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May 08, 2009

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IF U R INITIATED AND SIT ON MEDITATION REGULARLY. A TIME COMES WHEN NO QUESTION IS LEFT IN THE MIND.IT IS REALLY VERY VERY DIFFICULT TO FOLLOW THE PATH. THERE ARE SO MANY PIT FALLS. IT IS GRACE OF GOD WHICH PREVAILS AT LAST IF ONE CAN EXPEIRINCE IN ONE'S LIFE TIME. OTHERWISE THE WHOLE WHORLD IS EMPTY. THE PATH LEADS TO FRUSTRATION IF FOLLOWED WITH SINCERETY ON MEDITATION ALONE, GRACE OF GOD AND HUMBLENESS TOWARDS HIS CREATION ARE MUST

'A time comes when no Question is left in the mind'

That is the issue, do you guarantee this, or is it the Master who does?
How many times are we told this....Is there anyone out there who can categorically say 'I have travelled within and I have no more questions? If you have or anyone has....where are the answers?
I am not talking about 'fairy tales', not about hearsay, not about what apparently has happened between so called Masters.
It is all based on Faith and nothing else, just as other religions & beliefs.

I am beginning to believe that NO belief is the only way to 'know thyself'.
As I stated all faiths promise and hitherto do not deliver. When we attach ourselves to someone, some belief, some ideology we are NOT freeing our minds.....you are giving it substance and hence keeping it imprisoned. Why do you think you and all struggle so much on their respective paths.

The Master say's to many enquirer's..."Have you found anything better"......

I say...why are you LOOKING!
All you need to be free is to stop chasing dreams of the Machine called Religion/faith. Free the mind from all these man made manifestations and be ultimately free. Once you discover your true self through ownership of self, then only you can be free.

You talk of Grace of God.....You are God...Know who you truly are!

Reincarnation is a pretty strange idea to me. Especially with relation to karma. Imagine it, the Bhagavad Gita says that we have existed since the beginning of time. Think about how many lives you must have had. Now think about the amount of karma you have stockpiled. It must be almost infinite! How can a person possibly erase this load of karma?

What about the creation of new souls? And what about the big bang theory?

If our souls are immortal then how can there have been a time when they came into existence?

The fall of man from some vague conception of a "heaven" to earth doesn't make a jot of sense. This biblical story of Adam and Eve must be a joke. It contains so many contradictions. Adam ate the fruit and knew evil. Why would God not want Adam to know evil and then plant a fruit in eden for adam to eat in the first place? And how did the people that wrote Genesis know what God said to Adam unless Adam was made to speak an unevolved language?! It's all a load of nonsense.

Truly, we are God but it is said self realization is essential before God realization.

It is all my theoritical knowledge. Had I experienced anything within myself, I would i have not being visiting this blog.

THIS VERY BLOG HAS COME INTO BEING BECOUSE BRIAN COULD NOT GET THE DESIRED RESULTS FROM MEDITATION. HAD HE GOT SOMETHING HE WOULD HAVE BEN THE LAST MAN TO COME UP WITH THIS BLOG.

THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE IS THOSE WHO SPEAK HAVE NO PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE AND THOSE WHO HAVE THE EXPERIENCE DO NOT SPEAK.

YET THERE ARE SOME WHO HAVE ALL THE EXPERIENCES AND SPEAK AS WELL. IN FACT THEY ARE THE ONES WHO SPEAK BY PERMISSION OF THEIR MASTER AS A PART OF THEIR DUTY.

Rakesh, believe me when I say I understand your point of view BUT
I reiterate what I said earlier...'fairy tales’, hearsay, stories of what happened between so called Masters.
Again your assumptions are just that and based on what you have heard second hand.

Funny how you say "IN FACT THEY ARE THE ONES WHO SPEAK BY PERMISSION OF THEIR MASTER AS A PART OF THEIR DUTY"
I presume you are talking about the ones that give Satsang.........do you know the criteria to give Satsang?

It has nothing to do with your inner experiences! It's all to do with your knowledge of the subject and how well you can translate the meanings of poems. Are you seriously telling me that some that give Satsang actually have experiences, when it is clear they do not through the litany of mistakes they make when they preach. I have known preachers since the age of five {I am now 40}....they would continually come to our house to practice! That is exactly what they did, practice translations & poems.
And what’s all this about experiences; hearing sounds, seeing light is the foundation of many faiths and modes of meditation but does not mean you are realising God.
The mind is empty...we use 10% if lucky so these experiences are nothing but delving into parts of the brain that are dormant. Don’t confuse this with realisation.....Ask anyone who has delved into the use of certain drugs.....they apparently have all these experiences and a lot more! That would mean, going by your logic and that of others on various faiths that they are indeed Realised Souls, when in fact it is just the Mind!
This faith like all others is based on fear, this results in control. You know who the Masters point out as their ideal followers .......the Simple folk of the hills and villages of India! They will not use their intellect because they are not allowed to and governed by fear.
I presume you have read the literature, which clearly indicates two types of Master...One which is born a Master & one who is initiated into one. Born a Master, therefore no need for one....why do you need one, be free my friend.
My objective is to free myself not to be TIED to anything or anyone. To be liberated, be limitless & boundless. You cannot be that if you are bound.

Brian,

Suppose he would have answered your question in some way acceptable to you. You would have just asked another one...ad nasuium..

Sorry I missed the festivities in Haynes park.

Try "living with kundalini" by gopi krisna -
A Very Excellent guide.

lou

cyfer, I didn't ask the questions. Shin did. I don't have any questions for the guru. Actually, I don't have any questions for anybody when it comes to metaphysics, because I don't believe anyone has answers. I ask questions of myself; that's the only place answers will come. From within, not without.

"THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE IS THOSE WHO SPEAK HAVE NO PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE AND THOSE WHO HAVE THE EXPERIENCE DO NOT SPEAK."

-- No, that is incorrrect and backwards. The reality is that those who have had no experience are always the ones doing the speaking, and they always speak about it as if they have had the experiences. But upon being questioned further, they invariably admit that they have had no experiences at all, and that actually they acquired all their ideas and info from books or satsang lectures. Its always the ones who have had no experience who are the ones who talk and preach dogma. Those who have had experience do not follow or preach any dogma. Those who have had experience tend to question dogma and those who preach dogma.

"YET THERE ARE SOME WHO HAVE ALL THE EXPERIENCES AND SPEAK AS WELL. IN FACT THEY ARE THE ONES WHO SPEAK BY PERMISSION OF THEIR MASTER AS A PART OF THEIR DUTY."

-- Again, that is backwards. Those who actually have had experience, do not need any "permission" (from anyone) to speak, or any approval. Those who have had experience, do not need any "master". And those who actually have had experience, are never bound by any such "duty" to any so-called "master", nor have they any "duty" to speak or preach any sort of dogma.

It is always those who have had no experience, who rely upon blind faith and "permission" and dogma and scriptures, who are the ones who go about preaching to others.


Manish arora says:

"theres a system ones need to adopt to do satsang"

-- Who says there is a particular "system" that one MUST "need to adopt?

"many people have and had inner experiences but all aren't permitted to dislcose"

-- No one needs or must have any such permission. No body (such as the RSSB) has any right to tell other people what they can or cannot "disclose", or to restrict freedom of speech.

"Why they arent permitted because theres some very strange reason lies within which can only be revealed when we go inside."

-- This kind of nonsense is both idiotic and evasive.

"RSSB is not any such institute depends upon Dogma culturem"

-- Wrong. The RSSB relies entirely upon dogma and guru-cultism.

"And RSSB hasnt created anything of their own"

-- Wrong again. The doctine of Santmat/RSSB is entirely created by RS gurus and adherents. Where do you think it all came from if not created by RS gurus?

"Rssb masters never said they are god disguise in human"

-- Wrong again. Santmat and RS both says and implies that the 'master' is GIHF throughout their teachings and literature.

"RSSB preach the path which has been taught by many saints whom all have been coming and going for this purpose"

-- Who says they are "saints"? What makes them "saints"? You are still evading the issue and and refusing to answer this simple question.

"shiekh fareed guru nanak dev ji kabir saheb
paltu sahib dadu. shami-e-tabriz swami ji maharaj"

-- These are just names of various men, most all of whom had no connection whatsoever to the RS sect, and all who passed away long ago.

"they have followed the footsteps of all those saits who in their times have come and preached about getting out of transgimiration, and abt not using ur intellecut."

-- That IS the point... PREACHING doctine and dogma proves nothing.... no matter who it was who preached it.

"how can we even think about the creator thru our minds which mind is itself given by the creator to us."

-- This is meaningless mumbo-jumbo.

"its not at all possible to get all answers thru this intellectual mind..as this mind has its limitation."

-- Then why are your arguing, debating, and preaching via your intellect?

"what can take us beyond all these materialistic world and mind is our soul"

-- What "soul"? 'Soul' is just an abstract concept, and a mere word. What does it refer to? Where is this "soul"? It is merely an idea that you believe in.

"our soul which is being prisoned in this body"

-- Prove it. Prove that there is a "soul" and that this so-called "soul" is "being prisoned" in the body.

"its very complicated thing to understand."

-- This is just an excuse which actually represents more avoidance and evasion than anything else.

"we human have the habit of analyzing,but again a truth we cannot find god by using our mind."

-- There is no need to "find God". God is not lost or somewhere else.

"Can we really think the way Albert Einstein use to think the way bill gates think the way wareen buffet think No we cannot are they special"

-- This comment is idiotic. Those are all intelligent, but nevertheless quite ordinary people. They are not "special". Gates and Buffet are merely very wealthy - nothing uniquely special there. And also there are many people who are just as smart as Einstein was, if not more so. Nothing special there either.

"how can we compare with the god
the creator of this whole universe..
thats the reason we do not find reasons."

-- Oh sure... excuses, excuses, excuses.... LOL

"when we are not able to try to go inside completely we get frustrated"

Wrong again. No one here is "frustrated"... except for dogma believers like you.

"at last all these doubts which are the gift of negative power trap us."

-- Oh sure... that ("negative power trap us") is similar to that other lame excuse "Satan made me do it". Do you actually think that rational people will buy such quasi-religious crap?

its not so easy to have spiritual progress because [...] we arent able to follow the way we have to."

-- There is NO such "way we have to".

"we thus fail..and start questioning about master and its path."

-- Questioning is NOT to "fail" at all. To question is to have intelligence and true wisdom. And ALL leaders, teachers, and so-called "masters" SHOULD be questioned.

"Tao brother said those who had experience do not need masters [...] my dear without master no one can have inner experience"

-- That is total nonsense. No such "master" is needed. I have had many and much profound "inner experience" without any so-called "master". So you don't know what you are talking about. Your rhetoric is narrow-minded dogma... its not the rule.

"its only when we can go inside and see we wud come to know what master is and what he does for us."

-- Another ridiculous evasive ploy.

"will you forget your parents who have taught you to speak to walk to talk
and when you grow up will you yell on them
saying you people do not understand anything"

-- No because my parents cared for me, raised me, and taught me. But these so-called "masters" are not my parents... so I don't owe them anything. So your analogy does not apply.

"we often get carried away by our mind..
and mind is enemy to us."

-- Wrong. Mind is not "enemy" at all. This is crazy thinking. Mind is intrinsic to human life.

"because it keep us busy in all those things which arent important in our life."

-- Wrong. All "those things" ARE indeed important in out life.

"we are born to die."

-- The body is born, and so the body must die. That is all there is to it. So accept it and deal with it... don't run away from it.

"this human form is given to us for a very purpose and the purpose is God realisation."

-- That is only your own personal opinion.

why you ppl arent able to believe that theres a creator behind this universe"

-- I don't say that there is no creator. You are putting false words and ideas into other peoples mouths.

"the creator is also inside us."

-- How do you know that?

"this words arent said by me or just one master that god is within us its said by every saint who have come on earth"

-- Incorrect. Not all so-called "saints" have said that. Not by a long shot.

"even jesus said the same"

-- Jesus is a religious myth constructed by the Church.

"guru nanak dev kabir sahib paltu ji
dadu mira bai swami ji everyone..said the same thing"

-- No they did not... but who cares what they said?

"the essence of the truth is ONE n the SAME for all"

-- No, sorry to inform you, but "the truth" is NOT "ONE n the SAME" for everyone. There are many different opinions in the world about what is truth and what is not.


Manish,
I agree with everything oAt has stated!

Your are indeed confused and are the perfect fodder for this faith.

Your claims are one of book knowledge and nothing more. The fact that you along with the other 'sheep', continually try to shovel your dogma down the throats of others is proof of this....and by the way you are indeed using your intellect when doing this.

Whatever you have said is not new....it is something I have heard all my life...in books, at satsangs and by other people like you, who THINK they know something but have Experienced nothing.....you know....the one's that always Preach.

You live in fear as I continually say and are not truly free.

You say "this human form is given to us for a very purpose and the purpose is God realisation."

You know how many Satsangis there are..approx 1.5 million added to this about another couple of million who follow a path of Surat Shabd Yoga in some form. Therefore this makes approx 3.5 million.
What about the other 6.3 BILLION People of the world.
This is the greatest 'cop out' going....Oh this birth is given after millions of life times and must be used for God Realisation!!!
Again what about the other 6.3 Billion people you ignore....who according to the philosophy also waited millions of life times!!Answer me that...You can't because there are no answers in the books.

And you state the beliefs all these so called Saints....What proof have you got of their real roles within society...were you there...again all hearsay & books.
Don't get me started on Jesus Christ!!! Go on look at Zeitgeist the movie:
Quote: "The reality is, Jesus was the Solar Deity of the Gnostic Christian sect,and like all other Pagan gods, he was a mythical figure. It was the political establishment that sought to historize the Jesus figure for social control. By 325 a.d. in Rome, emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicea.It was during this meeting that the politically motivated Christian Doctrines were established and thus began a long history of Christian bloodshed and spiritual fraud. And for the next 1600 years, the Vatican maintained a political stranglehold on all of Europe, leading to such joyous periods as the Dark Ages, along with enlightening events such as the Crusades, and the Inquisition.
Christianity, along with all other theistic belief systems, is the fraud of the age. It serves to detach the species from the natural world, and likewise, each other. It supports blind submission to authority. It reduces human responsibility to the effect that "God" controls everything, and in turn awful crimes can be justified in the name of Divine Pursuit. And most importantly, it empowers those who know the truth but use the myth to manipulate and control societies. The religious myth is the most powerful device ever created, and serves as the psychological soil upon which other myths can flourish".
Christ was based on the Egyptian Sun God Horus!! It is all Mythology & Astrology...The Three day resurrection is based on the Winter Solstice, where the sun remains at its lowest points for 2 days and begins to rise on the third! There are numerous examples like these & the Majority of so called saints can be traced back to similar associations.
I hope this awakens your desire to do serious research before expounding your well trodden doctrine.

I would love to know what Tao thinks about Faqir Chand.

Do you believe his words about what he experienced in meditation? Thanks.

Dear Shin,

I have gone through your comments. "Satsang" is a word in Hindi which simply means the company of truth. It never means discourse.

We use only 10% of our energy however hardworking we are.

The experiences of a schizophrenic and mystic are similar. But one experiences them under no control of him where as the other experiences at will.

Enough literature on mysticism and schizophrenia is available. It makes a good reading.

My experiences are truly second hand.

I really fail to understand when no mundane activity can be learnt without a master how spiritualism can be.

A child can never learn a particular language unless taught. No body knows by birth however one intelligent is.

I need not go beyond the four wall of my house. My father was my ideal who never gave a damn to the organization. He only concentrated on the technique of meditation and his master. I saw him for forty years. He practiced surat shabad yoga and one fine morning he said I going to leave my body in the evening which I have been practicing for several years and finally he did. I saw his countenance the most satisfied when I finally expired.

This space is too small for me to share his experiences.

MY MOUTH WILL ALWAYS REMAIN SHUT TO ELABORATE MY EXPERIENCES.

With kindest regards,


oops !! sorry bout tat Brian,,,, I shoulda known.. :)

i just purused the articles...

We just enjoy the cognitive reverie, there are no answers in these subjects. One side has never been able to convince the other to their satisfaction.

Personally, I have to listen to what my mind/body demand and that is that I meditate in my way and then everything is fine. I don't ask myself questions. Direct experience is it period. Nothing else will do.

P.S.

Okay i've gone back and read the board.

Everything the anti-guru and anti-cult(r.s)
people say is 100% correct.

However i did enjoy rakesh father.

RS is 90% brainless dogma. 5% Zen and 5% Kundalini.

my invaluable 2 cents...

"I would love to know what Tao thinks about Faqir Chand."

-- He seemed more honest in his admittance that he had no mystic powers, but he still played the role of guru anyway.

"Do you believe his words about what he experienced in meditation?"

-- What is there to believe? What words were those? I never said much of anything about my experiences, nor were they confined only to meditation.

BTW, I'd like to acknowledge: That was one heck of an intelligent comment from Shin. Right-on Shin! You really nailed it mate. Well said.

Now moving on...


Rakesh Bhasin said:

"Satsang" is a word in Hindi which simply means the company of truth. It never means discourse."

-- Yes... but still, discourse is a part of many satsangs.

"The experiences of a schizophrenic and mystic are similar."

-- That may be because many so-called mystics were possibly quite schizophrenic.

"I really fail to understand when no mundane activity can be learnt without a master how spiritualism can be."

-- That is not so. Many "mundane" activities and skills can be learned by oneself without any teacher, and spirituality even more so.

"My father was my ideal who never gave a damn to the organization. He only concentrated on the technique of meditation and his master. [...] He practiced surat shabad yoga"

-- Thats nice... but, so what?

"This space is too small for me to share his experiences."

-- I am not interested in his experiences.

"MY MOUTH WILL ALWAYS REMAIN SHUT TO ELABORATE MY EXPERIENCES."

-- A typical cop-out. Its what they all say when cornered. The same old evasive RS bullshit.

What exactly are you trying to prove here Rakesh?

Dear Shin,

I saw you questioning him that day and a thought struck me. I used to have exactly the same confusion and was very happy you asked this question at Haynes.

But,

Why do you believe that our intellect(human form) is perfect enuf to understand each and every phenomena on this plane? Don't you confront your intellect when things don't go as we planned? Will you believe if I say that there are not 1 but infinite gods and infinite similar stages of experiencing life in one form or the other..i knw you wont.

Our intellect is not powerful enuf to think everything. There are things which can be experienced only with raised consciousness. You want master to tell you everything before you experience it yourself, why not struggle and see it for yourself? Anyways, you are not paying anything or loosing when you are on the path and struggling. There is no one's personal gain except our own, there is nothing to loose..then why fear??


This is what I felt for myself when i was confronted with the same questions that you have.

First of all Manish, your comment was very hard to read. Please try to be more coherent (i.e. use sentences and paragraphs). It's just easier to read and understand your point that way.

That said,

"you are not at all qualified to have any inner experience because u have no ability to understand things correctly.."

Firstly, you have no idea what anyone on this blog has experienced or is capable of. No one but themselves do. Secondly, you say we're not qualified. What are the qualifications then? And who are you to say that someone is or is not qualified to experience anything?


"like this this churcless will be turn out 2 be a shit nothing more than that.."

If this blog is shit then why are you here?

"tao even said that kabir dad guru nanak dev ji havent said all this
well this statment shows ur igonrance n innocence."

Were you there when they were alive? No? Then how do you truly know what they said? No one really knows because they weren't there! And if their statements are recorded somewhere, who wrote them down? How accurate is the source? History is plagued with these kind of issues.

"well what i can see is churcless people arent ready to accept the truth they all just wanted results"

Isn't that the whole point? RSSB promises results therefore it is natural to expect them.

"they are desperate for results without working hard"

How do you know how hard someone else has worked? Brian has stated that he followed the RSSB method to the letter for several decades. Are you saying that all that time he wasn't working hard enough? What more can someome do?

" they even never sapred jesus ....how can people like u can spare us we are just as normal human beings..
when ppl like u can murder jesus.."

The "Jesus is a Myth" idea is well known. There aren't many contemporary sources describing Jesus from his own time. It is one of the views people take when analysing Jesus as a real historical figure. He is thought of as a real historical figure so why should historians "spare" him? And those who bring up this idea of Jesus having never existed and the whole conspiracy behind it, are just using their intellect. They are quoting information they learned elsewhere and are expressing their opinions. There is nothing wrong with that.

And no one "murdered" Jesus. No one was even alive that long ago. And as for metaphorical murder, as I have stated, this is one view historians take about Jesus. If you have an issue with it, take it up with those who actually thought up the theory in the first place.

"so ppl like u can say what ever they want"

That's called freedom of speech.

Also Manish,

I encourage you to watch a documentary called "Who wrote the Bible?". It's very interesting and very informative. The presenter goes on a journey to uncover the historical basis of the Bible.

Here is a link if you are interested: http://www.surfthechannel.com/episode/61511/237337.html

Tintin,

You were there and I never said at any point our intellect is perfect enough to understand each & every phenomena.
To Refresh:
This existence we are all a part of is a GAME created out of boredom. Therefore this infers IMPERFECTION. Hence, why do we want to go back to imperfection, only to be told, the Game will continue or a new one created and you will have to be sent back! As you will only be bored here"? I went onto to say the creator is experiencing all the good, bad & evil through each one of us...

Me believing in infinite planes of existence has got nothing to do with it!
There may be millions!....what are we trying to decipher here and when we debate with our peers?
We are here looking for the truth and trying to understand the truth. If Sant Mat is real or just another Scam.
With a truly open mind it does in fact look like another Scam to me!!......and my daughter of 20, who uses her own intellect {don’t forget I was also a so called Premie Satsangi for many years....in fact I was doing seva from the age of 5} calls this a Very Good Business!!

You say we are not paying or loosing anything....my friend you pay with your LIFE and every breadth you take! And if you are taking Monetary...that made me giggle, actually laugh out aloud....don't you see all the Seva {Money} boxes conveniently situated at every satsang centre in the world! And yes many give by Direct Debit!!!....when you are so sucked into some belief you will not only give money but your property to! This money seva is all done with stealth...and so many people give so so so much....and majority who do not understand give only because they want something in return in THIS life...a good job, a good wife/husband, good health, good children, wealth etc etc etc....These are FACTS and the reason many attend Satsang.....oh I better attend this week but continue to violate the teachings throughout the week...continue with family squabbles, continue with underhand business techniques, continue with abusive attitudes, continue NOT to help people in need, etc etc etc.........all based on fear as I continue to say!

I never believed I will know everything BUT do understand how to be FREE....with any faith you are indeed carrying a Sack of Rocks...when you have Nothing...you can RUN!!!

Manish,
I feel so sorry for you!
Your reply to TAO was indeed Abusive....you call yourself a satsangi....this is why so many have so many questions because of people like you! The master says 'turn the other cheek', but your reply was full of Anger....don't preach what you cannot practice.
And what is your obsession on Jesus. Please read my previous comment. Jesus as we know him was a figment of the Roman Empire based on Ancient Egypt. But it appears you do not research and believe anything you are told...but if you seek something more as proof, here is a bit more:
The cross of the Zodiac, IS the figurative life of the Sun, this was not just an artistic expression or tool to track the Sun's movements. It was also a Pagan spiritual symbol. This is NOT a symbol of Christianity. It is a Pagan adaptation of the cross of the Zodiac. This is why Jesus in early occult art is always shown with his head on the cross, for Jesus is the Sun, the Sun of God, the Light of the World, the Risen Savior, who will "come again," as it does every morning, the Glory of God who defends against the works of darkness, as he is "born again" every morning, and can be seen "coming in the clouds," "up in Heaven," with his "Crown of Thorns," or, sun rays. All this depicts the cycle of OUR SUN AND Nothing more. AND a final obvious one for you:
Jesus had 12 Disciples....and come to think of it Horus too.... and are simply the 12 constellations of the Zodiac, which Jesus, being the SUN, travels about with.....common sense hey!

I think we should have a serious blog searching for the top ten questions that should be posed to this so called GIHF, short, concise and eloquent enough to elaborate the point(s) - such that this joker of a guru would effectively be speechless and shake up the indoctrinated followers. The blog could also suggest (if any) the lame answer we would probably get!
This blog wouldn`t be for any current rssb followers as they aren`t allowd to use their intellect! :)

Question by shin: "This game is fundamentally the Creator experiencing Itself through each individual soul. Therefore he is experiencing all the good, all the bad, and evil through us as a part of this game?"

Answer: "No, the Creator does not need to experience good or bad, he does not need to.

he does not say that the creator does not experience it, he said that he does not need to experience it. is a question of freedom, not morality, ethics, karma, or of any other known laws. the quest is for freedom, from and for something, And he repeated himself twice...he does not need to.

Question number two:

"This existence we are all a part of is a GAME created out of boredom. Therefore this infers IMPERFECTION. Hence, why do we want to go back to imperfection, only to be told, the Game will continue or a new one created and you will have to be sent back! As you will only be bored here"?

Answer: "Do not take everything I say as literal and it may just be expressed in jest!
Anyway it is not imperfect up there/in there and you will not be sent back

Why do you assume that we were bored, and that even if were bored, you corelae boredom with imperfection. And what is perfection anyway. You have so many pre-assumptions. A creator, a soul, sending down, boredom, imperfection. These are not words that describe concrete physical social entities. they are metaphors, analogys, signs, symbols, points on a map, guidelines at the most,mental satisfaction for a mind that has been taught to work in a society with myriads of symbols all embedded with different meanings depending on context. Dont confuse the language which is a platform for communication for the thing in itself. Be more worried if you left totally satisfied with what he said.
In santmat, the philosophy is straighforward. The mind is the tool and soul/shabd is the neverending fuel. All these questions of whether there is a being, or no being, both a being and no being, neither being or no being, via negativa/positiva,chaos/order, neither chaos or order etc etc. all are mind, and all pathways, methods for conceputalisation.

The answer by Gurinder was again eloquent and straight to the point. If you remember more questions and answers post them so that we can have more to compare.

"What is there to believe? What words were those? I never said much of anything about my experiences, nor were they confined only to meditation."


Faqir Chand's words were about meditation. I know that you've read his words about him seeing his inner guru seeing bright light and hearing sound and experiencing intense bliss within.

He has written in many words his experiences.

Do you believe that he really did see the inner lights and sounds and then also the soundless colorless stage?

I will also post some of his words if you'd like to comment:

"Light manifests itself within you. You see that Light. You are
different from it whereas the Light is different from you. Similarly,
you listen to the continuous sound of the Shabd within you. That sound
of the Shabd is playing, whereas you the listener are different. Then
who is it that sees the Light and listens to the Sound within? It is
your Real Self. Your Self sees the Light and listens to the Sound,
enjoys the scenes created by the mind and beholds Baba Faqir, or the
Guru within. Then who is the Real Lord within you? It is your own
Self. Your own Self is the witness within. Whatever colours, forms,
Light and Sound manifest within you depend upon the constitution,
balance and nature of your body. Your Real Self is not your body. You
reside in the body and you are the basis of this body. Similarly, the
basis of this universe is the Supreme Lord, who is the source of our
Self. The Supreme Lord is known by different names as Akaal Purush,
Anami Purush etc."
Thanks

Oh and Tao you have said to someone above:


"That may be because many so-called mystics were possibly quite schizophrenic."


So would you say that Faqir Chand was schizophrenic?

Chand heard voices from a inner guru. He heard sounds and saw light or experienced soundless lightless situations. All at his own will, according to his writtings. Thanks.

"Light manifests itself within you. You see that Light. You are
different from it whereas the Light is different from you. Similarly,
you listen to the continuous sound of the Shabd within you. That sound
of the Shabd is playing, whereas you the listener are different. Then
who is it that sees the Light and listens to the Sound within? It is
your Real Self. Your Self sees the Light and listens to the Sound,
enjoys the scenes created by the mind and beholds Baba Faqir, or the
Guru within."

---How does One see and record this light? Is this a sensory mental activity?
---How does One hear and record these sounds? Another sensory mental activity?
---So, does this "Real Self" have a different mind, from my other self?
---How does One know that these lights and sounds are different from myself?

"Faqir Chand's words were about meditation. I know that you've read his words about him seeing his inner guru seeing bright light and hearing sound and experiencing intense bliss within."

---So, why does the light have to bright? Anyone, ever experience a dime light in meditation?
---What is it about bright light or sounds, that would generate an "intense bliss" within?
---Does darkness create the opposite effect?
If so, then why would it?
---Faqir Chand's words are just words, combined into sentences.

Alex,

My question was a collective effort and the answer though direct continued in the vain of other pertinent questions; answered in the vague and confused manner....there is indeed a law of confusion!
I don't really care if he was bored, imperfect, wanted a break, dip his toes in unchartered waters, commit the first sin etc etc etc........The question is to define whether we are getting the truth from RS or it is all hocus pocus. It clearly appears when asked questions relating to existence and the why's & if's of creation and being itself....they are brushed aside Not because we cannot understand as claimed but because the answer is not known. Read what I wrote a couple of months ago 'good questions from a sant mat truth seeker'. Those questions have never been answered.
But to tell you the truth I have accepted they will not be answered because the answers are not known and the fact the faith is.....dare I say it.....fake...there I’ve said it! But a very good business!
Like so many others based on fear and control.
I am quite happy to try my own path.....and if you recall a gentleman stood up and asked “will all souls eventually go up?” Answer - Yes eventually but it depends how fast you want to go back!
Therefore why should I worry.........I don't need to......and if you are so confident this is the path....then I will be saved anyway according to the belief; this life, next life, whatever life. If you implicitly trust the Master.....this very site and the people on it are exactly what he wants. I reiterate he is within every Amoeba every hair follicle! Think about it, according to all faiths God is all powerful and knows all, every thought, every movement....he wants this! The Master never criticises anyone or anything...why because this is the Game he wants.
MY MISSION IS TO FREE MYSELF and I am happy to try it ON MY OWN.....thank you very much.

Joshu....i want call you ji because you don't deserve it!

Anyone who doubts the faith just read his comments.
I know all satsangis are not like him BUT he has just let you down big time!!

Dear Church (or Crutch) of the Linguistic Intellect Followers,

Remaining within the stifling confines of the conceptual intellect is being 'FREE'?

Hm.

Dear Shin,

First of all I admire your questioning of the Big Dude from Sach Khand, and posting your experiences here. Thanks.

In my opinion, you have got half the question and answer right.

But not quite.

Remove your purely body-mind organism *construct* of time/space from your question, and then rethink your inner question again....

You may realise this whole hyper-excitable discussion is entirely meaningless.

Then, an almost infinite level of insight further than these questions, beyond the incredibly limited scope of intellect, where conceptual queries are realised as empty of any substantial self-nature or validity, your intellect may actually acheive peace & contenment by subsiding into the non-conceptual basis of being.

All the best my friend.

Joshu, just get on with following your Master> If you truly do you would not be here!

Manjit, my friend your observations are real but unfounded as all i want is to LET GO.

Let Go of control {RS} & Let Go of my mind.When i let it go it will let me go!
I feel real freedom will only be found if i do this.
I have written enough here and know what i need to do.
Take care.

what else can anyone do but follow, either their own mind or if they truly are good disciples (unlike myself) then they follow the true will of the lord, but follow is what you do, left, right or center, every single one of us are but forlorn foolish fallible followers, one way or the other.

Dear Shin -

Nice :)

Maybe we shall meet in no-mind, in one sunny eternal moment.

Cheerio.

Manish arora,

You said:

"and i m soon planning to leave this blog..
because here theres only single minded theory"

--So, we won't have to hear about YOUR single minded theory anymore? !!

Manish, all you want to hear is agreement with your Sant Mat theory. Views conflicting with your beliefs upset you. You are unlikely to convince anyone on this forum to believe as you believe. So, as long as you comment here with that expectation you are guaranteed frustration when commenting on this blog forum. Don't you think it would be best to attend to simran and bhajan according to your master's instructions and not waste time on this blog. Like you say, life is short. It's time to get to work to free yourself from the ravenous jaws of Kal and his fetid world of Pinda. Leave the rest of us to wallow in our wretched dance on the wheel of eighty-four. If the master wants us, we can't resist his call, sooner or later, right? Not to worry.

Rotten Swami

Note: For purposes of the conservation of space in the comment/menu index, I will address each of several different posters and their issues in one long comment:

------------------------------------

Manish arora said:

"what swisha shin and tao are trying is to just satisfy their minds"

-- No, that is what YOU are trying to do. I need no such mental satisfaction. That which is real is self-evident.

"thats the reason they may even die without knowing all the answers they wanted to know."

-- I do not need or desire any such "answers". I have no questions. I am not seeking answers. I have not "wanted to know". Your assumptions about me are wrong, and you do not speak for me. Also, you have no answers, nor does anyone else. Life is revealed in the living of it.

"first of all who says RSSB is dogma"

-- I and many others say that the RS path and cult contains dogma. The fact is, that there is a significant degree of dogma within the RS teachings, and that is not debateble.

"and i have seen tao being so arrogant he says me and my words as excuse(s)
the biggest excuse maker and avoiding person here is TAO"

-- Is that so? ... well then prove it. Show the actual specific instances, and what excuses, and what avoidance. This response of yours is lame and without substance or fact. It is yet another failed attempt to avoid the issues.

"he always says bluntly who cares who knows
who believes
all these things arent but avoidance and excuses."

-- You are the one who refuses to address these "things" (issues) and answer these questions, so therefore you are the one who is making excuses and avoiding. You have offered no arguement in support of your claims.

"then like this no one can go thru any dicussion when theres only one point view"

-- This is exactly what we are telling YOU... That YOU hold and present only ONE very rigid narrow and fundamentalist point of view.

"and abt ur meditation experiences well
the person who speaks and think like you can never has any inner experiences'

-- First of all, I have never even discussed my meditation experiences, so you are off the tract there. Second, you know absolutely nothing about my meditation or my experiences. All you are doing here is revealing how incredibly stupid (ie: ignorant) and presumptious and judgemental you are. You know nothing about other people or their meditations.

"whether u believe or give damn
you are not at all qualified to have any inner experience because u have no ability to understand things correctly."

-- Again, you know nothing about me, nothing about my "understanding", nothing about my "ability", and nothing about my experience. So it is now becoming obvious that you too have some sort of mental or communiction problem, and it is YOU who do not "understand things correctly".

"u have only ur point of views"

-- Yes I do have my point of view, a sober point of view which is derived (in part) from over 30 years experience and knowledge in RS, not to mention a very significant degree of over-all life experience and extensive spiritual sadhana. So I have something to back up my views and opinions and conclusions.

"this churcless will be turn out 2 be a shit nothing more than that. because TAO alwayas willl say who cares"

-- No, I do not "always" say "who cares". And moreover, you have given no responses with any substance.

"then let me know what you all here are for
to polish ur egos and satisfy ur mind."

-- No, we are here to discuss and question the important issues. Yet you have offerd and have discussed nothing. All you have done is to preach dogma.

"well i said ppl in churchless are ppl wid dog mind. they have no faith in themself"

-- Wrong. You know nothing about other people here, or about their self-confidence. Every time you say something stupid like this, you show your ignornance.

"hence they have no faith in others"

-- That is correct... I have no "faith in others". I need no faith in others.

"they are just talking out of some unknown reasons"

-- There are no such "unknown reasons". All the reasons have been presented quite plainly and discussed numerous times. So your comment is bogus.

"or just satifying their egos by seeing a spiritual path growing to higher scales."

-- Wrong. Dead wrong. Nobody here gives shit about the expansion of RS. The issues here are the dogma and claims of RS, not how many followers it has.

"tao even said that kabir dad guru nanak dev ji havent said all this
well this statment shows ur igonrance n innocence."

-- I did not say that. I said that those people that you mentioned (Kabir, Nanak, etc) had nothing to do with the RSSB (except for Sawaan Singh), and that they are long dead and have no bearing on this discussion. You really have a problem in comprehending the issuses, and with your distorted and erroneous notions of what this blog (and other commenters) are all about.

"you really need sympathy of others and support"

-- No, our points and arguements need no such "sympathy" or "support".

"churcless people arent ready to accept the truth they all just wanted results"

-- What "truth"? And yes, RS promises results, so where are these results?

"they are desperate for results without working hard"

-- Wrong again. You do NOT know to what degree or how "hard" other people have worked (done spiritual sadhana and meditation)

"well TAO ur mom waited for 9 months to bring u to this world you mom was not desperate like u"

-- But I am not "desparate". Not at all. So what ARE you talking about? You don't even know what the hell you are talking about. You are just another typical disturbed and confused and mindless RS goon, just as Shin has rightly observed. You are not open-minded or rational at all.

"theres a system involved everyhwere"

-- No, not everything "everywhere" is a "system". You are just so entrenched in your rigid dogma, that you see everyting in terms of that narrow dogma. Other people are not stuck like you, they are free of that.

"when ppl like u can murder jesus."

-- Totally wrong. I had nothing to do with the story of Jesus. However, it is beginning to become apparent (in comments such as this) that you have some sort of irrational mental differentiation and projection problems.

"so ppl like u can say what ever they want
but it will always consider as meaningless."

-- Only meaningless to YOU... because you are so confused and dogmatic, you unable to discern what actually is meaningful.

"shows how much ur parents cared for u and the way they bought up u."

-- Well you know less than nothing about my pbringing, my background, or about my parents. And as a matter of fact, in this particular case, you are extremely out-classed.

"may god bless u"

-- You are a LIAR and a hypocrite. You don't fool anyone. Get a frickin clue, why don't you.

=========================================

Tintin said:

"Why do you believe that our intellect(human form) is perfect enuf to understand each and every phenomena on this plane?"

-- And why not?

"Our intellect is not powerful enuf to think everything. There are things which can be experienced only with raised consciousness."

-- You don't know that. And how do you know that others have not experienced "raised consciousness"?

"You want master to tell you everything before you experience it yourself"

-- NO... that is NOT what I or others here "want" at all. I don't "want" any such thing from any so-called "master". You are completely confused as to the issues here.

"why not struggle and see it for yourself?"

-- Where do you get the (false) idea that people have not struggled for and by themselves? Again, you are confused about the facts and about the issues.

"you are not paying anything or loosing when you are on the path and struggling."

-- Incorrect. The RS "path" requires considerable time, effort, energy, attention, limitations... and belief in dogma and blind faith in the guru. These are costly requirements.

"There is no one's personal gain except our own, there is nothing to loose..then why fear??"

-- There is no such "fear" in any of this. Again, you seem confused about the issues. And also, there is much to "lose"... as I have indicated just above.

===========================================

Alex said:

"he [Gurinder] does not say that the creator does not experience it, he said that he does not need to experience it."

-- This is a nonsesical debate. No one knows what God "experiences" or "needs". This is absurd, and Gurinder does not know what the hell he is talking about... nor do you.

"is a question of freedom, not morality, ethics, karma, or of any other known laws. the quest is for freedom, from and for something, And he repeated himself twice...he does not need to."

-- Who "does not need to"??? Need to what? Gurinder cannot speak for God, and Gurinder is not "free" either. This is all nonsense about nothing.

"Why do you assume that we were bored, and that even if were bored, you corelae boredom with imperfection."

-- You are confused again. The issue (as I read it) was about God and God's supposed boredom, not oherwise. And imo, its not about "boredom" at all. I don't quite agree with Shin's take on that. God is not "bored". The issue (imo) is really about the 'Lila' of God - the dance of God - the dance that is the manifestation of God. Its not about "boredom" at all. Boredom is an antropomorphic projection.

"You have so many pre-assumptions. A creator, a soul, sending down, boredom, imperfection."

-- That is true, I agree on that.

"In santmat, the philosophy is straighforward. The mind is the tool and soul/shabd is the neverending fuel."

-- Not so. Thats a bunch of nonsense.

All these questions of whether there is a being, or no being, [...] chaos or order etc etc. all are mind, and all pathways, methods for conceputalisation.

-- That is correct.

"The answer by Gurinder was again eloquent and straight to the point."

-- I totally disagree. There was no point to it at all, and it was evasive. it was neither "eloquent" nor meaningful.

===========================

Swisha said:

"Faqir Chand's words were about meditation. I know that you've read his words about him seeing his inner guru seeing bright light and hearing sound and experiencing intense bliss within. He has written in many words his experiences. Do you believe that he really did see the inner lights and sounds and then also the soundless colorless stage?'

-- I have NO idea. I also don't believe or disbelieve. And what does it matter what he may have experienced? That was just his own personal experience anyway.

"I will also post some of his words if you'd like to comment:

"Light manifests itself within you. You see that Light. You are
different from it whereas the Light is different from you. Similarly,
you listen to the continuous sound of the Shabd within you. That sound
of the Shabd is playing, whereas you the listener are different. Then
who is it that sees the Light and listens to the Sound within? It is
your Real Self."

-- This is all just words.

"Your Self sees the Light and listens to the Sound,
enjoys the scenes created by the mind and beholds Baba Faqir, or the
Guru within. Then who is the Real Lord within you? It is your own
Self."

-- More words and ideas.

"Your own Self is the witness within. Whatever colours, forms,
Light and Sound manifest within you depend upon the constitution,
balance and nature of your body. Your Real Self is not your body. You
reside in the body and you are the basis of this body. Similarly, the
basis of this universe is the Supreme Lord, who is the source of our
Self."

-- More words and ideas... and now beliefs.

"The Supreme Lord is known by different names as Akaal Purush,
Anami Purush etc."

-- These are all merely descriptive words or names. They amount to nothing.

"So would you say that Faqir Chand was schizophrenic?"

-- It is very possible that indeed he was schizophrenic, but I could never say for sure.

"Chand heard voices from a inner guru. He heard sounds and saw light or experienced soundless lightless situations."

-- That may be what he has reported about his experiences, but I have no comment.

====================================

Joshu ji said:

"penny will drop, eventually, and mind will take cognizance of its own arrogant stupidity, till then the farts ["Shin like tAo, Brian and a few others"] will continue thinking they smell sweetly of roses."

-- You obviously have no clue as to what the issues are about here. RS goons like you should either post some valid evidence and some intelligent arguements in support of your case, or else go back to your dogmatic Cult where you belong.

tAo:

Allow me to disagree within the spirit of healthy debate. We are in an 'ocean without a shore' as Rumi says it eloquently. What this means? A zen master would say have a cup of tea. I say? I dont know, yet, its the simplicity and absurtity strike a sensitive chord which produces harmonious symphonies. Regardless of the poetics. Tao,God,existence,shabd,art,soul,mind,life,
consiousness,awareness,art,freedom,infinity,
Space,Universe,It,
the It,
to einai,apeiron,
plires,the kosmos, whatever-which-exactly-once it is named-is not the thing-itself, cannot be excluded from me. I am it, either I like it or not. Like fish in water,a reflection in the mirror. Because it is, at the same time 'the mother of all things'.No?

the aforementioned text is a reply to tAo when he said,

-- This is a nonsesical debate. No one knows what God "experiences" or "needs". This is absurd, and Gurinder does not know what the hell he is talking about... nor do you.

This is nihilism and agnostism that I do not agree with. Following your train of thought, you can never know what i experience and what i need. Similarly you cannot know for gurinder or for anyone else for that matter. Crawl into your cave and see at least if you can know what you experience and what you need. If you already did that, then just add a little positivity and love to your perspective and you might see a little further ahead. I share Nietzsche pathos and optimism, when he says, in BOT

"Man is no longer an artist, he has become a work of art".
that occurs when the artist is 'exempt from the embarassing task of copying reality'.

this is a reply to the following exchange.

A."is a question of freedom, not morality, ethics, karma, or of any other known laws. the quest is for freedom, from and for something, And he repeated himself twice...he does not need to."

T. Who "does not need to"??? Need to what? Gurinder cannot speak for God, and Gurinder is not "free" either. This is all nonsense about nothing

Need, anagki in greek which means necessity, is arbitray, good is arbitrary, evil is arbitrary. The question is non sensical. He, it, god etc, does not need to experience these 'necessities' which are subjective. Now get into context, with a human being,with a unique persona, asking another human being,a spiritual teacher, this nonsensical question in public. Have a tea.

A."Why do you assume that we were bored, and that even if were bored, you corelae boredom with imperfection."

T.-- You are confused again.
No we agree. With were i mean god and i follow your arguement to the dot.


A."In santmat, the philosophy is straighforward. The mind is the tool and soul/shabd is the neverending fuel."

tAo. Not so. Thats a bunch of nonsense.

answer:
(Mind, tool, soul, shabd, are a typographic symbols to describe certain realities. each one can mean many things depending on context. In this context they indicate a practice).

So exactly.the mind is the tool. nonmind is what we want. non-sense. I agree with you. It is a bunch of nonsense.


21.
IT lies in the nature of Grand Virtue
To follow the Tao and the Tao alone.
Now what is the Tao?
It is Something elusive and evasive.
Evasive and elusive!
And yet It contains within Itself a Form.
Elusive and evasive!
And yet It contains within Itself a Substance.
Shadowy and dim!
And yet It contains within Itself a Core of Vitality.
The Core of Vitality is very real,
It contains within Itself an unfailing Sincerity.
Throughout the ages Its Name has been preserved
In order to recall the Beginning of all things.
How do I know the ways of all things at the Beginning?
By what is within me.

With whatever little mind I have, I find that comments to most of the articles on this blog ultimately circumvent around the same point. The point is either for the master or against the master. That too not from the personal or vicarious experience but a host of cited literature which belongs to specific directional thinkers.

It does make a good reading. I must compliment the owner of the blog as a lot of pain is taken to collate and present the material. It is really helping the true followers of RSSB. It prompts them to follow the teachings more steadfastly. It gives them the strength.

I shall love to read more if things are not written in ugly manner of mud slinging on each other.

After all, there are hundred and one ways to say the same thing without hurting feelings of each other.

I hold no authority to reprimand anybody. In fact here no body is needed to be reprimanded. It is only a request to cast our views so that more and more people can join us. We may then be benefited more. IT IS PURLY MY OWN OBSERVATION.

With love to one and all

Dear Tao,

The reply to your questions is as follows:

1. yes
2. Master Charan Singh
3. 1981
4. yes
5. Sometimes. India
6. yes
7. yes
8. trust and tend to adhere.

Alex, you said:

"Allow me to disagree within the spirit of healthy debate."

-- Then what is it that you disagree about?

"Tao, God, existence, shabd, art, soul, mind, life, consiousness, awareness, art, freedom, infinity, Space, Universe, It, the It, to einai, apeiron, plires, the kosmos, whatever-which-exactly-once it is named-is not the thing-itself, cannot be excluded from me. I am it, either I like it or not. Like fish in water, a reflection in the mirror. Because it is, at the same time 'the mother of all things'. No?

-- Not really. Those are only words.

"This is nihilism and agnostism that I do not agree with."

-- Perhaps you don't... but I do not, and have not touted nihilism or agnosticism.

"Following your train of thought, you can never know what i experience and what i need."

-- But I did not say that I do know what you experience or what you need.

"Similarly you cannot know for gurinder or for anyone else for that matter."

-- But I did not say that I do know. I simply said: "No one knows what God experiences or needs" ...and... "Gurinder does not know what the hell he is talking about".

"Crawl into your cave and see at least if you can know what you experience and what you need."

-- Why? I don't need to.

"If you already did that, then just add a little positivity and love to your perspective and you might see a little further ahead."

-- Well I already see further than you can imagine... and I am not lacking in "positivity and love".

It appears yhat you are somewhat confused about the issues here, and I am also not interested in your preaching.

"He, it, god etc, does not need to experience these 'necessities' which are subjective."

-- That is merely your opinion.

Now get into context, with a human being,with a unique persona, asking another human being,a spiritual teacher, this nonsensical question in public."

-- What you are talking about? And btw, I have no need to ask any so-called "spiritual teacher" anything.

"No we agree. With were i mean god and i follow your arguement to the dot."

-- OK... whatever.

"the mind is the tool. nonmind is what we want."

-- Is it? Is "nonmind" really what you want?

"It lies in the nature of Grand Virtue
To follow the Tao and the Tao alone.
Now what is the Tao? It is Something elusive and evasive.
Evasive and elusive! And yet It contains within Itself a Form.
Elusive and evasive! And yet It contains within Itself a Substance.
Shadowy and dim! And yet It contains within Itself a Core of Vitality.
The Core of Vitality is very real,
It contains within Itself an unfailing Sincerity. Throughout the ages Its Name has been preserved. In order to recall the Beginning of all things. How do I know the ways of all things at the Beginning?"

-- By not seeking.

Rakesh Bhasin said:

"I must compliment the owner of the blog [...] It is really helping the true followers of RSSB. It prompts them to follow the teachings more steadfastly. It gives them the strength."

-- But does it?

"It is only a request to cast our views so that more and more people can join us. We may then be benefited more."

-- Perhaps.

"With love to one and all"

-- Insh'allah.

And thank you for replying to those eight questions.

=================================

Manish arora said:

"i feel again asusal sad and sorry for TAO..who is really so innocent"

-- I think you must have your English language terms mixed-up. Innocent is far from what I am. So you are obviouly confused as to where I am coming from.

"make innocent ppl TAO understand."

-- It is YOU who are the one who has not understanding.

"Tao u asked few question from rakhesh ji and me [...] and i can say in short i belong to a family where we are following RSSB from sawan singh ji maharaj [...] I trust my master for various reasons..
i believe unconditionally in RSSB"

-- Well that may be, but this does not answer my questions.

"but i really feel pity on you."

-- That's your problem, not mine. And as I said previously, it is quite apparent that you are rather confused about the real issues here.

"TAO has only habit of creating is own stuff he says RSSB is a dogma..TAO itself is a man who himself speak DOGMA"

-- Well then, please do indicate exactly where and what is this "DOGMA" that you say that I "speak". Put-up or shut-up.

"alex and rakesh ji are much knowledgeable person than me who are taking care of ur innocence."

-- Well sorry to disillusion you, but I have no such "innocence". You seem to have your terms mixed-up... and I am far wiser and more knowledgeable and more experienced than you realize. You don't even have a clue as to where I am coming from.

"i cant talk the way u talk to me."

-- That's obvious. Your english grammer is less than perfect. But thats OK.

"i would like to ask tao few questions"

-- Why should I answer your questions, when you have refused to answer mine?

"1.whats ur real name" -- That is none of your business.

"2.wats ur religion" -- None.

"3.where r u from" -- I reside in USA.

"4.are u an rssb follower or ?" -- I am initiated, but not a "follower".

"5.if yes are u initiated' -- Yes.

"6.if yes by whom and which year" -- Charan Singh, 1977

"i hope atleast you will reply these questions with respect."

-- But YOU have NOT given respect by replying to MY questions.

manish,
you wrote:

"i think u got initiated just to enter RSSB and see what they do
got jealous wasnt able to digest and tolerate and indian sikh geting so popularity"
and
"i wanted to know who is this innocent man
an indian
or an american..."

Do you realize how racist you sound? Why should it matter whether tao is american or indian you asshole.

Manish,

I was not going to continue with this thread but you are not only Arrogant but disrespectful, Rude, Evasive, and Immature!!!

Like I said before to Joshu, if you truly follow your Master you would not be any of the above but YOU ARE! Therefore not a True follower but just one of those people who THINK they are.....it is sad and a sad reflection on RS.
Now get on with what you have promised your Master; living a pure life, being humble, sincere, respectful, helpful and QUIET and reflect on your so called inner journeys. It is only when you DO NOT experience do you feel the need to VENT latent feelings! It's like a child who is so frustrated that he throws a tantrum and throws all his toys out the Pram! Don't be angry at us, be angry at your Creator.....we are HAPPY with our Paths......obviously you are NOT!!

Shin, nicely said. I don't understand why there is so much anger among the "churched." Obviously they haven't gotten much peace of mind, love, and contentment from their spiritual practice.

Manish and others, you should check out the last three posts on my other blog:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/

Take a look at my cute grandchild. Realize that there is a lot more to life than obsessing about metaphysical fantasies. Embrace the here and now -- which, for me, recently has been a lovable two year old.

Getting angry at other people usually is a waste of time. Especially when the furious back and forth occurs on a blog in cyberspace.

We're just having a good time discussing stuff here on the Church of the Churchless. If you enjoy this blog, stay and have some fun. If it disturbs you, head elsewhere. Smile more and swear less, that's my advice.

There is one thing I just understand.

Whatever happened to the live and let live atidude?

Those who are initiaited why do you feel you have to defend your faith so strongly as if your world has been turned upside down by a blog which has the opposing view to yours.

Ultimately this is a blog which is an expression of view of someone who is tried the path for so many years and found the journey fruitless...and has been joined by a group of others who find themselves in the same boat.

Read their comments and respect their points of view because by the sounds of what thy say, they have put in dedicated time into the practice of sant mat but have not acheived the results that are prety much guranteed. why try and argue with them and bring them back to the fold. If the master is truly the shepard and all intiates are his marked sheep then he will take care of them himself.

just do what masters always say...concentrate on yourself and your own meditation. when it comes to sant mat and believing in it yo HAVE to be selfish and think of yourself and yourself only. because its your own karmic load that needs to be burned by yourselfves only.

I for one am not initiated but I have a strong urge to be. I come here and lurch quite often to read Brians posts and the comments that start off well but ultimately end up being slanging matches.

This Master always says that you should do as much research as you can before commiting yourself to the path. opposing view as well as the for view.

I hear the word dogma here used quite often...but I believe its the followers who create the dogma themselves over the course of time of a faith and the grouping of these dogmas form the basis of a faith becoming a full blown religion.

According to Sant mat there is four basic principals which need to be stuck to with the most important being meditation. why get involved in all the other crap...
i.e. guru worshipping. giving money because you feel you have to (like in a sikh temple or plate handed around in church)..rather than wanting to

Going to satsang isnt a prerequisite.
Doing physical seva isnt a must either.
but they are supposed to be tools to keep your mind aware that yes my duty is towards my meditation.

If you fel what Brian is posting insulting then dont read the Blog...move on.

I was always biased towards the for side but not by much until I read Kabirs Anurag Sagar (Ocean of Love). IF you want to believe it gives the full history of the lord, Kal, The creation of the universe, and the reasons souls ended up here and the method for going back to the lord.

it may be all bullshit but hey I want to beleive and choose to do so :)

Live and let live

....yawn....

Robert Paul Howard

tAo, I have indeed deleted a bunch of Manish's comments. Maybe all of them. He went over the line. Increasingly, I've got less and less tolerance for people who come on this blog and say "This blog is a bunch of crap."

Well, dude, go do something else. That's what I told Manish this morning, but he ignored the advice. Amazing how these true believers say that people should respect the authority of masters, but they won't respect the authority of the Grand Exalted Master of Church of the Churchless.

Namely, me. I don't have many commenting rules. But, like pornography, I know inappropriate comments when I see them.

brain my dear son why did u deleted my post again
was ur mom in pain..
u all are bastards


u guys have done enuff
TAO has crossed his limit in insulting my guru
that mother fucker will not be spared..
i will have to find the way soon to get in touch with these mother fuckers and fuck them finally
u bastards how dare you talk ill abt my matser u mother fuckers
FUCK U you assholes

Dear TAO my son
the countdown has become...
start counting ur days my son...

To Manish Arora:

Manish, I am also from India. You can do a small favor to your country (and ofcourse to your RS faith). Please don't talk before anyone. Your comments are making us ashamed.

Ravi, I deleted Manish's comments. They indeed were shameful. There are guys like him in every faith, and every country. I didn't consider Manish to be a true representative of Radha Soami, or of India. But his comments still deserved to be sent to the trash.

Dear Brian,

May I ask: how did the comments from this fellow differ from those of Ashy (Heller?), who only had his remarks exiled to the "I Hate Church of the Churchless" blog?

Robert Paul Howard

Robert, I got tired of taking the time to copy Ashy's rants and post them on the "I Hate" blog. So I told him he'd have to start doing that himself. Which, for a while, he did. (Haven't checked recently).

Manish can do the same thing. I didn't copy his rants for the same reason I stopped copying Ashy's. Too much trouble. They need to learn how to rant on their own, in an appropriate place: the "I Hate Church of the Churchless" blog.

(remember: the link is in the sidebar, ranters)

Tao, I disagree with you when you wrote to Manish ......"Your angry religious fanaticism and hatred towards ex-satsangis and critics is not what Santmat teaches. So to put it simply, you are a blatant fraud. You are not a genuine RS satsangi. You are in violoation of your master's will"....I personally believe that Santmat teachings are solely responsible for making people fanatic. Santmat teaches that satsangis are chosen ones. Because of this view, Satsangis think they are extra special and slowly loose their mental balance.

Brian,
Honestly I don't want Manish's comments to be deleted. Let people see the real face of RSSB satsangis. Thousands of satsangis neglect their families, become fanatic, socially alienate themselves from normal people to save themselves from bad karmas and One Rakesh Bhasin comes and represents them and try to give a glossy picture of RSSB. No, Rakesh Bhasin might be one nice gentleman but not the real face of RSSB. Manish is ! and I have seen thousands like him !!

i think people here are mostly uneducated and illiterate,do not understand easily
first of all i m not representing RSSB
i already said clearly that anyone make fake comments on RSSB guru i will not tolerate it
and i already very much clearly mention I AGREE my language was damn abusive i take it personally myself and is not linked with RSSB faith
i clearly told that i have gone aganist the rules of RSSB that too again i take personally
RSSB has nothing to do with it
but you my dear son has always said bad abt RSSB
well 1st let me answer that i m not here to show my anger of ex satsangis or non satsangis all r free to choose their path
but anyone anyone means anyone who will say aganist my guru and use bad language aganist my guru come on dear son as ur father i will not tolerate..
and again do not link my words and views with RSSB
and yes RSSB doesnt want followers like you i m happy you all who really doesnt deserve to be in RSSB are out of it
gosh JESUS is so great that he done a great job by dragging you all from RSSB
because anyone you ill people are a blot to RSSB and hence by god grace ur all out of the
RSSB,its a nice relief
and i stand by my statament anyone who will try to abuse my master i m saying again i will go out the way...and handle situation in my personal way
and tao my son
why r u highlighing my words and stating it as threat
and teaching me rules of voilation my dear son
ur still a kid in front of me behave like a kid,
dont try to teach ur father..
i was again happy to see ur younger brother sapient
he claims he has seen thousands like me..
my dear innocent 2nd son sapient,grown up my child..
you n tao still dont know who i m and what i m,
so better keep ur views with u ..
even brains BRAIN is as little as his grandchild..
he too has to learn a lot...
and tao my spoiled son please do not teach me what to do and what not to..ok dear i m very much aware abt what i m doing and what i can do ..
you just take care of urself..
and ravi my dear brother i m sorry...that i used that language but that doesnt has any link to RSSB or INDIA..and why dear ur feeling ashamed,
people lie tao and others deserve this sort of language and treatment they do not deserve a soft n respectful treatment at all
and ravi have u been to these blogs completly and see how tao has represented RSSB and his guru..
TAO who is equally to dust of my feet has already gone out of LIMIT
and i even warn brain but i think now i have to handle it with a different idea so that i can seek a permanent solution..
wait and cheer up guys i will be soon back
till then take care..

Dear Tao,
I know that you are such an old, learned, knowledgeable and spiritual person. But you get enraged by the remarks of others. Probably in your spiritual uplift you have reached the state of SHIVA. This state of SHIVA is not easy to achieve. A little up is very calm and beautiful.
GOD BLESS US ALL
With regards,

Manish, by the grace of the Master of this blog (namely, me), I am leaving this comment up so people can see what a dogmatic follower of RSSB sounds like.

But don't count on being back -- at least not for long -- if you continue to make insulting, ranting, profane comments that don't have any other meaningful content.

You're on comment probation. Behave yourself. Or you'll find new comments deleted, just like I deleted your previous ones.

rakesh ji i need to talk to u personally can i please have ur email address.
its a request.

and brain i admit
and i m sorry for my behavious
i apologize everyone

what all i did was a bit of harsh way to find out the genuineness of this blog,well congratulations everybody i love this blog..
i think this is the place i will find the real truth for which i m also even searching from long time..
so everybody just cheered up
lets get back to the real work of finding the real truth
and brain please do help me and tao you also please do help me..
i m also on this path and seen many people faith trembling?
what can be the reason?
please guide me?
and forgot what all happened..
i know the way i choose was bit unacceptable,
but i have come to know that here people are more sensible.

you all might be thinking why i went to that extent..
well its just because i have never found any genuine website or blog or community which are open in discussion
i have seen many blogs where everyone is busy abusing eachother..and trying to prove their self..
thank god here its nothing like that..
i have keen interest in spirituality and keep on reading many books..may be kabir,mirdad,Buddhism,gurunanak dev,osho,rssb,bible,
but havent reached a point where in i can say yeah im convinced and satisfied..
so dear members lets continue with the blog..
thanks..
and yes brain you can delete all the comments which were from me..
and now atleast do not delete..
we r a member now :)

Whoa!

I feel like I left town for a week and came back to discover a tornado has ripped through it.

I love this blog.

Manish, don't worry Dude. I can I understand it is very difficult to hear criticism about someone you love.

Sometimes we forget that.

Manish, pardon my skepticism, but I'm doubtful whether I can trust you. My intuition is that you're putting me (and others) on. Meaning, in case this English slang isn't familiar to you, you're trying to appear to be someone you're not.

I find it difficult to believe that you've changed from being such an ardent supporter of RSSB and Sant Mat to a "churchless" seeker of truth. But I'm a semi-trusting person, and will leave up your comments for now.

manish you can mail me on RAKESH1958ATGMAIL.COM

tao i said what i wanted to..
it was a circus indeed a wierd way to know that whether i m on rite place or not..
as i have been on wrong places many times earlier
so now everyone cheer up..
lets get back on track

happy blogging everybody..

and dear tao why r u after manish arora the fashion designer
he is not a RSSB follower

the prodigal son has returned for a quick peep in only to find the high priests of the churchless still at it with their intolerant goading rhetoric aimed at their church-going brethren.

the moral of the story is its ok to be a potty-mouthed threatening thug, but only if you have been ordained, not by Baba-Ji but by Baba-Brian.

First there was Darwins Bulldog, then there was Dawking's rotweiler and now there's Brian's chawawa with an IQ of 170. LMAO, what a load of horsemanure.

Actually the analogy breaks down a bit, since Darwin and Dawkins were trying to champion genuine free-thought, not puffed-up north american intolerant nonsense. i mean when was the last time a truly great american mind was produced? hell they had to confiscate all the nazi scientisits to have any chance.

Do you really think its correct form to attack someone else' cherished beliefs so brazingly and then get upset when u get it back? You high-IQ hacks are no more than a bunch of yeehah cowboys with no idea.

LMAO you okes really need to get over yourselves.
As I said, thicker than a sack of hammers.

[Note: this comment refers to some other comment(s) that were deleted by the Grand Poohbah Master of this blog. As I've said before, if you want to rant about how useless this blog is, go to "I Hate Church of the Churchless." I have less and less tolerance for hateful comments on this blog. Passionate debate about issues: good. Ridiculous rants: bad. Such is my Godlike ruling --Brian]

Smack & Jalaludin,

You might excuse them but you must ask the Question, would the Master approve of such verbal & imminent physical abuse as directed by Manish?!

No....in fact no faith or religion would approve such actions.

Again I say, totally unbecoming of a Satsangi and what the faith is supposed to stand for.

Another thing, I am an initiate so is Brain & TAO....so whatever abuse is directed at us is being directed to fellow brothers and fellow initiates. If you want to UPSET your Master continue with this!!!

Bye the Bye I did question the Master on views expressed on websites and he said quote "they are entitled to their views". Who is anyone to judge!

We have decided on another Path. Satsangis should accept that as HIS will!!

We discuss and debate here on the principals and beliefs of RS and other faiths. We do not judge and abuse others. But as you can clearly see, we are clearly judged by others who should know better.......Again I say only one thing to them................Practice what you Preach!

Thats funny George. Nobody in this blog attacked or not not attacked anybody's beliefs. People have skepticism about certain paths and beliefs and they discuss it in their free time. If you feel attacked, just stop browsing these blogs. Its a free web and you have a choice to visit or not visit certain sites. I never visit porn sites, thats my choice:)

Have you ever seen a abusive discussion between Rakesh, Tao and Brian. At least I haven't, even though they all have very completely different set of ideas. The problem is with cultic minded satsangis (a majority of them belong to this category). There are three kinds of them:

a) A true cultic: Who never questions anything. He is in a complete surrender stage. Though the meaning of surrender in RSSB is different. It means living in a completely delusional state without questioning anything. If you have questions, kill your intellect. Such satsangis will never visit such sites. They think they might be doing a bad karma by reading anything against RSSB.

b) A cultic in making: Here lies the base of RSSB. These are the people who think they have found something special and they are the chosen ones and everybody else is living in hell. They get angry and abusive with everybody who even questions RSSB. They can dump their own families in the process of becoming cultic, but with other satsangis they are obsessively polite:
"RadhaSoami Ji
How are you Ji
Could you do this for me Ji
I will be obliged Ji
Thank you so much Ji
Thank you again Ji"
:)
c) Protective Cultics:
They are the one who always read such blogs secretly and defend the angry cultic in making whenever needed.

-And there are other nice, genuine seeker out there too. Like Brian was for thirty years. And RakeshJi is Still there :). They question themselves openly, grasp the best things everywhere and keep changing and keep growing.

hmm, Wasn't there a comment from George here. Seems like it got deleted or I need caffeine :)

sapient, there was. Then there wasn't. Now there is. Such is the almost-divine power exercised by the Creator (of this blog) as my Mauj (Will) flows in a never-ending consciousness cascade of whimsy and "I feel like..."

George's comment fell into the category of those which attack the purpose of this blog, while taking part in this blog's activities. That doesn't make sense. But then, as you said, cultic types don't worry about making sense.

I liked your own comment. You nailed George, Ashy (in all his name guises), and other similar types to the dogmatic wall. What they can't stand is open, reasoned, discussion. They like to scream at churchless people who are happily talking, "You can't talk that way!"

Well, yes we can. Like you said, if they're offended by the conversations here, they can head off to another part of the Internet.

brain i really wanted to ask you why after being in one path for so long years you turned down to be the baba of churchless.....

and one more thing brain i wanted to ask you when you got inititated followed the path and later on have come out of it..
are u following some other path?
if yes?
can you gaurantee urself that you will be satisfied with that path and you are sure that after years again you will be back with some other conclusions and views?
and if ur not following any other path?
then what is ur present belief?

sorry i meant to say after years again you will not be back with someother views n conclusions?
like it happened with RSSB?

Manish, This Blog owner's name is Brian not Brain.

Also why do you think there is a need of a 'belief system'? Life is a journey. Just live it sincerely. Look at God in the eyes of your kids, parents, husband/wife, relatives, neighbors, pets. Don't get caught in the material rat race but don't be guilty about having material things when you have gained them with sincere hard work and they are helping you living the life comfortably.

Try practicing calming your mind, do your regular meditation but don't be guilty and scared that if you are unable to do your meditation, you will be dragged by a imaginary bulldozer of a phony so called God!

Help your family in day to day chores, instead of cooking and cleaning as a free slave at so called sewa sites.(I know, Indian men have a huge amount of ego for doing house work). Don't let your kid's childhood be a history without you be a part of it somewhere in the cache:) Give the gift of free thinking to your kids instead of conditioning them with any cultic view. If RSSB is for them, they will be there anyway but blocking them from the other views will do only harm to them.

RADHAAAASOAMI..:)
(Bowing down, almost breaking my back...but at least I can prove that I am over polite satsangi!!

Brian,

I too am a little skeptical about Manish's apparent change of heart and weird method to determine the "genuineness" of this blog by trolling. Not sure how that would achieve anything.


Sapient,

I fully agree with your comments to George. Manish was quite abusive and cultic in his earlier comments.

"RADHAAAASOAMI..:)
(Bowing down, almost breaking my back...but at least I can prove that I am over polite satsangi!!"

That's funny :)

I've also noticed some over politeness in my local community, not sure where it comes from or if it is only with satsangis but I've always detested that part of things/people around me. It's like why should I hang around after satsang and make idle chat with people I don't even know, pretending that I like them to an extreme extent. I never understood fake politeness in general.

Manish,

How did abusive language and "harshness" as you claim help you determine how genuine this blog is? I don't mean any offence. I just don't understand the utility of your approach. Please explain further.

thanks sapient for correcting me,


but when we r born without having our control to it and we will die one day that too we will have no control over it
we think something and something happens
someone who drinks n smoke sometimes have healthy life
who never does..have a bad dreadful life..
sometimes who work hard wasnt able to earn a penny and sometimes who doesnt work much become millionaire..
well my question is everything is out of our control and we shud accept it there is some power behind all this control..
if man can think and can be the creator of many things
then the one who made man will be some one whom we cant even compare or even think anything nearer to him..
now we have to have a belief system,


because without any belief system how can we lead to a valid point..
when we r taught my parents teachers..business colleagues ...so as by masters we r thought the way of life and the purpose of life,


IN TRUTH EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE IS A SHADOW OF BELOVED
AND PUR SEEKING IS HIS SEEKING
AND OUR WORDS ARE HIS WORDS
WE SEARCH FOR HIM HERE AND THERE
WHILE LOOKING RIGHT AT HIM.
SITTING BY HIS SIDE WE ASK
O BELOVED WHERE IS MY BELOVED?
RUMI..


WHERE IS ROOM IN THE IMAGINATION FOR HIS ESSENCE,THAT THE LIKE OF HIM SHOULD COME INTO THE IMAGINATION?HOW SHOULD I ? NOT A VEIN OF MINE IS SENSIBLE DESCRIBE THAT FRIEND WHO HATH NO PEER?
RUMI

and my another q?
are we just born to die?
is this the reason we born when we have to die?
then why we all are after materialistic world for the joy and happiness that last for few years till we r fit and alive..
well every single invention of a man has a purpose every invention of the creator has a purpose theres nothing without purpose
so shdnt this life given to us for a purpose..

and if we r just born to die
then why we go thru so misery
sometimes joy sometimes sad
study hard
graduate
work hard for career
work hard for money
maintain all relationship
marriage
children..
one desires gets fulfilled other arise?
we lose our health to gain money and the health which is lost while gaining money ..hatch back all the earnings as the expense occurred for health..
when everything has to be left behind..
no one is going to accompany us ..
so isn'1t it a valid point
that there shud be a purpose behind the human birth?

WEll I JUST READ tao brain and rose comment
and frankly speaking i agree wid u and understaand completely when you ppl say that u all lost faith in me..
i totally agree with u

and what way i adopted yeah i think i applied a very wrong stratergy at a very right place
and i regret for it
through my heart i apolozise everyone whom had faced my rude harsh n abusive behaviour..
actually i will not elobrate more because i no more think any of you are fool here..
i had very sad..bad experiences else where
where ppl directly abuse in their form discussions..

so i was just not sure whether this blog was among them
or really a blog where one can openly discuss things..

and yeah i also agree that there are many such satsangis u ppl refer to..
even there are few whom i hate
for actually i shudnt...but still i do..
i m also sometimes get carried away with few arrogant sewadars..
but i have one genuine point to discuss here..
we cant blame the master for anything,
yeah its also true that any action created by satsangi will have its effect on guru..
but again its sad..because master is no where involved in it ..

i think its simple as it is..
there are good people everywhere and bad people everywhere
its just the combination of good and bad prevails everywhere..
but if you all have any other point of view then please carry on

and yes my dear tao..i sincerely apologise u for my behaviour..
i know i choosen a very odd wrong way..
may be i think i tried a new idea and perhaps it didnt worked at all..
and yeah as i have done a mistake so in reward you guys can take ur own time to trust back me ..

and onething abt honesty..
why wud i have disclosed the whole thing to u guys..
if i wud been a dishonest person i wud have either continued that way
or else wud have dissapered..
but none the things happened
and i m here in front of u all guys
with the modest confession ever..
now you all r smart enuff to decide..
because as per my understanding TAO and brain both are very spiritual persons..
and i liked the quality of brain ...as a writer the way he writes and express is very impressive
and hey do not think i m flattering you to gain any space in this blog
nope...not at all
rite now true manish arora is talking to u..
the previous manish arora born for a reason
and hence died..
he is dead..
and the real manish is back..

tao u asked me abt my real background..
well dear sure i will def in detail reveal abt my real background but first you guys gain that sort of trust in me
because my real background will reveal some real true experience which are very true
but rite now i do not want to disclose as you all are suspecting me
and those revealing experience will go void..
and i do not want to waste it..
i will wait for the rite time to reveal and will let you know..in detail abt many wonderful truths.....

well rose abt ur question how harshness made me know the genuiness of this blog
well in love we oversee many things
by being just polite we can never know the other person true intentions and feelings
but when you start abusing and being harsh..then we get to know how the real other person is?
because the way he react will prove a lot abt his intention character experience maturity and so on..
though tao replied me in bit agressive manner but thats again natural because my statements were too harsh and abusive.

i just wanted to know onething that after following this path ..though they have lost faith in it...but onething i have noticed they follow the principles of path which are anyhow good for everyone to follow
because theres no harm in it and theres lot to internal satisfaction in it..
when we stay cool and put hold on our temptations and anger..which is again good for health :)

i hope i was able to reply to the queries..
yeah though i replied in a shortcut manner as i m not that experienced person who has the are to express in a rite way like the one brian and tao does..
they express better even better far much better then me..
this is something i m gonna learn here..


and one more important thing i forgot to mention
no matter how harsh and abusive i was
i really liked the way brian replied to me everytime
with so much of respect and decency involved in it..

without loosing his cool..
gr8

And there are other nice, genuine seeker out there too. Like Brian was for thirty years. And RakeshJi is Still there :). They question themselves openly, grasp the best things everywhere and keep changing and keep growing.

Posted by: sapient | May 11, 2009 at 10:16 AM

.......................................
Dear Sapient,

I am least concerned about the organization, RSSB. My sole concern is myself and the Master. Listening to spiritual disourses at any RSSB center in India or abroad either by Baba Gurinder Singh ji or any other preacher reminds me of my Master. That is all.

Truly, I had enough heard of spirituality from Master Charan Singh. My life shall remain too short to follow his advice on meditation.

MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL,

WITH REGARDS

Wow, such an interesting thread. Doing my best to see all sides of the situation… a bit confusing.

Manish

I’d like to speak from my grandmother self so you can’t pull seniority on me. Just thought I would get a little dictatorial like some of my elder brothers.

So… Manish, please have respect, do not threaten, do not use vile language and try not to over react. Lighten up brother.

tAo has been using a much more moderate tone in his views and he’s quite on the mark when he uses his “deep penetrating insight and discriminative wisdom” :)


Sar Bachan paragraph 160:

"Those who slander a saint and those who praise him will both be saved. But if a disciple of a saint speaks evil of him, he will be the loser. Such conduct from him is intolerable".

So a satsangi need not be concerned about those who slander his/her guru for they will be saved.

Only those who consider themselves disciples of the guru should avoid slandering their own guru.

shamsita aka ashy (and his mate George)

“if they at all for one instant deem themselves to have any miniscule amount of insight or understanding then they would rather remain silent”

about that insight or understanding… not much silence from you two..

To those who feel they are highly evolved faithful RS followers.....
Keep preaching....
Keep satisfying your intellect by devising elaborate answers, which satisfy your urge to make others who quest....and seriously it is a quest for internal enlightenment feel more empowered by your continual justification.
You are not trying to change our ways but trying to justify your ways.....otherwise you would not be here.
I continue to love who I am and where I am going. I continue to live in peace with myself and all my surroundings. I continue to be in awe of nature as it is in me!

We have no hang ups......and finally and yet again I say to you...........Practice and make your Master proud...you only waste precious seconds...running away with your INTELLECT!!

During this day I had a sudden realisation or an epiphany if you like. I realised all those in the RS stable, cannot Stand the fact that there are indeed individuals who are initiated now firmly in the No RS stable.
They cannot believe or understand why on earth someone can oppose such a so called Perfect faith!
They are angry because this is not supposed to Happen. Their very idea of utopia has been shattered.
They cannot understand WHY & HOW such things have transpired.
And now they worry a ripple affect may result, or family members may question or ultimately their own sense of judgement be altered. They fear, how many more are visiting this site and others like it.
They fear the wrath of their own mind and are trying desperately to Put out this fire!!
As your own Master says....'Running around like headless chickens trying to put out the fire elsewhere, when your own house is burning down!'

The problem here is whenever you try to put one fire out another one starts. Do you think we few here are the only ones' questioning....do you feel we are the only ones' who doubt....My friends and yes you are my friends {though you may not feel the same} there are many silent and not so silent voices who doubt. Many struggling souls who now question the very essence of RS. Many who have been on the path for decades and been associated in families for generations who now want to know more.
Each generation is evolving and becoming a lot more intelligent than the previous {look at the vast technological advances over the past century and look at your own kids}. You cannot stop the wave once it has started and the people will continue to nurture their intellect and it is God/Creator or whoever you believe in who wishes it so.

If you desperately feel we are in the wrong and desperately know you are in the right.....then let your Master be the judge of that!

I think plenty has been said on this thread and hopefully all sides know where they stand.

"I realised all those in the RS stable, cannot Stand the fact that there are indeed individuals who are initiated now firmly in the No RS stable."

well i do not know about others
i personally do not think at all in that way shin
but frankly speaking again its my persoonal view
i m surprised to see people who at one point trusted their own intellect in choosing the path and again after so many years of struggling when nothing much according to their mind achieved they came out of it....
now i ask you one point when the same mind accepted at one point to choose the mind and the very same mind had choosen to get out of it..
so dont u think its ones own mind creating doubts and shaking us to get into the trap ..
but onething like i wud again like to say
everyone goes to school one not everyone pass and come with higher grades students who doesnt study well tend to fail no doubt..
but that doesnt mean you have to blame the dean of the school..
its all personal student choice and his virtue..


"They are angry because this is not supposed to Happen. Their very idea of utopia has been shattered."

i think they arent angry for ppl who had faith getting out from RS..perhaps they are getting angry that the way you ppl suddenly started rasing certain doubts after been following a path with devotion a one point
so this sudden change and the way you people are discussing is bit rigid..
so might they get angry for which actually they shudnt

"They fear, how many more are visiting this site and others like it."

sorry to say ur very wrong in thinking so shin
as i do not know u know or not
while before getting introduce to RS path theres a book for who r new to this path
which says everything in detail abt RS path and ppl who have criticized RSSB..they even mention the books name in which RSSB has been criticized..and they have clearly mentioned after building faith and when you totally convinced and then you wanted to follow this path your most welcome..
the real true RSSB followers knows the truth and he will not at all mind seeing any numbers of these websites..
and onething
time change and technology change but remember ppl mind never changed..
from the begnining there were euff critics abt RSSB..and its nt a big deal..its so normal..
but as that time was not advanced critics happend thru word of mouth later on books and now on interent
and people here are more open because they can hide the identity..
if not people would never open up to this extent in they reveal their true self..

"Many struggling souls who now question the very essence of RS. Many who have been on the path for decades and been associated in families for generations who now want to know more."

as i said above they will be people who will be having shaking beliefs and faith and without doing their utmost best and hence not achieveing what has to be theres a room for doubt and thats the beautiful trick of mind..
look we choose this path with mind
got distracted with mind
we r here discussing with mind
so mind has a vital role in playing our lives.

and in previous post lot has written about babani now i cant disclose more in detail i m very well known to babanis family and what all has written abt babanis story is totally untrue..
its completely a sort of rumour may be came out of gossip or from other path people..
as you know RSSB has three branches are the one from dayal bagh are always aganist RSSB beas,so they may spread many fake stories..


"Each generation is evolving and becoming a lot more intelligent than the previous {look at the vast technological advances over the past century and look at your own kids}. You cannot stop the wave once it has started and the people will continue to nurture their intellect and it is God/Creator or whoever you believe in who wishes it so."

Again it depends upon individual choice..
1st by becoming more intellect we can only get more confused..

as far my experience is concerned i m associated with may RS families even my own set of relations n families who from decades and generations are into it
with the same amt of faith trust n belief,
they neither had any such question neither have nor will have..and this reply is at my own personal level and experience..

"If you desperately feel we are in the wrong and desperately know you are in the right.....then let your Master be the judge of that!"

well i really feel sorry for who are desperate..
as they shudnt feel any such desperateness fro others view
as they havent come to the path with their acceptance and neither they will change their mind and re enter the RS path again
we shud never interfere anyone and even try to force or impel anyone to join any certain type of path..
choosing it and leaving it both are their own personal choice.


If at the begining they choose the path for a reason the same they left the path for the reason.

but i have another q?
i think many have left this path not just out of faith
but they werent able to achieve the state of mind which was mentioned in RSSB faith n path..
and the one who has followed 30 years cudnt u give more of some time to finally check and get urself confirmed..
has u really gave almost half of ur life to the path i believe u might have achieved what actually have to be achieved..
but as i said its all personal choice.


and i have read somewhere in this blog that this master is so selfish and has no time to meet their disciple well dear now take it just as an example..
i have read waren buffet meet his CEOs
just once in a year..
so if a materalistic ordinary man who is just handling 1000 of employees doesnt get chance to meet everyone..

how come a master of spiritual path having millions of disciple can possible meet every one ..
thats practically not possible..
as ones mere life span according to 75 years is 27375 days..
now tell me?
how can the master meet everyone ..thats quite not possible
and again theres also weakness in us human nature whenever we met we start discussing personal problems business problems..which master said many times saints come for a purpose for a spiritual purpose they dont come on earth to make things better
they just come to liberate the souls and take back to the real place..

thanks


Manish, you don't make much sense. The mind that wasn't in a religion chooses to be in a religion. Then the same mind chooses to be out of the religion.

What is strange about this? If the mind can be trusted to choose a religion, why can't the same mind be trusted to get out of it?

i do not agree with u brian
it was mind that is doing it role

and yeah its indeed strange.. .. ..
if you grandchild after 25 or more years suddenly one day come 2 u and say brian ur not my grand dad dont call me ur grandson
just because some one just for whatsoever reasons if convinced ur grandson to believe that ur not his grandad..
will u not say it a mind game?


and in west people are very much more rational very much more into analysing..
for analsying this life wudnt be sufficient and we will never reach to any goal or will ever get ourself convinced and satisfied.

and i have also seen many of the scriptures here show are presented with totally complete and different aspect and different meaning..

and its done just for personal own convenience to just satisfy the mind.

A Spiritual Lifestyle
What supports the practice of meditation but does not require leaving home, career and family?
A Spiritual Lifestyle

The journey awakens within,
when the songs of remembrance begin,
the child of the Father is lost in the Ocean of Love.
Holding the hand of the Guide,
through the path of confusion inside,
tears become pearls in the silence and passing of time.
The song of remembrance is sung in unlimited rhyme,
the song of remembrance is sung in unlimited rhyme,
Dance away, to the beautiful music you wanted to play,
dance away, in your heart, in your heart.
What is a Spiritual Lifestyle?
Regular daily meditation is the way to build and strengthen your spiritual awareness, experience the natural positive qualities of the soul and achieve freedom from fear. This process is greatly enhanced when your outer lifestyle complements and assists in your spiritual growth. Regular observance of four spiritual pillars, a vegetarian diet, and a balanced routine that incorporates physical and mental relaxation are the elements that comprise a spiritual lifestyle.
Four Spiritual Pillars
A spiritually fulfilling life is based on a foundation of four pillars:
• daily practice of meditation/yoga
• regular spiritual study
• spiritual relationships and fulfilling responsibilities
• the service of humanity
Daily Meditation Practice
Daily meditation/yoga provides the means to explore, discover and reconnect with one's self and with God.
Regular Spiritual Study
Regular, daily spiritual study provides the right quality food for mind and intellect, the two key faculties of the soul.
Spiritual Relationships & Responsibilities
Through the experience of soul-consciousness others are recognized as spiritual beings and a feeling of brotherhood grows. By transcending the divisions of colour, sex and religion, relationships become more smooth and rewarding. The exchange of respect and spiritual love becomes the basis of interaction. The decision to deal with others’ good qualities means there is no longer the give and take of sorrow, rather an emphasis on acceptance and tolerance.
Spirituality is not an escape from life’s responsibilities. You have a responsibility to your immediate relationships—family, colleagues and friends—and it is in those relationships that your ability to apply what you are learning spiritually will also be tested and strengthened.
Spiritual Service
Finding an appropriate way to use your growing spiritual power and understanding for the benefit of others in the wider community is also a method of sustaining your personal growth. Spiritual service occurs on many levels, including spreading peaceful vibrations into the atmosphere and helping others develop awareness of their own spiritual qualities through good wishes and pure feelings.
Vegetarian Diet
In respecting and caring for our bodies, diet needs deep consideration. A vegetarian diet is especially beneficial in developing the clarity, concentration and subtle focus which spiritual development requires.
With an understanding of the power and quality of thoughts and vibrations, we also give attention to the quality of our consciousness as we prepare and eat our food.
Physical & Mental Relaxation
Providing rest and relaxation for the body is as important as it is for the mind. The body will not relax if the mind is not relaxed; however even when the body is injured or ill, it is still possible for the mind to relax. Meditation is an important self-healing component when one is recovering from physical illness.
The timing and extent of physical relaxation activities depends on your personal metabolism as well as your professional and family responsibilities. However it has long been recognised that the most effective time in the daily cycle for meditation and spiritual development is in the early morning, before the routine activities of the day begin. Taking time each morning to meditate, study and understand spiritual principles and values provides both mental and spiritual nourishment for the day to come.

Manish,

You say:

"i have read waren buffet meet his CEOs
just once in a year..
so if a materalistic ordinary man who is just handling 1000 of employees doesnt get chance to meet everyone..

how come a master of spiritual path having millions of disciple can possible meet every one ..
thats practically not possible.."

That is exactly the problem in my opinion. When RSSB started, there were probably less followers and the Master was probably able to devote a lot more time to individual disciples. This would presumably allow for individual coaching and guidance which is what a Master is supposed to do. How can a Master truly fullfil his role if he has no time to individually coach his students?

You seem to like the education metaphor. Well, if we take the same metaphor, one criteria for establishing how good education is, is how many students there are to 1 teacher in any class. If there are too many then the overall standard is low as opposed to few students.

Its not even that easy for satsangis to get an individual meeting with the Master. How are they supposed to get any sort of guidance that way? They are effectively on their own.

Brian,

I think you hit the nail on the head on that one.

It's like when you choose a religion you're encouraged to use your intellect and weigh up the options. But the moment you join this particular religion the mind is demonized!

I completely disagree with the whole idea of the mind being the enemy and the view of it as a separate entity. The mind = the brain and your brain = you. No separation there...

Who is God?
Who has been remembered as the Ocean of Love, the Intellect of the Wise, the Almighty Authority, the Comforter of Hearts, the Truth, The Living Being and the Blissful One?
God

I am the Ocean of Love;
I show you the path of love.
My love remains unbroken and constant.
I cannot forget even one of you.
I have so much love for you,
and My love is unconditional and unlimited.
I am the Beloved.
You have been calling out to Me for a long time.
Who Is God?
We are used to knowing things by seeing them, hearing them, tasting them, touching or smelling them. Most of us have grown up in a ‘seeing–is–believing’ and ‘hands on’ culture and we are used to perceiving things in that way. Because we can’t see, hear, taste, touch or smell God, the question arises – is God for real?
One can reach out to God with pure thoughts and be connected to Him. The soul experiences the response of pure feelings and spiritual strength. God is truth itself and thus can be recognized with the eye of truth.
God: The Supreme Soul
Like us, God is also a soul. Unlike us, He is referred to as the Supreme Soul – the only soul who never takes a body (gross or subtle, human or angelic) of His own. He is beyond the effects of actions and is never subject to the dualities of birth and death, pleasure and pain, success and failure. Being beyond the limits of time of this physical world, He retains absolute knowledge of the universe and all its dimensions.
Where is God?
God lives, not everywhere but somewhere. A thought of God almost always takes the eyes upwards, as though one is perhaps expecting a face to miraculously appear from behind the clouds or to beam down from the moon. Thoughts are powerful. They link one soul to another. If they are properly channelled, thoughts can even go where only the soul can travel – beyond the moon and stars to a dimension of golden red light, the original home of all souls. Immersed in the experience of the warmth of this light, the soul feels as though it is truly at home at last, and with God.
God – The Spiritual Sun
Like the physical sun, which gives light and life indiscriminately to all beings, God is the Spiritual Sun, giving light to all, whomever and wherever they may be. He serves altruistically, without any selfish motives, reminding each one of their innate qualities of love, peace and happiness. This is why He has been remembered in some countries and cultures by the name Shiva, The Benevolent One.
God’s Wisdom, Love and Power
People may wonder why, if God exists, He doesn’t wave a magic wand and fix things, making or at least influencing everyone so that they do exactly what they ‘should’ do. But God never takes away anyone’s freedom of choice. God’s wisdom is to recognize and respect each soul’s individual identity, freedom and inherent goodness. God shares knowledge – a profound understanding of the dualities and dilemmas of love and hatred, happiness and sorrow, victory and defeat, etc. – but He does not make our choices for us. The soul is free to choose ‘to be or not to be’, ‘to love or not to love’. God’s love strengthens the soul’s will to free itself from the distresses caused by vices such as selfish desire, anger, fear, ego and attachment. God’s power helps the soul to recognize its highest potential and to aim for perfection by practising the art of simple living and high thinking. Such practice by a significant number of souls eventually brings about positive change in the whole of humanity.
When you learn to tune your mind in meditation to the mind of God, then whatever the situation, you always have a source of help and strength to draw upon – an infinite reservoir of power and virtues that is only a thought away..

Why Are We Here?
What has a cast of billions, unlimited scenes and contains all the infinite possibilities of human expression and experience?
The Eternal World Drama
And the seasons they go round and round
And the painted ponies go up and down
We’re captive on the carousel of time
We can’t return, we can only look behind
From where we came
And go round and round and round
In the circle game
–Joni Mitchell, The Circle Game
Eternity: Time as a Cycle
It is difficult for the mind to comprehend eternity – no beginning, no end. Reasons ‘why’ are moot and mute when there’s no starting place. If I look at a circle, at a wheel, it is impossible to find the beginning or the end. Can such an image help me understand eternity?
As I look at the natural world around me, I see never – ending cycles everywhere – in the waxing and waning of the moon; in the gradual changing of the seasons; in the measure of time on the face of a clock. Nothing in nature is a straight line. Why should human nature be an exception?
The World Drama Cycle
The World Drama is a story of human souls, their rise and fall, victory and defeat, happiness and suffering, wisdom and ignorance, freedom and bondage. It is the story of the play of good and evil forces, and of the different stages through which human souls pass in five different epochs (acts). It is the story of humanity on its dramatic journey through the cycle of eternity. It is the greatest story ever told… And we all love a good story!
The Five Acts of the World Drama
Act 1 The Golden Age
Act One begins with the early morning scene of a golden age. Each individual manifests the divinity of purity, peace, happiness, love, and truth with complete inner harmony. Their loving actions and interactions are the threads of the fabric of society. These are divine beings whose respect for nature is such that they are served with abundance from the earth. Family life is fulfilling because relationships are based on mutual honesty and trust. The behaviour and attitude of all is selfless and sharing. The integrity of the soul is expressed in its natural wisdom and spiritual accomplishment. It is paradise.
Act II The Silver Age
Act Two continues with an afternoon scene in which a very gradual decline is taking place, unnoticed by the actors, who have significantly increased in number. Even though they are still radiant with love and peace, even though nature is still resplendent with colour and beauty, the original freshness that characterized the morning has gone. The actors are paying greater attention to external form and function and less to inner realities; the experiences of the senses are leaving impressions on the soul. Integrity begins to give way to influence. Material resources are spread a little more thinly to accommodate the growing demand. Although there is no negativity or sorrow, and all remain masters of the arts of life, the quality of everything is slightly less.
Act III The Copper Age
The change from Act Two to Act Three as evening begins is a dramatic one. It is marked by a massive shift in consciousness from self–awareness to self–forgetfulness. This forgetfulness of the true spiritual self creates duality within the minds of the actors. The first traces of conflict within and of external strife appear within the play. This fall from the grace of soul–consciousness into the illusion of body–consciousness brings with it the loss of mastery. Human beings become compelled by a search for power and possessions to compensate for a growing inner void. Even while searching for lost truth and enlightenment they are deceived into believing that accumulating material possessions will bring them security and peace of mind.
Act IV The Iron Age
Act Four finds the stage of the world in total darkness, illusion and despair. There has been an extreme decline in moral, ethical and spiritual values. Human beings are chained to the pillars of immoral practices and habits. Widespread sorrow and unrest have become the norm of human experience. The world is divided into many groups, many of which are pitted against each other in games of power conditioned by self–interest and expediency. The human family is at a breaking point. As the night wears on, the population explodes exponentially until the planet’s resources reach their limits.
Act V The Diamond Age
Act Five consists of only one scene in which the Director of the Drama becomes the primary Actor. He appears quietly in one corner of the stage and begins to unveil the truths inherent in the story of human life: the truth of the immortality of the soul, its true, eternal relationship with God and the true path to upliftment and fulfilment. These words of truth stir, in the actors, deep memories of their long distant past; there is an awakening. Standing at the dawn they can again observe the carousel of life in its entirety – from divinity to duality, from gold to iron – each soul melding with the eternal rhythm within every moment until it comes full circle. With love for God in their hearts and truth once again permeating their being, the actors dance their way gradually off the stage, united in their vision of the approaching golden morning. The darkness of the night slowly lightens into the dawn of the new day. As the curtain comes down on Act Five, it rises again to mark the beginning of Act One. Humanity has come full circle: the old journey of life has ended; a new world begins.
Has the script of this drama rung any bells? Have you ever experienced Dיja vu – the feeling that you’ve been here before? What if the story is true – that you really have come to this place in time once again?.

Manish, that's enough preaching. This is a churchless blog, not a forum for anyone to preach dogma. I've deleted a couple of your comments, which were getting tiresome. Lighten up. Respond to the content of a post; start your own blog if you want to preach.

Dear Manish,

I am glad that at least you have achieved the state of mind as mentioned in RSSB. Keep it up.If you wish to strengthen your faith please go through the book Ruhani Dairy Part I and The Master Answers.

If you and other visitors to this blog wish to,I would love to have an answer to a question, Here it goes:

The title of this post is; A Sant Mat Guru answers a Question with : Don't Question.
IMO this is the perfect answer, if not what should be the proper answer a Guru should give.

I know some Area Secretaries and some sevadars in the publication department of RSSB are also visitors of this blog, maybe your answers can be helpful to them.

Thanks

i m sorry rose you havent understood my point at all and gave the reply and just wasted ur valuable time.

its is not at all possible,dont ask and think and discuss abt the things which arent possible at all..

if there are 100 of ppl who are not able to understand the RSSB path and with stand their faith..there are 1000s of building faith..

but still i m not able to find any valid discussion point till now from anyone of us..
might be it tao,shin brian or u..rose..

i m seeing everyone is just trying to put ones point of view
and according to the others post just reflecting back with other idea of the faith....

well what all can say..
nothing much left to discuss anything more here..

because when all the mature people following a path any path not just RS and later on turning down their faith..
it self shows that mind and intellect are the tools used by mmost of the ppl here..

and when by associated in one path for 30 years and when you all are enable to understand the words of the master how can you people will understand the words of disciple..

well so all are welcome to put your points of view and can freely carry what ever pleases ur mind and intellect
i m off for few days,

thanks

Well said Rose,

A close member of my family, who is reaching the grand old age of 100, sat with the Great Master on a few occasions and said it was easy to talk to him and get guidance at any time............Now he says it is nigh on IMPOSSIBLE.....Where indeed is the guidance....What pray tell is the purpose to having a living Master!

Manish, you're using your mind and intellect to write comments on this blog! What the heck are you talking about, when you say that the mind and intellect is a bad thing?

Why are you using your own mind and intellect? Why do gurus use their mind and intellect when they write books, answer questions, and talk to disciples?

Because mind and intellect are natural parts of us, like our bodies are. They aren't something separate from us, to be despised, they are us.

Juan wrote:

"The title of this post is; A Sant Mat Guru answers a Question with : Don't Question.
IMO this is the perfect answer, if not what should be the proper answer a Guru should give."

--If the master doesn't want people to ask questions why does he have question-answer sessions? This is absurd. It is just a cop out because some things simply have no answers like, "Where did Sat Purush come from?" If he were honest, he would admit it instead of making the disciple feel like a creep for asking a question in a question-answer session. It's tough to keep up the image of GIHF. I know. My wife doesn't buy it at all. "Why didn't you start dinner earlier you lazy SOB?" My dear, you know it is not wise to ask questions of GIHF.

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