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February 03, 2009

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Mike,

I have read your book and website. You post a lot of decent info about the inner sounds and lights, the God helmet etc.

But you said you take the kundalini energy up and down the spine. What does this mean in terms of physicality? I don't get it.

Also, would you say that waking slightly early in the morning and meditating has the most noted effect? It is a REM period, astral projectors use this period exclusively, and i have read that sounds occur due to oscilations in the inner ear bones. I suspect people take this to be the OM sound?

By the way, Charan Singh said that Radha Soami was nothing to do with religion.

"But you said you take the kundalini energy up and down the spine"
quote David

I do not believe kundalini exists.
(Which is the basis of the sound current)

Only glands, hormones, etc. The inner sounds
are actually caused by tinitus and other
factors, recently discovered by some
British scientists.

Everything is physical. Yoganada and other surat shabda groups run the kundalini up and down the spine before sitting for
the sound practice.

Yes, Charan said Radhasoami is not
a religion, but Salig Ram called it
a faith and he invented Radhasomi Faith.

I took the 52 week Yogananda course to
prep for initiation with SRF, but was
initiated by other gurus. I do not
consider SRF has any real gurus.

Om technique was also in courses of SRF.

As far as I understand it certain gurus at initiation can actually activate the movement of kundalini up and down the spine. The new disciple becomes aware of it unlike before. However, the experience disappears if the appropriate meditative methods are not used.

Again, as I understand it the aim of "exercising" the Kundalini up, and down is to help increase its power, and activity until the true, and "ultimate" superconcious experience is had. When I interviewed Swami Chidananda back in 1989 he said I was exactly right.

How does kundalini cause the sounds?

Again, i don't understand what you mean by running the kundalini up and down the spine.

This isn't very clear.

Hi David and Robert,


"Swami Chidananda" was incorrect. Read U. G. Krishnamuti whom had the full so called
kundalini experience. He denied it existed,
but that it was was totally physical in nature unlike what the Gurus have told us.

I am a forth degree surat shabda initiate,
which Radhasoami people don't even know about. I have been initiated by so many
kundalini masters I can't remember half their names. Practised black magic and
conversion to the hilt.

But, people won't believe me, so I refer
to U. G. Krishnamurti. It is all physical.
Experiences do happen when sexual energy
is suppressed to the max, using techniques Radhasoami is unfamaliar with, or their Gurus won't tell, at least the old ones.

That's why Radhasoami people rarely get
to first base and it is a religion.

Hi Robert,
It is actually the transformed Ojas enegry from chastity that is run up and down the spine creating the pathway for the so called kundalini to make its move.

But, when successful, one will only become
a self manufactured schizophhrenic like Kirpal Singh.

Radhasoami makes people nuts. They believe they see the Master inside (God), or are God, or have taversed the so called inner planes.

No inner planes exist and no God,
see Faquir Chand.

An experience like kundalini exists, but it has nothing to do with kundalini at all,
or God.

It is all delusional.

The only real experience is the realization of no self.

Enlightenment.

Radhasoami Gurus are NOT enlightened.

They simply tell you how to mess up your mind so you become delusional.

Salig Ram was delusional and he invented the Radhasoami Faith and believed he was God.

Radhasoami people rarely achieve anything.

They don't even have a remote clue how complex surat shabda yoga is.

The jnani is the highest according to Indian tradition.

Read The Serpent Power by Sir John Woodruffe.

There is only one enlightenement.

Radhasoami people will never find it.

They are too far gone and beyond help.

"Mike Williams"

Now, we can see where you are coming from more clearly than ever before!

I also remember back in 1977 that I found some data that raised doubts about how authentic Woodroffes book on the Serpent Power was...

A Question to "Mike Williams"....

Surely with all experience with Kundalini gurus, and their practices you must have had quite a number of inner experiences, or "illusions"?

Mike,

You practiced black magic - what for? And do you think that works?

About chastity and kundalini - how can chastity enable you to move currents up and down the spine? What nerves, tissues etc of the body are involved?

Hi David and Robert,

Yes, I have had so many types of
experiences as to be remarkable.

But, they are all produced in the
brain and are physical, I am convinced.

Having practiced so many yogas
one sees everything.

Experiences do not produce
enlightenment. So, if you
reach sach kand you are no
closer to the goal.

When I say black magic, I
mean tantric yoga. A method of
saving sexual energy, which is
the key.

Kundalini, so called by theory,
is supposed to move up the ida and
pingala and enliven the chakras.

These chakras then produce sound
and light accordingly.

All this is a waste of time,
even if successful.

The problem is there is no self
that can outlast the body.

Even the temporal self is a delusion.

Ok Mike, i think i am getting nowhere with you. I have asked you 3 times already what you mean by running kundalini up and down the spine and you have not given any real answer.

I am beginning to think you are only being honest by saying you are schizophrenic, since your practices made you that way, according to you.

Dear David
If kundalini does not exist,
it cannot be run up and down
the spine.

It is only theory that there
is kundalini which runs
up and down the spine.

What happens is sexually repressed
energy affects the brain. They
call this Ojas and similar shaktipat.

That's why tantric technique is needed.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for clearing that up. So you are saying that "kundalini" is an orgasm due to repression of ejaculation.

By Tantric technique i take it you mean sidhasana pose, blocking the perinuem etc etc

What about astral projection? There is a reason people wake before dawn to meditate - to enter REM consciously. I am sure this has a lot of hallucinogenic potential, especially for the OBE.

Also, are you saying that suppressing sex creates the tinnitus and the inner lights?

Thanks


By the way, you do know that Sikhs rise before dawn and meditate and that they don't repress sex? Presumably their meditations are uneffected by the REM "morning wood" LOL

Hi David,

Since I don't believe we leave the body,
nor project consciousness, I don't
believe in astral projection.

Everything is happenning in our heads.

80% of people tested in a sound proof
room reported in my book heard various inner sounds. Even rats hear them.

But, yes I believe suppressed sexual
energy very much causes hallucination.

That's why women do better than men
at kundalini yoga.

The Sikhs believe God comes to them
in meditation. Sort of a different
twist from Radhasoami people leaving
to travel the inner planes to God.

This is an enigma I can't quite figure.
Because they talk of the inner planes also.
Unless they realize they never leave the brain somehow ????

Try drinking strong coffee and going back
to sleep again. This will cause you to
be conscious in sleep.

Strange dreams may occur, but very
lucid.

David Quinn critic don't seem to make (sense??)

"As soon as UG dies, whatever wisdom he possesses will also die. All that will be left will be a sorry bunch of third-rate individuals fashioning a religious cult out of his name."

There is no organization, no religious cult that follows him as of I know. Even if it is there,it is ineffective and will not succeed in making a holy transaction.

Hi Barking Buddha,
(grin)

U. G. Krishnamurti was almost unknown until
some websites like mine popularized him.
Same with Faquir Chand. It is strange how
the cream rises to the top.
Same happenned to Nietzshe.

I find myself in a world most people
don't even know exists. A few tears ago
I spent most my tme blogging about
the comming real estate collaspe.
getting editors around the country
to warn people and start printing more
articles.

Even Bernanke rebuked us saying the U.S.
has never had a RE crash over the entire country.

No one belived us.

Now I am in the same situation.

Blogging about the coming U. S. Dollar
collaspe. But, this one is different.

The U. S. Dollar has already collasped.

ALREADY COLLASPED.

How could people not know ?

Well, the wealthy do. Commodity
prices have doubled. Silver and gold
also to the moon. From lead, to copper,to sugar,etc.

The rich are dumping fiat currencies.

The U.S. debt is now 100 Trillion dollars
with Social Security and Medicare.

Bernanke now admits the Federal Reserve
printed 20 trillion dollars during the stock crash to bail out other nations.

The USA must abolish the Federal Reserve
if it is to survive.

I found myself emailing my friend
this morning my stock test account
to exit all U. S. Dollars..

Here is my email to Charlie,


I have spent months investigating the budget crisis
and the U. S. Dollar. I am quite sure the dollar
will loose half its value or more in the next 5 years.
It may collaspe and the Euro behind it. The rich are
running to hard assets.

Below are baskets of hard currencies locally denominated
with good country debt. ELD pays 5.7%, distributes monthly
an amount 4%, or more, at 17 cents to 35 cents monthly.

CEW is embeded at 3.3% a year and asset value will double
over 10 year period.

EUO is the hedge offset for both limiting
a 10 year drawdown to 5%.

CEW and ELD compare to ICPHX, a mutual fund running
over 10 years, which doubled with div's included.
Overlay charts to see. ICPHX had max 12% drawdown over 10 years.
ELD and CEW will do better and are copycats of ICPHX, but with low fees as ETF's.

XSB.TSX is a canadian ETF I am trying to get
the US equivalent stock symbol for.
Holds 2.5 year maturity Canadian bonds at 2.5% a year, mthly div,
but this will rise. Denominated in Canadian dollar.

These are all large cap funds with good volume.

CEW 600 23.35 0.00 14,010.00 0.00
ELD 1600 53.39 +0.09 85,424.00 +144.00
EUO 700 16.65 -0.148 11,656.12 -103.88


Total Mkt Value: $111,090.12 Total Mkt Chg ($): +40.12

I understand, you may be knowledgeable person but there are people whom UG affected directly rather than through Internet. For what he has did to me, he does not need to be popular. I never read any blogs or articles to non-understand UG.

No Organization would spring out of UG's words. If it does, then you know what trouble one may fall into. No one can apply it either in life. One may bring those words to the surface once in a while to see how an Individual's behavior affects the totality. But if one wants to Organize UG's words in ones own Individual memory, then that's the tragedy of the Individual.
The memory will run out of charge soon ):

I see that you are running to save the living systems but they are not going to listen to all that. One thing I can do is to lead a simple life without complications that thought constructs. .i.e to think sanely. That's all I can do and this I can do vigorously. I can lead a luxurious life in that sense.

A varied and candid exchange of lines of views on UG there on this site. Thanks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13445951 UG . just thought of sharing the link

This man is the most evil person ever to incarnate on this planet masquerading as some wise sage..his is in fact an EXTREMELY MALEVOLENT reptoid alien intelligence that has infiltrated human consciousness at virtually every level and should be COMPLETELY extirpated if we as a species of HUMAN BEINGS are to thrive..his discarnate spirit doles around and possesses vulnerable souls and subsequently intimidates them deceives them feeds off them and is intent on their total destruction....the misguided fools think it's enlightenment
Unfortunately desperate people have fallen for his spiel instead of rigorusly following their own built-in inner guidance system and rejecting all teachers including him...every reference of him and his teaching should be utterley destroyed and deleted if we as a species are to survive.
PLEASE TAKE NOTE AND AVOID THIS MAN'S TEACHINGS LIKE THE PLAGUE AS IT WILL EVENTUALLY LEAD INTO A TRAP AND ULTIMATELY YOUR VIOLENT RUIN AND DEATH !!
I'M DEADLY SERIOUS HERE AND SPEAK FROM YEARS OF DIRECT EXPERIENCE!!!
THANK GOD I'M STILL ALIVE & WELL !!!!

well, years ago, i had some personal contact U.G.

he was really mellow and easygoing, and sane and sober headed... way more than you seem to be. and he certainly was not "evil".

you come across as rather crazy and fanatical. so you may be "still alive", but i don't think you are "well".

I hope this does not come accross as negative, but i sincerely think u are all cooked in the pip.

Never have i laughed so much as this thread.

Thank you kindly.

Mike,

You seem like a very knowledgeable guy on all this spirituality stuff, but there is no consistency. You need to clear up your thinking.

Firstly how can a diehard atheist be in desperate search of god?

Someone who truly doesn't believe in something, does not search for that thing. At best you sound like an agnostic, and one who is exceptionally prone to spiritual teachings. Nothing wrong with this, but its not an atheistic worldview.

As for kundalini and chakras, i cant see how this is anymore believable or verfiable than RS' seven planes or realms of existence. Moreover, I cant understand the difference between a 'jnani' and a 'guru'.

Just because someone says they are not a guru or have no teachings, does not mean they actually do not believe that. If they have no teachings, then why communicate at all?

imo half of these 'teachers' are con-men and the other half have simply been caught up in their own bollocks. Its all psycholigical, because its the human mind at work. The most powerful complex and misunderstood organism in existence. A psycholigical conjob with ppl claiming sincerity, truth, nirvanna, enlightement, non-mind, nothingness and a whole lot of other half-truths about an organ they cannot possible hope to understand.

No-one, no single person on this planet has the answers. Never have had and never will have. An atheists worldview can only be that there is no meaning to life other than what we our-selves each decide to make of it - for the extremely brief period our particular set of atoms are bound together before the law of entropy inevitably wins out.

Some things are within our control, other not. Some win the lottery, others board a 747 that goes down. Good people suffer, bad people prosper, and vice versa.

As for these jani's, gurus, mystics, sages and spiritual masters - seems to me one gets more wisdom and insight from forrest gump, homer simpson and kenny rogers.
Shit happens, life is a box of chocolates you never know what you going to get, treasure the good, weather the bad, and the best you can hope for is to die in your sleep.

" I cant understand the difference between
a 'jnani' and a 'guru'."


"how can a diehard atheist be in desperate
search of god?"

" sincerity, truth, nirvanna, enlightement,
non-mind, nothingness and a whole lot of
other half-truths "
quote George

There may be one jnani and 10,000 fakes
will parrot him. Unless you spend many years
of searching and research as I have, there
is no way to know who is jnani and WHO is
not.

The problem is, the jnani sees little need
for people to become enlightened. So,
it is extremely rare a jnani will teach.

The jnani is in direct contradiction to
the Guru. Like north and south poles.

The jnani instead will help humanity in
many different ways. If they teach, it
is only to dispel false beliefs that
are hurting people.

The jnani is the Gurus worst nightmare.

The jnani debunks everything that causes
friction in the world.

I agree "sincerity, truth, nirvanna, enlightement,
non-mind, nothingness and a whole lot of
other half-truths"(I will add duality,
oneness, holiness and humilty).

What the jnani perceives, false teachers
can only guess at and speculate on.

They write endless books of nonsense.

That I am an atheist desperately in search
of God is a joke. At least the search for God
part is.

My long search for God had me finding no God.

But, I did discover negative and positive
powers at work in the world.

But, only those involved with the negative
or positive powers, know of these powers.

A person can speculate they don't exist, or do
exist.

What they should be saying is,
"I don't know if they do or not.

but Mike, very simply, what is the difference between a jnani and a guru?

And perhaps more importantly, how does one verify a jnani is the real deal whatever that is?

There is no objectivity to any of this, no evidence at all to suggest one is more correct than another. This is fine, but again I then cannot understand by what means you are so quick to critique other gurus to be evil, fakes or deluded.

While i find a lot of this stuff interesting, most of you guys seem to bypass the obvious step of questioning why your particular jnani (or guru) is the real deal while others are not.

It seems there are two types of spiritualists: those ultra-tolerant peaceful souls that engage in a lot of postmodern relativism declaring every path or claim to be equally valid (the 'flakes'), and those who claim there's is the true path without providing a jot of evidence to support their beliefs over others (the 'enlightened').

Seems to me the world would be a nicer place generally with more flakes, even though they are totally divorced from reality. The enlightened talk a great game, but thats all it is, talk.

All i want to know is - in 3,000 years of jnani's, gurus and mystics - what have any of them ever said to make them worthy of such titles of master or teacher. What unique knowledge or insights of our reality do these men possess?

Einstein put it simply E=MC2 and then proved it, what did UG Krishnamurti teach?

Hi George,
We have been discussing Dr. Susan Blackmore
and friends.

Science has proven there is no self and that consciousness is not continuous.
(Consciousness is an effect, not a cause)

Science has proven the jnani correct
and the Guru wrong.

Until you realize that there is no self,
for yourself, it will be difficult
for you to understand.

Well Georgie peorgie, you do so make me laugh at times!


I liked your post on ‘flakes’ and ‘enlightened’ ones. Lol lol

Now if I was to see myself in one category or another, I guess I would have to say I am a flake. In saying that, I am getting a bit sick and tired and utterly fed up with this whole ‘spiritual’ thing. So George, what are the other options in your estimate?

I am beginning to think that gathering too much info on all these ‘spiritual’ matters could leave one being interviewed by Richard (Bradshaw-Go on a belief diet.....thread) and I wonder would he deem some of us ‘mentally’ deluded when we may say we are jnanis or enlightened beings or some of the other stuff he may read here!?!?

Being a ‘flake’ (or having the belief) I do also have a tendency to want to tear people off their pedestals when I hear anyone claiming enlightenment or some ‘jnani’ state and subtly putting others down. Now I don’t know what that is about really, but one thing for sure is – I don’t do pedestals! Yuck. (maybe I am not a real flake)


George you say:

“Seems to me the world would be a nicer place generally with more flakes, even though they are totally divorced from reality.”

Why would you say flakes are totally divorced from reality when they are ‘letting’ be what they see or hear and not ‘trying’ to change things or make things different? Each path is equally valid to the one who claims it to be [in their experience] and why would anyone want to have it any other way? Whose business is it but the ‘individual’ person(s)? Different strokes for different folks.
The problem seems to arise when the individual then claims that their experience (viewpoint) is the only way or superior to others.


So why George, again, do you see flakes totally divorced from reality???


I agree with you when you say:

....“There is no objectivity to any of this, no evidence at all to suggest one is more correct than another. This is fine, but again I then cannot understand by what means you are so quick to critique other gurus to be evil, fakes or deluded.”


If one was to claim some ‘state of being’ fine, but why discount others?? Good question George.

Marina

Hi Mike,

So you are saying the sumtotal of the jnani's teaching is that there is 'no self'?

What is this 'self' strawman thats been created to be torn down? Is it a soul, or some unchanging aspect of our personality, or a sense of I-ness, or a sense of our own bodies or our minds ability to control our own bodies?

I dont think science has at all proven or even agreed what a self is. Blackmore, Bagliane and Metzinger all give hypothesis, which are more philosophical than scientific. A more scientific view might be that you (and me) are each a unique configuration of atoms from which a unique consciousness emerges. Could this be a self?

The existence of a soul has been argued over since the dawn of man, the jnani says no, others say yes. there's no firm evidence either way.

Marina,

Glad to be of service. Yes my take is you are flakeish in a good way being tolerant to most ppl, but its good that you dont swallow wholesale all thrown your way. I perhaps am quite different and need to have more faith, but i seem to have an in-built bullshit detector that wants to know 'why'?

Flakes are wonderful ppl, they dont put others down and they are generally well loved. However, they dont get to the gist of the matter. They are very useful in smoothing relations, but as useless as tits on a buffalo (scuse my french) when faced with the hard questions that reality poses.

Everone should be entitled to their point of view, and to believe whatever they want, but some viewpoints are more accurate than others, and we make that judgement upon objective evidence. For example, the claim that the earth is round as opposed to being flat are not equally correct views. They are in conflict and one is less true than the other. We argue with one another and provide evidence to try get closer to the truth.

Hi Marina,
Who is your Guru ?

tiredoldstudent

Hi George,
The jnani is not an exhalted state.
They have simply realized no self.
No religion, or status about it.

Thought creates the self by personalization
of impersonal thought. This 'self belief'
dominates our lives, until we see the folly
of its charade.

The self belief is lost all at once.
No steps, or stages. It's always now.

The Guru teaches us we have a self to get
rid of. The jnani tells us we never had a self
we could have ever got ridden of.

Ok George,


I too deem myself to have a built in 'bullshit' detector and as for asking 'why', I don't think I have gotton past the 2 yr old stage of asking whys. I have done my employers head in, in the past when she asked me to do certain things that didn't make sense to me, and I wouldn't do them if I thought it sounded stupid and was not backward about coming forward in saying so. Her answer a lot of the time was, "just do it". I think she watched the Nike add too much!


"....they don't get the gist of the matter" you say about 'flakish' people.


Well, what is the gist? I don't see reality posing any hard questions. In fact, to me reality is reality, as simple as that, until we give reality meanings and have narrations going on in our heads regarding reality and what it supposedly all means.


For example, we see a sunset and narrate how beautiful it is. The sunset is just the sunset without add ons. Someone else may say it is not beautiful and then we argue the point and come to some agreement (or not) about our beliefs and interpretations about it. If enough of us agree or if 'scientists' take their camera equipment out and 'measure' it and compare it with other sunsets, then it becomes proof.


So what good does it do me to argue with someone with a different take or viewpoint than my own? I only seem to want to do that when I want to be right or to have people to conform to my view.


Facts, according to my ideas, are merely the elements of truths, and not the truths themselves; of all matters there are none so utterly useless by themselves as your mere matters of fact. ~ Henry Mayhew


That is my take on it anyway. If you 'see things' differently, I am open to hear about it.... ;)


Marina

Hello Mike, you ask,


"Who is your Guru ?

tiredoldstudent"


myguruistheskythegrasstheseamytwoyearoldgrandson. everyoneandeverythingicomeincontactwith.realityasawhole.


Now Mike, can you answer my question I posed to yourself on the other thread??? :)


Marina

Mike,

Too much vagueness. What is a self?
Explain it as you would to a two-year old.


Marina

I think the hardest question reality poses, probably for most ppl on this board, is confronting the possibility that there are no hidden spiritual realms, no answers, no afterlife, no meaning, no purpose, no god - only a miniscule existence of time as if one was never there.

Take evolution for example, nature red in tooth and claw where only the fittest survive and alternative viewpoints are superfluous and crushed out of existence - how could such a reality be designed by a loving creator? Where the existence of lifeforms is dependent on the consumption of other lifeforms.

Your example of a sunset is a good one, but its an aesthetic judgement that depends on personal taste, tho the question as to why nature and beauty inspire such feelings of transcendence in the human animal is an interesting one in itself.

But its quite a different claim to say "I think a sunset is beautiful" as compared to "there is no sunset, its an illusion".

Hi Marina,
Again, I am asking who is
your Guru. Its not the things
you said and I can understand
why you are trying to hide him.

But, for me to answer any of your
questions, you need to tell these
people herre who your Guru is.

I already know. But, the people
here don't, so why don't you tell them.

Hi George,
The self is very simple. The thoughts
in your head are not your self, until
you identify with them via personalization.

Impersonal thought mistakenly personalizes
itself. All thought is impersonal.

Thought is a thing. Thought does not
have a persona.

But, what in your brain personalizes thought
as 'my' thought ?

Can you find the exact instant the impersonal
thought in your head 'believes' it is 'your'
thought ?

There is a subconscious barrier which believes
there is a WHO present.

But, WHO is the thinker of thought ?

Can you find the thinker of thought ?

Consciousness is not the thinker of thought
because consciousness is also impersonal.

WHO thinks they are manipulating thought
in your head ?

Well George,


"how could such a reality be designed by a loving creator? Where the existence of lifeforms is dependent on the consumption of other lifeforms."


I could say, maybe we have been those lifeforms that once existed and are now in this form...I could give karma theories, evolution theories, personal theories, spiritual theories but the true answer is - I don't know.

But I do know we human animals do make some things good and some things bad according to our likes and dislikes and judgements. And we also have a tendency to hold onto these er..beliefs all our life with unmovable 'faith'.

....but as I say George, I don't know.

I still say though, that reality is not posing these questions on life, realms, no answers, no afterlife, no meaning, no purpose, no god, but our lil brains are. Brains can make more out of what is real than what is actually there. Anything is possible depending on our viewpoint and beliefs, so whatever we believe becomes our reality and we see things from our coloured glasses perspective whereas someone with different coloured glasses see something completely opposite and we argue from there - usually. But it is all good, as maybe some of our notions that are not 'healthy' or 'true' can be let go of, if need be and if we are open.


Hi Mike,


You say the above guru's I mentioned are not my guru's.
I say they are.

Why do I need to tell people here who my guru is anyway? They already know if they have been reading my posts so I am not trying to hide anything - I have nothing to hide. Nobody is asking me who my guru is and you already know. So why ask the question, where are you coming from?

What has my question to you, which you again, have avoided, got to do with who my guru is anyway? Why is it so important to you that people know who my guru is before you answer my question?

Mike it seems an indirect way of trying to avoid answering the question I put to you by trying to put it back on me.


Marina

Hi Marina,
Tell the people here who your
Guru is.

Mike

"Impersonal thought mistakenly personalizes itself. All thought is impersonal....Can you find the exact instant the impersonal thought in your head 'believes' it is 'your' thought?"

But what you saying is not not clear, nor does it explain our reality as we experience it. If thought is impersonal as you say, why can you not read my thoughts nor I yours? So thought is completely personal or subjective.

The only way thoughts become impersonal is when they are imperfectly shared, through communication, of which humans have the most well-developed communication skills via language; but even language inadequately captures personal thoughts.

What would you call the particularly unique configuration of atoms that gives rise to your thoughts? is this not a 'self'? It certainly is uniquely personal and individual.

Are you saying that thought or some sort of cosmic consciousness is ultimate reality and that each of us taps into this errenously believing it to be our own?


Marina,

You are almost certainly correct that our human minds and conditioning place value and meaning on how we experience reality.

And yet regardless of our background, nearly all human beings of all cultures, have tried to understand the world around them and our place in it.

Perhaps human brains do complicate matters, but they are an organ specifically designed to interact and make sense of teh world around us. The human brain is particularly distinquished in two ways, which often come into conflict.

That is, ppl are often referred to as being left or right brained, logical vs the artistic, analytical vs intuitive, scientific vs mystical, etc.

Put another way it is often said science can answer the 'how' questions, but not the 'why' questions. Both questions enable humans, more than any other animal to seem to be better understand or make sense of the world around us. As far as we know, cows do not know of the law of relativity and a walrus does not appreciate bach or bob dylan.

Perhaps life is just a manifestation of the universe to make sense of order, and humans are a relatively highly-evolved evolutionary manifestation of the universe trying to understand itself?

Oh Mike,

why the instistence on who my guru is or is not? Who cares? Nobody else but you seem to. And you seem to know already.

But....just to satisfy you I will post a link to one of my first posts on the blog and anyone interested can see for themselves. Of course that was way back then, all those weeks ago. Things may have changed....but anyway, on your insistence...


http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2011/05/has-gurinder-singh-revised-sant-mat-to-v-30.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2015432379048970c#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2015432379048970c


Now will you answer my questions?

George,


I think you may think again when you say:

"...cows do not know of the law of relativity...."


We have a very special cow here in Ireland who is now known as the "Bovine Einstein"


I have posted it before, but just in case you missed it, it is worth the 2 minute watch lol lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfMGpEmiQSU&NR=1

Marina

HI George,

Yes, I cannot read your thoughts, nor you
mine.

Again, you are assuming your thoughts
are personal. That means you are
personalizing impersonal thought.

You still BELIEVE there is a self
that is the thinker of thought.

What in you is there that can personalize
thought ?

Can you find anything ?

Hi marina, You said :

Regarding how much money Gurinder has, it doesn’t bother me.

I personally cannot find fault with B J (Gurinder) with anything he has said...

I do like him and think he has something.

end quotes

I honestly do not want to talk to
you. Your only purpose here is to harass
exsatsangis.

Marina,

I see you are irish, you buggers definitely got the gift of the gab - good god the irish can only talk and drink up a storm.


If one takes up a belief or identity, they may feel harassed if someone expresses something that doesn't support it.

If I take up a belief in Republicanism, a Democrat may be seen as a form of harassment. The more fundamentalist I am in my belief, the more harassed I will feel by someone expressing something else.

By fundamentalist, I mean rigid in holding the belief. It actually becomes quite disturbing and is only natural to try to shut it out. The more I resist and try to shut out the Democrat, the more disturbing it becomes to me.

I guess one can be a fundamentalist about almost anything.

"BJ" this, "BJ" that. "BJ, BJ, BJ, BJ"

Haven't we had enough of this pseudo-mystic, this sinister vampire of soul who sucks out the sweat & blood and life & money of his gullible believers??

BJ sucks. He really sucks. He's a modern-day vampire. Anybody who likes him, or believes in him is a complete moron.

Don't take the wrong direction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SQC-X8TTY4


George :))


Well Mike,

"Your only purpose here is to harass
exsatsangis."
Harass ex-satsangis??? Oh come on Mike, get real. Where is your proof of this?

Poor, poor arguement Mike. I haven't seen that sort of argument since I was about 5 yrs old on the playground.


Why talk of things that suit only your side of the story?
Ah maybe you don't want to honestly answer the question and have taken a poor line of defence.

I would like to hear more though Mike how you see that I harass ex-satsangis. I really would, seriously.


Whatever happened to a 'good olde discussion'?
But ok, fine with me. Don't talk to me.


And I am not the one who has recently been bringing up BJ. So???

Marina

PS George, just before I head off to work (yeah I know, I am supposed to have taken early, early retirement, but they are stuck so they asked me to step back in for a few days)

Talking of 'cows' I find it funny. Now I am seeing cows everywhere.


I was just reading a bit of Ramana "Be as You Are" this morning outside in the beautiful sunshine while having a smoke and I came across this......


Q:Why cannot the mind be turned inward in spite of repeated attempts?


A:It is done by practice and dispassion and it succeeds only gradually. The mind, having been so long a cow [lol] accustomed to graze stealthily on others' estates, is not easily confined to her stall. However much her keeper tempts her with luscious grass and fine fodder, she refuses the first time. Then she takes a bit, but her innate tendency to stray away asserts itself and she slips away.....If once it [mind] finds its inner happiness it will not wander outward.

lol lol lol


Marina


The insidious thing about beliefs is that they masquerade as facts.

If I ask 20 people whether gravity is a belief or a fact, at least 19 of them would insist gravity is a fact. But gravity is a belief. If you drop something, --- it falls, that is a fact. Why it fell... there may be many theories and beliefs.... gravity being one of them [albeit an intelligent one].

If you look at almost every news story you will find someone defending their beliefs. New York Daily News

“Two suspects charged in beating of Giants fan" [team identity/belief system, defending against harassment].

“Wave of anti-abortion laws passed” [bible belief system, defending against harassment by “murder-ers”].

One set of beliefs at war with another set of beliefs. It doesn’t matter if it is Giants fans beating Dodger fans, global warming believers fighting non-believers, Greenpeace activists fighting corporate polluters ... fighting is fighting. Taking up a position and defending it ... that is not the solution ... that is the problem.


It is especially unpleasant when the believer feels they are superior. Whether it is a teacher acting superior to students, police acting superior to citizens, bosses acting superior to workers, one blogger acting superior to another, or a peace activist [morally superior] to a soldier.

In the end superiority is always the card that gets played.
Someone may say, “ I am enlightened, therefore my belief is correct.” Or in India they may say, “I am a Brahmin so my beliefs are more correct,” or in Europe, “I am a “peace activist” so my beliefs are more correct [morally superior].” It always comes down to an additional belief in being superior therefore my beliefs are better. Welcome to the fight club.

All violence starts with beliefs, they are the seeds of violence.

But.. what do we really know? How far can beliefs take us?

Show me a man of peace who believes or anti-believes in anything and I will show you a violent person.
Violent meaning: “intending to emotionally injure,” -- Oxford Dictionary

Is this not the entire situation with the human race? Power mad politicians with their paid armies and police squads forcing their beliefs on others [usually the belief that they are entitled to money].

Then when it gets just too out of balance, the oppressed overthrowing them and in a few short years becoming the very type of oppressors that they overthrew. Mad with power, superiority and beliefs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlHW1DFk-fY

The abortion rights activist criticizes the other side as being “true believers” --- that is believers in the bible. What they don’t realize is that their unbelief in the bible is as much a belief as what they fight against. They just believe the bible is wrong. Their abortion rights belief may be as rigid and fundamentalist as the bible believers --- maybe more so because
they have the superiority of having a belief that makes sense to them while the other side can offer nothing but biblical quotes from one of the sorriest manuscripts to ever hit the earth.


This belief in superiority of one person over another is the thing most loved by global rulers. They make sure it is drilled into everyone in schools and workplaces. In school we were taught that those with higher grades are superior, at work it’s one’s title, in church hierarchy the size of your hat, in society the status of your occupation or expense of your dress.

It used to rankle me at work when I was told to go see “my superior,” something in me knew we are all equal. But even in protesting calling someone “my superior,” I had to believe somewhere that they were superior in some respect or it wouldn’t have bothered me.

Part of the appeal of becoming a godman is that you can finally achieve perfect superiority over everyone. Even prime ministers, dictators and kings are of a lower order. How many who are practicing spiritual practices, are secretly hoping for such a triumph?

Marina,

So you believe that RS, and going within, has actually been a positive experience?

Have you personally had any inner mystical experiences?

Hey George,


good questions!

I was starting to write a response and honestly I am way too tired tonight after a hard days work, in the office, when I could been outside enjoying the good weather that is 'scarce' these days.


I do like to grumble now and then, to keep the balance - the middle 'path' lol

Seriously George, I will ponder and get back tomorrow, as the bed is calling me. I actually am deeply curious myself on the questions you asked ;)


Marina


Tao, you said, 
' "BJ" this, "BJ" that. "BJ, BJ, BJ, BJ"
Haven't we had enough of this pseudo-mystic, this sinister vampire of soul who sucks out the sweat & blood and life & money of his gullible believers??.'

If you really had heard enough of such things why would you be reading a blog everyday that discusses these things on a regular basis?

I think what you mean is perhaps more like an Oakland Raiders fan going to a football game and saying, “Haven’t we had enough of Green Bay Packers fans at this game,” even though it is a game against Green Bay.

There is a zen book called “selling water by the river,” that makes light of the fact that all mystics are selling to us something we already have, on the mistaken notion that supreme cosmic consciousness is not already perfectly present here and now before we do anything.

17 months left: "If you really had heard enough of such things why would you be reading a blog everyday that discusses these things on a regular basis?"

You clearly have a rather skewed and mistaken point of view here. Nice try, but your aim is way off the mark.

Fyi, the author of is blog does NOT discuss "BJ" on any regular basis. However, some commenters do seem to like to keep bringing up "BJ", but Brian (the author of this blog) only very rarely focuses specfically on this fellow "BJ". And moreover, I happen to read this blog for all the other articles that Brian writes and posts on various other subject matter, that are not related to "BJ". The repeated mentioning of this cult guru "BJ", is really only an obsession for a very few (not all) commenters.

17 months left: "I think what you mean is perhaps more like an Oakland Raiders fan going to a football game and saying, “Haven’t we had enough of Green Bay Packers fans at this game,” even though it is a game against Green Bay."

Thats not how it is at all. Its not like a sports game. Its more along the lines of... there are simply a few RS people who comment on this blog who like to keep drawing attention to this fellow "BJ", and pushing this "BJ" in everyone else's face. That is what I was referring to.

17 months left: "There is a zen book called “selling water by the river,” that makes light of the fact that all mystics are selling to us something we already have, on the mistaken notion that supreme cosmic consciousness is not already perfectly present here and now before we do anything."

Yes, thats true.

Well George,


The ‘I’ that got into RS is a different ‘I’ here now. It is hard to answer your questions objectively based on all the ‘evidence’ that would need to be given. Talking about any one or a few aspects, is not giving the ‘true’ representation therefore is lacking and even if I could, it still would be lacking as some things just cannot be put into words. But I shall do my best.


When I first heard of RS, 20 years ago ’93 (though I didn’t get initiated until ’98) I was loaded with fear. Fear was my first, last and middle name. I was bad, evil, unworthy, different......oh, the worst ever! [my beliefs] I had beliefs galore that had me being a victim for most part of my life. I needed something or someone to save me from ‘myself’ and future ‘hells’ and RS came along and seemed to fit the bill. It was a welcoming ‘hand’, a saving grace, a light at the end of a dark tunnel. If RS had said ‘there is no one to save’ I would have looked for something else.


It gave me things to do – the four vows which I needed to gain some clarity until I could even think of standing on my own two feet. BJ (not the books) has said many times, that RS is not the only way and to think so is arrogant. I also like that it is open to people to read or practise other ‘teachings’ and find our own comfort zone. (As I was told one year at the mike in Dera)


For me yes, it has been a positive experience all the way. That is not saying when I think back to experiences, that it was all ‘bliss and light’. No actually far from it.


During these times I have experienced the ‘loss’ of my son through suicide, the ‘loss’ of my first marriage, the ‘loss’ of my mother, among many other ‘losses’ which all brought strong emotional feelings, some confusion and fear. But now I can truly say these ‘losses’ and ‘gains’ (new husband, grandchild, etc) are just all and ever were just that, experiences which all come and go.


None of them last unless we insist on them lasting or 'owning' them – that is, holding onto thoughts and beliefs and putting meaning onto it all. (Personalising)


I have to say, I have been to Dera every year since I was initiated. Although I read the books in the earlier days (which put the fear of God in me at times) I was more impressed with BJ. I found myself looking at the books which seemingly was saying one thing, and then I heard BJ say something which seemed to contradict a lot of these books. On questioning BJ about this, he replied that these books where metaphors and not to be taken literally. I can see that now and it makes sense. I no longer have BJ ‘up there’ on a pedestal – superior. He is more like a friend.


One thing positive that comes to mind regarding BJ is that of acceptance. I deliberately didn’t say RS, as the ‘organisation and rules’ can in my view be dogmatic at times; nothing wrong with that either, if I don’t take it personal or make it bad. But all I ever got from BJ, even when I told him of my ‘terrible rule/vow breaking behaviour’, was not one of preaching, or even of ‘just do your meditation’, it was one of acceptance and a nice ‘comment’ like ‘you’re no different than anyone else sister’. Wow, I’m not? This indeed was very welcoming news to me!

Alas, there began (consciously) the start of the breakdown of beliefs which had caused huge seperation, that I was holding onto for dear life!


Regarding going within or mystical experiences George, no for me I have not seen any lights [only the ones in my house] or sounds [apart from noisy thoughts] or radiant forms [dreams]. Sure I have had times of peace, stillness and nothingness....all just another experience.


On meditation, I struggled with it for years, trying to stop my thoughts. My earlier years of meditation were about ‘trying’ really hard to ‘get’ something I was missing and to stop these unwanted thoughts. Oh boy, did I ‘try’. Did they stop? No. But I don’t take them seriously and more. They are just thoughts, coming and going. The believing of them has diminished a great deal.

I never really wanted ‘inner’ experiences though; as I had some of these ‘weird’ blissful/fearful experiences with the Tony Quinn group (kundalini) a few years before that. The ‘after effects’ from some of these experiences were anything but desirable; holding on and trying to repeat the experience and if it wasn’t that, it was trying to get rid of other experiences.


But being honest, I thought one had to have these ‘lights, sounds, forms’ to get anywhere lol. I even told BJ one year that I didn’t want this Sach Khand thing, all I wanted was self realisation. Or in my own words – just to be happy. I thought back then that ‘happiness’ meant always being in a blissful state and never feeling sad, hurt, angry, ever again! Ha.

Now I see happiness as this feeling that is always there, even if there is sadness, anger or tiredness there. I put this down to acceptance or allowing whatever is happening with not so much of taking it personal these days.


It was making situations ‘bad’ or something to be gotten rid of or indeed trying to repress them as ‘unspiritual’ or even trying to hold onto them, that caused problems.


So I wouldn’t say RS has ‘given’ me something, it has been more like a ‘taking’ away.
That was what meditation did for me – made me aware that there was nothing to ‘get’! Oh, the irony.



Again, the Ramana ghost story sums it up for me. It was like BJ was minding for me, something I couldn’t accept in myself from where at the time, I was coming from.

It is not about RS being good or bad, or anything. It is about how I use it. It can be used as a pointer or as a means to delude oneself.


Similarly, a knife can be used for useful purposes or as a murder weapon.


What I am saying is, I may not understand [intellectually] how ‘things’ work but this quote below on how life is ever changing says a lot.

17 months mentioned a zen saying about a river above. I don’t know if it is from the same book, but a little zen saying I like:

“You can never put your hand in the same river twice.”


Meaning, you could go to the same river every day at the same time and put your hand in the same spot.....but the water is always different, always changing, always fresh, always new.


I hope this George went someway to answering your questions, but if not, I’m sure you will let me know!


Tara:
“..................The guy [BJ]never ceases to amuse me.
I've seen his personal ( HIHF ) side and professional ( GIHF ) role.
Still, I can't decide whether I'm laughing at him or at myself.”

I like your honesty.

Marina

Marina: "BJ (not the books) has said many times, that RS is not the only way and to think so is arrogant. I also like that it is open to people to read or practise other ‘teachings’ and find our own comfort zone. (As I was told..."

That is not true. RS has been quite dogmatically touting its (supposed) superiority from the very beginning. Sar Bachan, by Shiv Dayal Singh, is full of both intimations as well as outright claims that Sant Mat is singularly superior to all other spiritual philosophies, persuasions and practices. So "BJ" is wrong.

Marina: "I found myself looking at the books which seemingly was saying one thing, and then I heard BJ say something which seemed to contradict a lot of these books."

Then what BJ says does not represent or reflect the bulk of Sant Mat. Just because he contradicts, does not alter or dismiss the teachings that was delineated before he arrived. One of the cornerstones or fundamental premises of Sant Mat, is that the teachings of Sant Mat do not ever change, and have not ever changed. They are supposed to be the same now as they were a thousand year ago. Yet now this fellow BJ wants to change them?? Then he is a hypocrite, since he claims to represent Sant Mat. So apparently "BJ" is not adhering to the timeless nature of the Sant mat. All of his predecessors adhered to the premise that the teaching of Sant Mat always remains the same, and never changes.

Marina: "On questioning BJ about this, he replied that these books where metaphors and not to be taken literally."

That is NOT what all of his predecessors, and all of their writings, have said.

Marina: "I can see that now and it makes sense."

Then you have been mislead... for it makes no sense at all. This "BJ" fellow does not determine what Sant Mat is. That has already been done long ago. He cannot simply go back and change the teaching. The Sant Mat teachings were established long before "BJ" ever came on the scene. So "BJ" is only showing that he is a fraud. One of the main cornerstones of Sant mat is that it never changes, and that it needs no re-interpretation or alteration. So therefore, if you believe and follow what "BJ" says, then you are not following or practicing Sant Mat as it has been taught by all the previous masters.

Marina: "all I ever got from BJ, even when I told him of my ‘terrible rule/vow breaking behaviour’, was not one of preaching, or even of ‘just do your meditation’, it was one of acceptance and a nice ‘comment’ like ‘you’re no different than anyone else sister’."

So what, thats just a standard reply. The real question is, why do you feel you need "acceptance" from some guy who contradicts and denies what all previous masters have said?? Therefore he holds no authority. So why do you look for acceptance from someone like that??

Marina: "My earlier years of meditation were about ‘trying’ really hard to ‘get’ something I was missing and to stop these unwanted thoughts"

You cannot stop thoughts. No one can stop thoughts. And moreover, it is not necessary to do so. Thought is the nature of the mind (and the brain). You cannot control the mind. It is not possible. It is the nature of mind. So don't try. Thought will eventually subside naturally, through deep inquiry.

A metaphor for disaster

What we don't realize about Gurus is
they must have one quality if they
are sane.

They must be sociopathic and have absolutely no heart.

Tao said:
One of the cornerstones or fundamental premises of Sant Mat, is that the teachings of Sant Mat do not ever change, and have not ever changed. They are supposed to be the same now as they were a thousand year ago. Yet now this fellow BJ wants to change them??

-- when i heard Charan said that the method never changed and not the teachings i understand him said that method of listening the sound never changes and for 'simran or concentration' he said that there are many schools of concentration . And this 'BJ' fellow is not changing the method or so called teachings this is only different approach of so called teachings and it is just anothers man view of the same method of sound. I have my own life my own view point and my own right to do anything and think anything in life sometimes i do not give a second of others oppinion and sometimes i give my all concentration to others oppinion. I don't need any Brian or Mike to save me i am fuly opened and listens to everyone. And yes i am a moron a big one and this fellow BJ is also a moron but i also think that this all discussion about this BJ and RS is also boring as hell Tao is repeating him self Mike doesn't have anything new to offer just the words from books like 'tHAT' or 'SELF' boring as hell. Tao i would rather know from your music career and your life cause i respect you and like you but with this RS stuff you are repeating yourself just like RS people. And i think Mike is also just as dogmatic with his non guru dogma as RS dogma. As far as i am concerned one cannot know either one is GIHF or a fraud both claims to me are dogmatic stuff. And currently i will not change my view, whatever you guys write back. And yes Tao i agree with you when you said to someone that not only RS is discussed here and that there are other stuff too and i love other stuff too cause many times this RS stuff is really boring.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTWSSCYUD4E

P.S. I just got Huang po and some Dzogchen stuff you recomended,thanks

Well tAo,


Regarding BJ, I hear what you are saying but I still don't see that he is changing the teachings but adding more light to them. I find it more digestible.

For instance, back to the Ramana ghost story.
You yourself tAo seem a man who has studied Ramana's teachings and have said you realised them. How do you explain the ghost story? I see it similar to RS. As in the ghost story, there is a boy that sees a ghost. He is extremely afraid. His father tells him he will protect him from the ghost, don't worry. I don’t think it would help him denying his fears at this stage.
Next day he goes back with a his teacher and in the ‘daylight’ he sees it was not a ghost it was just a tree stump. Had he said his father lied to him because there was no ghost or taken the other side and said the teacher was calling his father a liar, both conclusions would be wrong. He obviously saw that he needed his father’s reassurance of protection at that particular time. When his teacher pointed out that there was no ghost, he was now in a position to see more clearly that there never was a ghost.


To me it is a deepening of the truth or a maturing.


We don’t put down our mothers or fathers as frauds because they told us there was a Santa Claus. Maybe they were unconsciously telling us that Santa represents our real selves and if you were good [true, enquiring, honest with ourselves] the outcome would be gifts [happiness, openness, integrity, freedom, oneness, enlightenment, bliss]. Maybe that was a lesson on our true nature. Then came the time when we were told there was no ‘Santa’ (time to grow up) it was our parents [teachers, guru, guides]. Some of us may have cried in disbelief –‘you are lying, there is a Santa’ (like my youngest son did ;)) Maybe then our parents say you will still get a gift at Christmas time.(a stage where we ‘see’ the light) Eventually, we are left to get the gifts for ourselves or we may get a ‘surprise’ when a gift appears from somewhere ‘out of the blue’(no trying), no explanation, no reason. We get surprised! lol


You can take it with anything. You can say alcohol is wrong. Men come home and beat their wives or kids and cause great pain so therefore drink must be banned but then what about the people that like a wee drink after a hard working day to relax and chill? Who is right?


One thing I cannot understand tAo is when people get a glimpse of the truth and then subtly comes a belief that this path that they are on is the only one. Their way is the only way or the only true path. This is separation in itself and it is putting one thing superior over another. Arrogance. Different medicine for different ailments.


I think this grasping onto a belief even subtly is an attempt to hold onto the experience. It can be so subtle it can go unmissed for weeks, months, years or even a whole lifetime.


Take even the two zen schools. One says the ‘way’ is quick while the other says slow and steady. Now these two schools call each other names and more separation ensues. In other words, again, one is claiming superiority over the other. What happened to we are all one?


Why do we need to make any other group wrong? Why do we need to claim the ‘right’ way anyway? Why does it bother us what anyone else does or doesn’t do? If I don’t like ice-cream, I don’t eat it. If I do, well I indulge in it to whatever degree I choose maybe even delude myself into thinking an ice-cream diet is healthy and all that ever should be eaten, thereby giving ‘ice-cream’ a bad name. Putting anything down as ‘wrong’ is acting superior and somewhere there is a belief of right and wrong, good and bad, superior and inferior. As 17 months said somewhere, being against someone or some group, even for ‘good moral’ purposes, is just more violence.


Also tAo, Ramana may say the direct path is self enquiry and I am not arguing with that but he also says for those who can't grasp that, that the path of bhakti/surrender or devotion will bring you there too. To me it ends in the same place. One may have a guru and focus on that and may see his guru's radiant form inside, then to realise 'I am that' which further inquired leads into who this ‘I’ is all eventually leading one to the Self anyway. Just like water flowing from all different sources back to the ocean.


Similarly, I may want to go to Dublin. I can take the direct way up the motor way or I can go by the back roads. Some people may not own a car and have to go by bicycle.[whatever place/state one is coming from at that moment]

To say anyone should go a certain route one must need to know everything about that person and know what is good for them to make that decision.


All roads lead to Rome!


tAo when you say that: "Sar Bachan, by Shiv Dayal Singh, is full of both intimations as well as outright claims that Sant Mat is singularly superior to all other spiritual philosophies, persuasions and practices. So "BJ" is wrong."


I see it differently. How can anyone say their way is the only way? If Shiv Dayal Singh was here right now I would question him on having the only way. But even saying superior to all other spiritual paths is not saying 'the only way'. Maybe he thought RS was superior to other paths but I think it depends on the level and needs of the individual person. And I also don’t know the context of why Shiv Dayal said that. So I cannot make a judgement there.


And tAo, what really has changed? There are still 4 vows. You may say that ‘no one will meet you after death’ or ‘meditation will get you there’, but what does even that mean? Is there really any death? And meditation will get you there? Yes, get you to realise the mind cannot understand or do anything. So I don’t really see any contradictions, just other ways of looking at the same thing.

Regarding BJ’s response to me ‘that I am no different than anyone else’, I don’t see that as a standard answer. Many people would condemn, judge, preach, tell me I was wrong. No offence tAo, but if I was your ‘student’ I think you would have me black and blue at this stage. Lol lol lol.
I don’t need BJ’s acceptance the way I did tAo. I sure thought I needed that and approval and validation but I can’t get it from out there – well it doesn’t last. I have it all myself :)


Yes tAo, nothing wrong with thoughts. Not a damned thing. When you say:

“Thought will eventually subside naturally, through deep inquiry.”

Have you looked at the thoughts of BJ being a ‘fraud’ etc? Not being smart tAo, but have you really inquired?
I find when I have put someone down in anyway, it usually is saying more about me than the other person. That does not mean one has to ignore something but usually when there is a negative feeling involved, it is a warning bell to check out ones thoughts or beliefs. If we are not honest with ourselves, really honest, we can’t ‘move’ on.


Adyashanti who I really like said that there are different awakenings – you can have an intellectual awakening, a heart awakening and a gut awakening. (complete – all three) A lot of people may have one or the other or a mixture on some level. That explains why some people seem to ‘know’ about being ‘one’ or enlightened but there is still something lacking, be it compassion or openness or whatever and similarly you can have a heart awakening and feel ‘one’ with everything but are missing the intellectual side of it. A lot of the time the ‘gut’ is still even subtly holding onto or grasping[fear] this awakening and you can tell by the way they defend or come across as superior.


I see that as one of the reasons why there apparently seems to be so many different ‘beliefs’ about the way ‘to go’.

Marina

Marina,

Thank you for your brutal honesty.

It sounds like you have led a very eventful life with some impossibly difficult events in it, I am quite amazed at how well you cope all things considered. Dunno what to say to some of those things, you are very brave.

I would just remark on one thing, ultimately you do not need to justify your beliefs to anyone else, that is one thing that is definitely your own. imho you must do whatever makes you most content in this life.

What is quite interesting for me is that even Brian seems to have some good things to say about RS, and some of the gurus as people, despite this site occasionally deteriating into an RS-bashing session.

Insofar as evidence is concerned, dont worry about that, I simply asked for your subjective feelings and thoughts on RS. I do put a lot of emphasis on science, but it is only a tool and there are many aspects of reality for which there is little or no evidence. Indeed it is most of the feelings that are deepest and have most meaning that cannot even properly be described, let alone evidenced.


Tao,

Marina made no claims as to what RS stands for, she simply passed on what BJ has said to her personally. So while you might believe BJ is a hyprocrite for conflicting with your view of RS teachings, what Marina is providing is a simple account of what was personally said to her in reply to my request.

Marina: "tAo, Regarding BJ [...] I still don't see that he is changing the teachings but adding more light to them."

Well, other people say that he has been altering and changing the teachings. So I guess they differ from you.


Marina: "How do you explain the ghost story?"

I don't do ghost stories.


"I see it similar to RS. As in the ghost story, [.....] When his teacher pointed out that there was no ghost, he was now in a position to see more clearly that there never was a ghost."

No, Ramana was simply referring to the illusory or ghost-like nature of the ego or 'I', as compared to the Self.


"To me it is a deepening of the truth or a maturing."

I don't agree. People do NOT need to be fed myths or fantasies, no matter how you try to cut it. Adult people are not young children, so they don't need to be fed fantasies and illusions.


"We don’t put down our mothers or fathers as frauds because they told us there was a Santa Claus."

its not the same. people who get intom sant mat & RS are not children. they don't need to be fed myths and fantasies.


"Maybe they were unconsciously telling us that Santa represents our real selves [...] Maybe that was a lesson on our true nature."

"You can say alcohol is wrong. Men come home and beat their wives or kids and cause great pain so therefore drink must be banned but then what about the people that like a wee drink after a hard working day to relax and chill? Who is right?"


"One thing I cannot understand tAo is when people get a glimpse of the truth and then subtly comes a belief that this path that they are on is the only one. Their way is the only way or the only true path."


"What happened to we are all one?"

You are mistaken, I never said "we are all one". So what are you referring to?


"Why do we need to make any other group wrong?"

Ask that to RS and the RS satsangis.


"Why do we need to claim the ‘right’ way anyway?"

Ask that to the RS satsangis.


"Why does it bother us what anyone else does or doesn’t do?"

Ask that to the RS satsangis.


"Putting anything down as ‘wrong’ is acting superior and somewhere there is a belief of right and wrong, good and bad, superior and inferior."

Who are you talking about? It appears you are confused. Its not complicated. I simply said that your "BJ" is wrong... Why is he wrong? Because, apparently, he is now changing the teachings of RS/santmat... teachings that all his predecessors claimed never change. Many different commenters and satsangis have said and admitted that "BJ" is altering and changing the RS teachings. So go talk to them about it.


"As 17 months said somewhere, being against someone or some group, even for ‘good moral’ purposes, is just more violence."

Thats a load of bullshit, imo.


"Ramana may say the direct path is self enquiry and I am not arguing with that but he also says for those who can't grasp that, that the path of bhakti/surrender or devotion will bring you there too."

So what? What does that matter?


"To me it ends in the same place."

Thats your opinion.


"To say anyone should go a certain route one must need to know everything about that person and know what is good for them to make that decision."

I never said that anyone should or must "go a certin route".


"All roads lead to Rome!"

No, not always. Cliches aren't always true.


tAo said: "Sar Bachan, by Shiv Dayal Singh, is full of both intimations as well as outright claims that Sant Mat is singularly superior to all other spiritual philosophies, persuasions and practices. So "BJ" is wrong."

Marina replies: "I see it differently. How can anyone say their way is the only way?"

I think you are confused. I never said that any particular "way" is the "only way". But thats more or less what Soamiji and RS says. So go ask RS why they say that "their way is the only way".


"If Shiv Dayal Singh was here right now I would question him on having the only way."

Then you should question him and not me.


"But even saying superior to all other spiritual paths is not saying 'the only way'."

Not exactly the same, but very similar... "superior" and/or "the only way".


"Maybe he thought RS was superior to other paths but I think it depends on the level and needs of the individual person."

I really don't care what you think. Its not about what YOU think. It was about what the founder of the RS Mat thought and stated.


"And I also don’t know the context of why Shiv Dayal said that."

Then go read Sar Bachan... for therein is "the context".


"And tAo, what really has changed?"

You tell me.


"Is there really any death?"

That's a questiuon you will have to answer for yourself.


"the mind cannot understand or do anything."

Thats merely your opinion.


"No offence tAo, but if I was your ‘student’ I think you would have me black and blue at this stage."

Thats incorrect. I do NOT support, condone, or engage in violence. So don't intimate that I would.


"I don’t need BJ’s acceptance the way I did"

Thats better.


tAo said: “Thought will eventually subside naturally, through deep inquiry.”

Marina replies: "Have you looked at the thoughts of BJ being a ‘fraud’ etc?"

Well, 'BJ being a fraud' is simply my considered opinion, a conclusion based upon a number of different facts and evidence.


"tAo, but have you really inquired?"

You are apparently mistaken or confused. The inquiry aforementioned, is simply inquiry into the nature of one's own identity.


"I find when I have put someone down in anyway, it usually is saying more about me than the other person."

I wasn't "putting someone down". I was simply stating my own opinion. You take things far too personally.


"usually when there is a negative feeling involved, it is a warning bell to check out ones thoughts or beliefs."

You'd better ask yourself about that. Because I don't have or hold any "negative feeling".


"If we are not honest with ourselves, really honest, we can’t ‘move’ on."

Again, thats really something you may need to ask yourself.


"Adyashanti who I really like said...."

I really couldn't care less about Adyashanti. I just have no interest in someone like that, nor any interest in what they say.


"some people seem to ‘know’ about being ‘one’ or enlightened but there is still something lacking, be it compassion or openness or whatever and similarly you can have a heart awakening and feel ‘one’ with everything but are missing the intellectual side of it."

Thats nothing but a load of pseudo-spiritual mumbo-jumbo. Its nonsense and rubbish imo.

Religion
competes for men’s loyalties. Collectivists view religion as a device by which clerics keep the downtrodden masses content by offering a vision of something better in the next world.

If your goal is to bring about change, contentment is not what you want. You want
discontentment. That’s why Marx called religion the opiate of the masses. Religion
encourages contentment and dulls the anger and passion needed for revolutionary change.

http://www.freedom-force.org/pdf/futurecalling2.pdf

The History of the Federal Reserve Bank and Secret Societies (taking over the world RIGHT NOW )

GOT GOLD ?

Good morning tAo,

Why are you acting so grumpy?

I disagree that adults don’t need myths or stories. All teachings [including Ramana] use them. So you are on your ‘own’ with that one. And sometimes you can get more sense while dealing with kids than with adults. Some adults appear to never have grown up.


[me]"tAo, but have you really inquired?"


[tAo] “You are apparently mistaken or confused. The inquiry aforementioned, is simply inquiry into the nature of one's own identity.”

Well tAo, you sure seem to be ‘inquiring’ into everyone else’s identity. (the RS gurus)


Do you like anyone tAo? :)


Regarding the RS teachings changing; as Mungos said the method hasn't changed.

[me] "Ramana may say the direct path is self enquiry and I am not arguing with that but he also says for those who can't grasp that, that the path of bhakti/surrender or devotion will bring you there too."


[tAo] So what? What does that matter?

It doesn’t matter. You yourself have said you have realised Ramana’s teachings but you seem to be at odds even with Ramana. Imagine if you started teaching Ramana?

“I do not teach only the ajata[doctrine of advaita Vedanta]. I approve of all schools. The same truth has to be expressed in different ways to suit the capacity of the hearer” ~ Ramana.

I see all spiritual groups/teachers saying the same thing in different ways and from different levels. Granted, some give a 'fuller' picture, some more so than others but basically the same. And when asked about 'apparent' discrepancies on other 'paths', that particular 'teacher' will usually throw some light on the so called discrepancy [albeit a legitimate teacher]


tAo, I am not fighting with you. You want to see spiritual groups as wrong or frauds, fine, no big deal. It is just interesting. Maybe you mentioned before but why and when did you turn against RS? Do you think Charan was a fraud too?


Marina

Well Mike,

At first I was disagreeing with you about religion teaching contentment, as I see some religion teaching fear through their stories and myths of heaven and hell – even if it is for ‘good’ purposes. But then on bringing it one step further, some of these religions can reinforce in the individual some form of contentment that can be used as a safety net or comfort zone from these doomed hells which these religions promise salvation from.

On gold - is there actually physical gold, do they actually have the gold that people are buying? How do you know where the ‘real’ gold is?

Marina

The comments posted here are proof what UG said: We all are barking dogs...There are only empty words and we interpret those words based on the information and knowledge put in our head since our birth...here we are barking through typed words...that's it!

PD, I assume you're including your own comment in the mix as another vocalization from a "barking dog." And wouldn't everything UG said and wrote himself also be just BARK, BARK, BARK ?

So are you saying that all human communications are useless? (Not that barking is useless; our dog does a great job of telling us when the UPS truck pulls into our driveway.)

Or are you saying that certain people are entitled to make judgments about what is useless barking, and what is useful speech?

To me, that last attitude would be, well, excessively judgmental.

http://remembering-ug.blogspot.com/

Remembering U. G. Krishnamurti: A collection of his Talks, Quotes, Audiobooks, Photos and Videos

The problem, Mike Williams, is that your beloved Jiddu was a fucking liar, he had a girl in every part, contrary to his words, he used to say that gurus are a problem and not a solution but he never stopped being a guru himself! He left the TS but didn't stop being a bastard doing excatly what he said that shouldn't be done! UG on the other way round really lived what he found out by himself, with a thirst for truth, for being honest with himself, and not with the value system. So, Jiddu was just another one of the fake scoundrels, UG used the same lingo because he and Jiddu had the same teachers, but he was actually honest, different from Jiddu who was a phony.

Hey people

just read or listen to UG carefully!!!

Whatever u r commenting on him is you description of UG about which he was never worried. Guru or Non-guru is the craziness of people.

People talk to him and he reply back with the limitations of words. That is it. He never told to agree or disagree. That is left to you.

He is least bothered abt society, its judgement and EQUALLY HIS WORDS as all of them are JUST THOUGHTS

I feel (again a thought!!! to wonder at) u will just remain with no words after listening to him.......

i.e.IT

UG is just great

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHvQiDIjzvQ


I'm not sure if I am missing something with regards to what UG has often said. He refers to mind/thought/memories as the instrument that has enabled us to know everything we know to date and that this instrument has not given us the results we desire so far.

He advises that the tremendous faith we place in this instrument to help us achieve the answer to our questions is the crux of the problem. So that one it dawns on us that we cannot derive answers from our thoughts, we realise there is nothing to understand and no problems to solve.

So my question is, if the mind and thoughts are not the instrument for understanding things or solving problems, by what method does he suppose he came to this understanding and solving this problem?? Surely through mind and thought??

Like I said, maybe I am missing something. But is appears deeply flawed to me.

Hi Jimmy,
Excellent question.

Thought is a thing, not a WHO.

Thought has no personality. Yet, like
frosting on a cake, thought believes
it is personalized.

Can thought ever be personalized ?

It at the exact point thought personalizes
itself, that all of mankinds problems begin.

The personalized thought, self, or WHO,
is a belief of impersonal thought.

The self, WHO, is a belief. How do you get
rid of a false belief ?

Not with a cannon, but with a broomstick.

See the falacy. WHO builds great monuments
to itself. From Popes to Saints, they all
think they are great, in all humility of
course.

It was the jnani in the crowd that hollered
out,' You Saints have no clothes. Take
your vanity and pious righteousness and shove it.'

The Saints have screwed up the world.
They belong in mental institutions.

Jimmy,

The mind, brain activity and thoughts are good instrument(s) for understanding things or solving problems. But, you should realize that things and problem solving are in the relative. In the realm of time and space, one can investigate relative truth.

Roger, I disagree. Even investigating the so called relative truth is going the wrong path. Pathless path is the way to go.

This might be interesting here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMRrCYPxD0I

UG is the only one talking about the Stranglehold of Thought.

He was right. Nothing else matters.

Nice One
Hey, I have U. G. Krishnamurti books, You can download them from http://drsecureweb.blogspot.in/2016/01/u-g-krishnamurti-books-download.html

U.G. was a Cosmic Prankster and the joke was on you.

Does it matter what UG or J Krishnamurti told people and how did they behave or what was their message to mankind.

in the end, nothing matters.

you all people are just making statement as per your likes and dislikes. Nature is not interested in so called enlightened people. even if they were, what does it mean for us.

Every time we hear someone with the hope of understanding something, we are just trying to imitate their concepts into ours. everybody has concepts and only concepts which they had out of their experience of some kind.

Look the real situation of your life which needs to be taken care which is more important than these concepts. these people has never helped anybody and will not be able to.

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