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March 13, 2009

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Robby, Sant mat meditation did not energize me.

George, you're in a tAo bashing groove.

yes catherine, i must stop, apologies.

Thank you George for pointing out the obvious fallacies in tA0's response.

tA0 - whatever your reasons for the strange mix of lower and uppercase - please note the following:

1. did you notice how many times your response contained the word "I'? I disagree about this, about that, etc. That is VANITY. Don't take my word for it - the Old and New Testament, the Hindu scriptures (eg. Gita) and the Sikh Granth are among the scriptures that mention vanity as a key obstacle to God-realization.

2. Your are fully entitled to believe whatever you wish. No one is forcing Sant Mat on you. I was merely responding to what I saw as blatant misinterpretations and misrepresentations of Sant Mat.

3. There is a reason Jesus said "It is forbidden to cast pearls before swine". That is because swine prefer to roll around in excrement, and would not know a pearl's value.

Enough said.

Response to Brian's response to my post:

Hello Brian:

1. You're absolutely right my 'colorful language' was inappropriate, and that my anger was 'ungodly'. But I acknowledged this in my message - read it again and see.

2. A difference in style is not a difference in substance. Is that too hard for you to understand?

3. I agree you have an absolute right to NOT believe in Sant Mat. I never said you had any obligation to. What I said is you have no right to misrepresent the beliefs of Sant Mat - which you have, quite blatantly. As for me and millions like me, I and they have an absolute right to believe in Sant Mat (or anything else).

4. Christians offering you a 'better deal'? Go for it.... who is stopping you? If you like Islam or Hinduism better or any of the old or new religions, go for any of them - no one is stopping you. Just don't spread misinformation about Sant Mat, which you obviously don't respect or understand.

Have a good life.

Harinder -- interesting how you can be so sure that I don't understand Sant Mat. Let's see...

-- I diligently practiced Sant Mat meditation and followed the vows (pretty nearly to the letter) for about 35 years.

-- I wrote three books under the auspices of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, one of which was distributed by RSSB, one of which was published by RSSB, and one of which was read and reviewed extensively by RSSB sevadars (and was requested to be written by the RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh).

-- Up to a few years ago I'd read every page of every book published by RSSB, and took extensive notes on the fundamental principles and beliefs of Sant Mat (which I still refer to occasionally).

-- I gave satsangs regularly for several decades, including some at regional or national satsang weekends.

During all of this, nobody ever said that I didn't understand Sant Mat. In fact, quite the opposite. My understanding hasn't changed now. I just have a broader perspective, more wisdom, and can see how Sant Mat fits into a wider picture of reality.

I respect Sant Mat. I understand Sant Mat. I simply respect truth more than any single belief system. I joined the RSSB organization to come closer to truth, not to pledge my loyalty to an organization forever. If God exists, I'm pretty sure he/she/it applauds truth-seeking much more than sticking with a religious organization.

Response to Obed's response to my post:

Thanks for your comment. It is unfortunate that you abandoned a priceless philosophy due to a failure to grasp it. Your veiled criticism of Master CharanSingh Ji's statement shows how little you know about the Sant Mat teachings.

Your refer to "May your love of The Form culminate in the Love of the Formless", (which I have not checked but will accept as accurate), and imply the philosophy is false and self-contradictory (form leading to formless). But this is a perfect example of how the intellect can blind people to spiritual matters, and why Masters including Jesus insist that one has to become like a child to have spiritual growth.

Your 'intellectual' brain finds a seeming error in the logic of Master CharanSingh's statement, but the truth is you don't seem to know even the basics of Sant Mat. What the Master says in this pithy phrase is that by meditating on the 'form' of the Master, one can one day become one with the 'Formless'.

To you this is meaningless, because you are too lazy to even attempt to understand the most basic Sant Mat teachings. Simply put, what Master means here is that God is Formless - being pure power - form is a limitation of our material world of time and space. But we cannot meditate on the Formless. We have to start by meditate on form, because that is what our mind can grasp. Formless does not mean nothing - au contraire it means the Everything behind what we see around us. Once an initiate walks on this path and meditates long enough to overcome the lower tendencies of the mind towards matter, and also burns off the karma of untold millions of lifetimes, he/she mystically will be brought in contact with the Formless One.

There is an analogy in the 'scientific' world I have mentioned in an earlier post. Cosmologists at Harvard, Cambridge and so on - the so-called string-theorists - believe that the universe exists in dimensions as high as 10 and possibly 26, but they cannot explain how. That's because our minds are designed to function in a 4-dimensional world - 3 of space and 1 of time. In your way of thinking, all these scientists would also be utter fools, wouldn't they?

There is no contradiction here. Only the failure of a lazy person who has fallen victim to the trickery of his own mind/intellect.

You refer to:

Response to Catherine's comment: Robby, Sant mat meditation did not energize me.

Catherine - when one plants a seed somewhere - does it bear fruit right away? Does a tree grow overnight?

You must also be aware of Jesus' comment about seeds falling in different types of soil - rock bearing no fruit, whereas fertile soils bearing fruit quickly (not a precise quote, but you get the idea?)..

Best regards.

Harinder.

Response to Brian's latest response:

1. It is your absolute right to step away from the path if it does not satisfy you. Babaji has never said anything to the contrary.

2. May I know which book was published by RSSB that you wrote?

3. Practising a faith to the letter does not mean one has grasped the spirit. It is the spirit that quickeneth.... but I am using the word as a pun here. The most important and essential element required is not the writing of books, giving of satsangs, or holding high positions within the RSSB organization - these may be harmful by boosting one's vanity, but to what degree one has surrendered to the Will of the Master. As Jesus said 'Thy Will be done'. Islam also means surrender to God. The Hindu texts also prescribe 'bhakti' or devotion.

But they also prescribe patience....to demand that one's prayers or wishes including for internal darshan (whole body being full of light) be granted according to one's own schedule is also a failure to accept the Will. It is God who decides when and if one will be enlightened, not a human being. You gave up after 35 years, but the promise given is for 4 lifetimes..... you gave up long before that... this was a failure of your faith, not a failure of Sant Mat.

In many satsangs it has been said, even if you do not think you are making progress, keep up your effort. Your effort is being recorded by the Master, but perhaps your load of karma is a big one and needs even longer to be worked out.

Knowing every word of the RSSB teachings and books does not mean one has imbibed them. Scripture is full of warnings about the vanity of priests who may know the letter of the scripture, but whose hearts have not become holy.... Jesus was crucified because he challenged the hypocrisies of the priests of his time.

As you claim to know the teachings of Sant Mat, are you not aware of Kabir's prescription that the 2.5 letters that spell love in Hindi are worth more than all the holy books in the world? Or of Guru Gobind's statement that only those who have Loved have found God. Or Jesus' first commandment to Love thy God.


Regards.

Harinder, the book was "Life is Fair." If I may make a suggestion...

Your comments are basically along the lines of, "Believe in Sant Mat because this is what Sant Mat teaches." This is like a Christian saying, "Believe in Jesus because the Bible says so."

Well, of course it does. Just as Buddhists point to Buddhist scriptures, Muslims to the Koran, and so on. You won't convince anybody here by just making circular arguments.

Also, I can tell you for a fact that there are many different ways Sant Mat initiates view this spiritual path. You favor a traditional "Indian" view -- which isn't limited to people from India, of course.

You denigrate anyone who views mysticism from a different perspective. Yet I'm sure you're aware that the current RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh, says "Sant Mat is not the only way."

So I'm wondering why you keep on saying that unless someone agrees with your version of Sant Mat, they aren't on a genuine spiritual path.

Sorry to butt in here. The RS book Brian wrote is "Life is Fair".

Harinder Jadwani said:"...but the promise given is for 4 lifetimes..... you gave up long before that... this was a failure of your faith, not a failure of Sant Mat."

--How do you know what 'lifetime' Brian is on? Where is the evidence of these lifetimes? If Brian quit RS, wouldn't that be in the master's hands if he is pulling all the strings anyway? Charan Singh once said, "Not even a leaf moves without His will." So why be concerned?

HJ wrote: "In many satsangs it has been said, even if you do not think you are making progress, keep up your effort. Your effort is being recorded by the Master, but perhaps your load of karma is a big one and needs even longer to be worked out."

--How do you know the master does this or is capable of it? Have you ever wondered how the master keeps track of millions of disciples' efforts and karmas?

What if you pass death's door and discover that he had no power at all?

I don't really expect answers to these questions and I think I know what you would say if you did attempt to answer them. Just something for you to ponder if you like.

I was initiated in 1970 by Charan and quit all involvement with RS in the 90's. I have been to the dera twice (1974 & 1984), meditated a lot, attended many satsangs, did seva, and read all the books. I know the drill, so no need to repeat it for my benefit.

Harinder,
What deeply annoys me about your posts is how you keep calling Brian "vain." Vain, in my opinion, is someone who feels they have the right to intrude on someone else's path because they think they are right and the other wrong. If you approached Brian with curiosity about the nuances of his life journey, even expressing your sadness that he has distanced himself from something you obviously care about, I would be much more open to listening to you....but right now, your "hardass" tone and accusatory implications, i.e. assuming you understand Sant Mat better than Brian, and it is your right to point out his "failures," sounds, if nothing else, vain.

To: Harinder Jadwani

First, fyi, George has not pointed out any such "fallacies" in my comments. If you see "fallacies", then be specific and say exactly what (and where) they are. You RS believers are so typical. You beat around the bush vaguely, but never come up with any substance. So put-up or shut-up.

"tA0 [...] please note the following:
1. did you notice how many times your response contained the word "I'? I disagree about this, about that, etc. That is VANITY."

-- No, you stupid dumbass, the use of "I" is NOT "vanity" in any way whatsoever. It is simply proper use of the english grammer and language.

"the Old and New Testament, the Hindu scriptures (eg. Gita) and the Sikh Granth are among the scriptures"

-- I don't give a damn about your supposed "scriptures". I have read and studied them all, and they don't have anything to do with, or say that using the pronoun "I" is vanity. And you're truly an idiot if you think using the term "I" automatically indicates vanity. Your fussing about the use of "I" is ridiculous and is blatant pseudo-spirituality.

"vanity as a key obstacle to God-realization"

-- But you see, I don't believe in your notion of "God-realization". So don't impose your religious crap and beliefs on me. And what do you know about "realization" anyway?

"No one is forcing Sant Mat"

-- Incorrect. YOU are "forcing Sant Mat". YOU are imposing and preaching your rigid Santmat doctrine and beliefs upon others here. Why don't you open your mind and maybe find out what others here have to share?

"I was merely responding to what I saw as blatant misinterpretations and misrepresentations of Sant Mat."

-- No one is "misrepresenting" Santmat here. There are many people here (including myself) who know a great deal about Santmat. No one is misinterpreting. If you have some specific instance, then show what that is.

"There is a reason Jesus said "It is forbidden to cast pearls before swine". That is because swine prefer to roll around in excrement, and would not know a pearl's value."

-- So you are implying that other long time Santmat initiates here are "swine" who "roll around in excrement, and would not know a pearl's value"??? I think you don't have a clue as to who or what you are talking about. And btw, in case you don't know, your supposed "Jesus" is a fictional character, a myth. So don't think you are being smart by quoting a fictional Jesus.

[You said to Brian]: "I said is you have no right to misrepresent the beliefs of Sant Mat - which you have, quite blatantly."

-- You are absolutely wrong and incorrect. Brian has NOT misrepresented Santmat at all. Brian happens to be very well versed and experienced in Santmat, and so am I, and so are others. So don't assume or say otherwise.

"Just don't spread misinformation about Sant Mat, which you obviously don't respect or understand."

-- Now this comment is even worse. You have no basis whatsoever to say that others here "don't respect or understand" Santmat. I dare say there are people here who understand far more about Santmat than you do.

[To Obed]: "It is unfortunate that you abandoned a priceless philosophy due to a failure to grasp it. [...] how little you know about the Sant Mat teachings." "

-- You don't know that Obed has "failed to grasp" anything. You are just another condescendingly self-righteous RS fundamentalist. And Obed is way smarter and wiser than you are.

"this is a perfect example of how [...] Masters including Jesus insist that one has to become like a child to have spiritual growth."

-- That is absolute bullshit. BULLSHIT. Jesus is a myth, and spiritual growth most definitley does NOT result from being childish or being "like a child". This kind of rhetoric is pseudo-spiritual nonsense.

"by meditating on the 'form' of the Master, one can one day become one with the 'Formless'."

-- That too is a bogus doctrine and idea. There is no such "become one" with anything.

[To Obed]: "you are too lazy to even attempt to understand the most basic Sant Mat teachings."

-- You are a stupid asshole Harinder. Obed understands Santmat teachings quite well enough.

"we cannot meditate on the Formless."

-- You do not know that.

"Once an initiate walks on this path and meditates long enough to overcome the lower tendencies of the mind towards matter, and also burns off the karma of untold millions of lifetimes, he/she mystically will be brought in contact with the Formless One."

-- That belief is nothing more than obvious Santmat dogma... a web of unfounded assumptions.

[To Brian]:

"The most important and essential element required is [...] to what degree one has surrendered to the Will of the Master."

-- This too is a false doctrine. No such surrender is needed or required. And there is no "Will of the Master" either. Who and where is this so-called "Master"?

"It is God who decides when and if one will be enlightened, not a human being."

-- "God" is simply an idea in your mind. There is no such "God who decides". And there is no such "enlightened" either. No one is "enlightened". Enlightenment is a myth.

"You gave up after 35 years, but the promise given is for 4 lifetimes..... you gave up long before that... this was a failure of your faith, not a failure of Sant Mat."

-- NO, this is a "failure" of YOU to understand that waiting and "faith" for "4 lifetimes" is utter bullshit. No truly intelligent person will ever accept such absurd fictitious nonsense - dogma.

"Your effort is being recorded by the Master, but perhaps your load of karma is a big one and needs even longer to be worked out."

-- This also is ridiculous nonsense dogma.

"Scripture is full of warnings about the vanity of priests who may know the letter of the scripture, but whose hearts have not become holy"

-- Then why do YOU preach so much Santmat dogma?

"Jesus was crucified because..."

-- Wake up Harinder... Jesus is just a contrived myth.

Kabir's prescription that the 2.5 letters that spell love in Hindi are worth more than all the holy books in the world? Or of Guru Gobind's statement that only those who have Loved have found God. Or Jesus' first commandment to Love thy God."

-- This is merely more lame pseudo-spiritual rhetoric.


And finally, as Brian so rightly observed when he said: "I'm wondering why you keep on saying that unless someone agrees with your version of Sant Mat, they aren't on a genuine spiritual path."

-- Btw Harinder, why are YOU VIOLATING the current RS masters formal published prohibition against all intiates posting, preaching, discussing, or debating anything about Sant Mat on the internet??? Are you not aware of this?... Do you not respect that this internet prohibition IS "the master's will"??? By preaching Santmat here, you are completely disregarding his will and his instructions.

So that makes you a Santmat hypocrite... You claim to be a devoted follower of Santmat and surrendered the master's will, but yet you turn round and ignore and violate his will.

So Harinder, if you are going to be talking the talk, then you'd better start walking the walk.

Dear Harinder,
I love you too.
Love
Obed

Dear tAo,
Thank you for your kind words.They are truly appreciated.
Enjoy your biking and please look after yourself the roads are not always the safest places.
With kindnest and affection
Obed

Obed, a person can say or write something apparently harshly but can infact be acting in kindness. On the other hand, while being sweet and polite they can cut deeply.

Hari, the seed was planted when I was born to my knowledge. It continues to grow to my knowledge.

tAo gets plenty of tender loving care on the road and in the hotels and off-ramps along the way. I don't think having auntie worrying at home is a necessary part of a biker's lifestyle.

Dear Catherine,
I get your points.From your perspective I am sure you are right.Still I dont mind being a kindly old "auntie".I have this weakness of trying to be kind and nice and I have not as yet been able to get over it.It is part of my package.I accept it and give it love.While at the same time being fully aware it is not me.So please dont mind if I give
back to you kindness and repect.It really doesnt cost me much in fact I take great joy in being nice
and a bit of an old "auntie".
Have a good laugh and enjoy.
Love
Obed

tA0:

You are so obviously hostile to any scripture - your own words indicate you respect none of them - what are you doing on this forum?

You believe God does not exist, so your real agenda is to mock and insult anyone who does not agree with you, isn't it?

The reference to pearls and swine should now be very clear - it was principally directed at you. I will not bother to argue with an unmitigated fanatic - a fundamentalist atheist.

Perhaps you believe in science as the ultimate reality since that is the usual preference of those who deny the existence of God. So here is a scientific experiment. Stick a finger in your excrement (you do produce it, don't you?) and smell it....

Then decide whether the excrement is or is not evidence of the body being a lower animal/carnal entity. And whether it is worth spending a life 'Knowing Thyself' and investing in discovering whether a higher existence than this exists or not...

Goodbye.

Harinder, thanks for making your beliefs crystal clear. Why should anyone believe that God exists when there is no demonstrable evidence of this?

Don't you understand that mysticism, including Sant Mat, isn't based on a belief in God but on directly experiencing for oneself the nature of reality?

If you consider that spirituality is all about saying "I believe in God!" and disparaging those who say "I don't know if God exists," it's pretty obvious that you haven't understood that mysticism and meditation is about direct experience, not conceptual beliefs.

Harinder writes:

"tA0: You are so obviously hostile to any scripture - your own words indicate you respect none of them - what are you doing on this forum?"

-- What am I doing? The same thing you are doing - making comments. And just where does it say that I should or must respect "scriptures"? Scriptures are merely words and ideas... and many times much superstition as well.

"You believe God does not exist, so your real agenda is to mock and insult anyone who does not agree with you, isn't it?"

-- I did not say that God "does not exist". I said: "God is simply an idea in your mind." But you are right that I do NOT "believe" in God, or in some idea of God that you may define as "God". Also, it is unnecessary for me to believe in anything (including "God"). Life does not require any belief. Harinder, you are obviously a religious minded person who seeks to impose your beliefs and religious dogma upon others.

"The reference to pearls and swine should now be very clear - it was principally directed at you."

-- Which basically means that you regard me as being an ignorant PIG who has no "appreciation" for your religious dogma and mystical mumbo-jumbo. But thats YOUR loss and YOUR stupidity, not mine. You clearly haven't got the slighetest clue as to where I am coming from. Thats because you are quite narrow-minded and dogmatic, and so you foolishly think that you are the authority on Santmat and other folks like myself are lost.

"I will not bother to argue with an unmitigated fanatic - a fundamentalist atheist."

-- Which again only proves what an stupid and ignorant fool you are... as I am not any sort of "atheist", and I certainly am not a fundamentalist. I hold nothing with which to be fundamentalist about.

"Perhaps you believe in science as the ultimate reality since that is the usual preference of those who deny the existence of God."

-- I did not "deny the existence of God". I simply said that "God" is merely an idea. Are you so lame-brained that you cannot see the difference? I don't subscribe to ideas such as "ultimate reality" either.

"decide whether the excrement is or is not evidence of the body being a lower animal/carnal entity.


"whether it is worth spending a life 'Knowing Thyself' and investing in discovering whether a higher existence than this exists or not."

-- I don't need to spend my life "Knowing Thyself", or in "investing in discovering whether a higher existence than this exists". I already know myself. I already am myself. There is nothing more that I need to gain or to know about myself. And btw, there is no other "existence", other than existence itself. This so-called "higher existence" is just another idea.

Harinder, you think you know so much (Santmat etc)), but in reality you know so very very little. And also, you know absolutely nothing about me. You have no idea what I am about. And you come here posing as if you have all the answers, but your shallow dogma and your lack of real insight shows that you don't.

Open up your mind and get a clue Harinder.


Response to Adam, Brian, Tucson:

Thank you for your valuable comments. Here is my response for your consideration:

1. Adam - you are absolutely right my tone is 'hardass' and inappropriate. You are quite right I am also afflicted with vanity, anger, and all the rest (lust, greed and attachment to matter). Everyone is - that is the human/carnal condition, and that is the fight - to overcome those tendencies. I have to fight my own tendencies to anger and vanity when I see things misrepresented. But you do see that the world we live in is full of deceit and injustice, don't you? The American invasion of Iraq, for instance, by people calling themselves 'born-again' Christians..

In your response and that of Brian and Tucson, I see sincerity, decency, honesty, and in my responses my criticisms were not intended to imply I was 'better' than anyone else - that surely is 'Vanity'. However the responses of tA0 for instance do strike me as unreasonable and fanatic, and therefore undeserving of further response.

2. Brian - I am NOT saying Sant Mat is the only way, nor am I selling it. I am merely trying to fight what I see as the misrepresentation of it by people who don't seem to understand its basic tenets. In fact, it is clear to me that we are all following individual destinies - eg. being born in different countries in different religions, and so on. Everyone is free to follow what they want to, and believe what they want to.

I do believe (and you may disagree) that in its essence, Sant Mat is no different from what Jesus taught (though what Jesus taught is not what the religion of Christianity teaches), what the ancient Hindu texts say, and what the Sikh Granth says, what the Greek masters particularly Socrates taught. It is essentially the same as what the Buddha taught and what many Persian and Indian mystics taught. I am talking about the essence, not the specific words. In short I am saying it is the same wine but which may have been marketed in different bottles. But it is your absolute right to disagree.

I must ask though what you were doing in those 35 years when you performed satsangs and wrote books on a philosophy that you now say gave you no satisfaction, inner insights, or fill you with some sense of grace. Were you not simply parroting a philosphy you did not believe at heart, and perhaps never fully understood?

3. Tucson: Of course I don't know which lifetime Brian is in, but that is irrelevant. The point is he gave up - after 35 years of what seems to me of essentially 'faking it' - giving satsangs and writing books on things he didn't believe in or find satisfaction in.

As for your comment about all things being in God's hands, including Brian's quitting, you have put your finger on one of the age-old dilemmas - certainly not unique to Sant Mat - this question has been debated for millenia - whether there is free choice or divine Will. This is one of the deepest questions and as I have said in earlier posts, the answer is not something that can be explained in words. Just like learning a trade or profession takes a long time, discovering the secrets of existence takes our entire life, and is arguably the most important thing in life, isn't it? An unexamined life is not worth living. One must walk on the path and be patient - God does test the patience and persistence of seekers - Heaven is not granted easily, and why should it be?

There are a couple of references from the gospels on this. One is Jesus' statement that 'Many be called but few be chosen". Thus many are initiated but only those who go through the tests will be successful. From Q&A sessions you know how many initiates say they cannot meditate....and the Master's response that they need to try harder.

A second related reference is the parable of the 10 virgins - 5 who kept their 'lamps' lit with the 'oil' of love were accepted by the Bridegroom, the other 5 who did not were rejected.

You may say this contradicts the 4-lifetime guarantee, but it does not. The guarantee is conditional on the initiate doing their part, and leaving the rest to God. If this is not satisfactory, ask yourself why you strive at anything - at your job do you know you will be promoted for sure? Are you sure your marriage will never break up or suffer infidelity? There are no unconditional guarantees in life, except death and taxes.

There is no question God holds the fat end of the stick, and fixes the rules of the game. This may seem unfair, but the flip side is that if one accepts these rules, one can be fully restored to God's own status - that is surely more than enough compensation?

As for whether the Master has power to keep track of karmas, or meet me at death's door - yes I know but this is what faith is. I can give you no logical reason. I know from my personal experience with the Master that he does know what I am doing, and takes actions, sometimes to punish (to correct) and sometimes to protect. I do believe he will be there at death's door, because I know how often he has mystically protected me in this life. I am not going to go into details because these things are private and not to be revealed. You can call me a liar if you like, but thousands of other people have had similar experiences.

This does not mean that doubts and questions have not arisen. In times of crises I have expressed my grievance and even resentment (personally - mystically) - because when one loves, one has the courage to do so. But those difficult times have passed and my belief has emerged strong.

Your argument about the Master's ability to track karma or be at death's door is similar to the atheist's argument - how do you know there is a God, and a Just One? Well I just know, but am not interested in providing proof to someone who does not know. They have their destiny and I have mine.


Sincerely.

Harinder Jadwani.

Addendum to my response to Adam, Brian, Tucson:

On the free will vs. destiny question - one further comment - what is in our hands is what we do - some will has been given to us.... the statement that grass cannot grow without God's will does not mean that nothing is in our hands - what it means is that the results of our actions are in God's hands.

God disposes, but man can propose....

Dear Catherine:

Thank you for pointing out that seemingly harsh words may be kind - it is true some of my words were harsh.

I am also delighted to know the seed is continuing to grow. May it bear the sweetest Fruit!

All the very best.

Harinder.

One more addendum to Adam, Brian, Tucson:

It seems a supreme irony to me that having written Life is Fair (which I haven't read yet) Brian is now indirectly lamenting the unfairness of having spent 35 years in a philosophy that he now disowns....

Did you truly believe and understand what you wrote, Brian? Do you still believe it?

I can tell you the idea of karma is not just in Sant Mat or Hinduism. Jesus talked about sowing and reaping, and most Canadians (I live in Canada) do believe what goes around, comes around.

Regards.

Another reason I will comment no further on tA0 is I simply cannot better what George said:

"Confucius says...." - that was simply priceless George.

Thanks.

Dear Harinder Jadwani,

In one of your comments you said:

You must also be aware of Jesus' comment about seeds falling in different types of soil - rock bearing no fruit, whereas fertile soils bearing fruit quickly.

Fyi in the book The Master Answers, of RSSB Beas, these are the words of Maharaj Charan Singh.

“The problem with the Bible is that nobody took notes at that time…. So many things were suppressed by the Church and by interested people. Only that much is given to us which can keep us under their hold.”

He also said that the real teachings are something very different from what is being told through the organizations and churches and temples.

Further if you wish, please try to know the abstract of the speech at the time of Gaddi Nasheem of Gurinder Singh in June 90. I hope this will help you.

Best wishes

Harinder Jadwani writes:

"you do see that the world we live in is full of deceit and injustice, don't you? The American invasion of Iraq, for instance, by people calling themselves 'born-again' Christians."

-- This again shows your blindness and ignorance. The Iraq war ("invasion") was not brought about by any such "born-again Christians"... it was entirely instigated and orchestrated by demonic satanic occultists and the super-rich global power elite... and it was just a step in a much greater plan.

"the responses of tA0 for instance do strike me as unreasonable and fanatic"

-- Then please be so kind as to point out where exactly are these "unreasonable and fanatic" responses? I would have say that it is your touting of fundamentist Santmat dogma that is pretty fanatical and unreasonable.

"I am NOT saying Sant Mat is the only way"

-- No that is not true... you DID say and/or imply that Santmat is the only way.

"I am merely trying to fight what I see as the misrepresentation of it by people who don't seem to understand its basic tenets."

-- That is quite incorrect. Brian, Tucson, myself and several others are all very knowledgeable, very experienced, and we deeply "understand its basic tenets". And none of are "misrepresenting" Santmat .... but YOU are misrepresenting us, and that is dishonest.

"I do believe (and you may disagree) that in its essence, Sant Mat is no different from what Jesus taught"

-- That is simply the standard RS bullshit propaganda that seeks to co-opt and exploit christianity and attract christian seekers.

"It [Santmat] is essentially the same as what the Buddha taught"

-- NO it is NOT (It is NOT "the same as what the Buddha taught"). Not at all. That is an outright bogus and illegitimate claim. Any Buddhist scholar knows that.

"I don't know which lifetime Brian is in, but that is irrelevant. The point is he gave up - after 35 years of what seems to me of essentially 'faking it'"

-- Bullshit. He did not "give up" at all. There is no doubt that he has very much continued his pursuit of truth... and meditation.

"this question has been debated for millenia - whether there is free choice or divine Will. [...] discovering the secrets of existence takes our entire life, and is arguably the most important thing in life, isn't it? An unexamined life is not worth living."

-- No it is not necessarily "the most important thing in life". And as for "an unexamined life"... well you apparently don't seem to do much of that. You just parrot RS dogma.

"God does test the patience and persistence of seekers - Heaven is not granted easily, and why should it be?"

-- That is merely your blind assumption and belief in the supposed efficacy of struggle and effort towards a supposed salvation.... which is fundamentally a kind of sickness.

"There are a couple of references from the gospels on this. One is Jesus' statement that 'Many be called but few be chosen"."

-- Again, "Jesus" is a contrived (and combined) myth. It is a manipulation of history by the church.

"how many initiates say they cannot meditate....and the Master's response that they need to try harder."

-- Yes, such blatantly typical manipulative guru-cult rhetoric.

"You may say this contradicts the 4-lifetime guarantee, but it does not. The guarantee is conditional on the initiate doing their part, and leaving the rest to God."

-- There can be NO such "guarantee" beyond this lifetime. It is absurd.

"There is no question God holds the fat end of the stick, and fixes the rules of the game."

-- This reveals your tendency to religious authoritarianism.

"This may seem unfair, but the flip side is that if one accepts these rules, one can be fully restored to God's own status - that is surely more than enough compensation?"

-- "if one accepts these rules, one can be fully restored to God's own status"??? No, this is just an incredible load of bullshit and nonsense.

"As for whether the Master has power to keep track of karmas, or meet me at death's door - yes I know but this is what faith is."

-- Go ahead and live your life on lame blind faith if you want to. But its not very intelligent.

"I know from my personal experience with the Master that he does know what I am doing, and takes actions, sometimes to punish (to correct) and sometimes to protect. I do believe he will be there at death's door, because I know how often he has mystically protected me in this life."

-- Harinder, to put it simply, YOU are mentally ill. Your comment reveals what is called magical thinking, and that is indicative of delusion and mental illness.

"I am not going to go into details because these things are private and not to be revealed. [...] but thousands of other people have had similar experiences."

-- You are delusional. And NO, you do NOT know what thousands of other people have or have not experienced. You are merely projecting your own delusions upon others.

how do you know there is a God, and a Just One? Well I just know, but am not interested in providing proof to someone who does not know."

-- NO.... the simple fact is that you can NOT provide any such "proof".... ever. So don't try to bullshit your way around this.

".......and most Canadians (I live in Canada) do believe what goes around, comes around."

---WOW...I never knew that, I mean.....I never knew that.....

---We in Texas believe, that what can be hauled in a pickup truck, can also be hauled in a trailer, pulled by a pickup truck.

Dangit......I know and believe that...I really do....

Roger

Dear Harinder,

You wrote:

You may say this contradicts the 4-lifetime guarantee, but it does not. The guarantee is conditional on the initiate doing their part, and leaving the rest to God.


I think its wrong: I have heard many satsangs of Charan Singh and in his book The Master Answers as well he has clearly stated that once a soul is initiated the Master is going to take that soul back to the Lord within one birth, two births, three births but at the most in fourth births. It depends on that person as to how much he has to clear his karmas,so the guarantee is not at all conditional and further Charan Singh also said that an initiate can never be reborn in a lower specie.

Harinder,

I simply have one very important question for you, and then I will leave you alone:

Why are you VIOLATING the current RS masters formal published prohibition against all RS intiates posting, preaching, discussing, or debating anything related to Sant Mat on the internet???

In other words, are you not aware of this formal prohibition? Do you not respect that the RS internet prohibition IS in fact "the master's will" and is his published instructions to all initiated satsangis???

By your repeated preaching and discussing of Santmat in this comment forum, you are completely disregarding and violating his will - his instructions that were formally published more than 12 years ago (and have never been retracted).

You claim to be a devoted follower of Santmat and supposedly surrendered the master's will... but yet you turn around and ignore and violate the master's will.

If you are realy the RS initiate and follower that you claim to be, then you would no doubt NOT have engaged or continue to engage in deliberately violating the RSSB master's will in the form of his formal published instructions to all initiated RS satsangis.

The fact that you are now preaching and debating Santmat in this comment forum shows that, either you are not an initiate, or else you do not really respect the current RS masters Santmat internet prohibition.

Bottom line: Your continued discussion of Santmat is ample eveidence that you do not practice what you preach. If you were true to the wishes of the RSSB, then you would cease immediately.


Harinder,

Before you take tAo's advice and cease immediately I have a few responses. I may come off as a smart ass, but I think the issues I raise are legitimate..

You said: "Of course I don't know which lifetime Brian is in, but that is irrelevant. The point is he gave up - after 35 years of what seems to me of essentially 'faking it' - giving satsangs and writing books on things he didn't believe in or find satisfaction in."

--On what basis do you make this statement? Because you think that if the 35 years he put into the path were sincere he would have succeeded?

You said: "God does test the patience and persistence of seekers - Heaven is not granted easily, and why should it be?"

--Why shouldn't it be? Why shouldn't it be as plain as the back of your hand?

You said: "Thus many are initiated but only those who go through the tests will be successful."

--Think about it. Why would God require all these tests? What difference is it to him whether we go through tests or not? You make him out to be some sadistic puppet-master making us jump through all these hoops to get to what we already are, or in your view, to what we are destined to be. This seems rather sick and/or sophomoric like initiation into some college fraternity or street gang.

You said: " You may say this contradicts the 4-lifetime guarantee, but it does not. The guarantee is conditional on the initiate doing their part, and leaving the rest to God."

--So, the guarantee is conditional? Then maybe it will take 26 lifetimes if the initiate is a slouch and drinks beer, eats chicken wings, and bangs babes (or dudes) for four lifetimes instead of meditating and sticking to the vows?

You said: "...my belief has emerged strong."

--In other words, your faith has emerged strong. Nothing wrong with that as long as you admit it is faith and not direct knowledge or experience when discussing RS with others.

You said: "Your argument about the Master's ability to track karma or be at death's door is similar to the atheist's argument - how do you know there is a God, and a Just One? Well I just know, but am not interested in providing proof to someone who does not know. They have their destiny and I have mine."

--Why not provide proof so that those who do not know can know? Yes, your destiny is to have faith in a concept of some future gain for yourself in some theoretical region of light and bliss earned via hard work and virtue. Others prefer not to go on faith, but rather on the immensity of what is immediately available and perceptible as it is right now.


Harinder, you really don't understand much about life or truth-seeking.

Life changes. Perceptions of what is true change. If we didn't change, we'd be dead.

Because I've grown in my understanding over the years, somehow you consider this "faking it" when I believed differently. That's ridiculous.

I've been married twice. I wasn't faking love for my first wife during the time I was married to her. But we gradually grew apart and the love dimmed.

Same with RSSB/Sant Mat. I was a true believer for over thirty years. Now I am an "I don't know."

Haven't you ever changed your mind about something? If so, I guess this means, according to your way of thinking, that you were faking your original thought.

Brian:

1. You wrote: "Why should anyone believe that God exists when there is no demonstrable evidence of this?" I ask you on what basis you spent 35 years preaching to others a path to God, as well as books about the same, if you had no 'demonstrable evidence' that God exists? What possessed you to get up on a podium and lecture to others how to find God, when you had no proof? The Sant Mat masters never asked to be taken at their word - they consistently said - go in and see for yourself. Did you? And if you found nothing, why did you preach to others? Was this not hypocrisy?

2. Bacteria have existed for perhaps millions of years. But humans only found 'demonstrable evidence' in the 17th century when magnifying glasses were invented. Does that mean the bacteria never existed.

There are plenty of evangelical preachers on TV who go on and on about 'Jesus' this and 'Jesus' that. How many do you think are true prophets, and how many false?

If you never got any real satisfaction from the 35 years in Sant Mat, whether mystical or emotional or other, you had no business lecturing to others or writing books. You were merely parroting things you had no internal experience of.

Sorry but that's how I see it. Life does change us, but not our central beliefs. Isn't that the meaning of 'faith' - something that withstands trials and tribulations?


Ha ha, well said, Roger...

So you're from Texas, land of that 'born-again' Christian named Georgie Bush Jr?

Don't know what you think of him, but I think he was full of it...

Regards.

Juan:

1. Master Charan Singh pointed out that the Bible edits out many other relevant gospels (eg. Thomas, Mary Magdalene)and the Church also suppressed many things. But that does not invalidate the entire Bible. He did after all write "Light on St. Matthew".

2. Where can I get the abstract of the speech you refer to?

3. The Master's commitment is inviolable, but the initiate also makes a vow, doesn't he/she? It is the human tendency to want a free ride, to have the freedom to break one's own vow and side of the bargain, and still expect the Master to fulfill his.. Is this fair? Eg. is it the Master's obligation to redeem in 4 lifetimes someone who has spent those lifetimes raping, killing, pillaging? "You cannot be serious", as Johnny Mac used to say.

Tucson:

I wrote a long response to your queries, but the site didn't accept it - maybe it was too long. Here is a shorter version:

1. On Brian's 35 years - I did not imply that 35 years of 'sincere' effort would necessarily have given him success. I said the contrary - that it is not the seeker's place to impose a deadline for salvation, whether 35 years or whatever. It is not in the seeker's hands. That is the higher Power's decision and discretion - it could be 4 lifetimes or perhaps even 4 years. Claiming the path is false because the inner light did not come within a self-prescribed schedule is trying to impose one's own will on God.

I have already replied to Brian questioning why he got up on a podium to lecture others on the path to God, if he never himself found any evidence or internal validation of the truth of what he was preaching. I'll leave it at that.

2. Why shouldn't Heaven come easy as the back of a hand? Frankly now that seems a silly question. What in life does? It seems you would like God to be at your beck and call and give you or any other human being whatever you want (eg. billions of dollars, all the sex and women you want, etc) regardless of whether or not you have earned or deserved it. What would that make you? The Divine Intelligence has chosen not to make people parasites who get what they want without earning it, and has imposed rules and accountability, though the accountability is not entirely straight-forward for reasons I will not go into today. That Intelligence has decreed, and justly in my opinion, that everything must be earned. Including heaven.

3. Paradoxically there is a place where you get everything you want without effort... forever. (So we are told by every scripture, saint, mystic and philosopher, and I believe them). That is Heaven. But the catch is Heaven must also be earned. Don't you work for a living? Doesn't your relationship with a wife or gf require work? Things that come too easy don't satisfy, and are not appreciated. They are taken for granted, and frequently abused.

4. Why does God require tests? Not because It is a sadist but because the ultimate prize (Heaven) deserves to be given only to the most worthy.

5. Proofs. I have them but the teaching is that these are not matters to be disclosed. What happens between a Master and seeker is 'strictly confidential'.

6. Conditional guarantee. See my response to Juan. Everyone wants a free ride and to skip the fine print. There are definite conditions to this path - and you should know them - meditation, abstinence from meat and alcohol, moral life etc. What you seem to imply is that it should be okay for a person to life a completely immoral life (i.e animal and carnal life) and still qualify for Heaven..... But that violates reason and the rules of God. If you prefer the material world, you get to stay in it - indefinitely, in conditions you may not like at all. If you're sick of it, though, and want to go to a better place, a Master can help. Provided one does one's part, by keeping the vows one has made, which will slowly replace the love of carnal matter with a higher love. Wherever thy treasure is, there thy heart will be, and where thy heart is, surely that is where thy body will be - do you not see the logic in this?

I think I will take a rest from this site for a while now.

Best regards.

Harinder, you're getting tiresome. Preachy, judgmental, illogical. You like to ask questions. Why don't you answer some for a change?

(1) Do you have proof that God exists? Or that the RSSB guru is God? If so, please provide it. If not, stop with the nonsense that every person who gives a satsang under RSSB auspices is supposed to be God-realized. Where did you get that idea? Do you know anything about Sant Mat? Doesn't seem like it. I know many people who give RSSB satsangs. I don't know any who claim that they have proof of God's existence.

(2) Are you a RSSB initiate? If not, are you an initiate of some other Sant Mat guru? I suspect that all you are is someone who likes to preach what you've read in some books. Because as tAo pointed out, if you are a RSSB initiate you're defying the guru's instructions by arguing about Sant Mat and getting all preachy on the Internet. So you don't have any business telling other people that they've failed to live up to Sant Mat precepts when you aren't doing that yourself.

Please, get a life. Either take part in conversations here like a normal human being, or go play your dogmatic games on someone else's blog. You come onto a Church of the Churchless site and are amazed to find that people here don't believe in God, or aren't sure God exists.

Here's a suggestion: head over to a People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) web site, or blog, and start preaching at them about how they should be advocating that animals should be used for painful experiments, or raised inhumanely for food.

That makes as much sense as telling "churchless" people that they should believe your form of religious fundamentalism.

Harwani, a P.S.

No, you're wrong about core beliefs never changing. This also shows how out of touch you are with reality. My wife is a psychotherapist. Her job for many years was helping people to change their core beliefs.

Have you ever heard of conversions? How people believe one thing, like God doesn't exist, and then "find Jesus"? Or the reverse: how people believe in God for a long time, then are unconverted and become atheists or agnostics?

You seem to live in a strange world of your own ideas, not the real world. I suggest you get out more. Talk to lots of people. Have an open mind. This is what "faith" is: trust that reality can be known, albeit imperfectly perhaps, if we keep our mind open to new evidence and fresh facts.

Faith doesn't mean sticking with one belief system no matter what. That's called "fundamentalism." It's why the Catholic Church resisted the evidence that the Earth orbits the Sun, rather than the other way around. And why you are so resistant to hearing evidence that your beliefs aren't true.

Harinder,

Well its now obvious that you have choosen to ignore, in as much as you continue to violate the RSSB master's prohibition against the discussion of Santmat on the internet. Of course, you are entirely free to do as you please. However, it does show that you do not respect the RS master's wishes, and thus you do not practice what you advocate and preach in this forum.

On the other hand, please understand that I am not suggesting that you should or that you must cease posting and leave here. I actually encourage you to follow your own heart and mind, and to do as you like. But just don't be preaching and telling others to respect the RS master, when you yourself do not.

Also, its obvious to me that you are now unable to acknowledge or respond my communications to you because you cannot handle your beliefs and your blind faith being challenged by both facts and by penetrating inquiry.

"The Sant Mat masters never asked to be taken at their word - they consistently said - go in and see for yourself."

-- The problem with that deceptive little trick is, is that there is nothing to see within that can ever actually prove anything. So there is no proof, ever.

"And if you found nothing, why did you preach to others? Was this not hypocrisy?"

-- If that is hypocrisy, then it is also the same hypocrisy when other satsang lecturers and even the master himself, "preaches to others".

"evangelical preachers on TV who go on and on about 'Jesus' [...] How many do you think are true prophets, and how many false?"

-- There are no "true prophets". None whatsoever. Not christian, and not santmat either. It is simply all a myth. There are ONLY ordinary human beings, across the entire world.

"that's how I see it. Life does change us, but not our central beliefs."

-- No. Life and time tends to change all and everything, and that can and does include changing "central beliefs" as well.

"Master Charan Singh [...] He did after all write "Light on St. Matthew"."

-- Hmmm... I rather thought it was called "Light on St. John". Anybody here have a copy of that book?

"The Master's commitment is inviolable"

-- "inviolable"??? Now that is a crock of you-know-what if there ever was one. You really aren't that naive, are you Harinder?

"It is the human tendency to [...] to break one's own vow and side of the bargain, and still expect the Master to fulfill his."

-- No, I don't expect any such thing. The so-called "master" does nothing. He fulfils nothing. He gives nothing. He has nothing to give. He only takes. He takes the devotion of fools, and he takes their adulation, and their attention, and of course he takes lots of their money. He doesn't give anything back. Nothing. He doesn't give anybody one damn thing. Show me one thing that he himself has given.

"it (is) the Master's obligation to redeem in 4 lifetimes [...] You cannot be serious", as Johnny Mac used to say."

-- How absurd. YOU cannot be serious.

"Tucson: I wrote a long response to your queries, but the site didn't accept it maybe it was too long."

-- Fyi: That only happens because you exceeded the time limit on composing your message. And so next time, you simply need to first 'save' or 'copy' your compostion 9so you don't lose it), and then REFRESH your browser... before you finally click on "Post".

"it is not the seeker's place to impose a deadline for salvation, whether 35 years or whatever."

-- There is no such "salvation". Salvation is notjhing but a myth. Its is merely an idea that is used to advantage by religion to manipulate the ignorant. There is no salvation necessary. Everything simply is... As It Is. There is no one who needs saving, and no savior, and therefore no salvation. Salvation is a false doctrine.

"It is not in the seeker's hands."

-- Wrong. Dead wrong. Everything is in the seeker's hands. It is ALL in the seeker's hands.

"That is the higher Power's decision and discretion"

-- Balogna. There is no one "higher" making any such decisions or discretions. It is painfully obvious that you are living in a very naive fantasy world Harinder.

"Why shouldn't Heaven come easy as the back of a hand? Frankly now that seems a silly question. What in life does?"

-- Life does.

"It seems you would like God to be at your beck and call and give you or any other human being whatever you want [...] The Divine Intelligence has chosen [...] and has imposed rules and accountability"

-- You are living in a dreamland Harinder.

That Intelligence has decreed, and justly in my opinion, that everything must be earned. Including heaven."

-- Bullshit. That is a lie. There was/is NO such 'decree'. And there is no other "Intelligence" apart from the innate awareness that is all conscious beings. The truth of the matter is that, when it comes to real insight and understanding, effort is a sickness.

As I have long suspected, you obviously don't know squat about anything that you are talking about Harinder.

"Paradoxically there is a place where you get everything you want without effort... forever. That is Heaven."

-- You are living in a total fantasy dream world. It's really rather sad.... namely deluded people like you.

"Why does God require tests? [...] because the ultimate prize (Heaven) deserves to be given only to the most worthy."

-- You are one SICK dude Harinder. Your God is a tyrant. Your God is a pig. And your God, is a god-damn illusion.

"Proofs. I have them but the teaching is that these are not matters to be disclosed."

-- YOU are a LIAR Harinder. YOU have no such "Proofs". There are no such "Proofs". And your lame excuse is transparently LAME.

"What happens between a Master and seeker is 'strictly confidential'."

-- You are so utterly full of shit.

"that violates reason and the rules of God."

-- Btw dimwit, you don't speak for God.

"a Master can help."

-- This "Master" idea is a myth.

In conclusion (and at the risk of being a bit redundant), I will echo some relevant points that Brian made:

"Harinder, you're getting tiresome. Preachy, judgmental, illogical. You like to ask questions. Why don't you answer some for a change?"

"Do you have proof that God exists? Or that the RSSB guru is God? If so, please provide it."

"Are you a RSSB initiate? [...] I suspect that all you are is someone who likes to preach what you've read in some books. [...] if you are a RSSB initiate you're defying the guru's instructions by arguing about Sant Mat and getting all preachy on the Internet. So you don't have any business telling other people that they've failed to live up to Sant Mat precepts when you aren't doing that yourself."

"Either take part in conversations here like a normal human being, or go play your dogmatic games on someone else's blog."

"You seem to live in a strange world of your own ideas, not the real world."

-- And especially: Don't be "telling churchless people that they should believe your form of religious fundamentalism".

Tao,

"you continue to violate the RSSB master's prohibition against the discussion of Santmat on the internet"
--- Where do you get this from? As far as I understand RSSB encourages one to question and to select the correct master.

"But just don't be preaching and telling others to respect the RS master"
--- Was this a bit like you telling me i'm the new kid on the block and need to show some reverence to an old fart like you?

"you cannot handle your beliefs and your blind faith being challenged by both facts and by penetrating inquiry"
--- Practice what you preach. You mean in the same way i challenged your beliefs in dzogchen and the master/student relationship? Why don't you actually have the courage to put your beliefs on the line for everyone to scrutinize, rather than sitting back picking holes in everything like some pedantic old grannie.

"So there is no proof, ever"
--- What proof is their of Dzogchen or the existence of a primordial state?

"You are one SICK dude Harinder. Your God is a tyrant. Your God is a pig. And your God, is a god-damn illusion."
--- Just who is the sick pig fundamentalist? Dear god man you are clearly away with the fairies. Hypocrasy of the highest order.

Finally, please stop sucking up to Brian, its embaressing to watch a grown man engage in such psychophantic behaviour. Grow some balls man. Are you man or mouse?

yliadin,
i see u too have picked up om the gratuitous harinder-bashing by this tAo character.

what is this nonsense?

my god man, i dont believe in all this RSSB stuff, but one should be allowed to believe what they want without being called a 'pigfuck'.

Its just not cricket, what what.


Tao,
I'm convinved you need to go back to India for another 20 years to learn some tolerance - either than or smoke a shedload of doob cos your fascist intolerant rhetoric reminds me of an infamous wee austrian munter with a moustache.

Dear Harinder and yliadin,
I wonder what your reaction would be if you knew that Gurinder regularly monitors this site and knows exactly what goes on here.In fact he might even applaud Brian's sentiments.
I also wonder if you carry on like this when in front of your guru.If you believe your guru is God and knows what you think and do.Do you think he would approve of your behaviour?
I'snt Sant Mat considered a path of bahkti?
Have you stoped for a moment to consider what is the role of this blog.
This blog is a mirror.Satsangis come here and show
themselves as they really are.The nice satsangi mask is of and the real person underneath shows
Think who is reflecting who.
Be grateful such a site as this exists.It is here
so that satsangis can know themselves.
With
Love
Obed

Dear All,
What I wrote above just popped into the mind.I take no
blame or credit for what is written.
"Everything that happens, does so to help reveal a greater experience of truth."
Love
Obed

Obed,

Wise calm words, but seems to me that if ex-satsangis have a bone to pick with current satsangis - and are intent in doing it with such vigour and personal insult - then those freedoms need to be extended both ways.

Ppl should also be allowed to defend their beliefs.

All the best
George

George, yliadin almost certainly is Ashy using another name, so his comments have been deleted, just as Ashy's were. Ashy promised to stop his infantile insults if I left a few last rants of his up, which I did. Then he broke his promise and started with his ranting again.

No, people aren't allowed to defend their beliefs on this blog, not when all they do is spew dogmatic fundamentalism and aren't willing to engage in comment conversations with other people.

As I've said before, it's like someone going into a coffee shop and telling a group of people who are talking at a table, "You need to stop talking to each other! You're deluded! You're wrong!" The guy would be told to take a hike, because he has no right to tell other people what they can, or can't discuss.

I'm all for open discussion. But like most blog hosts, I have to preserve a commenting atmosphere that preserves the purpose of this blog. People who want to preach the dogmas of a particular religion should do so on another blog or site. People who are only interested in insulting me should find something better to do with their time.

I'll continue deleting comments that don't fit with what I'm trying to do here on the Church of the Churchless. This is common on blogs, unfortunately -- people ("trolls," as they're called) who interfere with discussions on subjects they object to.

Free speech is great. But not when it interferes with the free speech of other people.

"Ppl should also be allowed to defend their beliefs."

---I strongly believe in my pickup's ability to haul stuff. I shall defend my belief until I die. My faith in Haulism is strong and true. God is on my step-side. My path is a Haulin to Heaven. Gotta go.
I'm haulin ass to the library.
Roger

Brian

Yip, its your blog, but I do think that censorship then has to cut both ways.

There's another chap on here who is most intolerant and gets exceptionally personal. I think its a bit much that he's allowed to have a full tilt at any passing windmill without admonishment, while the ppl whose person and beliefs are being so personally targetted and insulted are unable to respond.

A bit of 'fairplay' is called for.

"So you're from Texas, land of that 'born-again' Christian named Georgie Bush Jr?"

---Never endorsed George Bush Jr. However, I did enjoy listening to Ron Paul. He, imo, is very interesting.

---Texas is the land of other things too. Hogs, goats, cows, live oak trees, gas-oil wells, dinosaur tracks and other good stuff.

Roger

George, there are differences between Ashy and tAo. That said, I wish everybody who left comments on this blog would refrain from intense profanity and personal insults. But this is the nature of the Internet, unfortunately.

The distinction I make is what a person is trying to accomplish with profanity and/or insults. And whether this is all they do, or whether they also are engaging in "normal" comment conversations on churchless subjects.

Conversations get heated, whether in person or on the Internet. That's fine. But what I won't tolerate on this blog is intolerance of discussing churchlessness, because that is the purpose here.

If someone wants to openly and honestly defend some faith or religion, great. I've made that offer to Ashy, for example, numerous times. But the offer wasn't accepted, because all he wants to do is call this blog "fundamentalist" since people here don't accept uncritically his religious belief system.

I regularly delete comments from other people that are simply a rehash of some theological dogma. And there's obviously no place for comments that rant on and on about how useless this blog is.

I always think when I read a comment like that, "Dude, if this blog is so useless, what are you doing spending your time trying to leave comments on it?"

Dear George,
I cant reply for Brian but the chap you are talking about I suspect is actually a very sensitive,kindly person.Every now again I think more by accident than design this chap posts something that to me belies the image he likes to project.
I remember one post which was a warm very introverted and touching post.Of course that type of post did not last but I like to believe
that most of us who do post here reflect to a certain extent our more 3D personalities.
Please understand, the chap we are talking about does not need me to talk for him but I feel I would be doing him a disservice if I did not say I dont fully agree with you and to ask you to give it time.
With kindest regards
Obed

Final word (I think):

I have done what I wanted to do - challenge the misinterpretations and false information given on this site by flakes and hypocrites who never truly accepted or understood the Sant Mat philosophy. I occasionally used harsh language, which I regret.

It is possible I may return but I see some people will believe what they want to. As even tA0 said, in the midst of his ridiculous rants, that debate and discussion can be misused and be futile. It is true the path is an internal one, not one to be argued about.

As for you Brian, I will say you are one big fat hypocrite. You preached for 35 years something you never truly believed, because it gave you pleasure to get up on a podium and lecture to others. The same vain pleasure motivated your book 'Life is Fair', which by now you also will disown, won't you?

This may the the Church of the Churchless, but it is not officially called the Church of the Godless. Perhaps that is what it should be called. But Jesus, who the 'Church' claims it is founded on, never asked for a Church at all. He taught the opposite. He taught that those who pray in public for public show (in those days there were no 'Churches', only temples and synagogues) get public acclaim as reward, but nothing more from God. That is what Brian was seemingly upto in those 35 years of preaching and writing things that he now says were lies.

Yes Brian you (not I) are now saying you lied during all those satsangs you gave - that everything you preached was hokum. What does that say about you? Are you not a fake, and a flake? Where will you be 5 or 10 years from now? Which philosophy will you be preaching then, and on which forum?

True prayer, Jesus taught, was to go into your own home, shut the door, and privately communicate with the Force, which would then hear and reward it. That is also where the true Sant Mat is to be found - in true meditation.

Even the medical establishment has endorsed meditation (not even the spiritual kind) as immensely valuable to reduce stress and increase longevity. But to this fake Brian - 35 years of meditation gave no benefits. I wonder if he meditated, and what in fact was he meditating on.

He claims to know the teachings, but has never bothered to question whether his own application was sincere. It never occurred to him to ask if the 'soil' (him) was rocky and barren. Much easier to blame the seed as useless.

But as Shakespeare put it, 'the fault, dear Brutus, lies within...".

Too bad. But you are the loser Brian, and the pathetic few who listen to your 'turn-coat' betrayal of a path you once took pleasure in marketing.

In truth, you are more to be pitied than censured.

No doubt you and your followers will respond to this post with a bunch of attacks on me. Go ahead. I have said my piece and am satisfied I have done the right thing.

One last point. I am not an animal-rights activist, and will not follow your ridiculous advice about PETA. I know there are consequences for actions, and what I kill today will one day kill me. You don't believe this anymore, after 35 years of preaching the contrary? Well that's your choice.

But you will find out the hard way, when you will be reborn as the chicken or lamb you kill to eat today, and are cut to pieces to fill someone else's belly. Or did you imagine that you chose the human body and circumstances that you got in this incarnation? You didn't. Neither did your parents with their copulation. It was the Unseen Force that chose. And your choices in this life will determine where that Force chooses to incarnate you the next time. You will find this out, the hard way.

Good luck.

Fair enough Brian.

Understood Obed, you seem a very decent chap.

Good god HArinder, your last paragraph has scared the living bejesus into me. i am a ravenous meat-eater, f'ck me, i'm going to burn ....

Harinder, you didn't read (or understand) what I just said in a previous comment, did you? Obviously you aren't interested in expanding your understanding, just in preaching to the non-choir.

I told you that I did, repeat DID, believe in Sant Mat for the thirty years or so I was a devoted satsangi. Yet you repeat your baseless contention that I was a fake during all those years. That's absolutely wrong, and I totally reject your lie.

You are a dogmatic fundamentalist, so you can't understand how an open-minded person can change his or her mind. I was a sincere satsangi for over three decades. Now I'm an equally sincere seeker of truth who doesn't subscribe to any dogma except the open-minded "I don't know."

I still have a lot of fondness for Radha Soami Satsang Beas and the guru who initiated me, Charan Singh. I have shed many tears over the years in his memory, both during meditation and outside of it. You have no right to assume that you understand the level of my devotion to Charan Singh, or my love for him.

Regarding the book I wrote, Life is Fair. As I've mentioned before on this blog, one day the phone rang and I answered a call from India. The head of the RSSB Publications Department, Faith Singh, told me that Charan Singh had wanted to have a small book available that he could hand to people that explained the karmic rationale for vegetarianism.

Faith said that some other people had been working on a draft of such a book, but the project had stalled and a new direction needed to be taken. She asked if I was willing to attempt writing the book.

I said "Yes." I was deeply moved by the idea that I could help fulfill a wish of my dearly beloved guru, who died in 1990. For several years after that I spent countless hours researching, writing, and then re-writing the book after equally countless comments and requests for edits came back from the Publications Department.

All at my own expense, of course.

Eventually Faith asked me to come to India for a few weeks to finish the book, because it was tough to do via email and fax. I said, "Sure." Faith then said, "You know that your name won't be on the book; it will be anonymous." I said, "I don't care."

I went to India. Finished the book. It ended up having my name on it. I was pleased (yes, I have an ego), but I was willing to spend years writing it without credit to fulfill a desire of Charan Singh's.

So, please, don't give me any more crap about faking it. When you've been me, and shed my tears of devotion for Charan Singh, only then do you have the right to tell me how I felt about Sant Mat and the RSSB path. Which means, you don't have that right.

Harinder, a P.S. after re-reading your last paragraph: I've been a vegetarian since 1969. I still am a vegetarian. I still meditate every day. I don't follow other Sant Mat vows as strictly as before, or at all (I'll eat an egg white now and then). But your idea that I've turned into some sort of carnivorous heathen is absurd.

My comment about PETA was made in an attempt to show that if you challenge the basic precept of any blog or web site, you aren't going to get very far there. Try going into a Christian church service some day and start yelling, "You must believe in Allah, infidels!" You'll be escorted out the door if you don't shut up.

I'm more courteous and accommodating to preachy commenters like you. But there's a limit. Which, as noted above, you've crossed when you tell me that I faked my commitment and devotion to Sant Mat and my guru for thirty plus years.

Are you married? Do you have a girlfriend? Have you had only one serious relationship in your life? How would you like it if I said, "Harinder, you've been faking your love for ____"? I'd have no right to say that, because I have no idea what is in your heart. Neither do you.

Dear,dear Harinder,
Dont be so certain.You are in your true essence
uncertainty.You cannot escape it by trying to make certainty.Uncertainty will come back and sweep you off your feet.What I was trying to tell you with love and kindness and from my own inner experiences.You are The Formless and by giving love and acceptance to your own dear self you are at the same time loving The Formless which is your dear self.
By all means at this time in your life do what you feel is true to yourself but dont close the door on
what people have said here.
I for one really wish you well.
Love
Obed

To: George

[I had said in previous comments: "the RSSB master's prohibition against the discussion of Santmat on the internet"]

George, you then asked: "Where do you get this from? As far as I understand RSSB encourages one to question and to select the correct master.

-- If you were an initated RS satsangi, then you would already be familar with this RS internet prohibition. This was formally and officially published to all satsangis (via official RSSB newsletters) back around 1997. It was made quite direct and clear that ALL initiated RS satsangis were advised to NOT discuss, debate, preach, or promote Santmat or RS teachings in any way whatsoever on the Internet, (and that included e-mail, message boards, chat forums, and so forth).

The fact that you seem to doubt me and to challange me on this matter, tells me that you somehow assume that you know more about RS than I do, and that you think that I am fabricating false info. But I would not have mentioned and posted this info if it were not true. You are apparently very reluctant to acknowledge that I am an honest person and that my comments are factual. So I feel that your response here is an indication that your underlying attitude towards me kind of sucks. Why don't you just stop your little ego-battle game and simply join in a more open-minded and fair discussion... and quit defending posters and trolls who post blatant fundamentalist rhetoric.

"just don't be preaching and telling others to respect the RS master" --- Was this a bit like you telling me i'm the new kid on the block and need to show some reverence to an old fart like you?"

-- No, not at all. And also, I have never said that you should "show some reverence" towards me or towards anyone. That is a gross distortion of my words and my meaning.

"you cannot handle your beliefs and your blind faith being challenged by both facts and by penetrating inquiry" --- Practice what you preach."

-- I DO. So you cannot show anywhere that I don't.

"You mean in the same way i challenged your beliefs in dzogchen and the master/student relationship?"

-- Wrong. I don't have such "beliefs in dzogchen". Again, dzogchen is not at all about any kind of beliefs. Nor is there some "master/student relationship" as you seem to want to imply.


"Why don't you actually have the courage to put your beliefs on the line for everyone to scrutinize"

-- Again, I don't hold any such "beliefs" as you are trying to assert. Dzogchen is not a belief, and I have already shared quite alot about dzogchen ("for everyone to scrutinize") in previous months and years past. So I don't have to keep doing it again and again just for you. There has never been anything that I have shared that was not open to scrutiny or inquiry. So your challenge here has no basis.

"rather than sitting back picking holes in everything like some pedantic old grannie."

-- I don't post any such "pedantic" stuff (unlike these fundamentist RS satsangis). And I do "pick", or rather point out, the holes that already exist in the dogma that others try to preach here. As Brian has told you, this site is not for preaching dogma. But you seem to continue to think that the dogmatists should be able use this site as a venue to preach and promote their dogma. We are simply not interested in their dogma (of which we are already quite familiar). If you are interested in that, then you should go discuss that with them somewhere else.

So I can only conclude that you still do not understand the purpose and orientation of this site. You seem to think that this site is an open venue for people to preach and impose all their beliefs, and that they have a right to do so. If that's what you desire, then you should simply move over to the "radhasoamistudies" Yahoo Group, which is a non-moderated public message board forum, where anyone can post (and argue, debate, etc) any sort of Santmat or spiritual dogma they choose.

"What proof is their of Dzogchen or the existence of a primordial state?"

-- You misunderstand. That dzogchen is simply Awareness. (there is not some other 'state' apart from awareness) So there is no proof needed for awareness. The existence of awareness is obvious.

"Just who is the sick pig fundamentalist?"

-- Those who tout their authoritarian fundamentlist ideas of a tyrannical God.

"Hypocrasy of the highest order."

-- Where is this hypocrisy? Lets see it. Show exactly and precisely where/what you think an hypocrisy.

"Finally, please stop sucking up to Brian, its embaressing to watch a grown man engage in such psychophantic behaviour."

-- I don't suck-up to anyone George. I simply acknowledge Brian when I feel that he has made some good points. Also, I am about as un-sychophantic as anyone could ever be. Your derogatory charges are baseless and have no substance or reality... and your demeaning attitude sucks. And this personally derogatory battle that you are waging against me clearly borders on troll-like.

"Grow some balls man. Are you man or mouse?"

-- You don't know shit about me George. You certainly would not be saying that to my face if you were to encounter me in person. Only pretentious little punks talk like you do. Someday you'll try to pull that shit-ass attitide on some dude like me, and he'll beat the living crap out of you. And punks like you, deserve it.

The bottom-line is: George, you are bringing a rather bad crappy vibe to this forum. Your personally derogatory remarks (especially towards me) are cheap and sleazy, and more importantly they have no basis in fact. And also, your continued irrational and unfounded defense and support of what is obvious fundamentalist rhetoric and dogma, indicates that you are probably another troll.

Also, if you don't like me bashing RS satsangis and their fundamentalist dogma, then why don't YOU stop being personally derogatory and bashing me (and usually in the form of a straw-man)???

"i dont believe in all this RSSB stuff, but one should be allowed to believe what they want without being called a 'pigfuck'."

-- No one here said that people can not BELIEVE whatever they want. The issue is that they have no right to preach or IMPOSE their beliefs on others, and self-righteously judge others based upon those dogmatic beliefs.

"Tao, I'm convinved you need to go back to India for another 20 years to learn some tolerance"

-- George, it is YOU who are the intolerant one. But you don't see that yet, because you are so full of yourself. You don't know anything about me George. You don't know anyting about my life, or about my life in India. You have absolutley no basis to call me intolerant. Your perspective is warped and skewed and distorted. It is the RS and religious fundamentalists who are the intolerant ones.

"your fascist intolerant rhetoric"

-- You are as far off the mark about me as you could possibly be. And you obviously don't know what fascism means. Fascism is when the State merges with the Corporate, and vice versa. The USA is an example of a country that is now very quickly becoming an actual real fascist state.

So, for all your supposed great scientific knowledge, you really aren't very well informed. You ought to go study and learn what fascism is really all about.

You can become informed about that (and much more) here:

http://www.infowars.com

http://www.prisonplanet.com


Then hopefully you will begin to see that I am not your enemy that you have so mistakenly chosen to disrespect me and portray me as being. And maybe then you will also join the ranks of those who chose to stand up and defend humanity against the fascists and the totalitarian global elitists, instead of being ignorant and uninformed, and part of the problem.

Dear Brian:

I do apologize for the harsh words I have used. They are uncharacteristic of any satsangi. I really must watch how I react - that is my own struggle with my anger and perhaps vanity.

The Lord does work in mysterious ways. Some of the 'karma' of the harsh language I used came back to me in the form of the insults from tA0. So even his anger served a purpose.

I guess what I have been trying to say is that one should truly assimilate and digest a philosophy before preaching it. But I won't say more.

In fact, let me say something else that I truly do believe. Regardless of your feelings about it, the 35 years of your service have been recorded by the Force. I have no way of proving this to you, and it doesn't matter since you won't believe me. If you ever see the light again, and do return to the fold, your previous service will help you.

Even if you do not, service is service, even if done without full understanding. Naturally the more sincerely and deeply service is done, the greater its value.

Whatever you gave of your own time and expense is a sacrifice that will bear fruit, whether you believe it or not. As for the eating of meat, the logic of it should be obvious to you, as you wrote the book.

However for the benefit of others who have written on this site that there are no consequences, let me give an illustration. The cows, sheep, chickens and so on that are slaughtered to fill human bellies also value their own lives as much as we do. Just as we would not want someone (eg. a visiting army of extra-terrestrials) to come and cut our throats to fill their bellies, the animals we kill don't want to be killed.

However you see the universe - Godless for instance - there is a natural law of justice which operates - we don't see its full operation because that is part of the illusion. For creation to function and have meaning, it is necessary for life to exist. Life exists because billions of creatures are kept in ignorance of their divinity and in love with matter. This is also the Will of whatever Power, eg, Nature or Science that you believe runs this creation.

That power does not operate without principle. Just as if you or I were killed by others and would want justice, the animals we kill also are entitled to and receive justice. But that justice is hard to see without a deep study of life. Eg. did Hitler get justice simply by killing himself? No it came after his death and will run for a very long time. So will it be with George Bush Jr. and Dick Cheney, murderers of some 700,000 innocent Iraqi civilians and robbers of their oil. For now, it seems that George and Dick have gotten away with it. But that is an illusion.

The worlds were created in darkness, but a light was also given. A gigantic prison of carnality was created (just look at Discovery channel if you don't beiieve me - how big fish eat small ones, etc), but an escape hatch was also created. We can choose to love the prison or work for freedom. We can love the world of bodies with sexual passion, the eating of meat from slain animals and so on, or we can try to find a higher existence. But even that is destiny. Even the atheists and agnostics are acting out the parts they have been given. Ultimately, the Force rules.

Peace be with you.

Harinder.

Dear Obed:

Thank you for your kind and gentle words on more than one occasion. I was too busy replying to other posts to acknowledge yours.

I will reflect on what you have said. It is certainly true that those who are 'certain' of themselves become fanatics and fundamentalists who cause more harm than good.

At the same time, I think I have come to accept certain beliefs after long and deep reflection on life. I am not simply regurgitating the theory of Sant Mat. I think that perhaps that is what happened to Brian.

Theory is only theory - it only becomes valuable when tested in the crucible of life.

I believe I have tested much of what I have said. Of course the possibility exists I could be wrong. One should never be too certain of oneself, as you correctly say.

Best regards.

Harinder.

Brian:

it appears you fell 'out of love' with Sant Mat when Master Charan Singh passed away. Baba Gurinder's way of doing things has apparently not touched your heart. That is your decision.

Two comments:

1. I have already mentioned that style is not substance. Let me explain why the present Master's style seems tougher. Too many people 'skate on the surface' of Sant Mat. They selectively hear what they want to, and ignore what they do not want. Many examples exist but one will suffice. Even Tucson who was a follower for nearly 20 years under the former Master asked (see above posts) whether the Master was not bound to honor his commitment to an initiate who ate chickens and slept with plenty of women. That suggests Tucson did not understand that the initiate also takes vows that he/she must honor. It is not just a matter of contractual obligation - wanting something without giving something. There is a deeper principle involved. If an initiate wants to continue 'eating chickens' and having sex with multiple partners, and so on, that initiate is still in love with carnality. How can the carnal be allowed to rise to the spiritual. Carnality must be overcome. But after 20 years of initiation, should Tucson even haved asked such a question?

The body is the temple of the 'Living God'. But it is also the temple of carnality. The Living God cannot manifest until the temple has been cleared of carnality and carnal desire. That is the law and it is logical and just.

2. But people seem to want a free ride, and with Master Charan Singh's seemingly 'kinder and gentler' style, they continued to 'skate on the surface'. So the present Master has toughened the message, so people understand Sant Mat is not a free ride - there is serious work involved. And you seem to have been taken in by the superficial toughness. Underneath is the same kindness of the former Master. To appreciate this, all you need do is observe the present Master's own reverence to his predecessor; the love in his voice whenever he mentions the former Master.

Enough said.

Harinder, again -- not true. Suggestion: think less about me, or other people, and more about yourself. Judge less and seek your own truth more. You're making a lot of mistakes by believing you know things about me that you're only guessing at.

I remained a devoted RSSB satsangi for many years after Charan Singh's death. I liked Gurinder Singh a lot. We got along great. I wrote all three of my books with Gurinder Singh's encouragement and advice.

I'll confess that I only skimmed the rest of your comment, after seeing how mistaken you were in the first paragraph. Again, my suggestion is that you use your own mind and experience to try to figure things out, rather than imagining that other people are such and such or so and so.

Harinder said:

"I have done what I wanted to do - challenge the misinterpretations and false information given on this site by flakes and hypocrites who never truly accepted or understood the Sant Mat philosophy."

-- Among others here, you are also calling ME a flake and a hypocrite and saying that I have never undersood Santmat. Fyi, I was an RS initiate (and practiced RS meditation) for 30 years. I too have read and studied ALL the RS books (and many more) and have visited the RS Dera at Beas and have personally discussed Santmat with Huzur Charan Singh numerous times. That entitles me and gives me the right to comment about the subject of Santmat. However, YOU have NO such right to call anyone who has studied and practiced Santmat for 30 years a "flake" and a "hypocrite". You have shown your true colors. Because if you really are a genuine initiated satsangi, you would have respect for that. But you don't.

"As even tA0 said, in the midst of his ridiculous rants"

-- You seem to blind to the fact that YOUR OWN comments have been blatantly dogmatic rants.

"for you Brian, I will say you are one big fat hypocrite."

-- What gives you the right to call Brian a hypocrite? Have YOU studied and practiced and served Santmat and RS mat for as long and as devotedly as Brian has??? I think not. It is YOU who are the hypocrite Harinder.

"Yes Brian you (not I) are now saying you lied during all those satsangs you gave - that everything you preached was hokum."
"Are you not a fake, and a flake?"

-- NO. That is NOT what Brian has said. You are grossly distorting Brian, and so you are nothing more than an impudent liar.

"True prayer [...] was to go into your own home, shut the door, and privately [...]That is also where the true Sant Mat is to be found - in true meditation."

-- Then simply go and do your meditation. Why are you judging and arguing with and demeaning other sadhakas here?

"But to this fake Brian - 35 years of meditation gave no benefits. I wonder if he meditated, and what in fact was he meditating on."

-- Actually, Brian's meditation is absolutely none of your business.

"you are the loser Brian, and the pathetic few who listen to your 'turn-coat' betrayal of a path"

-- There was/is no such "betrayal". We are all free to pursue any spiritual direction or orientation that we choose.

"In truth, you are more to be pitied"

-- But you are a disgustingly self-righteous and condescending fundamentalist jackass, so who are you to pity anyone?

"I have said my piece and am satisfied I have done the right thing."

-- Which only further proves my previous comment above.

"But you will find out the hard way, when you will be reborn as the chicken or lamb you kill to eat today, and are cut to pieces to fill someone else's belly. You will find this out, the hard way."

-- From this comment, I can see that you are somewhat mentally disturbed. Do you even know who it is that you are spewing your ridiculous judgements at?

The basic problem here Harinder, is your over-all condescending and negative attitude. If you would see others here as being what they really are - seekers of truth in their own right - and actually join in the discussion instead of mindlessly lashing out and attacking ex-satsangis, then perhaps you would see that there is much more good and light and insight here than what you may think so far.

Santmat is simply NOT the one and ONLY way. So if you can accept and respect that, then why do you still feel a need to challenge and attack and demean those who don't believe in Santmat in the same way that you do?

It is YOU who is not being tolerant. No one here is telling you that your belief in Santmat is wrong, so why are you telling others that their understanding and practice of Santmat is wrong and "fake"? If you would simply respect that others have their own spiritual orientations, then there would be no need to attack them as you do.

In any case, I do hope you will stay around and participate, but please dispense with your condescending attitude and preaching of dogma and bogus personal criticisms.

Harinder,

I have something to tell you that you need to be aware of:

It is this very dogmatic and fundamentalistic attitude and behavior of people like you that has been one significant factor in causing many former satsangis to "leave the fold". Many people do not at all like authoritarian dogma pushed on them, or being told that they are wrong and going to hell if they don't blindly submit to a spiritual cult guru.

You do NOT help the cause or the reputation of Santmat and the RSSB by presumptiously judging and criticising others who have their own personal experiences and practice and relationships with RS.

In this way, you do more to make RS look bad, than any number of critics or bloggers or ex-satsangis.

If you want to know who is making a bad image for Santmat and RS, then go look in the mirror.

I am telling you this not to put you down, but rather to get you to see that the best way to give respect and support and a good reputation to Santmat and the RSSB, is to act with tolerance and respect towards others (even if they do not agree with you or believe in Santmat). Your business is simply to follow whatever spiritual path or persuasion that you like and choose. If other people wish to criticise RS, then that is their business, not yours. You have no business telling anyone that they cannot criticise. All philosophies are open to criticism. And eveyone is entitled to their opinions. But you are here personally criticising the critics. If you don't like or cannot handle to hear cricism of Santmat/RS, then simply go somehwere else. No one made you come here. This site is an open discussion. You have no business telling people that they don't understand Santmat or that they cannot criticise Santmat or any other spiritual philosophy. People have a RIGHT to criticise any spiritual belief, path, or philosophy. But no one has any right to criticise other people personally, simply because they believe in something. I don't care that you believe in Santmat. You are free to believe as you wish. I reject only your criticism and intolerance of people simply because they don't agree with you and your rigid beliefs.

About Harinder:

I have a few more observations, and some responses.

Hareinder said: "why the present Master's style seems tougher."

-- I disagree. Charan Singh was not less tough at all, and he would never have put up with the kind of shenanigans that I have observed are typical behavior of many of Gurinder's more recent disciples. Charan also did not try to re-package/re-invent Santmat so as to have more appeal to westerners. Charan was tolerant but strict where it counted, and he did not deviate from tradition. Gurinder is not strict and not tough at all... other than trying to control and curtail free speech. He is simply running the RSSB business ($$$) in a much more agressive manner, and acquiring property and expensive luxuries.

"Too many people 'skate on the surface' of Sant Mat. They selectively hear what they want to, and ignore what they do not want."

-- You concern yourself far too much with other people. That is not the way of Santmat. You have no position or authority or right to be judging the sadhana of others.

"Tucson did not understand that the initiate also takes vows that he/she must honor."

-- Wrong. I am 100 percent sure that Tucson understands this perfectly, and even much more about facets of Santmat that you have no idea about at all.

"to continue 'eating chickens' and having sex with multiple partners, and so on, that initiate is still in love with carnality."

-- That is not necessarily true. It depends on other factors.

"How can the carnal be allowed to rise to the spiritual. Carnality must be overcome."

-- No, that is not necessarily the case.

"But after 20 years of initiation, should Tucson even haved asked such a question?"

-- He asked that question for another different reason that has so far eluded you... mainly due to your narrow-mindedness and mistaken presumption that Tucson somehow does not understand Santmat.

"The Living God cannot manifest until the temple has been cleared of carnality and carnal desire."

-- That is simply NOT true.

"That is the law and it is logical and just."

-- THIS here is the real "pedantic" stuff that George has been falsely attempting to tack on to me. In fact most of Harinder's comments are pedantic.

"with Master Charan Singh's seemingly 'kinder and gentler' style, they continued to 'skate on the surface'."

-- That is not true at all. That is a gross misrepresentation of the way Charan was. It is a distorted picture. I know first-hand much about how Charan was, and also about how his disciples were.

"So the present Master has toughened the message, so people understand Sant Mat is not a free ride - there is serious work involved."

-- Bullshit. I don't agree with this at all. Gurinder's so-called "message" is but a superficial deviation from tradition.

"Underneath is the same kindness of the former Master."

-- No, I don't agree. There is NO comparison between the two at all. None.

"all you need do is observe the present Master's own reverence to his predecessor"

-- That really proves nothing... and it is irrelevant anyway, whether it is true or not.

Harinder wrote: "Even Tucson who was a follower for nearly 20 years under the former Master asked (see above posts) whether the Master was not bound to honor his commitment to an initiate who ate chickens and slept with plenty of women. That suggests Tucson did not understand that the initiate also takes vows that he/she must honor. It is not just a matter of contractual obligation - wanting something without giving something. Harinder wrote: "There is a deeper principle involved. If an initiate wants to continue 'eating chickens' and having sex with multiple partners, and so on, that initiate is still in love with carnality. How can the carnal be allowed to rise to the spiritual. Carnality must be overcome. But after 20 years of initiation, should Tucson even haved asked such a question?"

--You missed the whole point that I was trying to demonstrate how absurd the whole 'four lifetime' dogma is.

I made vows within a conceptual framework which is no longer real for me. It is a ghost that went up in smoke. I owe nothing to a phantom.

It took me over 20 years to realize the folly of this idea of heaven being somewhere other than right here and now and the folly of effort to be this presence that already is.


Tao

"The fact that you seem to doubt me and to challange me on this matter, tells me that you somehow assume that you know more about RS than I do..."
--- I am simply requesting evidence or substantiation for your assertions, which is exactly what you were asking Harinder for. If such a banning on internet communication was widely published, surely there should be something on the web to validate this. I do not know one way or the other, but am looking for evidence of the truth.

"quit defending posters and trolls who post blatant fundamentalist rhetoric"
--- these ppl happen to believe in their views as much as you do about Dzogchen. it is therefore difficult for them to sit idly by when you refer to their god(s) or beliefs as fundamentalists, pigs and general f'ckwads. I realise this may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone agrees with your viewpoint. You can challenge ppl without resorting to personal vitriol. To be quite honest, as soon as that happens, its not an ego-war, it simply gets my hackles up.

"That dzogchen is simply Awareness. (there is not some other 'state' apart from awareness)"
--- Thats not how the wiki defines dzogchenm, it defines it as the natural state of every sentient being. I would like to know what this so-called natural state is? Human beings for example have many states, each having their own awareness, and many diffeent individuals have their own states. We are capable of dream-states, drug-induced states, hypnotic states, and a myriad of different conscious states depending on many factors - which no-one has managed to scientifically pin-down or prove - so the existence of some sort of 'natural' state is news to me.

"Someday you'll try to pull that shit-ass attitide on some dude like me, and he'll beat the living crap out of you. And punks like you, deserve it."
--- poor poor taste, resorting to violent threat, so indicative of character. i am not intimidated by you in the slightest. We know nothing of one another physical prowess, but i'd say there's a good chance that i'd absolutely break you and you'd be the one to deserve it. As I say, u need to go back to india for another 20 years and learn some tolerance instead of picking fights or threatenig ppl who disagree with you. Its your aggressive attititude which is in fact lowering the tone of this forum, and getting ppl who are prepared to stand up to your bluster involved (whom you conveniently label as trolls).

"And you obviously don't know what fascism means. Fascism is when the State merges with the Corporate, and vice versa."
Facism is a noun to describe someone (be it an individual or country) that wished to impose their autocratic or dictatorial control or beliefs on others. Moreover, fascist regimes or individuals are by their nature intolerant and often violent in trying to suppress and control the views of others.

My definition of you as a fascist is spot on and you have proved it repeatedly.


You can wrap yourself in a shroud of pseudo-knowledge and spirituality and peace to all, but it masks very thinly a fascist thug that comes out all too easily. Fascists are bullies. Often all thats needed is someone to stand up to them.


Thanks for clarifying, Tucson.

This is the second time you have referred to this philosophy as 'dogma'. This suggests to me that either you never accepted it truly, nor understood it at the level it needs to be.

No need to reply - I know you disagree. It is clear that like tA0, you probably also disagree that the physical body is a carnal or animal entity; and therefore for you the body is a source of 'heaven' here and now.

To me and others it is equally a trap into webs of craving and suffering. But that's what makes the world go around - diversity. Good luck to you and all the best.

For you (I extrapolate - perhaps incorrectly) that heaven here and now means the freedom to have sex with multiple partners and eat the flesh of chickens and other slaughtered animals, drink beer and alcohol, and so on.

I now understand your concept of 'heaven'. It is your 'God-given' right to live your life as you see it, and enjoy the pleasures you see fit to.

As George Orwell once said: "You pays your money and you takes your choice".

The Unseen Force I have referred to has certainly created extremely powerful blandishments and pleasures for those It prefers to keep in the physical kingdom.

Best wishes.

Harinder.

"It is clear that like tA0, you probably also disagree that the physical body is a carnal or animal entity"

-- I do not say that. However, I also do not regard and define the human body in the same conceptual duality, and in the same religiously oriented negative fashion that you seem to regard the body.

Harinder said (to tucson): "you have referred to this philosophy as 'dogma'. This suggests to me that either you never accepted it truly, nor understood it at the level it needs to be."

-- That is merely your own false presumption of an intellectual superiority, leading to judgemental bias, and in the end is merely only your own personal opinion... not inviolable truth.

Harinder,

You said: "This is the second time you have referred to this philosophy as 'dogma'. This suggests to me that either you never accepted it truly, nor understood it at the level it needs to be."

--I don't think you understand the term "dogma". Dogma is a system of beliefs, a tenet, or point of view that is put forward as authoritative without adequate proof. Have RS teachings been proven to you? You may believe, but that is different that knowing. It is true that Sant Mat claims that its cosmology and tenets can be proven in the "laboratory" of meditation, but until this is seen by the follower it must be taken on faith alone. It is a belief in dogma...unproven authoritative beliefs.

Sant Mat is a process of "becoming" rather than just "being". In just being, becoming is automatic. In trying to become, we can never just be.

While some satsangis may theoretically "die while living", the vast majority must wait until death to find out if the master is able to take them to God. Why do they bet everything on this unproven chance? Devoting a lifetime to scrupulous, compulsive avoidance of fractions of eggs or rennet for a "pie in the sky" promise? Thousands upon thousands of hours of meditation trying to break through a barrier that may not exist? Blind obedience to a "master" who may be in the same boat as they? Living in guilt if a vow is broken or "impure" desires are entertained? Denial of what life brings because it is too "worldly"?

Sant Mat denies this life and this moment, and peace is always around the next corner, a light at the end of a tunnel, but never present. In Sant Mat you are never really home until you are out of this body or dead.

You said: "No need to reply - I know you disagree. It is clear that like tA0, you probably also disagree that the physical body is a carnal or animal entity; and therefore for you the body is a source of 'heaven' here and now."

--I see the body as what it is..a body. I don't distinguish between carnal and spiritual. Life just is as it is. I no longer even know what 'spiritual' means. Sure, I know what it means to many. It refers to religion, non-physical perceptions having to do with God or higher planes or angels or psychic phenomena, all concepts and practices relating to divinity or achieving it, enlightenment, afterlife, etc.

I no longer have such concepts about this immediate presence. It just is. Nothing holy about it, yet it is 'ultimate foundation', 'reality' or whatever you want to call something indescribable. But since it is already present, I have no need to pursue it. How do I go to where I already am? This is not some grandiose claim. You can say this too. Nothing special about me, but IT is very special and at the same time nothing special at all...as ordinary and extraordinary as right now.

You said: "To me and others it is equally a trap into webs of craving and suffering. But that's what makes the world go around - diversity. Good luck to you and all the best."

--As you relax into acceptance of what is, cravings and suffering diminish. Why deny our humanity and this life? It is here to live consciously and fully, not to resist as some sort of sin. You are here right now, but you miss the grandeur of this moment because of your dream of something greater beyond...a pie in the sky. That's for the Puritans... all these concepts of hell, sin, heaven and karmic retribution. That one must be pure to see God. Well, the good news is awareness is always pure and you have this awareness now. It will always be 'yours' wherever and whatever the circumstances may be. Even whatever 'state' of mind you may be in. (That's for you, George.)

You said: "For you (I extrapolate - perhaps incorrectly) that heaven here and now means the freedom to have sex with multiple partners and eat the flesh of chickens and other slaughtered animals, drink beer and alcohol, and so on."

--Heaven to me is those things AND the absence of them. You are hung up on what you perceive as the evils of sex and chicken flesh. Sex is just sex and chicken flesh is just chicken flesh. Beer is just beer. Don't you see? They are not barriers to anything. The only barrier is the concept about them you build in your mind. Allow yourself to accept and live life as it comes. If sex is happening, enjoy it. If not, that's fine too. If you don't want to eat chickens, don't. No big deal.

You said: "I now understand your concept of 'heaven'. It is your 'God-given' right to live your life as you see it, and enjoy the pleasures you see fit to."

--I live life as it presents itself. I live in freedom without conceptions of how it should or shouldn't be. If it is pleasurable, so be it. If not, so be it.

You said: "As George Orwell once said: "You pays your money and you takes your choice"."

--I have found that choice is only an appearance. 'I' am lived rather than the other way around. I do not live, living is 'I'.

You said: "The Unseen Force I have referred to has certainly created extremely powerful blandishments and pleasures for those It prefers to keep in the physical kingdom."

--That's up to IT. Let IT be. So be IT.

Hope this helps. Best wishes.

There is another reason why people are involved in Sant Mat, even though they find contradictions in the teachings.

It's a great hobby. It's escapism - just like a movie that takes you away. Every movie has its plot holes and asks you to 'suspend belief' for a little while - but they're still fun. Some people just get an escapist 'hit' from Sant Mat, just as some people get a kick out of organised religion despite it being full of contradictions.


Tucson,

I must say that your last post of comments is one of the most right-on, clear and simple and down-to-earth, and wisest comments ever posted on this blog.

In fact, you have articulated my own personal views and sentiments probabaly even better than I could.

I like and I agree with your comments so much, that I would like to add extra emphasis by repeating (quoting) those that I am in most perfect agreement with here (which will also clarify to any other readers, what my own views are as well):


Tucson wrote:

>>> "Sant Mat claims that its cosmology and tenets can be proven in the "laboratory" of meditation, but until this is seen by the follower it must be taken on faith alone. It is a belief in dogma...unproven authoritative beliefs."

>>> "Why [...] bet everything on this unproven chance? Devoting a lifetime to scrupulous, compulsive avoidance of fractions of eggs or rennet for a "pie in the sky" promise? Thousands upon thousands of hours of meditation trying to break through a barrier that may not exist? Blind obedience to a "master" who may be in the same boat as they? Living in guilt if a vow is broken or "impure" desires are entertained? Denial of what life brings because it is too "worldly"?"

>>> "Sant Mat denies this life and this moment, and peace is always around the next corner, a light at the end of a tunnel, but never present. In Sant Mat you are never really home until you are out of this body or dead."

>>> "I see the body as what it is..a body. I don't distinguish between carnal and spiritual. Life just is as it is.

>>> "I no longer even know what 'spiritual' means. Sure, I know what it means to many. It refers to religion, non-physical perceptions [...] concepts and practices relating to divinity or achieving it, enlightenment, afterlife, etc."

>>> "I no longer have such concepts about this immediate presence. It just is. Nothing holy about it, yet it is 'ultimate foundation', 'reality' or whatever you want to call something indescribable. But since it is already present, I have no need to pursue it."

>>> "How do I go to where I already am? This is not some grandiose claim. You can say this too. Nothing special about me, but IT is very special and at the same time nothing special at all...as ordinary and extraordinary as right now."

>>> "As you relax into acceptance of what is, cravings and suffering diminish."

>>> "Why deny our humanity and this life? It is here to live consciously and fully, not to resist as some sort of sin."

>>> "You are here right now, but you miss the grandeur of this moment because of your dream of something greater beyond...a pie in the sky."

>>> "... all these concepts of hell, sin, heaven and karmic retribution. That one must be pure to see God. Well, the good news is awareness is always pure and you have this awareness now."

>>> "It will always be 'yours' wherever and whatever the circumstances may be. Even whatever 'state' of mind you may be in."

>>> "You are hung up on what you perceive as the evils of sex and chicken flesh. Sex is just sex and chicken flesh is just chicken flesh. Beer is just beer. Don't you see? They are not barriers to anything."

>>> "The only barrier is the concept about them you build in your mind."

>>> "Allow yourself to accept and live life as it comes. If sex is happening, enjoy it. If not, that's fine too. If you don't want to eat chickens, don't. No big deal."

>>> "I live life as it presents itself. I live in freedom without conceptions of how it should or shouldn't be. If it is pleasurable, so be it. If not, so be it."

>>> "I have found that choice is only an appearance. 'I' am lived rather than the other way around. I do not live, living is 'I'."

>>> "Let IT be. So be IT."


So again, and to prevent any confusion, all of the above quoted comments do in fact speak and reflect (as well as clarify) my own personal views, insights, and conclusions.

Ditto to tAo's praise, tucson. I enjoyed your comment also. One of your better ones. Some day you should write a definitive exposition of your philosophy. I'll make it into a blog post.

Tucson:

I have already mentioned a couple of times that everyone is following a different destiny and can believe or accept what they want.

Rather than rehash the things I have said over and over, let me address one of your counter-arguments, which I am copying here:

"As you relax into acceptance of what is, cravings and suffering diminish. Why deny our humanity and this life? It is here to live consciously and fully, not to resist as some sort of sin. You are here right now, but you miss the grandeur of this moment because of your dream of something greater beyond...a pie in the sky. "

Sant Mat IS the acceptance of here and now. That is what you perhaps never understood. Meditation is not trying to find 'pie-in-the-sky', but trying to find the highest essence of oneself. It is the attempt to discover who we truly are, instead of merely living according to the instincts of the body and the urges of the mind. There is no blind obedience to a Master, but the acceptance of a guide.

You refer to the 'unproven chance' that a higher reality may exist, that 'retribution' or consequences that may ensue from living in the now. But you are also taking a big chance - that those consequences and retributions may truly exist. In fact you are taking the bigger chance. There is one thing you do know for certain. That the life that you have and wish to enjoy free of 'guilt' will end. You seem to assume that will be the end of it. But what if there are consequences? What if the chickens and lambs you eat today do get justice? What if it turns out there is retribution?

(Do you remember the movie 'Silence of the Lambs? Even the psychopathic killer Hannibal was able to relate to Clarice Starling's nightmares at the screaming of the lambs being slaughtered, though it did not prevent him from slaughtering those he wanted to.)

I am forced to repeat what I said to Brian. Did you choose to be born where you were? It was not your choice to be born as human. You or I could have been born as animal, bird, insect or bacteria. Even if it is a random 'Nature' or 'Science' or 'Evolution' that is making these decisions - the abundance of evidence of terrifying life in the fish, animal and insect worlds should give you cause to reflect.

If that idea is too remote and unlikely to you, consider the plight of human beings. You were lucky to be born in America, a rich country. But billions of humans are born in terrible conditions and live terrible lives. You are assuming this could not have happened to you, or will never happen to you.

But even in America one can be destroyed by a bomb or be mugged or murdered. Or be trapped into an unaffordable mortgage by predatory slime motivated by greed, who have now engineered the present economic crisis. How may hundreds of thousands of Americans have lost their jobs? The once-mighty American auto industry is now in danger of vanishing. The dollar may lose its status as the world's reserve currency. America the so-called hyper-power may be bankrupt.

Have you reflected on whether these things are simply random and chaotic, or perhaps that there is order and principle behind it all, difficult though it may be to discern that order and principle?

Our body carries millions if not billions of bacteria. The smell of our armpits, groin and excrement should warn you of its carnality, as should nails, teeth and hair and the potential of violence (anger) of its animality.

You can of course ignore (as you seem to be) these warnings. You can decide to see only the bright side.

There is no question that religion has been misused by human beings. The book 'The God Delusion' tries to prove God is a myth, but its principal proof is the corruptions of religion. The Puritans you refer to did not have a Master/guide to instruct them and relied on the Bible which has been the most misused scripture in history.

The Puritans were able to justify the armed conquest of North America – armed robbery in essence – and kill tens of millions of native Americans, and still consider themselves 'Christian'. They relied on the 'chosen people' sections of the Old Testament to justify their theft of the continent and murder of its inhabitants by calling the USA the 'Promised Land' or Zion. In more recent times, that 'Promised Land' has shifted to Palestine, to justify America's armed support for 'Israel', also taken by force and kept by force. I am not interested in starting a debate on politics here, merely illustrating how religion can be misused by blind reliance on scripture.

Sant Mat is the opposite of 'blind' reliance on anything. All the principles and practices of it are very deeply thought out and rational. But there is a discipline involved for reasons already mentioned in my posts – the attempt to discover the higher/spiritual dimension within our animal/carnal body. You found no evidence and concluded that the higher/spiritual dimension was a myth.

But did you consider the possibility that perhaps (and forgive me for saying so) you were lazy in understanding the philosophy and wanted quick answers. I know you will respond that 20 years was a long-time, but in the context of eternity (which you seem to deny by concentrating on the ephemeral 'here and now' – a point to which I will return below) it is but a moment.

Let me give a more concrete example. Let's say you wanted to learn karate, or tennis, or engineering or whatever..... would you not have to submit to the instruction of a 'teacher', someone who has mastered the art in question?

Could you simply learn anything you want by yourself – (that by the way is the ego insisting on having its own way)? Take karate for instance. From your earlier messages (why shouldn't heaven be as easy as the 'back of my hand',) it would seem you would like to become a blackbelt without going through the arduous training, work, sweat and labor, even pain, involved in becoming a blackbelt, or even an exponent. You want the benefits without the effort, the objective without the journey.

Now you may argue you don't want to learn karate at all – that's fine, but don't lambast the martial art as being the problem; just admit you either don't want it or don't want the struggle involved. Or take tennis or another sport like basketball or hockey. It would appear you would like to be a Federer or a Jordan or a Gretsky without putting in the training and effort required.

In fact even the training and discipline does not explain the superstar success of these unique athletes. Thousands of athletes compete and train arduously but why do only a few achieve the 'summit' like success of these stars? Did you reflect on that? Was it not perhaps 'karma' from previous lives? But even these superstars will decline, and one day die and be forgotten. This is what Eclessiastes means when it referes to the ultimate 'sorrow of life' in the vastness of eternity. All creatures are mortal, and ultimately all life meaningless.

Only the 'hidden' Truth behind it, that never dies or changes, is real. That reality is your soul, a particle of the Ocean of that Truth. But perhaps you don't believe anything like a soul even exists...

Take other examples. You want heaven easy as the back of a hand. Let's take less lofty goals. You want billions of dollars without the effort, the risk.... is that reasonable? You want sex without the hassle of hitting on women....and the hurt of being rejected or dumped. Is that reasonable?

You will say you never implied this – you have a 'take life as it comes' attitude. As you said if sex comes take it if not don't worry about it.

But when you originally signed up for Sant Mat, you were not given any false illusions. Even the so-called '4-lifetime guarantee' was given on conditions – that the discipline implicit in the vows you took (abstinence from meat, alcohol, immoral conduct, and meditation) – would be adhered to. You accepted that agreement, being informed that discipline would have to adhered to for upto 4 lifetimes. But you found the going hard and gave up after 20 years (or in Brian's case 35 years). Now you blame Sant Mat as an empty and unreal philosophy. But in truth it was your expectations that were unreal and your commitment that faltered. You found the price too high. You wanted to have 'chicks' (sex) and chickens – your heart was not in the right place as far as the demands of that way of life required. The fault is not with Sant Mat – it is within you.

You were told what the path entailed when you signed up, but you 'dropped out' after 20 years. That is your decision. But that does not mean the path is illusory. What it means is you are more interested in the ephemeral (and therefore illusory – when compared to the vastness of eternity) pleasures of this life than attempting to discover whether a higher existence exists. You are saying Mount Everest is too hard to climb, and for you, not worth the effort. In the mountain's case we know it exists. In the spiritual case, you are saying prove to me that it does exist.

In the process, as said above, you are taking perhaps the bigger chance. You are betting on what you can see and feel, and choosing to ignore the possibility that something higher exists because the effort and discipline involved is too much. But you are also taking a risk. What if that higher existence does exist? What if your preference for 'chicks' and chickens leads to thousands of rebirths in lower animal or even insect bodies?

If that seems too absurd (tA0 questions my mental health in an earlier post) consider this: What if you are stricken by cancer or some such debilitating illness in this life? What if you are stung by betrayal and heartbreak by friends and family? What if you are reduced to grinding poverty and disability?

Surely you can see from life around you that such things do happen? Or do you imagine that such stuff could never happen to you?

I quoted an age-old axiom “the unexamined life is not worth living”. What you are saying is you prefer the unexamined life, as the examination is too tough. That is your choice. But do not assume it comes with no consequences or side-effects. You too are taking a risk, and as far I am concerned, the vastly bigger risk.

Master Charan Singh in fact used to refer to this type of attitude by people, in most of his discourses. You should know if you were listening. 'Ai jagg mittha, agla kinn dittha”. Which means: “I love this world, who has seen the next?” He called it the attitude of those who are 'asleep', unaware of the unseen world, and of the principles underlying this world.

You either never truly accepted or believed or understood what he said. Or if you did, you now reject it. That is fine. You choose the waking sleep of what Jesus called the 'dead', which has been misunderstood by Christianity. In one incident when one of his followers asked for leave to bury a relative, Jesus said 'let the dead bury the dead; you come with me and be saved”. Or something to that effect. The title of the movie “Eyes Wide Shut' alludes to the same thing – living without true knowledge of what one is, and where one is.

There is a deep philosophy in Sant Mat that you apparently never accepted or understood – sorry I am forced to repeat myself. Our strivings, whether for 'chicks' or chickens or other things, are no different in essence from that of animals. Whether fish or fowl, animal or mammal, bird or bee, all creatures have physical cravings and lusts, greeds, etc. The human animal is the one creature who also has the unique capability of attempting to rise above those cravings and instincts, instead of being simply driven by them, as non-human creatures are. This is therefore a unique opportunity to transcend materiality. But you are too much in love with matter (including chicks and chickens) to either understand this or accept the discipline of abstinence for upto 4 lifetimes as a small price to achieve eternal freedom from matter. You think matter is all there is.

If this sounds too esoteric to you, have a look at “I Love you Man” the Hollywood comedy now playing. Consider the superficiality and selfishness and carnality of the relationships shown in it – where a woman discussing her engagement is told by her female friends she made a great choice because her fiance 'goes down on her' 6 times a week. This is not a high existence. It is something I would like to be freed of. But I guess not you.

As for Brian, his congratulatory comment to your post only confirms (at least to me) that his 35 years of lecturing were empty – that he merely parroted a philosophy he never truly embraced or meditated on. A parrot repeats words it has heard, but never knows what it is talking about.

Sant Mat is not just about the spiritual meditation. That attitude of reflection is meant to permeate one's entire life – it is meant to foster a study of the true nature of relationships, the selfishness, cruelty and 'dog-eat-dog' nature of this world, and thus 'disengage' or 'disattach' from it.

But that stuff means nothing to you guys, I guess.

I still wish all of you the very best.

Harinder.

Harinder, you are astoundingly single-minded in ignoring what other people say, and parroting your own beliefs. You're not really conversing here. You're preaching. That probably is why you're getting frustrated with not being heard. You're not listening.

Regarding your repetition of the claim that I didn't believe in Sant Mat during the 35 years I practiced it, wrote books about it, and spoke about it, previously I told you that this was ridiculous, a lie, because I truly did accept the Sant Mat precepts. Why do you keep repeating the same untruth? Haven't you heard that "sat" (truth) is the essence of Sant Mat? When you choose lies over truth, you disown the Sant Mat that you adore so much.

Also, I happen to be a black belt in karate, so your comments about martial art disciplines caught my eye (most of the rest of what you said, you'd already said, and I skipped over it).

What I've found, after 18 years of so of martial arts training, is that reliance on a teacher, or sensei, steadily diminishes as you progress. If this isn't happening, you aren't learning a martial art. Similarly, by your reasoning, a disciple of a guru should become less and less dependent on his or her "master."

This is exactly what has occurred with many of those who visit the Church of the Churchless, including me. We have learned enough to feel confident in continuing our spiritual/mystical practice on our own, or mostly on our own (we all lean on other people, this being an interdependent world).

Bruce Lee, one of the greatest martial artists of all time, didn't believe in the word "master." See:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2007/11/time-to-fire-ou.html

Bruce Lee was a Taoist, a freethinker, not a fundamentalist who followed a rigid path. See:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/09/kung_fu_meditat.html

Bruce Lee advocated "formless form," not repetitive patterns, such as religions and strict meditation techniques call for. See:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/hinessight/2004/12/congratulations.html

So this shows that the martial arts metaphor doesn't really prove you point. It actually shows the opposite: that if we're not steadily becoming more independent of a teacher, we aren't learning anything.

[The links above aren't auto-linking for some reason, so you can't click on them and go to the post. To find them, you can enter "Bruce Lee" into the search box in the right column of this blog, and Google will find the posts on my blogs where I've mentioned Bruce Lee.]

Harinder,

"Meditation is not trying to find 'pie-in-the-sky', but trying to find the highest essence of oneself. It is the attempt to discover who we truly are, instead of merely living according to the instincts of the body and the urges of the mind."

---So meditation is a series of, "trying to find" and "attempting to discover" processes?
---Harinder, with your meditations, have you any finds or discoveries?

Thanks for a reply,
Roger

I agree with Brian when he says: "Harinder, you are astoundingly single-minded in ignoring what other people say, and parroting your own beliefs. You're not really conversing here. You're preaching. That probably is why you're getting frustrated with not being heard. You're not listening."

Yes, and I feel frustrated in not being heard as well. Not that I expect or require complete agreement or comprehension of what I have said, but I feel there is such an astonishingly vast chasm in our perceptions that much further conversation is useless. All I can do is rub my forehead and say, "Good Grief!"

You have so many misunderstandings and erroneous assumptions about Sant Mat and my experience with it and what I have tried to express about life that I don't even know where to begin in response. I feel that if I were to take the time to elucidate, it wouldn't help and would be a waste of time.

I suggest you immerse yourself in Sant Mat, see what happens, and forget this forum. It's a waste of time for a satsangi. You have a lot of simran and bhajan to do. Get crackin'.

Could someone direct me to a post I read some time ago but cannot find: it related to a former satsangi who was at the dera, was even on 'guard' duty for Gurinder outside his home, and said something to the effect of 'I never really meditated the required amount, once I meditated for 2 hours, but the rest was just haphazard' - am I imagining things or was there such a post?

Yoyo, I don't recall such a post, or a comment. You could scroll down to the Google search box (right column of this blog) and type in whatever words you want to look for. Just make sure the "HinesSight" button is still checked, so you're only searching my two blogs instead of the entire Internet.

Harinder,

The sheer overwhelming volume and length of your comments makes any response/discussion tedious and time-consuming. And no one here is interested in sorting through so much one-sided preachiness. You would be better to make your comments much shorter and to the point. Your continual closed-mindedness and lack of receptiveness to what others (like Brian and Tucson) have related, has become annoying and wearisome, not to mention frustrating to respond to.

Nevertheless, I will try to comment on a few things that stand out in your last (and very lengthy) post.

You said:

"Sant Mat IS the acceptance of here and now. That is what you perhaps never understood."

-- First, you really should (or must) refrain from this repeated insinuation that people "never understood". The people that you are debating with most (namely Brian, Tucson, and myself) ALL understand far more than you will ever know. It is both uninformed and rude to continue repeating: "That is what you perhaps never understood." YOU are the one who does not understand what others have been telling you about themselves. YOU are the one who does not undertand that Santmat is not the one and only way. And YOU are the one who refuses to quit preaching.

Apparently, you do not care that others have different viewpoints, experiences, and goals. It seems that your agenda is to preach as much as you can until Brian has no other option but to remove/ban you from this site. You are not being considerate or respectful to the rest of us. We are NOT interested in your obsession with Santmat dogma. This site is NOT some venue for you to preach Santmat. We all know the teachings. Like I told you, it is people like you who give Santmat and RS a bad name. And obviously you are not an RS initiate, because you are repeatedly violating the RSSB's internet prohibition.

So what are you? Who are you? What is YOUR point? Why are YOU here? Have you actually read anything that others have spent much time and effort to share and present to you?

And why don't you share something interesting about yourself, instead of your endless absurd attempts to ridicule and discredit Brian, ignore his patient admontions, as well as willfully misconstrue almost everything that Tucson and I have explained to you.

"Meditation is not trying to find 'pie-in-the-sky', but trying to find the highest essence of oneself. It is the attempt to discover who we truly are, instead of merely living according to the instincts of the body and the urges of the mind."

-- I don't totally agree, but why do you assume that Santmat is the ONLY way to overcome "the instincts of the body and the urges of the mind"? And why do you assume that the rest of us here need to do that? Why do you feel so drioven to preach to others, when you know nothing about other's sadhana or their spiritual attainments, etc?

"There is no blind obedience to a Master, but the acceptance of a guide."

-- That is not what is written in the RS literature.

"that 'retribution' or consequences that may ensue from living in the now."

-- Everything is always only in "the now", whether you accept and understand that, or not.

"But you are also taking a big chance - that those consequences and retributions may truly exist."

-- It is clearly a mental illness to think, to believe that there are "consequences and retributions" for living in the present. You are trapped in a web of fear and repression based upon religious dogma.

"There is one thing you do know for certain. That the life that you have and wish to enjoy free of 'guilt' will end."

-- Life and death are two sides of the same coin. But this "guilt" is your own sickness. Don't try to impose it upon others. You have no right and no business imposing your twisted guilt-ridden morality upon others.

"what if there are consequences? What if the chickens and lambs you eat today do get justice? What if it turns out there is retribution?"

-- That is not your problem or concern. It is none of your business what other people do, or what if any consequences there are.

"It was not your choice to be born as human. You or I could have been born as animal, bird, insect or bacteria."

-- No. You do NOT know that. You can not know what is the case for others. You can only speak for yourself.

"You were lucky to be born in America, a rich country. But billions of humans are born in terrible conditions and live terrible lives. You are assuming this could not have happened to you, or will never happen to you."

-- However, YOU are assuming that there are, or that there will be, other "lives". Human and animal suffering is an unfortunate fact of life, and it requires much compassion, but fear is the mind killer. The fear that you have and that you promote, is founded in ignorance. Fear is the ultimate suffering. So how does someone like you, who obviously lives in fear and ignorance, propose to know and project someone else's fate or destiny? That is absurd.

"But even in America one can be destroyed by a bomb or be mugged or murdered."

-- You are trapped in fear, which arises from duality, which is due to ignorance.

"Our body carries millions if not billions of bacteria. The smell of our armpits, groin and excrement [...] its carnality, [...] its animality."

-- You are too pathetic Harinder. Your consciousness is on a very low mundane level. Your mentality is extremely life-negative and pessimistic. THAT, is what is sad. You fail to see the beauty of the pageant of life, in all its darkness and light, sadness and joy. You are stuck in duality.

"I am [...] merely illustrating how religion can be misused by blind reliance on scripture."

-- But then you are misusing Santmat by blind reliance upon its scriptures and savior-cultism.

"Sant Mat is the opposite of 'blind' reliance on anything."

-- Incorrect. Santmat relies heavily on the words and teachings of the so-called 'Sants', as well as great reliance on the authoritarian master/guru/savior figure.

" there is a discipline involved [...] the attempt to discover the higher/spiritual dimension within our animal/carnal body."


"You found no evidence and concluded that the higher/spiritual dimension was a myth."

-- I never said that I "found no evidence" or that the "higher/spiritual dimension" is a myth. But many of the ideas about that are indeed myths.

"you were lazy in understanding the philosophy and wanted quick answers."

-- "lazy in understanding the philosophy" you say??? That is clearly not the case for Brian, Tucson, or myself. So I don't know where or how you can arrive at such a nonsense assumption.

"in the context of eternity (which you seem to deny by concentrating on the ephemeral 'here and now'"

-- Eternity is not something that you can have any handle upon. It is meaningless for you to use that as an arguement. Life is lived in the "here and now". Eternity is merely a concept. But the "here and now" is not ephemeral. Only form is transitory. The instant "here and now" is timeless. But you can not and will not arrive at this understanding through parroting and adherence to dogma.

"You want the benefits without the effort, the objective without the journey."

-- No. Life is the journey.... and Reality is ever-present.

"Was it not perhaps 'karma' from previous lives?"

-- Karma means action. Karma is simply direct action.... here and now action. It is not anything to do with "previous lives". The "previous lives" thing is something altogether different, and it is merely an idea, a philosophical belief.

"All creatures are mortal, and ultimately all life meaningless."

-- No so. You should definitely go read and study the book 'Mans Search for Meaning' by Dr. Viktor Frankl.

"Only the 'hidden' Truth behind it, that never dies or changes, is real. That reality is your soul, a particle of the Ocean of that Truth."

-- That is merely only one philosophical viewpoint among many. You obviously are not very well versed in the varities and schools of eastern philosophy.

"when you originally signed up for Sant Mat, you were not given any false illusions. Even the so-called '4-lifetime guarantee' [...] the discipline implicit in the vows you took [...] You accepted that agreement, being informed that discipline would have to adhered to for upto 4 lifetimes."

-- That is an absurd "guarantee", even an absurd idea altogether. It can never be proven. Nothing beyond this life can be proven. It is blatantly fraudulent for Santmat/RS to make any such claim or promise. Yet people - seekers - are naive suckers and are still willing to suspend all reason and logic for such myths.

"But you found the going hard and gave up [...] Now you blame Sant Mat as an empty and unreal philosophy."

-- No, that is not so in my case. Santmat was a piece of cake to me. Santmat appeals to neophytes. And I don't see it as "empty and unreal" either. I simply no longer have any use for it. I simply grew or awakened beyond the dualism and theology of Santmat/RS.

"it was your expectations that were unreal and your commitment that faltered. [...] The fault is not with Sant Mat – it is within you."

-- I am aware that you are respnding to Tucson here, but fyi: You have no idea of the nature and the path and the fruit of my own sadhana. You have not a clue. So you have no knowledge and no right to make any such nonsense judgements.

"You are saying Mount Everest is too hard to climb, and for you, not worth the effort."

-- Well I have not climbed Everest... but I have climbed Kangchenjunga and Annapurna and Dhaulgiri. Have YOU?

"What if you are stung by betrayal and heartbreak by friends and family? What if you are reduced to grinding poverty and disability? Surely you can see from life around you that such things do happen? Or do you imagine that such stuff could never happen to you?"

-- Harinder, you have no idea what other people go through in their lives. So you have no right to judge them. And I myself have been through more in this life than you could ever possibly imagine in your insulated little world.

"What you are saying is you prefer the unexamined life, as the examination is too tough."

-- Tucson is not saying that at all. Not even remotely.

"As for Brian, his congratulatory comment to your post only confirms (at least to me) that his 35 years of lecturing were empty – that he merely parroted a philosophy he never truly embraced or meditated on. A parrot repeats words it has heard, but never knows what it is talking about."

-- THAT my friend, I must say.... is a description that fits YOU far more than Brian. YOU are the one parroting and preaching Santmat. And YOU are the one who knows not what he is talking about.

"I still wish all of you the very best."

-- Well I too wish you the best as well Harinder. And I also hope that you will expand your horizons and embrace the mystery.

Yoyo,

The poster that mentioned the things that you indicated was named "Sid" as I recall.

I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure thats who was talking about being outside Gurinder's home etc.

Thanks to tAo for tackling a series of incorrect, misconstrued assumptions, beliefs and misunderstandings presented by Harinder. I admire tAo's ability and willingness to do this. Harinder should appreciate it.

Harinder wrote: ""But you found the going hard and gave up [...] Now you blame Sant Mat as an empty and unreal philosophy."

"it was your expectations that were unreal and your commitment that faltered. [...] The fault is not with Sant Mat – it is within you."

--This is typical of your faulty assumptions and misunderstandings. I never 'gave up'. There was never any 'Oh, this is too hard, I quit'. Sant Mat just gradually sloughed off like an old skin. It was no longer applicable like training wheels on a bike. I now prefer the freedom of the infinite unrestricted by the fetters of dogma and conditioned, relative belief.

Harinder,

You stated,

"In the process, as said above, you are taking perhaps the bigger chance. You are betting on what you can see and feel, and choosing to ignore the possibility that something higher exists because the effort and discipline involved is too much. But you are also taking a risk. What if that higher existence does exist? What if your preference for 'chicks' and chickens leads to thousands of rebirths in lower animal or even insect bodies?"

--- Harinder, in your own words, could you describe what the "higher" existence is?
---Or, describe the "higher" existence, based on the spiritual training, you have received.

Thanks for a reply,
Roger

I did. I found something better. Say, if you will, that it is just replacing one thing with the other and I will be the first to joyfully agree: I found Jesus (who was there all the time if I'd cared to look). I do still hear the mantra when I try to sleep sometimes (I was in the cult over 33 years and only came to Jesus 6 years ago), but I find that using the gift that the Holy Spirit has provided in the form of the Holy Language has helped. It is, after all, merely a battle of good vs evil.

Try Jesus. I've had life with Him and without Him. With is sooooooooo much better!

Joy Fulheart
www.libertychurch.org

Dear Brothers & Sisters

Forgive me for my intrusion but I have been directed to this blog by others to address points raised here about the validity of a spiritual path and its purpose, especially concerning Sant Mat.

My brief background is that i have been an initiate of the present Master, Sant Sat Guru Gurinder Singh Ji of Beas in India since 1993. By His grace i have been blessed with greater knowledge than mere books or intellectual debates can provide and i would like to briefly share a little of this with you all simply for clarity, as many serious questions and concerns have been raised.

I am not a great writer so please forgive any errors you may find, but i will hopefully convey the correct meaning of what i have been given by the grace of the Master, so thank you for your patience!

Also, i am not here to preach to anyone, nor engage in intellectual debates about truth v non-truth as that is not the purpose of my visit here today.

The mystic path of the saints/gurus/masters/etc is as old as time and has been taught in one form or another since souls have been in existence in the manifested creation. It is a path of true science, using the laboratory of the human body to discover it.

All the true(highest) Saints try to explain the purpose of human birth, with its reasoning capabilities, as a two-road journey.

Firstly, it can be used to enjoy the world it finds itself in to the maximum level it can attain until its natural death, facing all the consequences along the way, now and in the hereafter, OR, secondly, human birth can be used to discover the ultimate reality of existence for oneself, and in time then join that reality in permanent bliss.

Everyone here has only those two options and yet there are those who belong to neither option (path) - they are the seekers of absolute truth(God)or the seekers of mere knowledge(science). I believe that many of those seekers of both truth and knowledge are commenting their views here, whether they are on a spiritual path or not! So I hope they may find some clarification in this simple but personal knowledge.

The ultimate truth of life and existence is far beyond the ken (ability) of the mind but i shall try to express it here in near accurate and perhaps revealing terms.

The concept of GOD:
If one is fortunate enough to see the reality first-hand, one can see that that reality is present within each living entity, whether in latent form or in active form. That reality is called the 'soul' in today’s terms. That soul is of the same reality in every living thing, whether human, plant or animal, etc. It is the essence of GOD (Creator/Power/Shabd/whatever you like to call it) and therefore all living things are in fact potentially God.

In the beginning, there was only Itself (God) without manifestation of Its glory, but then, by Its will it became manifest, i.e. it became the creation and all that inhabits it. A veil of illusion (maya) was created to separate the god-entities(souls) from their Source(God) in order to bring about the divine play (the stage and the players). The object of that play is worship of the Source, and the journey of the soul to obtain that worship and to unite itself with its Source to complete the process, is the natural expression of Divinity. That is the simplest way it can be explained at this stage of mind and intellect as it is more complex than that in reality, but nevertheless this is the essence of it!

In this process of creation duality became manifest, i.e. God and the souls. Each soul was given a script to follow that was embedded into its making (termed sanskaras)and sent into the manifested creation, with all its trials and tribulations, eventually reaching planet Earth and then eventually the physical form of a human being.

All levels of consciousness or regions that exist between the physical world and the Source(God) exist with degrees of greater awareness of the Truth/Source. Sant Mat terms these as regions or levels of consciousness and these are to be accessed only within the human body, for that is the Divine Law in this current form of creation.

Nothing else exists except for God in various forms, which makes up the entire creation! Indeed, it can be correctly argued that God is therefore as bad as It is good, as all aspects of reality have come from God. So God is not only love, God is evil too, but this good and bad are mere illusory expressions of Divinity that only exist in the illusory part of creation, such as here on Earth.

So now the scene is set for the Divine Play to run its course. Each soul has been given a role to play, whether that of a devil or a saint, and all roles in between. For those who are privileged to know this truth (of destiny), they are unaffected by the role they have been given, because they know it is only a play and that there is no reality in it.

However, for the vast majority of others, whose time for enlightenment has not yet come, they indulge whole-heartedly in the pleasures or miseries of this play as their egos(identities) are fully developed and as such they are convinced of its reality. To complement this, a universal law was created to run the whole show and Saints term this as karma, with its birth and death cycles of cause and consequence.

Now, from the God's point of view the souls who inhabit various bodies play their parts well, maybe that of a villain even, but they are still all God's manifestations, so God is not affected by who is loving whom or who is killing whom, and so on. Souls themselves are indestructible, but certainly bodies can die and minds become dormant(abandoned in higher stages).

God therefore enjoys the play where God plays all the parts and worships Itself through the manifested creation.

So in reality there is no rite and wrong as each one of us has no choice in the part they have been given to play, but there are indeed consequences that have to be met as a result of playing that part.

So life is NOT fair from a human point of view, but is a perfect play from the God's point of view. Even Guru Nanak admitted that "this is a very cruel play" when he was separated from that reality, but then when he merged with the Creator he said "it is only a play and there's no reality to it". So such is life in its simplicity.

However, all is not hopeless for those souls who are ready to go back to their source and escape this play and its traps. Eve though the soul is already God in essence, it doesn’t remember that at this stage. After countless existences in different life forms, etc the soul takes a human birth.

Saints come into this creation to 'save' the lost souls who are ready to go back home through the process of following a perfect living Master at the time the soul is alive. They follow His/Her instructions, and under the Master's guidance, they slowly, slowly go back to their Source.

Depending on their roles, they may take one to four lifetimes to go back to their Source, but some can take longer, depending on the strength of the attachment to their ego.

Significantly, for the initiates of a Perfect Saint, the Saint stands as ransom to the 'court of absolute justice' for the karmic stock of their initiated souls(disciples) at the time of disciples' death, whether the Saint appears to the disciple in Its Radiant form at the time of death or not! The latter benefit only happens to those souls who are attached to their Saint(Master) or are attached to the quest of the absolute Truth of the Path of Sant Mat and whose humility and devotion are well developed. It does not occur to those with highly developed egos of pride and of duality, even if they have a lifetime of meditation to their credit!

Nevertheless, the disciple who must return to this creation will usually be born in better circumstances for their spiritual progress than in their previous birth, though some who followed more carnal (animalistic) traits may have to spend some time in an appropriate lower species to endure the suffering they have caused whilst in human birth till they are rid of that trait and can rejoin humanity.

The attitude that one should have for those blessed with Naam from a perfect Saint is a natural one, i.e. not pretending to be something they are not, and humbling themselves before the Truth whilst following the instructions of their Master as best they can with passion in their hearts for the absolute Truth.

Then, even if hardly any meditation has been achieved or some of the vows not strictly adhered to, but the attitude was always one of guilt and self-improvement, then they may not have to return to the physical form at all - so attitude is most important, more than strict following of the vows i would say!

Just be your natural self, be honest to yourself and dont be too hard on yourself or others, but definitely do the best you can with a sincere heart and dont worry about the results. Rest assured that there are no failures in Sant Mat ultimately, there are only delays if a disciple strays for a while.

For those with a sincere, kind and humble heart their Master will certainly turn all their failures into successes so have no fear if no benefit is seen yet, as you may also have to convincingly play your worldly part in this world for a while before that treasure is handed to you!

Sant Mat, as it is written in the books, is only a fraction of the absolute Truth and to debate at length about the meaning of this or that phrase is a useless exercise for the true spiritual aspirant as the books are only there to create interest in the Path, and at best can offer an ABC account of the absolute Truth and at worst only provide confusion, to make one question the purpose of human life, whichever suits the seeker or disciple best!

Even the satsangs and the Saint's questions and answers offer much of the same as the Saints have to say something and are even sometimes playful, whereas sincere meditation offers complete knowledge in the end, for some sooner, for others later. But then also, even meditation itself is less important for those with a highly developed spiritual nature - so it depends on individual cases how much meditation is required to reach the goal! Love for, and absolute devotion to, the living Master is certainly the quickest way for those who have the courage or the means to do so.

Rite attitude, genuine humility and sincere devotion to the Truth are the mainstays for any potential spiritual aspirant, as well as obedience to their Master, if they have one, all else is but a preparation for this state of being. In fact, a living Master is absolutely necessary to gain access to the higher realms as this is the Divine Law, which will become apparent when one enters the third eye where all is revealed!

I hope this resolves a few matters that have been raised on this blog since it began and may you all achieve your higher goals. Never feel disheartened if you have so far failed, or if you are not yet ready to make that commitment to a spiritual way of life, as everything comes with time when the seeker or disciple is ready.

There is no harm at all in questioning the Path of the Saints or trying out various other methods first because at least you are looking for the Truth and that is more valuable than you can possibly imagine. If you are sincere in your quest you will eventually be led to that highest Truth.

Thank you once again Brothers and Sisters and God bless you all!

James Mann... I'm trying to understand you. But am having some difficulty.

Let's see:

(1) You say, "Also, i am not here to preach to anyone, nor engage in intellectual debates about truth v non-truth as that is not the purpose of my visit here today."

Then you leave a 2,090 word comment, which is about twice as long as a blog post that I consider LONG. Yet you believe you're not preaching, or engaging in intellectual debate. My blunt response:

Bullshit. You're preaching, and debating. Get real.

(2) You shared a bunch of thoughts about the theology or philosophy that you believe in. A Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, or whoever could have done the same. What makes you think your thoughts are more believable than any other religious person's thoughts?

(3) You sound very dogmatic and fundamentalist. It appears that you consider your chosen faith to be the only True One. What evidence do you have for this? As noted above, why should anyone believe you more than a Christian who says that Jesus has revealed Himself within his/her heart and mind, and he/she knows with certainty that the teachings of the BIble are true?

Bottom line for me: thoughts are different from reality. You seem to be viewing the two as identical. Meaning, what you believe in your human brain, or have experienced personally, you consider to be objectively true for everybody.

That's a giant assertion. It shouldn't be accepted by anyone without demonstrable evidence, just as the claim of any other religion shouldn't be. Reality is too precious, truth is too important, to be treated like thought candy -- something to be grabbed and swallowed capriciously.

I usually don't publish long preachy intellectual fundamentalist comments. But yours was such a good example of preachy intellectual fundamentalism, I made an exception. Please, never again.

Speak as much as possible in your own words, as your own self, if you want to engage in further comment conversations on this blog. Merely repeating dogma isn't very productive. A mechanical computer can do that.

Mr. Mann,

At the beginning of your novel, you mentioned,

"The mystic path of the saints/gurus/masters/etc is as old as time and has been taught in one form or another since souls have been in existence in the manifested creation. It is a path of true science, using the laboratory of the human body to discover it."

---This paragraph was the beginning of the babble.....yes, the dogma is as old as time, and a path of true science sounds kinda silly.

Hello Mr. Mann,
Thankyou for coming to this blog. Please
have all your friends come here too.

But, you may find after you become enlightened,
you still don't know
if there is an afterlife. The Guru
has not met God and doesn't know if
there is an afterlife either.

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

Hello Mr Mann,

You sound intelligent, please be broad minded my friend. How do we know RS is the path?

Also disregard the secret history link, its crass, sorry Mike aka Zakk, I've done my research and it turns there are some facts that are true, but the vast majority of it is not true.

If you want a different perspective on RS, look at Radha Soami by Mark Jurgenmeyer

Mr Heinz beans,

Never feel disheartened if you have so far failed, or if you are not yet ready to make that commitment to a spiritual way of life, as everything comes with time when the seeker or disciple is ready.

I think you better read these words carefully Brian, lol.

Mr Mann,

Very typical satsang from you. Everything that you have learned, nothing new to say. Kind of robotic even, brain washed, conditioned, programmed. Very scary.

What have YOU discovered from following these teachings? Do you really know that these Masters are such that we have been told? How do you KNOW that Gurinder is that highly evolved soul that you believe he is?

As a Charan initiate and having met so many people like you I understand that you are doing your best in every way to succeed on the path but unfortunately sometimes we wake up and realize that all we have bought into is a belief system and we have no proof whatsoever.

Hey Mann,

What you have presented is pure dogma..a classic example of such.

According to Merriam Webster dogma is "a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds."

tucson,

"According to Merriam Webster dogma is "a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds."

---this needs to be presented, regularly....

Mr. James Mann, you said,

Nevertheless, the disciple who must return to this creation will usually be born in better circumstances for their spiritual progress than in their previous birth, though some who followed more carnal (animalistic) traits may have to spend some time in an appropriate lower species to endure the suffering they have caused whilst in human birth till they are rid of that trait and can rejoin humanity.

....It was totally different during the regime of Hazur Maharaj CharanSingh. The disciple if born again will be born in better circumstances and never in a lower specie, irrespective of his karmas, as it is stated in The Master Answers( Q-447 and Q-448).

.... I wonder why the present Master Babaji Don Gurinder Singh Dhillon has completely changed the rules, is it because he is strict? or is he not as much powerful as Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh? Or is the change directly from the Lord.

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