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May 08, 2009

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A close member of my family, who is reaching the grand old age of 100, sat with the Great Master on a few occasions and said it was easy to talk to him and get guidance at any time............Now he says it is nigh on IMPOSSIBLE.....Where indeed is the guidance....What pray tell is the purpose to having a living Master!


I dont understand why you need to meet master again and again for guidance
what quidance any RSSB follower wud require
completely no guidance
as every thing is clearly understood thru satsang
santsangis
books
and i think after knowing everything only one get into the queue of inititation..

and all gurus said one same thing again n again
DO your meditation

now what guidance one wud require
and how many times..
from the time of soami ji maharaj guru nanak dev ji kabir ji
everything is clearly mentioned

its just our lack of having proper faith understanding we without doing the real work get into brians mind and start analysing..

and yes masters use their intellect just for one point reason spirituality
they never form blogs
or any infinite scriptures
or force anyone
or impose anyone
their goal is always ONE
from centuries..

but all weakness lies in us..
we first learn the art from the master
and later on start challengning and questioning the master
strange
very sad
poor..


theres was a movie in hindi
god tussi gr8 ho(god ur great)

there with ego
the hero says
i have this i have that
i have made this
i have made that
i have found this
i have created that this and he goes on

god just reply with one answer
WHO MADE YOU ?
well if here you all can understand hindi
do watch this picture..

hope atleast brian will not take this as DOGMA atleast..

cheers brian sometimes i really feel pity..not on u..on myself :)

Manish,

I don't think I've wasted my time at all. Ofcourse it's not possible for him to meet all his followers individually. There are millions of them! But it should be possible. The stated purpose of a guru is to act as a guide. That, fundamentally is what a guru is supposed to be! Personal coaching and teaching is important.

You probably won't agree with me on this but whatever, right?

As for God Tussi Great Ho. I've seen that movie. It wasn't intended to have any religious significance. It is a comedy and not a very great one at that. It's a rip off of the movie Bruce Allmighty. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

Manish,

“A spiritually fulfilling life is based on a foundation of four pillars:
• daily practice of meditation/yoga
• regular spiritual study
• spiritual relationships and fulfilling responsibilities
• the service of humanity”

Ok Manish, you are a male in a satsangi family in a very male dominated society and you probably belong to a huge extended family.

The first two principles stated above are easy to comply with but what if spiritual relationships are lacking? I used to think when I left the country I was born in that I would have a family wherever I went – a satsangi family. Boy, was I wrong. I’ve come up against racism from other satsangis; they are only interested in their own little clicks; the hierarchical group of the organization are aloof and snobbish; the discourses are very dogmatic, negative and have a strong religious flavor; so none of this is very helpful.

There is a totally different vibe in Buddhist group meetings. The atmosphere is one of love, compassion, peace and equality. So what is wrong here? Surely the satsangi behavior must reflect the path that they follow? Why do so many satsangis turn away from satsang because of the reasons outlined above?

I’m still a satsangi and still follow the four principles. I just miss the support of the sangat and also the closeness of the guru, it just doesn’t seem right that the physical master is so distant in my life. I haven’t even spoken with him personally, I am shy and don’t want to stand up in front of everyone to ask a question, anyway I don’t have any questions. There is something, which a master passes on to a disciple called spiritual transference, so being so distant from him is difficult. And then again, so many people have had close contact with the masters and been thoroughly disillusioned; although this could be mainly because of the way the satsangis behave.

well i have come into conclusion that you poeple havent understood my point of view at all
i m not at all preaching
you said this blog is abt sharding personal opinions,knowledge,experiences and insight
and i m doing the same,
i m not preaching at all by any means
and i always asked valid pooints much better that you all have asked anything here
i always asked about the reasons of non belief and none of them werent able to answer any of my question?
because simply you people doesnt have any answers..

and tao who is anyone who gives 2nd chance
this is interent and everyone has the chance..
and everyoneone has the rite of speech of their thoughts and views.

and u also said onething which is purely incorrect that my master is not ur master
then who is ur master ?

well i think you havent read my posts completely..as i told u you people do not know who i m and what i m,

but anyways that will make no effect..to you guys
and abt that coroprate co and grandsons theory they were mere examples to make you people understand but sorry TAO you are not ready to understand anyones point of you..

so i think theres no point in discussing anything with you beacause u say others preach infact its u who preach
i never preach anything...
few post which i have posted which seems like they are preahings they were the articles i just pasted here which were didnt even belonged to RSSB..

but its all your lack of knowledge..that you took it in a very wrong manner..


"And here in the USA, we still have our Second Amendment right to bear arms (to own and use guns), so beware and don't get any funny ideas."

well dear TAO i havent threatened anyone that what all i said was not true i have revealed it if you can trust it its ok and if u can not its ur problem
and regarding the threats threats are always given by cowards..and i do not believe in threatning.
and abt 2 bear the right of arms..in that aspect you dont know me... .that too with lots of influence of many big daddy behind me..
in that case i m sorry tao ur much weaker than me,
u claim to have good knowledge than others which i dont even agree at all,
but power wise your not better then me anywhere..
because u dont even have the clue abt myself and my background..
and i no need to be beware at all my dear,
i m in that position where i damn care for anyone..you need to be careful though there are many many more much more stronger person than you here...who have many arms with them,
but anyways i do not want to prove any point here..


and please tao atleast start understanding the truth
i m not here to preach any RSSB..
perhaps i dont need
its just you put ur belief which is non rssb
and i put my belief which is rssb
but the thing is if any wud have noticed abt u in blog...
u just try to prove onething ur belief is rite and others is dogma..

and i know the mentality of USA people
they have habit of living life unsystematically without ethics and etiquette..

i still remember a note in a news paper
which said
Singer Madonna is pregnant with her current boyfriend..

so these kind of ill mentality USA people are made up of...thats the reason after jesus no other saints or mystics have been witnessed or had come.
because USA people only believe in
sex
lust
temptations
do not respect any other religion
have their own set of mindset
they all r selfish
probably with very less knowledge
they just claimed that they know everything but infact they doesnt know anything at all

and USA people are very much innocent and dumb
i remember reading in news paper of a real joke took place in USA
long back when a lady called a toll free num to get sort her computer problem
and when the executive on call said ma am plz 1st open that window..
she went to her room window and opened it..instead of opening the window in her pc..
that kind of dumb knowledge USA people inherit..


and once again i say i m not here to preach at all
like u ur self i m sharing my beliefs and experience..

and TAO i have seen no point any valid point in ur belief and ur stuff


i only liked one point in u
which i already has decided to follow

and i know after i decide it you people will with lack of ur knowledge will say hey see an RSSB dogma follower runing away from us
well that will be so dumb n innocent

i have already planned to quit this blog for real long time and have no intention to come back because this place has no value and its not every worth in any way to come back and stay here..

i just come for the reason may be i will find some genuine people discusing abt the path and their beliefs.
but nopes..the story here is totally different

brian and tao are just trying to preach their point of view which i havent seen any single person getting benefited

anyways theres no more point in discussing anything here
you people will anyhow will not understand though..

so do whatever u like..
think whatever u like
post whatever u like

it doesnt matter to me or any TRUE RSSB follower at all...

thanks tao n brian for being so patient with me..
hapy blogging tao n brian
stay in ur illusions and have a funnier life with no meaning involved in it...

i hope you lost years in practising
atleast i wish you do not lose any more years here after
and have a peaceful death indeed..atleast i mean..

good day..
bye..


leaving this blog
as for not that i cant be here or do not want to be here
its no worth to be here..its pure waste of time and life..
and for this above comment please feel free to oppose it in ur own ways tao i do not care dear...

bye bye

Manish, goodbye. You won't be missed. Yes, you are preaching, no matter how you look upon it.

When you say I'm staying in my illusions, I couldn't disagree more. I feel like I've woken up from a religious dream into vibrant reality. There is so much more, repeat, more, meaning in my life now. Because I'm no longer waiting for the meaning to come from some outside source -- God, guru, grace -- but feel it resonating within me. Repeat, me.

Lastly Manish, you lied when you said you'd become all churchless. You only said that so you'd be able to have some additional comments left up on this blog, which I've done because I'm a nice guy.

You might want to think about what "sat" (truth) means in your life. Do you really believe that it is OK to lie in the name of your religious faith? And that this is a positive thing in the eyes of whoever or whatever you worship? Just a thought for you to consider.

Once again: ...yawn.....

Robert Paul Howard

Dear Manish,

You are right, and let us not have any disagreement or bad feelings. You are searching in your own way the truth. I do not wish to hurt your feelings. You simply want to understand why some people come to RS and then leave RS. Its alright. I understand now. Also, this is just a blog and I feel that we should not criticise or make enmity towards each other. So I apologise for anything I said against you or RS. I wish you well. Please excuse me for being rude or unkind. I believe that you mean well. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. Please forget whatever I may have said before, and don't be offended. And please feel free to stay and carry on here and discuss your questions about people leaving RS. I am having to be away from here for awhile. Maybe I will see you when I return. Radha Soami

Best wishes, tAo

Manish you said:
"Again it depends upon individual choice..
1st by becoming more intellect we can only get more confused.."
Hello Manish. This is simply not true. I speak from personal experience - using intellect does not make you more confused. Everybody already is confused, whether you realise it or not ;) Using intellect makes you realise the limits of your knowledge, and it makes you more able to reflect on yourself and your attitudes and actions towards the world, people around you, and living beings in general.
Also, it annoys me to see people claiming that western way of thinking is not about practice and is materialistic and devoid of any insight, where eastern is spiritual, practical... This kind of thinking just shows a lack of knowledge.
There is no such clear distinction between west and east, through history there have emerged numerous ways of thinking in all parts of human society, they are never absolute in one society although some would like them to be - this is where critical thinking becomes crucial - to examine different systems of thought, realise their limits, expose their dangers, but also find what is worthy in them. For nothing is black and white and no human is truly good or bad as the concept of goodness or badness is always just that, a concept, not a truth by itself. One may pursue the ideal of becoming a good human, but he can never say that he is such, for nobody knows what goodness means ( according to whose standard? ). To realise that there are other eyes that see the world and yourself in it is the beginning and necessity of any ethics.
Also from your comments I think that you have a problem with "materialistic" thinking, where I gather that by materialistic you mean devoid of values,joy of life, emptiness of spirit. I think that you fear your own "materialistic" side that could be revealed when you would be stripped of certain beliefs. I recommend that you do not try to project such problems onto everybody that does not share your beliefs, it is not a fruitful task. Sometimes true, sometimes not, but equating such "emptiness" with a lack of a certain belief is definitely wrong.

Manish,
I get really irritated when somebody gives me a silly logic of India being superior morally than USA. What do you know about India? Assuming you are a Punjabi (based on your last name), have you ever seen the male-female ratio in your state? Punjab has the lowest sex ratio of the country (and i guess in the world) because of forced abortions of girl fetus. There are less than 900 girls to 1000 boys.

Do you know how many women are killed for Dowry and raped everyday on the streets every where in India. How many women are denied education and forced into arranged marriages? How many women bear the abuse of their husbands every day and live in depression.

How many people close their eyes and pretend nothing is wrong when a 8 year old is wiping and cleaning your house as a forced labor for Rs 300 a month or even less than that. How many times in a day you give bribe to a babu to get the simple things done like fixing your home phone line or forget it getting treatment in an emergency hospital.

Morality is not about sex only!
And not everybody in USA is hopping around with free sex everywhere. Come out of the dream world of hollywood. Bollywood is very cheap too, all you can see is girls in skimpy cloths and men raping all around.

What a nice story manish said, too bad he started off by wanting to find tAo and beat him up.

At the end of the day i think that many people have posted valid arguments regarding or against RSSB.

Yet, there are certain elements of these critiques that I would like to attend to.Before I do though a small note, First of all I am 31 and an initiate, who has not been to satsangs for two years and before that another two. Broke all four vows without remorse or thought, many times. You get the picture.Read many books from alice in wonderland to foucault. What attracted me to Santmat was its conspiracy story (keeping always in mind that a story is map,not the thing itself) and its emphasis on practical experience. Thus I was similarly attracted to the gnostics.This satisfied my intelkectuality as these were and are my mental dispositions.

Practically I was attracted to Zen and its practical philosophy.martial arts etc. Between the two extremes, of gnosticism (textual knowledge, but its practices somewhat lost in history even though elements of hesychasm and prayers still exist) and of Zen, which asks for pure practice, when you sit sit, and its apparent but not exactly true, de-emphasis on textual reading or intelectual speculations. Regardless, both philosophies still appeal appeal to me. Hence in modern day,foucault.

Now back to my initial reason for writting and my critique of this churches critique of RSSB: A bloger somewhere said that God (Brian) created this blog and does as he wishes. That is not exactly true, people participate and the theme is created via this interaction. The completed text,has discontinuities but never the less creates or has created (through introspection, interaction w one another,time and reflection of its several protagonists) a discourse which gives A picture of Santmat. One perspective.And what i write now is part of it.The readers are many, and it has completely different effects on each one.

This discourse, and dont start with the anti-americanism bs, is by and large an american one, or to b more exact a US one, with a touch of UK, and Europe. A western one. And the issues raised are issues that are intimate or local to the West, and specifically, to pin point it, in blogs such as these.

These ontological, scientific, non scientific issues, are like 19th century people trying to define enlightment and rationality...semantic masturbations. As you see my gnosticism does not subside easily. That this discourse is not universal, and it is specific is very very important for even Brian to acknowledge. That this discourse is always undergoing changes and never is, again is very important to digest. And lastly, following its current formation and philosophical projections, the discourse leaves the possibility open that it might even be wrong and that Bank Nal might exist without peyote.

Ok, so you entered RSSB and meditated for 40 years,and have not crossed Bank Nal. Obviously that does not disprove the teachings. It does not approve them either. And from hence on the Sant mat discourse comes and says that even Jamail said "not to believe your master until you see with your own eyes". The same thing the current guru says. And the churhcless discourse abandons esoteric discussions and directs itself to the social setup of RSSB and analysed until no end. Meditation is not dealt at all and instead the conspiratory mind (which was fed as such) turns itself against the conspiracy story itself (Kal/aKal).

By writting this i would like to emphasize the issue of meditation, inner experiences etc.
Is it surat shabd that some people have been practicing or is it dream yoga, or is it counting to 2,30hrs in seconds yoga?

You may be against this all you may, but the issue does not go away, and the blog has chosen to look away from it all this time. What is mental plane,,,and how does sant mat treat it. What do you understand of its its treatment. It is subjective offcourse as hell, like I told to tAo above. Yet it is there, like dreams, inner thoughts, inner landscapes, inner spaces, inner selves, inner stories, inner feelings,,,

I heard a charan saying something like, I only have one answer, your job is to come up with questions.

Dialogismos,,,which in greek literally means introspection, self-reflection,,,,and so many other English words, like meditation.

nice post alx

aix, I'm reading my first "deconstruction" book -- Derrida and company (albeit in a simplified fashion). So I can relate to some of what you said about this being a continuing journey to discover the meaning of words such as "mysticism," "Sant Mat," "spirituality" and the like.

These aren't givens. The meanings are found in contexts, discussion, and all that good deconstructive stuff. (The last part of the book I'm reading talks about how Taoism and Buddhism also are deconstructive, in that they are out to dissolve dualities and rigid logic systems.

On another point...sure, absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of absence. Like you said, one person's experience (a mystic's, or anyone else's) is his or her own. Maybe they've soared to Heaven and the lap of God.

Maybe. Or maybe not. Pretty thin pickings to found one's meaning of life on, or a religion. So my feeling is that each of us has to rely on our own experience, since there is no objective evidence that God is real or anyone has known God. This is why I write about my experiences with meditation, and encourage other people to share their own stories.

What I find, however, is that most people like to cite chapter and verse from someone else's story -- a holy book, or utterances of a holy person.

Anyway, the story telling continues. Thanks for adding your thoughts to the mix.

alx

pretty interesting, and yes i hold my hand up for likening Brian to the creator. Anyway enough of that before my sense of humour (or lack thereof) is misunderstood and i insult the churchless further.

On your post itself, i too find RS interesting and was drawn to its seemingly closeness to gnosticism, which seems pretty interesting in its own right. Seems to me one difference is the concept of a demiurge and i'm not sure if that can be reconciled with RS.

alx,

“the issue does not go away, and the blog has chosen to look away from it all this time. What is mental plane,,,and how does sant mat treat it. … like dreams, inner thoughts, inner landscapes, inner spaces, inner selves, inner stories, inner feelings…”

It would be great to have someone address this question.

George,

“Seems to me one difference is the concept of a demiurge and i'm not sure if that can be reconciled with RS”

From Wikipedia – Demiurge – in philosophical and religious language is a term for a creator deity, responsible for the creation of the physical universe. Gnosticism holds that the physical universe was created by a Demiurge. In Dharmic religions Maya is believed to be the illusion of a physical universe.

In RSSB - Kal (Time) the universal mind, is the name given to the ruler of the three perishable worlds (physical, astral, causal) – another name for Brahm. Kal personifies the negative power of the creation. Maya means illusion, delusion; whatever comes and goes and is transient; the phenomenal worlds (physical, astral, causal); the veil of illusion that conceals God. Sometimes personified in Indian philosophy as Maya or Shakti (Glossary: Spiritual Letters RSSB).

Have decided on a new pseudonym cause I feel its probably more befitting on how I am perceived here… illusion upon illusion… lol

Thanks flakey. Very interesting.

Dear alx,flaky and George,
With regard to inner planes.I once read in a sant mat book that the "soul" as it ascends through the various planes takes on the characteristic of that plane.Faqir Chand on the other hand,so I understood it,maintained all the inner planes to be
illusionary and a product of the mind.Only when he queried what he saw was he able to enter a formless state and then he only remembered going in and coming out.Nothing about the state of formlessness could he remember.
Under normal circumstances ,it would seem most people would find it impossible to even imagine,for example,a fifth dimensional universe.
The closest to perhaps a fifth dimensional state could be the realisation of "cosmic consciousness".
I hope this helps a little.
Obed

Obed,

I understand Faqir Chand was some sort of hindu mystic, but was he connected with Sant Mat?

By fifth dimension, i presume you mean our present capability of perceiving four dimensions: x, y, z (space) and time. Mathematicians work in many more dimensions, and if you interested in physics it seems present string theory requires 11 dimensions.

Yes, I've read briefly on Sant Mat talking of such different planes that the soul is able to transcend. I am quite interested in whether this can be reconciled with gnosticism that also appears to speak of different levels of reality. I dont know if i am putting it clearly or to clumsily, but one wonders if these different layers of reality or planes of existence or dimensions are associated with correspond gods. For example the demiurge being a creator force believed in gnosticism to prevent our physical knowledge of higher spiritual planes, but whom itself appears to be below the ultimate reality as it were. I would need to study and think about the two systems more to try and make my points clearer.

From a comparative viewpoint to gnosticism and sant mat, i initially felt their seemingly fundamental tenent was was quite overwhelming and strikingly similar, i.e. both place fundamental reliance on a direct experiential intuitive knowledge (gnosis) over faith-based scripture or revelation.

But I suppose that can be said of many indian or mystic traditions, which brings me back to my original question to all the flakey kooks who know more about all these mystic traditions, as to whether there is not some sort of underlying basis which joins them all.

Cheers
George

Dear George,
The underlying basis which could join all of them could be the life process working through the brain and creating virtual realities in the medidator's
ego tunnel.According to Thomas Metzinger author of the ego tunnel the brain is a supreme producer of virtual realities.It is possible that the virtual space generated by the brains neural network particularly by the microtubules in the axons could theoretically produce a higher dimensional space in which virtual realities may appear.The shamans for ages have spoken of these
inner spaces and so have mystics.The enteresting thing is that there does seem a uniqueness to each persons realizations which may indicate that it all
occurs in each persons ego tunnel.
Some researches are speculating that a fifth dimension is being produced by the electro-magnetic effect in the axon microtubules.At this stage it is all very speculative.
All the best
Obed

George,

Fyi, Faqir Chand was 100 percent connected to Sant Mat. And unless I've mistaken, I believe he was a disciple of Huzur Sawan Singh, aka The Great Master of the RSSB. Brian can probabaly confirm that. If you want to know more about Faqir Chand and also the other branches of Sant Mat, I would recommend checking with our friend David Lane's research.

And btw, thanks for your kind response. And if you would care to send me a private e-mail, I'd like to corresond with you. Send it to Brian, and he will forward it to me, and then I will get back to you directly. I lived and worked in London for a couple of years back in the late 60s and early 70s.

Best wishes to you.

tAo,

Actually no not quite. Faqir Chand, had a very intimate relationship with Sawan, which the truth is we can never know how exactly its details. Surely,Chand praised Sawan as a great master, that adviced him for certain things that again we can never know their full details; if i recall from what I read Sawan told Faqir to go and act as he wishes, with full confidence that he is doing the right thing. He gave him a garland of flowers that Faqir did not take off for a long time.

Now,
from,

http://www.babafaqirchand.com/baba.html

'....Once, he wept for 24 hours continuously for the glimpse of his Lord. Doctors were called in and they administered medicine to him. At about 5 A.M. Maharishi Shiv Brat Lal Ji Maharaj appeared in his vision. He drew water from a near well and gave him a bath and then told him his address of Lahore.

This vision convinced Baba Faqir Chand that God had incarnated Himself in the form of Maharishi Shiv Brat Lal Ji. So Baba Faqir Chand wrote every week to the address, which Data Dayal Ji had told him in the vision. Inside the letter he always addressed Maharishi Ji as God. After full ten months, he received a letter from Data Dayal Ji Maharaj, wherein he wrote, "Faqir, your letters, I have been receiving regularly. I value your sentiments and your passions for Lord. I, myself have discovered, Reality, Truth and peace at the feet of Rai Sahib Salig Ram Ji of Radhaswami-Matt. Provided you feel no reluctance in following this path, come and see me at Lahore".

Baba Faqir Chand reached the ashram of Hazur Data Dayal Ji and prostrated his humble self at His Holy feet. He advised Baba Faqir Chand to attend Sat Sangs of Radha Swami Matt wherever available. In-ward practice as directed by His Holiness, became part and parcel of his life. And remained satisfied with his concentration on the Holy Form of His Holiness Hazur Data Dayal Ji Maharaj.'

the primary documents of all of his writting are somewhere online. He actually describes with great detail the inner levels, and there is one (out of the four) documents that is actully very very discriptive of Sant Mat inner planes, and their corelation with our biological body. Its an interpetation of the same cosmology that corresponce with what sant mat books say, yet it is different in many ways. Other analogies etc. and more in debth.

George,

An interesting book is “Radhasoami Reality, The Logic of a Modern Faith” by Mark Juergensmeyer (he is not a Radhasoami initiate). David Lane is quoted as being Juergensmeyer’s “research assistant on this project”.

There is a Radhasoami Family Tree – A Genealogical Outline in the book, which was prepared by David Lane.

There are different lines of masters from the original Master Shiv Dayal Singh (Soamiji Maharaj).

The Beas Branch genealogical tree outlines the Masters from Master Shiv Dayal Singh through Jaimal Singh, Sawan Singh, Jagat Singh, and Charan Singh to the present Master of RSSB, Gurinder Singh.

Faqir Chand is listed under the Agra Branch genealogical tree. His Master was Shiv Brat Lal, who is listed under Rai Saligram - an initiate of Shiv Dayal Singh. Rai Saligram was a contemporary of Jaimal Singh.

Most of the comments on this site are about RSSB, the Beas Line of Masters.

Cheers

The Sar Bachan excerpt was to be expected. Exposure from the inside of any organisation is intolerable to those in power.... but more than tolerable to the people questioning the authority.

Incidentally, the sar bachan is a hodge podge of bits and pieces, many of them rather questionable. THE WRITTEN WORD as gospel, is in this case laughable.

As an ordinary person, I don't value threat- loaded dogma.

Alex and Flakey,

Thank you both for all that info. I stand corrected. I had a feeling along those lines (the Agra connection), but at that moment my memory was mixed up. I could only remember that Faqir had some kind of relationship with Sawan. I should have checked references before commenting. My fault.

David Lane has some good info on Faqir Chand and there are two books online called 'The Unknowing Sage' and also 'Truth Always Wins'. There is also has some video footage of Faqir on Google video. David Lane had met Faqir. Also, although I myself never met Faqir Chand... during the 1980s I was personally acquainted with Dr. Sharma of Hoshiarpur (near Chandrighar), who was close to Faqir and carried on after Faqir passed.


Obed,
Thanks, Metzinger's book does look interesting and I need to have a read.

It seems many of these fields, in metzinger's case psychology, as well as many of the mystic traditions and even some scientific theories do in fact support a model of the universe where these is no "I" or "self". So while i teased about nothing-ness i was trying to take in what was said.

However, these theories appear vague and often circular reasoning ensues with such highly abstract thought. For example, why from a logical viewpoint would such underlying 'formlessness' manifest itself in a universe with so much illusory form? I'm naturally retiscent to try reconcile science with spirituality, but have always enjoyed science fictin and your proposals are interesting - keep them coming.

However, my question above was more from a comparative spirituality viewpoint, which is do you happen to know what the main doctrinal differences are between 'gnosticism' and 'mysticism'?

tAo,
Yes, I was wondering if he might have been connected with one of the other Sant Mat branches, since i saw he was connected with Harjit Singh who i thought was one of the satgurus, tho might be the wrong Singh?
(No problem for the email, i enter it whenever i post, and presume Brian is able to send you it?)

Flakey,
Thanks, you seem to have an encyclopedic knowledge of SM, i've obviously got the wrong Singh, who i thought was one of Faqir's disciples.

Actually i might ask you the broad question i asked Obed above, what would you consider to be the differences between gnostisicm and mysticism or in your view is gnosticism simply another mystic tradition?

Dear George,
I am sorry I cant help with gnostisicm and mysticism.My main interest is trying to reconcile
science and mystical experience and I have never really studied gnostisicm.
A good site to start your research would be here at
http://www.sacred-texts.com/
you may already know this site
All the best
Obed

Hi Alex,

You said above: “What attracted me to Santmat was its conspiracy story (keeping always in mind that a story is a map, not the thing itself) and its emphasis on practical experience. Thus I was similarly attracted to the gnostics. This satisfied my intellectuality as these were and are my mental dispositions.”

I’d be interested to know what you mean by the ‘conspiracy story’ in Sant Mat. Wondering if you are referring to the negative power keeping souls trapped in an illusionary state?

Also George has asked about the differences between gnosticism and mysticism, it would be good to hear your take on this.

Thanks for any info.

Catherine,

What is the Sar Bachan excerpt?

flakey,

The "sucession story" of Sant Mat caught my attention, some 2 1/2 years ago, through an internet search. Maybe the conspiracy is in the sucession story. The genealogical tree and the GIHF issues seem to conflict with one another. Can God be in several human forms at the same time?

Roger

Roger,

I agree that the family succession and mechanics of the GIHF thing conflict, and makes things a bit confusing from a theoretical point of view.

When a guru dies why would this GIHF property pass onto family member only. Surely, if there was no attempt to keep the worldly power that comes with being a guru within the family, the GIHF property would pass on to the most worthy person. If there is indeed a GIHF property that passes on instead of the whole thing being a figment of people's imagination, how would the present guru know who the most worthy person is? Does it really pass on or does, as you said, more than one person possess this property at the same time? If so how can we tell?

So many questions

Rose,

Good points made. I'm guessing, each Sant Mat branch Master(guru) has a following that holds firmly to their "one and only" GIHF. I see a conspiracy developing, when a so-called fake GIHF comes around and challenges the supposed "one and only" true GIHF.

well rose its not true that the guru inheritance goes to their direct family..

jaimal singh ji has no relation with sawan singh baba ji and sawan singh baba ji disciple Jagat singh baba ji lead the path for 3 years and then sawan singh baba jis grandson charan singh baba ji came..

and now gurinder singh baba ji is related to him but not directly i mean neither charan singh baba ji son nor sawan singh baba ji son made the way..
perhaps they belong to the family but that doesnt and shud nt have significance,because raising these doubts i think theres no point in discussing these issues here..

rather then seeing and finding the truth many people are looking here for..

and i would like to also get into notice abt one of the most dynamic saint and mystic who came in sawan singh baba jis time i do not know anyone knows about him or ever heard....

he was the true disciple of sawan singh baba ji named as mastana ..,mastana ji with the grace of baba sawan singh ji was said to take care about sirsa...

if anyone would be interested to explore more deep about him can travel to sirsa and talk to the sewadars and disciple who are still alive who served mastana ji..

he was kind of saint never ever came on earth nor can ever come on earth again..

how and why well i will not comment about him i gave you the clue interested people may carry on and can trace his history.

he was the guru who led the way in his own terms...he was known as the miracle man..

so anyone who are more keen to explore the truth and genuiness about mystic please explore more about him.

may be anyone you find something worth to be known..

and may that known thing turn out to be useful for you..

but do not delay there arent many people alive yet of his times..
they are very very few..


and tao you said i havent acknowledged your message,
well i have done..but as i said i was off for sometime..

tomm i m leaving....and may be it will take sometime for me to be back on this blog..

because now i have realised what mistake i have done..

and this time i will be back with some reasonable conversation and discussion which shud be understandable to you all..

i havent read this blog completely,now 1st i will go through this blog completely and then after that i will be back on this forum,

but yeah i have decided onething though..

as santmat doesnt allow this type of conversation,as its just waste of time..

but i have decided to lessen my time viewing TV which i watch too less..

so i will reduce one hour of watching T V,
and devote that time here..
i will take it has sewa for myself..
now why i call it sewa perhaps i have seen many people shacky belief towards RSSB,
i have no hold pr right on anyone who is in or out of RSSB,
but i do not want any firm believers faith shud get shaked by reading blogs like churchless...its nt that i do not have faith in my master or i m scared,
well its just because many views which are presented here arent exactly correct and true..

they used saying of kabir also ..but in a very very wrong manner...with totally a different meaning..which is not exactly true..

how and why,give me sometime...i need to do some research for it..
as i have read many kabir books..but hindi version not english one..and havent read all his books as well..


and all knowledge of spirituality i have gain from my elders..my grand dad,my father and his brothers and many well experienced old age people..

i m thankful that my faith was built up by the influence of thew real people following the path,but one this is very true i have choosen this path myself without any pressure from my family people that its like a kind of tradition and i shud go by it nopes not at all,its like a natural belief and urge pulled me towards this path again for many various reasons.
i really want to discuss lots of real live experiences to just make him believe that the path you choose was right..

but theres a q? for Tao

if at all i share any kind of experience not exactly inner but still some sort of exeprience related to spirituality..

i really wanted to know WILL you trust at me?

there was a strange q? once asked by a disciple of sawan singh baba ji
he said baba ji if anyone in this group accept that they had spiritual inner experience then i would believe you,
sawan singh baba ji its really strange that you do not believe my words but are ready to believe the words of my disciple.

and in one stanza..of kabir it showed no guru nothing is required..
well i do not agree that point also..
as i said i will be back with kabir sayings meaning after going through it and discussing the knowledgeable people..


another q?
people often comment
god in human form
i have one q?
in which form we will recognize him,

perhaps that human has always was only able to identify about humans only
we do not understand any language or form to communicate..

if god cannot come in human form?
then it what from?

well and abt RSSB guru been stated as GIHF,
well again its misunderstanding..
they are here to guide us,now i m really surprise why many people say that its written in their books n stuff please tell me which book it has been written?
as i read almost every book,

they are not god..but yes they have the connection with god which is written in santmat book also and mentioned in satsang of sawan singh baba ji,

i remember one of mastana jis disciple when visited our home we were just having spiritual chat then suddenly he said "IF god is here then who is there?"

god is supposed to be at the place where we have to reach thru spiritual journey we already know we call it has sachkhand..

so he just quoted if god is here on earth who is there in sachkhand..

it was a worth to think..
and it also remind that direct interaction wid god happens and happened..
but yeh what all you people look is for proofs..

well talking about proofs it reminds me onething
when we all born..
do we anyone of us do we really know the feeling of ours at the time of our birth
what was our feel at the time we born.
we cry..did we felt
we use to see people do we remember and recognised them
we use to laugh how and why?

same when we go to our ending part of life death
every one dies..?
rite?
everyone has the experience of death..
but as it happens and the man goes..so we still are arent aware of how death is felt like..?
these 2 important factors of our life are unknown to us?
may be they are known to us in some other alternate way which we arent yet aware of?
because we born it was fact
we werent aware of our feelings?
its also a fact?
we die?a fact again
but we do are not anymore to express or to say people how we felt like?
because they were no more ?
so now my question
isnt it possible that interaction wid god is also related and may be sounds like the above feeling...
which we may feel but for some reasons arent able to disclose?
may be theres something unknown to all of us?
and who knows it never reveal it?


isnt it sounds like a child accidently sees someone have intimate physical relation,as he has seen for the first time he might feel that stunning shock.
and in vain he wasnt able to disclose this fact to anyone out of many reasons may be his lack of understanding,because of fear.shock.
whatsoever..
but when he comes to know by time..he then understand what it was actually?
and then he too get into intimate relationships but sure not to disclose anyone?

we know intimate relationship happens
we know a man has physical link wid a women
but are they disclosing ?
arent they done in closed doors?
if this one act of human nature is done on close doors?

isnt not poss?
that god exist?
and we could meet him?
but we cannot disclose it..

well actually i m trying my best to make you people understand in my language?i do not know how much i succeeded..

perhaps rite now i will leave ...
as i m feeling that i still lack of expressing myself..

i will try my best the next time..
i can directly talk to tao with many true facts
but the important point is
will he trust me?
or how will he trust me?

and the major point when he haven't trusted my master how can i feel assure he will trust me>?

or else asusually he will just give opposite reply to my post..


but still what all i have learned from my elders and spiritualy strong relatives..
santmat is the rite path....


but none the less people fail..
because of they follow the below
sayings:


EVERYONE WANTS TO GO TO HEAVEN
BUT NO ONE WANTS TO DIE.

Manish,

Glad you haven't gone away forever.

However, you say that you have already responded to my message to you, but the fact is that you have not posted anything here since I wrote you that message. So I itthink either you missed what I said, or you may be confused. Nevertheless, I offered an apology to you, which you have not commented upon. You don't have to reply to that if you don't want to, as that is your choice. But don't say that you have responded when you haven't. I have not seen you post any response to me until today, and even today you really did address anything that I had said to you a few days ago. Perhaps there is some difficulty in the communication.

In any case, as I said to you some days ago, I hold nothing against you and I respect that you have your chosen beliefs and path. But that does not mean that you are right, or that your beliefs and those of Santmat are 100 percent true. And investigating that is partly what this blog is concerned with - with discusssing what, if anything, is really real and true in any of these spirtitual paths, beliefs, dogmas, or so-called masters/sants. Just because you (and other satsangis) believe certain things (Santmt/RS), does not make it all true. Some of it may be true, and some of it is not true. So that is what we are trying to find out and discuss here. That is what mere preaching of dogma is not helpful. We already know all the dogma. What we are discussing here is what, if any of it, is actually true? ...and what is myth? So you see, simply making dogmatic assertions that something is true, does not automatically make it true. There are many illusory ideas and beliefs in the realm of spirituality and religion and mysticism.

You have said that you wish to show us the truth and correct our understanding. You are welcome to try to do that if you wish, but just remember that simply posting quotes from gurus and scriptures and the like, does not prove any validity. We all are open-minded and willing to hear whatever you may have to say, just as long as it is not preaching or presented as rigid dogma.

So again, I apologise to you for any harshness or antagonsism towards you from my side. You are a fine fellow and I am sure that you mean well. Please accept my sincerity and best wishes.

Before I end this post, I would like to address just a few small things that you said today:
"i think theres no point in discussing these issues here."

-- I respectfully disagree. Any and all issues are worth being discussed here.

"mastana ji [...] he was kind of saint never ever came on earth nor can ever come on earth again."

-- Perhaps, but please bear in mind that that is only your own personal opinion. So it helps if you can acknowledge this. Thank you for telling about this person.

"and tao you said i havent acknowledged your message, well i have done..but as i said i was off for sometime."

-- Well Manish, you say that you "have done", but I had not seen any reply from you until this comment today. So I think you may be mistaken.

"because now i have realised what mistake i have done."

-- I don't think you have done any "mistake", other than preaching a little too much. As long as you discuss the issues from your own thinking and experience, and in a respectful manner, there is no problem. I think everyone agrees on that now. So go ahead and share whatever you like of your own thoughts and views.

"i have decided onething though.. as santmat doesnt allow this type of conversation,as its just waste of time."

-- It is not that Sant Mat does not allow this type of discussion... Sant Mat does not prohibit discussion. It is rather that the current leader/master of the RSSB does not wish it. But you should be free and do as you like. I support and defend your freedom and your right to think and act and converse about any subject (including Santmat), however you so please.

"many people shacky belief towards RSSB, [...] but i do not want any firm believers faith shud get shaked by reading blogs like churchless."

-- You may feel that way, but that is not your concern. If people are "firm believers" as you say, then their faith will no be shaken. So what are you afraid of? Why should you not want people to find the truth? Why do you wish to prevent people from looking at all the facts and information? That is their business if they want to read blogs like this one. You do not need to be concerned at all about other peoples "faith". That is their business, not yours. Why do you think that you need to interfere with other peoples choices? Why do you think that other people should not be exposed to this blog, or not read the information herein? That seems rather narrow-minded and suppressive and controlling. If people have faith in RS, then that is their choice. If people want to read this blog, that too is their choice. You have no reason to worry about that, or to try to prevent people from reading whatever they want to.

"its just because many views which are presented here arent exactly correct and true."

-- Again, that is ONLY your own opinion. It is not necessarily the way things are. The views that are presented here are not necessarily wrong or incorrect. They may very well be quite true. Just beacuse you disagree with them, does not make the views and facts presented by other people wrong or incorrect. This is somehting that you still do not understand. You are very one-sided in your thinking. You think that this blog is all wrong. But that is not necessarily so. You may be the one who is all wrong. And so you need to bear that in mind.

"they used saying of kabir also ..but in a very very wrong manner...with totally a different meaning..which is not exactly true."

-- Again Manish, whatever has been said here about Kabir is not necessarily wrong. I know some little bit about Kabir, and I can say with a fair degree of certainty that the RSSB version of Kabir is not quite accurate. RSSB uses Kabir and it puts a considerable RS/Santmat spin upon Kabir's words and teachings. So what you say and assert about Kabir, and especially about Kabir being supposedly mis-portrayed by others here in this blog, is not at all necessarily true or accurate.

"all knowledge of spirituality i have gain from my elders..my grand dad,my father and his brothers and many well experienced old age people. my faith was built up by the influence of the real people following the path"

-- Well that may be so, but just getting information from other believers does not make any of it true either.

I myself generally don't derive my views from what other people say, regardless of who they are or how much other people may respect and believe them. I derive my views only from my own experience and insights and reasoning. I don't just blindly trust what other people may say. I agree with them only if what they say compares to what I myself know or feel is true.

"i really want to discuss lots of real live experiences to just make him [tAo?] believe that the path you choose was right..

-- Manish, you cannot "make" me (or anyone) "believe" in your path, or any path. In attempting to do that, you are disrespecting my own views and my own considerable direct experience and knowledge. And I did not "choose" any path. I don't follow any other paths. My very own unique life is my only path.

"but heres a q(uestion)? for Tao if at all i share any kind of experience not exactly inner but still some sort of exeprience related to spirituality..i really wanted to know WILL you trust at me?"

-- You can share whatever you like about your own expweriences, and I will certainly accept that you are relating your own experiences as you believe them to be... BUT, I don't "trust" the experiences of others. Why should I trust other people's supposed "experiences"? I only trust my own experiences, and even then, I still must measure and determine their validity.

"in one stanza..of kabir it showed no guru nothing is required.. well i do not agree that point also."

-- You are entitled to your opinion. I don't agrere with you though. There is no absolute rule when it comes to spiritual matters. No guru is required. Some folks may find a guru helpful, and others may not need any guru. In life, there is no rule.

"as i said i will be back with kabir sayings"

-- Well... just don't be preaching and posting reams of quotes from Kabir, like you were doing before. Post your own thoughts and ideas, not Kabir's.

"i have one q? [...] if god cannot come in human form? then it what form?"

-- Response:
A.) First, you are presupposing that "God" exists.
B.) Why is there any need for a "form"?
C.) What makes you think that God is not present in every form?

"and abt RSSB guru been stated as GIHF,
well again its misunderstanding. they are here to guide us"

-- That may be true ("they are here to guide us"), but Santmat indicates that the so-called Sant or Master is a unique embodiment of the supreme Godhead. This idea is basic to the Santmat doctrine, and it is evident throughout the RS literature.

"many people say that its written in their books n stuff please tell me which book it has been written?"

-- In many of the books.

"but yes they have the connection with god"

-- RS also says that as well. But what proves that they (the sants/masters) are unique in that? Many other people and gurus etc claim to have a "connection" with God too. Its all just heresay.

"god is supposed to be at the place where we have to reach thru spiritual journey we already know we call it has sachkhand."

-- That is merely assumptions based upon RS theological and cosmological constructs and dogma. You are obviously very stuck on and in these sort of ideas and beliefs... which you view as real and true... but which are in reality, merely conjecture.

"what all you people look is for proofs."

-- Yes, that is generally true.

"we all born.. [...] same when we go to our ending part of life death every one dies..? rite? everyone has the experience of death. [...] my question isnt it possible that [...] may be theres something unknown to all of us? and who knows it never reveal it?"

-- Well no doubt, there is a great deal that is "unknown". But just because there are things unknown, that does not prove the existence of God, or sach khand, or etc etc.

"isnt not poss? that god exist? and we could meet him?"

-- Anything is possible.

"now i will leave ... as i m feeling that i still lack of expressing myself."

-- You are expressing yourself as best you can, and that is just fine with me.

"i can directly talk to tao with many true facts but the important point is
will he trust me? or how will he trust me?"

-- It all depends upon your supposed "facts" and whether or not they are really facts, or just mere opinions and beliefs. But I (and the rest of us here) am open to hearing whatever you have to say.

"the major point when he haven't trusted my master how can i feel assure he will trust me?"

-- But why should I trust your master? What has he done to justify that I should trust him? Who is he that I should trust him? And similarly, why should I trust you, simply because you say something? I am not the kind of person that just believes whatever anyone says. I have my own experience, wisdom, and discrimination.

"or else as usually he will just give opposite reply to my post."

-- No, I don't "ususally" do any such thing. I reply only according to what I think and know and feel. And that depends upon each particular comment. It isn't always the same or "usually".

"but still what all i have learned from my elders and spiritualy strong relatives..
santmat is the rite path."

-- You see, that's my point... YOUR beliefs depend entirely and only upon what others have told you, what you have derived from others. My views and opinions and conclusions do not.

"EVERYONE WANTS TO GO TO HEAVEN
BUT NO ONE WANTS TO DIE."

-- That may be your feeling, but I don't subscribe to that saying. I don't "WANT" to go to heaven, and I don't worry about dying either.

Roger,

I agree, problems do arise when people start defending their "one and only" true GIHF and maybe this is the conspiracy Alex was referring to. I personally don’t see why there can’t be many masters on this earth at the same time, as you say “God in several human forms at the same time”.

I believe the creator to be pure energy, the life force so to speak, and the Masters are those who have traveled the inner regions with the help of their Master (who is their teacher and inner guide) and they have then merged their souls (energy/life force) back into this original ocean of energy/creative force. So we need a spiritual guide who is in a human form otherwise how can we communicate with pure spirit or energy?

Kool says:

"you all looking for some proof, if David Lane or Winston Churchill or Barack Obama or Bill Gates or Stephen Hawkins told you all that they had a spiritual experience and it was verified by them as fact, would you believe them?"

-- No, I would not believe them, not any of them... because why should I? I don't care who says it or who supposedly has "verified" it. I don't care whether a supposed great mystic says it, or whether a renowned scientist says it. It's not about what anyone SAYS. It's all about having substantial evidence, or the lack thereof. If they have the evidence, and therfore can show it, then lets see it. Simply saying "verified" or its a "fact" means nothing without the actual evidence.

"So if for some strange prudent reason you might believe one of these noble men of society that spiritual experience is verifiable and true"

-- But you see, I DON"T "believe" anyone... unless they can produce conclusive evidence to support their claim, or their supposed "verifiable" experience. To say "verifiable" means that everyone can see and thus verify the proof of it.

"how come you sit here in all your skeptic wisdom and deny what any of the saints tell you categorically to be the case?"

-- For the very same reason... Simply because they have not, and they cannot, show any substantial evidence. They cannot prove it and they have not proven it. It is all just conjecture and hearsay. Inner planes, sach khand, sants & sat-gurus, marked souls, and all the rest. It doesn't matter WHAT "the saints tell you categorically to be the case". It doesn't matter what anyone "tells". Its all just abstract ideas and beliefs.

So you haven't said anything of substance here.

And I don't care WHO it is that says they've had some "experience" or other. I've had experiences too, but it doesn't prove anything. Experiences, even if they did happen, don't prove anything.

Why is this so difficult for believers to understand? Why is it so difficult to understand that its only mere beliefs and hearsay that you are putting forth, and not proven facts?


No, no, I was not referring to that conspiracy, I was just using coloqual word to describe the cosmogeny of Sant mat and its similarities with Gnosticism. Its conspiracy, when viewed with our understanding of consiparacy. But this has tricks, because the word conspiracy can be used in many context. People were taken to the gulags because they were conspiring against the Soviet State; were they wrong? Once a conspiracy is verified to have substantial grounds to exist, it is no longer conspiracy.
Thus conspiracy can be the weapon the supressed use agains the hegemonic power, and can also be the weapon used by manevolant people to take control of a system. Or it can, as in the case of Soviet, to be used, to dismiss ALL criticism and place them in the category of Conspiracy theories, hence not based on truth. I should not have used it in retrospect.

well tao that is the major problem i m facing here..

you say you just reply according to ur own preception and thoughts and ur own wisdom,
then tell me how can we take this discussion further,

because everytime you just reply back in contrast,
like this we will never come into an conclusion,

for the results i think the most of people searching for the result,the truth

well again u mistook that my belief depends on others not at all,

well we always learn everything from our elders,and my personal views are i respect my elders and especially the enlightened man of my family my grandad who is no more,

i like everyone trust my family people,
i know they would never lie me,
i know they would never want their only son to follow the path which leads no where,

my family is so much closely involved with RSSB gurus from the time of sawan singh ji,

my grandad was closesly associated with charan singh baba ji,
i know thats not the exact reply you will be accepting for,
but tao i have many many limitations that i cant go ahead than that...
i can merely try,

and again please do not think i m afraid of anything that others wud might come here and so,
i m not at all afraid
its very simple tao,RSSB critics are there way back from 100 years,this is nothing new..
just the medium is new and thats thru internet and blogging,

even soon i m planning something that i will recommend every RSSB to visit this website and go thru it and then decide whether to follow RSSB or not,because it will really help them a lot to stiff there trust and faith,

and tao please understand me,
i m not at all here to preach of popularise the path neither i m defending,

but like you said you are here with ur experiences and i m here with mine,
but the thing is i m unable to express is exact manner,

and you said theres no system rules for anything
come on dear tao
theres is system in each an every thing in our life

a human takes 9 months to come to this earth
is nt it a system,
we faces 4 seasons,
summer,autum,spring n winter
isnt not a system
we have 24 hrs a day
and the day starts from morning to afternoon to evening to night
isnt not a system...

first of all my another point
science doesnt believe god..
well i never trust science...which is just merely performing and finding and inventing those experminents which are done on the platform called earth...which is again the result of the creator...

ok lets take god to be a power,
and dear tao i already said god has no form...
kkan khan main hain ram,
theres is god in each and every tiny piece of stone.
i never said god has a form.
if we believe any kind of faith or path
everywhere its mention god has no form..and god if formless,,
again to be frank its experience of others,
but tao a ?for u..
u said i do not believe in others...i believe in myself..
but whatever we have gained learned and known is from others..
if we ourself left alone in this world perhaps we wud have known nothing...

we learn from others always,,
we learn to talk from our parents
we learn to walk from our parents
we learn the meaning of words from our teachers...
we learn music from music teacher
we learn dance from dance teacher
whatever we learn we have to have a teacher or a guide..

today my parents taught me everything thats the reason i m able to converse here..
if they wud have left be alone and thought that he will automatically grow and gain knowledge it wud have not be possible at all by any means or chance..

we always need guide,
if we go to a new place to visit we need a guide..
we need guide every time everywhere..

and yeah who believe and proofs that so called gurus are connected to god..
now this question is such..
finding the answer and making it explain wud rather be a task,

and u said i dont trust your master..
you are talking abt the person at one time whom u trusted,but today you dont..

santmat or any other path needs complete surrender..
and tao why seeing many other satangis and sewadars u change ur views..
they are just any other human beings
being RSSB doesnt mean he wil def lead to sanchkhand or he is special not at all
by merely calling RS doesnt show any advantage,unless until u follow the way it is...

i too sometimes feel sad that many satsangis and sewadars..are really spoiling rssb name..but cant help..there will be such kind of people everywhere..

but what we shud concentrate is only one thing
ur trust and faith in master
now tao i dont need reply for this comment of mine
its purely my trust n believe
one day one of my relative also asked the question
manish do u know anyone who has seen the light and heard the sound..he meant abt inner journey
now interesting he was asking me not lack of faith but lack of devoting time and giving time for spiritual practise he is so much involved in his worldly tasks that he merely has no time for spiritual practise..

but was eager to know..and has full faith though ...
and again no one whom i know has blind faith in rssb..all are their for their own reasons and own beliefs and own experiences..

and tao again u said i can share my experience..
my tao its very strange again...
i think you are among one who really wanted to get inside completely and explore things completely...

u r also eager for the final destination or really experience god ..like we all really have that urge to see god seek god...

meet god and ourself experience god..

and onething you have always consider myth abt all the books available abt mystics
i really do not understand how will you then understand anything..
u always take my words wrong
always just reply to me post with a contrast effect in it..
theres no acception of my words wid you any time..
if theres something well written from me which is really true for that you said why shud i believe you..
its all ur opinion
when in these kind of discussions where will we lead..
i think no where..


i regards my master as the guiding force of my soul..
and i believe him trust him again i said many times for various reasons
being born in RSSB family and being associated with them from past 100 years ...
is not the reason of my faith in RSSB
i have also been to various paths seen them.tried to understand them
but finally got back to RSSB
again do not think i m putting my opinion
this is my expereince but not a blind faith one..

i said have many live experiences of people who are all still alive and i know them..

and its interesting i never thought i will go for inititation,because i always had a plan for my inititation..and i was waiting for a particular time ..
but that was my immtaurity..
it just all happened..
so suddenly..
i too have a very nice beautiful experience of my own initiation but i will not share any of my experience unless until i see tao understanding me..
though my initiation experience was not spiritual but still it was a very sacred experience which even built my trust more
in my master.

you know tao i want to genuinely listen to u
but when i read all ur post i havent find the real true deserved reason for coming out of this path..
once again tao please dont think i m convincing you or want you to be on this path..
my symapthy and effection towards you is merely for that you gave so much of years to RSSB and ur a nice gentleman....

i even said that babani story mentioned was not at all true
what all happened with babani we all knew it
as i said in my post we r very well associated with his family..and still are..


and i would like to tell u one truth which i havent..you think i feel unsecure or i m afraid people leaving RSSB..nope
i again say they leave because of lack of complete understanding and these are not my own words..i m not that knowledgeable person to say this..
but these are the words from wise people and i too found enuff truth in their explanations..
and tao even my uncle who has been the secretrary one of the branch of rssb..
himself failed in following the path
and now he is also almost out of the path
he is born in the same family as i did..
but that is his complete fault and his ignorance and lack of understanding the path and the main thing he hasnt followed the path the way he shud
when one is not able to follow the path ,they way one shud ,how can he gain belief and any expereince, not at all..its not possible,


without getting visa if i keep cursing the department that they are not allowing my ticket to america theres no point in argue..
theres again a system a process involve in visa registration if i need to travel to USA,


but onething tao ..
whatever we have come to know..
that theres is a supreme power and theres a way to meet him and find him
we have come to know only from mystics..
saints
if not we wudnt have known this fact

and i said i have enuff evidence enuff reasons to believe and follow..
but again i m not here to impose my beliefs not at all, i m not here to convince anyone..
i m just here to defend ofcourse but not for my masters
but the allegations which are put on master and RSSB..
which are surely not true..
and yes tao take some more time in knowing n understaning me
perhaps the day ur fine n ok and can trust me
i invite u to india
where i can take you to some places and make meet few people where you urself can get to know the truth without depending on any mediator..

i assure you will get may be not all but many many answers you are looking for..


i really would wish who all are here who has given so much of time and life to rssb
if can trust me
everyone all together come to india
we will have a small tour all together
may be perhaps we will find something for sure..

its a thought
lets see whether this idea of going to a tour together happens ever in future..
but do not delay for long..
as i said very few people left out there..


.

tao i read the post again..in which u replied me for my previous post
if you havent yet heard abt mastana ji who was there in sirsa..

who was know as bulchistani wale mastani ji as he was actually from pakistan..

later after partition settled in india..

well tao then you guys have been no yet introduced to complete mysticism...
when i call true people and mysticism..i use these true real words a lot because i talk abt live person
just not the literature written in books,
books gives us idea and belief but real people interacting with them knowing them gives us faith and trust..

si explore about him as well...he is the only saint who challenged KAL and theres an incident abt a meeting between mastana ji and KAL

he has also drawn the picture of KAL
which yet i have to witness myself soon may be i will get chance 2 visit his place..

in sirsa
where i can see the picture drawn by him
and the tunnel where he use to meditate..

and he belong to the branch of RSSB who was inititated thru sawan singh ji,

but he was also man with spiritual power..

you know or not being RSSB disciple,
his way of spiritual journey was completely different,
his was of preaching was also competely different,
you will find many interesting facts if you get to explore more abt this saint..

who just passed away few years ago..

but do not mistake him with RAM RAHIM of sirsa..
though he is the one who is presently leading from the same group
but forcely without any permission of mastana ji
as mastana ji clearly said that after him no one will taking charge of his dera..

he just gave took look after dera and its disciple to manager saheb..who also died just couple of years ago..

so dont mistake mastana ji with ram rahim singh..

Dear Manish,
Where you are now is exactly where you are meant to be;what you are now is exactly what you are meant to be.
You are not the boss.There is a mystery that leads you and all you can do is follow whether you know it or you dont;whether you like it or you dont.That is the way it is.Just accept and love it.
Meditate until smoke comes out of your ears or dont meditate at all.When you are meant to go in you will go in nothing can stop this happening.The choice is not yours.There is no such thing as a personal success in meditation.It was never an anybodies in the first place.
To whom are you preaching when there is nobody home to listen.If you drop your story what is there?
All the best
Obed

well sorry obed it was just sharing of few sayings
but not at all preaching..i dont want to preach,
i m no one to preach
and i dont even like to preach
i m just expressing my experience and reasons..
and few sayings..
you just read it ..
if u think u like it its ok or leave it
its as simple as it is..

Dear Manish,
No need to say sorry.There is only love and acceptance.
Love
Obed

thanks obed and same 2 you

brain ur smart u always delete all my valuable posts
so no one can see and read them
but why do u do it?

Manish, I delete your preachy posts. Not long ago you said that you'd become all churchless and weren't sure what was true, and wanted another chance at being allowed to post comments here.

You have six of the last ten comments on this blog. I deleted a few that were solely preaching the Sant Mat/RSSB teachings, just like I do with people who post quotes from the Bible or whatever. This is a place to discuss, not to preach.

You should feel good that I've left up most of your recent comments. You've reverted to your preachiness, which you said you had left behind.

It's simple, Manish: this blog is called Church of the Churchless. It is for people who don't believe in any particular religion and are open to discussing evidence about what faiths are true, if any.

You're not that sort of person. So I, along with others, keep wondering why you're here. If it is to preach to the churchless, that isn't appropriate. You should start your own blog if you merely want to keep repeating dogma, or challenge why this blog exists.

i m on my way to that task brian i need time..
i already have planned to start a blog which will be kind of urs..in which we will recommend all the satsangis..initititated n non initiated..to visit churchless and go through the complete rssb critics column...
and brian i also many times said i do not want to preach and i dont preach..
and i m here for not that i have become churchless
for god sake i have not..

i m here for u for tao
and you know why?
well will repeat again
you all are initiated RSSB santsagis
who after being in it for so many years left..
so i m merely here for u ppl sake..
not to convince you at all
but try to believe you people that what you all are mentioning here abt santmat faiths are not purely true at all..

thats the only reason me being here
if not i would never ever wud have been here to waste my time..

like i said..i have been to many such blogs
but never involved there more than a day..because they werent deserve enuff
but when i see satsangis like u who have lost faith in the path which u have all followed..that really is the USP of this blog and i m here for that reason
because if ur dumb immature or silly persons
i wud have left this blog long time
but u r very smart enuff ,mature and have lot of knowledge abt spirituality as its obvious being with rssb for 30 years ..u wud have def have come to know more abt spirituality
infact
its the RSSB path which lead you 2 open this blog..

but you have different point of view regarding the path
you think it as dogma..and ritual like..
but the fact is it might seems like that but its is not at all like that under any way..

repeation of truth doesnt says that its dogma..

every father teaches his son the same way
and its been happening since ages..
now that doesnt mean its dogma..

one thing i m sure about it will take time..though but one day we will have mutual statment towards the path..

uptil what all i have been thru this blog and read statement abt rssb..
soon you will find clone like blog like urs
and everyone will find each and every answer for it..

but those were just true genuine answers some with proofs some without..
now it will be upto you guys whether to believe or not to believe.

and i have connection to this blog only for the reason that its connected to my master
and my master being mispresentated here..

so to saveguard the truth and show everyone the real true side of rssb rather than the mispresented or misunderstood side of rssb..

thats it
i m here for that simple reasons..

and abt the note i posted which u termed as to be preaching just read it brian it was just for u and tao
the answer for ur failure in santmat..and unable to understand it completly..

Manish, this is exactly my point: your goal is to convert people such as me to how you believe. That isn't the purpose of this blog. It is to discuss, converse, share ideas, support each other in churchlessness.

My experience is my experience. I'm not interested in having you explain to me why my experience is wrong. That's impossible. What I've experienced is what I've experienced. I'm the only person who knows what I know -- you sure don't.

So if you want to respond to blog posts here with your own experiences or ideas, great. But your motivation shouldn't be to change particular people. That's why you come across as sounding preachy. You are.

Again, I've warned you several times about making my blog a forum for preaching the glory of Sant Mat and RSSB. If you keep on doing that, I'll have to delete your comments as dogma spam.

Manish, you wrote:

"and i have connection to this blog only for the reason that its connected to my master and my master being mispresentated here..so to saveguard the truth and show everyone the real true side of rssb rather than the mispresented or misunderstood side of rssb.."

--Don't you think your master can take care of himself and call those into his fold who are destined for it? Why do you think it is your duty to defend his teachings? There are always critics in the world for any prominent figure or belief system. That is the way of things. That is why Gurinder Singh has recommended that satsangis avoid arguments and controversy on the internet and elsewhere. There is no end to it.

If you really understand and respect your masters teachings you will attend to your own duty of simran and bhajan and let others attend to whatever affairs they think are important, which are not of your concern from the Sant Mat point of view.

It is not your job to change the world or people's minds on this blog. Sant Mat teaches that this world is in Kals hands and he is managing it his way. Your responsibility, according to Sant Mat, is to rise above this plane of illusion and not to immerse yourself unnecessarily in worldly affairs. This is Kals world and not your true home. Why concern yourself with the thoughts of manmukhs? Surround yourself with gurmukhs and attend to your meditation.

I was initiated in 1970 by Charan Singh in person. I have attended countless satsangs, bhandaras, etc. I have been to Dera twice for one month each time. I have read most of the books, some several times. I did many hours of simran and bhajan and remained within the four vows. I have seen light and heard sound upon occasion in meditation.

Nevertheless, the time came over fifteen years ago when Sant Mat no longer was relevant for me. Perspectives and insights changed. The chameleon changed its colors and shed its skin. Sant Mat is a memory, a conceptual framework that no longer applies for me, a bubble construct that popped.

I think it is much the same for many of the ex-satsangis here. They understand the path, maybe much better than you do, but they have changed and moved on. I don't think there is anything you can say to change this. Much of what you will hear on this blog are remarks that will challenge your faith and cause you to react defensively. It is time to face this fact. It is unlikely you will change any minds here. What you are really doing is defending your own insecurity and by participating here this problem will only be increased along with your frustration. In essence, you are talking to yourself.

Your comments are taking up far too much space in the "Recent Comments" column and new comments by others that may be of interest to readers here are being lost much too quickly. Please be considerate and try to condense your remarks to a single post rather than making numerous entries. Do you think it is polite for you to dominate this forum in this way? Is your self-importance this far out of control?

I wish you well. Please follow your spiritual path with vigor and enthusiasm, but don't expect others to share your beliefs or to see things the way you do. Leave it up to Him.

well said tucson
i really liked the way you said
interesting people like you force me to stay connected in this blog..
but once again i have come to know that you people really sometimes misunderstand me..

i m not at all insecure
and yes your rite in saying it shud not be my concern to take care of this blog...
i agree...


and brain i m not at all here to convert any one into RSSB come on thats not my point ...

and why shud i try converting u ..
ur already an rssb initiate..
if ur off from rssb doesnt means ur gone..
it means ur just away
and one day will be back..

now as tucson said i will leave it to him
he very well explained me in a very respectful and true manner
this is the called of a true initiated satsangi
i m proud of tucson to be an rssb initiate.


and i will try to follow it..

but brian and tucson and tao will u do a favour for me..
its a request
wud u like to share ur experience personally with me?

thru emails? not in blogs i dont want this blog goal shud be effected?

can we share thru emails?
can i have emails of u 3 people?

flakey,

Thanks for your reply,

You stated,

"I believe the creator to be pure energy, the life force so to speak, and the Masters are those who have traveled the inner regions with the help of their Master (who is their teacher and inner guide) and they have then merged their souls (energy/life force) back into this original ocean of energy/creative force. So we need a spiritual guide who is in a human form otherwise how can we communicate with pure spirit or energy?"

---Does your belief system come from Santmat teachings?
---Have you communicated with pure spirit or energy? This communication seems, from your statement, to be very important.
---Could you write a comment, explaining how the Master helps with this communication process? Is this a mental activity, or some sort of non-mental communication?

Thanks for your continued replies,
Roger


tAo,

I have a few questions for you. They're quite personal so feel free not to answer. However, you seem to place alot on rational thought along with your extensive spiritual knowledge.

I was interested to read the other day that you've had some mystical experiences and would like you to expand a bit on these?

You seem against the guru concept, which also sits at odds with me, but I noticed you still respect the wisdom of various prophets through the ages as perhaps revealing something constant?

I understand your views of reality overlap alot with Tucson (and Brian). A oneness or formless ultimate reality which pervades all. No 'thing' exists, no subject, object, I or self; rather these are abstractified forms or manifestations of this formless oneness percieved by our limited means of perception. Tucson's analogy was of bubbles in a flowing stream - some percieving themselves as bubbles, others as part of this oneness.

Some talk of oneness as being some sort of cosmic or collective consciousness. Others try marry this collective consciousness with scientific uniform field theory (vibrating wave functions).

Dzogchen, as i understand, is a natural state or primardial awareness of all things. I would be grateful to recieve your beliefs of reality?

I also wonder if you meditate? If so, the technique you use and what you are hoping to achieve through meditation?

Thanks for any response if you around.
George

Dear Manish,

Radhasoami,

You seem to be very much concerned about your master, you are really one of the very few Gurmukhs.Keep it up, and in one of your comments you mentioned you will be going to Sirsa, if you happen to be there please see if Maharaj Charan Singh's son (Rana) is still there and try to guide him, I have heard that he has been Manmukh.

Further you mentioned every father teaches his son the same way, you are right, Master Gurinder Singh is also doing that, teaching his son.

Thanks


Juan,

Charan Singh's son Rana is a manmukh? Now THAT is interesting.

Imagine if Charan Singh had named Rana as his successor? He would likely be the current Beas master. Yet it seems he has left the path.

A potential Sant Mat master leaving the path...

He is someone I would love to meet.

Anyone have his contact details?

Roger,

Thanks for your questions.

---Does your belief system come from Santmat teachings?

I have been very much influenced by Sant Mat but also at the same time been interested in and influenced by esoteric traditions, mythology, mysticism, psychic perception and ancient tribal traditions - to name a few.

---Have you communicated with pure spirit or energy? This communication seems, from your statement, to be very important.

I am drawn to mysticism, which I perceive as a conscious direct experience with spirit and/or the energy of the cosmos and have had some interesting other worldly experiences, still I take into account the mind can play many tricks.

---Could you write a comment, explaining how the Master helps with this communication process? Is this a mental activity, or some sort of non-mental communication?

I can’t really comment on this... though I have read that when during meditation the mind catches sight of the inner Master it becomes intoxicated and no longer has any desire for worldly things.

Roger, as a follow on to the above comment, we need to have met the physical form of the Master to enable us to recognize the inner form which is projected through the Shabd. Only what I have learned not yet experienced :)

To Manish, and also to George (George please scroll down):


Manish,

I appreciate your concerns. However, I simply do not have the time this week to respond to all of your comments that you directed at me. I have some other very important business going on in my life at this time.

However, I will definitely try and help you to better understand my position, views, etc etc if you are interested, and most importantly IF you will listen and receive what I have to say without over-laying it with all of your presumptions about me as well as your RS 'baggage'. In other words, you must become open and RECEPTIVE to what I have to say and tell you about myself, without twisting it or interpreting it to fit your own mindset and agenda. If you can not do that, then you will never understand me... no matter what I say to you.

Also, I will not discuss any of this further on this site, Brian's blog. I will only do so via private e-mail. So, if you wish to hear what I have to say, and you are willing to really listen, then send a private e-mail to Brian, who will forward it on to me. Then I will contact you back directly.

I will not give you my e-mail address here, nor will Brian give it to you. You must send a message to Brians Churchless e-mail contact, from your own e-mail address, and then Brian will forward it on to me. Neither Brian nor I wish to continue this particular debate here on his Churchless site. So, send a short e-mail to Brian, and then I will get back to you in approximately a week or so.

This site here is not the place to carry on in the way you have been doing. So these are my conditions if you wish to talk to me privately and hear (and hopefully understand) what I have to offer.

And in any case, I still wish you the best. If you value the RS path, then keep with it. But don't try to bring others "back" to it. Radha Soami Mat (and the RS master) does NOT OWN people's souls, regardless of whether you think it does or not. So if YOU wish to understand where I am at, then contact me via e-mail OUTSIDE of this blog.

--------------------------------------------

George,

Thanks so much for your inquiry, and I will be glad to try to answer your questions and explain or discuss where I am at regarding those issues that you mentioned.

However, I cannot take the time to do that during the next week to ten days. So like I advised Manish, and like I suggested to you before, if you would please simply send a brief e-mail message to Brian's e-mail address (with your questions), I trust that Brian will not mind to forward that e-mail on to me (on a one-time basis).

I will then contact you and establish private e-mail correspondence with you directly. Simply send an e-mail to Brian from whatever address that you wish me to use to send a reply message back to you. We can then go from there. But please bear in mind that you probably won't hear from me for at least a week.

Also, thanks again for being such a good fellow, and I give my best wishes to you as well. I am so glad that we have come to a mutual resolution of those past petty differences. Pretty damn stupid of us I guess. Perhaps we may even meet up someday and have a drink together... and a jolly good laugh. Take care my friend... and I hope to hear from you.

I would like to say something to ALL commenters and readers. This occured to me the other day, and now seems a good time an place to post it. This is only my own opinion and does not necessarily relect Brian's feelings.

As of late I have noticed that many commenters ahve been posting quite a lot of comments and assorted material and info, explations etc. about facets of the Santmat teachings, the shabd meditation, the cosmology of inner planes, the GIHF idea, the master, and so on and so forth. I would like to say that all of that sort of stuff is not realy what this blog is about or concerned with. I kind of feel like this subject matter (and some posters) has hi-jacked this comment forum as a place to discuss Santmat. But Santmat and endless discussion of the Santmat teaching and path is not really what Church of the Churchless is all about. There are many other more interesting subjects that have been pushed into the background. Brian has written and posted so many articles about so many other things. He has occasionaly mentioned RSSB and RS issues. but Santmat and RS is not his main concern here. But it seems that some folks here assume and feel that this is a venue and fourm that is devoted soley to Santmat and RSSB. I for one, do not feel that it is appropriate that Santmat become the main foucus of this site and this forum. There is another Yahoo forum that is devoted to that sort of thing, and people who wish to discuss Santmat teachings and the RS master and the RSSB should take their discussions over there.

I feel that some commenters here are, or have become obsessed with the subject of Santmat & RSSB, to the exclusion of all else. But I don't think that is appropriate here. Sant mat is merely ONE subject among many others... that are actually much more interesting imo.

Anyway, as I said, this is all just my own opinion. And my conclusion is that I would hope that the discussions here can shift into other subjects besides Santmat and RSSB. And I think Brian would prefer that as well. Enough has been said about Santmat. People like Manish and Ashy can go to other sites like " radhasoamistudies " over at Yahoo Groups, if they wish to discuss about Santmat and RS.

Just my thoughts.

Manish,

A number of points that you might find helpful (or might not!)

RSSB is an organisation that has become a cult. It can no longer help someone to find truth because it has become the problem not the solution. Nothing personal - it happens to all organisations.

Truth is what you are seeking. But you cannot find it by following. A True Master will throw you back on yourself. There is no teaching - no path and no answer. Spirituality is a journey you undertake the destination of which is the discovery that there was no journey and no person to take the journey.

No Master gives you answers. All questions come from the mind. The purpose of a spiriual master is to take you to a place of no-mind. I don't mean to stop questioning or stop thinking - both of which are impossibnle anwyay - the most you can do is suppress the questions and the mind.

That is what followers of RSSB have done. They pretend - they reach a pseudo state of peace. Actually they are just following blindly.

The process of getting to 'truth' is the opposite - to fully express yourself. To BE yourself - without trying to be a 'good' person. To go beyond all the conditioning of your parents, teachers and society and be yourself. RSSB cannot help you because they have a set of rules.

Meditation is not required to find truth. No amount of meditation will ever take you to truth - becuuse YOU will always remain - the meditator - and YOU are the barrier to truth.

So wat is 'Truth'? Truth is to simply BE. Not be 'anything'. Let life be life and do not try to be 'holy' or 'unholy'

Zen amsters would call each other 'old bags of snad' to make sure they never fell into this trap of 'respect.

You are trying to get free - but taking the concepts of sant mat with you. Drop them - they are all nonsense - they are all lies.

Osho,

Nice comment, as usual.

Roger

OshoRobbins, I have some questions/comments for you:
You said:

"RSSB is an organisation that has become a cult."
What is an organisation and what is cult?

"Truth is what you are seeking. But you cannot find it by following. A True Master will throw you back on yourself."

How do you now what manish is seeking. How do you know he is seeking? What is seeking? And the tell me what this thing called truth is.

Are you not acting like a master yourself by this sentence? You, actually go a step beyond, since you do not leave an opening for the other to tell what he desired.You state to him what he is desiring and then offer a solution. If that is you understand of a master, then, you are a cult guru. If you got what I just told you, go back and rewrite your answer to the previous question.

This because you then go on to tell us in two paragraphs the meaning of life. And within this absolute Dasein, RSSB is cult.

"You are trying to get free - but taking the concepts of sant mat with you. Drop them - they are all nonsense - they are all lies. " Now we talk about freedom...'from what and for what?'
sant mat concepts...are lies...that is perfect..cause if I refer to brians recent post on science,,,,we can know what truth is...through deduction. So if santmat says this,,,it must be the other way...as if we are in treasure hunt..
These concepts of sant mat which are lies,,,let me ask you, are they, tricksters - its important to know - or are they,,,well in fact...tell me what is a lie.

Its must be interesting to call sant mat a cult full of lies and then expound your own discourse on life. You have with roger your first supporter as well.

I made some comments further up the texts, that i wont really repeat because what i write to you is both personal to you and a continuation of comments that i made before.
Its a comment on my comments if you may. I am sorry for the confused language,, but i took the liberty to since i assumed that a woman who reads tom robbins must like some confusion wordplay.

dear osho
u said.....
"RSSB is an organisation that has become a cult. It can no longer help someone to find truth because it has become the problem not the solution. Nothing personal - it happens to all organisations."

well we everyday live in kind of organisation,so we need not require 2 think a lot about it.
everything we gain is from some sort of organisation
even our parents are part of
family organisation
our school and college is a part of college organisation..
what ever we do proffessionally or personaly is a part of organisation,hence dont pay attention that rssb is an organisation..
It has no longer help to find truth for ""someone"" nope your completely wrong
it might havent helped you or few,but you cant talk abt all,
like i said everyone cant go to biggest schools everyone cant gain A grade..everyone cant taste success....
every child in womb doesnt born...there are chances of abortion...

so dear this is entirely ur personal opinion or may be result of few people who werent able to follow it..

and it has not become any problme..
people involve in it creates problem,
i really feel pity on you guys who are not able to understand the simple thoery of santmat and because of ur limited thinking ability or so called minds..you r misjudging and mispresenting abt the path which is and is and will be most successful for many...i do not know abt all and others bt i m sure about me and many..whom i know,personally.

and it happens to all just not because of organisation or the master..
but the reasons are its followers..
but again its very natural and it happens..
sometime ur own child becomes ur enemies..


""Truth is what you are seeking. But you cannot find it by following.""
who said ...its again ur personal opinion which is incorrect..
"A True Master will throw you back on yourself."
great atleast you understand the concept that there are true masters.
" There is no teaching - no path and no answer."
well there is no meaning and you werent able to find the answers..its all ur fault

"" Spirituality is a journey you undertake the destination of which is the discovery that there was no journey and no person to take the journey.""

again osho ur personal view,
you tried something else
you reached somewhere else
you understood something else
and you felt and experience something else..
thats why ur thouhts are nothing but something else..out of santmat or spirituality..
your journey may be a failed venture..you cant say anything abt others.journey.

No Master gives you answers.
masters are not here for q and answers.
there here for a purpose which is very well presented and made understood but due to lack of inability in following it people like you get confused..and search for answers...


""All questions come from the mind.""
yes ur rite..but now it depends on ur mind how u uses it.


"The purpose of a spiriual master is to take you to a place of no-mind. I don't mean to stop questioning or stop thinking - both of which are impossibnle anwyay - the most you can do is suppress the questions and the mind."


both are impossible i agree but thats what you have to make possible..
while at anyone death bed and death no mind will help u or guide u ..
remember that..
there is no suppressing at all..its all ur personal view..
which is comeplete incorrect..

"That is what followers of RSSB have done. They pretend - they reach a pseudo state of peace. Actually they are just following blindly."

well do u find ur self eligible or qualified in saying the above statement,


TRUST SHUD BE LIKE THE FEELING THAT A ONE YEAR OLD BABY HAS,WHEN YOU THREW HIM IN AIR,HE LAUGHS,COZ HE KNOWS YOU WILL CATCH HIM.

well theres nothing called blind..but yeah some people who follow RSSB often go BLIND..
because they wanted something else..
and where there is WANT.that means,it shows you h avent understood santmat at all.

and if trusting someone you called blind following then i agree with you and appreciate all who are blindly following it.Including me.

""""""Meditation is not required to find truth. No amount of meditation will ever take you to truth - becuuse YOU will always remain - the meditator - and YOU are the barrier to truth.

So wat is 'Truth'? Truth is to simply BE. Not be 'anything'. Let life be life and do not try to be 'holy' or 'unholy'

Zen amsters would call each other 'old bags of snad' to make sure they never fell into this trap of 'respect.

You are trying to get free - but taking the concepts of sant mat with you. Drop them - they are all nonsense - they are all lies.""""""


this above matter what ever you h ave mentioned shows ur inefficiency in understanding a path and following it..
if at all ur RS follower or else may b ur any other jealous rs critic..

its onething very strange,if we all trace history what RSSB is facing is nothing new at all,it has been happening from the day of existence of earth and its creatures called human beings..

and we always trying to think ourself as superiors and always busy in questioning and analysing which perhaps will never end..
till the death..

because no one has able to satisfy mind..
and how are all trapped in mind game has never achieved any results..


there are plently of inventions and wonders invented by humans...
so its very obivious we are also invented by some Power SOME creator...

and he exist..and because he exist we exist..

GOD is there...and i m really amazed to see people relating science with god..
oh my god!!!!!!!

they are in search of the power which created us..

perhaps we all have the ability to reach to god..
but one should know the way..

and people without being committed and determined to follow the way they have been taught from various different paths..they come and form groups

i remember a wise man sayings
that a commuinity is a gathering of more then one person where single cant decide anything but altogether can decide that nothing can be done..


Now my question TO ALL

you people are chanting the name of MIND MIND MIND and MIND

now i ask WHO MIND
whats MIND

when there are so many doubts and questionining
who will decide whose mind is correct and whos not..

now its like a man bought merc from the showroom and when because he doesnt knows to drive well he is a rash driver because of him lack of expertise he hasnt able to drive well and bump into any wall and says...who the hell merc created ..its all the owners fault this is not a good car..
now how can this silly guy blame the ownwer of the maker who is not at all responsible for..


when i saw and read these blogs abt RSSB
i m in delhi these days and going beas soon,
i just discussed abt this blog to my uncle..

and the way he replied me
wow..wow just wow
i was so happy and relaxed and felt pity on tao and brian..
that they really wasnt able to understand this path at all..

if you guys are fluent in hindi i invite you both for a discussion live..wheneveer poss fly to india...

because what all he said was just fantastic i was relaxed , and happy....because i found all my answers in it..

but i will just pen down a single example of his..

when i asked uncle why people inspite of being inititated and following the path at last come out of it..


HE SAID..LOOK ITS NATURAL..BECAUSE THEY DO NOT FOLLOW T HE WAY THE HAVE TO..
BECAUSE SANTMAT IS VERY SIMPLE AND ITS EASY TO ACHIEVE THE STATE OF GOD REALISATION BUT TO FOLLOW IT IS THE MOST CHALLENGING TASK,
BECAUSE OF THIS MATERALISTIC WORLD,AND MIND TRAPS AND BECAUSE OF NOT FOLLOWING IT COMPLETELY ONES GET PISSED OF AND FINALLY GIVE UP AND COME OUT OF THE PATH..
AND ITS HAPPENING FROM THE SO LONG TIME..

AND HE SAID LOOK SON..

IN A CAR EVEN IF A SMALL PART ISNT WORKING YOU CANNOT DRIVE A CAR..
UNLESS UNTILL ALL PARTS ARE INTACT AND THE CAR IS IN MINT CONDITION YOU CANT DRIVE IT

THATS THE WAY IN SANTMAT IF AT ALL YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO COMPLETELY ,100%, FOLLOW IT YOU CANT ACHIEVE YOUR AIM..IN SANTMAT THAT IS GOD REALISATION.
EVEN 99.99% WUDNT WORK
YOU HAVE TO ACHIEVE 100%
AND IN THESE AGE OF TECHNOLOGY,ANALYSING,LACK OF FAITH AND THE WAVES AND VIBES FROM YOUR N EAR BY SURRONDINGS WHICH ARE QUITE NEGATIVE THESE DAYS ONE MINDS TEND TO CHANGE AND SEEK THE TRUTH ELSE WHERE
WHICH HE WILL NEVER FIND BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS WITH IN.


THANKS EVERYONE
AND THANKS OSHO..

BUT OSHO YOU COMMENT AND MOST OF THE COMMENTS HERE SOMETIMES SOUNDS LIKE ALLEGATIONS..

AND ONETHING DEAR ONE MORE LAST EXAMPLE

ITS FOR PEOPLE WHO DRINK ALCOHOL
SOMETIMES WRONG INGREDIENTS MAY RESULT IN THE DEATH OF THE DRINKER...

BUT CHILL WHO CARES..DO ANYONE STOP DRINKING ALCOHOL ...NO..
SAME WITH THIS PATH..THERE WILL BE NO EFFECT IF SOME PEOPLE STARTS COMING OUT OF THIS PATH...

BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN AND RESEARCHED FEW ARE LEAVING BECAUSE OF LACK ..OF THEIR ABILITIES TO FOLLOW

AND MORE MORE N MORE AND MANY MORE ARE JOINING...AS THEIR ABLE TO SEE TRUTH AND FAITH IN THE PATH..


THANKS ONE AGAIN.

WUD BE EAGERLY WAITING FOR TAO AND BRIANS REPLY TO T HIS POST..

To all,

An older man told of how much of an influence his father was on him:

When he was a small boy during the Great Depression (the 1930's, in the USA), his father had stood him upon a table, stepped back, held out his arms to/for his boy, and indicated that the boy should jump into his arms.

The boy took some short, quick steps and did so ... as his father stepped aside and let him fall on the floor.

Although crying in pain, he still could yet see the tears in his father's eyes as he got off the floor. With great sorrow, his dad told him: "Son, never trust anybody."

Robert Paul Howard

Manish,

You again continue to make the same old mistake here. You continue to presume that the rest of us here don't "understand" the path, and that we have simply given up too soon, before reaching its goal. But you are so wrong, so incorrect. You are the one who does not understand us. And now, you go running to ask your uncle, who clearly does not understand the extent of matter either.

Its rather tiresome to see how you keep foisting your dogma as if its truth, and then you assume that others have failed because you think and believe that we "lack" or don't live up to it, or don't trust in your dogma. This is just so stupid of you Manish, but you just can't see that.

Here's some of what you said:

"when i saw and read these blogs abt RSSB [...] i just discussed abt this blog to my uncle."

-- Why? Your uncle knows nothing about us, or where we are at, or where we are coming from. He has no clue what the issues are.

"i was relaxed , and happy....because i found all my answers in it."

-- You merely THINK that you found the "answers". But thats only because you are confused and involved in searching, in seeking answers. I need no such answers. And your so-called answers, well they just do not apply to me. These "answers" are all about YOUR beliefs, about YOUR personal story, not me or mine, or Brians, or anyone elses.

"i was so happy and relaxed and felt pity on tao and brian..that they really wasnt able to understand this path at all."

-- This is exactly what I indicated above... you still assume that we do not "understand". But it is YOU who does not understand US. I understand far more about Santmat and many other paths, than you can even imagine.

"i invite you both for a discussion live..wheneveer poss fly to india."

-- No offense, but to be quite honest, thats absurd. I need to have no such "discussion", nor would I come to India for that reason. I have already spent years in India, and I have gained my own insight and wisdom. I have no interest whatsoever in discussing Santmat with RS cult believers like you or your uncle. Your uncle simply does not have any idea where I am at spiritually, nor do you.

"when i asked uncle why people inspite of being inititated and following the path at last come out of it."

-- You uncle knows nothing about other people, or why they do what they do.

"HE SAID... LOOK ITS NATURAL BECAUSE THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE WAY THEY HAVE TO."

-- There is no such "THEY HAVE TO". Your uncle sounds like an authoritarian religious fundamentalist.

"SANTMAT IS VERY SIMPLE AND ITS EASY TO ACHIEVE THE STATE OF GOD REALISATION BUT TO FOLLOW IT IS THE MOST CHALLENGING TASK,
BECAUSE OF THIS MATERALISTIC WORLD, AND MIND TRAPS AND BECAUSE OF NOT FOLLOWING IT COMPLETELY."

-- Your uncle does not know anything about other people, or their sadhana.

"THATS THE WAY IN SANTMAT. IF AT ALL YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO COMPLETELY 100% FOLLOW IT, YOU CANT ACHIEVE YOUR AIM. IN SANTMAT THAT IS GOD REALISATION."

-- That is nothing but pure dogma.

"LACK OF FAITH AND THE WAVES AND VIBES FROM YOUR NEARBY SURRONDINGS WHICH ARE QUITE NEGATIVE."

-- I have no need for his so-called "FAITH", and my surroundings are not at all "NEGATIVE".

"THESE DAYS ONES MIND TENDS TO SEEK THE TRUTH ELSEWHERE, WHICH HE WILL NEVER FIND BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS WITHIN."

-- That is merely his own very limited idea of truth. He does not know anything about other people.

"SAME WITH THIS PATH..THERE WILL BE NO EFFECT IF SOME PEOPLE STARTS COMING OUT OF THIS PATH."

-- There is also no "EFFECT" if they stay in it.

"FEW ARE LEAVING BECAUSE OF LACK OF THEIR ABILITIES TO FOLLOW AND MORE MORE N MORE AND MANY MORE ARE JOINING...AS THEYRE ABLE TO SEE TRUTH AND FAITH IN THE PATH."

-- Wrong. There is no "LACK" in our "ABILITIES". And I do not need to "FOLLOW" anything. Also, followers and joiners are not "ABLE TO SEE TRUTH". If the did, they would not be following.


Hi People,

WOW - that was funny.

I just made a few passing remarks - and opened up a whole can of worms.

MANISH - let me first address your responses.

Too long to go into all of them - but I will summarise beiefly.

(1) Please read that Tao has written in response to you - just above this response.

Manish - calm down - relax. Take it easy. Have a cup of tea.

Please understand - I have not left sant mat because I have failed to achieve anything.

On the contrary - I realized the truth and then saw how crazy the sant mat concepts are!

Anyway - forget me - even your own leader - Maharaj Guringer Singh Ji says the same thing.

I have heard it in person. "If any of you think you understand sant mat - you are mistaken.
All you have is CONCEPTS - and they are ALL INCORRECT"

This much is true - all you have is concepts.

Listen Manish - sant mat is a BELIEF system. ALL BELIEF SYSTEMS - all paths - all religions
not just sant mat - ALL of them are a TRAP.

Why? because the poor seeker is LOST and becomes EVEN more lost.

A TRUE MASTER (and yes - I do consider that someone who is 'enlightened' can help
others - and I choose to call that person a Master - or a 'teacher or truth')
will be able to HELP you to AWAKEN to truth.

Of course you first need to be OPEN and RECEPTIVE. This is what the past masters and gurus did.

They DID NOT prescribe MEDITATION as the panacea for all ills.

In fact if you read Ashthvakra - he is telling Janak that ALL SADHAHA (incl Meditation) is the
BARRIER to truth. He tells him that the DOER must disappear and cannot happen while he is DOING.

Sant mat - takes examples from past masters and USES them for it's own benefits.

The listeners to a satsang ASSUME it MUST be the truth and that's it. Game over. They are caught
in the trap.

They think they understand - they think they have the 'right path'.

When all they have is CONCEPTS.

Listen - what is SHABD? or NAAM? I mean really - what is this mystical shabd?

I put it to you - that it is just a concept!!!!

I used to do satsangs for RSSB. I was eventually banned. But I enjoyed the ride.

It was fun. And I learned so much about people and how they get trapped.

I only did it for entertainment. I sometimes go to the mic and have a discussion with
Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji. All for entertainment.

What else is there? It is all a cosmic game. That is why I say - relax and have a cup of tea.

So let me make it clear.

I have not failed in sant mat. I meditated and followed it for 30 years. I met no less than
six sant mat masters personally and had long discussions with them. I followed some of them.

My conclusion - many are sincere - but are deluded.

Sant mat will not lead to truth - I am making this as an absolute statement.

I challenge you to show me a single person who has arrived by following sant mat.

My friend, such a person does not exist.

I have even heard Gurinder saying it openly in santsang.

Wake up - will you? Everyone in sant mat - thinks the next person has attained.

Many used to think that the 'speakers' had attained. Then you realise they are no

than puppets. They read the recite. They have no experience of the truth.

Manish, Grab a brain, will ya?

Go to the Brain shop (not Brian shop - as you seemed to get Brain and Brian mixed up a lot).

Bulleh Shah says - "The rest is all talk - The ONE is the truth. The speakers (those who do satsang)
are making a lot of noise. The papers (scriptures) have confused everyone."

RSSB is come a LONG WAY from the initial days. Even 40 years ago - ONLY THE MASTER did satsang.

I remember when it was first suggested that another person give satsang. It was a shock.

Now everyone and his mother appears to be qualified to give a talk.

Anyone like me who is a little more outspoken is banned - it is all politics.

I gave a RSSB talk in one of the centres. Of the 50 people attending - about 30 came to
talk to me.

Why? Because what I say awakens them - does not send them to sleep.

Sleep means to be comfortable in your beliefs. Truth only dawns once you drop all beliefs.

Manish - in conclusion - you have NO HOPE.

You said earlier that you had changed - and was open to these discussions.

Manish - you are a BRAIN washed follower. You cannot understand what TAO and others are saying.

Why? Because you cannot listen. You have no ears. That is why I say - the best thing is a cup of tea.

Manish - I have found the truth - so has Tao - we are not seeking anything.

There is nothing to seek - There is no GOD - No Sat Purush livig in Sach Khand. It was all a nice story

made up so you could follow. I tried to get to Sach Khand. Then one day I realised there is no such place.

And also no GOD - as a separate being. There is only the ONE. Nothing else.

Realise the ONE and it is over.

Try to get to Sach Khand and you will remain trapped forever in a world of concepts.

ALXS:

In response to what you have written.

I know what Manish is seeking because it shows in his writing.

He is a follower of his own version of sant mat.

He is clearly not realised and he is seeking to get to the goal of sant mat.

You don't have to be a genius to figure this out.

Am I acting like a master by making these comments?

So anyone who makes a deduction is now a master?

I am not leaving an opening because we are not face to face. If we were - it would be
a very different discussion.

Since you dont leave any openings, and I am kindoff done with this specific post I will make my point (which is that a) A Sant Guru's answers will always appear quasi-mystical b) Before critiquing others you should you should be certain if you yourself know the truth)...

..in cubes and squares.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0

a, are you sure you yourself know the truth? I have to assume so, since you feel free to critique others. Namely, the author of this post.

So, what is the truth? Please expound it. I don't claim to know ultimate truth. But I sure do feel entitled to critique others who do make such a claim, if they aren't able to back that claim up with evidence.

If ultimate truth is mystery, or ineffable, then no claims to knowing it should be made. If ultimate truth can be known, then those who claim to know it should be able to produce some evidence of knowing.

no brian i do not know the truth. Do you?
and there is a difference between criticizing and slundering.Actually i did not even bother with you, and if i did it was definetely not personal/ you are the websmaster after all.

"If ultimate truth can be known, then those who claim to know it should be able to produce some evidence of knowing."

Evidence of knowing....evidence of knowing...you want a little piece of consiousness to be presented in an open palm?
I just leave the opening that someone may know more than me. Not just one person,,,many people may know more things than me in regards to many issues. ,,,

A,
Knowing, not knowing.
There is a third state.
Let me call it BEYOND KNOWING.

A person who lives only in knowing/unknowing will not understand.

Someone makes a statement - lets call it statement A.

A - The only way to get to Sach Khand is to meditate.

Then there is a statement B.

B - In order to meditate you need a Master who will initiate you.

Finally a statement C.

C - In order to progress you need to believe in A and B

Lets say there are three people in our universe called P1 P2 and P3.

P1 is a BELIEVER and believes in A B and C.
He is a follower and has FAITH. He thinks he KNOWS there is a Sach Khand and a Master and a Path and he is ON IT.

He appears to be ALL WISE - but in fact is knows nothing. His so-called 'knowing' is of a theory based on A B and C.

He may even give talks and satsangs on the theory of A B and C. When challenged - he will say he is just giving out the teachinigs.

He has not reached Sach Khand but he is an Eternal Hopeful - and HOPEFULLY - there will come a day when he will reach. That day is called ONE DAY. P1 lives in the eternal hope of getting to ONE DAY. However, ONE DAY never arrives. Lots of days keep going by, but the ONE DAY he seeks never comes.

P1 is a good satsangi - a believer.

Then there is P2.

P2 has something called DOUBT. This means he is a non-believer.

He is a skeptic. He asks for proof before he believes.

However there is no proof.

P1 tells him he has to meditate - and for a while he does - but does not get his proof.

Disgusted - he gives up. He remains a non-believer.

So now enter P3.

P3 neither believes - nor dis-believes.

Why? because he is aware that the whole thing is nonsense.

(1) There is no Sach Khand
(2) Hence no meditation is required
(3) Since there is no Sach Khand there is nowhere to 'get to'.

P3 does not BELIEVE. He also does not DOUBT. He simply sees beyond it.

Then something happens to P3. The ONE DAY happens.

He has an AWAKENING (I have to call it something!). The awakening gives him GLIMPSES of truth. Lets just call it ONENESS. He realises that there is no Sach Khand because that is just a CONCEPT. Hence there is no PLACE to get to.

Since there is no place - there is no path and no secret technique (meditation).

Why because there is no HERE and THERE - these are both concepts within time and space.

The TRUTH he is discovering is beyond time and space - beyond mind - beyond 'understanding'. For simplicity lets call it NOTHING.

If P3 speaks - you will not understand because you are in a world of knowing/unknowing and belief/non-belief.

You live in the mind and he speaks of that which is beyond mind.

=====================
Here is the problem.

P1 is trying to get P2 and P3 to BELIEVE.

P3 just laughs at the idea.

To P3 it is just a joke.

P2 is in the middle ground - not sure - not understanding - and yes - confused.

manish - you are a P1.

Many of the people here are not P2s.

They are P3s.

That is why it is such a joke that the P1 is trying to convince the P3.

It is impossible because P3 has transcended the need to 'know'

P3 is aware that it is nonsense and you can never convince him.

Let's see why.

P3 does not lack faith.

It is not that he has FALLEN!!!

He does not require picking up.

Something else has happened, Manish, something else.

Something that you cannot even imagine.

P3 has arrived at the place you call Sach Khand.

Except he does not call it Sach Khand.

P3 has MET God. Except he does not call her God. He might call it the ONE.

ONE means there is no other. No YOU and no ME. No SOUL that has to MERGE. These are all CONCEPTS created within the mind.

They are MAPS of reality and a MAP is NEVER reality - just a representation that is confusing the hell out of people.

A Map is flat - and has a scale. It has nothing to do with the actual territory. It just represents it. It is not similar to it.

You cannot get an idea of the mountains by looking at a map of the mountains.

P3 has dropped the mind. Hence he does not BELIEVE and does not DOUBT. Neither.

The Buddha FAILED to FIND what he was looking for. In that FAILURE he realised the truth: that was he was looking for does not exist. A great peace came over him. He realised that he is the ONE - there is nothing else.

This is not an ATTAINMENT or an ACHIEVEMENT. It is the dropping of ALL DESIRE to attain. There is nothing to attain, because attainment happens only in duality.

P1 is trying to attain. P2 is has given up.

P3 is not even trying - not because he has failed - but because he has realised that the statements A B and C are simply not true.

A B and C are works of fiction. P3 does not doubt them = he simply sees through them and has a good laugh.

Manish - you cannot understand P3. It is beyond you. You are stuck in the state of a P1. You needs to STOP BELIEVING if you ever want to escape the trap. But you cannot because BELIEF is all you know. It is your life.

And those who believe will always remain blind because the belief will keep them blind. They cannot find truth because they are not seeking it - they want the truth to fit into their belief! This will never happen.

P1 will create his own experiences and that will become his proof. The experiences are DELUSION. Please read Faqir Chand - the unknowing sage.

Truth is BEYOND experience. Experience requires TWO. There is only ONE. You can never experience the ONE or say anything about it.

OshoRobbins, nice analysis. I like how you described P1, P2, and P3. Yes, going beyond knowing and not-knowing, finding the common ground between them -- that seems like a good place to be.

OshoRobbins,

Beautifully said. You totally nailed it in your two posts above. You put it all in perspective so well. You have explained this pivotal issue so much simpler, better, and more concisely than I. Thanks. It was a real pleasure to read your comments, and the clarity they contain and express. Well done my friend.

Osho,

Your P1-P3 analogy is useful shorthand, but I question the way P3 is presented.

P1 seems to be a believer, P2 a skeptic and P3 an enlightened sort.

To me though, P3 is in perilous danger of the self-delusion attributed to P1, namely claiming the truth without objective evidence.

You say "P3 neither believes - nor dis-believes. Why? because he is aware that the whole thing is nonsense."
-- How is he 'aware'? Since there is no objective explanation for this awareness, what is different from this and the subjective experience of P1?

P3 almost appears to be instantly blessed with an enlightened awakening, from which he can see all and judge 'nonsense' or not.

I don't believe anyone knows the Truth and if such a person professes to do so then he must provide objective evidence for this, otherwise P3 is no different to P1 in claiming the Truth in an unsopported subjective manner.

"P3 does not BELIEVE. He also does not DOUBT. He simply sees beyond it. Then something happens to P3. The ONE DAY happens. He has an AWAKENING (I have to call it something!). The awakening gives him GLIMPSES of truth."
-- Again, this seems a subjective experience; how does it differ from the validity of P1's subjective experience?

George, I liked Osho's comment. I also like yours. You raise some good points about the difference, if any, between P1 and P3. I agree that there doesn't seem to be any objective way of telling the difference between them.

Philosophically, I think the root nature of the universe/cosmos is more likely to be beyond our human ability to comprehend it, than to be within the neat and tidy confines of a P1 understanding. So in this sense I liked the P3 "none of the above" attitude.

However, like you said, claiming an awakening seemingly makes a P3 guy into a knower. He knows that there is nothing to know, supposedly, but this is still a knowing, isn't it?

yes precisely Brian, the logic seems slightly circular.

If P3 claims knowledge, even if it is knowledge of nothing, what supports this belief?

Well, George, I suspect it is supported in the same fashion as my semi-frequent insights into the nature of it all. Intuition. A feeling of rightness. An "aha!" or "yes!" sensation.

Nothing wrong with that. It certainly is a valid feeling, just as my feeling "Yum, I love strawberries" is valid. But only for me. Not as a statement about the nature of the cosmos.

Yes Brian, and to take it further i suspect P1's appreciation of the truth is supported by some sort of direct mystical experience or intuition.

Perhaps an alternative categorisation system:
A1 is believer without evidence (faith)
A2 is believer with subjective evidence (mystic)
A3 is believe with objective evidence (science)

Seems P1 and P3 are both variants of A2.

From an RS viewpoint, it seems there are certain satsangis and ex-satangis who fall into category A1, while others fall into A2. A1 would seem more of religious type belief with scripture, teachings and guru interprerations. A2 would seem more of a mystical type who use RS but believe there are other valid paths too.

"P3 almost appears to be instantly blessed with an enlightened awakening, from which he can see all and judge 'nonsense' or not."

"P3 does not BELIEVE. He also does not DOUBT. He simply sees beyond it. Then something happens to P3. The ONE DAY happens. He has an AWAKENING (I have to call it something!). The awakening gives him GLIMPSES of truth."

---I can see some dualism in the "instantly blessed with an enlightened awakening" statement.
---Same for, "the awakening gives him GLIMPSES of truth" ..........
---Nothing wrong with P3 coming to a dualist blog and commenting dualisticly.
---dualisticly...hmmm....did I spell that right?


Dear George, and Brian, and any other interested readers:

As I indicated above, I thought OshoRobbin's comments were rather right on the mark.

But thats probably because I have previously (entirely on my own) come to a more or less identical conclusion, or a kind of recognition or a so-called 'realization', about the nature and failing of RS method, just as OshoRobbins has.

But I also see that OshoRobbin's explanation about that could be interpreted slightly differently, depending on the angle from which one views Santmat & RS (RS and RS believers being the specific model and example that Osho was using as the basis and substance of his critique).

So in order to better clarify OshoRobbin's position, I will list (with some editing and my own inserts) what I feel are his more significant and applicable statements (imo) again here:


"Knowing, not knowing.

There is [also] a third state.
...call it BEYOND KNOWING.

A - The only way to get to Sach Khand is to meditate.
B - In order to meditate you need a Master who will initiate you.
C - In order to progress you need to believe in A and B


P1 is a BELIEVER and believes in A B and C.
He is a follower and has FAITH.

His so-called 'knowing' is of a theory based on A B and C. He may even give talks and satsangs on the theory of A B and C.

[However} When challenged - he will say he is just giving out the teachinigs.

He has not reached Sach Khand but... P1 lives in the eternal hope of getting to [sach khand]. However, [that day] never arrives... never comes.

[Yet] P1 is a good satsangi - a believer.

Then there is [also] P2. P2 has something called DOUBT. This means he is a non-believer... a skeptic. He asks for proof before he believes. However there is no proof.

P1 tells him [P2] that he has to meditate - and for a while he does - but [still] does not get his proof. Disgusted - he gives up. [Thus] He remains a non-believer.

So now enter P3. P3 neither believes - nor dis-believes. He is aware that:
(1) There is no Sach Khand
(2) Hence no meditation is required
(3) Since there is no Sach Khand there is nowhere to 'get to'.

P3 does not BELIEVE. He also does not DOUBT. He simply sees beyond

P3 realises that there is no Sach Khand because [sach khand] is just a CONCEPT. Hence [in reality] there is no PLACE to get to. Since there is no place - there is [also] no [need for a] path and no [need for any] meditation.

There is no HERE and THERE - these are both concepts within time and space.

He is discovering [what] is beyond time and space - beyond mind - beyond 'understanding'.

P3 speaks - [but] you [may] not understand [if] you [remain in the duality] of knowing/unknowing and belief/non-belief. [If you] live in the mind [then you cannot recognise] that which is beyond mind.

P1 is trying to get P2 and P3 to BELIEVE.

[However] P3 [has no need to believe]. To P3 it is just [all concepts].

[About P2]:

P2 is in the middle ground - not sure - not understanding - confused.

Manish - [is a] P1.

[Some] of the people here are not P2s. They are P3s.

it is [actually] a [kind of] joke that the P1 is trying to convince the P3.

[But] it is impossible because P3 has transcended [any] need to [believe].

P3 is aware that [beliefs and concepts are irrelevant] and [so] you can never convince him [to believe].

P3 does not lack faith. He does not require [saving]. P3 [recognioses that] Sach Khand [can only be here and now, or not at all]. Except he does not call it Sach Khand.

P3 has recognised] the ONE. ONE means there is no other. No SOUL that has to MERGE. These are all [mere] CONCEPTS created within the mind.

They are [mere] MAPS of reality and a MAP is [only a concept, not reality] - just a representation that [can very well be] confusing.

P3 [is not trying to achieve anything via] the mind. Hence he [has no need to] BELIEVE and [also] does not [feel] DOUBT.

The Buddha FAILED to FIND what he was looking for. [Because] in that [very] FAILURE he [understood] the truth [of the matter]: that what [he thought that] he was looking for [was only an idea in the mind, a form of duality, and so the search was in fact entirely unnecessary].

He [the Buddha] realised that he [cannot be anything other than] the ONE - [and that] there is nothing else.

This is not an ATTAINMENT or an ACHIEVEMENT. It is [simply] the [instantaneous and effortless] dropping [away] of ALL DESIRE to attain. There is nothing to attain, because attainment happens only in duality.

P1 is trying to attain [something that he believes is yet to be attained].

P2 is [not sure yet about what is true, or what is not true].

P3 is not even trying - not because he has failed - but because he has realised [recognised] that those statements A, B, and C, are [irrelevant]. [To P3 the ideas of] A B and C are [all totally unnecessary assumptions... they are] fictions.

P3 does not doubt them. [As there is no need to doubt them.] He simply sees through them and [so he sees the ultimate irrelevancy of them].

Manish cannot understand P3. It is beyond [him]. [Manish is] stuck [firmly and willingly] in the state of a P1.

[Until Manish can let gop of his need to BELIEVE [he cannot] escape the trap of duality. But [he] cannot, because BELIEF is all he knows. It is [bound up with his very identity].

And those who believe will always remain blind because the belief will keep them blind.

They cannot find truth, because they are not [truly] seeking [the real truth]. {rather] they want the truth to fit into THEIR BELIEFS. [But actual truth (whatever it may be) can never conform to mere beliefs.]

P1 will create his own experiences and that will become his [supposed] proof. The experiences are [in a sense] DELUSION.

[See] Faqir Chand [says in the book] The Unknowing Gage.

Truth [itself] is BEYOND [mere] experience. Experience requires TWO. [In truth] there is only ONE.

You can [not ever entirely] "experience" the ONE [because the ONE is absolute totality, absolute non-duality, and so there is no 'other' to be able to "experience" it.]"


tAo,

Thanks for the input.

Just a few issues that are unclear to me.

1) I understand that each satsangi will have a unique and subjective experience (some having none).

Thus, it would seem quite possible that the P1 person could have a P3 experience.

In fact, how has P3 achieved at his state of enlightenment? On the RS path, on another path or on no path? And what evidence is there to support P3's enlightenment as compared to P1's?

2) I understand the P3's enlightenment is basically a monistic recognition, i.e. oneness.

But is this monism not precisely the goal of RS and most other mystic traditions, which is to unite with the One?

I see alot of overlap, rather than difference.


Well,

what osho Robbins just described,,,

I still have issues, (since the church of the churchless seems to swimming in the waters of deconstruction).

What does sach khand mean
what does meditation mean

I feel that what you have described for P3, his (P3's) meditation is this exact thing i.e:

"... P3 neither believes - nor dis-believes. He is aware that:
(1) There is no Sach Khand
(2) Hence no meditation is required
(3) Since there is no Sach Khand there is nowhere to 'get to'..."
This thus is P3's dialogismos/meditation. Do you see?

And what is P3's 'sachkhand'?
This:
" P3 realises that there is no Sach Khand because [sach khand] is just a CONCEPT. Hence [in reality] there is no PLACE to get to. Since there is no place - there is [also] no [need for a] path and no [need for any] meditation.

There is no HERE and THERE - these are both concepts within time and space.

He is discovering [what] is beyond time and space - beyond mind - beyond 'understanding'."

And at the end,,,the cherry on top,,,the totally 'un-scientific argument' (what is scientific anyway?),,,the same argument that you many of you accuse the guru's comes:

"P3 speaks - [but] you [may] not understand [if] you [remain in the duality] of knowing/unknowing and belief/non-belief. [If you] live in the mind [then you cannot recognise] that which is beyond mind."

Oh WebGuru OshoRobbins,,,and your webdisciples. Tell me more,,,

"He [the Buddha] realised that he [cannot be anything other than] the ONE - [and that] there is nothing else."

How on earth do you know what the buddha realised 2,500 years ago? Through the hundreds of thousand of secondary/third/fourth/fifth/sixth/seventh/twentieth etc. texts?
Did you talk to him?
You think the realised the one? That was His teachings? Are you sure that was his methods and you cite him? And then you cite Faqir Chand who wrote books exclusvily on the 'inner' dimensions. I wont bother to find them for you. A man who revered sawan, who had a guru, who meditate with a specific way most of his life, who talked abou the shabd. You take one line and place it in your text..Ok..I will accept it. It seems you know what you are talking about. It seems you are certain. It appears you solved the riddle. In this non-duality 30,000 children in Africa dont really, realy die every day,,its our dual mind that perceives them as such. Between Osho and Tom Robbins it seems that you have grasped something. So it seems your are a webbudda a webosho a webtao and beyond,,,

A cyberspace webenlightment.

I dont know the truth...all I know is that these are all just words that appear in front of a screen,,,which you are reading and they in turn may or may not have a mental reaction from the readers part, which may or may not lead to physical action..
can you avoid non-duality in pursuit of something you love?

Thats all from me regarding this issue.

(Dont take what I wrote as accusing anyone of anything,,take it as feedback).


Dear George,

You said/asked:

"Just a few issues that are unclear to me."

"1) I understand that each satsangi will have a unique and subjective experience (some having none). Thus, it would seem quite possible that the P1 person could have a P3 experience."

-- I suppose that is possible, but, I'm not sure that (in OshoRobbins example) the P3 has any specfic "experience". Its more along the lines of an insight, than an actual "experience". He simply recognises the inhrent fallacy of the suppositions/beliefs, and thus the efforts, of the P1 person.

"In fact, how has P3 achieved at his state of enlightenment?"

-- I don't know that he actually has any so-called "enlightenment". For whats its worth, I myself do not subscribe to a supposed "enlightenment", of which I consider to be merely a myth. To delve more and deeper into that issue, I would highly recommend and suggest checking into what U.G. Krishnamurti had to say about it, most of which I generally agree with.

"On the RS path, on another path or on no path?"

-- I cannot really say, as that was Osho's example, and not mine. However, I very much doubt it would be from the RS path. It could be a result of another path, but more likely it would be from direct insight alone.

"And what evidence is there to support P3's enlightenment as compared to P1's?"

-- As I indicated above, my own view and feeling is that P3 is not really having any, or claiming any, so-called "enlightenment". I don't even think that he (OshoRobbins) mentioned the word.

Also, more importantly, There is no indication that P1 has any so-called "enlightenemt" at all. P1 is merely a believer, a follower of the path and its dogma, guru, etc. Where was it mentioned that P1 has any sort of actual "enlightenment"?

"2) I understand the P3's enlightenment is basically a monistic recognition, i.e. oneness."

-- Again, I would not call it an "enlightenment". And yes, I would think of it more an insight or a recognition, but of the fact that the entire premise of the path is faulty. The "ONE" or "oneness" refers more to advaita (non-duality) than monism. Monism and non-duality appear to be similar, but are very different in approach. But yes, as you say, it is simply a "recognition" or deep direct insight... not the traditional so-called "enlightenment"

"But is this monism not precisely the goal of RS and most other mystic traditions, which is to unite with the One?"

-- Well I suppose that is true, in a sense. But in RS etc, it is a "goal" that is the object of seeking and belief and effort and method, rather than simply the instantaneous recognition/insight that all such "seeking and belief and effort and method" etc, is fruitless and unnecessary and misleading.... which was OshoRobbins point.

"I see alot of overlap, rather than difference."

-- I understand that, from some individual's points of view that may seem to be true, but I think its not accurate. There is (imo) no similarity at all between the premise, method, beliefs, dogma, effort, and goal of the RS path... as compared to that which OshoRobbins is pointing towards.

I hope my comments and opinions help and shed some light on this matter for you George. Your questions and points are always good.

A,

You said:

"I still have issues,
What does sach khand mean
what does meditation mean"

-- Its not quite clear what you are getting at. Do mean to say, what is the definition of these ("sach khand" and "meditation")?? If you are asking for a simple definition/meaning, then you can find that elsewhere and in the Santmat & RS literature. If you are aiming at something else, then please clarify what that might be.

"I feel that what you have described for P3, his (P3's) meditation is this exact thing [...] This thus is P3's dialogismos/meditation. Do you see?"

-- No, do not see what your point is at all. Thats probably because (imo) P3 has NO such "meditation"... not as you have stated and are trying to present.

"And what is P3's 'sachkhand'?"

-- There is none. As far as I can see in OshoRobbins example, P3 has no "sach khand", nor does P3 believe in the existance of any "sach khand".

" This: P3 realises that there is no Sach Khand because [sach khand] is just a CONCEPT. Hence [in reality] there is no PLACE to get to. Since there is no place - there is [also] no [need for a] path and no [need for any] meditation."

-- Yes, that is exactly what I indicated just above.

"And at the end [...] the totally 'un-scientific argument' (what is scientific anyway?), the same argument that you many of you accuse the guru's comes:"

"P3 speaks - [but] you [may] not understand [if] you [remain in the duality] of knowing/unknowing and belief/non-belief. [If you] live in the mind [then you cannot recognise] that which is beyond mind."

-- Well, fyi, that is NOT at all what the gurus are accused of. The gurus (not all gurus mind you) are accused of exhibiting and promoting dogma and methods and effort and a goal, based upon a dualistic belief system, not upon direct recognition of inherent and effortless non-duality. And if you don't understand what "scientific" is, then you ought to go educate yourself, before making comments that have no bearing on the issue.

"Oh WebGuru OshoRobbins,,,and your webdisciples."

-- Cheap sarcasm and ridicule will get you nowhere.

"How on earth do you know what the buddha realised 2,500 years ago?"

-- It is not directly known. But much can be understood, ascertained, and attributed to him by the extant records of what he said and taught. That generally indicates what he had realised.

"You think he realised the one? That was His teachings? Are you sure that was his methods?"

-- Again... much can indeed be understood, ascertained, and attributed to Gautama, Sakyamuni Buddha by the extant records of what he said and taught. That generally indicates what he had realised.

"And then you cite Faqir Chand who wrote books exclusvily on the 'inner' dimensions."

-- So what? Faqir Chand dismissed much of the RS dogma as myths, as well.

Ok..I will accept it. [...] It appears you solved the riddle. In this non-duality 30,000 children in Africa dont really, realy die every day,,its our dual mind that perceives them as such."

-- That is NOT what is said, inferred, or implied by non-duality. Go study advaita before trying to link non-duality with dying children in Africa. There is no connection.

The starvation and dying in Africa is a human tradgedy of great proportion... of which no doubt all of us here have great compassion towards. So for you to attempt to imply that non-duality equals no compassion is a totally flawed and twisted and bogus interpretation and insinuation. AND... you apparently do NOT understand non-duality.

"it seems your are a webbudda a webosho a webtao and beyond A cyberspace webenlightment."

-- Sarcasm and ridicule will get you nowhere.... it just shows your antagonism and what you are really up to here.

"I dont know the truth...all I know is that these are all just words that appear in front of a screen,,,which you are reading and they in turn may or may not have a mental reaction from the readers part, which may or may not lead to physical action..can you avoid non-duality in pursuit of something you love?"

I have no idea what you are trying to say. But you seem rather confused and somewhat irrational. Perhaps you should try to articulate your point and meaning better.


tAo

You really do not make any sense. SO you analysed my post
What is your point exactly?

A,

You responded with: "SO you analysed my post
What is your point exactly?"

-- My point is this... That perhaps you might try to articulate and explain YOUR points and YOUR meanings a little better.

Because, you seem a bit confused, and its difficult to tell what YOUR point really is, and what it is over-all that YOU are trying to say in your previous comments.

So again, you had said the following:

"I still have issues,
What does sach khand mean
what does meditation mean"

-- Its not quite clear what you are getting at. Do you mean to say, what is the definition of these ("sach khand" and "meditation")?? If you are asking for a simple definition/meaning of those terms, then you can find that elsewhere and in the Santmat & RS literature. If you are aiming at something else, then please DO clarify what that might be.

"I feel that what you have described for P3, his (P3's) meditation is this exact thing [...] This thus is P3's dialogismos/meditation. Do you see?"

-- No, I do not see what your point is at all. And that's probably because (imo) P3 has NO such "meditation"... not as you have stated and are trying to propose.

"And what is P3's 'sachkhand'?"

-- There is none. As far as I can see in OshoRobbins example, P3 has no "sach khand", nor does P3 believe in the existance of any "sach khand".

" This: P3 realises that there is no Sach Khand because [sach khand] is just a CONCEPT. Hence [in reality] there is no PLACE to get to. Since there is no place - there is [also] no [need for a] path and no [need for any] meditation."

-- Yes, and that is exactly what I indicated just above.

"And at the end [...] the totally 'un-scientific argument' (what is scientific anyway?), the same argument that you many of you accuse the guru's comes:"

"P3 speaks - [but] you [may] not understand [if] you [remain in the duality] of knowing/unknowing and belief/non-belief. [If you] live in the mind [then you cannot recognise] that which is beyond mind."

-- Well, fyi, that is NOT at all what the gurus are accused of. The gurus (not all gurus mind you) are accused of exhibiting and promoting dogma and methods and effort and a goal, based upon a dualistic belief system, not upon direct recognition of inherent and effortless non-duality. And if you don't understand what "scientific" is, then you ought to go educate yourself, before making comments that have no bearing on the issue.

"Oh WebGuru OshoRobbins,,,and your webdisciples."

-- Cheap sarcasm and ridicule will get you nowhere.

"How on earth do you know what the buddha realised 2,500 years ago?"

-- It is not directly known. But much can be understood, ascertained, and attributed to him by the extant records of what he said and taught. That generally indicates what he had realised.

"You think he realised the one? That was His teachings? Are you sure that was his methods?"

-- Again... much can indeed be understood, ascertained, and attributed to Gautama, Sakyamuni Buddha by the extant records of what he said and taught. That generally indicates what he had realised.

"And then you cite Faqir Chand who wrote books exclusvily on the 'inner' dimensions."

-- So what? Faqir Chand dismissed much of the RS dogma as myths, as well.

Ok..I will accept it. [...] It appears you solved the riddle. In this non-duality 30,000 children in Africa dont really, realy die every day,,its our dual mind that perceives them as such."

-- That is NOT what is said, inferred, or implied by non-duality. Go study advaita before trying to link non-duality with dying children in Africa. There is no connection.

The starvation and dying in Africa is a human tradgedy of great proportion... of which no doubt all of us here have great compassion towards. So for you to attempt to imply that non-duality equals no compassion is a totally flawed and twisted and bogus interpretation and insinuation. AND... you apparently do NOT understand non-duality.

"it seems your are a webbudda a webosho a webtao and beyond A cyberspace webenlightment."

-- Sarcasm and ridicule will get you nowhere.... it just shows your antagonism and what you are really up to here.

"I dont know the truth...all I know is that these are all just words that appear in front of a screen,,,which you are reading and they in turn may or may not have a mental reaction from the readers part, which may or may not lead to physical action..can you avoid non-duality in pursuit of something you love?"

I have no idea what you are trying to say. But you seem rather confused and somewhat irrational. Perhaps you should try to articulate your point and meaning better.

tAo,

Well answered, but I still do wonder how P3 gets equipped with this 'direct insight'.

For example, is such a P3 person alleged to be:
a) born with 'direct insight',
b) develop it over time by following some path, or
c) gain it in an instant through some experience?

I must also say that i think there are some very fine linguistic distinctions being made between concepts like 'monism' and 'non-duality', and also 'enlightenment' and 'direct insight (recognition)'. However, I do take your point that there are subtle, but very real, differences that need to be appreciated. I will need to read up a bit more and will check out U.G. Krishnamurti.


P3 - how does he get his insight?

Well - he doesn't.

Just as the Buddha did not DO anything to get his.

The Buddha GAVE UP.

But a REAL giving up - not a fake one.

When you give up - something happens - of its own accord.

What happens is - insight comes.

You do not bring it - there is no effort - no path - no method.

I am simply saying - no effort is required.


If you follow any method that requires you to MEDITATE or PRAY
or RECITE or CHANT - or DO ANYTHING at all. The method will keep
you trapped in SEEKING THE GOAL.

That very seeking - will keep you in duality.

The harder you try - the further you get.

Why is this?

Because effort IS THE EGO - nothing else.

Effort comes from YOU and YOU are the BARRIER.

If YOU STOP the effort - the trying - the meditation - then

YOU will disappear. In the same moment - truth will dawn.

You can call this truth by many names. It is your choice.

Words, names - these are all the play of the mind.

You can call it God, Enlightenment, Nirvana, Truth, Oneness....

I may call it Enlightenment - I may say I am enlightened.

But in the next breath I may say there is no such thing as 'enlightenment'

because - it is not an achievement and there is nobody to get enlightened.

Is it really so difficult to understand?

ANYTHING that YOU achieve will be within DUALITY simply because there was
a YOU who achieved it.

As for me - let me make it clear.

I have achieved NOTHING - hence I expended no effort in getting to 'nothing'.

Your problem is that you think nothing is 'something'.

Hence you want it - the desire is created and you run after it.

I am saying do not run. Just relax. Have a cup of tea.


The entire TRAP is created in the mind and by the mind.

It's really simple.

There is NO SACH KHAND. There is NO SAT PURUSH. There are
NO REGIONS. There are NO 'LORDS oF EACH REGION.'

You do not need to recite five words - which represent the NAMES
of the FIVE LORDS - as a sort of password to get to the next region.

Can't you see - this is a fairy tale - a cosmic joke.

ANYONE who tells you any form of fairy tale is deluded.

If you follow them - you will remain in duality.

RS is such a fairy tale.

Just because a lot of people believe the fairy tale - does not make it true.

A lot of children believe in Santa Claus - but that does not make him real.

How is P3 different from P1?

It is simple.

P1 has not even begun the journey - but is trying.

P3 knows there is no journey and no 'person' to walk it.

P3 is an ordinary person - and does not need to claim anything as there is
nothing to claim.

P3 is just having a cup of tea - enjoying the scenery around him.

P1 is very serious and wants to 'get there fast' and 'please his Guru...
by doing lots of meditaiton and seva.'

OshoRobbins aint no Buddha

Nor has he 'given up' anything

He is so fast attached to his own idea of enlightenment, he is hardly 'enlightened' at all, nullifying nonentity as if he knows one P from the next.

Easy to say a whole bunch of clever P brained Buddha like stuff without an ounce of experience or understanding

P1, P2, P3, P0

P's without pods, P's in a pool of self denied delirium

Don't have a clue this OshoRobbins fool

just like his churchified churchless cult followers he chooses to chide and caress with his chaste choosiness

Be the nothing first, then sprout all your highly evolved nothingness, you don't fool no one with such self aggrandized non nullified nonentity

such clever dicks these yankee doodle daydream dandy self evolved guru's, sprouting like pansies how prolifically perfect they are.

Ashtana,

You have a homework assignment.

Read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Having-No-Head-Rediscovery-Obvious/dp/1878019198/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1243660554&sr=8-1#

I'm tired of your punk-ass attitude. You think you know what I'm all about. Well you're clueless. Don't come back to this blog until you have completed your assignment.

Love,
God

That's right. It's me, the Great Almighty, and don't doubt it for a minute or I'll smite your sorry punk ass. Is it worth the chance? Huh punk?

OshoRobbins,

Your comment was again quite well said, with poignant simplicity and clarity. So right on.


Ashtana,

Its getting time for you to go bye-bye.

Your attitude totally sucks.
You make personally derogatory remarks.
And your reasoning... well, there is none.

The only thing that allows you to stay here at all is because everything you say reveals just how incredibly twisted and crazed religious cultists like you really are. I have never seen anyone say so much that says so little.

I mean, do you actually enjoy playing the part of the village idiot here? It sure doesn't speak and reflect very well for the teachings of Santmat and RS either.


Osho,

Wonderful example.

I do think there is an additional state as tAo points out. (There are 4 regions for a two set overlapping Venn diagram.) I would add one additional person (P4) or category (A4) which would correspond to transcendence of any hierarchy, mystical tradition, or assertion of individuated self. tAo calls it "beyond knowing."

Questioning implies un-knowing and certainty implies knowing. Perhaps when the RS Master says "don't question", one is best to look at it as a state "beyond knowing" rather than a state of being forbidden. Being responsible to those energies in which we find ourselves is being in a state beyond knowing - we just do. If a baby is hungry, feed it. If the dishes are dirty, clean them. No thought beyond the action and the form. Being worried about starving babies in Africa is reactionary not responsible. Knowing there are starving babies and being in a position to do something about it and doing it is responsible and comes from genuine compassion for "the other." There is no longer separation between you (me) when we are in union with both knowing and unknowing. We each act according to our position in this life stream. It is so very easy to look at "don't question" as forbidding an action when it may best be interpreted as a description of the state of mind beyond knowing.

Respects,

Osho,

I enjoyed your above comment too.

Something tells me that P3, thinks that P is just a letter, and 3 is just a number.

Roger

Ashy,

Your demeanor is deplorable and frankly you are undeserving of my help, but if you will look at the book page more closely you will find a link to used copies of the book. In my omniscience I was able to find a source for the book that saves you money.

Your loving pal,
God

"Perhaps when the RS Master says "don't question", one is best to look at it as a state "beyond knowing" rather than a state of being forbidden. Being responsible to those energies in which we find ourselves is being in a state beyond knowing - we just do."

---So, which RS Master interprets "don't question" as presented above? Where can One find his exact written interpretation?
---What are these energies, that One is supposedly required to be responsible for?
---What if One is being responsible, and One doesn't find this state of "beyond" knowing? Is One kinda screwed?
---Nothing wrong with someone interpreting a state of mind that is beyond unknowing. This would make interesting conversation. If it comes from a RS master, or a girl chopping wood, its OK.

tAo, you're correct about why Ashy's comments get left up for a while. I've got a friend who used to like to say, "Nobody's life is ever completely wasted; they can always serve as a horrible example for others."

Such is Ashy's purpose on this blog. He is a marvelous recruitment tool for churchlessness, showing as he does the vacuity of fundamentalism -- whether East or West. Like you said, he repeats the same meaninglessness, because there is no substance behind him.

I enjoy leaving a few of his comments up, and deleting the rant'iest of them. A couple of examples of non-sensical fundamentalism are fine, but not more than that.

Roger asked:

---So, which RS Master interprets "don't question" as presented above? Where can One find his exact written interpretation?

The master(s) essentially say sit down, still the mind, and meditate. All other questions simply produce discursive exposition by the master(s). Only the master can elucidate if he/she means what is implied by "don't question." If one wishes evidence for a subjective unquestioning state of mind which the master is purported to have, then as best as I know, there is none.

---What are these energies, that One is supposedly required to be responsible for?

The energies are any energy that one is familiar with, heat, light, sound, etc., as well as those which are more subjective such as those which exist within the archetypes or more fundamentally, the quantum states of matter. When the inner states of mind are in accordance with the present state of your being in the world, this is being responsible. It is not a requirement that we be in this condition. In fact, most of the time I find myself more reactive which is a state of stress and discomfort which is a state of struggling against the world rather than flowing with it.

---What if One is being responsible, and One doesn't find this state of "beyond" knowing? Is One kinda screwed?

No, this is a different kind of responsibility. For example, we can do good deeds (perform service), which is certainly a socially responsible thing to do, but if as a consequence we are somehow displeased and unhappy that we are not being recognized or rewarded for our action, then we are not truely being responsible. To be "responsible" coincides with the state of "beyond knowing." As for being screwed, it is really a state of mind reacting to the situation in which it finds itself and perhaps the body. I think this is consistent with karmaless action. Essentially, all the energy states of the mind and body that drive us to being and action work "transparently" to the energies in the world. At least this is how I interpret "enlightenment." It is simply "be here now." To be screwed is to hold on to some idea of self and that this self can somehow be screwed. So no, one is not screwed when one is being responsively open to new experience and change and eventually dissolution. I mean, if you think about it, we're all screwed in the reactionary sense for just having been borne. But if one can turn the idea around and ride the wave, peace fills the body and mind and the world isn't a hostile place to be at all. At least this is how my small little bouts of experience are indicating this "spiritual" thing works when working correctly. The world really is sublimely beautiful (or horribly ugly) within this bounded awareness. The experiences eventually will dissolve but if one can disolve one's mental image of the self along with the body's decay, the beauty is there and enjoyable.

---Nothing wrong with someone interpreting a state of mind that is beyond unknowing. This would make interesting conversation. If it comes from a RS master, or a girl chopping wood, its OK.

Well, beyond knowing is beyond knowing and though conversation can be held about it from the periphery within states of knowing and unknowing, the conversation is, and will always be, a peripheral epiphenomena (i.e. secondary in nature).

Respects,

Jayme, you said: "I do think there is an additional state as tAo points out. tAo calls it "beyond knowing."

-- I did'nt say that "there is an additional state". As least I don't recollect ever saying that... and also I don't know what you mean by "an additional state", and also I don't see what is meant by "beyond knowing". I think it was OshoRobbins who had said or indicated something like that.

The phrase "beyond knowing" doesn't make sense to me. Unless your use of "beyond knowing" is meant as the 'unknowable'.

So there seems to be some confusion here. And I believe it was OshoRobbins who mentioned that, not I.

I myself just don't see any "state" of so-called "beyond knowing". Imo, there are only these: the known, the unknown, and the unknowable. So when you say "beyond knowing" do you mean the 'unknowable'? It isn't a "state"... and unlike the 'unknown' (which could become known), the 'unknowable' is that which can never be known. So in this case, its important to define or clarify what it is that you are referring to when you say "beyond knowing".

Thanks for correcting me tAo.

You are right, I'm trying to play catch up reading through all the words, which is difficult for me. I didn't realize you were quoting OshoRobbins and I mis-understood the reference. My appologies.

Yes: "beyond knowing" = "unknowable".

"Beyond knowing" is the containing set (or possibly a superset: how to know?) to the known and unknown. I am thinking of it as the "boundary" for all that is or is not known. However, I think this "boundary" is the ineffable field of creative potential which the present is. It contains and is contained by all that is known and unknown, all that exists and is nonexistent, all that is and is not. The "state" that I claim it is, is all states of knowing and unknowing and the emptiness that is their form which is unknowable. I appologize, the words and thoughts disappear... I just don't know.

So the uknowable state, is what is ( I am that I am ). Being present is, in my opinion, experiencing the ineffable from within this skin bag of being but in this experience is the emptiness around which the experience is enfolded. I can't get outside the fishbowl with these thoughts. I suppose, after all this floundering, I'm just agreeing that as you said, "the 'unknowable' is that which can never be known."

Jayme,

You said:

"I didn't realize you were quoting OshoRobbins and I mis-understood the reference. My appologies."

-- Sure, no problem.

"Beyond knowing" [...] I am thinking of it as the "boundary" for all that is or is not known. [...] I think this "boundary" is the ineffable field of creative potential which the present is. It contains and is contained by all that is known and unknown, all that exists and is nonexistent, all that is and is not."

-- I don't agree with that elaboration. You seem like you are talking about the "unknown". The "unknown" is whatever is not presently known, but which could or may (or may not) become known at some future date. On the other hand, the "unknowable" can never be known. So there is absolutely NOTHING you can say or know about the "unknowable". Yet you have speculated some things here. So you are necessarily talking about the "unknown", not the "unknowable". So again, there is not anything that can be said (or speculated) about the "unknowable"... because it is UNKNOWABLE. Do you see the difference? So that's why I say that whatever you may be speculating about, is only about the present "unknown" (which could someday become a known), and not the "unknowable". The unknowable is that which is forever out of reach of knowing... so nothing, absolutely nothing can be said (or known)about it. Whatever it is, it is unknowable (not just unknown).

"The "state" that I claim it is, is all states of knowing and unknowing and the emptiness that is their form which is unknowable."

-- Again, you can't say ANYTHING about the unknowable. You can only speculate about the unknown. Whatever is now unknown, could become known at some later date.

"So the uknowable state, is what is ( I am that I am )."

-- No, if you say "unknowable", then there is nothing you can say about it.

"Being present is, in my opinion, experiencing the ineffable from within this skin bag of being but in this experience is the emptiness around which the experience is enfolded."

-- That may be, but what you describe is either the known or what is currently unknown, but not the unknowable.

"I can't get outside the fishbowl with these thoughts."

-- That's because you are attempting to define the unknowable, which is impossible... because, 'the unknowable' is simply unknowable. Forget about the unknowable. Just concern yourself with whatever is known and whatever is (currently) "unknown".

"I suppose, after all this floundering, I'm just agreeing that as you said, "the 'unknowable' is that which can never be known."

-- Yes, thats the point... so now you see.

tAo,

Yes - lol.

Ashtana,

Just read your comment.

Thank you for pointing out that I ain't no Buddha.

Who wants to be Buddha?

I have no desire to be a Buddha. I am simply ME - and that is enough.

I have no set standard to live up to. No moral code - no 'set of rules'
that prove 'enlightenment'.

You call me "this OshoRobbins fool". You are absolutely correct.

I am a fool and I enjoy being a fool. Maybe you could come to
the 'fool party' and hang out with all the fools.

It is fun being a fool. Because you can simply be yourself and break all
the so-called rules of the intelligent people. After all - you are a fool!


Let me quote from the posting that caused your reaction:

P3 is an ordinary person - and does not need to claim anything
as there is nothing to claim.

Like I said - I am just having a cup of tea and enjoying the scene
around me.

I have no churchless cult followers. I don't need 'followers'

Ashtana,

In response to your latest message:

If in your opinion - all of us here are
deluded
fraud ass
self-righteous
godforsaken
self-indoctrinated
delinquent
arrogant
punk ass pricks
and self-satisfied fraudulent prats

then what are you doing here?

Why would you listen to such people?

You must obviously enjoy our company.

I suggest you go back to the Holy Satsang of your RS guru
where they have only the truth and they are all fully
enlightened and reside in Sach Khand.

Why bother with us fools?

Maybe this is really what you are feeling about RS but do not have
the courage to say it - so you project it onto the churchless.

You are obviously deeply unhappy and angry about something.

Examine yourself, my friend. Find out why a few people having an
ordinary discussion on this forum would cause such a strong reaction
in you.

If you are strong in your faith or whatever you believe - then please
continue on your path. Who rattled your cage anyway?

Nobody cares if you think we are fools.

Perhaps we are. Let us be. Enjoy the show. Follow your own path.

And good luck in arriving in Sach Khand.

I'll see you there - if you ever arrive.

And if you do - I'll kick your ass - just for a laugh

and then have a cup of tea!

Oh - I forgot - do they have asses in Sach Khand?

And cups of tea?

By the way - who told you I am "enlightened" - I don't even know what
it means!

Jayme,

Thanks for your replies.

You initially mentioned,

"Questioning implies un-knowing and certainty implies knowing. Perhaps when the RS Master says "don't question", one is best to look at it as a state "beyond knowing" rather than a state of being forbidden. Being responsible to those energies in which we find ourselves is being in a state beyond knowing - we just do."

---Explain again, the difference between the states of "beyond knowing" and "being forbidden" in relation to the RS Master saying "don't" question. Please reply specifically to what is being asked of you.
---Give specific examples of these "energies" you mentioned, that we find ourselves, as associated within a particular state beyond knowing.

Your information on this topic sounds very interesting.

Best wishes,
Roger

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