeople can criticise RSSB and its master if they want to, and its none of your business. Because this is an open internet comment forum where people can post their own opinions, just as you are doing. You make yourself look ridiculous and stupid when you object to "wrong voices and comments on the master", and then you say "that will not be entertained". Who are you to object? You are just another narrow-minded guru-cult follower who wrongly assumes that it is taboo and off-limits to criticise the RSSB and its master. Think about it Manish. Think about how stupid and foolish you sound. It is people like you who make other RS satsangis look like a bunch of idiots. Nobody here has told you that you are wrong to believe in RS or that you should not follow RS or your guru... so what makes you think that you have any business coming to this site and telling other people that they cannot have their opinons about RS??

You don't respect other people's right to have their own opinions Manish, but you want them to respect your opinions. Thats pretty damn stupid Manish.

Here are some more examples of your hypocrisy:

"the irritation part occurs on the other readers not me."

-- No Manish, clearly YOU are the one who is irritated that other people criticise your RS master.

"and the reason for irritation because you all are t[ri]ed and are unable to give relevant answers to my valid points."

-- What "vaild points" are those Manish? So far, you have presented no such "vaild points". And many people here have pointed that out to you previously.

"i m just here for one reason..who will raise wrong voices and comments on the master...that will not be entertained."

-- Manish, you are a joke. Who are you to tell other people that "comments on the master...that will not be entertained"?? What a load of foolishness and rubbish.

"your experience are your own experience..do not impose it on others"

-- Nobody is "imposing" anything upon others.

"if you guys havent been able to follow the path you have no right to spread this criticism"

-- No Manish... YOU have "no right" to tell others that they cannot criticise. And people here HAVE in fact "been able to follow" the RS path... and for far longer than YOU ever have. By saying such nonsense as this, you are just making a fool of yourself Manish.

"no one is able to really pin point and answer my questions."

-- What ARE your "questions" Manish?

"about rssb please pity on all of you..
you people doesnt know much about it..
and i can confirmly,confidently say that."

-- Sorry Manish, but its YOU who are the one who obviously has very little knowledge and experience in Santmat.

"and people praise fakir chand..and u.g krishnamurthy in this blog..this itself shows you guys havent undertsood a bit spirituality."

-- That's really funny. Seems to me that you are the one who apparently has not "understood" much of anything about Fakir Chand, much less about U.G. What a goofball you are Manish.

"because fakir chand and u.g both were nonsense [...] these meaningless persons"

-- Is that right? Well how would you know or determine this Manish? Did you ever know Fakir Chand? And did you know U.G.?

"try to have faith and try to meet many more mystics and saints who were on earth and still on earth..then probably you will know the truth."

-- Why should I (or we) do that Manish? I am already a mystic... so then why should I need to "meet many more mytics"?? Your reasoning leaves much to be desired Manish.

"this blog is formed after a thought that theres no god, no spirituality, nothing."

-- Is that right? Are you sure about that Manish?

"you all are smart enuff..to understand and know everything."

-- Thanks for the praise, but I very much doubt that I "know everything".

"the fact is many people yet do not know the real fact, the reality about santmat"

-- Well coming from you Manish, that sounds rather lame.

"brian answer me this
what have u done in santmat for 30 years..
why it took you 30 years to know that what you are following isnt true enuff."

-- Manish, perhaps you too will know the answer to that... after 30 years time.

"well i do not think anyone who says i m been associated with rs for many years and now i m not ..he can not be trusted"

-- But Manish, why should anyone trust someone like YOU? ...someone like you who who has far less experience?

"he must be a silly enuff person who took so long years to know his version of truth"

-- In case you don't know it Manish... spiritual life is a process of growth and and progress and evolution. Sp for you to say that, shows that you have not progressed very far.

"truly sad...very sad...very very sad...
pity pity pity"

-- Pity YOURSELF Manish.

"who believes and try a path for years
and later on leave it saying its dogma and bullshit[?]"

-- Actually, quite a few people do that. That's the way life is.

[George]

Manish,

I've observed something about RS followers which is unnerving. An apparent inability to have RS questioned, its almost taken as personal insult.

Tolerance of religion is fine, but also the questioning of it.

As soon as any deep questioning begins then the RS disciples reaction is to berate the questioner as being some sort of arrogant all-knowing smart arse overly-intellectualised person that is supposedly caught up in their own mind.

In this way, attention is shifted away from the actual RS tradition being questioned and onto the questioner as somehow personally being at fault for being overly caught up in the intellectual prison. Its absolutely bizarre.

Who says these questioners are intellectually smart? You clearly feel Brian is dumb from your diatribe above, so why not let him question? What harm if anyone questions, let alone the dumb or spiritually naive?

Secondly, what do you actually think this, or any other, blog is about? Its an exchange of ideas or concepts through written communication. One cannot have an online RS experience of the shabd or of a satguru's magnificence.

By taking part in a blog discussion you immediately are in the realm of ideas and the intellect. If you have a problem with that, why take part? IF you are so sure as to the ultimate futility and limitation of intellectual thought and reason, why do you blog on a site specifically aimed at questioning religion? Its almost like some form of masochistic self-flagellation.

[Account Deleted]

thanks a lot george i liked your way of explaining..
i understood it and i do agree it..
and about tao..
tao i m unable 2 understand how to make u understand what i actually wanted to say..

well first of all do tell me this everytime that i know little about santmat..
well what i can say..you people know either little or nothing about santmat.

and when i say no one has the rite to say wrong about master..well
the way you people had rite and started this blog and its a public issue..i too have a rite to raise my voice..
and whenever master is represented in the way he shud not...def its natural that i can point out and question everyone who is questioning about the rs path and its master..

and tao you said your mystic
no dear no ur a mistake not a mystic..

you urself proved me that..

and i dont want reply step by step 2 ur post as again you will use ur brain to reply it in a opposite idea..and manner..

I ask you

Why you joined R.s
Why you got urself initiated?
why u practised it for so long years?

and how can anyone trust people like you brian...
who knows after 20 years from now..you people start a new blog saying that we were following something wrong from last 20 years that we created a blog called churchless but we now feel its all shit and now we are on a new search new theory new thoughts new ideas?
Answer me this?

why brian wrote the book life is fair?
i think by seeing his past 30 years association with RS..
he sounds me one of the most silliest foolish person alive on this earth..

if you arent able to follow
understand..(please tao do not say again..that u did enuff and we dont know anything,please come out of this myth)
i have an experience of 30 years myself
50 years my dads,75 years my grand dads and 100 years my great grand dads experience regardint santmat and many more people i dont know to mention..with whom i m associated..i know all my masters very well
i met them many many times..
but neither spoken regarding this neither will i speak abt it now..

it will anyhow do not and will not matter to westerners..

there was an incident in hazur sawan singh baba jis time

a man stood and asked me ...master if anyone in this gathering says that he had experience then i will believe you..
master said strange..
you will not believe me but will believe the seeker..

anyways..
rite now i m not in mood to reply..
will get back to you again soon

and yes i know many people personally who were known to fakir chand and u.g both

u.g was a physic person,i even visited to his place where he was born and i have known to many of his known persons..

i dont want to say a lot about myself..
you do not know anything tao..you people havent understood spirituality at all.....
and one day its my words you will def realise the truth...
i know you will give damn to the above written words..
my biggest weakness is my language..and i m not that smart enuff yet to make you understand..

but nevertheless..
mr rakesh is a one man army i love reading is post..he knows the best to convey..

and george is also good and very nice and respectful..and most imp very meaningful..

and please dear tao i do not need to check myself about santmat..
you people need time ...not me..

i m very much in santmat...
very happy..
very very happy..
very very very happy..

not for one reasons..
oh god there are number of reasons.......

anyways...enjoy..

i will be back after sometime...

thanks rakesh ji and george..
rakesh ji theres a lot to learn from u
you are the perfect rs follower.

[George]

Manish,

I think you probably know a great deal about RS and you are quite entitled to defend any attacks against these that you percieve to be ill-informed.

However, one should provide reasons for their viewpoint, not just dismiss others out-of-hand with sweeping generalisations.

For example, it is surely correct for ppl to challenge the satguru's assertion that he is GIHF (god in human form). Upon what is such a claim based?

Its not an insult, merely quetioning how such authority is vested.

[chi flat iron]

If you're in the area, check out the demonstration. It's lovely to watch too -- like a dance with no music.

[Brad]

Hello Brian,
Reading this post, raised another question in my mind, that I would appreciate your take on.
What is the difference between Tai Chi, and Qigong?

[Blogger Brian]

Brad, I'm no expert on this, but here's my impression from doing both Tai Chi and Qigong in my Tai Chi class.

Qigong is a form of "energy work." So is Tai Chi, of course, so in a way Qigong could be viewed as Tai Chi done in place. Meaning, there is very little lateral movement. Mostly we stand in one place and do various movements -- slowly, with attention to breathing and energy.

The Qigong movements, as we practice them at least, are almost completely different from traditional Tai Chi movements. Some bear a resemblance to a Tai Chi move, like White Crane, but mostly they're quite different.

Often we'll do Qigong for 10-15 minutes, then move directly into a Tai Chi form. It usually has a somewhat different feel, given that we've gotten into a Qigong frame of mind, so to speak.