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February 11, 2009


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Hi Roger and tucson,
Absences are a puzzle.It is hard to handle
that it is possibly what I am.
Somewhat like a space between words or a vortex in
a river.
Thanks for the great idea.


Thanks for the reply.

"Void can be known, but not by any conceptual reasoning process."
---this where the reading information, regarding "rigpa" begins or ends.

Nothing wrong with reading information, and treating it as such.

rigpa information from the internet:

Only clear light mental activity can have nonconceptual cognition of voidness beyond concepts, and when it does, it has nonconceptual cognition of the two truths simultaneously.

In this context, the two truths are:
• voidness beyond concepts,
• pure appearances – appearances that are beyond impure appearances.

Impure appearances include:
1. appearances of truly existent “this”s and “that”s,
2. appearances of sensibilia, such as momentary collections of patchs of colored shapes, that are not truly existent as “this”s and “that”s.

Cognition of impure appearances resembles “periscope vision,” with which we view reality through a limited perspective, as if through a periscope. We see only what is in front of our noses, seemingly separated and isolated from the state beyond the seemingly solid categories of words and concepts.

Clear light cognition, on the other hand, produces and cognizes appearances of what are beyond truly and non-truly existent “this”s and “that”s. That does not mean, however, that with clear light cognition, everything becomes an undifferentiated oneness. Objects retain their conventional identities. Moreover, clear light mental activity produces and cognizes appearances both of all phenomena and of itself, for instance as a Buddha-figure. Simultaneously, it also cognizes the voidness of them that is beyond words and concepts.

Clear light cognition, however, may be divided into two:
1. clear light that does not know that the two truths it cognizes are true,
2. clear light that knows that they are true.

---Tucson, add this info to the comment on rigpa, furnished by Tao, dated March 4, 2009.

Keep it simple guys. Too many words and not enough space... Suggest you read Eckhart Tolle "The Power of NOW" and also "A New Earth" also Gangaji "Diamond in your pocket" and "I am That" put those with Sant Mat, Haffiz and Rumi and "you" should "answer" all "your own" "questions" and "doubts".
Discover "you" are ONE ... thats it.. I AM.
Too simple... do it NOW

Dear Lizzee,
I have no problem with most of what you write.The only word that worries me is your use of the word
Right now,in this moment,I am as now as I ever will be.I am not sure who should be discovering
I hope this makes sense

hey good people
i have been taken in by these satsangis, and i was very very ill at the time.after iniation i was thrown away as im a poor white woman with nothing but british guts and love for our lord god, i found they had no use for me.i went often to Haynes park where i was abused and insulted time after time and told its my karma.i saw the guru twice although the first time he looked in his 30s then a year later he was an old white wizard of 57s. i asked about this and was told he had taken on a lot of souls and this had aged him...what was shocking is the fact that they do not do any funding for anything bar for their own use.they play acted such a lot and even dressed up and set up seances of things to get a reaction from me.
as im divorced i was call a whore and all sorts of things happened to me and even after being thrown out and only iniated 10 months they hound me and follow me.there is a spiritual energy there but its not for anyones benefit its controlling and the whites are all like joe witnesses -more concerned about cars and clothes(kinda missing the point that christ would of carried u and given u the shirt of his back.) my whole life was infected by them interfering with everything.i moved and still they have found me.i remember one old ex drunk,bob. saying to me that i deserved the pain i was going to get and i owed them all. few months later i asked a friend who has second sight what he ment she told me they work on peoples energies and go in through ur solar plexus and route out all bad things u have done then mess up ur head.it seems because i complained about one of their disciples who lives in wales,he is a heavy drinker/smoker and his ex girlfriend and other people told me he was lucky to because he abused her two boys.she had come home and caught him in bed with them. he put the fear of god in her and said he could have her kids taken away.so he got off..i wrote to the master and told him but as usual .the reply had nothing to do with the letter.you see i was not expected to get iniated i was to be shut up.and they went all out with there acting and insults.the only thing they could get on me was i was a single parent and as most are asian,.and asian woman are bought and sold before 3 sometimes i was a threat to this growing cult,community .i had great peace before i met that man in whales now 4yrs on im far from that peace.its like this group has gone over to the other side and brings discontent,fear and ugly little ego popping up all over the place up there.
one thing that is sad is that not one of them is happy or peaceful all are so unhappy and so afraid .they even tried to push this 5ft asian on to me as some kind of partner!!i laugh so much at some of what they did and do.and this is reinforced by the fact that i was so very very ill.


So many people searching..searching for what? A self? But there isn't one! No such 'thing' exists, has ever existed, or ever could exist.
quote Tao

I was not here when this discussion
began, but I see some wondeful posts by Tao
and Tucson and an interesting conversation
with a fellow named David.

That's why a method of explanation is necessary
for new people to the 'Who Am I' logic.

Thought is found, not a self. Can impersonal thought in the head of a person 'personalize' itself ?

A head is thinking impersonal thoughts.

Impersonal thoughts form a belief it is a self.

It is the belief there is a self that causes the search for enlightenment.

But, what happens when enlightenment occurs ?

The realization there never was a self.

The realization there was never anyone whom
could become realized, or saved.

The realization the search was in vain.

The realization religion and masters are false.

The realization one wasted their time.

The realization all one can do is live their life.

It all seems so simple in hindsight.

Only a magician can dehypnotise people.

It is a hypnotic trance hurting people.

Houdini is needed, not a Guru.

I see it a little different, before enlightenment you are identified with your body, the outside. After enlightenment the identification shifts back to its origin, to the inside. Before you do not feel you exist, after you are fuly aware of your existance. What might com later I don't know. ..
To mary. You sound just like a satsangi I used to know. I'm wondering if Sant Mat atracks like people or creates them...I mean you seem to be very sensitive and care much to much about what others say or think imo.
What helps me is to surround myself with white light when I'm around others. To stop the overwhelming.

No inside, no outside.

No duality, no nonduality.

All concepts out the window.

Just what is happening.

Except the belief in a self is gone.

Therefore, the BELIEF no longer
creates action in the person's life.

Only the reality of what you are is
left to create action.

The personification of impersonal
thought has stopped.

Even the 'persona' of God is gone.

God becomes Nature.

Nature acts according to its nature.

For better or worse, its all just happening.

But, no one is making it happen.

Just the same, those with no persona
can make it happen more harmoniously.

With just pure non personified thought
and pure logic.

The words inside and outside are to be read as metafors. There is no way I can talk about the inside but by using this metafore. You are right that every description therefore must be wrong and misleading but I'm a believer in metaphysics and imetaphysics should be revived in my opinion and I think the meaning of the phrase inside can be shown under the right conditions to the right person.

Nietzsche: "before enlightenment you are identified with your body, the outside. After enlightenment the identification shifts back to its origin, to the inside."

-- how do you know this?? who is "you"?? where is the "outside"?? outside of what?? what or where is this "origin"?? where is the "inside"?? inside of what??

Nietzsche: "Before you do not feel you exist, after you are fuly aware of your existance."

-- "Before" what?? and how do you know this to be so? is this your own experience?? because my experience has been quite the opposite of what you describe. i used to feel that i really did exist. now i feel that my (seemingly apparent) existence is really not my own, and is not separate or independent of the whole.

Nietzsche: "What might com[e] later I don't know."

-- "come later"?? later from when?? clocks and calendars are artificial and more or less meaningless. nature is an unbroken flow.

Nietzsche: "I'm a believer in metaphysics"

-- why?? why do you believe?? why do you feel a need to believe in anything?

Nietzsche: "the meaning of the phrase inside can be shown under the right conditions to the right person."

-- that sounds somehwat similar to the vague excuse that mystics so often use, and its a cop-out.

Nietzsche, I've been reading a book about Zen and neuroscience where enlightenment (or satori) is described as "allopathic," external world centered, as contrasted with "egocentric," internal world centered.

This fits with my own experience. Going within myself isn't as satisfying as feeling connected with everybody and everything else. When I focus on myself, I feel less real than when I'm focused on the world as a whole, which naturally includes me.

Immediately after writing I realised that one of the misleading aspects of using the words inside and outside is that they might be interpretated as in and outside the body. i do not mean that. It is truly beyond physical descriptioh to me.
I'm trying to speak from experience where as an adolescence I was living on automatic pilot. Later I experienced clarity and rest and my mind could be silenced. I became more aware of myself, my feelings, not emotions and it felt like discovering my real me. I suspect most people experience this but sometimes I'm surprised by the reactions I get. Think I'm not expressing myself clearly or perhaps a lot of people never really grow up?
So that explains before and after. In and outside was explained to Brian and the vagueness refers to the fact that I have not method to grow up. It just seems to happen. I would have been a guru if I would have clamed the growing up as a result of my words or techniques. That would have been like clamng spring :)
As for metaphysics. Try it, it helps you to spread your wings and use your imagination.

At least Neitzche says he believes in metaphysics, i cant even begin to understand the mindset that views hare krishna or tai chi as not mystical, let alone metaphysical.

what you think these practices are based on?

there aint no empirical evidence for either chi or krishna.

"hey good people"

---what about the 'bad' people? someone's 'good' person, may actually be another person's 'bad' person.


Say, "hey" to good and bad people......

fact: tai chi is nothing but a physical (and energetic) gentle bodily exercise... so there is nothing "mystical" involved in doing the tai chi exercise.

fact: hare krishna amounts to nothing more than chanting the hare krishna mantra/prayer... so there is nothing "mystical" involved in chanting either.

Real is a very slippery concept. Take for example our real experience of the world around us. When you analyse what is going on with physical instruments than the resulting interaction between us and the universe seems to come from microscopic phenomena that have no similarity to the real object at all. In other words what we intuitively call real is a interferance and summation of very unreal phenomena. Problems like what is inside the smalest particle are solved by realising that particles arise from microscopic interactions that are very unintuitively.
However for us as macroscopic creatures the world is real as it is. And philosophical questions about the nature of matter can not be answered by extrapolation of our macroscopic experiences.
What I learn from this is that the world is our creation and not to expect anything regular from the momentary experience of my reality today. What might happen tomorrow falls between certain probabilities but what might happen when I seriously change in physical nature like after death is probable totaly unexpected. I sometimes think that it is a small miracle that most days look so very similar. Now that is another vision on the boring day after day reality :)
It has little to do with tay chi or metaphysics but it occured to me as I was reading about quasi particles like phonons that seem real but only arise from vibrations between other particles but than interact and are observable like real particles. Brian might be interested :)


hang on a second, it is called tai chi, so what is chi? chi is supposedly some unmeasurable energy which ppl dance around.

it is called hare krishna, so who is krisha? a hindu god who fellas in robes with shaven heads worship in airports while dancing around.

PS: I just saw your diet earlier up in the thread, your methane emissions must be causing greenhouse problems. holy mother of god, u must fart like a spluttering 2-stroke.

"it is called tai chi, so what is chi? chi is supposedly some unmeasurable energy which ppl dance around."

-- in my fairly limited knowledge of the subject, "chi" is the life force. so the practice of the tai chi exercise focuses on circulating, developing and balancing the life force. also, i don't think it involves dancing.

"it is called hare krishna, so who is krisha?"

-- krishna means god the all-attractive. and hara, or hare, is the supreme pleasure potency.

"a hindu god who fellas in robes with shaven heads worship in airports while dancing around."

-- actually the godhead sri krishna is usually not worshipped in airports. krishna is primarily worshipped in temples.

"I just saw your diet earlier up in the thread, your methane emissions must be causing greenhouse problems. holy mother of god, u must fart like a spluttering 2-stroke."

-- i don't know what comment you are referring to. my diet is simple and basic... it consists of various kinds of vegetables, greens, fruit, nuts & seeds, fats like butter & olive oil & coconut oil, and certain types of grains. also whey protein (isolate). a rather normal diet.


Your diet is very good. I'm guessing, you're still into juicing. Keeping it simple and basic is smart.


I know. I'm way off topic here. Forgive.

Here is an intereting questionaire to help determine the types of food and their proportions that best suit you according to your metabolic type.

This is not new information and has been around for a long time. It remains a useful tool in my opinion..

The difficulty is in answering the test questions objectively, honestly, and without prejudice or prior conditioning...a lot to ask!! But try.

Vegetarians will have more difficulty than omnivores with this questionaire because they may have forgotten how they felt when eating meat. Conversely, some people have never eaten a vegetarian meal in their life. The thing to keep in mind is not whether you THINK a particular food is good for you or not but rather its EFFECT that it has on you.

Here you go:


I would be interested in hearing any reactions to this questionaire.

it says that i'm a "mixed" type. it says all foods are ok for me. but i don't know if thats true.

even though meat is not part of my regular diet, i do tend to feel slightly better after eating some eggs or whey protein, and saturated fats. i haven't eaten meat in a very long time, but thats mainly only because the taste and texture does not appeal to me. however, at some point i intend to really try to see how eating meat or poultry will affect me. fish doesn't seem to bother me, but i am not really fond of it either. grain doesn't seem to bother me, especially if eaten in moderation. i usually eat quick oats or rice, and also quinoa or sometimes millet or barley. i can and do occasionally eat a little wheat - in the form of bread (but without any added gluten), but i try keep it pretty minimal. i am not real sure about how potatoes affect me. its hard to tell. i do like and eat raw or dried fruit and berries, but i really avoid any kind concentrated sugars like sugar, honey, etc. i eat lots of coconut oil and olive oil, or butter. i also take fish oil (cod). i eat beans, but i much prefer smaller beans such as black beans or adzuki or dal lentils. i totally avoid soybeans. i eat almonds, sometimes sunflower seeds, but peanuts only rarely. i eat many vegetables like dark leafy greens, carrots, celery, broccoli, squash, yams, green beans etc. i eat very little if any corn. i pretty much avoid processed food.

I am clearly a protein type. I do very well on meat and a high protein diet. As I get older my protein demands have become less however as my metabolism has slowed and I don't participate in demanding sports anymore.

The problem with being a protein type for me is that I was a vegetarian for about 28 years. I would prefer not to eat animals, but I do because I feel better. That's it.

If I go veg I get cravings and tend to eat too many carbs which raises triglycerides and cholesterol, LDL cholesterol in particular. The liver produces cholesterol in response to insulin which is produced by the pancreas in response to glucose (sugar either direct as from honey or indirect as from breakdown of carbs).

Eating all those carbs (grain, bread, beans, potatoes, fruit, dried fruit, etc.) worked OK when I was 25 or 30 and expending a lot of physical energy and I stayed lean. But as I got older all this sugar was being ushered into my cells by insulin and stored as fat.

I eliminated corn and wheat from my diet and introduced animal protein. I lost 20 lbs. very rapidly and then gradually gained 10 lbs. of upper body muscle from working out and lifting hay bales. This happened about 13-14 years ago. I was actually stronger, in terms of being able to lift pianos, than at any time in my life.

Now, I eat mostly a mixed natural food diet with some animal protein but not as much. I use cod liver oil, probiotics, herbs and supplements as needed. I avoid sugar and transfats. I try not to eat more than necessary.

Generally, my stamina is good and I can stay within shouting distance of my son on long steep hikes with a pack on my back. This is saying a lot because he is a talented collegiate runner and strong hiker.

This has not kept me from getting a large growth in my rectum recently which had to be surgically removed. Not malignant fortunately but it was on its way.

People, get your colonoscopies. It might save your ass...literally.


i strongly suspect that i am a protein type as well. i don't eat meat, but i feel better on a more protein diet. btw, what i said above may have been a little misleading. i actually don't eat very much carbs. i eat a very small amount of fruit first thing in the morning with tea. then i eat a small amount of quick oatmeal (unsweetened) with a few of tablespoons of coconut oil. except for a banana in my whey shakes, thats it for carbs for the day. i sometimes have a small portion of rice much later, in evening. after the small amount of breakfast carbs, i pretty much eat only protein (like beans nuts or brewers yeast) and vegges for the rest of the day. beans do have some carbs but also protein. i don't crave carbs at all, and i mostly only do carbs in the morning for energy. i was eating at least four eggs a day for a coouple of years. i quit a few months ago just to see if i felt any different. i stay completely away from all sweets and sugar type sweeteners. i actually eat very little dried fruit. i harldly ever eat potatoes. but also, i have never had a problem storing fat. i could eat carbs and sweets and fats all day, but never gain any weight or fat at all. i know beccuse i have tried. it doesn't matter what i eat, i never gain any weight. i am the same now in my 60s, as i was when i was age 25 or 30. i do gain muscle mass when i lift weights and consume lots of protein (like eggs and whey). i am still planning to try meat again, but being a complete vegge for 44 years is a hard pattern to break. since my wife doesn't eat meat and is very biased against it, i can't really cook meat or poultry at home. and i don't want any processed meat or poultry. i have tried some fish (tunafish, salmon, herring, and sardines) but as i asid, i am not quite used to the taste and smell of fish, especially tuna. i sort of had to force myself, so i let the fish go. there aren't any good quality restaurants around where i live. so maybe i should just go go the route of an In-N-Out Burger (ie: not McDs or Burger King) *grin*

i haven't yet had any colonoscopy, but i probably should, just to make real sure. i just prefer not to get knocked-out with anesthetic, and i hear that thats what they do because its too painful otherwise.

For those who are protein types and can't eat animals, eggs are a good option. You can actually eat quite a few of them if they agree with you. Whole milk dairy products are an option, again if they agree with you. Also, fats like butter, ghee, olive oil, coconut oil and others.

There was an old guy with dementia of some kind in a rest home. He would eat only eggs, many each day. His cholesterol was normal. Eggs causing high cholesterol is a myth that still persists in the minds of some. Try to get eggs from naturally raised chickens.

Anesthesia is bad for us but colo-rectal cancer is worse, the #3 cancer killer and it can often be prevented.

The drug commonly used now for colonoscopies is propophol. You are unaware of the prodedure, there is no pain, and you wake up with little hangover. The hassle is the day before prep. It involves a clear liquid diet and drinking a substance that empties the interstine. It is a day of diarrhea so make sure you have the day off from any responsibilities that keep you more than 10 seconds from a toilet or a private place in the woods.

tAo said:
*I also decided to start some serious weight training to build up muscle mass*

tAo i am also in weight lifting stuff but i am now more into pull ups and push ups and i made myself a sandbag for squats cause it better feels on my neck than barbell.I also admire Maxick's muscle control do you know him or his method of Maxalding i also like running and vinyasa.
Now i like this Bartendaz stuff check out here how this Beast jumps high with pull ups

Tao hope you are back and in some other questions to you i also asked which rock business you did and by what *other* reason as you said you left santmat.Peace

P.S. and if you want some old school literature from 100 years for free, back from real great handbalancers and lifters i can send you link.



tAo my friend where are you

Hello everyone After reading ur post phil and everyones comments I really have nothing to say but Its ur guys thinking and I hope you all find Your RIGHT PATH...Im very happy with RRSB and the sant mat teachings THIS IS right for me WISH U ALL THE BEST IN LIFE...

Radha Soami was for about 24 years am matter of awe and was holy for me. It is a different between mystic and mystification. I felt very often wonderful guidance but i can't accept the new version of baba ji, mr. dhillon.

Ah, Robert, you are in very good company ...

Perhaps - only a suggestion - what is commonly termed Self realisation actually involves something which goes along the lines of the de-mystification of that well used but rarely understood concept of 'master'/'guru'.

Even the latest RSSB guru - Babaji-G - just a few years ago & in one of his rare Truth-expounding moments made the point that anyone who'd even made a smidgin of real progress wouldn't hang about. Hmmmm. Sounds pretty good to me!

I wish to apologise, publicly, deeply and sincerely. for I should not have posted the names of others without their permission. A deep thank you to Brian who has kindly responded to my recent realisation and assisted me to correct my mistake by removing those names.

But hiding from the facts of my past errors does little except hide from the reality of my lack of understanding: I had not understood the value of initiation, I had not understood the significance of my experiences, and I do not understand the pull of the chain that has been so securely attached to that bulldozer and has now come taught again.

The only thing I know is that I do not understand how much more there is to existence than this physical reality, but just as I once felt so right in following the path, and then, later, felt so right in rejecting the path, and now; now I witness that what seemed so right is just a passing phase, that change is essential for any journey.

The Source is only Love
It's You Phil

It's so enjoyable to many of us


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