"The guru is coming!" Strange things disciples do.

Here are some interesting observations about Gurinder Singh's apparent upcoming visit to the Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) center in England, Haynes Park.

Singh is the "perfect living master" of the organization and is considered by the faithful to be God in Human Form (GIHF). So, not surprisingly, a visit from God creates a lot of excitement.

Some of which I used to share, when I was an active member of RSSB. But I passed up quite a few chances to drop everything and make a frantic dash to see the guru when he made one of his surprise trips to the western United States.

My attitude, which is echoed in some thoughts below, was that if seeing the guru had salutary effects on people, you'd expect that frequent GIHF-observers would have gotten some benefits from all their devotion.

This wasn't evident to me. Not that this should be expected. People go to see a rock band that they're big fans of and don't come away changed either. They simply have a good time.

Which also seems to be the goal of many, if not most, of those who are looking forward to the guru's Haynes Park visit. Nothing wrong with that.

What's strange, though, is how strange disciples act when word gets out that "the guru is coming!" Read on...

From a Church of the Churchless correspondent who lives in England:

Baba Ji [Gurinder Singh] is reportedly visiting Haynes Park over the Easter Weekend.

It seems such a ritual when this happens. Basically, the rumor mill starts, based on Baba Ji's schedule and the fact his sons have been educated here and live in the UK. Though on occasions he ends up in Spain to oversee his business etc.

The sangat [disciples] then quickly clock on to this and the Hierarchy send out vague messages to friends and family, indicating their need to attend Seva [volunteer work] on a particular date. The Hierarchy do this with an air of secrecy but the ones they tell inevitably tell others.

For me, it was my mother who phoned and mentioned we should put our names down for seva as the family were attending....”reading between the lines”.....

It's quite a farce and I feel it as such.

We have to all then ensure our names are down by Sunday 7pm OR you will be turned back!!

Come the day of Seva, many have to forfeit their meditation as they need to get up so early and travel long distances; line up at the gates; confirm their names are down (if not be sent to the dreaded PortoCabin); have cups of tea and generally mill about all day trying to find seva where possible. As there are so many attending, not enough seva is available.

Then around mid morning Baba Ji takes his walks and everyone lines up or sits down for him to pass and all “bask in his darshan!!” [looking at the guru]
 When it's time for lunch the same thing happens and at times he sits in the canteen, where again everyone “basks in his glory”.

Thereafter shabds [devotional songs] are sung by mainly young men & women, some of which are translated for them as they cannot read Punjabi/Hindi etc. This ritual evokes tearful emotions amongst the crowds, especially the women!

Then a further 2/3 hours pass, where the sangat will either just mill about waiting for the Q&A session or carry on with the seva allotted to them.

As a side issue, many of the sangat go there for a social gathering. Many youngsters seem to be building “relationships” with the opposite sex and many of the “Mums” of an Indian persuasion are plotting to get their sons and daughters engaged!

At last the time arrives for the Q&A session, usually in the evening. Again, some of the so-called satsangis rush to get into the queue (some, especially the elderly, would push there way through - what have they learnt!!). They are then led into the tent where they may wait up to an hour before Baba Ji enters.

Before this happens, due to the sheer numbers, it is requested all the sangat move forward and squeeze as closely as possible to the person in front and to the side. This results in a very uncomfortable couple of hours.

Baba Ji then arrives and the session starts. As we all know the Q&A's are the usual mix and most responses remain as discussed on your forum. But on occasion you do get the insightful questions, Unfortunately these are answered in the vague manner which we have become accustomed to.

It then ends and the sangat make their way back home and due to distances/time etc, yet again forfeit their meditation for the next morning!

What is my point to all this?

Well, only to highlight the futile, ritualistic nature of such events/meetings.

Many who show so much emotion and dedication while there are soon back into their old habits. Others who are strong advocates and continually voice their opinions appear to get renewed sustenance and further expel their gospels but on most occasions.....to suit their own needs and social standings.
Others go around telling friends how beautiful the occasion was, only to make them feel down, and then continue to contort some of the answers to suit their own thought process according to Sant Mat.

Sangat members on their return home would then highlight “gaps” in Baba Ji's schedule for the whole ritual to repeat itself.

In my observation and many of those around me, it does not really benefit the sangat as they appear to be back in their old ways as soon as the event ends. It does though benefit the centre as a few more projects are completed or near completion and there is an increase in money seva [donations].

It goes without saying, I will not be attending.

Comments

[tAo]

And beleive it or not, in just a few short months from now, they're going to be doing it all over again in Peteluma California!... namely, thousands of spiritually retarded dimwits will be dancing the goofy guru-cult shuffle, while the master's mindless goons load the mystic money-seva bags into the trunk of his limo.

[Juan]

Babaji(Gurinder Singh) made surprise visits to Spain and U.K. with his wife in January this year and I am sure he will end up visiting Spain also this time.

I don't think he is having any business in Spain,he was working with Balani's in Spain. His business is far more lucrative than any other business,and the master's marked souls need more than one limos to load the seva bags.

[Brian]

tA0's comment made me recall about how we'd hear in northwest Oregon that Gurinder Singh was making a surprise visit to Petaluma (north of San Francisco) about 15 hours before he was to speak.

That left enough time to drive 12 hours or so for most of the length of Oregon, across the Siskiyous, and down to Petaluma -- if people could drop what they were doing on a moment's notice.

Of course, it was a spiritual pilgrimage, so some people did the all-night driving thing.

But I figured that once I'd get there, the main message from the guru would be "Look within for inner truth." So what's the point of traveling so far just to be told the obvious that you already know?

Still, like I said in this post it's enjoyable to meet up with old friends, eat good food, and see a different part of the country.

Viewing a guru-visit as something divinely special, though -- this is much more open to debate.

[tucson]

I savor my release from bondage to the RS cult.

tAo, I sent a couple of emails.

[Dead to Life]

Irony In Human Form

I'm dropping everything today.
HE is coming.
Or. At least. HE may.

Even though it means I'll have failed to do that thing HE'LL say that I must do.

But I just know HE wants me there.

HE'LL pull the strings and get someone else do all of those worldly things that my family and friends expect, need, and want me to do.

They'll understand. They know that I just have to be there when my Gurinder sings.

He's my buddy. He's my pal. He's the one I'm acting like now.

[Alive not Dead]

Stupidity In Human Form

The fools dropped everything today, including all reason and common sense.
Their guru-delusions had got the best of them.
But at least the fraud conned them out of their money, and gave them nothing in return.

Even though it means they have failed to do what they believe in, because they are hypocrites.

But they don't know what fools they are.

But their fraudulent guru will pull their strings and make them to dance to his unhappy tune, neglecting their families and friends and acting like cult lunatics.

Their families will suffer. They know that Gurinder is one of the reasons behind this cult sickness.

He's not anyone's buddy. He's not anyone's pal. He's the fraud who is responsible.

[George]

I read your guys remarks about money above and for me money is often the plainest sign of bullshit spirituality or a sham. But then i read this account from someone else and one does wonder exactly who has the agenda:

"Anyone is most welcome to scrutinize and try and discredit the running of the RSSB society, you will never find a cleaner run more scrupelous and above board organization anywhere on the planet, and believe me I have looked at a few. The Sant Mat Guru's do not utilize or partake of one morsel or farthing or rupee of sangat money anywhere anytime for their own personal use, every rupee or paisa is accounted for to the absolute last iota, and they are completely self sufficient in their own right outside of sangat practices and organizational management. They live and keep their own families from their own income without a dime absconding from any sangat coffers.

The RSSB society is actually a rather large organization by now, it started over 100 years ago and originally the Dera in Beas near Amritsar northern Punjab was a tiny settlement starting off as 1 sole mud hut where Guru Baba Jaimal Singh settled after leaving Agra where his Guru Seth Shiv Dayal Soami Ji Maharaj kept his sangat.

The Great Master Huzur Maharaj Sawan Singh grew the Dera and built many of the original buildings using income from his own private family farms donated to the management, upkeep and growth of the colony. Since then it has grown in leaps and bounds, and by now is practically a reasonable sized town, no more even a village, let alone a settlement.

Such an organization needs funding, it operates schools, free private hospitals, free kitchens for the needy and hungry, eye camps where thousands of cataracts are removed from disciples and non disciples eyes free of charge annually, free accommodation, kitchens, libraries, hospitals, guest houses, transport, etc, etc, for the 1000's of visitors both western and eastern that visit there annually.

So fundamentally this organization and its subsidiary satellite international centers of free spiritual enterprise needs funding, this is a fact of life, and the only way such funding is able to be fed through the system is by way of donation.

This is hardly even discussed, it is the one single organization that I have ever come across that does not even mention or promote the need or requirement for anyone whatsoever to donate to, as do nearly every other religious or spiritual organization throughout the planet. The money seva is carried out absolutely voluntary without ever a hint of coercion or even a mention made about it, and like the spiritual aspect of this system or path, it is absolutely personal whether one wishes to donate anything whatsoever or not, it is never an issue one way or the other with anyone."

And then this from the Wiki:

Food

To feed the visitors three meals a day, several approaches are taken. The langar (a place where food is served free of charge) is the primary means. The free langar complex covers over 48 acres and operates around the clock. Capable of feeding up to 300,000 people per meal, 50,000 in a single sitting, it has a mostly volunteer staff who prepare and serve simple but nourishing food.

Shelter

The colony is visited by people from around the world and all walks of life. To provide temporary accommodations for everyone, a variety of facilities are offered, all free of charge. There are a number of guest hostels with individual rooms and attached baths, hostels with dormitory-style rooms, and other large buildings to house visitors.

[Doc]

Right George. Everyone has an agenda, the trick is to find out the truth.

I stayed at the Dera for 3 months in the fall/winter of 1976 and money was never mentioned. In fact, I wasn't allowed to give any donation while I was there. I also got bronchitis pretty bad and received free medical treatment and medicine in the little clinic they had there, before the big hospital was built. When I got back to the U.S. I sent some money to the Dera since I didn't want to feel like a freeloader for the 3 months of free room and board.

[Juan]

Some more points to add to the information given to George

Anyone is most welcome to scrutinize and try and discredit the running of the RSSB society.

Of course you would have been welcomed to scrutinize, but not everyone, if it was so the administrators could have displayed the accounts and report every month/year on the notice boards for the sangat. It can be possible that this organization is a bit more transparent than other religious organizations.

The Sant Mat Guru's do not utilize or partake of one morsel or farthing or rupee of sangat money anywhere anytime for their own personal use, every rupee or paisa is accounted for to the absolute last iota, and they are completely self sufficient in their own right outside of sangat practices and organizational management.

You should gather some information, most of the lands bought by the organization have been registered and accounted on a much lower amount than the actual amount paid for, so the difference paid for the lands does not appear in the books. At least in India Millions of Rupees in cash are transferred by Sevadars to Beas frequently which do not appear in the books.

They live and keep their own families from their own income without a dime absconding from any sangat coffers.

All the workers working on the agricultural lands of Charan Singh were sevadars (there could be an exception) and the seeds, pesticides etc. were also given by some faithfuls. Regarding the present Master Gurinder Singh, maybe his ex-employer is still paying him.

The Great Master Huzur Maharaj Sawan Singh grew the Dera and built many of the original buildings using income from his own private family farms donated to the management

The private family farms were bought by Huzur Sawan Singh after he became full time Guru, out of which some were donated to the society. Of course, all the donations are for the master not for the organization.

Free kitchens for the needy and hungry.

Why go far, just take few needy and hungry with you from Beas Village and you will come to know whether it is for them or for people who are not needy. During the years 1968 to 1972, there were many needy and hungry from nearby places who used to be thrown outside the Dera by the Sevadars, and even the then Master, Charan Singh announced at various occasions that eating food at langar for free would add to your karmas.

It is the one single organization that I have ever come across that does not even mention or promote the need or requirement for anyone whatsoever to donate to, as do nearly every other religious or spiritual organization throughout the planet. The money seva is carried out absolutely voluntary without ever a hint of coercion or even a mention made about it.

One of the teachings of Sant Mat is to donate at least 10% of your income. During the decade of 60, the high ranking officials of the organization had to put some sort of pressure/efforts to gather more funds from the close disciples for completion of the projects of the organization

[George]

juan

fair enough, but you say the 10% income thing is a teaching of Sant Mat, is there anywhere on the net that confirms this?

i dont know if Sant Mat is a good or bad mystic tradition, but it seems to me that any place that create hospitals and food for an exceptionally impoverished part of the world can't be a wholly bad thing, even if it does fleece a few flakey wealthy foreigners (which i don't even know is the case).

From what i can tell, there is nothing in Sant Mat's official teachings which make it any more fundamentalist or onerous than any of the many other mystic traditions.

[Juan]

George

I don't think there should be anything that confirms of the 10% income thing on the net.It was in some of the books of RSSB,I don't know whether those books are available or not, but it is repeadetly said in Satsangs,at least in India and some parts of Europe.

Sant Mat is not wholly a bad thing, it has many good things as well.

The official teachings of Sant Mat and the teachings practised and taught by the organization are not the same, and the leader of the organization is well aware of it, therefore it is not permitted to record the teachings or take notes of any satsangs or Q&A.

[Ping]

Ferret in Human Form

The oft preached principle that the humble Master does not benefit one rupee simply does not square with fact and observation when one sets aside the cult mental conditioning.

According to the cult own literature (which Gurinder had removed from circulation but may be found on Google) ‘Origin and Growth’, all religious offerings become the personal property of the Guru to do with whatever he wishes and shall not be limited in any way. After I snapped out of my cult dream, I wondered how I had not questioned the indoctrination ritual of ‘money seva’ at Dera for the impoverished who donate money to the Master when they live below subsistence.

Sawan’s will is also very explicit that the vast Dera lands are to be operated as a feudal kingdom with no rights of residency for those (many impoverished laborers) who have built dwellings on the land (they can be ejected at any time and take only potable belongings) which is an illegality according to Indian law. Dera has become politically powerful and is able to operate as a principality outside of Indian law.

For several years I attempted to obtain these oft touted transparent accountings of RSSB operations and was never provided anything more that overly simplistic provincial bookeeping. However a friend of a German representative did provide a recorded glimpse of the real finances of Dera which was astounding. It paints a picture of huge labor forces transported via rail cars (the lines and trains also owned) to the various agricultural holdings in the tens of thousands of acres and vast construction projects. Obviously the Dera has benefited enormously from the doctrine of donating labor as ‘sewa’ and making ready use of the impoverished who have no other options and according to the principles in Origin and Growth, may be ejected off the land at any time if not cooperative.

The House of Sawan and it’s family business operating platform ‘RSSB’ is an empire. The family dynasty wealth is well hidden to preserve the ‘humble Guru’ charade for the gullible. Yet Gurinder still tools around in private planes lives first class wherever he goes with legions of servants for he and family, multiple lavish residences, the best private schools for children, at one time a taste for Armani suits etc etc etc….and that is just a tiny indication of what we know about. This lifestyle did not about from military pensions or any other profession attributed to the House of Sawan dynasty. Get real.

[Marilyn Chambers]

Does anyone know (not suspicions or rumours) where Gurinder's personal income comes from? We always hear about Charan's farm income and it seems believable and transparent.

But whenever I ask anyone at Satsang about Gurinder, it's like the question shouldn't even be asked, let alone answered.

I'm not accusing Gurinder of living off donated funds. I'm ignorant about the subject and everyone else seems to be as well.

But I do feel it's a legitimate question.

If the big "G" himself or anyone with proof or at least evidence reads this, help us porr "thinkers" out here.

[Brian]

Marilyn, I'm pretty sure you're the first deceased porn star to leave a comment on my blog. Thank you for visiting. Given your interest in churchlessness, I'm starting to feel better about my afterlife.

[George]

lol

[catherine]

Marilyn, I don't know the answer to your question. Does he still work for Babani's in Spain? I am one of the people who believes that he puts enough time in for the Sangat that he can spend as he choses, directly out of his own coffers. The wealth belongs to him after all. I realise, however, that this is not part of the blueprint for SM masters.

I haven't come across anyone who knows what the sons do or where they went to school either.

[Ping]

Access to an enormous compliant agricultural and construction labor force acquired for next to nothing, primarily from an egregiously exploited Indian population living in destitution on Dera lands often with no where else to go, has resulted in incredible enrichment for the House of Sawan. Incredibly, this underclass is also indoctrinated to donate money and labor.

While Sant Mat claims to transcend class and caste, it is obvious the Dera carefully maintains class/caste indoctrination in order to have access to a population ‘that knows its place’, is subservient and has no aspirations. One sees this re-enforcement continually in all forms of social protocols and proximity to the Master, the Indian underclass has no expectation of being treated on par with higher caste Indians or Westerners. Of course it well understood across all class stratas, that the more you donate and perform, the more access (Godman capitol) you are granted.

The heavily publicized hospital eye camps are public relations gold in attracting Westerners and their wallets along with regional political brownie points. Historically, slaveowners and feudal lords have occasionally fed their work force, in this case via the traditional Sikk Langar style community kitchen which is also performed by donation of underclass labor. Along with the orchestrated religious rituals, it is as the French say, ‘Bread and Circus’.

The Dera/RSSB operation is the classic colonial or feudal blueprint for creating massive wealth in the establishment compliant cheap labor or feudal serfs. It is the same exploitative structure that is causing escalating strife around the word as impoverished nations and powerless populations find the value of their labor and resources funned to the top of the elite pyramid. Religion dresses up this transfer of wealth in the pretty package of unverifiable afterlife benefits. Don’t worry about your destitution or financial responsibilities in this life, we’ve seen to it that you will be in fine shape in the next….

RSSB would be walking their talk if they utilized the massive profits generated by they hundreds of thousands of hectares of agricultural lands and construction projects (only one of the profit generating activities) and set up decent housing communities replacing the unsanitary scrap shanties on Dera lands. And set up schools so underclass children could aspire to become an engineer rather than a Dera agricultural laborer like their parents and grandparents. But then with those aspirations and increased expectations, the labor force might not be satisfied with poverty and endless labor with almost nothing in return other than afterlife promises….

And publish a complete inventory of all Dera properties and all it’s subsidiaries and of the Singh family businesses in the interest of full disclosure. It will never happen, people would be shocked at the staggering wealth and begin asking questions…. Better to create an atmosphere where inquiry is considered lack of spiritual commitment while touting ‘the Master has never benefited one rupee…’

For a philosophy that touts itself as ‘scientific’ with emphasis on proof and experience, it is another verification of the power of cult group think that otherwise intelligent people are not more investigative or analytical prompted by obvious contradictions.

[tAo]

I TOTALLY AGREE with Ping's commentary... 1000 PERCENT.

Ping nails the underlying truth about the corruption and fraud that is the RSSB.

The many naive cult believers will no doubt continue to keep their stupid little pinheads stuck in the RSSB lie, but that's their problem and their loss, not mine.

There will always be fools around such as these... Just try not to be one of them.

[tAo]

Btw y'all, if you are gettin sick and tired of all that RSS BS, then there IS a better way you can go...

It's free, its fun, its alive, its got lots of hot babes and manly dudes, its a happening lifestyle, its the genuine 'el camino real', its my friends and my people, and best of all... it ain't got NO damn stinkin gurus or odious mystics.

Listen brothers and sisters, you ain't dead yet... so all you guys and gals, check it out and join the party:

http://www.lifestylerider.com

[rakesh bhasin]

Once a guru along with his followers was passing through a market place and he saw a beautiful girl. Guru went near to the girl and kissed her and said how beautiful is God? Seeing this, all other followers approached her and kissed and said how beautiful is God?
A few steps further there was blacksmith with red hot iron, Guru went near to the red hot iron, kissed it and said how beautiful is God? But no follower had the courage to kiss the red hot iron.

Everything is as per convenience. The story above is hypothetical but underlies the state of most of the followers of gurus. If in the whole of one’s life, one becomes a good follower, a lot is achieved. A wavering mind will lead to nowhere…………………….

[catherine]

Hi Rhakesh... so the silly guru had bee-sting lips for the rest of his life after that? Don't you think that the wisdom of the followers lay in kissing the girl and NOT the hot iron? Where did your sense of self-preservation become so skewed?

Thanks Ping! So do I understand correctly from what you've said that there is no full financial disclosure, no schools for the labourers children on the farms , no good labourer accomodation or financial renumeration, free food which is much in line with Sikh langhars, a practising and in other places illegal feudal system, a practising caste system, all the donation proceeds go directly to Gurinder?

To play the Devil's Advocate; the system runs very smoothly; there is apparent corruption in the family, but maybe Gurinder believes he may be God even though he may feel like it's a fraudulant act. In this role, everyone involved thinks that he knows best how to spend the funds. Maybe he thinks that previous gurus in the lineage should be carrying him through and feels that there should be a few perks to his captivitý; It's Charan's doing anyway, nominating him in the first place to a position he couldn't refuse. There seems to be virtually nil corruption outside of the family in any sangat. The people seem happy on the whole.

[Nidhi Chopra]

Wow I didn't know about this site. My friend told me today about it. Thanks for sharing a different viewpoint , this will help those people who are trying to get rid of RSSB cult and but are made guilty of doing certain sin if they are challenging RSSB beliefs.

I started a facebook group today "RSSB: Americans against cults". Please check it out. Brain sorry about spamming your site.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=78967346637

[Nidhi]

Sorry about not spelling your name correctly 'Brian' !
Believe me, I will get out of this extra politeness and extra burden of being super humble very soon !!

[Samz]

It`s always a pleasure reading the postings on this website, especially in relation to the rssb dogma and to have a great feeling knowing that more and more people are waking up to the this farce of a cult.
I do propose that Brian, should set up a Churchless Sevedars section, for members to physically attend the rssb functions, and let them hear the beautiful sound current of truth of what the rssb really stands for, and the `corruption within`.
It's a shame to know that still so many people still follow this path, and whole heartedly believe it to be their ultimate salvation in all the years they have spent meditating and still await their brainwashed spiritual awakening, it would be great if the knowledge on this website could light up their third eye! As the vast majority of them are totally oblivious to all of this.
Im sure alot of them are totally unaware of the facts surrounding their deceived belief in the rssb way, it would just be great to get all this info out their in their face!
Anyway good work to all who contribute on this website.... keep it up :)

[Roger]

tAo,

My sex filters are not allowing the opening of your lifestyle website.

Is this a site for naked babes dancing around a pagan campfire? Or, totally hot foxy babes, posing on a Harley? Or, bikini (skimpy) clad lusicous, well endowed, babes running around on Venice beach?

WOW, all this typing has made me excitied, in certain ways.

Yours truly,
Roger

[Akshay]

I'm not really sure why you guys are against RSSB. As far as I know, the philosophy makes sense to me, and its not entirely invented by the organisation anyway.
People do tend to over-exaggerate things but its the philosophy that matters.
I don't know where you got the GIHF from though. Even on the official website, our gurus are described as teachers, http://rssb.org/philosophy.php , and he himself hasn't made any such claim. The whole organisation is non-profit and have contributed to charity. I've never had to pay anything anywhere.
I don't understand what corruption you are talking about.
All there is is voluntary donation. Easy to say they maybe used for personal purpouses, but look at all the mantainence and the structures and everything that is required, I'm not able to paraphrase that correctly but I'm sure you know what I mean, how much could be used, and where is the proof?
And how do current teachings differ from original Sant Mant Teachings?
I do follow the RSSB philosophy and I'm just asking for some logical reasoning here.

[Brian]

Akshay, Sawan Singh, one of the RSSB gurus, said, "The Lord is hiding behind the garb of the Saints and speaks through them." Also, L.R. Puri wrote in a book published by RSSB, "Guru and God are identical in their essence. So, we love only one Being throughout, call him God or Guru."

So the notion of God in Human Form is indeed an integral part of Sant Mat teachings. I realize that you may not be as familiar with the teachings as I am, but you should know the Sant Mat basics -- and this is one of them.

[Akshay]

I would still disagree with you though. They are true saints, that is, they have achieved the highest level of spiritualism, but that doesn't mean god in human form, we all strive to reach the highest form of spiritualism, but that doesn't make us god.
Also, L R Puri was a lecturer in philosophy, and many tend to misinterpret things, and probably he may have, or what he meant is that since he has achieved the highest level of spiritualism, he could be considered one with him, as we all probably could.
You have to consider the situation, speaking to a bunch of farmers is not the same as to speaking to someone of higher intellect, what Sawan Singh meant that through our teachers we could reach the ultimate goal, just in a more exaggerated sense, if I may say, to appeal to those people(Again, very badly paraphrased, pardon me)
But I don't get your point. Surely, you have more than some random quotes, right.

I just want to clarify, I'm not defending, I just want to participate in some rational discussion here.

[tAo]

Akshay says:

"They are true saints, that is, they have achieved the highest level of spiritualism"

-- Thats a load of presumption. You do not (and cannot) know that "they have achieved the highest level of spiritualism". To assert as such shows your ignorance.

"but that doesn't mean god in human form"

-- Wrong. Santmat indicates that the master is to be regarded as 'god in human form'.

I just want to clarify, I'm not defending, I just want to participate in some rational discussion here."

-- Then don't make presumptions and don't preach dogma.

[Ping]

I have not read Sant Mat propaganda in many years, but it is interesting that the reported official website avoids the identification of the Guru as God In Human Form; downplaying his role to merely a teacher or guide.

This is further evidence of image manipulation for RSSB’s entry into the Western Market under Gurinder’s direction. It was accurately perceived that the organization would be received as a dangerous cult with the traditional principle and emphasis on the all powerful, all seeing, Guru as God in Human Form.

This ‘image consciousness’ is consistent with the deception used in applying for permits for the various centers. I saw the material submitted to the Petaluma city council and RSSB portrayed itself as a quasi Christian organization (and primarily interested in agriculture-not hosting huge gatherings). I understand similar deception was used for Haynes Park, and a ‘bait and switch’ approach to obtaining permits.

We left the organization is disgust shortly after Gurinder was appointed and demands for seva in establishing the centers and it was obvious Sant Mat was getting a ‘makeover’ (actually we are grateful to Gurinder for making the absurdity of Sant Mat so obvious). I thought the mixed messages of trying to neutralize the Guru as God principle to avoid a ‘cult backlash’ in entering the Western Market while still needing the unquestioning subservience required for legions of sevadars and donations afforded by the God In Human Form identity looked like a trainwreck but the human mind suspends reason and analysis when ‘belief’ takes over and they had no dearth of customers.

Gurinder would go into contorted explanations downplaying the divinity of the Guru simultaneously to RSSB newsletters vigorously proclaiming the opposite, that Gurinder is indeed God in Human Form and if he directs that a Center be built, it is your duty to do that. “ If one day he directs that a wall be built and the next day he direct it be torn down and built somewhere else, that is what you do.” But there is an avalanche of traditional RSSB published material proclaiming that the Guru is God in Human form, and with all that power he, and only he, can supervise your karmas and on and on….

Sant Mat has merely appropriated the wonderful Indian tradition of learning in which a small number of students have the intimate company of their teacher for a number of years to learn ways of being to allow them authentic expression and converted that hallowed tradition into a Mass movement. It is heartless and fundamentally dishonest to delude mass initiated subjects that they have a real teaching relationship by remote with a feudal Guru to become ‘followers’ with little or no real formation of character.

The fact that donations are not required up front is a clever ploy. Once induced into the organization, one becomes aware that if you are serious about your commitment to spiritual advancement, doing seva is a natural next step…and so on… Soon you observe that those who excel in their performance for the organization are rewarded with audiences with Gurinder or are included in more exclusive gatherings. It’s an insidious process, all the more dangerous to you if you are ‘ambitious’. Sadly, I know of many who became obsessed with spiritual advancement defined by access to Gurinder (the covert structure of inducement) with tragic results to their personal lives.

For those who wish to simply practice the meditation, you will likely soon discover it is a waste of time or does not produce touted results of the wonders of inner plane travel and inner development. As another writer’s postings here have articulately explained, no doubt pscho-neurologic experiences can be induced but one would need the close supervision of a real teacher to safely have them. Zen and many respected traditions caution against seeking such hallucinations (makyo) in meditation. It is heartless to delude people into imagining that a neural show represents the experience of God for those who have neuralgic predisposition to hearing sounds and so forth….

RSSB is merely a family business platform powerful enough to avoid independent oversight. Evidently divinity stays within bloodlines. If they were legitimate, they would employ an independent auditor to transparently publish the entirety of holdings by the family and the organization and allow anyone who wished to go to any (not just the designated show place) of the vast farms or construction sites and view the living conditions of the laborers. If they were visionaries, they would use the enormous wealth to create a prototype for enlightened living instead of perpetuating the highly lucrative feudal system.

[Juan]

Catherine and Marilyn,

Gurinder is no more working with Balanis.England is his second home.

Regaring source of income of Gurinder,all the seva(donations) money by the disciples is to the Guru,Gurinder has full access to it.

Gurinder gives about 19 satsangs in beas,plus 10 to 15 satsangs at other centers in India and at every satsang the seva money that comes is between 10 million to 50 million rupees, apart from the collections made in the canteen,the food stuff is also mainly donted by the faithful.The normal seva money at all the centers is enough to bear the expenses of these centers.All this money is directed to Beas.

At the moment there are more than 10,000 places where weekly RSSB satsangs are held in India.

The RSSB comittee bears all the expenses of the Gurus family.The eldest son of Gurinder though earning and married is not supporting the family financially till now.

[Marilyn Chambers]

Juan

Thanks for answering my question. I admit I suspected the same. Can I ask where you got the info and where others can also?

This is a smoking gun if true.

If this is common knowledge and true, then is this not proof of Gurinder's failing, per Sant Mat books, the "test" of a perfect master - that "HE" never accepts a paisa from his disciples for personal use ? Does anyone remember the story of the Guru who refused to read by the lantern light of the whore next door ? ( it was me in a past life - he was one sexy guru but he never gave in )

[rakesh bhasin]

Dear catherine,

Your comments of 18th instant have been noted.

Your response is not strange as it appears that ur knowledge is from either practical or vicareous experience.

Nevetheless a good response.

with regards,

[raj]

why not one of you go there and find out the real fact or proof which proves Guru is fraud. That will be a great help for all including Followers and non-followers. Just by saying He is this and that, does not solve the problem. Proving it with proof will open people's eyes.

[eat it and it eats, it is it is, eat and it eats, it is it is]

Actually, to clarify some points made by several people on this thread,including Brian, the webmaster.

Sant Mat does not consider guru to be equal with God. Guru in Sant Mat is considered higher than God, since it is the Guru who liberates,not God.
Upon reaching the realm of truth, the disciple prostraits first to his/her Guru and then to the lord of Sach Khand who then takes the disciple to Anami, only to discover his Guru there. Read Kabir. Read Anuraq Sagar. From then on the disciple is now a Param Sant Guru.

SantMat is Guru,Nam,Satsang and emphasis is on meditation.

And what is most easily forgotten in these rssb critiques is the role that Kal/Brahm, as psychological, sociological and spiritual element. An entity which in reply to a question one of the masters said that is a real entity, not just a force of nature -an archetype, or a principle. A real entity inhabiting a real realm.

Another thing that is again passed over in these rssb critiques is the focus of sant mat on love. Somewhere in the rssb books it says something like, Love wants to retain duality, for the sake of beholding the beloved. Love and ahimsa are central in sant mat.

There are many things that can be said, and I might appear as an apologetic. I am not apologising for no-body. What I wrote I did so because I felt like it.

Another guy high up in the posts said this in his critique to rssb,
"[as other here pointed out] no doubt pscho-neurologic experiences can be induced but one would need the close supervision of a real teacher to safely have them. Zen and many respected traditions caution against seeking such hallucinations (makyo) in meditation.

Ok so makyo can be experienced. If you need supervision while you are surfing, why do you have such strong feelings for the issue. Get supervision.
The fact remains that Makyo can be experienced -thru peyote,meditation,zazen, etc, and anyone who writes and discusses spirituality without having THIS FACT central in his mind and in his understanding, is wombling, going round and round in circles.

This is the other thing that people miss in their critiques against rssb. That is rssb's emphasis on the inner world. Don't critique the inner world, which exists, critique rssb's conception of it if you want to critique something.

To you all anti-santmatists,
from Brian to Tuscon to Tao,to raj, to Juan...
at least do a good critique!!!

[Brian]

raj, here's the problem with your approach to religion:

How would you prove that Jesus doesn't save souls from their sins? How would you prove that the compassionate Buddha doesn't rescue people from endless suffering by the repetition of a mantra? How would you prove that Jehovah didn't proclaim the Jews as special beloveds of God? How would you prove that I, or anyone else, isn't a divine being, or even God?

Truths have to be proven positively. It isn't up to skeptics to prove that the guru isn't God-realized, but rather it is up to believers to prove that he is.

eat it, you have repeated some Sant Mat dogma. OK, a Christian could repeat some Christian dogma. Are I supposed to believe that just because someone said it? If you're into blind faith, that's your right. If you're into following a particular religious path, go right ahead -- along with almost everyone else in the world.

Everyone likes to believe they've found the One True Religion. The problem is, how can they all be true? There is no proof that the tenets of any religion are demonstrably true. So why should people believe what you say, rather than what all the other believers in their religions say?

[tAo]

To eat it, or it it, or whatever your name is... You said:

"Sant Mat does not consider guru to be equal with God. Guru in Sant Mat is considered higher than God"

-- This is simply nothing more than your own idea, your own opinion, your own belief, your own dogma.

"it is the Guru who liberates,not God."

-- This is nothing more than your idea, your opinion, your belief, your dogma.

"Upon reaching the realm of truth"

-- What "realm of truth"? That is nothing more than an idea, a mere supposition.

"the disciple prostraits first to his/her Guru and then to the lord of Sach Khand who then takes the disciple to Anami, only to discover his Guru there."

-- This is nothing more than your own opinion, belief in the supernatural, dualism and mystical dogma.

"Read Kabir. Read Anuraq Sagar."

-- We have read them... and those are nothing than than poetry and fiction.

"From then on the disciple is now a Param Sant Guru."

-- This is nothing more than some label, idea, some opinion, some belief, some dogma of mysticism.

"SantMat is Guru,Nam,Satsang and emphasis is on meditation."

-- This is nothing more than your idea, your opinion, your belief, your dogma.

"Kal/Brahm, as psychological, sociological and spiritual element. An entity [...] that is a real entity [...] A real entity inhabiting a real realm."

-- This is nothing more than your idea, your opinion, your belief, your dogma.

"in the rssb books it says something like, Love wants to retain duality, for the sake of beholding the beloved."

-- This is nothing more than someone's idea, someone's opinion.

"I am not apologising for no-body."

-- Well maybe you SHOULD apologise for your rather poor grammer.

"If you need supervision while you are surfing, why do you have such strong feelings for the issue. Get supervision."

-- As far as I remember, nothing was mentioned about one needing or desiring "supervision", or even that "supervison" was necessary.

"anyone who writes and discusses spirituality without having THIS FACT central in his mind and in his understanding, is wombling, going round and round in circles."

-- Thats rather funny, because the only one who obviously seems to be going "round in circles", is YOU.

"rssb's emphasis on the inner world. Don't critique the inner world, which exists"

-- And why not? And how do you know that it "exists"? Just because you SAY so? You are so way way far behind in this debate.

"at least do a good critique"

-- There actually happens to already be volumes of good critiques posted on this site. But you apparently haven't bothered to read any of those. And moreover, your own comment is exceedingly lacking in being a "good critique" of the so-called critics.

[tucsoN]

It Eats What It Eats made some comments:

"Sant Mat does not consider guru to be equal with God. Guru in Sant Mat is considered higher than God, since it is the Guru who liberates,not God."

--So what? These are mere ideas and concepts. How does anyone know at the disciple level that there is any such thing as God and that the guru has the power to liberate?

"Upon reaching the realm of truth, the disciple prostraits first to his/her Guru and then to the lord of Sach Khand who then takes the disciple to Anami, only to discover his Guru there."

--The Sant Mat cosmology is full of all these entities and places to be reached and attained. More concepts and ideas that have no verification, and once perceived, so what? Could it be that whatever is eternal must necessarily be this which we are which can't be attained or reached because it is already the case and that you are what you seek?

"Read Kabir. Read Anuraq Sagar. From then on the disciple is now a Param Sant Guru."

--So what about what Kabir says? We will never know what he knew. We can only know what we know. Do you know that Kabir knew what he said he knew?

"SantMat is Guru,Nam,Satsang and emphasis is on meditation."

--All that is just swirling and wombling around the core of this, here, now. Sort of like superficial dressing on a cake.

"And what is most easily forgotten in these rssb critiques is the role that Kal/Brahm, as psychological, sociological and spiritual element."

--another idea, dreamstuff. An apparent entity in an apparent universe. We all appear to be that and that is our apparent dilemma which amounts to no more than a puff of smoke. A magician's cheap trick.

"An entity which in reply to a question one of the masters said that is a real entity, not just a force of nature -an archetype, or a principle. A real entity inhabiting a real realm."

--no entity is 'real'. They are only objectivizations of 'Self', a self that is no 'where' to be found except in conceptual misidentification.

"Another thing that is again passed over in these rssb critiques is the focus of sant mat on love."

--Love of what? A dreamed entity? Love is a sourceless functioning rather than a subject-object relationship which is duality, which is maya. Love is presence and awareness that I (who am not as 'I') am that.

"Somewhere in the rssb books it says something like, Love wants to retain duality, for the sake of beholding the beloved. Love and ahimsa are central in sant mat."

--The beloved can never be be held objectively for it is what we are. Ahimsa is not a central tenet of Sant Mat but rather a peripheral behavioral principle to enhance the core tenet which is devotion to guru and theoretically a byproduct of that devotion.

"There are many things that can be said, and I might appear as an apologetic. I am not apologising for no-body. What I wrote I did so because I felt like it."

--Apologise if you like. Say what you like.

"Another guy high up in the posts said this in his critique to rssb,
"[as other here pointed out] no doubt pscho-neurologic experiences can be induced but one would need the close supervision of a real teacher to safely have them. Zen and many respected traditions caution against seeking such hallucinations (makyo) in meditation."

--One can mess with the conjurations of mind with or without a guide, but why bother to concern oneself? Just abide as this presence in which all phenomena arise. It's easier.

"Ok so makyo can be experienced. If you need supervision while you are surfing, why do you have such strong feelings for the issue. Get supervision."

--If you like. Whatever.

"The fact remains that Makyo can be experienced -thru peyote,meditation,zazen, etc, and anyone who writes and discusses spirituality without having THIS FACT central in his mind and in his understanding, is wombling, going round and round in circles."

--which is what we seem to be doing.

"This is the other thing that people miss in their critiques against rssb. That is rssb's emphasis on the inner world. Don't critique the inner world, which exists, critique rssb's conception of it if you want to critique something."

--OK. What is inner, where is outer? What is outer, where is inner? Who is there to have an inside or an outside? Where is that entity?

"To you all anti-santmatists,
from Brian to Tuscon to Tao,to raj, to Juan...
at least do a good critique!!!"

--Many have been written here over the years. Seek in the archives and ye shall find.

[troll buster]

eat it and it eats, it is it is, eat and it eats, it is it is = troll

[tAo]

Raj said:

"why not one of you go there and find out the real fact or proof which proves Guru is fraud."

-- But I have gone there... and I did find out. I found out that it is the very "Guru" himself who has already proven and revealed it. So I don't need to prove it. He has already proven it for me.

"That will be a great help for all including Followers and non-followers."

-- Well thank you... I'm glad to be of service and help to all the "followers and non-followers".

"Just by saying He is this and that, does not solve the problem."

-- The so-called "problem" has actually already been solved. He has solved it himself. He himself has revealed the truth, so there is no need to to say anything. He himself has already said it and revealed it.

"Proving it with proof will open people's eyes."

-- He (Guru) has already proven it. He himself is the proof. So just open YOUR eyes and see.

[Flakey Kook]

What is actually wrong with Sant Mat?

There are a whole bunch of kooky flakes on here who have at one time or another delved into many spiritual traditions incl Sant Mat, but now they wish to slam it cos their book did not give credit to RS or what exactly?

Sant Mat concepts:

- A vegaterian lifestyle.
So what most kookies are vegans.

- The concept of a guru.
Most spiritual traditions emphasise the need for a living master.

- The concept of the guru being god in human form.
What is 'god' here? A concept for the inexpressible of a fully perfected or realized being.

- The concept of looking within and disconnecting from the external world?
The concept of self-knowledge and meditation occurs in countless other traditions, and Buddism is all about release from attachment.

- Allegation that RS and the guru are a cult and exploitative.
Based on what? I have not heard or read of any group suicides like Wako, etc. There are no strict rules which result in death or damnation. The deras provide medical care and food for the poor in the region. Contributions by satsangis are entirely voluntary, nothing is compulsory.

There is actually no substance to your bashing.
Its gratuitous and from hyprocritical flakey kooks.

[It the tAo and the Tao its you. On on on on]

Dear Tao,Tuscon and Brian,

First of all I would like to apologise for my poor English.

You all seem to miss the point once more. Tao, you are like parrot who repeats the mantra "so what?, this is your opinion." There is nothing I can answer back at you really. You say I am far behind in this debaete. That is your opinion. In my defence I din't know there was beginning and an end. As far as the inner worlds are concerned, denying them is denying that you dream. You remind me of some materialist university professors. Perhaps marxists, or sociobiologists,,,engineers, neuropsychologists..you know...
The tao you speak is of not the eternal tao

Tuscon, you play constantly with the concept of non duality. "which inner which Self which Witch". Fair enough. Sant mat is not a non-dual path. It may point towards a non-duality, but in practical and philosophical dimensions it is not advocating non-duality. You use your own tool to critique another tool, and just because for you, your tool is baptised 'non-dual' you dont experience the contradiction.As far as I understant, non-duality means, for me, that state where what you think, feel, love, do, speak, intend and practice, are all aligned like a solar eclipse. But that just me.
Both you and Tao are mistaken in your critiques. Guru is more important than the concept of God in sant mat because the Guru is real and God. So what I said is at least dont be so wrong with your critique. Its still shallow, missfired and in all respect. superficial .

And when Tuscon asks what is inner what is outter that is easy; Before you go to the toilet for a number 2, the shit is inside, after you go it is outside. Before you say thank you to someone, it is inside, after you say it, it is outside. These are just words we use in every day life,,for practical purposes..where are the keys? In the jacket.
The actual distinction, the actual duality comes when you want to say it, or shit it, and you cannot,,,that is called constipation, mental constipation, or psychological constipation. Some others have mental and psychological diarhhea.

Brian, you have missed the point again :"eat it, you have repeated some Sant Mat dogma."
No. I did not. I clarified certain aspects of Sant Mat so your critiques are at least accurate. One point that i made is that God in human form, is higher than god in mental form ACCORDING to sant mat.

And yes Flakeu kook is right
"Most spiritual traditions emphasise the need for a living master."
Not just spiritual traditions, almost all traditions emphasise the need for a living master. And anyone who critiques this should do so with something he learned on his/her own. What is the first word you uttered when your a baby? Mama, papa, or dada?

[Brian]

It, I disagree with you.

(1) What's the difference between "dogma" and "according." Dogma is the truths of a religion according to those who believe in the dogmas. Dogmas aren't demonstrably true to those who don't believe, like scientific facts are.

(2) It isn't true that most religions or spiritual traditions teach that a living master is needed. Christianity doesn't. Judaism doesn't. Islam doesn't. Buddhism doesn't. Taoism (which isn't really a religion) doesn't. Sikhism doesn't. Some forms of HInduism and Yoga do.

So please list the religions and spiritual traditions that emphasize the need for a living master who is considered to be co-equal or superior to God. Then we can compare them with those that don't.

[Maggie]

Gurinders last name is Dhillon as in Mat Dhillon not Singh. His father was suppose to be a gambler and lost his immediate family fortune. I suppose he might have changed it to reflect the family business owning lots of property for personnel integerity. Indians often have very large extended families.

[tucsoN]

To Flakey Kook and It It Eats etc.

Not too long ago a commenter named Unknown provided an extensive critique of RSSB beliefs, business practices and much more.

This can be found by going to the right hand column on the Churchless homepage and scrolling down to the Google search. Enter 'RSSB expose' in the Google box. Make sure you select the "hinesight" button.

You should get links to all the chapters of this expose. Here is chapter one to get you started, but don't miss the chapters on the belief system and other topics:

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2009/01/chapter-1-of-rssb-expose-business-dealings.html

[Jay]

All u sad anti Radha soami people..please get a life n let people believe
In what they wish. Cant help but think that if you have all this time
To criticise others beliefs that there must be something missing in
Ur own lives.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Jay,

I understand your view as a formerly
registered Rajinder mole from Goleta, CA.

Kirpal has ruined your life which turned
into a nightmare.

We are here to stop the youth of tomorrow
from following in your footsteps and
destroying themselves and their families
as you have done.