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May 06, 2009


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".......the practice of shabda yoga meditation is not done to "open up the mind and release it from the supposed clutter of the intellect". It is done specifically to bring the attention of the practitioner to directly perceiving the shabda/nam or the inner sound current (which supposedly emanates from the highest spiritual plane), which then supposedly has the power to automatically draw the practitioner's consciousness upwards into higher more subtle inner planes."

---I think, this description, is what caught my attention, some 2 1/2 years ago, when I came across SantMat, in an unrelated internet search.
---Granted, everything (there in) is in the realm of the supposed.
---With that said, what I found interesting was the "direct perceiving" of the shabda/nam or the inner sound current.
---Likewise, how the "power" automatically draws the practitioner's consciousness upwards into higher more subtle inner planes.
---As well as, more information or description of these planes, the power, and what is meant by a practioner's consciousness.

My interest, currently, is kinda low, due to the lack of further information, regarding the above inquiry.

Actually, there is little detailed description of the "inner regions" in RS literature and the masters rarely discuss them. In fact, I do not recall ever hearing Charan Singh discuss the inner regions at all except in the most cursory manner. At initiation some description is given but nothing to really sink your teeth into. These limited descriptions are given as "guideposts", nothing more.

The reason given for lack of description is that these inner planes are difficult or impossible to describe and more detail just leads to more questions which are a distraction from the real task, i.e. meditation and stilling the mind at the eye center or third eye.

Descriptions are given of the nature of the shabd or sound current in various regions such as bells, conch, flute, thunder, etc. Also the intensity of light is described as a star brighter than a million suns or the radiance of one hair on the body of the lord is brighter than millions of suns.

I recall one RS book titled, I believe, "Radha Soami Teachings" where a description of inner regions is given. Also another book called "Sar Bachan" does this, but in both cases there is little of substance to satisfy the inquiring mind. For example, the region Sahansdal Kanwal is described as having islands or "dweeps" inhabited by elevated souls or "hansas" who reside in bliss living on nectar. Another higher region is called the rotating cave or "Bhanwar Guphta". These regions are described as vast beyond comprehension where if the entire physical cosmos was superimposed on them it would appear like the head of a pin compared to the size of the sun.

In Sant Mat consciousness or awareness is probably interchangeable with "soul", "surat" or "jiva" which are the terms most often used. This is my interpretation because the concept of consciousness or awareness is not well developed in this religion. It is the soul (awareness) which in sant mat is covered by the dross of various bodies, subtle and physical, which impair its ability to function in higher regions and perceive the lord of the highest spiritual region.

I don't think many devotees will openly admit this, but the idea of hanging out in bliss on some spiritual island living on nectar with advanced beings sounds pretty cool especially since they are supposedly guided there by the radiant form of the master. This world we live in is described in sant mat as a "vale of tears", a latrine in comparison to the spiritual regions, so those who are unhappy in this life or think it is too hard, find sant mat a very appealing escape from what is right now, not to mention a solution to the problem of their mortality.

Tuscon writes
"I don't think many devotees will openly admit this, but the idea of hanging out in bliss...sounds pretty cool"

I'm happy to admit this. I just don't think folks should use Sant Mat as an escape from this life, or as an excuse to fantasize about some fictionalized, future nirvana. Sant Mat masters are quite clear about not running away from this life, however.
Also, I believe Sawan Singh gives quite detailed descriptions of inner regions, etc. I can't remember which books specifically, but I do remember reading passages by him where he is clear and specific in his description.

Adam said: "I just don't think folks should use Sant Mat as an escape from this life, or as an excuse to fantasize about some fictionalized, future nirvana. Sant Mat masters are quite clear about not running away from this life, however."

--Perhaps they shouldn't use Sant Mat as an escape from life, but although you may not use sant mat as an escape many devotees do. True, masters do say not to run away from this life, but at the same time they say this life is false and unreal, a pus effusing scab, a blight on the fields of creation (my words). Sawan Singh did refer to this world as a latrine, and Sant Mat does encourage withdrawing as much as possible from this life while still carrying out ones duties according to their fate karmas.

The implication then in sant mat is that one is not in bliss (peace) now and bliss/peace must be sought via a process to get to another state. While the cosmology of sant mat may or may not be actual, we do know that we ARE here right now. Sant Mat is a supposition, while what is available now is not.

Daswan Dwar, Trikuti and Sach Khand may be a possible presence, but as such right now they are only concepts and thus dualistic... That is like saying, I am here, but reality is somewhere else. But, no matter where I go, there I am. So, to me it is impossible for reality to be other than 'this' whatever form it may be.

To say my home is in a place called Sach Khand is to say something is wrong with where I am which is, again, impossible because I am always here! Sach Khand is the error because it, as it exists conceptually, is not. Only 'this' is.

It is the recognition of the clarity of 'this' which is at the heart of the matter for me.

Tuscon writes
"To say my home is in a place called Sach Khand is to say something is wrong with where I am"

How do you know?
What if "sach kand" points to a "place" where awareness is not manifested in the physical?

It seems clear the physical manifestation is not permanent...

What if there is nothing wrong with this, but that there may be other types of (un)manifestation?

Awareness is already not physical in my view. If Sach Khand is home then it must be here now because there is no other place than here. When you are there, there will be here. See what I mean? You cannot escape 'here'. All else is abstract. If non-physical phenomena become 'here' then so be it, but the awareness present is no different when the potential 'here' manifests than the already present 'here'. We are already home, a home with no walls or boundaries. A home that can never be found except the living of it in/as this formless clarity which is as they say, our original face.


Thanks for the reply. Enjoyed the read. Descriptions of the inner regions would be interesting. However, a description would just be a description, nothing more. IMO.

It is interesting, that no One has ever transversed these regions. Or, they are very good at keeping these experiences to themselves.

I wonder what it would be like to transverse the regions of Poland, and get a haircut?


Understand perceive O beloved mind
How can you slumber and be a Lover?
Having received then share it all
Or would you rather lose it possessing?
If crumbs be all that you have to fare
Does it matter if it is salt less or tasty?
When eyes are loaded with deep sleep
What is then the pillow and bedding?
Says Kabir, such is the path of Love
Why lose heart having committed yourself?

With mind immersed in Love, why should I talk?
Having the diamond knotted safe, why again I open the knot?
Empty scales at initiation are full, why measure again?
Rationality became intoxicated, by drinking without measures
Swan reaching the lake, need wander in ponds and puddles?
Your Lord is your inner Self, why seek him outwardly
Says Kabir listen my folks, I realized the Lord within
- like oil contained in the seed.

What is seen is not the Truth
What *is* cannot be said
Trust comes not without seeing
Nor understanding without words
The wise comprehends with knowledge
To the ignorant it is but a wonder
Some worship the formless God
Some worship His various forms
In what way He is beyond these attributes
Only the Knower knows
That music cannot be written
How can then be the notes
Says Kabir, awareness alone will overcome illusion

idi-0-sync-ra-tic, Kabir speaks the truth. That's why he was so down on organized religions. Kabir urged seekers to commit themselves to finding reality directly, not through the experience of others. Wake up! he urged.

Yet often people do lose heart and return to reliance on others, not trusting that reality is within their own self, not in holy books, holy people, or holy icons.

Like I noted before, Kabir was too wild for religion. He's a patron saint of churchlessness. See:

Dude, that's enough Kabir poetry. Speak in your own voice if you want to make a point. Kabir would prefer that.

Dear Brian,

When did you cease being churchless?

Why have you stagnated?

Do you not realise you have become as much a believer as those you criticise (and indeed censor such as Ashy)?

You believe in the supremity of science to reveal all secrets.

You believe in the ability of the intellect to comprehend and explain all things.

You believe you understand the *real* meaning behind the linguistic constructs that thousands of years of mystics have *used as tools* to motivate, perhaps even placate, the minds of humans? How do you understand the real meaning? By taking the linguistic constructs as literal truths, then gleefully dismantling them?

You now censor those with opposing views? Under a pretence that, imo, is almost cultic in it's lack of self-awareness; Here we have Tao, the most personally abusive and irrelevant of ad hominem attackers in the entire history of this forum.....praised?

Tao, my dear friend, you keep coming with these mechanical lingustic deconstructions; meaningless. You must know every now & then somebody who actually knows what they & you are talking about, will come and spank you? :

You talk about your vast inner experiences? Was this by a process of osmosis? I've been reading your posts for years, and we both know you're talking absolute nonsense. Have some self-respect and self-introspection before you start fooling around with all these gullible posters here.

You know NOTHING about Shabd Yoga.

You know NOTHING about Dzogchen.

Your entire incessant anti-RS vitriol is based purely on word-play.

You use the moniker 'Tao'.

Yet you know absolutely nothing about Taoism (except perhaps the basic Tao te Ching).

Within a moments discussion you would be shown up for the game-playing, dishonest, braggart that you continuously want to play.

Tell me about the transformations of Chi that lead to the immortal body? Tell me about the physical transformation, as well as stages of meditative experience that one reaches after years of Taoism practice?

Tell me about Treckchod, Thodgal, Dark Retreat, Thigle & Kati in Dzogchen?

Tell me what Shabd is experienced as at a higher level of experience?

Tell me, from a first-hand perspective, your vast experience of the 'inner'?

You can't, because there is no Wiki page you can find these on.

You may all be very proud in your criticisms and 'cogent' analysis etc.

But it's all hot-air and intellectual word-play.

I can teach a teenager to trounce you in debate within a few days.

But, that would be utterly pointless. Because it's merely word-play based on sheer nothingness.

ANd incredibly dishonest, insincere and lacking in anything GENUINE.


I was in a similar organization to Sant Mat called Suma Ching Hai. It was an interesting organization but after I got attacked by criminals who left me mentally disabled for the rest of my life, I realized Suma Ching Hai is a fraud and a fake. Prior to getting attacked I gave it all to the Master who I later discovered never wanted to initiate me.

I found the Suma Ching Hai organization to be seriously a dictatorship. The vegetarian diet requirement was one thing that lead me to a total alienation from society. The 2 and a half hours meditation was another thing that lead me to alienation from society. Also, keeping silence while eating after meditation and preventing me from socializing was another thing that alienated me from others. I found the technique of Suma Ching Hai to be too escapist from reality. It made me feel lonely and rejected.

Also, after I got attacked I discovered the true face of the initiates and the Master. Both of them were against me because I was the only Indian guy in the New York Center. I was told by one initiate whose name is Peter from New Jersey that he felt I was out of place being in an organization largely dominated by Orientals. He maintained that prejudice due to his racism and would not give me a chance to be a part of the organization by yelling at me when I tried to answer his questions and so on during volunteer opportunities.

I find meditation cannot be practiced because of its strict requirements and demands on a person. There is nothing wrong with eating meat. If you like to meditate and eat meat, then by all means go ahead. Also, there is nothing wrong with going out and socializing even if we meditate. We are social beings after all.

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