U.G. Krishnamurti -- intriguing, irritating, inspirational

I don't know what to make of U.G. Krishnamurti. That would have pleased him, I'm sure. (He died in 2007.)

U.G. liked to say, "I have no teaching...I have no claims." Yet he was one of those un-teachers who somehow managed to do a lot of what sure looked like spiritual guiding.

Personally, I find such behavior exasperating.

I want to scream, "Dude, if you've got nothing to say, if you don't want to be looked upon as a guru, don't talk to people, don't let them make recordings and videos of you, don't allow books to be made out of your conversations!"

So I found a lot to agree with in David Quinn's critique of U.G. Krishnamurti. Such as:

Accordingly, I find UG's attempts to repel people very insincere. The fact that he is frequently abusive, often rudely telling people to go away, is held up as a kind of proof that he is somehow different to the other gurus, that he really doesn't sell himself in order to be popular. But it doesn't wash with me. Look deeply into the man and you will see all the con tricks of a typical salesman.

UG doesn't really want to repel people. He only wants to be seen to be doing so. This is his image, his trademark style. It is the covert means by which he can attract a following. I mean, if he truly wanted to repel people, he could do so very easily.

On the plus side, I've been enjoying "Mind is a Myth," which mostly consists of transcribed conversations people had with U.G. (It's available for free online, in accord with U.G.'s marvelous copyright notice, which I like a lot.)

This morning I read the Not-Knowing is Your Natural State chapter.

Though U.G. claims that his teaching (oops, non-teaching) isn't related to anything that has come before, it sounds very similar to Zen, Advaita, Dzogchen, Taoism, and other messages that basically say "what you're looking for is what you are."

You have no recourse but to use thought to get what you want in this world. But when you seek to get what does not exist -- God, bliss, love, etc. -- through thought, you only succeed in pitting one thought against another, creating misery for yourself and the world.

...If there is anything that can happen, it must happen now. Since you don't want anything to happen now, you push it away into something you have named "the future."

...Instead of being what you are -- unkind -- you pursue the fictitious opposite put before you -- kindness. To emphasize what we should be, only causes strain, giving momentum to what we already in fact are.

In nature we find the animals at one time violent and brutal, at others kind and generous. For them there is no contradiction. But man is told he must be always good, kind, loving, never greedy or violent. We emphasize only one side of reality, thus distorting the whole picture.

...You have to be saved from the very idea that you have to be saved. You must be saved from the saviours, redeemed from the redeemers. If it is to happen, it must happen now.

There's quite a bit that I find questionable in the U.G. unteachings. However, I resonate with the core of his non-message.

U.G. usually is quite abrupt, even insulting, to his questioners. But here's a Q & A where the lucky person making the query got a pat on the back, apparently because he perceived the essence of what U.G. is about.

Q: So it is the fantasizing about a non-existent ideal person, society, or state that dooms and fixes me where I am. My belief in what I am does not determine what I in fact am. Is that it?

U.G.: That's it. And the greatest ideal, the most imposing, perfect and powerful is, of course, God. It is an invention of frightened minds. The history of human thinking has produced saints, teachers, gurus, and bhagvans. Man has already messed up his life, and religion has made it worse.

Comments

[Brian Hines]

Just testing to see how a new commenting feature works. Hopefully, it will be better than the old comment way.

[Brian]

Here I am commenting on my comment. How marvelously self-absorbent.

[Turnertoons]

I thought I would test this Brian.

I found that I could not upload a picture.

How do I fix that?

[The Rambling Taoist]

If we're honest, most people (including ourselves) are "intriguing, irritating, inspirational" at one time or another. In this regard, I suspect UG is no different than any other person (or is that non-person?).

You also stated that his message sounds like "Zen, Advaita, Dzogchen, Taoism, and other messages". For me, that's not surprising at all because each philosophy is grappling with and trying to explain many of the same things. The differences between these various traditions is in the frame of reference, symbolism and use of metaphor.

[Brian Hines]

Have you signed up for a free TypePad Connect account? When you do that, you should be presented with a Profile page where info you want to share about yourself can be inputted.

I just changed my photo, last night, to reflect a more outdoorsy Oregon feel. If I recall correctly, the photo didn't change after I clicked the "upload" (or whatever it's called) button. But when I exited the profile change page, the new photo appeared on my profile -- and on the test comment I'd left.

Hope this helps. Upload a photo and then see if it appears on your profile page and comment, even if it doesn't show up on the upload page.

[Turnertoons]

Brian, I agree that UG's material has a distinct zen like quality to it. He also gets people to perceive him as a guru by insisting that he is not a guru. I think he wanted to be a guru but he did not want to be identified with the common guru herd. So he deliberately contrived this unique, but exasperating style. Thus instead of just being another guru he very craftily became the one and only unguru guru.

The UnGuru guru was simply UG's “shtick”.

His copyright notice reinforces this too. It gives me the freedom to misinterpret, distort and garble his material as much as I please.

[tAo]

Hi everyone... Ive been away for the last few weeks, and I see that the Churchless river of change is still flowing onwards since I was here last.

Before I comment on UG, I'd like to say that imo Brian, this obscure little blog of yours is one of the most philosophically thoughtful, intelligent, and sober-minded sites anywhere on the web. I am most fond of it, and I feel good to have been able to participate here in some small way (as a guest commenter). So I'd like to give you some very well deserved recognition and high praise. And your recent article about UG seems like a right appropriate place to do so. Thank you so very much for this site and all that you have shared with everyone here over the years.

As for UG... I actually met and spoke at length with UG once upon a time back in the 1980s. I loved him and found him to be quite genuine and uncompromising. But I can also understand how some folks who never knew him personally, might think that he was on a guru trip, even though he appeared otherwise.

But my experience with him was that he really was not trying to be any sort of guru at all. In fact he was extremely critical of anything associated with the guru thing, and this was not just for style. He really did not give a damn who listened to him, or whether or not books were published or recordings made. He truly did not give a shit about any of that stuff. And so, because he did not care one iota, he also did nothing whatsoever to prevent it either. His essential attitude and/or message (if you choose to call it a message), of which you are fairly cogniznant, was exactly who he was and where he was at. There was no contrived game there at all. This was profindly obvious nto those who spent time with him in person.

If one simply receive and take exactly what he said at face value (without overlaying any supposed guru-game thing upon him), then you too will grok his view, and will become free of 'it all' just like he was.

It is my contention that UG (or UGs so-called message) unlocks us from the labryinth an illusion of spirituality, into reality itself, the uncarved block so to speak.

Thank you for considering my views.

[Brian Hines]

tAo, I appreciate your U.G observations. They help to balance the "this anti-guru wanted to be a guru" theory. Like I said, I resonate with much of what U.G. says, but not all of it. That's as U.G. would want it -- people thinking for themselves and trusting their own immediate experience over distant dogma.

[mohan]

To me if there is any meaning to enlightenment, U.G. is the one, if there is any meaning to saint, he is the one. He is a the only living example I have seen, not just saying, he lived. It is evident from the way he died, suggesting his friends not to keep any trace of his being when he is dead explains everything. I havent met him, I know him only through his talks posted in free media. If you really really understand what he meant of his talks, you will know why he sometime need to shout or yell at those who come to see him, no business man (either religious or other) will do that.

[ashy]

I attended one of J. Krishnamurti's lectures at Brockwood Park U.K. in 1976. Not sure of this is the same Krishnamurti who Annie Bessant and Madame Blavatsky tried to inculcate as the next world messiah under their auspices of Theosophy early in the last century or if he is somebody else, or whether this U.G. is the self same individual or not, but those lecture mainly to a collection of gape eyed American students pretty much left the audience hanging in no mans land.

Something along the lines of trying to pierce the intellect with the intellect and leading the thinking faculty to the point of nothingness, but thereafter, .. well nothing... nothing whatsoever to catch a hold of, not a thought, not a concept, not an imagination, not a dream, not an illusion, not a sound or a light or a form or a feeling, just absolutely stark nothing.

Maybe he had nothing to give of his own or else he was just leading everybody on to nothingness so they could find whatever they were looking for on their own. Still was not a very elevating or soulful experience, seems to me perhaps at the back of it all, was just mind, like what goes around much of the time around here.

Mind, mind, mind, mind... all this illusive, non contemplative, non experiential, self absorbed mind.

Pity really, because the human sentient being is really such a whole lot more than that.

[mohan]

Hi,

U.G. is the one who made me understand that there is nothing other than thoughts, which ofcourse doesnt belong to any individual. What is left in you without that, will never know. One thing that is important to notice in him is, he lived a honest life not cared for anything (name, money or others opinion) etc., this should be the actual state what all scriptures others talk about the state of saint, but every other individual talked and lived opposite except U.G. If you dont care for anything whatsoever, than you are already in that sate, you dont need any effort, that is why all efforts take you to opposit direction. All phony gurus who claims englightened depend on old scriptures modifying here and there and claim they have new concept, all that will earn them money leaving you in more mess. That is why U.G. not interested to fool others for the reason he is not interested in money or fame etc., if you want, there is a message from his life, it is upto you to take it.

[Paul]

I met UG in 1979 and saw him regularly up to his last days in Vallecrosia. If you had a chance to spend a lot of time with him you eventually would be around when he wasn't talking at all, just sitting or resting or driving for hours in a car. It was at these times when a kind of peacefulness came and you realized that it wasn't necessary for you to ask any questions or for him to make any comments. He did talk for much of his day but it all was to blast away the utterly useless thoughts and questions of those around. In this talking he was extraordinarily fascinating, absorbing and humorous, also shocking and frightening. But the silent times were even more affecting, almost devastating.
It's interesting that people who never met him often complain about what they see in videos and read in books. Many hundreds of people all over the world met him with similar attitudes. It took UG about 2 minutes to completely disarm them and most went away saying they had never met anyone like him in their whole life.

[mohan]

Paul,

I dont understand what you mean by saying that people who never met him often complain about what they see in videos, do you mean they misjudge. I never complained, I thought I understood him well, correct me if you think I am not. If you read what I said above about U.G. then you know it is only positive things and not negative. I do beleive either I met him personally or know him through his videos, I understand what he wanted to convey.

His message if it there.

There is nothing to understand about life and it cannot be understood with our instrument(thought)and there is no other instrument. All you can do is, play with your thoughts. There is no way you can seperate yourself from thoughts, what is you is thoughts, and even that thoughts are put by your culture. The question whether one is enlightened or not has no relevance.

Let me know if you understand any thing more by being with him, which I missed.

No matter what, U.G. is my best bet, I know it doesnt matter to him even if he is alive, I have seen him talk exactly the way I personally thought about life.

[Paul]

Mohan,
Not everyone is complaining about UG but I often notice that those who never met UG do remark about what they see in videos as UG's sometimes harsh manner,or they saw him as angry or even rude. Others, like you perhaps, saw something different.
UG once said to a long-time friend "I am attacking your false ideas and concepts which you use to protect your non-existent self, so that you can be related to all that surrounds you."
What could be more compassionate than that? To be related to all that is around.

[Roger]

"UG once said to a long-time friend "I am attacking your false ideas and concepts which you use to protect your non-existent self, so that you can be related to all that surrounds you."

---The statement is understandable, however, relating to others, that surround, is ok. So, i'm not perfect, an occasional false idea or concept, may slip out. No great harm done.

[Dave]

UG could also have drawn followers using the "regular" guru techniques. He has the education, charm and background to bring in 1000 times the kind of following (un-following) that he had during his death. In fact Saibaba has more following today than people who read "mind is a myth".

For this blog post and expert opinions on UG, he will reply back saying that those interpretations are due to the knowledge you have and confusion that arise out of your usage of language or rich imaginations of myth mind.

[Mike Williams]

Jiddo Krishnamurti and U. G. Krishnamurti
are two different people. U. G. admits 90% of what he says is the same as Jiddo, but in the end, he did not like Jiddo.

I first met Jiddo in 1970 when I was only 18 years old. Jiddo was hailed by the theosophical society as the next Messiah.
He had thousands of premade followers ready
to worship him as the reincarnation of Lord Maitreya.

As a kid he wrote The Adventures of Alclone
telling his adventures through the inner
planes. In this respect he was as advanced as one can get.

But, he rejected his role as saviour. He turned into the biggest Anti Guru the world has ever seen. He ranted against religion and gurus. Spent his life warning people off.

He is without question the most read antiteacher. Everyone who was anyone in the spiritual world came to see the great Jnani.

Behind the scenes Gurus and teachers would fall at his feet.

During his life I could not understand him.

Along came U. G. Krishnamurti, whom only saw Jiddo a couple times.

U. G. basically reformulated what Jiddo
was saying. He made it much more easy to
understand. Now, U. G. is the most read
anti teacher. His books are not copyrighted
and he made no money from them. He lived like a vagabond.

U. G. was an atheist and said all Gurus and mystics are fake. He proved it in very simple language. It is my belief U. G. will have a greater effect then any other in helping people get away from Gurus.

His impact has been remarkable. He took nothing and gave everything.

These jnanis do not tell you what you want to hear. They will basically trash ones
high up view of their spiritual vanity.

You will bitch and rant and rave at them.
You will never understand their motivation.

It is like the tough love of a mother.

They stop you from hurting yourself.

[rao]

After reading U.G. Krishnamurthy's teachings I found nothing original in them. All U.G. Krishnamurthy teachings are modified version of Jiddu Krishnamurti teachings.

U.G. Krishnamurthy is great copy master.

U.G. Krishnamurthy has only philosophical and entertaining ideas to offer.

[Mike Williams]

U. G. Krishnamurti not original ?

I spent many years around Jiddo Krishnamurti
and read all his books.

U. G. went straight to the core of the human
dilemna. He tackled the problems head on.
In very direct language he debunked the
religious system.

It's what this world needed.

U. G. had to think, 'Are people worth helping ?' 'Do they deserve help ?'

I often ask myself these questions.

U. G. Krishnamurti's work will ring
down through the centuries.

He helped people whom did not deserve to
be helped.

He was a true jnani.

Religion has turned into a trash heap.
The public is fed up with it.

[rao]

I met neither J.K nor U.G. Krishnamurti but I find the teachings of J.K. Krishnamurti excellent.

J.K gave us excellent teachings to fix our life. I am 100% happy from his teachings.

The idea Religious and Gurus system is a business is from J.K. not from U.G. U.G expanded on this idea. All teachings about thought process are J.K original teachings. U.G. heavily borrrowed these teachings and expanded on them.

Some of J.K teachings are:

1) Do not compare yourself with others?. We always compare ourselves with others and become miserable. Now I stopped comparing with others and doing only the best that I can do.
2) We accumulate lot of information which is stored as memory (content of our consciousness). And from this memory is born thought which goes on accumulating more information. From this memory we identify ourselves as Doctor, American, rich man etc. We struggle our lives to keep this identity. Our relations with others are based on this identity or relation ship based on memory. This memory based relationship kills true love and makes us lonely.
3) We depend too much on our memory (I am a great doctor etc) or others memory (my dad promised he will give millions to me) or on a guru. All this is past or in the filed of the known. A guru may have excellent knowledge and problem solving ability but all his abilities are history or old. Always human problems are fresh and new and there is no guru who can solve our current problems. We can solve our current problems by living in the present and enquiring into the truth that can solve the problem instead of depending on a guru. According J.K. Guru is only a pointer and all the hard work has to be done by the human being.
4) J.K advocated moment to moment living and doing the best in the present. Misery is related to our memory and there is no misery for those who surrender to the present.
5) Observer is observed – If one has in his memory ’s Sexual or other problems then he sees the world suffering from these problems. Problem related to conditioned mind. In order to get out of this conditioning he should broaden his knowledge and seek the truth.

6) I can go on and on the excellent teaching of J.K.

I did not find anything useful U.G. Krishnamurti has to offer in relation to teaching. U.G. Krishnamurti is entertaining his followers by condemning gurus. Of course gurus make business but that does not mean there are no sincere gurus. A sincere gurus acts like a pointer to truth frees you from misery. We are free only in truth. Guru can be any one who gives you the right advice. A right guru can save you money and effort. So U.G. Krishnamurti is wrong by condemning all gurus. U.G. became a famous Guru by becoming an anti guru.

[Robert Searle]

Mike Williams,et al,

I know you put a critique on Rajinder Singh sometime ago onsite here which also appeared in the Radhaosoami studies site if I recall correctly. The question is this? What sense is Rajinder, or Rajji "loco poco"....apart from the claims of your original posted critique?

You can answer publicly here....or alternatively, contact me privately at one, or the other email addresses....which are..

[email protected]

or

[email protected]

Your cooperation in connection with the above would be welcomed.

[Robert Searle]

A correction I should have said poco loco, not loco poco in my last post!

[Mike Williams]

Hi Robert Searle and Rao, first Robert question.

Your question is on Rajinder. Why do
I think he is nuts ?

Well, I also consider Kirpal and Darshan nuts.
I only saw Kirpal a few times, but Darshan many
times. Sat next to him and Khanna on jets
and took scores of high quality photos
of Darshan.

Darshan would give interviews in back rooms
and I would listen. kirpal said inner experience
is the test of the real guru. yet neither Kirpal,
or Darshan, could produce first hand experience
in their initiates.

I would listen to people ask Darshan why they could
get no inner experience from him. He would say,
"I am sorry and look down."

Yet he would put his thumb on peoples' heads constantly
and pretend he was giving them something. Rajinder does
this also. There is alot of information on Kirpal in my
book Radhasoami Beas Secret History and I have been adding
new info on Kirpal.

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

Kirpal claimed he taked with Jaimal, Jesus and many
other famous Gurus on the inside. Yet, he was totally
incorrect on his history. Dead wrong time after time.
And, he knew he was wrong and lied to the public anyway.

Kirpal went down as the 'great liar'. A genuine true
blue sociopanth of first degree. One of the lowest
forms of scum to ever walk the earth. And it is easily
proven. See David Lane's book Radhasoami Tradition,
now linked on my site from the first page.

Darshan was also a great liar.An arrogant twit, with
extraordinary hate and anger off screen.

Rajinder dives a Porche, lives in a mansion, signs
books in Border's book store and was last seen signing
people up for satsang on a cruise ship.

Recently I saw one of Rajinder's flyers for a local visit
hanging on a laundymat wall. To my shock he was even
advertising to a great extent on TV. I actually saw
Rajinder's advertisment between episodes of Criminal Minds
and to my astonishment during a professional golf game !!!

Even Kirpal would have rolled over in his grave. This
is nuts.

The whole family was evil nuts.

I consider it ; and it is my belief, the group Rajinder
represents, is the most dangerous cult on the earth today.

I have seen this first hand even before Rajinder arrived
on the scene.

Complete hypocrites. Lunny tunes. The evidence is
overwhelming and simply devestating.

I will only respond to questions on this club and no other.

To Rao ; U. G. Krishnamurti was an anti Guru. Like Houdini,
he debunked the occult world. Never copyrighted his work.
Moved about living from a suitcase. Never had a scandal.
His experience in these matters made him unique.

He had both the full blown kundalini experience to the
final end ; and was jnani also. He could talk about
anything with complete competence.

An honest man.

[rao]

J.K was a non guru not an anti-guru. J.K. wanted people to understand gurus and religious leaders through his discussions.
J.K made people to realize the limitations of religion and egos of gurus. J.K. wanted people to be vigilant and intelligent in dealing with gurus and religious leaders through his discussions. J.K. never condemned any religion or a guru. J.K. made religion a science. Gurus and religious leaders passed on their blind beliefs and superstition to people.
J.K. wanted people to study religion and go beyond religion. J.K never helped people directly and wanted people to help themselves. Bruce Lee, Deepak Chopra, Osho, Psychatrists etc benefited from J.K discussions indirectly. Osho worshipped J.K.

U.G. Krishnamurti followed the teachings of Theosophical Society, J.K discussions for ten years or so. U.G. Krishnamurti got disappointed with J.K because U.G.'s son was not cured by J.K. U.G. had some enlightenment or Kundalini awakening and this boosted U.G.Krishnamurti's ego. U.G. should have thanked J.K. for his Kundalini awakening instead U.G. went on an ego trip. Why did U.G.Krishnamurti follow J.K discussions for ten years - U.G. is a liar. U.G. deserted his family for the so called selfish Kundalini awakening. Seeking to become Jnani is another selfish thing, if your wife commits suicide.

I attend a biology discussion class for ten years. The teacher takes the students to the forest or garden and asks students to learn. The teacher gives only informal learning. After ten years I produce some thing new on biology and the world recognizes it. I tell the whole world that I did it on my own and the teacher is an idiot or stupid. What does this mean?. U.G.Krishnamurti's is like me here a selfish fellow.

U.G.Krishnamurti is attracting people to the empty philosophical words like - U.G. is on a supreme plane of existence etc.
All this supreme or highest state of awareness is not useful to us. We are attracted to and worshipping U.G.Krishnamurti like Catholics worship Pope.

Jesus walked on water and raised the dead. J.K. said these miracles are to be ignored. J.K agreed with Jesus only truth will set you free not Jesus. J.K. said truth is a path less land. J.K said every one has to find out truth themselves and there is no guru there to fix all our problems. I have to understand my problems but I can take help from you or a guru. The final decision to fix my problem is mine not that of a guru.

J.K. said teacher is not important teachings are important.

Life is a journey in which we encounter numerous problems there is no guru or religion or holy book to fix these problems. We have understand our problems and fix them ourselves - yes we take help from a guru or religion or holy book. If we trust a guru or religion or holy book they will exploit us.
Becoming a Jnani or going for some enlightenment or Kundalini awakening is trying to escape from our real problems of life.

[Mike Williams]

I personally knew Jiddo Krishnamurti
for 30 years.

Always amazed at what people say about
him now that he is gone.

Jiddo was the greatest man I ever met.

Yet, I believe U. G. Krishnamurti will
surpass Jiddo.

A jnani does not try to become one.

It HAPPENS to them beyond their control.

In Indian Yoga the jnani is highest.

The theory goes, the chakras are opened
from the top down on the jnani. This is what
Ramana Maharshi said also.

The chakra of the Higher Heart Centre
is opened because the kundalini curles back
down from the top head chakra.

This top down energy is called pranahuti.

Most people don't know it exists.

[rao]

Let us make the assumption that Kundalini energy exists and I am able to awaken this energy.
What should I do with energy?. This is another way of strengthening the ego of the mind.

Politicians, Movie actors, sportsman, scientists are successful in their own way.
For all this success mind has to find a guru or teacher to acquire knowledge and work hard.
During their learning and the end of their success Politicians, Movie actors, sportsman, scientists have increased their ego and could have become miserable.
There is no success without hard work, sacrifice and misery.
Same is true with Kundalini energy awakening. I heard many went mad in their journey to awaken Kundalini energy.
So a right sincere guru becomes essential here.

The whole universe is in a state of flux and there is nothing really solid here.
Our human bodies and mind are continually changing.
To be happy we have to know the reality in what we do. This reality is continuously changing.
So we have to keep up with the change. Our mind is struggling to keep up with this change.
No enlightenment is permanent. U.G. Krishnamurti natural supreme acausal state is not permanent.
U.G. Krishnamurti became a learned man of Hindu Vedanta, Theosophy and J.K teachings.
He faked this natural supreme acausal state to gullible rich Bollywood people like Mahesh Bhatt etc.
U.G. Krishnamurti enjoyed money of Bollywood actors and in return exchanged his learned knowledge.

Spiritual guru or religious leader praises himself (plus makes money) and condemns other gurus or religious leaders.
U.G. Krishnamurti is like any other guru. U.G. Krishnamurti marketed his natural supreme acausal state.
U.G. Krishnamurti did not make money but enjoyed the money of Bollywood artists or other rich people.
U.G. Krishnamurti was fearless to tell his philosophy to inner circle who did not question his learning.
It is obvious U.G.Krishnamurti had jealousy towards other gurus. U.G.Krishnamurti was angry towards those who questioned his knowledge.
U.G. Krishnamurti is like any other human being with full of anger, jealousy etc.

We live in a world of competition and shoulder responsibility, so naturally we have anger, jealousy etc. U.G. Krishnamurti never had to face this competition or responsibility so he was a happy and free man.

We are worshipping Politicians, Movie actors, sportsman, scientists and those successful people. We never realize the misery these people have.
We look at only the positive side of life and avoid the negative side. As a fact reality or truth has both positive and negative sides.

J.K asked people to look at things totally (both positive and negative side). U.G. Krishnamurti was a negative man.

[Mike Williams]

Jiddo Krishnamurti looked upon
Gurus as a doctor looks upon
patients in an insane asylum.

He did not hate them.

He spoke gently to them.

But, debunked everything they were saying.

U. G. Krishnamurti lived out of a
suitcase, he had little money.
Spoke to the common man.

[rao]

U.G. Krishnamurti imitated living of Jiddu Krishnamurti. Hollywood artists and other rich took care of bodily needs of Jiddu Krishnamurti.
Europe and America are very expensive and no one can live there for 40 years without any employment.

Jiddu Krishnamurti asked people not to believe in him or any one - only be with the truth - truth can only save them.
U.G. Krishnamurti asked people to believe in what he says and would get upset if any one did not like his teaching.

All gurus give us theories, opinions, ideas stories, examples, historical facts etc. These cannot solve our present problems but are very interesting and entertaining. We are fascinated by Electronic gadgets ipod and modern inventions etc. The media takes our focus on sensational stories.

Gurus, Science and Media cannot solve our human relationship problems?. Every human being has to understand himself and his relationship with society and solve psychological problems. There is no one there to solve our psychological problems and fix our life.

For the above reasons Jiddu Krishnamurti debunked gurus, scientists, media etc.

Jiddu Krishnamurti said seeking for enlightenment or supreme state of consciousness etc is seeking for illusion. Understanding and removing ones’ own ego. jealousy, anxiety etc makes us free. Gurus, Science and Media cannot make us free.

Jiddu Krishnamurti stressed every human being is essentially the same (bundle of anxiety, jealousy, anger etc) but superficially different. All human beings are dependent on one another, so we should love another. Jiddu Krishnamurti said loving man (ignoring differences) is loving god. True god is pure consciousness present in mother nature, human beings, animals etc.

[Robert Searle]

I must thank Mike Williams here about Rajinder Singh, and the Kirpal lineage. How true it is quite another matter. It would need to be backed up by more than one person (apart from David Lane ofcourse).

However, I have known Secret History site for sometime which relies alot on Soamibagh material.A long while ago I seem to recall contacting Williams about the death of Dr. Johnson, and he insisted that he was murdered by someone making love to his wife, or words to that effect...a claim which incidently appeared on his site ofcourse. Anyway, he gave no reference to his source, and insisted on "his" version of events as being correct.

However, I have now noticed that he has put David Lanes more credible material on the Secret History site in connection with Dr. Johnsons demise.

What I am saying here is that Secret History needs to be taken with a large pinch of salt. I seem to recall that Williams made the claim that he was not trying to promote any RS group....even though he had a link to a Soamibagh Satsang website!!!

[Mike Williams]

Hi Robert Searle,
It was mentioned in my first draft of
Radhasoami Beas Secret History that
Dr. Johnson, author of Path of the Masters
was killed at the Dera. The original draft
stated this was the rumor clearly and noted
another rumor he was being robbed of money
and that was the reason he may have been killed in some sort of struggle.

Two possible senarios. Rumors are clearly maked so until evidence surfaces showing
actualities.Then as you have seen it is changed with verified information.

Dr. Lane and myself had both known of these rumors long ago.

What was important was Sawan could not
protect Dr. Johnson from death even at
the Dera, not really how he died.

I still believe the rumor the killer had an affair with Johnson's wife is true, even tho
she was not good looking. The book authors discussing the incident were vested parties
and there is no statute of limitatations on murder in English law.

Both sides would not want to discuss something like this on camera obviously.

Just the same I deleted it, even tho my source was a major Beas rep in the United States named Roland Devries, whom I was
initiated by long ago.

Dr. Lane may have had other sources as it was no secret.

Please give my regards to Rajinder.

Soami Bagh is linked because Maheswari
was the historian I quoted and he resided at
Soami Bagh.

This is the only group I never belonged too
and was never initiated by, although
I did talk to and correspond with Maheswari and his son long ago.

It is rather evident with my links to cult buster sites on my book web page what my feelings are about Radhasoami.

P.S.Kirpal also qoted Maheswari books in his Jaimal A Great Saint Book. He even visited Maheswari and looked at the evidence.

Would you say he is connected to Soami Bagh too ?
Or, David Lane and Dr Agam Mathur, who also quote Maheswari ?

Beas has near complete sets of Maheswari books in their library right now.

Are they connected to Soami Bagh ?

Ever wonder why Rajinder looks like the son of Satan ?

[Mike Williams]

Hi Rao,
Jiddo Krishnamurti was adopted by two
high ups in the Theosophical Society.

I know Annie Bessant and Leadbeater both
left money to him, which covered him
his life through.

His book money was put in a trust to continue the distribution.

In all the years I attended his talks, never saw a donation box and he never asked for any money. He paid for the Oak Grove
and theatre downtown Ojai and Switzerland
from his own funds.

But, he was a very simple man.

Most his people were very intelligent,
but not wealthy. He did know many movie
stars such as Charlie Chaplin, etc.

But, he liked plain simple people. Money
meant nothing to him.

99.9% of his followers were unknown people
of simple means.

Wonderful fellow both on and off camera.
Anyone could approach him.

You might say he was the living Tao.

[Robert Searle]

For Mike Williams,

I found your post interesting. I also found your comments on Kirpal Singh emotive...calling him the great liar? And as for Rajinder Singh....the son of satan? Really, you are stretching it!!!

On a certain website (not yours) Gurinder was compared with Saddam Hussein!!! It seems to me that whoever is the web writer of it maybe suffering from some sort of mental illness which can distort ones beliefs, and opinions...

Ofcourse, the "instant" inner experiences are not had by everyone at initiation. Some maybe more ready than others. Lane, and others seems to believe that if they do occur they are self-generated.

But can the experience of the subtle energies of higher conciousness be generated in the same way at Beas Satsang for instance. The Power is still there inspite of Gurinder. It is very real, and palpable. It can be felt outside the Satsang Hall at quite a distance......It is no good saying this phenomena is self-created, or due solely from the Satsangis creating an "electric atmosphere". It is NOT. It is something subtle, something more real than our physical universe can ever conceive...

To return to instant inner experiences...If I recall correctly you are the same person who claimed that for whatever reasons Thakar Singh was more able to "give" instant inner experiences to many new iniates? This maybe true, and I agree that to be able to do this does not necessarily have to mean that a Guru is perfect.

I do not see why Rajinder Singhs adverts in the past should be such a "big deal" to use the American expression? We all have to earn our doe somehow...? Admitedly, for some it does "trivialize" his status for being a Guru...like Gurinder on the karoake!!

[Mike Williams]

" I also found your comments on Kirpal Singh emotive...calling him the great liar? And as for Rajinder Singh....the son of Satan?"
quote poster

Yes, Rajinder in grandson of Satan,
Darshan son of Satan and Kirpal
Satan himself. You are correct.

Kirpal was pronounced a liar by Dr.
Agam Mathur, world renouned historian,
Dr. David Lane (up and coming local boy),
Maheswari and myself. The proof has been put forward. No one challenges it.

I did not call Gurinder Saddam Hussein,
but I do notice his business practices could only make Al Capone envious.

No one whom is doing what he is doing,
could believe in an afterlife.

The difference between Gurinder and Rajinder
is obvious. Gurinder is intelligent.

Rajinder is a simple minded fool.
His whole family was a bunch of severe
schizophrenics.

Charan was right about Kirpal.

Rajinder running adds between golf games and episodes of Criminal Minds and flyers in laundymats, signing books at Borders
is completely against what Kirpal taught.

I consider Rajinder's group the most
dangerous cult on the face of the earth.

If they meditate hard enough, what has gone into Rajinder, will come into them.

People in Rajinder's group are beyond help.

Only an exorcist can undo the damage.

[Robert Searle]

Mike Williams,

Quote.

"Kirpal was pronounced a liar by Dr.Agam Mathur, world renouned historian,Dr. David Lane (up and coming local boy),Maheswari and myself. The proof has been put forward. No one challenges it"

Can you back up your claims with direct references...or are we going to rely upon your own credibility? Is there some biodata on the net about who you are..or not?

Why on earth should signing books, and appearing on adverts be contrary to Sant Mat? You are are not making alot of sense though I agree it does seem a bit "rediculous"...

I agree though that Rajinder is probably not as bright as Gurinder. But you do not have to be very intelligent to be a "Perfect Master", or a Satsangi...

If you write a book on whatever subject you maybe called upon to help promote it. Even Brian may have done a bit of that with one, or more of his own books...and he was a Satsangi?

[Mike Williams]

"Can you back up your claims with direct references"
quote Robert S.

You have seen the references a zillion times
by the historians mentioned. These are well known events and documents.

I do not promote my book and make no money
from it. It runs by word of mouth, as Google
only represents less then 2% of the readers, even though it is on top of Radhasoami search for the last 10 years.

If I had only charged one dollar for every
individual reader, it would have already made me over one million dollars plus advertising revenue on the site.

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

[Robert Searle]

When I mean references I mean direct references (ie page references). It is very easy to quote authorities..just like that!

And how much do we really know about the Soamibagh group...How do we know how credible their own line of gurus are along with the late S.D. Maheshwari??

Apart from the Soamibagh link you should have added links of many other groups which you do not necessarily agree with...Infact, there is a whole load of them!!!

Furthermore, where is your biodata on the internet. Who is this "Mike Williams"?

I find your comments on the Kirpal lineage a bit over the top. It is not so much as to whether they are true, or not but rather the emotive language expressed which tend to distort the "Truth". This is not a very "professional" approach to writing a history of the RS.

[Mike Williams]

"Who is this "Mike Williams"?"
quote Robert S.

Mike Williams can't find his 'WHO'.
When I find my 'self', I will report
back 'biodata' to you.

The link you refer to was the direct link
to Maheswari books. I need to update it
as their books are online free now. Maheswari books were not available in
the West generally, so I linked them
so people could check the references.

All other books I quoted are available
in the USA.

Both Charan and Kirpal went To Agra to see
the historical documents. Neither of them
said they were not real, meaning
they found them genuine.

How do you know if the Agra group is or was
real group ? The Beas group has always considered Agra Gurus real. There is no debate therefore possible if you are a Beas
disciple.

Even Sawan Singh sat at the feet of Babuji Maharaj, the last Agra Guru, late in his life.

The Agra Group includes Salig Ram, the founder of the Radhasoami Faith. He
was Swami Ji's chief disciple and wrote
the entire massive books on the new Radhasoami religion.

Now, shall we discuss how to get that which
has taken possession of you and how it
can be removed ?

[tucson]

Mike Williams (or anyone).

Is it your opinion that Charan Singh was as much a fraud as Gurinder Singh? It seems he was more subtle and covert, a polite con-man if you will. He must have known he had no power, yet he may have had the faith that somehow his guru, Sawan Singh was working through him. Gurinder seems to be "in your face", brash, brazen, and unafraid of his emprire crumbling down.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Tucson,
Charan was a barrister, a lawyer.

His book, which Beas says he edited,
Spiritual Letters had the words Radhasoami deleted out of the letters many times.

And, now Beas has come out and said
these letters were not written by Jaimal
at all, but 3 people I name in my book,
which was always my claim, that these letters were fake.

I am afraid Charan went down as a deceitful
man for pulling this stunt. The Beas books
written during Charan's reign were so
crazy with their history, with so many
lies and omissions, that Charan now
is seen as a charlatan.

He was much more clever than Kirpal,
but just the same he got caught.

But, Charan was not nuts like Kirpal.

Charan was a sophisticated criminal.

Yes, Gurinder is the Willie Sutton of sant Mat.

It seems all the RS groups have gone
out of control.

Now they can easily be seen for what they
always were.

The handwritting is on the wall.

[Mike Williams]

The Devils at Manav Kendra (Kirpal's group)

................................

Exact reproduction of the secret Thakar Singh letter below, written to group leaders about Devils at their ashram.
(Thakar was a successor to Kirpal.)

CONFIDENTIAL (typed)

-------------
Handwritten notation by unknown person (Please do not tell or show to anyone)

MY MISSION IN THE WORLD

-----------------------
We have been reading the scriptures and life-sketches of the past masters and had been trying to understand their way of working in the world. They had been arranging to take out the souls out of the clutches of negative power but not disturbing the set-up of negativity. And had been keeping rules and regulations as agreed upon by God Power, that in what way the Saints and Masters will be working.

When at certain occasion the negativity becomes extra controlling, then special arrangements from God appears to check the powersand its activities. So, in addition to the work of taking out souls I am also to fight with the negativity, so that its control in the three worlds is checked up to such an extent that for long times to come, it will not be able to blind up the situation of the world from God Power. And souls will not suffer in this world in the way they are suffering now.

From the very start of my work this struggle began and I had to start the fight from the lowest standings of negativity. Simultaneously I was then raised up after I had conquered and gone through the lower set-ups of negativity to deal with the higher one. In this process the law of Karma is to be maintained that first the negative power is allowed to injure or to disturb me and do any other terrible actions upon my body, mind and intellect. Then with the help of my Master and His Powers, it was paid back in reaction. And that reacton was then really proving fatal for negativity. As for example the child of a King comes out and an ordinary person gives a beating to the child, that is also hard. But, when the Father King comes, then He manages to put the person into prison for the whole of the life or even to kill him. In this way the King has not done any illegal offense, but has kept the ruling.

Similary in this process from the very beginning I had to go through diffferent (incorrect spelling) kinds of sufferings and tortures through negativity, physically and mentally. Physically also at so many times I was given hard beatings, injuries, wounds resulting flow of blood from my body and so much pain was there in the bones for long time. But, it was only known to me and nobody could see anything on my body. And, my shoutings, cries and tears were also not to be heard or felt by anybody. During the nights it was something terrible when I was alone. Through some agencies humiliation, abusive and hard language was also used to me on very much occasions and negativity had been hovering over me 24 hours like an eagle on a rat, but the protection of my Master who was working behind the curtain and his help was there that I could survive and could go on getting stronger and stronger and conquering over different phases of negativity, step by step. The negative power also effected my mind and intellect sometimes and could use my body in a way that I get bad named and that my Mission is to suffer. But the things could be kept going along by the Grace of my master Great Master due to His wonderful and regular help behind the curtain.

This conquest of devils of different stages was not only for me, that I got rid of some devils who were hard and controlling me, but it was the general release over whole of the world from the clutches of devils. Sometimes back while I was in Manav Kendra, some special conquest was there over some devil and when I came back to Ashram after two days, it was informed by some person in the Ashram that since two days there had been much easier atmospheres in the Ashram and all the people felt much released and lifted up in meditation.

The situation as per now is very encouraging as this war is going on much better in speed of conquest. But still there is something left to be done which only my master knows and who has planned this conquest in its own ways. But now I feel that one of the hardest last phases of negativity has awakened and it has taken the most drastic step to snatch away the poor, innocent souls from me, which is unbearable for me and also for my master. Surely and necessarily this seperating agency will have to be dealt with accordingly. The last action of negativity, as it is trying to disturb the Mission itself, will really prove fatal for itself. All previous struggle was mainly going on in higher planes. But, now this struggle has also started openly in the physical plane. The results of which will be really very hard and will appear in course of time in some form which we may call catastrophe.

The abnormal delay in occurance to destruction which has been main cause of confusion to Sangat, seems also planning of God Power for some useful purpose, and may prove blessing in disguise, as all my previous sufferings and tradgedies uptill today had proved blessings in disguise. Further also, the more I suffer the better humanity will be benefitted. But I am sorry that so many of my dear ones have also been put to suffering with me under this confussion. But their devotion will bring sweet fruit for all in plenty.

All these informations I did not want to tell to anybody, but now only for the information of the dear ones it is conveyed, not openly. The action of destruction of the Mission by negative power may bring out its own destruction in this physical world and whole situation of world may be improved wonderfully. I do not feel like claiming anything. All is done by my Great Master and due to Him only, but we may wait to witness personally.

Those glorious moments are awaiting when I will rejoin my original Self in lap of my God-Master Sant Kirpal Singh Ji who is waiting to greet me in His Lap, but I am to complete my duty in this world and go back only triumphantly.

In all Love and humbleness in my Great Master Sant Kirpal Singh Ji Maharaj,

yours in service

(signed Thakar Singh)
Hand written date is either

28-5-84

or
28-5-89

Date fuzzy

Thakar letter quote end .

---------------------------

[tucson]

I was initiated by Thakar on a whim at about that time, but my allegiance was to Charan. It is astonishing to me, in my present state of mind, that I ever could have bought into any of that RS crap. Charan was slick, I'll give him that, but it appears Thakar was simply nuts. Fortunately, he didn't go on a shooting spree like the maniac only a short distance from where I live.

[Robert Searle]

"Mike Williams"

What is the twaddle about?

Now, shall we discuss how to get that which
has taken possession of you and how it
can be removed ?

Maybe the above can be applied to you? Anyway, I do not want to degnerate into ad hominen attacks which lead nowhere.

However, readers should treat the Secret History site with a pinch of salt. It does not present the whole picture though "Mike Williams" would insist otherwise..perhaps with some emotive language which can distort the "Truth".

[Mike Williams]

To Robert Searle,
You stated
"It is in connection with the respected Shabd Yoga Master Kirpal Singh" and then gave
a link to Kirpal's Coded Diaries on Oct. 25, 2010.

In my book, I use some of this material to show Kirpal was schizophrenic. His history was wrong,
so his inner Masters were wrong.

[Robert Searle]

Mike Williams,

Maybe Kirpal Singh was probably not telling fibs but may well have genuinely believed in certain "delusions". Maybe it was a way in which the Divine through him wanted to test the faith of his disciples, and/or wanted to make certain "minor" changes in Sant Mat itself.

Just because something may waddle, and quack like a duck does not necessarily have to mean that it is a duck? This is especially true in connection with masters, and mysticism in general.

So, I think your understanding is like many people here TOO SIMPLISTIC. I think Faqir Chand probably came closest to a large chunk of the Truth.

[Mike Williams]

Quote Robert Searle
"Maybe Kirpal Singh may well have genuinely believed in certain "delusions".

That's it exactly. The historical proof
is overwhelming that these inner Masters
including Buddha, Jesus and Jaimal, etc,
that spoke to Kirpal inside, were incorrect
when they spoke to Kirpal.

Meaning these inner Masters weren't real.

I beleieve that's why Rajinder does not
want the Coded Diaries of Kirpal to
be formally published.

Kirpal said the Master was greater than God
in his Godman book.

Yet, these inner Masters were making horrible mistakes in what they were telling him.

The inner planes are a delusion of the mind.
Chand said this and now even Gurinder is saying it.

But, if we can't trust the advice of the inner Master as Kirpal found out, why bother to
go 'iniside' ?

I have seen these so called inner Masters give
bad advice in almost every group and people get seriously hurt.

[Robert Searle]

Mike Williams,

I agree to a certain extent ofcourse but things are never always black, or white...especially in this area of human understanding.

So far, I have no evidence that Kirpals encounters with other "Masters" in the coded material "...were making horrible mistakes.." Where is your reference data, and how credible is the source of it? I would love to know...

Yes, Chand did make similiar claims about "inner Masters."

[Mike Williams]

Kirpal said the current Radhasoami Faith
can trace back to the Sikh gurus via
Ratnagar Rao. This was proven impossible
by Historian Prof. Dr. Agam Mathur in
his book. Kirpal tells of Salig Ram and Radhaji placing a turban on Jaimal's head
and seating him on the gaddi !!!!!!

The fact is Salig Ram had thrown Jaimal out of his satsang for posing as a guru and his
affair with little girls. Jaimal had a house down the street from Salig Ram for a time.

Misra did the same thing when Jaimal showed
up at his satsangs. Misra evicted him.

Chachaji and Sudarshan were in the process
of excommunicating Jaimal just 3 days before he died. These Council records exist
to this day.

The Council even had chastised Jaimal for posing as a Guru officially. The president
was Chachaji, Swami Ji's brother, considered a Saint by Beas.

These are only a couple of examples, but there are many in Radhasoami Tradition, David Lane, linked off my website.

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

Kirpal manufactured fake incidences, or
was told by these inner masters, things that
never happened.

And, were lies. He got caught.

The historicsl documentation is overwhelming.

The Founder of Radhasoami Faith,
Salig Ram, threw Jaimal
out of his satsang for posing as a Guru, as did Salig Ram's successor Misra.

Yet, Kirpal has Salig Ram seating him on his gaddi !!!!! And, Radhaji calling Jaimal
the Lord of Sat Lok, when she is considered equal to Salig Ram in spirirtual status.

Absolutely nuts.

[V.Mohan from Bangalore]

Hi
I am V.Mohan, from Bangalore. I was knowing U.G.since 17 years. I meet him peronally at Bangalore every time he visted Bangalore. I had a very good discussion with him in all matters relating to religious matters. I have a very strong feeling that he is most genuine person that I have every meet in my life. I have meet many many so called enlightend human beings, but among all of them U.G.is the best. He tops in the list. Many Many of my doubts are well cleared by U.G. While reading U.G. you have to read in between lines and his ultimate intentions to blast every thing that is put before him. I any one is interested to know about him and his teacing, I am readly availble to talk to him.

[Robert Searle]

Mike Williams,

I am already aware of the claims made in
the frst part of your communication. My concern is the following.

Kirpal manufactured fake incidences, or
was told by these inner masters, things that
never happened.

And, were lies. He got caught.

The historicsl documentation is overwhelming

Where is the evidence for the above..rather than hearsay? If you cannot cite your source(s), and ideally the page numbers why should it be taken seriously?

I am not saying whether the above Kirpals claims are true, or false because I do not know at present. I want to know, and I am trying to press you for authorative answer(s) backed by evidence.

Ofcourse, there is here the old libel about Jaimal Singh, and the young girls. How on earth can we be certain that he he had inappropriate relations with them? Did any of them complain...are there any court records, or any other credible material apart from S.D. Maheshwari ofcourse...?

Maybe it was a test of faith. It may well be that Jaimal Singh did not have inappropriate relations with them. Why not? Why do we have to see things at our level all the time.

Even if someone saw him doing anything improper how do we know it was not an engineered riddhi, or magical illusion to influence, and bamboozle the witness? This point would be too much for sceptics to take on board ofcourse.

[Mike Williams]

Hi MOHAN,

You are a very smart fellow.
A VERY SMART FELLOW
U. G. Link below for his free books.
They are absolutely must reading.

http://www.well.com/user/jct/

U. G. started off early in life when many
Gurus would visit his father. He complained about what the Gurus said and then did in back rooms.

U. G. had the full kundalini experience,
then turned and debunked it as all physical organs.

But, he was also a jnani. An enlightened one.

His experience with many Gurus made him
the greatest yoga debunker I have ever seen.

He did not want to be in the position he
was in. He did it for the good of humanity.

[Mike Williams]

Question for MOHAN
"Your constant utilization of thought to give continuity to your separate self is 'you'. There is nothing there inside you other than that."
quote U. G. Krishnamurti

Was U. G. Krishnamurti's outlook
that there is no life after death for us ?
Is the scenario as bad as many of us expect ?

[Robert Searle]

Mike Williams,

I would be grateful for your answer as to the source of your claims in connection with the inner masters in the coded diary.To quote once more..

Kirpal manufactured fake incidences, or
was told by these inner masters, things that
never happened.

And, were lies. He got caught.

The historicsl documentation is overwhelming

I should repeat here I am not referring to anything else other than the specific inner masters in the coded diary(as discussed to a limited extent by Arran Stephens in his book, the Mouth, and the Flame).

[Mike Williams]

Take a book like Kirpal Singh's 'Baba Jaimal Singh, A Great Saint', page 44. Kirpal says, " Jaimal Singh was making speedy inner headway...once he told Swami Ji of his ready access to Dasam Dwar." Then Kirpal notes a conversation between Swami Ji and Jaimal on Jaimal's inner progress . This whole story by Kirpal is made up off the top of his head and all other meetings and conversations between Swami Ji and Jaimal . They are completely unreferenced as to source .
..........................
Sounds incredible, but there is nothing in history anywhere to show Jaimal ever met Swami Ji face to face, not alone ever talked to him. None of Swami Ji's family ever mentions Jaimal meeting Swami Ji. To make matters worse, other historians quote Kirpal as if all these meetings and conversations are true. Anything you ever read or hear about Jaimal meeting Swami Ji seem completely manufactured by vested parties .
..........................
Also, Kirpal manufactures conversations between Jaimal, Chachaji, Radhaji and Salig Ram. Kirpal tells how much Radhaji, Chachaji and Salig Ram respect Jaimal and heap praises on him. Radhaji in these conversations gives Jaimal Swami Ji's red turban and prayer mat after she and Chachaji acknowledge Jaimal's greatness. Kirpal has Radhaji calling Jaimal "The Lord of Sat Lok". It's interesting Kirpal quotes Radhaji as saying Swami Ji left the turban for Jaimal before he died. But, Kirpal notes this conversation as talking place in 1890. This means Jaimal had not been to Soami Bagh, Agra in 12 years. Kirpal definitely infers this. Swami Ji died in 1878. Sure took Radhaji a hell of a long time to give the turban to Jaimal!
..............
Kirpal has Chachaji actually asking Jaimal to sit on a gaddi ! See page 59 Kirpal's Jaimal book,1973 edition. Then Chachaji, Gharib Das (blind helpless sadhu) and Jaimal take off to see Salig Ram in Peepal Mandi, whom hands Jaimal a robe in honor of his greatness, verifying his exalted status by words and asking Jaimal onto his gaddi ! Of course Radhaji (who is not shown as a member of this 1890 trip) magically appears from nowhere at Pipal Mandi at this exact moment to force Jaimal to take the robe from Salig Ram, because he is too humble! But, Kirpal is fully aware Jaimal was thrown out of both Salig Ram's and Misra's satsang for posing as a guru. Kirpal verifies Maheswari's claims about Jaimal's being disliked by other Swami Ji and Salig Ram disciples on page 61 of his book as "(Jaimal on Agra trip to Council) finding himself no longer well received and his words of no avail...returned to Beas." Kirpal is fully aware Chachaji was later to officially call Jaimal to task in Council for posing as a guru. The proof being Kirpal references specifically in footnotes the exact Maheswari books this negative information is contained in with his Jaimal, A Great Saint book ! So, Kirpal knew these conversations were highly implausible, if not absolutely impossible. The question becomes if Kirpal knew all these historical facts about Jaimal, why he didn't tell people in his book? Could it be because if you knew the full history he had omitted, you would know what he was saying could not have happened ?
................
Kirpal in Jaimal Great Saint book, page 60, reproduces the letter from Chachaji to Jaimal asking his endorsement for the Council members. Kirpal says Jaimal was nominated as 7th on ballot, but decided to remain aloof from the Council due to disagreement on the building of Swami Ji's samadh. But, we know Sawan worshiped at Swami Ji's samadh with his disciples in ritual. So, we see Kirpal produce another so called reason for Jaimal to act as he did. But, Kirpal fails to mention Jaimal wanted three seats on Council and was indeed given permission to initiate after the Council started. Kirpal fails to mention Chachaji and Council chastised Jaimal for posing as a guru and later brought excommunication proceedings. Sawan actually initiated for the Council gurus also, thereby accepting them as sant sat gurus. Why has Kirpal seen fit to exclude this part of Beas history ? Could it be Sawan was bowing at the feet of the Council gurus?
...................
These fictionalized conversations in Jaimal's life by Kirpal, were written in his book as if they actually occurred! Therefore, Kirpal's book, Jaimal, A Great Saint, seems a remarkable embarrassment to Kirpal's legacy and possibly the most extraordinary guru propaganda book ever written. Could these phantasmagorical conversations Kirpal manufactured in his book also show a delusional core basis, for the notion in his own mind, that he was a godlike Saint having reached Sach Kand ?
......................
Kirpal also tried to tie his lineage back to the last Sikh guru Govind and was proven wrong. Kirpal evidently could not read the Akashic records. Kirpal lists no source for conversations between Swami Ji and Jaimal, nor with Chachaji and Radhaji in his book. There is absolutely nothing verifying these conversations ever took place, or of these meetings in history. So how did Kirpal come up with these quotes involving these people in these conversations ? Why doesn't Kirpal show anything historical that Swami Ji ever knew Jaimal, or that someone ever saw Jaimal in Swami Ji's satsang ? With 10,000 people in Swami Ji's satsang, someone must have seen him. But, who ???? And, if any evidence existed, it would have shown up in the last 100 years. Kirpal cannot give reference, because none exist. Kirpal's Jaimal book seems an attempt to counteract Maheswari's devestating history books, which shortly preceded it. It is as if Kirpal is telling Maheswari to back off, that his disciples will believe any crap he tells them. Power politics.
................
Hence, there is no question in this writers mind Kirpal may have done great injustice to history. Kirpal's book, 'Jaimal, A Great Saint', seems to be the most astonishing piece of fabricated fiction since the story of Santa Claus. This book, I believe, may reek havoc on the true history of Beas for generations. I have extremely severe questions both regarding the integrity, and or sanity of Kirpal, for writing it.
....................................
KIRPAL GOT HIS INFO ON JAIMAL FROM THE INNER PLANES

http://www.arranstephens.com/book/54-InnerQuestions.pdf

Note that the encoded manuscripts of Kirpal contain information on his discussions with dead gurus ON THE INNER PLANES.

The end of chapter 55: "Photocopies of sample pages from the coded Diaries, describing glimpses of his meetings and conversations with the great Masters of the Past: here, Guru Nanak, Kabir and Jesus Christ. Other portions describe meetings with Buddha, Zoroaster, Guru Gobind Singh, Baba Jaimal Singh, Rumi, and others. The side notes in English are also in the Master's hand"

Addressing Baba Ji [Jaimal Singh], I [Kirpal Singh] asked Him [on an inner plane], `In this world, where illusion reigns supreme, there are many clever people posing as Masters, Sants, Satgurus, Mahatmas and Faqirs, who deceive innocent seekers, claiming access to higher regions, or that they have realized God. Preying on the susceptibilities and naiveté of seekers after truth, they imitate saintly behavior and quote the scriptures. How may one determine the actual stages they claim to have attained?'

Baba Ji replied: `The following questions should be put to any Sadhu, Sant, Faqir, or Master when the need arises, to determine the extent of their inner ascent. Outer appearances and saintly behavior can be imitated to some extent, but only one who has traversed all the inner regions, who is fully conversant with every secret, will be able to answer all these questions correctly.

'
It should be noted Salig Ram published a book on the internal planes. This book is for Agra initiates only. Beas once printed some of it. When Beas was informed it was copied from Salig Ram's book, they removed it from the market.

Kirpal also claimed he wrote the book Gurmat Siddhant. Since the original book was written in 1919 by Sawan Singh and was before Kirpal was even on the scene, Kirpal's claim was unfounded. Beas denies Kirpal wrote this book and they are correct.

The question has come up, since Kirpal's history was so far off the mark, if his inner experiences were real, or possibly schizophrenia. Where did he get so much crazy stuff ?

http://www.arranstephens.com/book/68-KirpalsWill.pdf

"Because the first will was `lost' by Tai Ji, on August 3, 1974, just eighteen days before Master Kirpal passed away, he got blank papers from Mela Ram and wrote out the will again, in the absence of Tai Ji. As Darshan Singh was not there, Mela Ram entrusted the written papers to Murari Lal for safekeeping. Murari Lal was a trusted business associate of Tai Ji. After the death of the Beloved Master, Murari Lal left Sawan Ashram and returned to his home in Jaipur. There he had a photocopy made of the will. After two months, he sent a man with that copy to Sant Darshan Singh, demanding 100,000 rupees for the original. This copy was shown, not given. Master Darshan Singh said he could not and would not pay such a sum. That man then went to Malik Radha Krishna Khanna, who also declined to pay the sum. The man went away."

Photocopy Kirpal's will to Darshan Singh shown

Kirpal Singh had stated the master did not leave successor's via will. This sham was used because Sawan had excluded him in his registered wills. Three days before Kirpal died he said on tape, he had left a will naming his successor. Everyone was shocked. Remember Swami Ji left a will also. The original will upon Kirpal's death was missing. It has been claimed, but not verified, a man whom had the Kirpal's original will tried to extort Darshan Singh for 100,000 rupes. Darshan refused. Later on, a copy of the will was found in Kirpal's own handwriting. It named Darshan as successor to everyones astonishment.

Kirpal, on the introductory page of His Jaimal book quotes a Sar Bachan Prose verse which says "The music streams from a transcendent plane within and is caught by a soldier Saint." The Indian army at that time was loaded with Sikhs, not to mention the last Sikh guru Govind Singh, had his own army, and was probably the one this verse applied too. But, when your grasping for straws, any straw will do.
....................................
Sawan Singh was to write two extensive wills . Sawan first transferred properties to Jagat Singh in the first will and then guruship in the second will to Jagat. The first will named Kirpal as caretaker of visitors. It has been reported, but not verified, Jagat's wife jumped off the satsang Ghar in an attempted unsuccessful suicide. Jagat's son later did succeed in suicide if the report is true. At any rate, Kirpal claims Sawan somewhat secretly passed guruship to him as he lay dying, despite massive evidence the wills of Sawan were completely legitimate. Later, Kirpal was to leave a will to his son Darshan, despite reportedly saying for years guruship could not transferred by wills. It has also been reported Kirpal said no one in his family would succeed him. That Sawan would write massive wills, then pass guruship to Kirpal secretly, is rather comical and indeed absurd. Note, Jaimal claimed similar, despite Swami Ji's will and that is equally absurb. Especially since Beas records the will in their version of Sar Bachan.
................

[Mike Williams]

Below refs., R.S. Correspondence with Americans, S. D. Maheswari,Vol.1,1960,p.253-256, and Vol. 2, p. 278, 1962
..............
Quote
1.He ( Jaimal ) offered Bhet for building a house in Soami Bagh,
2.CAME TO THE SATSANG OF HAZUR MAHARAJ ( Salig Ram), and
3. EVEN ON BEING TURNED OUT, HE AGAIN APPEARED IN THE SATSANG of MAHARAJ SAHEB ( MISRA). ....When reprimanded for doing unbecoming acts, he would even beg pardon and PROMISE NOT TO POSE AS A GURU..."
end quote
.........................................
Extracts from the Council Dec. 25, 1902, 3:00 P.M.
( regarding Jaimal ) Resolution #16
" In accordance with bye-law No. 16, the undermentioned Satsangis were accorded general permission to initiate :
(3 people including Jaimal Singh listed.) Signed Chachaji and Baleshwar Prasad.
..............................
Extracts from the Council June 12, 1903 6:00 P.M. :
(Resolution shows complaints against Jaimal for posing as a guru)
" After inquiry, it transpired that Baba Jaimal Singh DID NOT CONSIDER HIMSELF TO BE A SANT AND THAT HE HAD NO OBJECTION TO THE ENTRY OF HIS NAME IN THE REGISTER OF SATSANGIS ".
(direct entry of Council )
signed BRAHAM SHANKAR MISRA . ( 3rd sat guru )
signed by secretary also.
...................................
Now the remarkable entry by Council just three days before Jaimal died !!! Introduced by Sudarshan Singh ( Chachaji's youngest son ).
Extract Dec. 26, 1903, 3:00 P.M. Resolution #4 : (regarding certain complaints against Baba Jaimal Singh for posing as a guru and not sending in names of initiates ) direct entry Council log
"...a strong warning should be administered to him ( Jaimal ) through Chachaji Saheb by means of registered , acknowledgment due, letter and that in case of failure to comply with it, necessary action may be taken."
UNANIMOUSLY APPROVED, signed , PRATAP SINGH SETH ( Chachaji ) PRESIDENT . signed secretary.
..............................
Actual photostats of original signatures from original documents shown in Corr. Vol 1 by Agra.
..............................
These original Council documents exist to this day, no one disputes them . Dr. Agam Mathur also confirms liscence cancellation of Jaimal in his book Radhasoami Faith. Court depositions during Dayal Bagh case show Adjohia (Salig Ram's son) and Sudarshan confirmed excommunication proceedings.
...........
----------
Correspomdence With American's, Vol 2, page 276, #5, 1962, Maheswari

Extracts from the Deposition of Lala Adjodhia Prashad (Salig Ram's son and leader of Pipal Mandi group, after Salig Ram's death, now age 60), recorded on the 13th June 1926, and onwards, in the suit against Dayal Bagh, which ultimately went to Privy Councl, in England, where the case was decided in favor of Soami Bagh. Recorded under oath

Adjodhia states, " I am the President of Central Administrative Council, which has its head-office in Allahabad. I have been the president since the death of Rai Pratap Singh Seth (Chachaji), that is probably since 1910. Before that I was Vice President. The Councl was formed in 1902 (page 249 Privy Council Paper Book).

The 28 names selected for being mentioned in the notice issued for formation of the Council included the name of Jaimal Singh. The name Jaimal Singh was included because HE HAD AGREED THAT HE WOULD GIVE UP ACTING AS GURU and abode by the order of the Council that would be formed and also because Chachaji Sahib (Pratap) had recommended him. He gave that undertaking before the notice had been issued. For this reason he was given general power of initiation in the very first meeting of the Council. BUT, HE DID NOT STICK TO HIS UNDERTAKING AND THE SAID GENERAL POWER OF INITIATION WAS CANCELLED.

(Pages 267-268, PRIVY COUNCIL PAPER BOOK. end Ajodhia quote under oath

Correspomdence With American's, Vol 2, page 276, 1962, Maheswari Maheswari states, "Baba Jaimal Singh agreeing to the stipulation that he would give up acting as a guru and abide by the order of the Council, meant that Jaimal would initiate persons into radhasoami Nam, and not Sat Nam." end Maheswari Quote
----------
No one knows if Jaimal was initiated by Swami Ji oddly enough. Correspomdence With American's, Vol 2, page 260, 1962, Maheswari #62 Maheswari asks, "When, ie., in what year did Baba Jaimal Singh receive initiation from Swami Ji Maharaj ? Give proof in support of your answer." end quote
----------
----------
Chahaji Pratap states in Biography of Soami Ji Maharaj, page 27, 1978, Agra, (1902 original), "One must have a perfect Guru, I.E., the Sat Guru. Hereditary or family gurus would not do. The Nam must be true, perfect, real and highest of all. One must be initiated in the secrets of that Nam and Anami. Conventional names would not be of any help. One must have a true satsang. ...external satsang is having the Darshan of a true and perfect Sant or Sadh, who is the representative of Sat Parush." The Nam of Chachaji was RADHASOAMI. He did not believe Jaimal a true Sat Guru.
----------
Sawan's 1932 visit to Sudarshan recorded as "Two Real Saints Meet";
With a Great Master in India, Beas, 1982,p.65 ;
"This disciple was quite accustomed to seeing thousands bow at the feet of our Master (Sawan), but never before had he witnessed the Master (Sawan) bowing at the feet of another (Sudarshan)....in that beautiful moment when he bowed at the feet of another Saint."
............
Sawan was bowing at the feet of Sudarshan, who did not consider Sawan's initiations ligitimate , nor Sawan a sat guru and had introduced the resolution of excommuniction against Jaimal in Council.

[Scott]

All this reminds me of a talk by Joseph Campbell on some ancient culture that had a rite of initiation for their young men. The initiation process was meant to "kill" the boy so that the "man" could be born.. The rite had a series of horrifying experiences for the boy so that it would have a profound impression on his psyche. At the end of this one particular culture's rite there was a bowl of water that the boy was to look into and see the reflection of, to his astonishment, the face of an old man. This of course makes him realize he will be old one day and humbles him to the fact it is out of his control.. among many other life lessons.
... What would have happened if the truth of the initiations leaked out to the younger boys... what if they were told "ok, you're gonnna see a bowl of water and you're gonna think you see yourself as an old man.. but there's really a mask of an old man behind you that is being reflected." What if all the "supernatural" experiences were deconstructed and analyzed and found to be bullshit? What if you destroy all dogmas and all mythological constructs?
My point is "God" uses bullshit to wake us up. It happens at different stages of our development and so-called Masters and gurus know this and utilize it.
Hell, learning that Santa wasn't real sure sucked when I was a kid.. but I was filled with awe and joy when I was a Santa believer.. why do we want to deconstruct and deduce life to nothing?
Carl Jung said what is happening inside you.. you're dreams, your mystical experiences even (Kirpal's audience with Jesus, Kabir, etc..) is more REAL than the world outside you...
This can go on and on.. and Joseph Campbell and others have done a much better job than I could hope to in expressing this idea..

Salvation, enlightenment or whatever.. cannot be dependent on a correct assessment of historical or informative personal data on a guru or leader... Jesus saves whether he was a real historical figure or not. Jimmy Swaggart changed lives... and Santa sure made Christmas a hell of fun compared to wishing you didn't have to be around relatives.

"Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

[Robert Searle]

One another point. Reference to the material from Heaven on Earth. There is if I recall correctly some direct speech in connection with Jaimal Singh ("taken" from living witness accounts at around the beginning of the last century)...but how could this have been remembered? Apparently, I was told by Mrs. Wood that "simple" Indians had very good memories!!

[Mike Williams]

Hi Robert Searle,
I believe you are refering to Bibbi Rukko,
Jaimal's aide.

She, sometime Swami Ji died, went with another fake master as Maheswari pointed out. That master died and then she went to Jainal.
The master's name is mentioned in my book.

She is also famous for clubbing another satsangi
over the head at the Dera.

Charan edited this out of the Jaimal letters
in Spiritual letters as Maheswari pointed out
and what he deleted is in my book.

The eye witness stated Jaimal told his satsangis
to go to Chachaji after his death. David Lane has a copy. The eye witness letter was found in his possessions after he died.

Beas used to have this in their books, but recently deleted it.

Sawan did go to Chachaji and was forced to
take over administration at the Dera against his will.

Beas books state Sawan told Chachaji he was "inept and powerless" and to send someone else.

But, Sawan conceded.

There is no record of anyone seeing Jaimal in
Swami Ji's satsang. No one in Swami Ji's family
ever mentions it.

Kirpal stated, using the muster out sheet
of Jaimal's army enlistment that Jaimal could have at most been to a Swami Ji satsang 2 or three time.

Jaimal's unit was 600 miles away from Agra..

[Trey]

Mike Williams,

As far as you know is there ANY Radha Soami master/guru whose authenticity is not questioned or who has no controversial aspects of their life or tenure? Which ones are most likely to be the real deal in your opinion?

Personally, I don't think there is such a thing as RS thinks a guru to be.

[Robert Searle]

Mike Williams,

There appers to be a missing post here which does not seem to got through, or else deleted by Brian Hines for some reason.

I know most of the points on your Secret History of website. This old stuff...My original question was very specific...

DO YOU HAVE ANY NEGATIVE INFORMATION CONCERNING KIRPALS CODED DIARY?

I was NOT referring to the other "delusions" of Kirpal Singh(eg. his Jaimal book).

However, I think it wise to warn readers here to take your website with a pinch of salt.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Trey,
I am a diehard atheist desperately in search of God.

So, I don't believe in any religion.

And, I have been initiated and belonged to
more yoga groups then seems humanly possible.

I spent my life in persuit of the Perfect Master.

Read many thousands of books.

The Agra lineage had no scandals. Salig Ram
was quite a remarkable person whom boomed
Radhasoami with his new religion.

Very interesting person.

The Agra group used their own private money
to fund Radhasoami and were often in debt.

Far cry from what the Gurus do now days.

They donated their own land and possessions.

The Original Agra group definitely believed
in what they are doing. Not like the RS Groups now, where there is not a Guru whom does not know
he is fake.

The Radhasoami faith was actually quite beautiful when it began. Dedicated people.

But, fake Gurus were all over the place and
Chachaji could not stop them. Jaimal was just
one of many recorded fakes of the day whom
followed Salig Ram's new religion.

The Agra group had the only true lineage
and even Beas admits all their Gurus were real.

What stikes me funny in the Beas satsang, there is no picture of Salig Ram, the Master of and founder of their Faith.

This is like having a Christian Chruch with no picture of Christ in it.

Beas tried to tie itself directly to Swami Ji
and bypass Salig Ram for legal reasons, as
Sawan broke from the Agra group around 1915.

Jiddo Krishnamurti came the closest to being a perfect Master I ever saw.

Yet, he denounced religion and masters as a hoax. He renounced the Saviour title that
had been placed on him.

If the 'self' does not exist, how can religion ?

Without a self, there can be no ssuch thing as a master.

[Blogger Brian]

Robert, I'm almost 100% sure that I've published all of your comments. I looked back in the comment file and didn't see any that weren't published (aside from some spam). So I suspect the reason for a comment not showing up lies elsewhere.

[Trey]

Mike Williams,

On your geneology chart at RS Beas Secret History it appears that Soami Ji (Seth Shiv Dayal Singh) is ahead of Rai Salig Ram, yet you say Salig Ram is the founder of the RS religion. So I am a little confused.

I have a cool old picture with a lot of the old hot shots in it. They are all standing around Soami Ji fanning him, etc. The picture has Rai Salig Ram, ChaCha Ji and a bunch of other notables of the faith dressed in the unique garb of the time looking very serious.

One source says Bibi Rukko and others used to suck the toes of Soami Ji. I guess this was a custom back then and not considered perverted. It comes off as pretty weird to me, if true. Just exactly why does a saint from the highest spiritual region think it's OK for devotees to suck his toes? Good for becoming humble? Or was he jerking off under his robes?

At the height of my devotion to Charan Singh there is no way I would have sucked his toes. Had he offered them to me I would have been outa there like the roadrunner in the cartoons. I would not have viewed it as a test. The Creep-o-meter would have been ringing in my head. But this is hypothetical. Does anyone know if these toe-sucking stories are true?

As it was, it took me a long time to figure out this religion was not working for me. I could not buy into it any longer. I bid farewell a long time ago.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Trey,
It's funny you mentioned I put
Swami ji in front of Salig Ram
in the Agra lineage.

When I wrote the book, I debated
starting the Radhasoami Faith
with Salig Ram, which of course
is correct.

But, I decided against it as
Swami ji and Salig Ram had a
complicated relationship.

According to history, when Salig Ram
reported to Swami Ji his knowledge of
the three higher planes above Sat Lok,
Swami Ji replied he knew of them.

Salig Ram asked permission to
begin the new Radhasoami Faith
to Swami ji, whom gave him permission.

And, of course in Swami Ji's will, or last
commandments, he told Salig Ram to continue
his new Faith.

Chachaji and Sudarshan adopted the new
religion and the old Sikh religion
was dropped. Yet, they remained similar.

The problem with Bibbi Rukko was she followed
a fake master after the death of Swami Ji,
whom I name in my book.

This master died and she went to Jaimal,
another fake master.

Charan deleted that she clubbed a satsangi
over the head in Spiritual Letters from the
so called Jaimal letters.

I am familiar with the photos you mention
and have all the Agra books.

I even had an original copy
of Radhasoami Mat Prakesh by Salig Ram
before his death, but I sent it to
professor Dr. Agam Mathur at Peepal Mundi.

I was also initiated by Dr. Mathur, besides
Beas and Kirpal groups. So, I am very familiar
with all the groups from the inside.

I didn't get initiated by the Dayal Bagh Guru,
Dr. Lal, because he admitted he was not a master.
This is a spurious fake group also.
Basically 99.9% of Dayal Bagh initiates
are Indian.

This group is a worse fake than Beas.

If Bibbi Rukko had been with Swami Ji and
been associated with his family, why would she have
gone with Jaimal, whom Swami Ji's family formally
condemed and chastised for posing as a Guru
and tried to excommunicate ?

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.htmlThe Beas history is so messed up, they might as
well throw all their historically related
books away. In fact, they should throw away
their theology books also.

It is being reported Gurinder does not disagree
with my book, as he fields alot of questions
about it. He simply states Beas has a different viewpoint.

Gurinder is smarter than people realize.

Some very long posts with documentation about
Jaimal and Kirpal were posted a couple days ago on this link if anyone missed them.

The strange thing about early Radhasoami Faith
was the Gurus believed they were Gurus (Agra).
They donated their personal funds and land
to help to the sangat.

Now days the Gurus know they are fake and steal the satsangis land.

[Trey]

Mike,

Very complicated, this RS history stuff.

If the old Agra masters really believed they were masters, were they?

I don't think U.G. would think they were masters or they would not have taught what they taught or thought they were masters.

Me. I don't know much. I'm beginning to think humans are crazy.

You didn't say anything about the toe sucking. Have you heard those stories?

[Mike Williams]

Hi Trey

Yeah, I heard about the toe sucking.
But, have not seen anything verifing it.

Were the old Agra Master's actually
masters ?

Pragmatically, I have to say
I don't know, because they no longer exist,
although they npw claim the Master has returned to Agra.

I can say with confidence the Agra group
was the only ligitimate RS group.

Not Beas, not Dayal Bagh, etc.

Ironically these Agra masters and Agra group have a sterling record. No scandals
to report.

This is what is so strange. The only RS group that has actually existed, Agra,
lived up to its own teachings.

Of course I don't believe in masters, so
I have to say, no, masters don't exist.
But, this is only my opinion.

[Robert Searle]

Mike Williams,

One of the books ofcourse not found on the Soamibagh site dealing with their Online Publications is ofcourse Jugat Prakash...which is meant to be for iniates only. It used to be on sale as a paper book. Presumably only bona fide Soamibagh Satsangis could buy it? Is there an English edition of it? Moreover, I assume it offers some "new" information about inner experiences in Shabd Yoga? A bit like Kirpals
coded diary!

[Mike Williams]

Hi Robert,
That's correct, Jugat Prakesh is meant for
initiates only.

There is no new information by either
Salig Ram , or Kirpal, oddly enough.

Surat Shabda yoga is an ancient yoga.
It is a branch of kundalini yoga.
The shabda is kundalini.

Salig ram was a very famous man in his time whom attracted the masses. Even the Viceroy
visited him. He was the Postamaster General
of Uttar Pradesh and also and helped begin Agra College.

Salig Ram was not the first to reach
Radhasomi Pad.

Surat Shabda yoga is a very complicated
yoga involving 4 to 7 initiations,
depending what group you are with.

The chakras have their sounds.

For example when I was initiated by Prof. Dr. Agam Mathur, Guru at Peepal Mundi, great
grandson of Salig Ram, he gave me the higher
chakras on the head, with discriptions of sounds and sights.

Beas does not relate this. Radhasoami only
gives the first initiation of 7 possible
in surat shabda.

For example, Yogananda's group gives
4 initiations and goes to Sat Lok.
The radiant form is also seen.

But, Radhasoami people are very uneducated
in surat shabda yoga, which again is extremely complex when fully learned.

Radhasoami people would be shocked.

Radhasoami is not the highest yoga.

Pranahuti yoga is; and the master in this
is a rare bird indeed. I could only find
one to get initiated by in 1982 after a long search.

It brings down a higher force from above
and opens the chakras from top down.
You are told to ignore the sounds and sights
as distractions.

But, the highest chakra is in the chest, near the lower heart center. It is called
the higher heart center. The kundalini
moves through the highest head center
and then curls back down to the Higher
Heart Centre.

This is why surat shabda yoga people can
not become so called enlightened.

Like Faquir Chand, they end up asking Who Am I.

Pranahuti is more than sight and sound.
It is a journey of Higher Feelings as one
becomes'THAT'. Not experience THAT, but becomes That at each region.

Pranahuti goes beyond Radhasoami Pad.

The inner regions don't exist as real
places, they are just illusions.

A fully realized suart shabda master
sees no internal planes anymore.
They go away and normal consciousness
returns.

They don't end up in Sach kand, or any internal plane inside.

Again Salig Ram was not the first to teach this yoga.

But, since Radhasoami people don't know
any other masters, they assume Salig Ram invented it.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Robert,
About the toe sucking of Swami Ji you mentioned.

People don't know it but Swami Ji's disciples ate his excrement and drank his urine and mixed his ashes at death and drank it. I mentioned this some years ago
but no one believed me.

The life force was thought to come out
of the feet, so they may have sucked his toes, but I cannot confirm this.

As I mentioned about ten years ago, my research shows the Radhasoami Faith tracks to gurus in Brindaban India past Tulsi.
I believe I tracked Yogananda's group back to Brindaban India also.

But, I didn't write this down and have forgotten about it. But, I did mention
Swami Ji's brothers name was Brindraban
and he acted as a Guru with Swami Ji's permission, but died before Swami Ji.

[David]

Mike Williams,

How do you go about awakening kundalini and experiencing the chakras? Is it just relaxing and concentrating on their "location"? And is kundalini related to celibacy?

[Robert Searle]

Mike Williams

Yes, I am well aware of the Kundalini connection. However, in Sant Mat it is claimed that it is not used in any traditional sense, and is regarded as "dangerous".

Yes, I have also heard similiar claims of extreme "devotion", or "obssession" with Swamiji, and other gurus (eg.Babuji Maharaj) comes to mind..

I was interested in your initiation with Agam Prasad Mathur. I believe you knew Maheshwari. It would be interesting to know how you came across the last mentioned individual.

If you can give a detailed autobiographical story about your experiences with the RS Faith I think it would give you greater credibility.

[Robert Searle]

Mike Williams,

I should point out it was actually not me who raised the toe sucking claim. And incidently, how can we really know there were no scandals from the Agra(ie. Soamibagh as opposed to Dayalbagh!!) line presumably by just reading S.D. Maheshwari who supports it!!??? Sounds suspect!!

[Robert Searle]

Mike Williams...again!

I did a google word search for your site on a book entitled Heaven on Earth by Daryai Lal Kapur, RSSB publication. It did not turn up this reference, and you seem to be unaware of it though I may well be wrong.

The section dealing with Baba Jaimal Singh has data emanating from witnesses who met, or "knew" him. A list of these witnesses appears in the acknowledgements. It is claimed that he was held in high regard, and Swamiji notably authorized him to give initiation to seekers. Apparently, even Saligram regarded him with great respect.

[Trey]

"But, the highest chakra is in the chest, near the lower heart center. It is called the higher heart center. The kundalini moves through the highest head center and then curls back down to the Higher Heart Centre."
--Mike Williams

This was also taught by other gurus/sages such as, perhaps most famously, Ramana Maharshi, but he did not teach an elaborate means of getting there via higher head centers and then back down.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Trey,
You are right about Ramana Maharshi and I have quoted his pranahuti statements in the past. I was initiated by Ram Chandra
into pranahuti in 1982. There
are no pranahuti masters alive
that I am aware of.

To Robert,
I believe you may be too far gone
for me to help.
When you knowingly endorse a fake
master such as Kirpal, you become
involved in the scam.

Again, knowingly, you do not fool anyone.

If you sleep in a barn, you will smell
like a horse.

[Dogribb]

Jiddu and then UG were instrumental in my post RSSB debriefing.Both in construction and deconstructing the whole Guru business and looking at inquiry from the inquirer

[Robert Searle]

"Mike Williams"

No, I do not recommend any specific guru as you seem to suggest...save for one Sant Harjit Singh. I take my inspiration mainly from the "Teachings" of Faqir Chand who I feel comes close to the Truth.

However, I would like to find a Sant Satguru who may have a credible outer life if possible. So, far this is a very "difficult" matter...and indeed, it may not necessarily matter if we believe in Faqir Chand, and indeed, Sawan Singh whose claimed comment appears on my blog. You must have seen it as a link was published here somewhere...

[Robert Searle]

"Mike Williams,"

I was interested in the following.

For example when I was initiated by Prof. Dr. Agam Mathur, Guru at Peepal Mundi, great
grandson of Salig Ram, he gave me the higher
chakras on the head, with discriptions of sounds and sights.

I recall a simple sketch profile of someones faith by Sam Busa in a RSSB magazine. It gave the five centres in ascending order from the "Third Eye" until it reach the crown of the head which was ofcourse Sach Khand.

I have also come across Pranahuti. I believe it is also referred to as Sahaj Yoga, but to say that it is the highest path is absurd BECAUSE NO ONE KNOWS WHAT IS THE HIGHEST PATH. It could be anything.....and not necessarily Shabd Yoga, or Pranahuti,or anything else ofcourse!

[Mike Williams]

Hi Robert,
I am going to be polite.

I believe you should seek the help of a professional.

I wish you the best of luck in life.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Dogribb,
You are lucky to have escaped.
Very lucky.

Hi David,

Technically the kundalini can be raised
in various ways. In sant mat chastity
is used to produce Ojas.

Since few people have chastity, few
people get anywhere with sant mat.
Some people have natural blockage.
Women do better than men.

For example, when I was initiated by a Yogananda Guru, I was taught to mentally
take the energy up the spine, then
back down, many times before beginning
sound practice in the posture.

I have been initiated by several kundalini masters. Few people get any experience.

It is interesting there is a drug
called Prozac which helps people
with psychosis, by blocking the sexual
energy.

Tantric methods are needed to succeed
in kundalini practice. When you have sex, but don't. In a man one can block the semen from coming out in orgasm.

Sant mat does not teach the method.

Sant mat is self induced schizophrenia literally. Hearing sounds and sights that don't exist. Except for tinitus.

There is actually no
such thing as kundalini.

It's hormones and glands, etc.
All physical.

[Robert Searle]

"Mike Williams,"

I assume you are referring to my blog article on Religare, and Gurinder which has caused you to make a ad hominen attack on me. I know the reasoning in it especially in connection with the Chand interpretation may seem "outrageous". BUT IT STILL HAS ITS OWN KIND OF LOGIC WHICH MAY HOLD WITH THE ACTUAL TRUTH.

[Robert Searle]

"Mike Williams"(!)

Sant mat is self induced schizophrenia literally. Hearing sounds and sights that don't exist. Except for tinitus.

Many people have had visions but that does not have to mean that they are all schizophrenic, or need psychiatric help.....

However, such things may well be projections of the imagination, or alternatively in rare cases possible glimpses of "higher dimensions."

[Robert Searle]

CORRECTION.

I recall a simple sketch profile of someones faith by Sam Busa in a RSSB magazine.

...should read as follows

I recall a simple sketch profile of someones face by Sam Busa in a RSSB magazine.

[David]

Mike,

Are you saying that celibacy causes lights and sounds to be seen?

My understanding, which i have derived from various sources, is that conserving the semen and slowing down the breathing causes some kind of suction of the semen inwards, which somehow awakens the spinal nerves. Would that be correct?

I am familiar with Yogananada's teachings quite extensively but your explanation about sending the energy up and down the spine is something new to me. What energy are you talking about?

As someone who was diagnosed with schizophrenia a long time ago, before i was even aware of meditation and yoga, i can say that i never heard sounds or saw lights. I was an avid masturbator. I never heard voices speaking to me but i did have negative thoughts that sometimes seemed to intrude into my mind in a way that felt like it wasn't coming from me. But since i have meditated these kind of thoughts occur in the hypnagogic state anyway.

I agree with you that kundalini is physical. But there are two, maybe three things that exist which i find really hard to explain - the accuracy of vedic astrology and deja vu. I believe it is possible to somehow pick up body language from others and intuitively "read" their history and possible future with some kind of tie in with deja vu. If i can say deja vu is "God" then i believe in God. But God to me as classically thought of is something that nobody knows or can know.

As to OBEs or astral projection i believe these are very similar to lucid dreams, the difference being that they are more akin to hypnagogic hallucinations. It seems obvious that if you wake early and enter meditation the body will fall asleep but the mind will remain aware - the state of fatigue of the body causes most of the sensory nerves to retire inside and the REM state causes hallucinations. But it is also a form of self-hypnosis, in that you can decided on what to think about in this state - so if you think about God or Jesus or Krishna, you will experience it.

[Mike Williams]

Hi David,
Semen conservered converts to Ojas.

Movement up and down spine, before
sitting for surat shaba, is moving kundalini
up and down spine to get it active.

Radhasoami does not do that first.

Agree with hallucinations most the time.

I was initiated by Hariharinanda into
Yogananda surat shabda. He is dead now.

But, advanced students produce self induced
schizophrenia.

That's why a good guru is always nuts. (grin)

Nietzsche was atheist, but believed in eternal recurrance.

So, sometimes the atheist does believe in an afterlife for one reason or another.

In Nietzshe's case, deja vu would make complete sense, because he believed you
come back as you just were in this life. But, didn't say when.

Gurdjieff Ouspensky Group also believes
in eternal recurrance, with the twist you improve the same life each time.

They don't explain what happens to a baby
that dies.

That's for your interesting post.

[David]

HI again Mike,

Ojas is not semen it is just "energy" that has been transformed from semen. So when you say you move energy up and down the spine i don't know what you mean. When the semen is stopped from going out it goes inwards and upwards, into the bladder etc. Unless you mean to say that it goes into the cerebro spinal fluid?

My good friend says that kundalini is more like a thin thread in the middle and there are 2 other currents on either side of it that don't criss cross like the figure 8 but have a more linear movement. She also said that she used to see a blue circular light, which others may have called the "blue pearl". Does this make sense to you?

And what of Yogananda's description that the third eye is a golden ring around a blue field with a silver star in the centre?

Hariharananda is not esteemed in the general kriya circles. He claimed he was initiated by Sri Yukteswar but this is dubious.

So if kundalini makes people schizophrenic, are you schizophrenic?

[Mike Williams]

Ojas is the distalation of energy
from semen, the power that raises one according to theory.

Mutakananda used the blue pearl.

Hariharananda was authorized in writtng to initiate.

He was a 7th degree master.

Yogananda's group had a fake lineage
when the woman came in.

[David]

YOu don't seem to be coherent enough, Mike. You have talked about initiation conferring some kind of psychic supernatural benefit and how Daya Mata broke the lineage. Daya Mata didn't break the lineage, the president before her was Rajasi and he broke the lineage. So you are saying that some kind of shakti energy exists, but you also claim that kundalini is merely physical nerves and glands etc.

You also didn't comment on deja vu in terms of whether it is a real phenomenon. Nor did you comment on Yogananda's third eye description.

Sorry if this sounds intimidating, but i generally ask specific questions and your answers are rather vague.

[Robert Searle]

A repeated question to "Mike Williams" which David has raised.

Have you experienced energies, and "visions" in your yoga experiences? If you have then perhaps you are a bit you know what....!!!???

I wonder if we will get an intelligible answer.

It is odd that someone who thinks inner yoga experiences are"crazy", and can make one "crazy" should have been involved in it the first place! MW has arguably shot himself in the foot!

Moreover, he does not seem to have carefully examined, or possibly read the book Heaven on Earth by Daryai Lal Kapoor. This topic was raised earlier on....hhm...

[Mike Williams]

Hi David,
No I don't believe in eternal recurrance.

Yes, kundalini is all physical glands, hormones, etc.

Shakti energy does not exist, just what science has found.

Daya Mata broke the lineage and was unathorised.

Yogananda's third eye description is like a hundred I have heard. Seems everyone sees
something different.

[Todd]

Mike, I was also initiated by Paramahamsa Hariharananda Giri, and by Agam Prasad Mathur in Agra,but in my own experience, I still find the Simran and Bhajan of RSSB to be most effective....

provided I put in the hours.....that seems to be the crucial point

[Mike Williams]

Hi Todd,

The end result of kundalini surat shabda
is the sound at radhasoami and the light
of a trillion suns.

It appears we start down the road of a journey without sign posts, not realizing
that the inner planes don't actually exist
as real places.

Even if one makes it to radhasoami Pad,
they still are not enlightened.

In my journeys, I have never met an
enlightened surat shabda yoga master.

I have seen no enlightened experiential
masters except for Ram Chandra, whom was a pranahuti master.

Enlightenment is not the end product
of a series of higher inner experiences.

So a master of surat shabda yoga is as far away from enlightenment as his disciples.

Faquir Chand used to wonder if he had not "spun a web."

When he attained the high regions he asked
himself who he is.

That question can be asked at the beginning
of the journey.

In fact, it may stop a person
from taking any journey at all.

[Todd]

Hi Mike, honestly, so far, the most significant meditation experience I've ever had was with S.N. Goenka....so maybe he's enlightened...

[David]

It doesn't matter what meditation you do so long as the things you think about most of the time are given a distraction when you are relaxing into a reverie, since these type of situations bring forth a concomitant experience of an intuitive nature. Goenka meditations are no more profound than any relaxive and concentration exercise suited to any individual. It is exactly the same thing as self hypnosis.

[CCS]

Never met UG- I accidentally came across his (non)teachings on the web. I disagree on many counts.
1. His claims such as "there is no such thing as a blue sky" or "there is no such thing as a table' seem non-sensical and an utter waste of time to me. Irrespective of whether you call the sky blue it will lead to a physiological sensation. We just give it the label "blue" which makes it efficient. Anyone who has studied cognitive psychology knows that there is no such thing as absolute reality. There is nothing unique here about UG's teachings.
2. His utter disdain for gurus and tradition is understandable to an extent. However, not all gurus have an agenda. I know many in India that are full of compassion and kindness and have not made a dime for their time or teachings.
3. By claiming that he rejects anything that comes from human thought (which is basically everything)he seems to imply that every intellectual, every saint, every academic has it wrong except him. The whole world present and past is wrong UG is the only one right, come on now!

[Mike Williams]

"The whole world present and past is wrong UG is the only one right, come on now!"
quote CCS

That's correct. U. G. was a stone cold genius. Even Einstein and Planck couldn't get right what U. G. Krishnamurti got right.

[CCS]

If indeed there is a 'stone cold genius' in UG, I for one have missed it entirely. Of course "genius" itself is an attribute of the mind so as per UG it would be meaningless to call him that.

UG Krishnamurti's 'teachings' seem to be a cross between nihilism and advaita philosophy - nothing new or radical. Perhaps he unique here in the west, in India you can see hundreds like him, chattering meaninglessly. They were just not fortunate enough to find a pedestal. And for someone who so overtly opposes religion or any form of spirituality he seems most obsessed with it.

It annoys me when he treats anyone with a spiritual quest with such callous disdain while exalting drug addicts and others steeped in materialsim. If there is nothing more to our existence than what is physical, tangible and right in front of us how does it matter whether you are good or bad or a drug addict or religous? Many people hold on to their religious or spritual beliefs as crutches and it works for them. By taking that away he essentially leaves them supportless, confused and miserable. Why not let the spiritual addicts hold on to their addiction just like drug addicts hold on to theirs. As per UG all of life is meaningless anyway, then why not live it blissfully, albeit ignorantly?

And on a minor note I don't like his rude, erratic, condescending manner. All those who criticize his demeaning, arrogant manner are judged as superficial people that only see the man and miss his teaching. Nonsense! Even if there is truth in UG's (non) teachings there is no excuse for rude, insulting behavior. The truth will be no less veridical if it is conveyed in a more eloquent, gentler manner.

[V.Mohan from Bangalore]

I like very much the comments made on U.G. in this web site. I have meet U.G.personally many times in my life. If any one is interested you can contact me. Thank you all. V.Mohan from Bangalore

[CCS]

Mohan, considering that you have met UG in person perhaps you can answer this question. What about UG's teachings (or the lack thereof!) keeps people going back to him? Is it the fact that he has ripped them off every belief, hope or faith they've ever had and they have nowhere else to go. Somewhat like the abused dog that keeps returning to its abusive master?

[Mike Williams]

"By taking that away he essentially leaves them supportless, confused and miserable."
quote CCS

Hi Mohan and CCS,

CCS, your point is very well taken. In fact when I wrote my book I had to ask myself this question, I am sure Brian asked himself the same question and Faquir Chand.

Should we let people be happily deceived with their religion ?

I came to the consclusion religion hurts people far more than it helps.

Religion seperates and devides. We are
a slave to a fake master whom takes our money. It can destroy famalies.

Jiddo Krishnamuti came to this conclusion also.

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html