« Thanks for making the past year happy | Main | Julian Barnes deals with death...irreligiously »

January 02, 2009

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Brian said:

"This is the enigma and the paradox of faiths that simultaneously try to (1) make God into a formless all-pervading conscious energy, and (2) a thoroughly human guy or gal. When religious believers try to have things both ways -- God as universal ultimate reality and God as personal best friend -- what we get is confusion, not truth, in my thoroughly personal opinion."

-- Thats it. I could't agree more.


Here is my somewhat sober response:

Every "saint" had/has their own method and personality. The efficacy in Gurinder Singh's methods for conveying the "do nothing" teaching to his followers through karaoke is unknown to me. It makes perfect sense that his teaching methods must be carefully scrutinized by anyone who would have him as their master.

Having said that, most people can't simply "do nothing" and so they want to have meetings, talk about their lives, and fly around the world to "hang out" and have a good time with their master (their personal piece of "God" they can possess) - rather than sit down, shut up, and do nothing. Anyway, it is indeed a paradox. Perhaps as paradoxical as the "Rock Me Sexy Jesus" song.

In case you are curious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSVR94c0bqM

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :)

"(..)God as universal ultimate reality and God as personal best friend(..)"

Wait, aren't we talking about Christianity here?

JJQ, good point. Yes, we are talking about Christianity. This struck me after I was initiated into RSSB way back in 1971.

How so many disciples previously were devout Christians, and found so much compatibility between Sant Mat and Christianity. They simply viewed the guru as a living Jesus.

A careful study of the RSSB teachings shows that the "true guru" actually is considered to be formless spirit. The physical guru just points the way to formlessness.

But most disciples never realize this. They don't make the move from form to formless, because playing guru-devotion games is so much fun.

Great post Brian. My meetings with Gurinder led me to the same conclusion as yours ... a nice guy, but God? never!

...a nice guy, but God? always! For if the Non-objective would speak It might say:

I only am as all beings.
I only exist as all appearances.
I am only experienced as all sentience.
I am only cognised as all knowing.
Only visible as all that is seen,
Every concept is a concept of what I am.
All that seems to be is my being,
For what I am is not any thing.

Being whatever is phenomenal,
Whatever can be conceived as appearing,
I who am conceiving cannot be conceived.
Since only I conceive,
How could I conceive what is conceiving?
What I am is what I conceive.
Is that not enough for me to be?

When could I have been born,
I who am the conceiver of time itself?
Where could I live,
I who conceive the space where all things extend?
How could I die,
I who conceive the birth, life, and death of all things,
I who, conceiving, cannot be conceived?

I am being, unaware of being,
But my being is all being,
I neither think nor feel nor do,
But your thinking, feeling, doing, is mine only.
I am life, but it is my objects that live,
For your living is my living.
Transcending all appearance,
I am immanent intrinsically,
For all that is-I am,
And I am no thing.

Brian, Gurinder, Jeremy
Even the cockroach and the tree
Can say it too!

Tucson,

nice poem,

I liked, "I am immanent intrinsically...."

Satsangis believe the following: Gurinder is God manifest in human form. The disciple is struggling to manifest God in human form through meditation which incorporates sound, light and Gurinder. Whether the disciple remembers the face of Gurinder as he sings Kareoke or as he explains how to cook a chapatti or in any other way ie: a la rock me sexy Jesus, it's the repeated memory that satsangis believe makes them develop his qualities and transend their short-comings. Eventually the idea is to return with him to his home which is also the origin (according to sant mat teachings).

So Tucson's poem will not help a person who is suffering and is not interested in being that particular conceived part of the whole. That person will look for tools to use to make his manifested life worthwhile.

Any words are simply a conceptual dance. Though my opinion does not matter on such things, tuscon is very good with his words.

The satsangis were overjoyed when Gurinder said "my spirituality is not in my pants" in reference to a joke he related about someone questioning his wearing jeans while riding on a bus. It certainly makes him more approachable as a human being. The method does work for some and I can't complain.

Dear Catherine,
About a year ago I was visited by a satsangi friend who I had not seen for several years.She is,by the way, a very
devoted satsangi.In the course of our conversation
I asked her if she had realized who the Master really is?
She said she had.So I asked her who or what is the
real Master?
She answered with one word "me",meaning herself.
You write:
"The disciple is struggling to manifest God in human form through meditation which incorporates sound, light and Gurinder."
It appears to me that my friends understanding is not quite like yours.
Are you willing to expand a little on what you
mean.
Thanks
Obed

At a evening session in the guesthouse of the dera Maharaj Ji replied to a sisters question about "Free Will":

Q
"I am confused when I read 'one should 'do this, do that', as if I had a free will to choose.
Please help me to better understand"

A
"You see sister, this is also not in your free will to understand it or not, or even your free will to follow.
Just do your best, and leave it to HIM, for only that will happen what HE wants us to happen. With our limited mind we can never understand. It is all HIS grace."

Radha Soami
Joachim

Catherine wrote:
"So Tucson's poem will not help a person who is suffering and is not interested in being that particular conceived part of the whole. That person will look for tools to use to make his manifested life worthwhile."

--Perhaps the realization of the poem will eliminate identification as a conceived individual and suffering that goes with it. It is not that the body-mind and its suffering disappear, but they are seen as phenomena no different and equal to everything else. Much of our suffering is due to identification with concepts related to self. In the absence of self much of this falls away and the worthiness of life is simply the living of it and interacting with phenomena as it plays out...however it plays out.

Physical pain may be present, but it is seen less personally and more as passing phenomena, which does not mitigate the pain sensation but the perspective regarding it is not internalized in the same way...here is pain, there goes pain, here is soothing warmth, there goes soothing warmth and so on.

This does not mean that one does not take action to eliminate physical pain. If there is a thorn in the foot, an attempt is made to remove it. If one is being kept warm by a coat, it is left on. Nothing is changed, just the perspective.

Catherine,

Are you the, Catherine Mueller, from S. Africa?


Tucson,

I liked,

"Much of our suffering is due to identification with concepts related to self. In the absence of self much of this falls away and the worthiness of life is simply the living of it and interacting with phenomena as it plays out...however it plays out."

---the absence of self, could be the tool, that Catherine mentioned.

Dear Tucson,

It is precisely because the identification is still all too potent in your presence that you BELIEVE that your poem can produce the change you describe and that you dismiss Catherine's remark with such a trivial (fairy) tale. The distinction between abstract/physical pain is extremly naive (and as a result it has become a popular theme for those telling "the story of no story").
And the fact that Roger likes your stuff is an additional sign that your stuff speaks to the imagination of man ... And that his appreciation was followed by some non-sensical like "---the absence of self, could be the tool, that Catherine mentioned."


Will I get the usual misguided psychological characterizations, form over substance, here ... next week same time same place ... :)

Elephant,

It is not my intent to dismiss Catherine's remark as trivial, rather it is to offer a different perspective which she is welcome to do with whatever she wishes, but it is you, Elephant, who goes to great lengths to trivialize my comments throughout our exchanges. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

How is it that your obvious intent to diminish and disrespect my perspective is permissible while my harmless comment in response to Catherine is not?

I might have said to Catherine:

"Could it be that many of the ways (disciplines, exercises, practices such as those of Sant Mat) recommended as helpful, or even necessary, for the attainment of "Realization" are not in fact consequences of that state erroneously suggested as means?"

Are you more satisfied with the wording of that comment? Or is that just another affront and slap in her face?

The truth is it seems what I say is somehow interpreted by you as a slap in YOUR face. Why? I don't know, but you seem to have an axe to grind against what you call, with great disdain, "neo-advaita". As I have said elsewhere, neo-advaita, clearly elucidated, is merely paleo-advaita in modern idiom.

All I have tried to express is an explanation of this intuition by some paleo-advaitist type:

"I am Not, but the Universe is my Self"
..SHIH T'OU A.D. 700-790


Logical Analysis of this Intuition (not to be confused with the intuition itself):


Objects are only known as the result of reactions of the senses to a variety of stimuli.

These stimuli appear to come from sources external to the reagent apparatus, but there is no evidence of this apart from the reagent apparatus itself.

Objects, therefore, are only a surmise, for they have no demonstrable existence apart from the subject that cognises them.

Since the subject itself is not sensorially cognisable as an object, subject also is only a surmise.

Since the factual existence of neither subject nor object can be demonstrated, existence is no more than a conceptual assumption, which, metaphysically, is inacceptable.

There is, therefore, no valid evidence for the existence of a world external to the consciousness of sentient beings, which external world is therefore seen to be nothing but the cognisers of it, that is - sentient beings themselves.

But there can be no factual evidence for the existence of sentient beings, either as subject or as object, who therefore are merely a conceptual assumption on the part of the consciousness in which they are cognised.

It follows that 'consciousness' also can only be a conceptual assumption without demonstrable existence.

What, then, can this assumption of consciousness denote? This question can only be answered in metaphysical terms, according to which consciousness may be regarded as the manifested aspect of the unmanifested, which is the nearest it seems possible to go towards expressing in a concept that which by definition is inconceivable.

Why should this be so? It must be so, because conceptuality cannot have conceptuality for source, but only the non-conceptual, because that which objectively conceives must necessarily spring from the objectively non-existent, the manifested from non-manifestation, for conceptuality cannot conceive or objectify itself - just as an eye cannot see itself as an object.

Therefore consciousness can be described as pure non-conceptuality, which is 'pure' because unstained either by the conceptual or the non-conceptual, which implies that there is a total absence of both positive and negative conceptuality.

Not existing as an object, even conceptual, there can be no 'it', there is no 'thing' to bear a name, no subject is possible where no object is, and total absence of being is inevitably implied.

All we can do about this which we are , which to us must be objectified as 'it' in order that we may speak of it at all, is to regard 'it' as the noumenon of phenomena, but, since neither of these exists objectively, phenomenally regarded it may be understood as the ultimate absence from which all presence comes to appear.

But consciousness, or 'Mind', does not 'project'- the phenomenal universe: 'it' IS the phenomenal universe which is manifested as its self.

Metaphysics, relying on intuition or direct perception, says no more than this, and points out that no word, be it the Absolute, the Logos, God, or Tao, can be other than a concept which as such has no factual validity whatsoever.

This-Which-Is, then, which cannot be subject or object, which cannot be named or thought, and the realisation of which is the ultimate awakening, can only be indicated in such a phrase as that quoted above:

I am not, but the apparent universe is my self.

Tucson: but it is you, Elephant, who goes to great lengths to trivialize my comments throughout our exchanges. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

-- Nice Joke. The simple fact that I have repeatedly tried to engage them --only for your answers to be evasive or disengaging--is evidence that I took them seriously as opposed to 'trivialize' them ... like when I went to great length to explain why the distinction mental/physical--as you present it--is a naive narrative ... you just found an excuse to disengage yourself from the exchange ... as usual ...

Tucson: How is it that your obvious intent to diminish and disrespect my perspective is permissible while my harmless comment in response to Catherine is not?

Tucson: harmless behavior ...
Other bad people : strive to diminish and disrespect ...
LOL

Back to your question ... the answer is: because truth frees from suffering; lies simply perpetuates it ...

Elephant:

Are we not wasps who spend all day in a fruitless attempt to traverse a window-pane - while the other half of the window is wide open? I admit doing this some of the time, but it gets us nowhere which is exactly where we want to be!

Right now I prefer to address the side that is wide open. Shall we not cross together? Once more into the fray:

that which is objectivisable cannot possibly be free while This which is not objectivisable cannot possibly be bound. If we are apparently identified with that which is objectivisable, that "We" so-created is bound.

If we remain unidentified with what is objectivisable or if we are released from such apparent identification, we, eternally free, appear to recover our apparently lost freedom. For we are This which is devoid of objectivity as of identity. What we are not is that which appears to be identified with what is objectivised.

The open side of the window is as simple as that.

'We' could easily be replaced by 'I' or any pronoun for the sake of communication in language, but the identification in question is conceptual only.

through an open window shines...

http://www.kriyayoga.org.uk/images/babaji01.jpg


Tucson,

I didn't get the impression that Catherine was writing a comment in opposition to your poem. She was simply writing a comment regarding the reality of Santmat RSSB. This would be her experience with Santmat, and possible disillusionment. She is not the Catherine from S. Africa, imo.

With that said, I liked,

"All we can do about this which we are , which to us must be objectified as 'it' in order that we may speak of it at all, is to regard 'it' as the noumenon of phenomena, but, since neither of these exists objectively, phenomenally regarded it may be understood as the ultimate absence from which all presence comes to appear."

--- "ultimate absense" is the noumenon of phenomena, which neither exists objectively. Phenomenally speaking, it could be understood as the, none existance, which all presence come to appear.
--- realization, is an awakening, that, "relying on intuition or direct perception, says no more than this, and points out that no word, be it the Absolute, the Logos, God, or Tao, can be other than a concept which as such has no factual validity whatsoever."


The Elephant,

I like your comments, that are void, the brackets, parenthesis, periods, hyphons, semicolens, etc.
--- Again, this is a blog, where conversation takes place. No need to make a big deal, about anything of this stuff.

I am glad, Roger, that you have enjoyed some of my recent comments. I just write what comes to mind and if it resonates with readers, great, and if not, no big deal.

tAo, Babaji in that picture looks like my ex brother-in-law. The chicks swooned wherever he went. He ended up on the cover of "Playgirl" magazine (is it still published?) and in many fashion catalogs.

"When religious believers try to have things both ways -- God as universal ultimate reality and God as personal best friend -- what we get is confusion, not truth, in my thoroughly personal opinion."

Doesn't the whole theory of sant mat revolve around the theory that God "the ultimate reality" manifests as God "the best friend" in order to aid the realisation that each of us is, in fact, God "the ultimate reality" ?

Yes but NO...

Yes, sant mat does indeed revolve around the theory that God "the ultimate reality" manifests as God "the best friend".

But NO, sant mat definitely does NOT propose this "in order to aid the realisation that each of us is God the ultimate reality".

Sant mat asserts that ONLY the so-called masters/sants are God incarnate, and NOT "each of us".

If sant mat actually did teach that "each of us is God the ultimate reality", then there would be no need to get disciples to regard the master/guru as being uniquely so.

Most satsangis are in considerable denial about this, but the truth of it is that sant mat does NOT at all promote or teach "the realisation that each of us is God the ultimate reality".

Other teachings and philosophies DO promote that (like advaita and shaivism and perhaps buddhism)... but NOT sant mat. Just go read all of the sant mat literature. You will not find even one instance of this anywhere in the sant mat literature.

But tAo,
Sant Mat does teach that we are each
"potentially God" but that we must reach a certain "level of consciousness" to know this and fully become this.

The choice of belief is a wholly personal issue. Methods for teaching Realization do vary.

I think that tAo is technically correct in his assessment of Sant Mat in general. Sant Mat doctrine is built around a method imparted to the disciple by a teacher and the disciple is mostly portrayed in reverence of his teacher. (This is not unreasonable for a kind society.) The method has simple requirements and uses a simple exercise but many disciples don't get past the physical image and concepts.

As of a few years ago, before requesting initiation into Sant Mat, "A Spiritual Primer" is required reading, according to RSSB. It explicitly says Spiritual Teachers "instruct us not to take their words at face value but to prove the truth of their teachings--each one of us, for ourselves--by putting them into practice."p8 I personally interpret this to be in regard to concepts of karma, reincarnation, life after death, soul, and everything taught except the basic observances and practice. This is a catch all clause allowing me to be a believing skeptic.

In "Philosophy of the Masters vol. II," Huzur says that "the sight of a true devotee becomes so keen that he sees his Beloved in every place and in everything."p41 The disciple progresses sufficiently to recognize himself as all things and Disciple and Master are the same thing. The teaching becomes ambiguous for "advanced states." When the usless concepts are dropped, we gaze in thoughtless wonder in identity with a thing in itself. I can't explain it.

The essential teachings aren't new or unique though, when I first got initiated, there was no alternative. There was no peer pressure and no interest in any formalized religion. Anything with a brand name turned my stomach as being over advertised and pretentious. It took a while to shake the RSSB fundamentalism out of me but stepping back and looking at various other teachings now, I find greater respect for the people who are struggling with the same issues I am and much less inclined to "help them see the light." There is also less interest in the act of seeking and simply more interest in seeing things as they are.

Respects,

Adam,

I beg to differ with you.

Sant Mat does NOT teach: "we are each
potentially God but that we must reach a certain level of consciousness to know this and fully become this". That is only your own mistaken interpretation.

Santmat (RS) teaches: that the master is the shabda incarnate, and that the rest of us are merely souls who are imprisoned within the domain of Kal and maya, and that when (through meditation and the master's guidance crossing through and beyond the inner subtle planes) we can reach the imperishable region of sach khand where we merge into the bosom of Sat Nam and Radha Soami.

Sant mat does NOT teach that WE ARE God... but only that by means of the grace of a shabda incarnate sant-satguru, we may reach the highest abode of God.

Sant mat does not teach that God or the Parameshvara is manifest in/as all beings. Sant mat teaches a type of qualified dualism very similar to the achinta-bheda-abheda-tattva school (simultaneous oneness and difference).

Sant mat does NOT teach advaita (non-dulaim), nor even like the tantra of kashmir shaivism, and especially not at all like buddhism.

Sant mat is actually similar to the dualism of Ramanuja and Madhavacharya, and perhaps somewhat like the synthesis of bhakti and jnana of Jnaneshvara. Sant mat is basically rather similar to the core teaching of Guru Nanak, which is why it derives much from Sikhism.

If you can show an example of where Sant mat actually says: ""we are each potentially God but that we must reach a certain level of consciousness to know this and fully become this", then please let's see it. Because I have read almost all of the RS literature, and I haven't seen that anywhere.

------------------------------------------

Now about Jayme's comment:

"before requesting initiation into Sant Mat, "A Spiritual Primer" is required reading, according to RSSB. It explicitly says Spiritual Teachers "instruct us not to take their words at face value but to prove the truth of their teachings--each one of us, for ourselves--by putting them into practice."

-- I have to say this... It is blatantly obvious (to me at least) that this position of the RSSB (not Jayme) smacks of contradiction and hypocrisy. On the one hand they say (prior to initiation mind you) to "not to take their words at face value"... BUT then (again, prior to initiation mind you) they also say to "prove the truth of their teachings--each one of us, for ourselves--by putting them into practice".

HOW could an NON-initiated seeker possibly put anything into practice??? They haven't even been INITIATED yet. So this is the catch-22 that they (the RSSB) uses to fool the unsupecting seekers into getting initiated, without ever being able to first prove OR to practice anything for themselves (prior to initiation). This is tricky and deceptive. And thats exactly what RSSB is all about.... under the guise of "prov(ing) the truth of their teachings--each one of us, for ourselves--by putting them into practice". What a load of rubbish!


Dear tAo,
I am away from home now, but will look for a tape when I get back, because I distinctly remember hearing Charan Singh say on a tape:
"every soul is potentially God"
having read the lit., I am sure you remember the analogies of cream rising to the top of the milk, etc. I took this statement to be in this category--we're all born with the right stuff to make it happen, but a process is required. I don't disagree with you that according to SM, the the necessary ingredients for this process to occur include 1) initiation by Sat Guru, and 2) meditation on shabd.
When I get home I'll look for this tape and tell you exactly which one it is.

Adam,

Even the statement "every soul is potentially God" is faulty. This implies that a "soul" is not God presently, but will somehow become God later on. I don't agree with that either. Either all is God, or none is God.

But then there is also the problem of how and what people define "God" as being. In the over-all traditional western sense of it, "God" has been typically regarded as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.... and "souls" are not, and never will be that. In the eastern tradition God is generally regarded as being 'Brahman' or the Infinite Eternal Absolute.

If what you say that Charan said is correct, then Charan's Sant mat view would seem to have elements of both the eastern and the western concept of God. However, I myself never heard (or heard anyone tell) that Charan said anything similar to what you say. But perhaps Brian knows something.

Nevertheless, here is what I say: There is no "becoming" God. Either all apparent 'beings' (I don't subscribe to the "souls" designation) in totality are not other than and not separate from God the Absoulte; or else there is NO God and there are no individual "souls". So I don't buy the idea that so-called "souls" are not yet God at the present time, but will somehow BECOME God someday. That is entirely based upon a identitification with form and change. It does not make sense in terms of the unborn timeless nature of formless awareness itself. If unborn timeless awareness is the essential nature of a so-called "soul" (jivatman), then how could it possibly 'change' into God (paramatman). It is either always is God, or it is not God and never will be God. It can't not be God now, but then later on in the future somehow become God.

In reality, this entire idea of and surrounding "God" is absurd. "God" is merely a concept, an idea. But WE... we are primordial awareness. There is no need for us to think/believe in "God". We are - already - what we are.

So this "God" nonsense simply gets in the way and obscures and distracts us from our own essential nature... which is only what will give us peace and bliss. All of the rest, all of this "God" bullshit is really the problem. It is confusion and obscuration.

So I would advise everyone to forget about splitting hairs and forget about this "God" and "souls" nonsense. It is nothing but a huge stumblimg block upon the Way.

But still, you may have to learn that the hard way, by trial and error, before you finally come to realize the simple truth of what I am saying.

You said: "the analogies of cream rising to the top of the milk, etc." -and- "I took this statement to be in this category--we're all born with the right stuff to make it happen, but a process is required."

-- Well I do NOT agree with that statement or any of that notion either. And I feel that sant mat is quite misleading in that respect (imo).

This notion is erroneous. No such "process" is required, and no effort is necessary. Effort is a kind of sickness. The self-perfected state is fundamentally inherent in awareness itself. As long as you continue to think in terms of "process" that predicated upon striving & effort, you will not be able comprehend or realize the innately self-perfected state.


You couldn't have made it more clear, tAo.

"At best, words are an honest lie."

I apologize for more words and even more so if I've mis-understood or misquoted any of you in what follows.
--------------
Huzur in Philosophy of the Masters, [PMvIVp1-60], provides 60 pages describing the Lord. He says, in my condensed and bastardized form:

"The subject of God is not comprehended, and man continues to wander in the dense forest of his intellect. God cannot be known by reasoning, the reading of books and philosophical discussions. Saints do not believe in duality or trinity. They look upon monotheism from a realistic point of view. Does the mere belief in 'One' amount to monotheism? If the matter is examined carefully then the belief in 'One' leads to a conception of trinity.
(1) the thing to be conceived
(2) the person who conceives; and
(3) the belief.
He who tries to establish monotheism by reasoning, in fact demolishes it. Mind, speech and intellect have no place here. When He was hidden in Himself He was neither one nor two. He had no form or attributes. Exactly what He was cannot be described. The hidden One can only be described when He becomes manifest. In the unmanifested state He was inconceivable, unknowable, and nameless. He was neither the Doer nor the nature, nor the Creator. There was neither creator nor the creature, nor even the creation. This state can be realised to a certain extent in deep sleep. The Saints have made this state (nameless) as their ideal. The Gurus have described the Supreme Lord or the nameless Being as Great Lord, Lord, owner, Immaculate One, Formless One, and Lord of Lords. He is self-existent and self-luminous. The Lord is beyond time and timelessness. All the creation is under His orders, yet He is not the doer. He is beyond form and formlessness. He partakes both of time and timelessness and form and formlessness. Whatever is seen in His manifestation. It is impossible to describe that great Lord, who is nameless, ever-existent, the immaculate one, and without attributes. He is beyond mind and speech. He is experienced by the soul only when the mind and intellect are stilled. He has been described as 'One. This is a clue to His form."

"The Master is indistinguishable from the Lord. He is also carefree. All fear is banished by taking refuge in Him. The Lord and the Master are one. He who know this becomes carefree himself."

"Sat Nam (True Name of God) is that truth which does not perish in the three periods of time (past, present, and future). Sat is commonly translated as Truth. It is different from truth and untruth. Truth and untruth are a pair of opposites and receive light from each other. The Gurus, however, speak of that Sat which is self-luminous and self-sufficient. Both truth and untruth do not exist there. It is that Sat which sustains both the truth and the untruth." It goes on...
-------------------
There is no section in the Philosophy of the Masters' five volumes addressing the 'soul.' The term 'soul' is used consistently throughout as being present in separate beings. Huzur points out that this spiritual Path (sant mat) is the path of spiritual unity with God. [PMvII,pxliii] Sardar points out that "Our soul is, in essence, a drop from the Great Ocean of Sat Nam--the True, Eternal, Inconceivable Lord, without beginning and without end, the Creator of all. He is the Source of all Bliss, Energy and Life."[SSp57] "The merciful Lord, seeing its [the soul's] miserable plight, came into the Master's garb to awaken it from deep slumber."[SSp70] -- This description of Lord is separate from the unmanifest state and is effectively True Name and Creator. This is a manifest form of 'God' defined above. I think it is this manifest creator form which is defined as the Master in Sant Mat and is most identified with by most people. Beyond this is unmanifest and inconceivable.

So, the statement that "every soul is potentially God" is TRUE in time-bound awareness but FAILS eventually, as all time-bound reality does. 'Potential' implies some future time. But there is only Now in karma-less action. Projection of future (potential) or past (memory) is delusional but each requires an active creator 'God' who is 'all where' and 'all when.' I can't argue this, but I think this is why the universe is manifest to us in a Trinitarian perspective (subject, object, and belief) and why Sant Mat can be appealing to many Christians.

The last stage of sant mat is the fifth region, or Sach Khand, which is the 'non-perishing Great Ocean of Truth.' Sat Nam is beyond time and is eternal. The last conception of 'God' must still be sublimated before the fifth region is reached when the soul merges with God, so to speak, in timeless awareness. This is as far as Sant Mat goes.

There are five spiritual regions defined in sant mat. Sardar defines the fifth spiritual state of a sant mat devotee as "Saint." Sardar quotes Kabir in saying a Saint (Sant) is God. "God and God's men are one, There is no distinction."[SSp4] The state where the disciple can say 'I am that' is said to be in the fourth spiritual region. However, there is still a Lord or God through the fifth region, or Sach Khand (Radha Soami - 'Lord of the Soul' and such) which is where a Master of Sant Mat is said to come from, which is as high as a sant mat master can theoretically can take their disciples. The concepts of God and Soul are still present in the fifth region. "Beyond" this state of awareness, there are still 3 more regions. One or two of these are describable but the last simply becomes impossible to conceptualize even for one who has achieved these states of awareness. Since a Master of Sant Mat is not required to be any more advanced than the fifth region, the teaching of "God" is still "necessary" to the sant mat practice and Radha Soami is that 'Lord of the Soul.' Questions about other regions have simply been blown off by the sant mat master.

Additionally, Charan Singh says, "The purpose of every Mystic in coming to this world is to save His chosen souls, to put them on the Path to God-realization, ..., to take them back... to the level of the Father."[DLp4] This is all highly conceptual and works on the suffering experienced within time-bound awareness - though the suffering is eventually known to be a false impression. Eventually, if the teaching is fulfilling its objective, time-bound awareness drops away along with the concepts. Even tuscon's very succinct comments are more than necessary. In actuality, ANY words are "bullshit," so to speak, and obscure the clear light of consciousness. Every method has its difficulties in overcoming these conceptualizations of distinctions for those who are trying to "return home:" even Sant Mat. In Sant Mat, the disciple-master relationship is never explicitly broken. Honey dripping reverence is always given by Huzur for his Master. This isn't a bad but still instills a separation between disciple, master, god, and full consciousness.
-------------------
"A Spiritual Primer" was not written by the presently accepted Master of the RSSB organization.
-------------------
I hope I don't misunderstand this but I think that what tAo (and others) point out is that all the concepts that the followers of Sant Mat are taught will eventually have to be unlearned or let go. Sant Mat, by definition, cannot undo the concept of god-master-disciple separation without one last trick that isn't written or discussed in the teachings.

Ultimately, each person stuck in time-bound awareness, who is seeking release of their eternal soul from the bonds of the material world must break from time-bound awareness by deconstructing every notion being held on to. NOW is the only 'time' in which this is done.

I think this is a good as I can do with this. Very sorry for so many words. I realize this just adds more but I have used the RSSB approved literature which seems to be consistent with most if not all of what tAo says but adds a "relative truth" in answer to Adam's question which is consistent within the sant mat framework.

"At best, words are an honest lie."
-------------------
Reference Key
SSp# - Science of the Soul, page #, by Sardar Bahadur Maharaj Jagat Singh
PMv#p# - Philosophy of the Masters, vol. #, page #, by Huzur Maharaj Sawan Singh
DLp# - Die to Live, page #, by Maharaj Charan Singh

tAo, Jayme, Tuscon,
Thanks for your comments.
Just to clarify a few points. I didn't mean that the soul had to undergo a process, but rather that there may appear to be a process undertaken in order to still the mind to be with the "clear light of consciousness." Is sitting waiting for gaps in the semi-constant mindstream really "addiction to striving?" Even you tAo, who is perhaps the most strongly committed to "abiding in spontaneous awareness" have recommended Dzogchen, which I assume involves some practice, something to do. The "soul" or awareness, or what is, may not change at all, but it appears that the condition of the mind can, which greatly affects perception and the experience of peace.


Adam,

Yes, "sitting waiting for gaps in the semi-constant mindstream" is indeed striving.

Also, apparently you missed the point of my previous post. If you will read and contemplate upon those various versions of "The Six Vajra Verses" of dzogchen that I posted a few days ago, you will see that the essential dzogchen is the self-perfected state which involves no effort, NO "practice", NO "something to do".

Adam said: "The "soul" or awareness, or what is, may not change at all, but it appears that the condition of the mind can, which greatly affects perception and the experience of peace."

-- Only as long as you identify with the content of the mind - the thoughts and sense perceptions. If you realize that awareness itself IS the "peace", then the contents of the mind (ie houghts and sense percepions and experiences), have no bearing on that peace.

The problem is that you are looking for and expecting peace in the wrong place, in and of the mind... but you will never find it there or have it there.

Peace is always already the case as primordial awareness itself. You apparently haven't understood that yet. There is nothing whatsoever to do, in order to achieve peace. Peace is prior and effortless. In fact, it is your striving for peace that is is he problem. Your mistake is that you are thinking to still the mind in order to achieve peace... but that effort will never be successful. It is the very effort itself that is obscuring the prior awareness, and therefore the "peace".

tAo, you write:
but that effort will never be successful. It is the very effort itself that is obscuring the prior awareness, and therefore the "peace".

But this is not entirely true in my experience. There are moments when I am sitting still and my mind does become quieter and I do feel a certain bliss, peacefulness. This may be the "space" you are talking about. I see meditation as giving myself the opportunity to experience this.

My point is, though, that if there is really "nothing to do," then why even mention Dzogchen or anything at all? Just becuase? You seem to be passionate about your point of view, from your many posts...perhpas there is no contradiction here, but do you see my point?

Adam,

You said that (according to your experience): "there are moments when I am sitting still and my mind does become quieter and I do feel a certain bliss, peacefulness."

-- And more specifically: "when I am sitting still and my mind does become quieter". So you see, the key here is that you are sitting still... which is basically effortless. You also say that your "mind" is "quieter", which again indicates no effort on your part.

So why then do you say: "this is not entirely true in my experience" ???

You also said: "This may be the "space" you are talking about."

-- No, I'm not talking about any "space".

"I see meditation as giving myself the opportunity to experience this."

-- Experience what? What do you mean by "this"? What "experience" are you talking about?

Also, there are many differences in type of "meditation". There is also the ACT of doing meditation, which usually requires intent and effort; and then there is the actual state of true meditation itself, which is effortless.

You said: "if there is really "nothing to do," then why even mention Dzogchen or anything at all?"

-- You don't understand. Dzogchen is not 'doing something', or something to do. Dzogchen is the effortless self-perfected state. And I have communicated that because you are confused about what dzogchen is.

"Just becuase?"

-- Just because what? What is your point?

"You seem to be passionate about your point of view from your many posts"

-- What makes you assume that I am "passionate"? I have simply communicated some information to you and other readers. There is nothing particularly "passionate" about that.

"perhpas there is no contradiction here, but do you see my point?"

-- No, I don't see your point. However, I do think the problem is that you are just not comprehending/understanding what dzogchen actually is. Instead, you are imposing your own ideas and concepts onto something that has virtually nothing to do with those ideas.

If you are interested to learn more about what dzogchen is, then I suggest that you obtain and read some books about dzogchen by my own teacher Choegyal Namkhai Norbu, who is by far the most preeminent authority on dzogchen extant today.

You may also begin by viewing a brief video clip here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHmaBRlmYNw


Thank you tAo.

tao you don't understand Sant Mat. The whole purpose of Sant Mat is to merge into God. This is what all Masters have done. They merge into God. Then they come back to the human body. Thus they are god in human form. So so simple.

WOW.....this merge into God, then coming back into human form sounds totally groovy.
The fact that it is so so simple, totally turns me on.......

It's stupidly simple, the theory. The theory is that when a person focus at the third eye with enough concentration they can eventually reach the light and sound within. At this point the astral is reached and a person will see their Guru they were initiated by.

Some people say that initiation is a joke that there is no significance whatsoever. But that is their anti-sant mat beliefs no biggie.

But the theory goes that once we reach the astral there are ten sounds, and that the loud bell sound and various other ascending sounds leads the practitioner back to the source of his being. It is God's way of leading us back to Him. This light and sound is called the shabd or sound current or the Nam, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Kalma, Isme-i-Azam, Sultan-ul-Azkar, Kalma, Logos, Music of Spheres, Word, Bani, Gurbani, Living Water, Audible Life Stream, Tao or whatever religious name you want to call it.

This audible life stream is the true form of all Masters. It projects the form of the Master to bait the disciple to ascend to the higher regions of his being.

Eventually this light and sound leads the soul (consciousness) out of anything of matter and into more spiritual realms. From there the soul eventually goes on up to reach "nothing." Awareness not of light or of mayaic things, but of his actual true self. This is like inverting attention through all the various narrowed perceptions, eventually leading out of them, into infinite perception of God.

Right now my awareness is on my five senses and the world. But my actual awareness is not anything physical. It is associated and knotted with mind as of now though.

Sant Mat clearly describes that all Saints go through this process of shedding body after body until there is no more bodies left but only the supreme original self, which is of course all indescribable.

So to say that the Masters of Sant Mat are the only Shabd incarnates is right.

They are the only ones. But they EXPLICITLY teach others to follow this PATH OF THE MASTERS.

That God realization is a birth right TO ALL of any caste creed and so on.

So to say that the disciples of the Master will remain drops while the Master a ocean forever is the highest of nonsense.

God can literally do anything he can manifest in anyone Sant Mat teaches this. He brings souls to his level through his Sons the Sat Gurus.

If your just going to say that SGSJM is just a normal human being you are wrong. He is human+God. He has the ability to withdraw his attention from this limited world to unfathomable heights.

Ask any Sant Mat Guru about reaching God. He will teach you how. He will tell you how to reach the True Home. He will direct you to your inner guru who is actually the Shabd taking the form of the Master.

Jesus Christ taught all this as well. You can take this information or leave it but don't distort it. Mankind distorts the words of the Saints far enough anyways.

Sid,
You have done a good job of parroting the Sant Mat books, but, and this is a big but...How do you know any of it is true? What if it isn't?

Sid says:

"tao you don't understand Sant Mat."

-- You mean that after about 30 years of my being an RS initiate and practicing shabda yoga meditation, reading and studying ALL of the various sant mat books and literature several times over, spending many lengthy visits to India and the Dera, and speaking with the guru - both in formal satsang meetings and also privately one-on-one - on many different occasions... that I still somehow (according to you) "don't understand Sant Mat"???

My goodness, imagine that!!! You must be more expert at sant mat than I.

Sid said: "The whole purpose of Sant Mat is to merge into God."

-- Is that so? Then Sid, please do tell us WHO is it that is going to "merge into God"?

* And how is it that this someone could somehow be separate from God, so as to require them to "merge into God"?

* And who and where is the one that merges?

* And just where exactly is this so-called "God" that (according to you), one must "merge into"?


"This is what all Masters have done."

-- Have they really? And just how do you know that? Please enlighten us. I am sure that many others in this forum would like to know, to see the evidence.

"They merge into God. Then they come back to the human body. Thus they are god in human form."

-- I see... hmmm. But again, WHO are "they"???

* And how do you know that "they merge into God" and then "they come back to the human body"???

* And why are "they" any more "god in human form", than anyone else???


"It's stupidly simple, the theory."

-- Well since you seem to know so much about the simplicity of sant mat, please explain all these things and answer these questions for the benefit of the rest of us.

"when a person focus at the third eye with enough concentration they can eventually reach the light and sound within."

-- Who and where is this "person" who is supposed to "focus at the third eye"? And where is "within"? Also, these are just words. Can you please show where this "person" is located?

"the astral is reached and a person will see their Guru they were initiated by"

-- And how is this seeing any different than seeing anything else? Sounds like you are talking about seeing mental images, seeing transitory thoughts in the so-called 'mind'.

"Some people say that initiation [...] there is no significance whatsoever."

-- Then could you please explain, what exactly is the "signficance"?

"that is their anti-sant mat beliefs"

-- That is incorrect. Sant mat is the so-called "beliefs". And those others who do not believe, simply have no belief. There is no such "anti-sant mat beliefs". There is only belief, or no belief. Any fool knows that.

"once we reach the astral there are ten sounds, and that the loud bell sound and various other ascending sounds leads the practitioner back to the source of his being."

-- OK... but WHO is this "the practioner"? Where is this "practioner"? And just as importantly, how could anyone ever possibly be separate from "the source of his being" ??? This notion makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And clearly, it is duality.

"It is God's way of leading us back to Him."

-- And do tell, how are we apart that we somehow need to be lead "back to Him"?

"This light and sound is called the shabd or sound current or the Nam, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Kalma, Isme-i-Azam, Sultan-ul-Azkar, Kalma, Logos, Music of Spheres, Word, Bani, Gurbani, Living Water, Audible Life Stream, Tao or whatever religious name you want to call it. This audible life stream is the true form of all Masters. It projects the form of the Master to bait the disciple to ascend to the higher regions of his being."

-- Please spare us the details and the dogma and the preaching Sid. Most of us here are quite familair with all of this stuff and much more.

"Awareness not of light or of mayaic things, but of his actual true self. This is like inverting attention through all the various narrowed perceptions, eventually leading out of them, into infinite perception of God."

-- What is "the true self"? Where is this "true self"??? Who is it that is going to have this "infinite perception of God"???

"my actual awareness is not anything physical. It is associated and knotted with mind as of now though."

-- Is that so? Well, how do you know that?

"Sant Mat clearly describes..."

-- All sorts of descriptions abound. That proves nothing.

"all Saints go through this process of shedding body after body until there is no more bodies left but only the supreme original self, which is of course all indescribable."

-- And how could any "bodies" be an impediment to "the supreme original self" ???

"So to say that the Masters of Sant Mat are the only Shabd incarnates is right. They are the only ones."

-- And how do you know that? Either ALL beings are "incarnates", or none are. There is no exclusive partiality possible. Either God is ALL, or God is none. Any other notion is simply ignorance.

"That God realization is a birth right..."

-- And do tell, WHAT is "God realization"???

Also, to say that disciples are merely "drops" and "the Master is an ocean forever", is obvious duality and avidya (ignorance).

"God can literally do anything he can manifest in anyone Sant Mat teaches this."

-- No, incorrect. Sant mat teaches that God is "manifest" in and as... ALL.

"He brings souls to his level through his Sons the Sat Gurus."

-- This mere parroting of dogma.

"to say that SGSJM is just a normal human being you are wrong. He is human+God."

-- That is your belief. But unfortunately Sid, you have no idea, no clue as to what you are talking about.

"He has the ability to withdraw his attention from this limited world to unfathomable heights."

-- HOW do you know that??? Please show us the evidence. Many of us would like to see it.

"Ask any Sant Mat Guru about reaching God. He will teach you how."

-- Thanks... but I don't need to be taught any such thing. Maybe you do though, and thats certainly your choice.

"He will direct you to your inner guru"

-- Thanks... but I am already one with my "inner guru".

"Jesus Christ taught all this as well."

-- Did he? How do you know that???

You can take this information or leave it but don't distort it.

--- Fyi Sid, anyone can do anything they want with information. They can distort it, or not. And you can do absolutely nothing about it. So get used to it. Because you have no control over it. And neither does RSSB.


-Tao I don't know what you've done. But lets see what you've wrote below:

Sid says:

"tao you don't understand Sant Mat."

-- You mean that after about 30 years of my being an RS initiate and practicing shabda yoga meditation, reading and studying ALL of the various sant mat books and literature several times over, spending many lengthy visits to India and the Dera, and speaking with the guru - both in formal satsang meetings and also privately one-on-one - on many different occasions... that I still somehow (according to you) "don't understand Sant Mat"???

My goodness, imagine that!!! You must be more expert at sant mat than I.

-Lets see what you have said below

Sid said: "The whole purpose of Sant Mat is to merge into God."

-- Is that so? Then Sid, please do tell us WHO is it that is going to "merge into God"?

WHO is going to do this? Your current awareness. What is awareness? It is the thing that is looking through the physical eyes and perceiving through the physical senses. This is awareness. That which is feeling and seeing. But our individual awareness or "soul" is limited to our limited current perceptions. It is confined to the body and mind. It is just a fraction of the totality of all awareness. I am not aware of what you are aware of. But God is all of the awareness that exists, which is infinite in all ways, that circumscribes everyone and everything. He is the Super Soul that takes drops of his awareness and gives it a body to identify with. But those drops are still him but they are covered. The drops themselves are not aware of the totality of awareness. They are just identified with where their attention currently is: the body and mind.


* And how is it that this someone could somehow be separate from God, so as to require them to "merge into God"?

Well think of it this way: Our awareness currently is only on our physical body. Does that mean that our awareness is merged into the totality of awareness that perceives all things? Of course not.

Look at your finger. The spirit in your finger can touch and feel what the finger comes into contact with. But it is not feeling what is going on in the other fingers. But the person who is moving the fingers is experiencing the totality of his entire body including those two fingers.

The fingers are merged into the person but only aware of their respectful location.

In the same way our awareness is like a small aspect of the totality of the body of God. It is only aware of what it feels and experiences through its physical body. But God is aware of all the bodies and everything else.

In truth God is controlling everything. Just like the person is controlling the fingers. He can even withdraw his attention from the fingers completely to the eye center for example. In that case the finger is numb even if it is pricked. The finger becomes lifeless.

Our awareness is currently experiencing through the physical senses as I've said. But if it inverts attention inwards enough then it wont be aware of the body anymore but can merge into the underlying awareness of all.

It's like seeing the big picture. We are usually just seeing a narrow view, but there is also a larger perception without limits.


* And who and where is the one that merges?

The who is you that is experiencing yourself writing posts. It is your awareness that is the who. What is the you? well meditate as Sant Mat says and you'll experience yourself as you really are, not the body but something indescribable.

The one that merges is in the location of the body. He is currently aware of the five senses and the world around him. To merge into the supreme being means to take our awareness out of the location of the body and in this way the location of the awareness or the "who" you mentioned becomes locationless, it comes to meet the locationless Lord. It is still there. Just by leaving the physical body doesn't mean that awareness is annihilated. It is the individual awareness that goes away. It still exists but in a unlimited aspect.


* And just where exactly is this so-called "God" that (according to you), one must "merge into"?

As I said above God is locationless. This is because he is everywhere. When we stop identifying with the body by taking our awareness out of it we end up nowhere in earthly understanding. We come to actually become everywhere all at once which isn't any exact location, mind boggling right?


"This is what all Masters have done."

-- Have they really? And just how do you know that? Please enlighten us. I am sure that many others in this forum would like to know, to see the evidence.


As I hope you have noticed by now I'm just parroting Sant Mat theory. I didn't make it up. It is the creators of Sant Mat that have the privilege of seeing God and all that he does and who and how he brings souls to himself.

It is the Masters themselves that Sant Mat urges practitioners to have faith in when they say that this is what Masters do.

Yes there are a lot of liars out there and the thought of them makes the endeavor of faith very difficult.

But Sant Mat doesn't expect us to know everything at once. It teaches us to have some faith but not believe blindly. We have faith that we are doing the right thing, but we generally don't have 100 percent faith. We are to tread the path to God realization ourselves.

If we want to say that the Masters are dishonest and that they aren't real in any way or fashion then that's fine.

Some people won't believe the words of them, and where's the problem with that? Others feel that they sense that the Masters are honest in their attempt to teach and guide others.

I myself believe in God and his infinite capabilities. I also feel that Sant Mat is something that he WOULD do for us. I feel that he would permit people to realize him while alive in the human body, and that those people teach others to do that same thing.


"They merge into God. Then they come back to the human body. Thus they are god in human form."

-- I see... hmmm. But again, WHO are "they"???

They is their awareness that goes from the human body to the infinite body of God. Their awareness expands to the highest level which is like a drop merging into an ocean-Our limited false illusionary egos dissolving so that there is nothing separating our awareness with awareness of all.

When there is nothing that our awareness is aware of in the sense of mind and maya, then there is nothing else to be aware of except the totality of awareness, which is "merging into God."


* And how do you know that "they merge into God" and then "they come back to the human body"???


Well that's how meditation works. We withdraw our awareness or spirit or soul current or whatever you want to call it from our mind and bodies and thus we achieve limitless awareness. After that the practitioner comes back to the awareness of the physical mind and body again to function in the physical world. Thus the practitioner is God descending to the human form, or as people like to say the person is "God in human form."

How do I know that this person has done this? Well Sant Mat says that people can do this and can help others do it as well. The belief of specific people being able to do it is all based on faith at the point in my life. But I don't plan on leaving it there. I plan on treading this path myself as much as I can in this life.


* And why are "they" any more "god in human form", than anyone else???


Well in the end we are all God in human form, but we have forgotten this. We at one time were not aware of the physical body or any other body, but were bodyless. We were JUST awareness that was infinite. But then we started associating with things such as the mind and stayed like that for a good while. And thus we are now in the human form down from God. So we are in actuality God in human form.

It's just that we haven't withdrawn our attention to God in such a long time that we really truly do identify ourselves with this physical body and reality only.

If we were like the Mystic Adepts we would be going to God and coming back here to the human form very often. We would even remember the experience. But someone who hasn't done that at all in their life is more associated with their limited selves than their unlimited selves. They may have been going body to body for millions perhaps billions of years.

But the Saints go to God so often that we can conviniently call them God in Human form.

It's like this: If you see someone happy 95 percent of the time then you can call him a happy person. Even when he is unhappy for 5 percent of the time we will still call him a happy person on those occations. That 5 percent isn't near the totality of who he really is.

But someone who is happy only 5 percent of the time doesn't really deserve that name in the times when he is unhappy OR happy. He is happy once upon a blue moon and it's insignificant compared to his general mood.

So the Saints are merged into God not just once in their lifetime but many times.

People who haven't merged their awareness into the totality of God even once in their lives really have no experience on the subject except the time when they were with him before they even descended below par Brahm millions to billions of years ago. They don't even remember that or know that it ever happened.


"It's stupidly simple, the theory."

-- Well since you seem to know so much about the simplicity of sant mat, please explain all these things and answer these questions for the benefit of the rest of us.

"when a person focus at the third eye with enough concentration they can eventually reach the light and sound within."

-- Who and where is this "person" who is supposed to "focus at the third eye"? And where is "within"? Also, these are just words. Can you please show where this "person" is located?


This person I'm referring to is your awareness that is currently only aware of the physical body and mind. This person is awareness, it is your attention. You can't see attention because it is you. You are that attention that decides to think about something or decides to move your legs.

Where is this "within?" Going "within" is done by focusing the attention or awareness or "person" in the eyes. This person is dispersed in all parts of the body and is dispersed in thoughts of the world. If this person or awareness can just focus on seeing the darkness with eyes closed with all 9 apertures of perception below closed, then inner vision within, through that darkness, can proceed.

Once we are focused our attention only in that darkness like Christ had said "thine eye be single" then our whole body shall be full of light.

That means that this "person" or "awareness" becomes aware of light instead of the senses or physical body and so on.

Eventually by deeper concentration we see the Master that initiated us. That Master we find has also a astral body as we do. From there even more bodies are taken off. Eventually the body of the Master that we are "aware" of becomes bodyless in the highest stage. This is when our awareness is aware of the Supreme Being that has no form of any type.

"the astral is reached and a person will see their Guru they were initiated by"

-- And how is this seeing any different than seeing anything else? Sounds like you are talking about seeing mental images, seeing transitory thoughts in the so-called 'mind'.

Well you can try to say that if you want. You can say that the Astral form of the Master is a joke and that you know everything about it. Whatever it is you will never know until it is reached.

All that I know is that Masters have often emphasized that this astral form is not just formed by our imagination. It is beyond our imagination. It can even talk to us and GUIDE us. It maybe just our higher self but why ignore our higher self? It has come to us in the form of our Master so why reject it? It knows a lot too. The Masters often tell us that the Astral form of the Master can answer ENQUIRIES.

That we don't need the outer Master at all once we've reached the inner one.

It's not just something we think in our head and then form with out imagination.

The sayings of one Saint:

"When the disciples reach the Astral Plane, they are
Astral Spirits, and they gaze in the eyes of the
Master. This is a stage in spiritual progress, known
as Dhyan (contemplation.)"

"When disciples see the Master, internally, they are
surprised at his power and beauty. She says life
below, on the physical plane is like "excrements," by
comparison."

"The FORM and CAUSE of the Master is
his Radiant Form. That form is used to pull us up to
higher mystic planes."


It is there in the Astral to guide the soul out of its confinements to lower levels of awareness and its lack of freedom of being confined to lower bodies.

To talk of this stuff and to have never met the radiant form of the Master is pointless.

Here is the words of one who actually has done this, Sant Kirpal Singh Ji Maharaj:

"This relationship of love between the Satguru and his shishya, the Godman and his disciple, covers many phases and developments...With his greater effort and the greater grace from the Master, the disciple makes increased headway in his inner sadhanas, leading finally to complete transcendence of bodily consciousness. When this transcendence has been achieved, he beholds his Guru waiting in his Radiant Form to receive and guide his spirit on the inner planes. Now, for the first time, he beholds him in his true glory, and realizes the unfathomable dimensions of his greatness. Henceforth he knows him to be more than human and his heart overflows with songs of praise and humble devotion. The higher he ascends in his spiritual journey, the more insistent is he in his praise, for the more intensely does he realize that he whom he once took to be a friend, is not merely a friend but God Himself come down to raise him up to Himself. This bond of love, with its development by degrees, becomes the mirror of his inward progress, moving as it does, from the finite to the infinite.....once it has reached the point where the disciple discovers is teacher in his luminous glory within himself, all analogies are shattered and all comparisons forever left behind; all that remains is a gesture, and then silence...."


"Some people say that initiation [...] there is no significance whatsoever."

-- Then could you please explain, what exactly is the "signficance"?


Well God works behind the Saints first of all. Second of all the Saints have been commissioned by God to give initiation. Third of all God has made it so that those who have been initiated by one of his Sons from then on have the Sat Guru waiting for them in their radiant form at the third eye. From then on God is watching and guiding the soul and making sure that he/she makes it back to the True Home Sach Khand asap. This means that Karmas may be distributed differently so that the soul learns the correct lessons needed to purify him/her to the extent that they can be worthy and pure enough to be successful on the path.


Christ had once told Peter "Whomsoever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven," urging Peter to continue his spiritual work as his successor.

This quote means that by getting initiated on earth the disciple is destined to reach the True Home.

It's only the beginning though. The disciple HAS to do his part. If he doesn't then a whole entire host of different things could happen. Without following the path and by rejecting the Master anything could happen.

St. Paul mentioned that he turned two disciples over to Satan, so they could learn the lesson of blasphemy. This means that initiation is no joke.

The words of a Saint:

"The Master, actually, places
his Radiant Form within us, at the time of spiritual
initiation."


"that is their anti-sant mat beliefs"

-- That is incorrect. Sant mat is the so-called "beliefs". And those others who do not believe, simply have no belief. There is no such "anti-sant mat beliefs". There is only belief, or no belief. Any fool knows that.


They believe that Sant Mat is incorrect. If they believed that it is correct then they wouldn't be talking about how initiation means nothing.

If they believe that initiation isn't what the Masters say it is, then their beliefs on the subject are Anti-Sant Mat.

If they had "no-belief" as you mention the they wouldn't have said initiation is a joke. They wouldn't say that the sant mat theory is false in the department of initiations.

If they had "no-belief" then they would have no belief whatsoever on the topic. But to say that initiation is a joke is to have a belief that goes against all things Sant Mat.

"once we reach the astral there are ten sounds, and that the loud bell sound and various other ascending sounds leads the practitioner back to the source of his being."

-- OK... but WHO is this "the practioner"? Where is this "practioner"? And just as importantly, how could anyone ever possibly be separate from "the source of his being" ??? This notion makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And clearly, it is duality.

The practitioner is the awareness that goes from being aware of his physical body to being only aware of the light and sound within. Its location is from the physical body to the third eye to the light and sound within that it perceives. This awareness has faculties of hearing and seeing beyond the physical senses.

The source of our being is simply where our attention has fallen from. The source of our being is where all attention exists, all of it. It is the source of all of our beings.

But from that total awareness we became aware of limited things such as the physical body. The source of our being is awareness. But when we descend from being aware of that infinite awareness we become identified with something such as the mind. When we revert this and become aware instead of the body but of awareness itself then we have made our awareness aware of the source of all awareness.

We are in duality now. We are aware of duality. I am sid you are tao. That is the duality we're in. But to withdraw my attention from sid to the attention of all attention that is God then there is no more sid and tao. There is awareness of sid tao sky earth good evil Sach Khand and all else in the infinite sky of God all at once.

Reaching the source of our being means being aware of awareness itself. Currently we are aware of the gross physical form of the body. That is from far from being aware of awareness. If we are to detach our awareness from this physical body and world we will find our awareness in the astral body and world. If we detach from that body we will find our awareness is in the causal body and world, and so on. If we take all of the illusionary covers off our awareness then we become aware of the Ocean of Awareness which is the source of all of our beings.


"It is God's way of leading us back to Him."

-- And do tell, how are we apart that we somehow need to be lead "back to Him"?

It's because we are awareness that is aware of a the physical body. God is awareness not of a physical body he is awareness of everything. It is a state of existence so to say. It is a state of consciousness. But try not to pigeonhole it too much.

We have to be led back to Him because we aren't aware of him we are aware of the physical body. If we become aware of awareness itself then we find our true identity.

It is like we don't know ourselves. We only are aware of our bodies. But if we introvert attention to our awareness itself then we can understand this better. It feels funny and futile explaining this stuff in words.

He leads us back to being aware of just awareness or Him by our attention gradually ascending to higher more subtle realms of reality until our attention reaches the subtlest level which is God. It isn't even subtle there, it is nameless of course.

"This light and sound is called the shabd or sound current or the Nam, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Kalma, Isme-i-Azam, Sultan-ul-Azkar, Kalma, Logos, Music of Spheres, Word, Bani, Gurbani, Living Water, Audible Life Stream, Tao or whatever religious name you want to call it. This audible life stream is the true form of all Masters. It projects the form of the Master to bait the disciple to ascend to the higher regions of his being."

-- Please spare us the details and the dogma and the preaching Sid. Most of us here are quite familiar with all of this stuff and much more.

"Awareness not of light or of mayaic things, but of his actual true self. This is like inverting attention through all the various narrowed perceptions, eventually leading out of them, into infinite perception of God."

-- What is "the true self"? Where is this "true self"??? Who is it that is going to have this "infinite perception of God"???


The true self is awareness. Our true self (awareness) is currently aware only of the five senses. If we withdraw our awareness from the bodies then we can meet the actual self (awareness).

The location of this true self is outside the physical senses and outside the astral causal bodies. Of course there is even more spiritual regions to cross before the final coverings are removed to reveal pure awareness of awareness.

You say who is it that is going to have this infinite perception of God. Well this who is your awareness your ego that is associated with your mind and body. Your awareness is what withdraws from being aware of the five senses to being aware of infinite awareness.


"my actual awareness is not anything physical. It is associated and knotted with mind as of now though."

-- Is that so? Well, how do you know that?

Because I am currently aware of my physical senses. I know that because I simply am aware of them. I am aware of this physical experience because I'm experiencing it. But the "me" that is experiencing it isn't anything remotely physical, it's "me." I am something that experiences things that are physical. I experience the physical processes. I see things in my mind, but the "I" is just "I" which is indescribable.

Objects of this world are physical. But awareness or consciousness is not. That's just my feeling maybe it's not yours.


"Sant Mat clearly describes..."

-- All sorts of descriptions abound. That proves nothing.

"all Saints go through this process of shedding body after body until there is no more bodies left but only the supreme original self, which is of course all indescribable."

-- And how could any "bodies" be an impediment to "the supreme original self" ???

Because those bodies are what the practitioner is aware of. Being aware of bodies is different from being aware of the original self which is bodiless and descriptionless just as awareness is. Putting attention on the supreme original self is putting awareness on the substance of awareness itself, which is indescribably of course.


"So to say that the Masters of Sant Mat are the only Shabd incarnates is right. They are the only ones."

-- And how do you know that? Either ALL beings are "incarnates", or none are. There is no exclusive partiality possible. Either God is ALL, or God is none. Any other notion is simply ignorance.

Like I said before we are all technically Shabd incarnates. At one time we were aware of no physical body but only of the supreme awareness that is God. This was before we were born millions and billions of years ago. But that was a long time ago.

But Saints leave their physical bodies lifeless and go back to the Lord very often and thus we call them Shabd incarnates because they are merging into the Shabd frequently.

Like I said a person who is happy 5 percent of the time is not called a happy person in any occasion. But a person who is happy 95 percent of the time is called a happy person any time.

Is it not respectful to call someone a Shabd incarnate if he is frequently putting his awareness on the level of the Supreme Being while most other people haven't done that for AGES?


"That God realization is a birth right..."

-- And do tell, WHAT is "God realization"???

God realization is a state of consciousness where a person takes his awareness from being aware of the physical body to being aware of awareness itself. This awareness they become aware of is connected to all awareness.

Also, to say that disciples are merely "drops" and "the Master is an ocean forever", is obvious duality and avidya (ignorance).

Well, in truth even the Master is a drop. I say drop because his awareness is currently only aware of his physical body. But he has the ABILITY to withdraw his awareness to awareness itself, or the ocean.

The disciples are called drops because they are fairly accustomed to being only aware of the physical body. But the Master is able to expand his consciousness to such high realms and even to the level of the Creator.


"God can literally do anything he can manifest in anyone Sant Mat teaches this."

-- No, incorrect. Sant mat teaches that God is "manifest" in and as... ALL.

What I mean is that God can manifest into anybodies awareness. The awareness that is the level of God can manifest into anybodies awareness that he so chooses. God is of course in and as ALL but to be AWARE in and as ALL is God manifesting in our awareness.

What God is is one thing, but to be aware of the thing that God is is another. I am Sid. What I am is awareness of Sid. God is God. He is awareness of God. To have God manifest in Sid would mean for the awareness of God to be in the awareness of Sid. So that the awareness of Sid switches to being aware of God.

"He brings souls to his level through his Sons the Sat Gurus."

-- This mere parroting of dogma.

"to say that SGSJM is just a normal human being you are wrong. He is human+God."

-- That is your belief. But unfortunately Sid, you have no idea, no clue as to what you are talking about.

Hmm I think it's YOU who has no idea or clue what I'm talking about.

So many questions you ask that you can't simply answer for yourself. I had to answer all your inquiries and before I did that you say I am clueless. You don't even know what I'm talking about how can I be clueless? At least read my rebuttal and comment on it will ya?


"He has the ability to withdraw his attention from this limited world to unfathomable heights."

-- HOW do you know that??? Please show us the evidence. Many of us would like to see it.

This is the theory. It isn't something I'm in possession of knowing. We start with faith then all questions find answers in Anami Desh.

"Ask any Sant Mat Guru about reaching God. He will teach you how."

-- Thanks... but I don't need to be taught any such thing. Maybe you do though, and thats certainly your choice.


"He will direct you to your inner guru"

-- Thanks... but I am already one with my "inner guru".

"Jesus Christ taught all this as well."

-- Did he? How do you know that???

You can take this information or leave it but don't distort it.

--- Fyi Sid, anyone can do anything they want with information. They can distort it, or not. And you can do absolutely nothing about it. So get used to it. Because you have no control over it. And neither does RSSB.


Of course they can. Don't take my words so seriously keep on distorting to your hearts content if that's what you're doing. But sowing bad seeds means you'll have to reap bad crops!

Radha Soami Brother.

Also remember that Sant Mat says that ANYONE can become a Saint. Some Saints come directly from Sach Khand and others were of this world like anyone else but got the Grace of God to reach the level of Anami Purush. There destiney was to come down here to maya and get lost for a good while and then find their way out in their lifetime.

Tucson said:

Sid,
You have done a good job of parroting the Sant Mat books, but, and this is a big but...How do you know any of it is true? What if it isn't?


Well my life experience has caused me to have a good amount of faith in it. I cannot know if it's not true, ever. It isn't something to be disproved in fact. It requires experience. And if the experience doesn't come then we can't say that it isn't true we can only say that either it isn't true or that we just didn't get the grace. But we cannot choose just one answer for we have no proof.

Though I CAN only know if it is true if God permits it. But to disprove it is impossible IMO.

Is this the Sid that was banned, several months back?

I probably was banned because I'm too pro-Sant Mat for the atheists to handle.

So when will Tao reply?

Belief is not reality. We believe because we want to believe. We want the fairytale to be true and we want the happy ending. But at the heart of Sant Mat is a lie, a huge, all encompassing lie. The Master is not God and there is no Sach Khand. Many will spend their lives not realizing this. Fortunately others have understood this reality and have left.

Belief is the first step. If we don't believe that we can ride a bike for example then we'll never try. We believe because we want to reach the Supreme Being.

You can be as negative as you want about Sant Mat but the Saints are a much greater testament than you. I think I'm going to listen to the Masters.

Some people try to tread the path but meditation just doesn't work for them. They lack faith so they get nowhere. They feel that by getting initiated their part is done. Never has there been a Master who did not have to go through a period of intense longing. Even the born Saints have to endure life just as we do for a very considerable amount of time.

It is true that meditation is not easy. The heart of Sant Mat is doing the meditation which is not a lie or fairytale at all. I'm sure very few people on this site can "die daily."

They probably don't even believe in a soul that goes on after death, let alone leaving the physical body through meditation. But leaving the body at will is something that even non Satsangis do. There are so many people who meditate and are not following RS.

The heart of Sant Mat is also the Master of course. If you don't believe that SGSJM is a Mystic Adept then that's just you.

You probably have a poor understanding of the Masters. They aren't God but they can meditate and cast off their false selves and reach God.

And you say there's no Sach Khand. Well that's contrary to what all the Saints say. I have faith in the Saints because I have faith in God. And I believe that God WOULD have Saints helping people to reverse their attention inwards to find Him. I see no other way.

There is no other way at all. People will just continue to be worldly forever if there isn't someone to tell them of God.

But if it allows you to sleep at night then keep on thinking that the Path of the Masters is a lie. And I'm sure that those that have "understood this reality" have not understood anything at all.

Sid,
Consider this dialogue if you will:

S- Do you exist?”

T- Noumenally I feel that I am, but I cannot find myself. And the same goes for you and every living being.

S- Why is that?

T- For the same reason that keeps us from seeing our own face.

S- But you can see my face, and I can see yours.

T-Nonsense, perfect nonsense. We see nothing of the kind. What we see when we look at one another and at anything we can see at all, including our own feet, is just our object. And our object is part of ourself as its subject. Nobody can see us, because we have no objective existence whatsoever, and we cannot see anybody else because they have none. All of us can only see our objectifications, whatever they may be.

S- We do not exist as objects?

T- Of course not. No thing exists as an object. That is why there is no such thing as an entity. How could there be? Space and time are purely mental concepts. Where else could an entity extend itself?

S- Then no object is independent?

T- None is dependent either. ‘Others’ are yourself as whatever you ‘both’ are, and their apparent otherness as your objects is entirely a part of your phenomenal mind. Phenomenal existence or being, noumenally is not-being. Absolutely, it can be called as-it-isness.

S- I begin to understand!

T- Of course you do! ‘Is that all it is?’, as the monk said, laughing to his master when he suddenly understood, or ‘found himself awake’, as they put it.

S- No thing is..in its own right? Not even us?

T- No thing. Therefore there is no ‘us’, for ‘we’ are only one another’s objects as ‘us’.

S- Then in what way are we?

T- Just total objective absence, which is all Anami Purush could be.

S- All of us are that?

T- All of us are not ‘that’, not ‘this’, not any concept at all. Nothing mysterious about it. Nothing holy. Just phenomenal notness, and the absence of the concept of that notness.

S- Then we have no positive being whatsoever?

T-Positivity and negativity are phenomenal concepts. We are not conceivable at all.

S- Then who lives?

T- You cannot find the doer of any deed, the thinker of any thought, the perceiver of any perception. The un-findable is all that we are , and the un-findable is the found. Everything is no "thing". There is no self or other, desire, anger, hatred, love or victory, only the error of conceptual thought processes.

"I think it's YOU who has no idea or clue what I'm talking about."

-- I actually 'wrote the book' on what you think and pretend you are "talking about". And that was even before you were ever born.

Your immature arrogance and your endless pontificating and parroting of dogma amounts to mere words. You clearly have no experience of that which you loudly preach to others. You were kicked out of here for that very reason. Now you have returned again, and you are repeatedly posting the same identical narrow-minded fundamentalist jive all over again. You don't belong here because you are not willing to consider other viewpoints. You are here only to fill up this comment forum with endless repetitious preaching of narrow-minded and ignorant fundamentalist religious dogma. You should go elsewhere and preach to other RS followers who still believe as you do. You don't belong here. Except that they are not discussing such things on the net because their master has forbid initiated satsangis from doing so. So obviously you are also a hypocrite as well, because your comments are in direct opposition to the current RS master's prohibition against the preaching or discussing of sant mat on the internet.


"So many questions you ask that you can't simply answer for yourself. I had to answer all your inquiries and before I did that you say I am clueless. You don't even know what I'm talking about how can I be clueless?"

-- You ARE clueless because you completely fail to see why I asked you those questions. I did not ask you because I am somehow bereft of the answers, nor because I am seeking to know the answers. I asked them so that you would inquire into yourself. But instead, as I suspected you would, you merely parroted another huge load of empty words and concepts. You just proved my point and revealed how deeply entrenched in fundamentalism and pseudo-mystical dogma you really are, and for all to see.


"At least read my rebuttal and comment on it will ya?"

-- Sorry little grasshopper, but I don't jump for those games. I'm just waiting to see how long Brian will tolerate your game this time around.

I'll end this uselss debate by quoting Jeremy, whom I feel has really nailed it:

"Belief is not reality. We believe because we want to believe. But at the heart of Sant Mat is a lie, a huge, all encompassing lie. The Master is not God and there is no Sach Khand. Many will spend their lives not realizing this. Fortunately others have understood this reality and have left."


Ok so you admit defeat. That was really too easy I must say. All you've said here is "you're wrong you don't know anything I've wrote a book...."

WEll if you have so much experience then teach me about why my rebuttal is wrong.

You asked those stupid questions.

"-- Who and where is this "person" who is supposed to "focus at the third eye"? And where is "within"? Also, these are just words. Can you please show where this "person" is located?"


This stupid talk from you NEEDS explanation please. I replied to what you said, I told you who that "person" is. That person is the the thing that is restricted to only feeling seeing and so on what his physical body is limited to.

Where is within? Within starts at the third eye. So instead of all the body parts and senses and the world and so forth, that "person" or awareness collects at the third eye and begins to perceive the inner worlds.

You could so easily give your own ideas but instead you put yourself on some pedestal feeling that pearls are not to be shown to swine.

Well if you actually know anything then don't hesitate to reply to what I've said. And throwing links at people doesn't help.

I feel that I replied to you correctly.

I basically wrote that our awareness is aware of the physcial senses and that Masters have the ability to take their awareness and put it on "nothing" which is consequently God.

Don't think that I didn't know what you were doing. You were trying to ask questions that YOU THOUGHT have no answers. Well I answered you and now you have no rebuttal so you try to dodge the entire post I gave you.

You kept on asking stupid things and I gave real answers.

You kept on saying "who are you who are you where are you" all this NONSENSE.

I EASILY told you the answer to those questions. I am awareness, currently aware of the physical reality through my physical senses.

My location in relation to the creation is in the physical body perceiving things through the senses.

Do "I" have to be physical? What's your deal with asking "where are you?" Am I supposed to be able to point to "me?" Well then that shows your lack of understanding. "I" am not anywhere to be seen. All you "see" is the same thing you'll see when I'm dead, which is this physical body.

When I'm dead you'll see nothing different but "I" have left it. "I" was in the body but "I" left it to elsewhere. I may have went to another body or to some hell or some heaven or maybe I went beyond all that to absolutely "NOTHING," a "VOID."

Is that too hard for your intellect? To understand what a VOID is? It is the goal of Sant Mat. To reach the void.

I don't have experience in leaving the body but all I'm doing is giving you the Sant Mat teachings. You constantly say that you are special and that you know that Sant Mat is false and so on. Well I've proven you wrong.

Sid,

Perhaps what I posted above was a bit abstruse, which was my intention..to take the mind to a place where it sort of hits the wall and apperception ensues. Anyway, I will try a different tack.

All of your beliefs are based on the assumption that there is some self or object that can become enlightened or liberated. That is what tAo is addressing when he asks you "who" and "where" you are etc.

The following is what I have found to be true, but it is just an intuition condensed into concepts and, as such, it ultimately is untrue because reality or absolute is not conceptual, conceivable or describable. I wrote this years ago and occasionally post it here, so old timers need not go any further.

I was involved with RSSB (Sant Mat) for over two decades. I attended satsang for the first time in 1968 and was initiated in 1970. I have since found that following a spiritual path has no particular relevance to 'understanding' which can occur at any time under any circumstance.

The obstacle to 'understanding' or 'awakening' is a thin veil, a trick of perception that is a result of our habits and conditioning.

A spiritual path is based on the premise of an individual that needs to go through a variety of disciplines and correct behaviors in order to purify and get rid of the 'I' or ego, and then achieve reunion with God.

To follow a path or discipline tends to reinforce the sense of 'self' because there is this goal of liberation or salvation to be achieved BY it. The irony is there is no self, no "thing" to achieve anything.

The fundamental point that is missed is that the seeker, at every stage of this quest, is already what he/she is seeking. There is no way to make the seeker any more what they already are.

It is a matter of looking in the right direction, which is no direction at all, to see this: to see what you think you are is just a phantom, a dreamed character in a play you are playing a role in. There is no individual. No separate soul. No ego to overcome.

There are no particular qualifications for perceiving this because Awareness is perfectly present in all circumstances and has no need for special diets, disciplines or gurus.

Awareness is always present HERE whether one is loading the dishwasher or experiencing a grand vison of the creation in some exotic inner region.

When this is understood, the game of the spiritual quest appears silly, like a dog chasing it's tail. There is nothing wrong with playing the game. If it is your role in the play to be a disciple of a guru, carry on and have fun but none of it leads to what you already are, which you are whether you know it or not.

You can search the cosmos for your glasses for a thousand eons and then be shocked to discover they were on your nose the whole time.

What you already are is the unborn and thus undying Presence that is prior to all phenomena and thought. It can't be conceived or circumscribed in any way because in doing so it would be making an object out of itself and the illusion of individuality and duality begins.

As long as subject is centered in a phenomenal object and thinks and speaks from this, subject is identified with that object and is bound. All questions are answered when it is understood there is no 'self'.

Abandonment of this self or phenomenal center constitutes the only 'practice', and such abandonment is not an act of will or voliton performed by the identified subject, but a non-action which leaves non-objective Source (or noumenon) in control of phenomenal activity and free from fictitious interference from an imaginary self (which it does anyway).

You could don a loincloth and sit in a cave waiting for this to happen, or it may come over you while going though the check-out line in the supermarket.

The advantage of hearing what I am saying is that because this is no big deal, most people don't recognise it between their thoughts as they go about their activities. It is so ordinary it is overlooked. Be alert and you will discover you are free.

Because I have attempted to explain something non-relative with the relative terminology of language, everything I have said can be interpreted as contradictory or just raises more questions.

Just remember the asker is the answer.

Sid - I know your comments are directed at tAo. Pardon me for butting in and if I'm mis-representing what tAo says, I concede to his correction. I cannot claim authority on such matters but as best as I can know, I find tAo's reason is sound. This is not a defense of what tAo says. I couldn't do that.
-----------------
Sid said: "WEll if you have so much experience then teach me about why my rebuttal is wrong."

-- No one can teach any of us anything we aren't ready to learn. We draw from our own being (our ego) and attach to ourselves those concepts with which we wish to identify. tAo is merely letting you know that the identity we conceive as individual and which has inner and outer aspects is in fact all one and the same (no inner and no outer). The "I" never leaves anywhere when Sid dies because there is nowhere to go.

Sid said: "I basically wrote that our awareness is aware of the physcial senses and that Masters have the ability to take their awareness and put it on "nothing" which is consequently God."

-- How can we, as separate individuals, know that a Master has the ability to merge into the void if we haven't merged ourselves into that void? This implies YOU are a Master. Are you a Master? I haven't heard many instances in the literature when a master of Sant Mat claims they are a Master. This is a title that disciples have bestowed. Perhaps the Sant Mat masters should dissuade this basic belief as it seems to be a principle barrier to knowing one's Self. Your comment also implies you know God personally since you seem to know what masters are placing their awareness upon. Do you know God?
------------------
I do agree that there is a third eye and one can define "inner" and "outer" from this relative aspect. However, when one reaches the realm of "Sohang" or I Am That, then there is no such distinction. The "void" is not somewhere else to which we go. I think that to this point, the phenomena of light and sound, heaven and hell, inner and outer makes sense but only from a separated individual perspective. This individual perspective is the delusion from which we believe we are seeking release. The practice of Sant Mat has many side effects in the light and sound worlds but the final state of being is often interpreted as being somewhere else and not right here, right now. In this sense, the beliefs created out of the Sant Mat teachings can create a conceptualization of Sach Khand as some place other than this. Heaven is here and now or it is nowhere. I think Sant Mat can help some to realize this but there is so much gossip within the organization, most of us become inured with the idea of being somewhere or somewhen else. Some in this forum argue that Sant Mat does more harm than good. I think that any religious organization that is more concerned about the pedantic side of their religion and not the mystery in which all this is, is a detriment to individual and social growth.

Sid, see, you haven't proven anything. Tucson has shown that. All you're doing is what a Christian does when he says, "Jesus saves, because the Bible tells me so."

My advice: give up trying to spout your dogma on this blog. You're having close to zero success in convincing anyone of anything. You keep saying "I believe..."

Well, that's fine. All religious believers believe in something. But evidence or proof -- that's a whole different thing.

Tucson:

Sid,

Perhaps what I posted above was a bit abstruse, which was my intention..to take the mind to a place where it sort of hits the wall and apperception ensues. Anyway, I will try a different tack.

-I didn't read that post but I'll try to understand it and maybe comment on it.

All of your beliefs are based on the assumption that there is some self or object that can become enlightened or liberated. That is what tAo is addressing when he asks you "who" and "where" you are etc.

The self is not an object but it thinks it is one. The self becomes enlightened by knowing itself and not the object. Liberation means that the self can do anything. It can take its awareness and withdraw it from the body and put its attention elsewhere.

The following is what I have found to be true, but it is just an intuition condensed into concepts and, as such, it ultimately is untrue because reality or absolute is not conceptual, conceivable or describable. I wrote this years ago and occasionally post it here, so old timers need not go any further.

I was involved with RSSB (Sant Mat) for over two decades. I attended satsang for the first time in 1968 and was initiated in 1970. I have since found that following a spiritual path has no particular relevance to 'understanding' which can occur at any time under any circumstance.

-Did you reach the astral or radiant form of the Master? Did you go further than that even? The testimony of the Saints is contradictory to every word you have said.

The obstacle to 'understanding' or 'awakening' is a thin veil, a trick of perception that is a result of our habits and conditioning.

A spiritual path is based on the premise of an individual that needs to go through a variety of disciplines and correct behaviors in order to purify and get rid of the 'I' or ego, and then achieve reunion with God.

-It's not so simple to get rid of the ego though. You have to take your awareness out of three bodies first. From there the soul only wants the source and goes closer to it.

To follow a path or discipline tends to reinforce the sense of 'self' because there is this goal of liberation or salvation to be achieved BY it. The irony is there is no self, no "thing" to achieve anything.

-Why do you say this funny statement? There is no self you say but then what is it that is experiencing the human body? That self is the thing that chooses to be aware of the eye center or lower centers or just the television or just the thoughts of the world. All those things are within the limited spectrum that our awareness can experience while in the body.

The fundamental point that is missed is that the seeker, at every stage of this quest, is already what he/she is seeking. There is no way to make the seeker any more what they already are.

-The seeker himself is something great but he/she is ENTIRELY aware only of the five senses. This pretty much means that the seeker is not aware of the seeker so it doesn't matter if the seeker is what is being attempted to be found.

You say "There is no way to make the seeker any more what they already are."

Well the seeker isn't trying to change what he already is. He is trying to become aware of what he already is. At first step is he aware of the human body let alone what he himself is. When he becomes aware of what the seeker that is perceiving the human body is he finds the astral body and so on, I'll say it below again.

Obviously the seeker is what is being sought after. It is not seeking to change what it is but it is seeking to find IT, that which is perceiving the human body, the source of his consciousness.

But in the beginning of the quest the seeker has not found anything yet. He is still stuck with his five senses. He will not find himself or God until he meditates.

The thing that is perceiving the five senses is the seeker. If the seeker is to perceive that which is perceiving the senses, he will find the astral self. When the astral self finds what is perceiving the astral body he'll find the causal self. When the causal self finds what is perceiving the causal body he will find his naked soul.

It is a matter of looking in the right direction, which is no direction at all, to see this: to see what you think you are is just a phantom, a dreamed character in a play you are playing a role in. There is no individual. No separate soul. No ego to overcome.

-I believe that there is the body and something perceiving it. When this body dies then the thing perceiving it leaves the body. In near death experiences people just see light down a tunnel. How funny is it that this described experience is the tunnel that all people who meditated as far as the astral have seen? "Going towards the light" is the phenomenon of reaching the thing that perceives the human body-the astral body.

Yes who we "think" we are is a false idea. But when we meditate we are not thinking like you seem to have done entirely too much instead of actual practice.

There are no particular qualifications for perceiving this because Awareness is perfectly present in all circumstances and has no need for special diets, disciplines or gurus.

-Yes awareness is indestructible and self sustaining. But the body isn't. The body is what we are highly associated with. Without those special diets then our body will not be fit and in turn we will not feel fit or be fit. It's not that our awareness is being destroyed or lacking "presence" but it is that it is becoming aware of a unhealthy body. We are so connected to the body that if the body is unhealthy then in turn our awareness is not healthy. But when the health of the body completely deteriorates and the body dies that is when our soul leaves the body and loses association with it.

Initiation by a Guru means that we are taken care of by the Guru within and without. But if we do not do our part then that grace will not be there.

For example if we do not have enough faith in the path then we will be condemned. That condemnation simply means that we didn't follow the path and thus benefit from the path. Instead we come up with our own ideas of what the path is and isn't and go on with no spiritual wealth.


Awareness is always present HERE whether one is loading the dishwasher or experiencing a grand vison of the creation in some exotic inner region.

-Yes awareness is always there but what is your point? Our awareness is a PRISONER of being aware only of those visions or the dishwasher or anything else within the spectrum of physical to the causal.

You say that our awareness is always present HERE. Well yes our awareness is always present in this physical body but it is aware of the body. If it were to not be aware of the visions or of lower things it might become aware of itself as it happens in the third region par Brahm.

When this is understood, the game of the spiritual quest appears silly, like a dog chasing it's tail. There is nothing wrong with playing the game. If it is your role in the play to be a disciple of a guru, carry on and have fun but none of it leads to what you already are, which you are whether you know it or not.

-A dog chasing his tail is chasing his own body. In Sant Mat we literally find what we already are and have been for eternity which is not of the body. We do this by finding the spirit that is inhabiting the physical body which is the astral body. From there we get CONVICTION. If we don't reach that level then we will never have conviction and instead we'll have doubts.

We'll feel like we know that all there is is the body. We'll think that to try to perceive that which is perceiving the body is the height of stupidity.

Only the Saints know that our awareness is aware of the five senses which are aware of the pleasures of the world, but if we are to make the awareness aware of that which is aware of the five senses we will find much greater fulfillment. We'll find the astral body and world, then find the source of that which is the causal body and world, and so on. The fulfillment increases with the awareness freeing itself of the denser layers and eventually the highest fulfillment is when the awareness meets the last layer that is is aware of between itself and well itself.

We aren't changing ourselves in the process of meditation. We are making our awareness become aware of different things. It is purely where we put our attention.

You can search the cosmos for your glasses for a thousand eons and then be shocked to discover they were on your nose the whole time.

-Exactly. It is you that is being sought after, which is not of the cosmos. You are that which is perceiving the cosmos through the physical body. You minus the physical body are a very deep well of wisdom fulfillment and happiness. This reservoir that is the self was always there but it wasn't looking at itself it was looking through the senses and looking through the world for what it already had inside.

What you already are is the unborn and thus undying Presence that is prior to all phenomena and thought. It can't be conceived or circumscribed in any way because in doing so it would be making an object out of itself and the illusion of individuality and duality begins.

-The illusion of individuality and duality is the only reality that we know until our individuality takes the covers of of itself and sees the ocean that it has been in all along. It can be perceived if we are to invert out attention from the false dualistic world into that which is perceiving the worlds.

As long as subject is centered in a phenomenal object and thinks and speaks from this, subject is identified with that object and is bound. All questions are answered when it is understood there is no 'self'.

-The self exists but it is indescribable. The object that it thinks and speaks from is describable.

But until the self has stopped perceiving through the object and instead started perceiving that which perceives through the object it will be thinking and speaking through the object saying that "there is no self."

Abandonment of this self or phenomenal center constitutes the only 'practice', and such abandonment is not an act of will or voliton performed by the identified subject, but a non-action which leaves non-objective Source (or noumenon) in control of phenomenal activity and free from fictitious interference from an imaginary self (which it does anyway).

-You can't abandon the self. You can say that you are already abandoned from it in one way because we are not aware of it but instead aware of our bodies. But in the end our self is what is perceiving the bodies. It is perceiving the bodies thinking that it is the body and not the self as you have demonstrated.

Yes the self will be imaginary as long as we are not aware of it. Any conception of it will be false. We will always think about what it is through the physical body and mind. But that is until we meditate with faith and patience.

It seems like you used to have a problem with thinking that you are two separate things. You felt that there is a soul and now you feel there isn't a soul but just the body.

Well it is true that you were imagining the soul but it isn't true that the soul doesn't exist. We cannot tell it exists until we meditate. We don't know that we are the soul because our soul is dispersed in the five senses which know of this world only.

You could don a loincloth and sit in a cave waiting for this to happen, or it may come over you while going though the check-out line in the supermarket.

The advantage of hearing what I am saying is that because this is no big deal, most people don't recognise it between their thoughts as they go about their activities. It is so ordinary it is overlooked. Be alert and you will discover you are free.

-What is your idea of the "you" which is free? What is "you" to you? You seem to think that "you" is just the physical body, which is of course free.

But in reality the "you" is that which is perceiving the physical body and mind. You cannot know this unless you meditate to the eye center and leave the physical body.

Because I have attempted to explain something non-relative with the relative terminology of language, everything I have said can be interpreted as contradictory or just raises more questions.

Just remember the asker is the answer.

-This can be looked at in different ways. The asker can be thought of as the physical body or it can be thought of that which is perceiving the physical body and asking through it.

In that case then the asker is the answer you are right. But to find the asker requires meditation.

*I forgot to put a dash in the first comment FYI.

Jayme said:

Sid - I know your comments are directed at tAo. Pardon me for butting in and if I'm mis-representing what tAo says, I concede to his correction. I cannot claim authority on such matters but as best as I can know, I find tAo's reason is sound. This is not a defense of what tAo says. I couldn't do that.
-----------------
Sid said: "WEll if you have so much experience then teach me about why my rebuttal is wrong."

-- No one can teach any of us anything we aren't ready to learn. We draw from our own being (our ego) and attach to ourselves those concepts with which we wish to identify. tAo is merely letting you know that the identity we conceive as individual and which has inner and outer aspects is in fact all one and the same (no inner and no outer). The "I" never leaves anywhere when Sid dies because there is nowhere to go.

-When Sid dies his awareness isn't on the five senses anymore but his awareness is still there. What the awareness becomes aware of after death is what the Saints talk of and tell us to experience for ourselves through meditation.

Sid said: "I basically wrote that our awareness is aware of the physcial senses and that Masters have the ability to take their awareness and put it on "nothing" which is consequently God."

-- How can we, as separate individuals, know that a Master has the ability to merge into the void if we haven't merged ourselves into that void?

-The obvious reply to this is that we start with faith. We aren't going to know everything at once. But stage by stage the truth of the Master is revealed. When we try to ride a bike for the first time we have faith that we can do it. We don't know that we can do it but the faith leads us to the conviction when we actually accomplish it.

This implies YOU are a Master. Are you a Master? I haven't heard many instances in the literature when a master of Sant Mat claims they are a Master.

-Some Masters are more blunt than others. I'm not a Master of course. But if we don't know where to put our FAITH then we will never ever find God. If the Masters are too quiet about themselves then there is a problem. This obstacle will lead us to never have faith in a Master.

People don't just guess that a person has access to God. Sant Mat doesn't tell us to just guess "hey look at that guy I think he has the keys to God realization."

The Masters do not want to boast very much. They also don't want people to think "oh well my Master is GIHF so I don't need to meditate."

The Master wants us to realize it for ourselves of course. There is NOT a fine line between boasting and helping the seekers.

Masters do not boast but they nudge the seekers in the right direction. They are good at doing that. Some Masters are more blunt than others but in the end they try to urge the seekers to have faith in them.

Often times there is a lineage. In that case then the seekers don't even need to ask the guru if he is GINF. The teachings of that lineage say that the Master is GIHF and those teachings come from the Masters themselves.

But when there isn't a lineage that is like SGSJM's then they have to be more blunt. Jesus Christ was blunt.

This is a title that disciples have bestowed. Perhaps the Sant Mat masters should dissuade this basic belief as it seems to be a principle barrier to knowing one's Self.

-Sant Mat teaches that the Master has already mastered the technique of reaching the Lord and thus he is indispensable to knowing ones self and then knowing God. Yes the Master doesn't need to be that loud about who he is because he notices that has already been done for him. But in the case of Jesus for example it was a much bigger deal. He had to make himself known more than SGSJM. He didn't have thousands upon millions of people waiting for him right when he became a Master.

Your comment also implies you know God personally since you seem to know what masters are placing their awareness upon. Do you know God?

-Read the RS books and you'll find what the Masters put their awareness on. They put it on God or the void or whatever you want to call that nameless thing. It is of course faith based in the beginning stages.

------------------
I do agree that there is a third eye and one can define "inner" and "outer" from this relative aspect. However, when one reaches the realm of "Sohang" or I Am That, then there is no such distinction.
The "void" is not somewhere else to which we go.

-The void is not us "going" anywhere. It is us making our attention become aware of that which is aware of the various bodies including the physical astral and causal. After we've done that then we have become aware of the the "spark" of the void or spark of God. For God consciousness there is further layers to be removed before the attention is on the actual Void that is God.

I think that to this point, the phenomena of light and sound, heaven and hell, inner and outer makes sense but only from a separated individual perspective. This individual perspective is the delusion from which we believe we are seeking release.

-The Saints don't call it delusion that our awareness is trapped in the body and bounces around into different ones and experiences consequences of good and bad deeds which could be a heave or hell.

The path of the light and sound leads out of this world of bodies into other worlds and then finally a world that has no sound light or anything we can imagine.

The practice of Sant Mat has many side effects in the light and sound worlds but the final state of being is often interpreted as being somewhere else and not right here, right now.

-You make no sense there is no way that the final state of being can be "somewhere." That hardly makes any sense. What it is is simply indescribably but to say that it is here or there is a great understatement of its indescribable nature. The final state of being is simply not what we are aware of. We are aware of the current state of being which is the five senses. If we are not aware of the the senses or of the astral or anything else all the way to the seventh region then we are aware of the final stage. That final stage has no location but we say words like "within" or "highest region" and so on to give that state of consciousness it's own respect. We aren't trying to disrespect it by taking the names literal for the thing itself.

In this sense, the beliefs created out of the Sant Mat teachings can create a conceptualization of Sach Khand as some place other than this. Heaven is here and now or it is nowhere.

-I think most people understand that Sach Khand is a state of consciousness just like we are experiencing a state of consciousness right now. It is probably something to be experienced only. The whole meditative process shows what really goes on if we do it.

To say that "I'm going to Sach Khand" simply implies that a person is switching his state of consciousness from being aware of this plane to being aware of a different plane. The distance between the two planes isn't even possible. They aren't related by distance in the sense that you have mentioned.

I think Sant Mat can help some to realize this but there is so much gossip within the organization, most of us become inured with the idea of being somewhere or somewhen else.

-Well we simply become unaware of this realm and become aware of better ones. They are more "spiritual." To try to imagine what a spiritual realm is like is useless. You have to "go" there. Technically we aren't somewhere else but when we are there we are literally dead to this world.

Some in this forum argue that Sant Mat does more harm than good.

-Well it can do harm if someone loses faith and feels that they have wasted time. Other things can happen when someone loses faith. They begin to see that their efforts and sacrifices were entirely not worth believing in a fake cult and end up feeling at a loss and embarrassed.

I think that any religious organization that is more concerned about the pedantic side of their religion and not the mystery in which all this is, is a detriment to individual and social growth.

-Sant Mat is interested in find the mystery in which all this is, definitely.

Actually Sant Mat covers ever aspect known to man and goes a lot of steps further.

It tells us to live in the world normally but to have a more positive outlook. Don't drink or smoke or harm others, you don't need that. Be healthy and good to all. Be happy in life despite the bad things that happen. Look at the good things. Thank God for everything good and bad that has happened to you. Feel that life has never ending endeavors and that meditation is a side endeavor. Sant Mat really is the best of both worlds. It is living a happy healthy fulfilling life and also having faith in the Almighty creator and experiencing the divinity of the Self and finding God.

Brian has said:

Sid, see, you haven't proven anything.

-The proof is in the soul. Look at what Walt Whitman has stated:

"Wisdom is not finally tested in schools;
> Wisdom cannot be pass’d from one having it, to another not having
> it;
> Wisdom is of the Soul, is not susceptible of proof, is its own
> proof, 80
> Applies to all stages and objects and qualities, and is content,
> Is the certainty of the reality and immortality of things, and the
> excellence of things;
> Something there is in the float of the sight of things that provokes
> it out of the Soul."

I can't prove it for you the proof is from doing the path. If we have tried the path and nothing happened then we gave up. It has to be until death or else our mindset will be weak. It is an endeavor that we either have faith in or not. Some people aren't good at meditation some are but the ones who aren't can catch up if they increase faith.

Tucson has shown that.

-I replied to Tucson. The only thing he said is that there is no separate self. Well he was right there is no separate self but we are not aware of the self we are aware of the body. Meditation allows us to go from being aware of the body to the self that we are and were all along.

All you're doing is what a Christian does when he says, "Jesus saves, because the Bible tells me so."

-But we do not put our faith in a man that a book written by randoms says existed two thousand years ago and taught this and that, do we? We put our faith in an actual person who is alive and writes his own books. He tells us himself what it is. This person who is alive we meet him. We see the way he lives the public watches him. We get a chance to have a feel for whether he is being honest or he is just a fool not doing any good for sincere seekers. It's like a person who tells you that reading can make your life much better if you learn. You put faith in that person and you try it. Same way SGSJM is a real person saying real words and so we do it.

And when we put faith in him we don't instantly feel satisfied. Some people are so impatient that they become ex-satsangis because their meditation frustrated them.

But either way the faith is used as a tool for successful meditation. Most Satsangis know that meditation is the way. We have faith that the Master will aid us and meet us at the Astral. But it is the Master that makes us confident that meditation is a safe practice.

I myself knew about meditation before I knew about this path. I knew that meditation is the best. My faith didn't all come from Sant Mat. I knew of other people and things that talked of meditation. I knew about Gurus and so forth. I just feel better with the Sant Mat gurus as many do as well. Some people have experienced great signs that lead them to this path.

There is no harm in having faith in the Master. We aren't losing anything. We simply have faith that he will guide our meditations. We look to the words of hundreds of Saints and find the commonalities.

We see that even Kabir Sahib had trouble with meditation. He tried so hard that he almost died in the process. His emaciated body was pecked by birds as he laid desiring only that his eyes be spared and the darshan of his Master.

His case is tiny compared to all the similar ones.

I myself knew I had to meditate anyways. But my ideas were all messed up. Sant Mat gives the perfect method to meditate and live in the world.

My advice: give up trying to spout your dogma on this blog. You're having close to zero success in convincing anyone of anything. You keep saying "I believe..."

Well, that's fine. All religious believers believe in something. But evidence or proof -- that's a whole different thing.

-You can't have proof by reading books and thinking about why Gurus are liars and use intellectual gymnastics to figure out how to find Truth and how it is not found.

You meditate. Simple. That is the religious belief. The result is religion itself.

You feel that proof is possible besides the meditation. Well you really must feel that meditation is an external process? It starts with faith then the evidence is found in the soul.

Sid, you're getting tiresome. You're saying the same thing over and over: just have faith in the guru, and meditate.

It's fine that you believe this. But like I've said before, it's no different from a Christian saying, "just have faith in Jesus, and pray."

This blog is a place to discuss, not to preach. You aren't discussing. You're preaching.

I point out that you're wrong about transitional fossils, and you ignore the facts, repeating what you said before about God creating species all at once. That's wrong. And tiresome.

If somebody wants preaching, they can go to any of many religious web sites and blogs. If somebody wants to preach, the same.

Get the message?

Just praying doesn't do anything. It doesn't lead one to reach the eye center and see the radiant form of the Master.

Meditation isn't prayer. It is a higher prayer than christian prayers.

Scientists boast too much. All I say is that God exists and probably didn't use evolution. He created species, and some were similar. So you can look at it as evolution or whatever else.

Ok Brian but when people preach here there anti-Sant Mat babble I feel I have some right.

This all arose from Tao saying that Sant Mat doesn't preach that the disciples can become shabd incarnates. He was saying some dis info about how disciples can never become Masters. I'll find it.

Ok Tao has said this:

"If sant mat actually did teach that "each of us is God the ultimate reality", then there would be no need to get disciples to regard the master/guru as being uniquely so.

Most satsangis are in considerable denial about this, but the truth of it is that sant mat does NOT at all promote or teach "the realisation that each of us is God the ultimate reality"."


We call the Master a Master because he has already realized God the ultimate reality.

Is that so hard to understand? Why would we not call him a Master? Should I call you a Master? As far as I'm concerned you are just the human body and have realized that only.

You haven't put your awareness on God once. It has been on your limited physical body for ages.

The Master has become God by meditation. The disciples can also become God by meditation. But when they aren't meditating they are just a bubble of consciousness.

But they are mini Gods. Potential Gods. They aren't actually God though. They are aware of the human body and functioning in the human body. If they put their awareness on God then they would see all that God sees and be doing all that God is doing.

Brian I feel like I did nothing wrong. I was simply replying to Tao and what he said about Sant Mat. I posted above what he had said that started this all.

Sid,

I agree with what tAo was quoted as saying.

You may not intend it, but much of what you say is inflammatory. You say "Scientists boast too much." The Sant Mat Guru's claim the Sant Mat Path as a "Science of the Soul (c)". The Master is the lead scientist and consequently you are saying MY Guru boasts too much. I don't think you meant this and even if you did, I'm not offended. Words are a very fine snare that can easily trap both speaker and listener.

Keep the faith but do the practice brother. Don't be concerned about the spiritual condition of others. As the Master says, paraphrasing, you are less of a problem for him if you are doing was he commands. Sit very still and very quietly, meditate, do your duty, and leave the rest to him.

Radha Soami

Alright Jayme you're right. Hopefully someday I'll get initiated by some Master but until then I'll get ready for it. Radha Soami.

Sid: "It has to be until death or else our mindset will be weak. It is an endeavor that we either have faith in or not."

-- You can gameble your entire life away if you wish, I don't need to.

"We call the Master a Master because he has already realized God the ultimate reality.'

-- You don't know what, or if, he has realized anything... "already". And even if someone had, it has no meaning consequence to to anynone else. There is no "Master", and there is no "God the ultimate reality". These are merely ideas which you hold. In relaity, none of that exists.

"Should I call you a Master?"

-- If you had truly realized God, then you see only God, and see everyone as "a Master". Moreover, eveything you have said -everything - reveals that you haven't any insight or experience in so-called "God realization" whatsoever. That is obvious in every word that you write.

"As far as I'm concerned you are just the human body and have realized that only."

-- You do not know what anyone else has realized. And by implying that you do, you are simply reflecting you own ignorance.

"You haven't put your awareness on God once. It has been on your limited physical body."

-- That statemnent is nothing more than a relection of, indicative of, your own limited state, your own mind, your own mundane point of view.

"The Master has become God by meditation."

-- There is no one to become God. There is no one to become anything. There is nothing to become. Either there is only God.... or there is only ___.

"Hopefully someday I'll get initiated by some Master but until then I'll get ready for it."

-- You are nothing more than an impudent and hypocritical punk. You yourself are not even an initiate, yet you treat other long-time elder initiates who have many decades of meditation experience with utter arrogance and disrespect. You are but an arrogant manmukh parroting dogma, not a humble gurumukh.

The universe is eventually going to whoop you ass unless you sit down and shut up and learn humility to those who are wiser and more experienced than you are. Mark my words. You are headed for a real kick in the teeth and a rude awakening. And you deserve it because you're a impudent punk.

To put it bluntly... Go stuff it Sid... you are acting like a very juvenile religious-fundamentalisism preaching asshole.

Get a clue.


Tao wrote:

Sid: "It has to be until death or else our mindset will be weak. It is an endeavor that we either have faith in or not."

-- You can gameble your entire life away if you wish, I don't need to.

-All of life is a gamble friend. We are all looking for happiness and risks are always a means to get it.

"We call the Master a Master because he has already realized God the ultimate reality.'

-- You don't know what, or if, he has realized anything... "already". And even if someone had, it has no meaning consequence to to anynone else. There is no "Master", and there is no "God the ultimate reality". These are merely ideas which you hold. In relaity, none of that exists.

-Tao you repeatedly forget that Sant Mat is just a theory. Again, we obviously don't "know" if they have already done that, but it's the theory, the hypothesis that the Saints give us. We are to think of the Saints merely as teachers in the beginning not GIHF.

You say it has no consequence to anyone else. Well it doesn't. You can call anyone you want GIHF using whatever definition of the phrase you'd like. Sant Mat proposes us to find out whether the teacher is GIHF or not according to their definition using the methods prescribed. They don't have a monopoly over the words GIHF but they have a right to put their own twist to the meaning of it. You could say that we are all GIHF in one way. I'm sure SGSJM agrees on that. But in the Sant Mat tradition GIHF is someone who has realized the God in their human form in their life, according to the theories. They are not only GIHF but are also aware of it and its power through meditation, in theory.

You can say there's no "Masters" or "God the Ultimate Reality" and that they are just ideas that don't exist in reality.

Well as of now it really is just an idea in my reality. You're right but that's not a problem. That doesn't go against exactly what Sant Mat teaches obviously. Until it goes from theory to experience then it is exactly what you describe.


"Should I call you a Master?"

-- If you had truly realized God, then you see only God, and see everyone as "a Master". Moreover, eveything you have said -everything - reveals that you haven't any insight or experience in so-called "God realization" whatsoever. That is obvious in every word that you write.

-Tao I explained this before. Yes everyone can be seen as God through the eyes of one who has reached that level, of course. But the only difference between a Master and a normal person is that the Master has realized his potential, has experienced the Divinity, IN THEORY. Remember these are just a theory that the Master can see God in all things and that he has risen to that level in Sant Mat. He sees God in all but all do not see God in all the way he does. But it is only a theory that he has these special perceptions and abilities. Only the Master knows who is also at his level and sees all that he sees and can rise to that level. Theories need to be proven or disproved. Some may say they have disproved the theory according to their experiences that's fine. Others will say the contrary. I myself haven't done anything except try to understand the theory.

What you say is like a dean of a college who sees mature adults in his students but also calls them mature adults and sees them as people who have experienced things that they did not. They are still just college students. They haven't yet realized that potential or risen to that experience of actualized adulthood yet but it is still within them.

They may have been adults in past lives but that was then. Just as others may have realized God before or far before this life. So instead of calling them GIHF we can call them mini Gods. Just as the dean may refer to a student as "young man" or "young lady." Sometimes they act just as the dean but they are still not as experienced as him to be called full fledged adults. But this is all just theory that the Master has fully experienced God as the dean has experienced adulthood. The adult is within the students all their lives like the tree is in the seed.


"As far as I'm concerned you are just the human body and have realized that only."

-- You do not know what anyone else has realized. And by implying that you do, you are simply reflecting you own ignorance.

-Tao it's just a theory. We don't know anything but we theorize that the Master has risen to that level. We are not concerned about others, we have faith in that one Master. In truth I know I have only experienced the senses. In theory the Master has gone above that. So I'll test this.


"You haven't put your awareness on God once. It has been on your limited physical body."

-- That statemnent is nothing more than a relection of, indicative of, your own limited state, your own mind, your own mundane point of view.

-Ok then I'll talk only for myself. I haven't put my awareness on God once. It has been on my limited physical body. For example I have faith that SGSJM in fact has put his awareness on God plenty of times and will test this out.


"The Master has become God by meditation."

-- There is no one to become God. There is no one to become anything. There is nothing to become. Either there is only God.... or there is only ___.

-It's the awareness that rises up the level of consciousness called God, in theory. Like there is waking sleeping consciousness there is also God consciousness IN THEORY. When I'm in a lucid dream and it's becoming a nightmare I might say hmm I should go back to the real Sid now. Just as a Saint may go back to God when he wants peace.

If you are going to say there is "no one" I'm going to have to disagree. By my experience I am that "no one" that is experiencing the senses and life as of right now. You say there is nothing to become. Well the theory of Sant Mat is that God is what we are to become if we can be open minded enough to accept the teachings as they are first.


"Hopefully someday I'll get initiated by some Master but until then I'll get ready for it."

-- You are nothing more than an impudent and hypocritical punk. You yourself are not even an initiate, yet you treat other long-time elder initiates who have many decades of meditation experience with utter arrogance and disrespect. You are but an arrogant manmukh parroting dogma, not a humble gurumukh.

-You can call me what you want but I didn't notice any arrogance. I am having a conversation about the theory of Sant Mat. That's an example of what this blog is for isn't it? Conversing about theories and so on. I've commented on your version of Sant Mat that's all. You have not yet told me of your meditative experiences.

You only tell me there is no you to become God and no God to become. You make claims about the theory of the Masters as well and the powers that work behind them. But I haven't read your experiences yet maybe I missed it somewhere. What have you experienced in meditation? I've heard the meditative experiences of plenty of other people that are very positive.


The universe is eventually going to whoop you ass unless you sit down and shut up and learn humility to those who are wiser and more experienced than you are. Mark my words. You are headed for a real kick in the teeth and a rude awakening. And you deserve it because you're a impudent punk.

-Up till now I have been listening to all people. I take into account all peoples experiences. But in general the wiser people that I've encountered have been the ones who have had success. The people who haven't yet had success aren't more experienced IMHO. I may not be humble and I may get all my teeth knocked out but sometimes that's what it takes to reach the next step.

IMO the real pain will be the long period of dry meditation and lack of results for what will seem like eternity. But I know that this will happen. I know that it's going to be like a desert for God knows how long if not until I give up and/or die. But I anticipate it. I feel confident to put myself to the test. Reality may break me or do whatever it wants with me but hopefully I'll always have the attitude that it's all for the best. You may have had a similar outlook on this. But don't think that I don't take the ex-satsangis into account. I have you to learn from.

Don't get me wrong I learn a lot from the ex-satsangis. They show that this path isn't all that it's hyped up to be at all for some. So I keep that in mind and try to be more humble thanks to people like you Tao. I see that many don't have success so why should I? I'll try to learn all the lessons I can.

All I've done is try to increase my faith by not succumbing to what this blog has said just because some people had a bad experience out of many more who are still on the path and feel different. Instead I try to give what I think Sant Mat is so that I can see how you all respond. I try to say that nobody can disprove or prove Sant Mat except by their own experience. You can try to give your take on the teachings and I'll comment and end up learning something whether you think it or not. I can think for myself FYI and do not blindly believe this path/theory. If you could give meditative experiences or more on your take of the path I'd appreciate it.


To put it bluntly... Go stuff it Sid... you are acting like a very juvenile religious-fundamentalisism preaching asshole.

Get a clue.

It's all just theories. I say there is nothing wrong with the theory and you say there is so that's why I comment so I can get a better understanding when you reply. You haven't posted your meditative experiences to prove your points but I don't see why you should. It would be beneficial to show that meditation is very hard, but not to prove anything because the proof of meditation is obviously personal. Some people never give up and in the end have positive experiences to share that are more inspiration than the negative ones. But the negative ones have their own purpose.

In the end it's all about meditation to prove the theories and that makes Sant Mat untouchable. You can try to use your intellect to say that the Master hasn't done this and that God isn't that and that this and that doesn't reflect reality. But how can you know that SGSJM has not reached that level or that the level exists? Oh because there is no "SGSJM" to realize God and there is no God to be realized. Well those are your opinions not proof. It's good to know other peoples thoughts of the path though. Really it is. I'm not trying to do anything here but learn and I have trust me.

Sid, what you keep missing in your lengthy, repetitive comments is that the people you've been debating here with do, repeat, DO, have their own experience with Sant Mat and RSSB meditation.

You don't, repeat, DON'T. You haven't been initiated yet. I was initiated 37 years ago. So I have 37 more years of experience with Sant Mat than you do. Ditto (with the number of years changing) for tAo, Tucson, and others who have been interacting with you.

Your basic mistake is that you keep talking about conducting the experiment of Sant Mat meditation as if we haven't done the experiment and you have. Yet actually the exact opposite is true: we've done the experiment and you haven't.

As someone advised you recently, and this makes good sense to me, what you should do is get initiated and spend a couple of decades meditating (or at least a couple of years). Then share your experiences on the Internet, if you like.

All you're doing now is repeating what you've read in books and heard in satsangs. By contrast, other people have been speaking about what they experienced (or didn't experience) during an extensive period of regular meditation and following of the RSSB vows (about 35 years in my case).

We've gone to school. Listened to the teacher. Done the experiment. Observed what happened. And now we're able to talk about it. You aren't.

Sid,

You said: "I haven't put my awareness on God once."

..What you are trying to see is what is looking! What else could there be for you to see? What else could you never see? We all miss it because 'we' are there to miss it. If 'we' were not present who would there be to miss it, since it is what 'we' are?

"God" (the subjective) is whatever you can't see because it is what is looking (functioning). Objectifying what is functioning (while objectifying) is the only obstacle and the only 'bondage' there could be.

There is no practice to take you to a Goal, for the practicing is the Goal. There is no need for a master because the master is what you are and That is no where to be found except as This as it is right now.

Couldn't have said it any better myself. And this is rather difficlt stuff to articulate correctly and meaningfully. So I agree and I very much appreciate how Tucson explains it.


Brian:

Sid, what you keep missing in your lengthy, repetitive comments is that the people you've been debating here with do, repeat, DO, have their own experience with Sant Mat and RSSB meditation.


-And I wrote that their experiences are very appreciated of course. They are negative ones albeit as useful as any other positive ones. But Sant Mat teaches us that there is no time fixed on the experiment. Yes we record the data as we go along but we keep going until the end of the experiment is reached. We don't give up for as many lifetimes as it takes. Sounds like a stupid trap but it's just the magnitude of the "experiment."

You don't, repeat, DON'T. You haven't been initiated yet. I was initiated 37 years ago. So I have 37 more years of experience with Sant Mat than you do. Ditto (with the number of years changing) for tAo, Tucson, and others who have been interacting with you.

-Ok so you guys have a lot of experience. But you haven't talked about it enough at all. You haven't said absolutely nothing happend from concentration in the darkness and simran or that only this happend. You just say the whole path is a ridiculous lie.

But you don't have a monopoly on what can happen in meditation. There are many others as well who are more positive with their experiences like I posted before.


Your basic mistake is that you keep talking about conducting the experiment of Sant Mat meditation as if we haven't done the experiment and you have. Yet actually the exact opposite is true: we've done the experiment and you haven't.

-You have done the experiment and said it is null. But your experiences aren't all conclusive. There are many people who meditate in this world who don't just stop the experiment because the meditation isn't leading anywhere except to thoughts of doubt. A lot of those people who don't give up ever are more wise IMO.

They are the ones that are a better testament to the path because they are doing it just fine. Giving up IMO is against the path. Sounds insane but that's how meditation is IMO.

Even negative experiences are needed to learn from though. I can't explain how much it is needed to learn from different types of people.

I don't know why your meditation concluded what it did. Maybe you don't believe in/haven't reached the astral in meditation yet?

You don't need to believe in Sant Mat to believe that the astral exists and can be reached through meditation. You might say "there is no astral and I proved it by meditation." Well that's going against a lot of talk of it from all different parts of the world from all different times.

As someone advised you recently, and this makes good sense to me, what you should do is get initiated and spend a couple of decades meditating (or at least a couple of years). Then share your experiences on the Internet, if you like.

-Yeah I might but if nothing ever happens for years I won't come on here saying Sant Mat is fake. I will always understand the theory to be unbreakable. It is based on meditation. Meditation is known to work. It is known that the third eye is a portal. If you don't believe in that because your third eye hasn't opened yet then IMO you haven't knocked enough.

All you're doing now is repeating what you've read in books and heard in satsangs. By contrast, other people have been speaking about what they experienced (or didn't experience) during an extensive period of regular meditation and following of the RSSB vows (about 35 years in my case).

-For the most part we've only been talking about the theory. People try to make Sant Mat seem false with intellect because they can't prove to others what their meditation proved to them. They want to basically meditate for others by giving them the conclusions they got from their experience with the path to scare people away from it.

It's all in good heart so that people don't get trapped but IMO they haven't talked enough about their meditation to just say that the Sant Mat theory is devoid of truth.

I don't see how anyones experience could discredit the theory of Sant Mat to others I have yet to see it in writting occur. Only people's unsuccessful meditation.

But the theory is air tight as I've been discussing it. You seeing darkness in meditation for so long is contrary to others so a few people can't discredit meditation or Sant Mat.

There are too many factors per person that can make meditation not go anywhere. And to say that "I have not reached God in some 40 years so there is no God the Masters are not God" and so on is not what I think is right.

I feel that it is never disproved. This is because too many people talk of meeting a inner guide and the astral and the causal and God and higher states of councioussness and so on. It's not just Sant Mat. Many people, even people I know have spoken of meditational experiences including satsangis that are very favorable for Sant Mat.

You'll never actually know if your meditation just wasn't good enough even though you've done it for so long. There are a lot of factors anyways.

We've gone to school. Listened to the teacher. Done the experiment. Observed what happened. And now we're able to talk about it. You aren't.

-Meditation is the most difficult task there is. It's no normal experiment it's the king of all experiments all tests all mysteries and adventures.

The experiment failed according to your rules. Sant Mat says that not everyone will reach there as quick as others. It may take lifetimes who knows.

I'm very sorry that it didn't work out. I feel really bad. I mean these are really the things I sometimes wonder about when it comes to God.

How could he not have helped out disciples more if they were on the path for so long. But God IMO is very mysterious and there are many factors in the equation.

He might have forseen that someone would lose faith after 35 years and didn't like that I don't know. Maybe the right concentration needed more time or there needs to be more experiences on lower planes, but I really have no idea it could be a combination of too many things. You're probably taking this the wrong way and think the worst of me.

I can't explain unsuccessful meditation, and won't accept that it's because Sant Mat is faulty. The undesired answer is generally do more simran.

I know a lot of satsangis who will always follow the path like it's their duty to God. Some of them have experiences but some don't. But they understand that meditation is the hardest endeavor there is.

Sant Mat has no monopoly over its theory of meditation even. It's talked about by many others. I know that people have success in meditation. I also know that it's hard to practice in this world and may take longer than other things because of variables.

As the theory goes we've been in this world for very long so meditation is like reversing millions upon billions of years. The Master helps but it's a large task.

Yes it sounds like the theory is set up to make it a trap and you feel that you've gotten out of it. You feel that meditating until the goal is reached or until death is just a sure fire way to keep the disciples wrapped up in dogma.

Tucson said:


Sid,

You said: "I haven't put my awareness on God once."

..What you are trying to see is what is looking!

-Whats your point? I am trying to see what is looking but I haven't done that yet. Are you implying that I look into a mirror? God is not me God is looking at the whole creation. He is the Supreme Being with fathomless eyes and ears and so on. For me to be what he is seeing I'd have to reach his level of conciseness via his will and the Shabd.

What else could there be for you to see?

-I could see that which is seeing and then see that which sees that and so on until I see what God sees and is, which is everything.

What else could you never see?

-I don't see what the Lord sees feels or experiences. I don't see or experience what YOU are seeing and experiencing. I don't see the thing that is looking through the physical body. God is the Ultimate seer he sees us all and experiences us all. He sees through all facets and is the controller of all those facets.

If we invert our attention we will see that which is looking through the physical eyes which is the Astral body. If we see what is seeing through that we find the causal body. We rise to higher levels of consciousness until the Lord permits us to see what he sees and experience what he experiences according to what he permits us to experience.

We all miss it because 'we' are there to miss it. If 'we' were not present who would there be to miss it, since it is what 'we' are?

-That's utter foolishness. I am here to miss it. I am experiencing this physical body and missing the big picture that God is. Like an evil spirit likes to possess bodies I want to reach the Lord, but not by force of course!

If there was no "we" then there would have been no creation. "We" are what populated the creation. Our souls (awareness) came down here into the bodies. If we did not then there would be no reason for this lower creation. If the "we" just vanished then our bodies would drop to the ground dead.


"God" (the subjective) is whatever you can't see because it is what is looking (functioning).

-Yes. The whole point is to reverse the attention from the senses and world to God. But God is not merely that which is seeing. He isn't just what Sid sees. He is also what everyone sees. He is the infinite seer. He sees everything.

When we try to see the seer we haven't found God we just accomplished self realization. We may see the astral body. Then the causal then the naked soul. Those are self realization steps. God is the term used for that which sees all and experiences all and is all.

This is a hard process none the less.

Objectifying what is functioning (while objectifying) is the only obstacle and the only 'bondage' there could be.

-The thing that is functioning is using the physical body as its function. It is using the mind. That is the obstacle. When we take those away and see that which sees all of everything then we have seen the Father.


There is no practice to take you to a Goal, for the practicing is the Goal.

-When we start the practice we are seeing the senses and the mind. When we end the practice we are seeing that which sees the senses of all humans all astral entities all everything everywhere and well more. That is the Supreme Being which lacks all description. That is the result of seeing what is seeing what is seeing and so on.

When we begin the practice the seer isn't seeing the seer. Even when he looks in the mirror he is not seeing the seer behind the eyebrows. Let alone the seer of all, God.

There is no need for a master because the master is what you are and That is no where to be found except as This as it is right now.

The Master is within. Within means that he is not separate. Within is still US. It is part of us. But we are aware or only looking without. Just because I'm not looking down at my feet doesn't mean that those feet aren't part of me.

Our attention is without so we aren't seeing ourselves which includes the Shabd and everything else.

Sid,

You're looking for some joy ride in the astral that you conceive as somehow more "spiritual" than what is right now.

You are making happiness a goal rather than just being here now as it is. That's all there is to it.

I have seen lights and stars and heard sounds. I have shot through the universe at incomprehensible speed to a realm of strange and beautiful gardens. So what?

It's just stuff, phenomena, the ultimate quality of which is no different than our everyday experience. The same awareness is present.

All you need to do, which is a non-doing, is to quit making your awareness the object of itself and calling it you...

See my comment above at 1:41pm.

Sid,

You said: "I'm not trying to do anything here but learn"

Alright, then LEARN this...

You said: "But how can you know that SGSJM has not reached that level or that the level exists?"

-- In the same way, ho can YOU know that I (or others here) have not "reached that level"?

In other words, why do YOU (someone who, in fact, has NOT yet been initiated, and thus has NOT truly ever practiced shabd yoga meditation according to the basic principles of sant mat) have the arrogance to assert that the current RS leader HAS "reached that level"... and yet you turn right around and assert that others (like myself) have NOT "reached that level"???

The fact of the matter is that you do NOT have any way of knowing what "level" of spiritual attainment or inner plane or realization I have "reached". You have no knowledge of anyone elses state or level... including both that of GSD and of myself.

It is merely by faith alone that you assume that GSD has even attained any higher "level" of mystic attainment. And it is also in complete ignorance that you assume that I have NOT.

THIS Sid... is your fundamental error. You DO NOT know what state or what level of mystical attainment or so-called "God-realization" anyone else has attained. And yet you blindly tout GSD as being a Sant and a so-called Master, but then you arrogantly deride others as being the very opposite.

THIS is precisely why I say that you are spiritually immature and ignorant, and you are an impudent and disrespectful punk who parrots dogma in an attempt to challenge other older initiates who have far more experience and knowledge and wisdom than you do. You have no humility nor respect for other sadakas, or sages. Anyone who has any moderate or even a mimimal degree of spiritual insight knows that the qualities of humility towards the wise and surrender to truth is key to spiritual advancement, to sadhana. However, you exhibit and possess neither.

Thus you have no clue as to who you are challenging and debating with, or even the nature of what you are debating about. You have much to learn Sid, and far to go before you will ever understand or appreciate what this forum is about.

If you wish to pursue becoming initiated into Radha Soami Mat and practicing 'surat shabd yoga', then you should simply go ahead and do so. But coming here like an impudent internet troll and posting tons of RS dogma and disrespecting elder RS initiates, is far from what the RS master desires or approves of. Everything you have been doing here is completely against the will and the wishes and the instructions of the current RS master. The very fact that you continue to ignore this and disrespect, challenge, ridicule, and argue with other long-time initiates just shows that you are not at all yet suitable or "prepared" for initiation into Sant Mat, nor are you humbly following the master's instructions. You are an immature small fry with a big puffed up ego.

You really don't have a tiny clue as to who you are dealing with here, and until you get off your high horse and stop your repeated impudent spouting and parroting of dogma, you will soon become unwelcome here.

On the other hand, you could - if you were intelligent and wise - learn a lot here (as well as continue to pursue your intention to gain Sant Mat initation and engage in spiritual sadhana). No one here is telling you that you are wrong for pursuing Sant Mat. You are the one who is calling us and our opinions wrong. You came here as a visitor and a guest. If you wish to participate in the discussions, you are welcome, But you are NOT welcome to come here and criticise other's views and insights and experience by repeatedly PREACHING RS dogma to those of us who already know far more about it all than YOU do.

So is that clear enough for you? And Brian has already given you notice. So either you are going to show some respect for this forum and what it is about, or you should go elsewhere. The choice is yours. But don't think you are going to continue the game you are playing.

If you are truly a satsangi, then you will enter into the spirit of Real SATSANG (Association in Truth). Unfortunately, so far, you have not been doing that at all.

Never-the-less, to each his own. So good luck to you on your chosen path... and leave others to theirs.


Then problem with Sid, is that he thinks he knows more than others... others who just happen to be much older, wiser, more mature, more knowledgeable, more experienced, and more enlightened than he is.

Until he comes to recognize and realize that, he will continue posting endless dogma in an attempt to outsmart other folks.

He apparently has no intention of respecting or having any consideration for Brian's wishes, or the other fellows in this forum. Because of Sid and his nonsense, this forum has gradually degenerated to the level of a circus... and Sid is the CLOWN.

Enough, I say.


REAL SAINTS-TRUE GODMEN-OF THE-FROM THE-GOD WORLD-GOD KINGDOM-SACH KHAND-SATT LOK-SANT KIRPAL SINGH-BABA SAWAN SINGH-BABA JAIMAL SINGH-SWAMI SHIV DAYAL SINGH TYPE-ARE NOT-NEVER "DO NOTHING" TYPES-"PASHU PAREYT MUGADH KO TAREYN PAHAN PAR UTAREYN-SAINTS GIVE SALVATION TO ANIMALS-TO GHOSTS-TO IDIOT TYPES-DEMENTED TYPES-EVEN TO ROCKS-STONES"-GURU NANAK-"WHEREVER SAINTS WALK THE GRASS-INSECTS UNDER THEIR FEET BECOME-ARE BORN AS HUMANS-FISH AROUND THEIR BODY IN RIVERS-PONDS ARE BORN AS HUMANS-TREES OF WHICH THEY EAT FRUIT OR USE TWIG FOR THEIR TEETH CLEANING ARE BORN AS HUMANS"-BABA SAWAN SINGH JI-PIPAL TREE THAT FELL IN SAWAN ASHRAM-IN 1950s-"WILL BE BORN AS HUMAN"-SAID SANT KIRPAL SINGH JI-SO IT HAPPENED-GFR WAS THERE-BABA JAIMAL SINGH CHEWED LEAF OF TREE SAYING-HE WAS OUR VILLAGE MAN-NOW HAS COME TO TREE BIRTH-I AM RELEASING HIM-LORD RAMA TOUCHED HIS FOOT TO WOMAN STATUE-SHE ROSE UP ALIVE-GURU NANAK SAT UNDER DEAD-WORN TREE AND IT BECAME GREEN-JESUS CURSED FIG TREE AND IT DIED RIGHTAWAY-THESE ARE SAINTS-GOD AS MEN-NOT JOKERS-GURU WAS HIMSELF SAINT SO HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT-ABOUT WHOM-GOD AS MAN-HE WAS TALKING ABOUT-NOT ABOUT KALIYUGA "SATGURUS" WHO ARE NEITHER SATT-TRUTH-GOD NOR GURUS-GODMEN-GOD AS MEN-gframesch.

I only recently heard about this. Here is a transcript from the “Seekers’ Guide” by RSSB (page 30):

“We should take our time, ask our questions, get other opinions, read through various books. We should perhaps browse through “critics’ views” on the Internet. We can use this process as an opportunity to reflect on what critics say, then examine and decide the truth for ourselves”.

Sid says that he is a seeker and he also says on this particular thread, “Don't get me wrong I learn a lot from the ex-satsangis … I'll try to learn all the lessons I can.”

Sid, we went through all this less than a year ago, as documented on comments to this post:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2008/04/radha-soami-sat/comments/page/3/

I'd forgotten much of this blog's previous Sid history until I re-read some of those comments about your banning, and de-banning, from writing comments.

Obviously you haven't changed. You might ask yourself why your views are almost exactly the same, and why you feel the need to preach to the churchless choir, if you feel that you're on a path of spiritual progress.

At any rate, I'll repeat what I said in a 2008 comment. I liked what I said then, and I like it now. It looks like we're on a merry-go-round and will end up at the same point: saying "Goodbye Sid; grow up before you visit again."

Here's what I said in 2008:
-------------------
Earlier, I asked you to do more listening and less talking, because you weren't responding to other ideas, just preaching your own.

I, along with other people, want you to be free to engage in comment conversations here. But they need to be dialogues, not speeches.

You never responded to my comments to you about it not being possible to prove something doesn't exist. You objected to people saying "God doesn't exist." You wanted them to prove this is true.

OK, so prove that I'm not the Supreme Being. (I believe I am, though my wife has different ideas, sadly).

Prove that my banning your comments, then reinstating you by my grace later today, isn't a manifestation of the Divine Will. Prove that though I may outwardly appear to be an imperfect humble blogger, husband, father, and what not, inwardly I am the True God and you should worship me (more than you do now, just as my wife should).

For it is my Will that my divinity be kept secret from all but the faithful. And I determine who is to be considered "faithful." So far, no one. But if someone sends me enough money, I might reconsider -- though the revelation of my Godness will have to wait until after my one true disciple dies.

When you answer this question -- how you can prove that I'm not the God I say I am -- then we can have a more fruitful discussion about how it's possible to prove that God doesn't exist.

Sid,

You're looking for some joy ride in the astral that you conceive as somehow more "spiritual" than what is right now.

-There is no joy ride it's serious. It is the proposed theory that our consciousness has a true home where it is supremely happy that is no joke. It isn't some joy ride. We cannot even imagine what it is like.

We just have faith and be as positive as we can. Joy rides are for kids. Sant Mat isn't for kids who like to go on roller coasters. They are done with the whole concept of "fun" that this world gives. They are looking for the one that they Love. They feel something stronger than the joyrides of this world.

Yes this plane is great as well we thank the Lord for everything. Love for God for what he has given in all ways and forms is what we use to meditate and is what makes the practice effortless so that we can be closer to Him. Our love grows with meditation. We continue the practice so that we can know Him, the source of everything that is great, the One that is you me and all.

We don't know him much on this plane he is so illusive. We feel that we have nothing to lose to meditate only gain. We might as well attempt to enter the Great Temple that we are.

But Sant Mat isn't just something that we want to be true. It just sounds right to us. It doesn't subtract from life it behooves us to become better humans and meditate in the morning. It is fulfillment of this world and beyond. It causes us to get deeper into reality fearlessly.

God gives us a crutch that is the path. We find a crutch that makes us have faith that makes us even happier. We know we are not as happy as we wish but we have faith that true fulfillment and true Love exists and that it's the Lord's mercy and grace. We get the best of this world and the next.

Our feelings that this Reality is sensitive to us and cares for us is astounding. We feel the love everywhere. Sant Mat is taking us closer to unity with that Love.

You are making happiness a goal rather than just being here now as it is. That's all there is to it.

-Being sober and healthy and having good morals is a great source of happiness. Just being here now as it is is a great source of happiness. Friends family and life is an indescribably experience in many ways.

But this isn't and end in itself. It is a beginning IMO. Being attached to this world is fine but eventually we get tense that we are limited to this experience. That might be when we find the path.

I have great faith in the Lord of the Souls. He has given me and others great great life and it is pointless to put a limit on what he actually does and is. Everything that is, everything you say I say any thought or feeling is His expression. We cannot understand him at this level. He purposely put us at this level. Here we don't know him we only know mind and maya.

When we feel very happy on this plane we may also feel it comes with a mixed unhappiness. We feel so happy that we don't know what to do with ourselves. We feel something called Love and don't know where to put it or where it can find its everlasting beloved.

We get addicted to happiness and we find it on this plane. We feel love. But Sant Mat tells us that it is larger than that. We are greater than we even think now. We are the indestructible immortal soul. We have existed for all eternity we have been together forever. Meditation is where we feel our love the greatest and attempt to use it as a pass to enter the Kingdom.

Some people die from the pleasures of this world. They don't know themselves or divine happiness so they take it too far with the illusion happiness.

Starting up this path IMO requires us to be happy on this plane and be satisfied with what we have. But it also requires us to not be in denial. We have to realize that we are unknowing of a lot of things. This world isn't everything. We have to want more. That is human nature. We always want more. It's because this isn't our true home.

I have seen lights and stars and heard sounds. I have shot through the universe at incomprehensible speed to a realm of strange and beautiful gardens. So what?

-Yeah so you reached the lower astral plane what are you getting at? At least you proved to yourself that the descriptions in the Sant Mat books are true of that lower astral plane is all I say.


It's just stuff, phenomena, the ultimate quality of which is no different than our everyday experience. The same awareness is present.

-So what. Why give attention to the phenomena as you said? It is visions it is fake illusion like this world. Sant Mat takes us out of this mess.

All you need to do, which is a non-doing, is to quit making your awareness the object of itself and calling it you...

-God is all that there is. My goal is Him. I hope that you understand. I love people I love this world I LOVE REALITY. I love it too much it hurts. It is too great. Who do I give thanks? Do I make a family and give it all to them? Well that in it self is fine but even that is a gift of God.

My family is a gift from God. My life is. I say this because I can't comprehend how God does all the things he does.

Do I just take what is given and forget the giver? This world is astonishing and incredible it charges the soul to unimaginable levels. The Lord is the true friend that makes life full and makes us human beings.

Sid is hopelessly lost in his postulations and is looking for his glasses that he will never find. Why?

If he is wearing them he cannot see them, and if he is wearing them, he is looking through them.

He cannot find the found and the found is the seeking, and the object is always the same...it isn't one.

But Sid keeps going 'round and 'round and says, "Well what is it, the seeker?"

No Sid, there is no seeker.

"But what is seeking?"

The sought.

Tao said:

Sid,

You said: "I'm not trying to do anything here but learn"

Alright, then LEARN this...

You said: "But how can you know that SGSJM has not reached that level or that the level exists?"

-- In the same way, ho can YOU know that I (or others here) have not "reached that level"?

-I don't I'm sorry if it looked that way but I don't. You yourself have said that the level doesn't even exist. But I don't know what things you've experienced you fail to mention them. You say the number of years but not what was in them.

In other words, why do YOU (someone who, in fact, has NOT yet been initiated, and thus has NOT truly ever practiced shabd yoga meditation according to the basic principles of sant mat) have the arrogance to assert that the current RS leader HAS "reached that level"... and yet you turn right around and assert that others (like myself) have NOT "reached that level"???

-I don't do anything it is the Sant Mat theory that points to SGSJM. He is the one teaching surat shabd yoga daily and he is the one that has the lineage. So I'd have faith in someone who actually believes in the path and that Sar Bachan would recommend because he teaches it. Our heart also has to factorize whether we want to have faith in that Master or not.

I don't know your experiences you don't mention them. You may have reached that level I don't know. You don't make it public from what I've seen.


The fact of the matter is that you do NOT have any way of knowing what "level" of spiritual attainment or inner plane or realization I have "reached". You have no knowledge of anyone elses state or level... including both that of GSD and of myself.

-I don't know what you've done, ok.

SGSJM is just who I have faith in. He and Pir Zia have lineages that I have faith in. Whether you have attained something or not I'm sorry to have commented on.

It is merely by faith alone that you assume that GSD has even attained any higher "level" of mystic attainment. And it is also in complete ignorance that you assume that I have NOT.

-Yes it's by faith and I don't know what you've done or haven't.

THIS Sid... is your fundamental error. You DO NOT know what state or what level of mystical attainment or so-called "God-realization" anyone else has attained. And yet you blindly tout GSD as being a Sant and a so-called Master, but then you arrogantly deride others as being the very opposite.

-If you have reached that level then tell me. SGSJM preaches surat shabd yoga and is in a lineage of Masters. I have faith in Sant Mat theory. The person that teaches shabd yoga and are hearts go towards is the shabd guru for us that's all.

THIS is precisely why I say that you are spiritually immature and ignorant, and you are an impudent and disrespectful punk who parrots dogma in an attempt to challenge other older initiates who have far more experience and knowledge and wisdom than you do. You have no humility nor respect for other sadakas, or sages. Anyone who has any moderate or even a mimimal degree of spiritual insight knows that the qualities of humility towards the wise and surrender to truth is key to spiritual advancement, to sadhana. However, you exhibit and possess neither.


-I parrot dogma so that I can see what you have experienced. What is your take on this and that dogma. I'm looking to see that but with detail.

Thus you have no clue as to who you are challenging and debating with, or even the nature of what you are debating about. You have much to learn Sid, and far to go before you will ever understand or appreciate what this forum is about.

-I appreciate that you talk about Sant Mat and your experiences. I hope you can further tell me why your experiences on the path took you off of this path.

If you wish to pursue becoming initiated into Radha Soami Mat and practicing 'surat shabd yoga', then you should simply go ahead and do so. But coming here like an impudent internet troll and posting tons of RS dogma and disrespecting elder RS initiates, is far from what the RS master desires or approves of.

-Well that is for the initiates. I'm not initiated and am looking for input from you about the RS dogma that you've put into practice.

Everything you have been doing here is completely against the will and the wishes and the instructions of the current RS master.

-I'm not following him I'm looking for the critics so I can choose to follow the path or not. What has you experiences including meditation been?

The very fact that you continue to ignore this and disrespect, challenge, ridicule, and argue with other long-time initiates just shows that you are not at all yet suitable or "prepared" for initiation into Sant Mat, nor are you humbly following the master's instructions. You are an immature small fry with a big puffed up ego.


-I don't remember ridiculing I just try to show the RS dogma so you can comment. I didn't know you'd get mad if I felt that you didn't reach God realization. I use you as an example to compare a person who has not realized God and one who hasn't. I try to show what is the meaning of a Master and of a normal person. A Master is one who has reached God and a normal person generally has only been at the level of the senses.

I have FAITH that SGSJM is a GIHF. That faith isn't easy to come by but you still feel insulted, oh well.

If you told me that you've passed all the stages of Sant Mat and reached Anami Desh then I'd be more inclined to think that you deserve the name Shabd incarnate or GIHF as per Sant Mat theory goes. But you don't preach Sant Mat you preach against it seems but maybe I was wrong correct me if I am no problem.

Maybe you have some other qualities or attainments but I'm still waiting on those.

You really don't have a tiny clue as to who you are dealing with here, and until you get off your high horse and stop your repeated impudent spouting and parroting of dogma, you will soon become unwelcome here.

-I spout not so that you spout back but so that you tell me why so and so dogma is wrong via your meditation or experiences.

On the other hand, you could - if you were intelligent and wise - learn a lot here (as well as continue to pursue your intention to gain Sant Mat initation and engage in spiritual sadhana). No one here is telling you that you are wrong for pursuing Sant Mat. You are the one who is calling us and our opinions wrong.

-I don't say your opinions are wrong I try to figure out why you have those opinions.

You came here as a visitor and a guest. If you wish to participate in the discussions, you are welcome, But you are NOT welcome to come here and criticise other's views and insights and experience by repeatedly PREACHING RS dogma to those of us who already know far more about it all than YOU do.

-You know the dogma now tell why it's false.

So is that clear enough for you? And Brian has already given you notice. So either you are going to show some respect for this forum and what it is about, or you should go elsewhere. The choice is yours. But don't think you are going to continue the game you are playing.

-Hopefully you can show me the same respect by telling me why the RS dogma is false.

If you are truly a satsangi, then you will enter into the spirit of Real SATSANG (Association in Truth). Unfortunately, so far, you have not been doing that at all.

-Tell me details of why you left the path.

Never-the-less, to each his own. So good luck to you on your chosen path... and leave others to theirs.

-Thanks brother. I was just trying to throw everything I could at you so that you'd show me as much as you could that I should know about this path.

Brian said:

Sid, we went through all this less than a year ago, as documented on comments to this post:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2008/04/radha-soami-sat/comments/page/3/

I'd forgotten much of this blog's previous Sid history until I re-read some of those comments about your banning, and de-banning, from writing comments.

-Thanks for de-banning me bro.

Obviously you haven't changed. You might ask yourself why your views are almost exactly the same, and why you feel the need to preach to the churchless choir, if you feel that you're on a path of spiritual progress.

-You know why I'm here. I am trying to get answers from people who left the path.

At any rate, I'll repeat what I said in a 2008 comment. I liked what I said then, and I like it now. It looks like we're on a merry-go-round and will end up at the same point: saying "Goodbye Sid; grow up before you visit again."

-Hopefully this time I'll be able to express why I talk the way I do.

Here's what I said in 2008:
-------------------
Earlier, I asked you to do more listening and less talking, because you weren't responding to other ideas, just preaching your own.

-There are other ideas but first I'd like to know what is wrong with Sant Mat.

I, along with other people, want you to be free to engage in comment conversations here. But they need to be dialogues, not speeches.

You never responded to my comments to you about it not being possible to prove something doesn't exist. You objected to people saying "God doesn't exist." You wanted them to prove this is true.

-You think God doesn't exist but I don't know why. You can tell me if you want in detail why you think this way.

IMO the Sant Mat theory (I know you know what it is) says that we can know what we think doesn't exist by inverting our attention and witnessing the thing that witnesses the world. The Soul. Also by further introversion it says that we can experience God concioussness. Like we experience waking sleeping states the theory says there is a level of God that we can reach. The "we" according to Sant Mat theory is that which experiences the senes and can invert to experience the "we" and the creator of the "we." This is the theory now if you could tell me why this can't be proven to ones self that would be great. Many have claimed to have experienced the self that you say doesn't exist and some say they've experienced God that you say doesn't exist.

Why have you left this path to say all this doesn't exist?

OK, so prove that I'm not the Supreme Being. (I believe I am, though my wife has different ideas, sadly).

-Why should I prove that you have reached that level? I have faith in SGSJM and I'd like to have him as my Guru. He preaches Sant Mat has a great lineage IMO and my heart says hes the right person. Sar Bachan says to simply use those things as criteria.

Whether you are at that level or not does not matter. By the Sant Mat theory by following SGSJM I may know.

Prove that my banning your comments, then reinstating you by my grace later today, isn't a manifestation of the Divine Will.

-Everything is the Divine Will so what is your point.

Prove that though I may outwardly appear to be an imperfect humble blogger, husband, father, and what not, inwardly I am the True God and you should worship me (more than you do now, just as my wife should).

-We all are that but most of us have not reached that level of awareness. Sar Bachan gives us the criteria for which to choose a Guru as I stated above. I don't know your level you very well could be at that level despite you declaring you left the path.

For it is my Will that my divinity be kept secret from all but the faithful.

-Same goes for SGSJM. If you are a Master as well that's great. But he preaches the Sound Current and has a great lineage IMHO and my heart goes towards him. Nothing personal on your part.

And I determine who is to be considered "faithful." So far, no one. But if someone sends me enough money, I might reconsider -- though the revelation of my Godness will have to wait until after my one true disciple dies.

-Well if you are money based then I'd rather choose SGSJM. For him the highest seva his disciples can do is doing the meditation.

When you answer this question -- how you can prove that I'm not the God I say I am -- then we can have a more fruitful discussion about how it's possible to prove that God doesn't exist.

-I can prove it to myself but there's no reason. I have faith in a SGSJM for example and if I'm to successfully complete the path under him then being at that level I could decipher who is also at that level and who isn't.

I don't know what your attainments are. But Sant Mat tells us to have faith in a Guru who teaches the path and our hearts trust. Then all the answers are found in Anami Desh.


Tucson said:

Sid is hopelessly lost in his postulations and is looking for his glasses that he will never find. Why?

-I'm not looking for the glasses I'm looking for that which sees through the eyes through the glasses and beyond that.

If he is wearing them he cannot see them, and if he is wearing them, he is looking through them.

-The soul is looking through the glasses and not at itself. When the attention is inward, as you've heard, then we find what we are looking for.

He cannot find the found and the found is the seeking, and the object is always the same...it isn't one.

-What I have found is my physical senses and perception of the imaginary world. I want to look away from the maya and look at the self which sees the maya.

But Sid keeps going 'round and 'round and says, "Well what is it, the seeker?"

No Sid, there is no seeker.

"But what is seeking?"

The sought.

-What are you talking about bro? All I see is this world and my physical body and my thoughts. I have not found anything called a seeker. The seeker is that which perceives the world. The seeker is the Astral body.

Sid, up to a point it's sort of fun to have comment conversations with you. But like I said before, after that point it gets tiresome to be preached at.

So I'm requesting that you take a break from leaving pro-Sant Mat comments for a while (hopefully a long while). You've gotten the courtesy of being allowed to express yourself in 2009, though you're saying almost exactly the same stuff you did in 2008.

I'm an equal opportunity guy regarding anti-preachiness. If you were a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, I'd also be saying to you, "Enough."

I'm not sure what you're like when you converse in person, but on the Internet you come across as someone who is obsessed with speaking long and loud, hoping to win an argument by sheer repetition and wearing out the other person.

If you were sitting in my living room with other people, trying to do most of the talking, not really hearing what others were saying, I'd tell you, "SId, you really need to listen more and talk less." So, that's what I'm saying -- just like I did last year.

Learn how to be a good guest, in a home or on a blog. You've got a strong attraction toward Mastership. My suggestion is that you focus on being more of a humble servant first, fitting in harmoniously where you find yourself rather than trying to bend people into agreeing with your view of reality.

Maybe we should start off anew.

Hi my name is Sid. I noticed the amount of knowledge people on this blog have on different topics of life. A lot of things here are way over my head. I was here a while back but was banned. I remember tAo tried to explain some things to me but it was too high tech.

I'm simply here because I believe in Sant Mat and the RS faith. I'm only 19 but I wish to some day get initiation. But I noticed that the people here are really smart and experienced but have left the path. That kind of stuff at this point doesn't affect me as much as before but I still like to understand these things.

I can see that there are many different ideas going around here but I'm still stuck on Sant Mat.

If there is anything anyone can bring up that would show me why their experiences made them leave the path I'd be highly honored. I'm sorry for the previous headaches I caused.

I didn't realize that I may very well end up like anyone else here who has left the path. It is sad to think the way the dialogues went. I just enjoy discussing the Sant Mat theology. Anyone who has followed or follows this path is my friend I hope this is understood.

Alright Brian I'm sorry for not recognizing that the internet has real people in it LOL. I posted something above if you want to see.

I do feel bad I feel like I've caused damage and headaches here. I hope you can understand that I merely want to know the reasons for people leaving the path. I want to know about people's meditation too. It shouldn't be hard for you all have so much experience and finally left the thing all together.

I don't want to sound very pro-Sant Mat I just want to understand the theory.

Sid,

I was trying not to get too involved but now you make my heart melt. I am a mother and you are only 19 and you sound like a sincere seeker.

You will only be able to apply for initiation when you are 24, so you have plenty of time to do your research, read the books, satisfy your intellect.

Follow your heart, don’t be too concerned about what other people think or say or do. Be honest and true to yourself.

Not all who comment here have left the path.

Sid, your approach is brave and honest. Do what you have to do. Believe what you believe. Most of all, question why exactly you believe and do it. This way you will develop a good inner strength that enables you to be happy to change your mind, do a U turn, invite inquiry of your most cherished platforms of stability and all the while enjoy the dance.

"SGSJM is just who I have faith in. He and Pir Zia have lineages that I have faith in. Whether you have attained something or not I'm sorry to have commented on. "

-- You just spilled the beans. This comment mentioning "Pir Zia" reveals just exactly who you are. I suspected this. You, are a follower of Michael Martin. This means that you follow and parrot someone who is mentally deranged, who is a known delusional schizophrenic. Now everything about you fits together and is obvious. You don't follow the teaching of RS and the instructions of Gurinder Singh... you follow and listen to Michael Martin. You were probably encouraged to come here by Martin to preach dogma and challenge others. And if I were the owner of this site, I would not hesitate to immediately remove you from posting anything more on this site, and I would also delete all or most of your previous comments. You are a troll and you are a follower of someone who is quite delusional and mentally ill.

"Yes it's by faith and I don't know what you've done or haven't."

-- You also do not know what anyone else has done or has not done, including not knowing anything about Gurinder Singh either. You do not know any more about Gurinder than you do about about me. And no one can or will tell you because words prove nothing anyway. Your entire belief is based upon the shallowest of footings - blind faith. You can not know anything about Gurinder, just like you cannot know about me... regardless of what words are given to you.

"I parrot dogma so that I can see what you have experienced. What is your take on this and that dogma. I'm looking to see that but with detail."

-- You parrot doma because that is all you know and all you are capable of. You parrot and preach faulty dogma here because you are a troll for Michael Martin. You are a sick puppy because you follow another sick puppy.

"that is for the initiates. I'm not initiated and am looking for input from you about the RS dogma that you've put into practice."

-- If you desire to learn more about the path of RS, then simply go to RS satsangs and read RS books. This here is not the place for you. But, thats not really what you are up to. You are a fool who follows Michael Martin. I have nothing more to say to you, and I hope Brian gets rid of trolls like you.

"I try to show what is the meaning of a Master and of a normal person."

-- What makes you think you know? This is just more of the same duality that is evident elsewhere in your dogma.

"But you don't preach Sant Mat you preach against it"

-- Wrong. I don't preach anything... neither for, nor against anything. I don't preach. I am into dzogchen. If you want to know what that is, then go search.

"you tell me why so and so dogma is wrong via your meditation or experiences. You know the dogma now tell why it's false."

-- Meditation has nothing to do with it. It is false simply because it is based upon, and framed in duality.

"you can show me the same respect by telling me why the RS dogma is false."

-- I don't owe you anything. Go back and read the archives if you wish to know what has been discussed relative to RS dogma.

"Tell me details of why you left the path."

-- I don't have the time to discuss or belabor such things with insincere trolls like you. Its none of your business anyway. And I did not 'leave' any "path".

"I was just trying to throw everything I could at you so that you'd show me as much as you could that I should know about this path."

-- No, I don't think so. You are only here to assert and preach your dogma. And I told you a long long time ago, I am not interested in your devious little game. If you really want to know what has been said here about the dogma of the path, then go read the archives. You are a fool to think I am going to tediously go back over all that stuff for your sake. And thats not what you want anyway, thats not what you are really up to here.... because when others like Tucson have made an honest effort to to explain it simply clearly for you, you laugh and ridicule and argue some more.

So you are not here to learn anything. You are not fooling me, and you are not fooling Brian. Go back read the archives if you really want to know what has been discussed here about Sant Mat. I don't have the time to belabor it all with a little goon for a known delusional psycho like Michael Martin.


Sid says:

"I'm simply here because I believe in Sant Mat and the RS faith."

-- This is not a site devoted exclusively to RS. If you wish to talk to those who believe strongly in Sant Mat, then you be better to go to an RS satsang meeting. This is a bad place if you are looking for people to support your beliefs.

"I can see that there are many different ideas going around here but I'm still stuck on Sant Mat."

-- Thats entirely your own choice.

"If there is anything anyone can bring up that would show me why their experiences made them leave the path

-- Experiences are not necessarily the reason.

"I just enjoy discussing the Sant Mat theology."

-- Then you would be smart to just go find people who agree with it and who like to discuss theology. I am not one of them.


Tao said:

"SGSJM is just who I have faith in. He and Pir Zia have lineages that I have faith in. Whether you have attained something or not I'm sorry to have commented on. "

-- You just spilled the beans. This comment mentioning "Pir Zia" reveals just exactly who you are. I suspected this. You, are a follower of Michael Martin.

-I've mentioned him on this site like two days ago you saw the post. I wrote that even though Michael Martin is just a normal person who doesn't have a huge lineage behind him I don't discount that he teaches Shabd yoga.

This means that you follow and parrot someone who is mentally deranged, who is a known delusional schizophrenic.

-What makes him a delusional schizophrenic? LOL! It probably takes one to know one jeez. Blind faith right? Oh he teaches Sant Mat and he wasn't appointed as a successor of any Guru he must be a schizo hmm.... Ya got some proof or is it blind faith in other people's sayings?

Am I parroting MM because I mentioned Pir Zia? Well then I'm guilty.

Now everything about you fits together and is obvious. You don't follow the teaching of RS and the instructions of Gurinder Singh... you follow and listen to Michael Martin.

-I don't listen to anyone at this point. I discuss what are these RS/Sant Mat theories about. I'm not trying to become the embodiment of them at this point. It doesn't happen overnight.

I mentioned Pir Zia. Yes I heard of him from MM. I learned that Pir Zia exists and I looked into the personality myself.

You were probably encouraged to come here by Martin to preach dogma and challenge others.

-You don't know this man and talk about him like you read his biography.

And if I were the owner of this site, I would not hesitate to immediately remove you from posting anything more on this site, and I would also delete all or most of your previous comments. You are a troll and you are a follower of someone who is quite delusional and mentally ill.

-I've made mistakes. I've preached instead of discussed.

"Yes it's by faith and I don't know what you've done or haven't."

-- You also do not know what anyone else has done or has not done, including not knowing anything about Gurinder Singh either. You do not know any more about Gurinder than you do about about me. And no one can or will tell you because words prove nothing anyway. Your entire belief is based upon the shallowest of footings - blind faith. You can not know anything about Gurinder, just like you cannot know about me... regardless of what words are given to you.

-Yes I know nothing about you. SGSJM and Pir Zia are teachers of meditation and Love for God which includes all people and things. I feel that there is ample evidence that they teach those things just fine IMO.

"I parrot dogma so that I can see what you have experienced. What is your take on this and that dogma. I'm looking to see that but with detail."

-- You parrot doma because that is all you know and all you are capable of. You parrot and preach faulty dogma here because you are a troll for Michael Martin. You are a sick puppy because you follow another sick puppy.

-Well I guess this is going nowhere. You won't talk about RS. All I ask is to start anew but I don't think you'd trust me and hate me now.

"that is for the initiates. I'm not initiated and am looking for input from you about the RS dogma that you've put into practice."

-- If you desire to learn more about the path of RS, then simply go to RS satsangs and read RS books.

-I just wanted to discuss RS with you.

This here is not the place for you. But, thats not really what you are up to. You are a fool who follows Michael Martin. I have nothing more to say to you, and I hope Brian gets rid of trolls like you.

-I tried to start over tAo. I said lets start over again leave the baggage at the door and discuss RS like real people would in real life for once.

"I try to show what is the meaning of a Master and of a normal person."

-- What makes you think you know? This is just more of the same duality that is evident elsewhere in your dogma.

-The teacher teaches how to do meditation. For example he says simran is good. The student hasn't heard of meditation and learns about simran.

"But you don't preach Sant Mat you preach against it"

-- Wrong. I don't preach anything... neither for, nor against anything. I don't preach. I am into dzogchen. If you want to know what that is, then go search.

-I thought you were preaching along the lines that the RS Masters deceive people. You specifically said that they aren't what they claim to be. You said there is no "you" to realize a "god" that doesn't even exist.

"you tell me why so and so dogma is wrong via your meditation or experiences. You know the dogma now tell why it's false."

-- Meditation has nothing to do with it. It is false simply because it is based upon, and framed in duality.

-Ok then explain what it's based on. From what I thought it is based on preparing for the day we physically die by rehearsing the event through meditation. St. Paul said he "dies daily." Maharaj Charan Singh Ji wrote a book called die to live about meditation. Michael Martin has said that Soami Ji said that he was preparing for death his whole life from age 6.

"you can show me the same respect by telling me why the RS dogma is false."

-- I don't owe you anything. Go back and read the archives if you wish to know what has been discussed relative to RS dogma.

"Tell me details of why you left the path."

-- I don't have the time to discuss or belabor such things with insincere trolls like you. Its none of your business anyway. And I did not 'leave' any "path".

"I was just trying to throw everything I could at you so that you'd show me as much as you could that I should know about this path."

-- No, I don't think so. You are only here to assert and preach your dogma. And I told you a long long time ago, I am not interested in your devious little game.

If you really want to know what has been said here about the dogma of the path, then go read the archives.

-I'd rather discuss it.

You are a fool to think I am going to tediously go back over all that stuff for your sake. And thats not what you want anyway, thats not what you are really up to here.... because when others like Tucson have made an honest effort to to explain it simply clearly for you, you laugh and ridicule and argue some more.

So you are not here to learn anything.

-No because you won't forgive me and begin to discuss RS.

You are not fooling me, and you are not fooling Brian. Go back read the archives if you really want to know what has been discussed here about Sant Mat. I don't have the time to belabor it all with a little goon for a known delusional psycho like Michael Martin.

-While you point your finger at him you have three of your own fingers pointing at yourself. You call him that but why? Because others say so?

Sid says:

"I'm simply here because I believe in Sant Mat and the RS faith."

-- This is not a site devoted exclusively to RS. If you wish to talk to those who believe strongly in Sant Mat, then you be better to go to an RS satsang meeting. This is a bad place if you are looking for people to support your beliefs.

-Look at what Zenjen has said earlier:

"I only recently heard about this. Here is a transcript from the “Seekers’ Guide” by RSSB (page 30):

“We should take our time, ask our questions, get other opinions, read through various books. We should perhaps browse through “critics’ views” on the Internet. We can use this process as an opportunity to reflect on what critics say, then examine and decide the truth for ourselves”."


"I can see that there are many different ideas going around here but I'm still stuck on Sant Mat."

-- Thats entirely your own choice.

-What I was trying to say is that people here may have different ideas than Sant Mat but I would like to discuss SM first. It's like baby steps. Step 1: Why is this path not favorable to them and Step 2 (if it is reached): what path or non-path is thought to be more beneficial and why.

I'm sure people here wouldn't mind talking about why they wouldn't do this path or why it didn't work for them. If I don't come off as a preacher or something and things get understood then we could get somewhere. If not then I'd be happy to discontinue this wastage of time going in circles.

"If there is anything anyone can bring up that would show me why their experiences made them leave the path

-- Experiences are not necessarily the reason.

-So starting this path and leaving it isn't an experience? I want to simply know if anyone want's to talk about why they would not follow this path or why they stopped following it. If they don't want to talk about it then I'll get the message this time around.

"I just enjoy discussing the Sant Mat theology."

-- Then you would be smart to just go find people who agree with it and who like to discuss theology. I am not one of them.

-Well you can think of me as a puffed up egotistical preacher or see that I'm saying sorry for that but still wish to try this again without preaching but discussing RS theology. I'm sure you're tired of this all so you can call it quits if you want.

Sid,

I can see from your responses and incomprehension of some of my comments that you are unfamiliar with Nonduality, an approach to Understanding as expressed in Zen, Taoism, Advaita Vedanta and others. Any serious student and seeker of Truth should IMO expose themselves to such teachings especially before embarking upon the path of Sant Mat or any of its offshoots. There are many excellent books on the subject but the one linked to below might be a good starting point as an overview..

http://www.amazon.com/One-Essential-Nonduality-Jerry-Katz/dp/1591810531/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1234996721&sr=1-1

This would be helpful before engaging in further discussion and debate about Sant Mat on this forum.

gframesch said:

REAL SAINTS-TRUE GODMEN-OF THE-FROM THE-GOD WORLD-GOD KINGDOM-SACH KHAND-SATT LOK-SANT KIRPAL SINGH-BABA SAWAN SINGH-BABA JAIMAL SINGH-SWAMI SHIV DAYAL SINGH TYPE-ARE NOT-NEVER "DO NOTHING" TYPES-"PASHU PAREYT MUGADH KO TAREYN PAHAN PAR UTAREYN-SAINTS GIVE SALVATION TO ANIMALS-TO GHOSTS-TO IDIOT TYPES-DEMENTED TYPES-EVEN TO ROCKS-STONES"-GURU NANAK-"WHEREVER SAINTS WALK THE GRASS-INSECTS UNDER THEIR FEET BECOME-ARE BORN AS HUMANS-FISH AROUND THEIR BODY IN RIVERS-PONDS ARE BORN AS HUMANS-TREES OF WHICH THEY EAT FRUIT OR USE TWIG FOR THEIR TEETH CLEANING ARE BORN AS HUMANS"-BABA SAWAN SINGH JI-PIPAL TREE THAT FELL IN SAWAN ASHRAM-IN 1950s-"WILL BE BORN AS HUMAN"-SAID SANT KIRPAL SINGH JI-SO IT HAPPENED-GFR WAS THERE-BABA JAIMAL SINGH CHEWED LEAF OF TREE SAYING-HE WAS OUR VILLAGE MAN-NOW HAS COME TO TREE BIRTH-I AM RELEASING HIM-LORD RAMA TOUCHED HIS FOOT TO WOMAN STATUE-SHE ROSE UP ALIVE-GURU NANAK SAT UNDER DEAD-WORN TREE AND IT BECAME GREEN-JESUS CURSED FIG TREE AND IT DIED RIGHTAWAY-THESE ARE SAINTS-GOD AS MEN-NOT JOKERS-GURU WAS HIMSELF SAINT SO HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT-ABOUT WHOM-GOD AS MAN-HE WAS TALKING ABOUT-NOT ABOUT KALIYUGA "SATGURUS" WHO ARE NEITHER SATT-TRUTH-GOD NOR GURUS-GODMEN-GOD AS MEN-gframesch.


-gframesch I really wish to know something about what you said. Are you implying that "REAL SAINTS-TRUE GODMEN-OF THE-FROM THE-GOD WORLD-GOD KINGDOM-SACH KHAND-SATT LOK" does not include Baba Gurinder Singh JI? You didn't mention him or Sardar Bahadur Jagat Singh Ji Maharaj or Maharaj Charan Singh Ji? Thanks.

Tucson said:

Sid,

I can see from your responses and incomprehension of some of my comments that you are unfamiliar with Nonduality, an approach to Understanding as expressed in Zen, Taoism, Advaita Vedanta and others. Any serious student and seeker of Truth should IMO expose themselves to such teachings especially before embarking upon the path of Sant Mat or any of its offshoots. There are many excellent books on the subject but the one linked to below might be a good starting point as an overview..

http://www.amazon.com/One-Essential-Nonduality-Jerry-Katz/dp/1591810531/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1234996721&sr=1-1

This would be helpful before engaging in further discussion and debate about Sant Mat on this forum.


-Alright I've started to read up on non-duality. I think this was a good recommendation.

Sid, you are creating confusion in this forum by being sloppy with who you quote. You are misquoting me. I did NOT say what you attribute to me. Here is an example...
You wrote:

"Tao said:

"SGSJM is just who I have faith in. He and Pir Zia have lineages that I have faith in. Whether you have attained something or not I'm sorry to have commented on. "

-- Fyi, I did NOT write the above at all. It would be better if you would simply make your comments without repeating everything that others write in your comments. It makes your comments far too lengthy. No one wants to plow through all of that just to read your cpomments. So just make your comments concise and to the point. You donm't have to quote every single thing that other people write. Its totally unnecessary and tedious to read. And its also causing YOU to make MIS-quotes as I indicated above.

Moving on ahead... you wrote:

"I wrote that even though Michael Martin is just a normal person"
-- Michael Martin is not a "just a normal person". And he does not "teach" anything. He is mentally disturbed. He is a seriously delusional schizophrenic. He exibits all sorts of magical thinking, and he has considerable psychoses. And if you follow and make excuses for someone like that, then you aren't much better than he is.

You wrote: "What makes him a delusional schizophrenic? LOL! It probably takes one to know one jeez."

-- Because he exhibits all the signs and symptoms of a delusional schizophrenic. And I can see that because I have a post-graduate degree in psychology. And YOU are immature, barely out of high school, and don't know anything. You are also a sick puppy and your response shows it. I am tired of your game here, and I hope Brian kicks your phony ass out of here soon. I am tired of your nonsense and your overloading this forum with your juvenile postings.

Examples of your garbage:

"Oh he teaches Sant Mat and he wasn't appointed as a successor of any Guru he must be a schizo hmm"

"Am I parroting MM because I mentioned Pir Zia? Well then I'm guilty."

"I mentioned Pir Zia. Yes I heard of him from MM."

"You don't know this man and talk about him like you read his biography."

-- Wrong. I know all about him.

"I've preached instead of discussed. I parrot dogma so that I can see what you have experienced. What is your take on this and that dogma. I'm looking to see that but with detail."

"You won't talk about RS. All I ask is to start anew" "I just wanted to discuss RS with you."

-- I have no interest in talking about RS. And "start anew" you say? You... are so full of shit.

"I said lets start over again leave the baggage at the door and discuss RS like real people would in real life for once."

-- You don't get it, do you? This forum is not devoted exclusively to RS. In fact, most people here do NOT really desire to talk about RS. RS is a dead issue here. There are other much more relevant topics to explore. So that is why you should go elsewhere if you want to discuss RS. But maybe you'll find someone here who will discuss RS with you. But I doubt it. You hgave been pushing yor RS crap in everyones ears and down everyone's throat ever since you came back here.

"Michael Martin has said that Soami Ji said that he was preparing for death his whole life from age 6."

-- Michael Martin is a mentally deranged person, imo. He is a delusional schizophrenic, imo. He is a psychotic individual, imo. So why would you pay any attention to anything he says? Are you retarded? I don't think so... but you are being terribly ignorant and foolish. Imo, you are a stupid fool to waste even one moment your time on an menatlly insane individual such as Michael Martin. You had better wise up real quick, if you wish to get somehere and make progress in your life. You are a young gy, but you are making a big mistake listening to somehone like Michael Martin. That's the old story of "the blind leading the blind".


"While you point your finger at him [Michael Martin] you have three of your own fingers pointing at yourself. You call him that but why? Because others say so?

-- No. Because in my academic opinionj, he is clearly mentally insane. I already told you, imo, Martin is a delusional schizophrenic... and one of his many delusions is that he claims to be a divinely appointed sant sat-guru to whom God speaks to daily. I am not going to go into the other delusions that are too numerous to mention. Everyone who has interacted with him, knows without question that he is insane.

"Look at what Zenjen has said earlier"

-- Zenjen is a nice person, but zenjen doesn't know shit about the issue.

"people here may have different ideas than Sant Mat but I would like to discuss SM first."

-- This is NOT an RS discussion forum. You should go to the " radhasoamistudies " yahoo group.

"I'm sure people here wouldn't mind talking about why they wouldn't do this path or why it didn't work for them."

-- Well perhaps someone will accomodate you.... IF you "don't come off as a preacher".

"I want to simply know if anyone want's to talk about why they would not follow this path or why they stopped following it."

-- Perhaps someone will consent to tell you their reasons, their story.


I thought it was clear that the quotes and - dashes were my writing. I don't think anybody would confuse what I've said and you've said.

I said "tao said:" because I copied and pasted your whole post. I didn't mean to say that little quote that you quoted me on was what you said.

Tao you have said:

"....he claims to be a divinely appointed sant sat-guru..."

-He claims to be a divinely appointed Sant Sat Guru but so did Sant Kirpal Singh Ji. SKSJ was not appointed by MSSJ.

Tao:
" to whom God speaks to daily."

-Well he must be referring to the inner Master.

gframesch what is this:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4727439/CHARAN-SINGHYOU-HAVE-TWO-WEEKS-LIFE-LEFTFROM-GFRAMESCH-gfr#document_metadata


Sid wrote: "He claims to be a divinely appointed Sant Sat Guru but so did Sant Kirpal Singh Ji.

-- That is absolutely incorrect. Kirpal did NOT claim to be "divinely appointed" at all. You are totally mistaken and ill-informed. Kirpal said that his guru Sawan had conferred the mantle of mastership upon him direct via Sawan's gaze prior to his passing.

Sid wrote: "SKSJ was not appointed by MSSJ."

-- No, that is not at all what Kirpal related. (see above) Also, a sat-guru cannot made by being "appointed". A true guru becomes a guru either by a direct spiritual transmission from his guru, or by dint of his superior sadhana and realization - his awakened consciousness. The so-called "appointed" guru thing is nothing more than a political manuever. It is mudane. A true and genuine guru does not happen by being "appointed" by somebody else... nor by wills, documents, inheritances etc. A guru is a guru only because he is in a state of enlightened wisdom. A guru can never be made by mere "appointment". That is a fallacy and a lie.

Sid wrote: "Well he [referring to Michael Martin] must be referring to the inner Master."

-- You are wrong. That is incorrect. Michael Martin has claimed repeatedly - countless times - that God speaks to him, and that God speaks and tells him things.... and apparently almost daily. He claims that (quote) "Anami Purusha" speaks to him and tells him things.

Fyi "Anami Purusha" means God... or literally: the Nameless Divine Person... which otherwise simply means GOD. He was not referring to any such "inner Master". He actually SAYS "Anami Purush". And that is not the name of his master, his guru.... inner or outer. Anami Purusha is the name that he (and sometimes RS) uses to refer to the Supreme Godhead, the "Nameless Lord", or Radha Soami.

So Sid, this just goes to show that, again, you are naive and are not at all informed, and your self-assured speculations are way far off-base.

To put it simply, this fellow Micheal Martin is suffering from extreme magical thinking and obvious delusions. He claims to perceive things which do not exist.... which is psychoses. He is, without any doubt, a cronic delusional schizophrenic, imo.

And you are a fool to think or believe otherwise. Bt you do, probably because you too have a considerable degree of magical thinking as well.

A suggestion: If you would take out, unload, ALL of the unfounded beliefs from out of your mysticism, and just simply pursue basic natural and uncontrived meditation, then you would be way better off than all the unproven beliefs and dualistic nonsense that you are tangeled up in. Don't think, don't talk... just remain conscious of, or meditate upon - the ever-fresh ever-present timeless moment.

[ Everything else you are holding and entertaining and believing... is an obstruction to your true awakening. ]

There is now nothing more I have to say to you.


Tao thanks for the suggestion at the bottom I appreciate it. I read about non-dualism today. It said that we are to drop the beliefs like you said.

But Is it not that Sant Mat teaches that the level of consciousness God is the most non-dual? The experience of this world is that we just control our own bodies and nothing else. In the 8th region the body (in theory) is the entire cosmos regions everything. It is the SM theory that everything is God and when we merge into God we become everything not just this one physical body.

I'm just trying to discuss theories, please don't kill me. Below I commented on your opinions and theories nothing personal I respect you but my understanding is different so correct me if I'm wrong on my assumptions please:


Tao said:

"-- That is absolutely incorrect. Kirpal did NOT claim to be "divinely appointed" at all. You are totally mistaken and ill-informed. Kirpal said that his guru Sawan had conferred the mantle of mastership upon him direct via Sawan's gaze prior to his passing."

-All I say is that the will means nothing. It is the Master who will make claims that his Sadhana has caused him to be a Sat Guru or that the gaze happened to make him make those claims.

God puts rules on these things he doesn't make it chaotic. He generally does it this way. But I say generally because I don't think it's possible to put a limit on what God can really do. The theory is that he generally has the new Master get the gaze or Sadhana from their initiated Master and that they the teach surat shabd yoga. No will or announcements mean anything. HBSSJ never announced anything about MKSJ being a Param Sant.

Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji was in the will of MCSJ but that doesn't mean squat. It was the gaze or the Sadhana that counts. It is not just this one Guru is the only Guru because he was in the will. No. That's why KSJM was also a Param Sant.

Tao said:

"A true guru becomes a guru either by a direct spiritual transmission from his guru, or by dint of his superior sadhana and realization - his awakened consciousness."

-Yes exactly. It's not by the will that the Master leaves behind. That's all I say. The theory is that Michael Martin did the Sadhana.

Tao said:

"Fyi "Anami Purusha" means God... or literally: the Nameless Divine Person... which otherwise simply means GOD. He was not referring to any such "inner Master". He actually SAYS "Anami Purush". And that is not the name of his master, his guru.... inner or outer. Anami Purusha is the name that he (and sometimes RS) uses to refer to the Supreme Godhead, the "Nameless Lord", or Radha Soami."

-No. He calls Him Anami Purush because the real form of the Master is Anami Purush. He has realized that the inner Master is in reality a manifestation of Anami Purush. He has experienced the merger of himself AP and his Master.

He knows that AP can come into any form to speak a message he can do whatever he wants. It can be a Master or a vision or whatever AP gives him.

The Saints are the Sons of God. There is no question that the formless Lord speaks to them...... in whatever fashion he likes.

Tao said:

"To put it simply, this fellow Micheal Martin is suffering from extreme magical thinking and obvious delusions. He claims to perceive things which do not exist.... which is psychoses. He is, without any doubt, a cronic delusional schizophrenic, imo."

-I'm prepared to say you lost this one.

Sid writes:

"But Is it not that Sant Mat teaches that the level of consciousness God is the most non-dual?"

-- You do not yet understand non-duality. Non-duality means, in a sense, that there is ONLY God. Whatever level of consciousness, is irrelevant.

"It is the SM theory that everything is God and when we merge into God we become everything not just this one physical body."

-- That is incorrect. That is the illusion of duality. We are are not, and never have been "just this one physical body". The body is part of totality. And if everything really IS God (as you say that SM postulates), then there is no one existing apart or separate from God, who can or needs to merge "into God", and similarly, no separate God for anything or anyone to merge into.

"my understanding is different so correct me if I'm wrong on my assumptions please"

-- You are not wrong if you simply try to maintain an open-mind, and refrain from becoming locked into dogma and belief, then you will advance and gaining insight and direct personal experience and knowledge... rather than mere parroting of concepts and blind faith and presumed beliefs acquired from other outside sources. If you just remain very open-minded and proceed in a scientific manner, then you will gain direct insight and genuine realization and real wisdom, and so you will not need to rely upon any heresay or any dogma or religious notions and beliefs.

"It is the Master who will make claims that his Sadhana has caused him to be a Sat Guru"

-- It is irrelevant what anyone says or "claims". It is simply all a matter of who actually has the goods, the genuine realization, the enlightened wisdom. Any common fool or joker can repeat words and dogma.

"God puts rules on these things he doesn't make it chaotic."

-- There are no such rules. That is a false and mistaken presumption.

"don't think it's possible to put a limit on what God can really do."

-- God doesn't "do" anything. Either God IS Everything, or else God is merely an illusory human idea.

"It is not just this one Guru is the only Guru because he was in the will. No. That's why KSJM was also a Param Sant."

-- No-one is Guru. Every-one is Guru.


"The theory is that Michael Martin did the Sadhana."

-- That is merely your assumption. It is simply heresay. Again, M. Martin is undoubtedly a delusional schizophrenic, so anything he says about himself is highly questionable. And it doesn't matter what he says... it only matters what he exibits. He does not exhibit the qualities or the enlightened wisdom of a genuine sat-guru. He is a fraud. And there is no one anywhere, who takes him seriously. And for what its worth, the RSSB itself has even denounced him.... and for good reason. He has obvious psychiatric issues.

"He calls Him Anami Purush because the real form of the Master is Anami Purush."

-- NO. You are absolutely incorrect. In Sant mat terminology, Anami Purush is a reference to the supreme Godhead, not the guru/master. It doesn't matter what a psycho like Martin says.

"He [M. Martin] has realized that the inner Master is in reality a manifestation of Anami Purush."

-- No. That is mere word jugglery... which is quite typical of him.

"He has experienced the merger of himself AP and his Master."

-- That is nothing but pretentious meaningless mumbo-jumbo and heresay. The guy says alot of things... but the guy is delusional. Do you somehow not understand that?

"He knows that AP can come into any form to speak a message he can do whatever he wants."

-- More pseudo-spiritual mumbo-jumbo.


"The Saints are the Sons of God. There is no question that the formless Lord speaks to them"

-- No, that is nonsense. All beings, I reapeat, ALL beings are the "Sons of God"... and everything in the manifest universe is the voice of God.

You have a long way to go yet in your spiritual understanding, and you won't progress at all, as long as you keep listening to a mentally ill psychiatric case like you are doing. I am not going to keep repeating that to you. You are foolish and unintelligent if you pay any more attention to such individuals.

tAo said: "To put it simply, this fellow Micheal Martin is suffering from extreme magical thinking and obvious delusions. He claims to perceive things which do not exist.... which is psychoses. He is, without any doubt, a cronic delusional schizophrenic, imo."

Sid responded: "I'm prepared to say you lost this one."

-- Lost what? There is nothing for me to lose. You are the one who is the fool and a loser for listening to a person who is without any doubt, a delusional psychotic.

And you are again revealing that you are actually here as a troll for MM and his garbage. Yo had a chance, but its obvious (at least to me and to Brian and to Tucson) what you are really up to.

So therfore, I have nothing more to say to you, and so don't bother asking me any more questions... I won't respond. You played the same identical bullshit game here last year, and it eventually became necessary for Brian to put an end to it and you. You are not what you pretend to be, and you are especially not worth wasting any more of my time or involvement.

You are just as fucked up and crazy as is that psycho MM, which is who you are really aligned with. Enough of your phony bullshit games with the good folks of this forum. Go fuck yourself and the insane MM that you rode in on.


Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Welcome


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.