The title of this post is the tag line on David Lane's web site, Neural Surfer. I like it. That's a great place to be -- the shore line of reality where skepticism shovels away the loose sand of mysticism, getting closer to a solid bedrock of truth.
Here's a sample of David's take on the subject: "Tangled Phone Lines: why Richard Dawkins hung up on Ken Wilber."
Like me, David is an initiate of Radha Soami Satsang Beas who has decided to take seriously the precept that it's possible to have a "science of the soul."
I clearly believe that mysticism can be studied scientifically. Indeed, it already has been for decades.
I don’t necessarily think that mystics and skeptics should depart company and go on their respective ways, but I do think that if they seriously communicate with each other something is bound to give. And what each side may have to give up is more than they might be willing to concede.
...if a mystic is serious about studying the subject scientifically it means that he or she may have to radically revise their understandings and prior theological dogmas about what is actually happening when they undergo a transformation of consciousness.
He uses Faqir Chand as an example. Chand was an Indian guru who was appealingly honest about his mystical powers. Or rather, non-powers.
For example, when disciples would claim that Chand had appeared to them in his "radiant form," Chand would reply that he knew nothing about this. Yet David speaks about how other gurus were reluctant to concede that mystical experiences are only within a disciple's mind, not in some sort of objective reality.
To be truly scientific, an organized religious or mystical faith has to honestly admit "These teachings could be wrong."
However, how many do so? Not many. Maybe none, in fact.
So it is necessary for anyone who wants to pursue a scientific approach to mysticism to strike out on the Reality Road on their own. Because organizations have a vested interest in preserving their belief system, even it is wrong.
My belief is everyone must, at a certain point, go it alone no matter with which tradition they began-- if they wish to grow. All the greatest mystical teachers (at least those recognized as being such) did this. Religions in general block this experience.
Posted by: Rain | May 13, 2009 at 10:53 AM
Brian observed: "Because organizations have a vested interest in preserving their belief system, even it is wrong."
The following blog article by my friend Les over at at Visisble Origami, explains the over-all situation quite well, and it also explains a great deal about the way that I myself am, and why I am the way that I seem to appear to be to some people... people who obviously have a hard time understanding me and where I am coming from.
This article says alot about Les, but also says a whole lot about myself as well. Perhaps it will help others to better understand where I am at, and why I am the way I come across... as well as various other insights:
http://lesvisible.blogspot.com/2009/05/my-may-metaphysical-radio-show.html
This next article may also prove to be interesting reading (along more spiritual lines) for some folks too:
http://lesvisible.blogspot.com/2009/05/living-in-time-of-avatar.html
Posted by: tAo | May 13, 2009 at 06:38 PM
your post and the links provided are quite informative and absorbing. it makes a good sense.
it put all known things in one thread.
Experiences of a mystic are real or false nead to be tested by the mystic alone.
If any test is made in science, its validity is ascertained by its reproducibility. How accurately the result can be reproduced within a reasonable level of precision.
Practitioner of any faith/ technique of meditation have to have a feel of it, that is to be answered by himself/ herself. Rather than seeking a testimony from rest of the world.
YOU HAVE RIGHTLY PUT "organizations have a vested interest in preserving their belief system, even it is wrong."
THANK YOU FOR THIS POST, BRIAN.
Posted by: rakesh bhasin | May 13, 2009 at 07:43 PM
The Great Deception Machine:
http://smokingmirrors.blogspot.com/2009/05/stuff-world-and-great-deception-machine.html
Posted by: tAo | May 14, 2009 at 07:20 PM
I liked faqir chands work. It's a little
more absorbant than r.s. material. However, i will continue to use charmin most of the time, it's biodegradeable.
Scientific research on mysticism ? a little late to the party put better late than ever. Gopi Krishna's work "the secert of yoga" and "higher consiouness and kundalini" were written in the 70's.
Also, "kundalini, the evoluntionary energy in man". Rational, scientific, with real proposals for isolating and investigating the higher state of consiousness that does truly exist.
I only wish i had discovered this before i wasted so much of my life in a dogmatic cult to nowhere. All religions like r.s. can need be looked at for a day max. Shovel away the mountain of dogma shit and lies and find the one person somewhere in there that had the experience and move on.
Posted by: Cyfer | May 16, 2009 at 08:11 AM
Gravitation Force is the Ultimate Creator, this paper I presented at the 1st Int. Conf. on Revival of Traditional Yoga, held at The Lonavla Yoga Institute (India), Lonavla, Pune in 2006. The Abstract of this paper is given below:
The Universe includes everything that exists. In the Universe there are billions and billions of stars. These stars are distributed in the space in huge clusters. They are held together by gravitation and are known as galaxies. Sun is also a star. Various members of the solar system are bound to it by gravitation force. Gravitation force is the ultimate cause of birth and death of galaxy, star and planets etc. Gravitation can be considered as the cause of various forms of animate and inanimate existence. Human form is superior to all other forms. Withdrawal of gravitational wave from some plane of action is called the death of that form. It can be assumed that gravitation force is ultimate creator. Source of it is ‘God’. Gravitational Field is the supreme soul (consciousness) and its innumerable points of action may be called as individual soul (consciousness). It acts through body and mind. Body is physical entity. Mind can be defined as the function of autonomic nervous system. Electromagnetic waves are its agents through which it works. This can be realized through the practice of meditation and yoga under qualified meditation instruction. This can remove misunderstanding between science and religion and amongst various religions. This is the gist of all religious teachings – past, present and future.
Posted by: Anirudh Kumar Satsangi | June 22, 2009 at 12:17 AM
lol, crap.
Posted by: George | June 22, 2009 at 06:58 AM