Comments on Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critiqueTypePad2009-01-28T20:34:44ZBrian Hineshttps://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2009/01/chapter-4-of-rssb-expose-belief-system-critique/comments/atom.xml/Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31ff7441970b2012-09-20T05:25:49Z2012-09-20T17:39:38ZJanya BarrishNo Master Needed 王 維...<p>No Master Needed </p>
<p><br />
王 維 Wang Wei</p>
<p>My heart in middle age found the Way.<br />
And I came to dwell at the foot of this mountain.<br />
When the spirit moves, I wander alone<br />
Amid beauty that is all for me....<br />
I will walk till the water checks my path,<br />
Then sit and watch the rising clouds –<br />
And some day meet an old wood-cutter<br />
And talk and laugh and never return.</p>
<p>Tang Poetry<br />
Burn the Books</p>
<p><br />
</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c2cc4ac970c2012-09-20T01:55:55Z2012-09-20T02:53:55ZJanya BarrishTruth Seeker, You write: That's why I said I've heard stories from actual people and NOT from discourses or books....<p>Truth Seeker,</p>
<p>You write:<br />
That's why I said I've heard stories from actual people and NOT from discourses or books.<br />
These people left the path and were dragged back in a deleterious way which I can't mention. </p>
<p><br />
Are you insinuating that "these" people who left the RSSB path were brought back in some ominious manner? </p>
<p>Hmmm, what could the "dragging" back involve? Hmm... Let me guess: "Live" Nightmares, sent by some Riddhi or Siddhi technique? Terror sent to them by some other occult technique? Demonic things sent to hunt them down? The Men in Black? Alien or a Master like abduction? Some other form of hidden magic? </p>
<p>This is all the more reason that people should research every aspect of that which they wish to join themselves to. Truth Seeker, there is a very very important esoteric tenet and that is: NEVER TO ENCROACH ON SOMEONE'S FREE WILL. Any person or system that does this in any way, including underhanded ways cannot be one of righteousness.</p>
<p>Therefore, indeed one must reconsider the saying: Love one another as I have loved you because these type of people or groups cannot be of the "one another group," and therefore should not be recipients of so sacred a thing as love.</p>
<p><br />
</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744dafd19970d2012-09-19T22:11:54Z2012-09-20T02:53:55ZJanya BarrishSo true Brian. Everything is in flux even to the quarks and just knowing this is makes one feel lighter....<p><br />
So true Brian. </p>
<p>Everything is in flux even to the quarks and just knowing this is makes one feel lighter. </p>
<p>Therefor the the saying, "This too shall pass" and the harmonizing wisdom this thought brings.</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744dad7dc970d2012-09-19T21:42:40Z2012-09-20T02:53:55ZJanya BarrishSawan Singh, Mastana ji incident is indicative of some Siddhi or Riddhi occurrence. Its very interesting from this point of...<p><br />
Sawan Singh, Mastana ji incident is indicative of some Siddhi or Riddhi occurrence. Its very interesting from this point of view, and that is all. It demonstrates that a person's, in this case Baba Sawan Singh ji's spiritual being, light etc. (I won't go into those details here), instead of going off into the elsewhere, found a place, a human body to get into, a/k/a "possession." That is all. It may be meaningful to his followers no doubt. And of-course its very nice that you shared it with us Y F. </p>
<p>My brother, when he was in high school had an experience. A dear classmate of his clearly and substantially "appeared "to him late one night in a ghostly sort of light and energy while my brother was studying at his desk. He made eye contact with my brother and bade him goodbye. My brother even heard him speak. The next day at school, my brother found out that his friend had died that night. Need I say more?</p>
<p>It might well be that there are different paths for different people, according to their Karma or nature. </p>Truthseeker2012 commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c2b47a8970c2012-09-19T21:04:40Z2012-09-20T02:53:55ZTruthseeker2012Yeah, stories are so convincing. (Not.) The BIble is full of them. The Koran is full of them. The Vedas...<p>Yeah, stories are so convincing. (Not.) The BIble is full of them. The Koran is full of them. The Vedas are full of them. And they continue being told today. Stories are worthless without evidence, except as interesting fiction. Quote.</p>
<p>That's why I said I've heard stories from actual people and NOT from discourses or books.<br />
These people left the path and were dragged back in a deleterious way which I can't mention. </p>Roger commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744da52bb970d2012-09-19T19:44:55Z2012-09-20T02:53:55ZRoger"That what SAINTS alone know what is real experience and what is not real experience,...." ---So, only a so-called Saint,...<p>"That what SAINTS alone know what is real experience and what is not real experience,...."</p>
<p>---So, only a so-called Saint, alone knows only the real? Which Saint is/was that? </p>
<p>Experiences need to be verified? If I have an amazing experience viewing a diamond. Can a certified jeweler verify my real exact experience? Is it possible to have a not real experience of viewing a diamond, where the unrealness can be verifiied by a jeweler? </p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31fc6722970b2012-09-19T18:32:03Z2012-09-19T18:41:42ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourBut what for that FACT that mastana ji became SAWAN singh baba ji for that day, Now is this normal...<p>But what for that FACT that mastana ji became SAWAN singh baba ji for that day,<br />
Now is this normal as usual experience.<br />
There are many such LIVE experiences,<br />
which can help us evaluate what is reality and what is not,<br />
because as per anurag sagar everything seems to be same.<br />
Can any normal person can make out by seeing a white stone that it is just a stone or a diamond,Only and experience jeweler can know it,because he knows the real thing.<br />
That what SAINTS alone know what is real experience and what is not real experience,<br />
Not to forget i agree everyone has experience,<br />
but they need to be verified.</p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744d9f6bb970d2012-09-19T18:29:18Z2012-09-19T18:41:42ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourAll your questions have been answered in ANURAG SAGAR very clearly and beautifully, But if at all your believe in...<p>All your questions have been answered in ANURAG SAGAR very clearly and beautifully,<br />
But if at all your believe in that Book.<br />
It has everything in DETAIL.<br />
One of the best SPIRITUAL BOOK every one should read.<br />
It explains all what experience is real whats unreal,<br />
what is god what is not god.<br />
what is allah who is krishna who is jesus.<br />
</p>Blogger Brian commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31fc5969970b2012-09-19T18:20:29Z2012-09-19T18:41:42ZBlogger Brianhttp://profile.typepad.com/brihinesYour Friend, everybody has experiences. As Janya said in a recent comment, the question is whether those experiences mean anything....<p>Your Friend, everybody has experiences. As Janya said in a recent comment, the question is whether those experiences mean anything.</p>
<p>Christians have experience of Jesus. Muslims of Allah. Hindus of Krishna. Sant Mat devotees of the guru who is God. So what? Lots of experiences, everybody experiencing what they believe in. </p>
<p>The mind is a wonderful thing. It can imagine stuff that doesn't exist. </p>
<p>There's another way. Buddhism and Taoism, in my opinion, teach it best. Understand the "emptiness" of everything, including you and your experiences. </p>
<p>Nothing stands alone. Everything is interdependent. This understanding liberates us from fixation on experiences, on our self, on believing in an unchanging enlightenment.</p>
<p>Like I often say, there are many ways. Believing there is only one is a big mistake. Reality isn't so simple as to be limited to a single dogma, whether this be Sant Mat, Christianity, or anything else.</p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c2a7130970c2012-09-19T17:53:55Z2012-09-19T18:29:21ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourBy being being one i wasted my time and money by buying radhasoami i wasted time and money. Now i...<p>By being being one i wasted my time and money<br />
by buying radhasoami i wasted time and money.<br />
Now i do not trust brain more to buy his suggested book.<br />
Because Brain you have lost the path,<br />
path has not left you,you left it.<br />
Now few replied to your post follows<br />
Brain said:<br />
Yeah, stories are so convincing. (Not.) The BIble is full of them. The Koran is full of them. The Vedas are full of them. And they continue being told today. Stories are worthless without evidence, except as interesting fiction.</p>
<p>"""Yes they are stories which happened,and mostly they are real and rest manipulated,<br />
Like Agra lineage after break up of their lineage have all distorted and manipulated records.<br />
You talk about evidence,<br />
you are the proof,you are the evidence your the one who can experience,<br />
now once something is said by saint,<br />
we cant get to the reality until we experience to that level,<br />
and the reason of your off track is you havent reached that level,<br />
its simple brian and it happens to many,few still stick to the path,by having never give up attitude some like you finally decide to quit,<br />
I have known to the persons who had direct LIVE experience,<br />
which is actually un describable in this post,<br />
But i will tell you one incident,which my granddad with my grandmom witnessed live,<br />
The day Sawan singh baba ji left this world,<br />
his power was also transferred to MASTANA ji,<br />
disciple of sawan singh baba ji,who by the order of sawan singh baba ji was preaching santmat from SIRSA,<br />
You know what the day sawan singh baba ji left this world,<br />
on that very day everyone witness a light getting into MASTANA ji,<br />
and MASTANA JI on that day APRIL 2nd 1948 MASTANA ji took the disguise of SAWAN SINGH JI MAHARAJ,<br />
Now what do you call this,which science will you call this,<br />
there are only two things either it happened,<br />
or i m lying,<br />
but you believe it or not,it happened<br />
On april 2nd 1948 mastana ji was in disguise of SAWAN singh baba ji LIVE,<br />
Everyone present saw this,<br />
and there is no mention about anywhere in any book.<br />
And one more thing,<br />
might be it sounds silly to you <br />
which i came to know this april<br />
that every year on april 2nd it heavily rains in delhi,<br />
and its happening since 1948 2nd april,<br />
so every years APRIL 2nd season or no season it heavily rains in delhi,<br />
and this time i was in delhi on 2nd april,<br />
because MASTANA ji celebrates APRIL 2nd has his birthday,<br />
so there are many facts brain,<br />
you would mind what i m going to say,<br />
but its again a fact true fact,<br />
INDIA is the land of spirituality,they are fortunate who born in india,<br />
because here you can see,believe and experience,<br />
which is not possible else where on EARTH.<br />
Even jesus got enlightenment in india,which the west disagree and never discuss about it.</p>
<p>There are many things BRIAN which cant be written,which cant be understood,which cant be explained.<br />
Only experienced.<br />
All the saints have explained the same thing,<br />
they have something in them,<br />
that we get dragged to there sayings,<br />
you yourself was attached to it for 35 years..""<br />
So these all things one has to be lucky to get in touch with those souls who will explore you the reality of real spirituality,by being in there company,you can understand everything.<br />
Master has given chance to all of us to become MASTER<br />
but we actually do not trust him,we doubt,<br />
we analyze,<br />
we do not follow what we should.<br />
and later on blame to master and the path.</p>
<p><br />
ANURAG SAGAR from KABIR DAS says it all.<br />
But still this mysterious minds have questions questions questions and doubts,<br />
and thats the hindrance in path.</p>
<p>Go visit the hill station sangat in india,<br />
you will come to know what is santmat<br />
what is a seeker what is a disciple and what he is capable of.<br />
</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31fbe72e970b2012-09-19T16:49:54Z2012-09-19T18:41:42ZJanya BarrishI thought I would take a break from posting, but its hard to when people can't get to the basic...<p>I thought I would take a break from posting, but its hard to when people can't get to the basic issue:</p>
<p>As I see it the heart of the matter is this:</p>
<p>Are experiences of one type or another more important to a person than knowledge and understanding? Are unique and wonderful experiences in the "inner realms", as exciting and sensational as they are, more important, than KNOWING WHO YOU ARE (I don't mean this in the ordinary sense of knowing oneself, obviously)?</p>
<p><br />
Questions like this come up:</p>
<p>What am I experiencing?<br />
Who is doing the experiencing?<br />
Is this an astral experience?<br />
Is this an experience occurring in the mental plane? (Rupa ,Arupa states?)or the Buddhi plane or higher?<br />
What is self, where is self, who is self?<br />
Who or what is the I?<br />
Who am I?<br />
What/Who is the self that is spread out into the physical world, when, (where) there is no more a sense of separation between subject (me) and object (everything else outside in the physical world). How is this attained? (Very rare is the person who is able to experience this)</p>
<p>Why is the physical world so very important? Why is it that we can only find our "SELF" in the PHYSICAL WORLD? How is it that we have FREEDOM only in the PHYSICAL WORLD and NOT IN ANY INNER REALM?</p>
<p>Most everybody has no idea of what pure perception of the physical world is - all of us, the moment we direct our senses to the outside world, and have feelings or think about it,we are not purely in the physical world, other "things" are playing into it. The pure physical world experience is NOT where there are feelings or thinking, it is pure contemplation of THE PHYSICAL WORLD, NATURE. Not some picture images inside our heads or some other dimension inside ourselves. These may be valid as well but to know the REAL SELF, we NEED this PHYSICAL WORLD and THIS is something else.</p>
<p>Conclusion: Ignoring the importance of the physical world, PINDA as is it is called in Santh Math,is a trap.</p>
<p><br />
Sorry about the caps, but I need to emphasis and the bold HTML tag doesn't seem to be working for me.</p>Blogger Brian commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31fb7fe8970b2012-09-19T15:29:12Z2012-09-19T17:46:10ZBlogger Brianhttp://profile.typepad.com/brihinesYeah, stories are so convincing. (Not.) The BIble is full of them. The Koran is full of them. The Vedas...<p>Yeah, stories are so convincing. (Not.) The BIble is full of them. The Koran is full of them. The Vedas are full of them. And they continue being told today. Stories are worthless without evidence, except as interesting fiction.</p>
<p>Did you know that heaven is real, Jesus is real, and God sits in a REALLY big chair? It must be true. There's a story about it. You can even buy it and get next day delivery.<br />
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Real-Little-Astounding-Story/dp/0849946158/" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Real-Little-Astounding-Story/dp/0849946158/</a></p>Truthseeker2012 commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c29abda970c2012-09-19T15:14:10Z2012-09-19T18:41:42ZTruthseeker2012Your Friend- I agree, I have heard so much stuff, not in Satsangs but from actual people that live in...<p>Your Friend- I agree, I have heard so much stuff, not in Satsangs but from actual people that live in my area. The stuff I have heard is probalby enough to take some ex satsangis back to the path, it did to one follower. </p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31fb0959970b2012-09-19T13:58:26Z2012-09-19T17:53:59ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourIt is very very simple, if a seeker a disciple isn't able to see the results he can't blame master....<p>It is very very simple,<br />
if a seeker a disciple isn't able to see the results he can't blame master.<br />
He himself alone is responsible.<br />
</p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c293ce1970c2012-09-19T13:49:12Z2012-09-19T17:53:59ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourtruthseeker2012 do not share anything in this blog, because no one will either believe it and rather will make fun...<p>truthseeker2012<br />
do not share anything in this blog,<br />
because no one will either believe it and rather will make fun of it,<br />
let them claim there fake statements stuff,<br />
janya seems to be interesting in knowing the facts,<br />
but if you want to share anything do it in personal emails that too after knowing the complete details and authenticity of the person then only share,<br />
if not another day you will found your emails published here.<br />
My faith in path is stead fast,and it has built up stronger by my own personal experiences.</p>
<p><br />
</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31f64dd8970b2012-09-18T21:19:54Z2012-09-19T03:01:58ZJanya BarrishTruthseeker - You ought to document the information along with names, dates, places and share it as well. Anecdotes and...<p>Truthseeker - You ought to document the information along with names, dates, places and share it as well. Anecdotes and stories are always interesting and especially coming from the experiences of the older generation.</p>Truthseeker2012 commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744d35168970d2012-09-18T19:22:30Z2012-09-19T03:01:58ZTruthseeker2012Your Friend- you have hit the nail on the head, I like your example about Oxford University. I know the...<p>Your Friend- you have hit the nail on the head, I like your example about Oxford University.<br />
I know the truth, I get my facts and information from real people, the internet can be saturated with crass. There are many people I know who are Baba Sawan Singh initiates and have been with him closely, I also know someone who has a vast amount of knowledge on Jaimal Singh, the information comes from the son which was passed on from his father.</p>
<p>I can tell you that Mike's history has zero correlation with the stuff I have heard from the initiates, these initiates are over 100 and still going strong and have rock hard faith in RS.</p>Blogger Brian commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c237580970c2012-09-18T17:43:28Z2012-09-19T03:01:58ZBlogger Brianhttp://profile.typepad.com/brihinesYour Friend, you don't practice what you preach. As you've probably noted, I've edited several of your recent comments to...<p>Your Friend, you don't practice what you preach. As you've probably noted, I've edited several of your recent comments to take out profane personal insults directed at me and other people who comment on this blog.</p>
<p>Wow. So this is what your supposed "spiritual" practice has gotten you: the ability to curse, insult, and disparage other people? Congratulations. You can keep your "spiritual" practice. I'm happy with my own.</p>
<p>Further, you say that the Internet is a vast ocean where you can drowned, yet you spend a lot of time writing lengthy messages to post on the Internet. Huh? Don't you see that you are doing exactly what you are criticizing other people of doing?</p>
<p>Namely, expressing your views in cyberspace. You've got a right to do that. So does everybody else. Just keep in mind that there's no proof anyone, including you, knows any more than anybody else about what, if anything, lies beyond physical reality. </p>
<p>Everybody has experiences. Sant Mat believers have experiences. Christians have experiences. Buddhists have experiences. Atheists have experiences. All these experiences usually support our personal view of reality, because that's how the mind works: we see what we expect and want to see.</p>
<p>Only science has a solid way of breaking out of this subjectivity.</p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744d2bae6970d2012-09-18T17:17:48Z2012-09-19T03:01:58ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourJanya i will tell you one more thing i have live recent videos of many disciples and sewadars who are...<p>Janya i will tell you one more thing<br />
i have live recent videos of many disciples and sewadars who are from sawan singh baba jis time,still alive age group 78-95,<br />
who has many live experiences and live incidents to say,<br />
i can show up in a video uploaded in youtube,<br />
but i will never,<br />
because being a truth,this bloggers will say,especially Mike,<br />
that this is all an scripted video,<br />
and they just told what was told them to say,<br />
so there is no point in proving anything,<br />
forget santmat,<br />
Anything you believe should come from DIRECT PRECEPTION<br />
i do not believe in 2nd hand 3rd hand knowledge.<br />
Have you ever though if BEAS has so many weak links,<br />
why is it flourishing,<br />
what you think only Brian is the one who left because he was unable to see any benefit,<br />
there are many many many more like brains,<br />
but they just move away silently,brain just raised a voice,<br />
Internet is a vast ocean,<br />
a person trying to get into it,will be drowned,very easily.</p>
<p>Mike created this beas secret history out of blue,with the help of agra lineage,<br />
everyone have their choice and favourites and likes and dislikes,<br />
so simple mike dislike beas and like agra..</p>
<p>there are many people i see who lose hope,<br />
but who ever lose hope,they are themself to be blame,not anyone..</p>
<p>but i even see thousands of joining,<br />
i cant believe muslims are getting more into santmat,<br />
this is strange,<br />
but its happening.<br />
so getting in or out is a part.<br />
There was a student who went to study in oxford,because of his own weakness,his unable to grasp the teaching of the course,he failed in the grade,<br />
he came out of the oxford university and whomever he meets he use to abuse the university,<br />
but dear janya,<br />
the demand of oxford has increased rather than decreasing,<br />
this happens,<br />
some bad students,<br />
some students who are unable to get the desired results gets upset,<br />
and at one point start blaming here and there,<br />
in spite of seeing the real truth<br />
blame lies in them self,<br />
if among thousand of universities he choose oxford and later on because of his own inability to go through it if he starts blaming the university ,that would make no sense at all.</p>
<p>i in my own family seen my relatives leaving RSSB faith,and now into idol worship,<br />
i m comfortable with it,<br />
its there choice and there wish,<br />
what i always hated is,and will always hate is <br />
incorrect information,false propaganda,<br />
you should not speak ill about anyone,<br />
but if at all you need to,speak,<br />
but with a truth in it.</p>
<p>All my older generation have been in the company of sawan singh baba hi,charan singh baba ji,i know all thick and thin of BEAS,<br />
Even charan singh baba ji son doesnt follow beas,<br />
one of his son who lost faith,now resides in sirsa,a city in harayana.<br />
so these things happen,<br />
we can never make out,<br />
what is happening,<br />
why is happening,<br />
there is no science,which can say,predict <br />
the reason of what is happening or what can happen,<br />
everything is in the hands of supreme power.<br />
And when baba ji said burn the books,<br />
he said because the person was asking so many questions referring many books,thus baba ji said burn all the books,<br />
in order to not confuse you more,<br />
sorry leaving half way<br />
will get back to you soon again. </p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31f47fa4970b2012-09-18T15:23:24Z2012-09-19T03:01:58ZJanya BarrishIndeed its true Mike, India was retaken. And it was awful that European women and children were massacred in this...<p>Indeed its true Mike, India was retaken. And it was awful that European women and children were massacred in this manner. No one should have to undergo atrocities of this sort.</p>
<p>I've read that the Queen and some others from the "Crown" owned large amount of stocks in the East India Trading Company. Naturally profits were of prime importance.</p>
<p>My mother grew up in India before Independence, and she was quite fond of the English. She never ceases to comment how clean India was when the British were around and the level of crime was nowhere like it is now in India. The upper classes of Indians enjoyed the company of the English. Many settled in India, even after Independence and their off-springs are the Anglo Indians. Many of them were my friends during my formative years. Personally, even though I benefited from the ends of the Raj in terms of education, life style, outlook, I always wondered who the dictatorial looking women in the park was. I am referring to a statue of Queen Victoria.</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744d1d6e7970d2012-09-18T14:15:50Z2012-09-19T03:01:58ZJanya BarrishOK then Your Friend, I will lay this to rest then. It all happened a long time ago. I understand...<p>OK then Your Friend, I will lay this to rest then. </p>
<p>It all happened a long time ago.</p>
<p>I understand now that clearly there are truly two sides to this story, one appears to be better documented than the other, but that doesn't mean that the other does not hold any moral ground.</p>
<p>But historically and for reference purposes books, pages are important, in my opinion.</p>
<p>I also think I have tried to put forth a balanced view of what might have happened there at Agra with the little information as is/was available to me.</p>
<p>“History is always written by the winners. When two cultures clash, the loser is obliterated, and the winner writes the history books. Books which glorify their own cause and disparage the conquered foe. As Napoleon once said, 'What is history, but a fable agreed upon?”<br />
― Dan Brown, The Da Vinci Code </p>
<p>Thanks Mike, Thanks Your Friend and everyone else who participated in this foray into the past.</p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744d098d8970d2012-09-18T09:52:28Z2012-09-19T03:01:58ZMike WilliamsHi Jenya, There are a few different places Jaimal's misdeeds are quoted in Secret History. The girls were too young...<p>Hi Jenya,<br />
There are a few different places Jaimal's<br />
misdeeds are quoted in Secret History.</p>
<p>The girls were too young by even the standards<br />
of that day.</p>
<p>The Great Rebellion of 1856 saw the British East India Company defeated. A year later, the British under their flag, retook India.</p>
<p>The British tracked down the people from<br />
the massacre and killed them usually by tieing<br />
them to the front of a cannon.</p>
<p>The bodies were chopped up and thrown down a well, of the British women and children in 1856. That sparked British retaliation.</p>
<p>We in America have had our problems with the<br />
British also.</p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744cf9f30970d2012-09-18T06:13:50Z2012-09-18T17:17:52ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourJanya,you said MIKE is a nice man, this is a myth, Jaimal was never thrown out of saligram who actually...<p>Janya,you said MIKE is a nice man,<br />
this is a myth,<br />
Jaimal was never thrown out of saligram who actually found having sex with prostitutes many times,<br />
it was saligram who use to molest,<br />
and not jaimal singh ji,<br />
and you cant believe the book radhasoami reality dear,i read it,<br />
its written by a writer with his own point of view,with the information he got from XYZ and it was his own understanding,<br />
i reject radhasoami reality book completely,<br />
i can also write a book saligrams reality,<br />
and mention salig ram was an asshole and he was into sex with young girls,<br />
he was lecherous person etc etc etc,<br />
writing we can write whatever we want,<br />
but it should have some truth essence in them,<br />
whatever mike says is fake,<br />
completely a big LIE,mike is a liberty of LIE for me,<br />
janya do not refer to book names pages and stanzas please dear,<br />
i can mention hell thousands of book pages and stuf which says quite something else that what mike shows and writes,<br />
Mike is lame ignorant person,who has hatred for beas lineage because of its popularity,<br />
and i cant help but can feel pity on mike ignorance and his false statements.<br />
This blog is read by many from rssb followers,<br />
and none have till date i met has believed this blog posts,<br />
no one believes,<br />
this kind of false propaganda has been there from years n years <br />
You might be shock in knowing even there was a rumor that salig ram tried to murder soami ji maharaj,<br />
now what will you say on this rumour statment created by someone who belongs to MIKE category,<br />
so never believe on 2nd hand knowledge and books written by writers who have no direct knowledge about the situation or incidents.<br />
so make it clear from your minds jaimal singh was the most adorable powerful param santh from soami ji maharaj lienage,<br />
and salig ram has no power to throw jaimal singh ji out of his satsang,no chance at all..<br />
This is all AGRA lienage trying to spread hatred.<br />
But poor people they already lost everything,and left with nothing.<br />
so only mike and others doing buggy jumping.<br />
if it makes you happy carry on..<br />
you will just waste your time.<br />
</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744cedcfd970d2012-09-18T03:42:32Z2012-09-19T03:01:58ZJanya BarrishI know people are going to be upset about these things but please remember that these squabbles within these groups...<p>I know people are going to be upset about these things but please remember that these squabbles within these groups were occurring over a hundred years ago. Every group has its not so pristine past, gosh who doesn't have skeletons in the closet?</p>
<p><br />
Just because Jaimal was thrown out of Rai Saligram's satsang, doesn't fully prove anything except that Rai Saligram had high standards. Remember that in India of those days, young teenage girls were considered to be of marriageable age. My own mother was married to my father at age 13 or 14! Laws and cultural values were different as well. Then again, who were these girls and did their parents not know about their whereabouts? It sounds like they were satsangis and were hanging around with Jaimal, another satsangi out of their own free will. </p>
<p>In any case here's the entry from Secret History of RSSB for reference if anyone is interested in checking its veracity:</p>
<p>Jaimal had a house built near Hazur Salig Ram's satsang in Peepal Mandi according to Professor Dr. Agam P. Mathur, see footnote 14, page 37 of Radhasoami Reality, Mark Juergensmeyer. Also, In Dr. Agam P. Mathur's Radhasoami Faith, page 128, Mathur states " After Soamji Maharaj's departure, he (Jaimal) owed allegiance to the second guru Hazur Maharaj ( Salig Ram)". In Correspondence with Certain Americans, Soami Bagh, Agra, 1960, page 189, S. D. Maheswari states Jaimal was removed from the satsang of Salig Ram for "keeping two or three young girls with him." </p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c1ed6d5970c2012-09-18T01:44:30Z2012-09-19T03:01:58ZJanya BarrishMike The many atrocities committed by the British East India Trading Company on the People of India is truly deplorable....<p>Mike</p>
<p>The many atrocities committed by the British East India Trading Company on the People of India is truly deplorable. There were many famines in India with more people dying than those in the holocaust. Truly the sepoy uprising was well justified.</p>
<p>But I don't see how just because the British soldiers were exploiting children that Jaimal Singh ji was doing so as well. I know the Sikhs have strict laws and repercussions for behaviors of this sort and if he was part of the Sikh regiment, I am sure there would have been observing Sikhs there who would have killed him themselves. </p>
<p>About Maheshwari quoting him being thrown out of Rai Saligram's satsang for living with young girls - why would Maheswari lie? What would he have to gain by doing so? </p>
<p>But I don't think even if this is true of Jaimal singh, that it is true of the Sawan or Charan Singh ji. </p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p><br />
</p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c1e6b6d970c2012-09-18T00:16:48Z2012-09-18T01:04:34ZMike WilliamsYeah, It's true. Jaimal was a paedophile. I base this on the fact British soldiers had Indian girls at age...<p>Yeah,<br />
It's true. Jaimal was a paedophile.</p>
<p>I base this on the fact British soldiers<br />
had Indian girls at age 12. They were<br />
called Bibis.</p>
<p>Jaimal was a pervert and Salig Ram<br />
threw him out of his satsang for living<br />
down the street with with extremely under age girls from his satsang.</p>
<p>Maheswari quotes available on my<br />
web site.</p>
<p>Sorry Jaimal was a pervert. But, at least it<br />
can be said he was not gay.</p>Gaz commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c1d8eda970c2012-09-17T21:07:47Z2012-09-18T01:04:34ZGazMike, Quote They know no one can help them. RS followers are good human beings, they're vegetarians, have good morals,...<p>Mike,</p>
<p>Quote<br />
They know no one can help them.</p>
<p>RS followers are good human beings, they're vegetarians, have good morals, God can help them, even if Gurinder was to turn out a fake (which i doubt) RS satsangis won't be punished at the time of death. <br />
At least they are not lying, cheating, stealing and indulging in other bad acts.<br />
</p>Gaz commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c1d88d4970c2012-09-17T21:02:36Z2012-09-18T01:04:34ZGazJanya, I'll give you the reason on why Jaimal Singh's pictures don't exist, at the time cameras were rare and...<p>Janya,</p>
<p>I'll give you the reason on why Jaimal Singh's pictures don't exist, at the time cameras were rare and Jaimal Singh was in the army. You might argue that Soami Ji had pictures, but Soami Ji's area was the rich part, Punjab, was the poor part of India hence no pictures/cameras. Mike can't argue with me on this, I am indian and I very well know the history of India.</p>
<p>Also you say<br />
When I hear that Gurinder ji says that there is NO GOD</p>
<p>Not true, at the end of each discourse in the UK, Gurinder will say God bless you all and makes references to God in the discourse. </p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c1d0cd8970c2012-09-17T19:12:44Z2012-09-18T01:04:34ZJanya BarrishYF, yes, biography is important to me. I like to know about the person behind the message. Thank you for...<p>YF, yes, biography is important to me. I like to know about the person behind the message. Thank you for checking things out. </p>
<p>Mike is a good person, and a great person for wanting answers and sticking his neck out by writing Beas History. He has real concern for people. I believe this about him. I know it. He has his opinions and facts. Beas can provide theirs. There's always two sides to a story, the truth they say, usually lies somewhere in the middle.</p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744cc51bb970d2012-09-17T18:40:51Z2012-09-18T01:04:34ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourJanya F Y I your dear lovely brother MIKE said it clearly and many times that jaimal singh baba ji...<p>Janya <br />
F Y I your dear lovely brother MIKE said it clearly and many times<br />
that jaimal singh baba ji was a molestor,<br />
if you havent read what he said read the blog again,<br />
or ask your buddy mike about it.<br />
And Jaimal singh ji history was not kept secret,he never wanted to be famous neither wanted to be known much about himself,<br />
now it was his wish,why he wished so,<br />
that is something unknown to many,<br />
though coming month i m going to meet few followers who will throw some light in jaimal singh jis life,<br />
let see what they have to say.</p>
<p>Biography will be found in many RSSB books,<br />
Agra people didnt liked it so you will not find anything good about him,<br />
because soami ji always loved and adored jaimal but not salig ram.<br />
Pictures are there many have seen,but because of baba jaimal singh jis wish,the pictures were not shown to public,<br />
Reason will let you know soon as you are so keen to know about.<br />
But Janya i would like to ask you onething<br />
Pictures,biography are more important that the spiritual facts and hymns?<br />
just let me know..<br />
</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744cbcac0970d2012-09-17T16:47:04Z2012-09-18T01:04:34ZJanya BarrishY F - I never said Jaimal Singh ji was a molester. I just don't know who he was. So...<p>Y F - I never said Jaimal Singh ji was a molester. I just don't know who he was. So little is known him and it appears that those who do know apparently don't want to reveal it. If such information exists it could easily be put into a book form with his pictures, biography, anecdotes etc. Why all this mystery about him? </p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744ca6d01970d2012-09-17T12:04:40Z2012-09-17T16:14:51ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourJanya and your borther mike, you both prove me jaimal singh was molestor and i will proof you with evidence...<p>Janya and your borther mike,<br />
you both prove me jaimal singh was molestor and i will proof you with evidence that salig ram was moslestor.<br />
First your prove with your claims,<br />
with first hand evidence,not heard stories or your own imaginative thoeries.<br />
You bring the facts<br />
i will bring the facts with LIVE proofs.</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744c6f3a7970d2012-09-16T23:11:02Z2012-09-17T00:58:25ZJanya BarrishAha Suktha Dev - I make my own decisions. If I intuit there is something wrong I like to get...<p>Aha Suktha Dev - I make my own decisions. If I intuit there is something wrong I like to get to the bottom of it. When I hear that Gurinder ji says that there is NO GOD (to me that means the entire spiritual and the GODHEAD)and yet does not actively deny that he himself is GOD, that makes me want to tell everyone what a rotten system RSSB is. </p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744c6dcee970d2012-09-16T22:47:28Z2012-09-17T00:58:25ZJanya BarrishMy main contentions are: No Guru is GOD. Can ever be GOD, the Absolute. Never. If Rai Saligram was a...<p>My main contentions are:</p>
<p>No Guru is GOD. Can ever be GOD, the Absolute. Never. </p>
<p>If Rai Saligram was a molester, please show me the evidence. I'm not just going to take your word for it. And even if he was, he is still an indisputable part of Beas heritage. This cannot be denied, no matter how much it can be lamented regardless of the allegations against him bearing out or not. And do compare your attitudes to those of the evangelical Christians'who willingly and lovingly forgave their preachers once they had confessed.</p>
<p>Santh Kabir Das's cosmology predates even Shiv Dayal Soami ji so why does RSSB give so little attention to Kabir Das? (Ya, I know there is that half witted book RSSB book on Kabir),especially since Sawan Singh Ji clearly stated that Santh Math cannot be understood without understanding Kabir Das Saheb. Have any of you read any of his works for yourself in their entirety?</p>
<p>Show us the real pictures of Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj. Why is there so little information about him?</p>
<p>These are all real legitimate questions. Why is answering them so difficult for you? </p>
<p>Your relationship with your Guru should be so strong that you should be able to ask him such questions and expect clear and truthful answers. </p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p><br />
</p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744c5901b970d2012-09-16T17:19:59Z2012-09-16T18:22:05ZMike WilliamsTo Janya, This is your first experience with "moles". There are two of them. One from Beas (with cancer lower...<p>To Janya,<br />
This is your first experience with<br />
"moles". There are two of them. One from Beas (with cancer lower body, needs lymp nodes removed) and one from Kirpal.</p>
<p>Notice how it seems you are talking to multiple people when you talk to them.<br />
To the "many" within each one of them.</p>
<p>These poor souls are possessed by demons<br />
and we at COTC try to help them whenever<br />
possible.</p>
<p>These poor souls are worse off than lepers.</p>
<p>They are doomed and they know there is no escape from their dilemna.</p>
<p>They send each other emails to post and<br />
sometimes the Beas computer room is involved.</p>
<p>They know no one can help them.</p>Aha suktha dev commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31e7966e970b2012-09-16T16:08:07Z2012-09-16T18:22:05ZAha suktha devJanya Barrish take it up with the head of the movement or the patron of RSSB Gurinder Singh himself as...<p>Janya Barrish</p>
<p>take it up with the head of the movement or the patron of RSSB Gurinder Singh himself as to how the movement needs to 'fess up' as you put it.</p>
<p>or are you just as unscrupulous and underhand and devious and cowardly as the very writers and critics of RSSB who gather en here on websites such as these such as the collection of self styled know-it-all's who purport to be in 'search of honest spiritual independence'?</p>Aha suktha dev commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744c53bc7970d2012-09-16T16:02:07Z2012-09-16T18:22:05ZAha suktha devwhoever this 'WAKING NOW' character might be he is NOT Krishin Babani whom I met personally in same entourage and...<p>whoever this 'WAKING NOW' character might be he is NOT Krishin Babani</p>
<p>whom I met personally in same entourage and traveling group together with Maharaj Charan Singh on more than one occasion</p>
<p>I have reason to believe the poster going by name 'Your Friend' to be of morally sound and honorable character..</p>
<p>pity the other so called 'seekers' after 'truth' or open and honest sincere seekers for 'spiritual independence' are nowhere nearly as open and honest as they pretend to be.</p>Aha suktha dev commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c15bf96970c2012-09-16T15:46:49Z2012-09-16T18:22:05ZAha suktha devMike Williams is an outright fake so called authority on RS history and 'politics' or 'theology' who has NEVER had...<p>Mike Williams is an outright fake so called authority on RS history and 'politics' or 'theology' who has NEVER had ANY direct personal relationship with ANY living RS teacher.</p>
<p>Same for this fool who goes by name of tAo here who decries any religious connotation or following of 'belief' yet is a SWORN disciple and follower of Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada of the RELIGIOUSLY indoctrinated sect that goes by name of Krsna Consciousness movement .. yet same as some RS initiates go through their inherent intellectualized fears, doubts and misgivings, so do those of 'other' so called 'cults' and 'religions'</p>
<p><a href="http://harekrishnacultexposed.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://harekrishnacultexposed.blogspot.com/</a></p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c1483ff970c2012-09-16T10:25:27Z2012-09-17T12:04:45ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourI m convinced Mike is funded by Agra lineage, so now no need to have any further discussion with MIKE,...<p>I m convinced Mike is funded by Agra lineage,<br />
so now no need to have any further discussion with MIKE,<br />
he make me remember the crook and molestor SALIGRAM's disciple<br />
whatever he claims are rubbish,incorrect and irrelevant.<br />
Mike you are just a big loser.<br />
Go and hide behind Agra lineage,Your family earns from them and live life because of them.<br />
You are a crooked pimp of AGRA lineage.<br />
And your brother is Janya Barrish.<br />
Both are equal idiots with false statements and bogus propaganda.<br />
I discontinue any discussion with you both pimps.<br />
Have a life both of you.<br />
I told you many times it will get you no where,<br />
you both are stupid guys with little head and no mind,</p>
<p><br />
</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31e50859970b2012-09-16T05:13:56Z2012-09-16T05:13:56ZJanya BarrishCorrection: Kal apparently is not Brahm, but the Father of Brahm according to Kabir Das (Anurag Sagar) but Kal is...<p>Correction: Kal apparently is not Brahm, but the Father of Brahm according to Kabir Das (Anurag Sagar) but Kal is also an emanation of Sat Purush himself, he fell from grace. Ok? Just for the record! Its important to get the story (myth?) straight. (symbolism?, so what, symbolism are generally place holders for something more abstract) Science or a combination may be able to some day explain it better. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Carl Sagan</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744c24a22970d2012-09-16T03:23:40Z2012-09-16T03:23:40ZJanya BarrishIsn't this something Mike! Here these initiators, mind you not Gurus, can we safely call them that? are openly saying...<p>Isn't this something Mike! Here these initiators, mind you not Gurus, can we safely call them that? are openly saying this and yet people want to deify them, I mean what's a man to do? But hey, I just got a copy of the original Santh Math - The Anuraag Sagar of Santh Kabir Das, I think this is authentic since it appears to be put out by the Kabir Panthees. This is the original cosmogology/cosmogony. Kabir Das ji gave a lot of hints on the real Naam, not the five of Kal, but I don't know, I mean Kal is Brahm, and Brahm is by some Western O groups said to be ____, who doesn't seem to be all that "bad," more like a process of cosmic evolutionary cycle. Well, I can't tell it all here, you know what I mean. Its a matter of evolution and what humans are becoming and whose going to make or not make the grade during this cycle. Oh well. The way I look at all this is that we work on being the best human we can be; forces beyond our control will take us where they will. </p>
<p></p>
<p><a href="http://ia700604.us.archive.org/22/items/AnuragSagarOfKabir/Anurag-Sagar-Complete.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://ia700604.us.archive.org/22/items/AnuragSagarOfKabir/Anurag-Sagar-Complete.pdf</a><br />
</p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c12a717970c2012-09-16T02:25:47Z2012-09-16T02:25:47ZMike WilliamsHi Janya, It is interesting you brought up Charan said, "I wish to tell the sangat quite frankly that I...<p>Hi Janya,</p>
<p>It is interesting you brought up Charan said,<br />
"I wish to tell the sangat quite frankly that I do not make any claims whatsoever to spiritual attainments."</p>
<p>Because at about the same time, another major <br />
group Dayal Bagh had a new Guru,<br />
Dr. Lal who plainly stated he had no power<br />
and would only act as administrator.</p>
<p>Both Lal and Charan ended up being worshiped<br />
as Gurus even though they clearly stated<br />
they had no power. Sawan had also admitted<br />
having no power when he met Chachaji. He<br />
told Chachaji he was inept and powerless.</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31e38545970b2012-09-15T22:38:12Z2012-09-15T22:38:12ZJanya BarrishHi Gaz, Glad you are interested in the Ved concepts. Higher Manas is very relevant to our time. So, what...<p>Hi Gaz,</p>
<p>Glad you are interested in the Ved concepts. Higher Manas is very relevant to our time.</p>
<p>So, what is the true story from your side regarding Dr. Johnson's death? I have heard a version, probably from Beas stating that he fell and injured his head on a boulder during a heated argument about "health" with a fellow --." I mean really, how heated do people get about health issues? </p>
<p>I have known about Faqir Chand for nearly 9 or so years now, so I am quite certain that there are indeed many Westerners who now know about him as well. </p>
<p>You seem to have answered your own question: Why is Radhasoami Beas expanding so quickly ; because from what you say Gurinder is an attractive Guru - an attractive Guru who is modern, successful, wealthy and carrying a (percieved) antidote to practically everyone's fear of death, as well as their desire to be know about spiritual matters.</p>
<p>I might be an exsatsangi (to me this means a person who does not attend satsang)but I am an initate by the agreement of Charan Singh ji. That this initiation may not carry with it the power and charge of lineage transmission has in-fact turned out to be a blessing to me because I regret getting railroaded into this initiation without knowing the true history of this yoga system as well as being completely ignorant about the real implications of receiving such an initiation and what the actual mechanics of the yoga are. Wish Mike's Secret History of Beas had been around then!</p>
<p>And when did looks have anything to do with what a true Guru has to impart? Behind the ordinary or the not-beautiful, the ugly can stand great wisdom and knowledge and behind beauty can stand evil. Oh, boy, is it not known that psychopaths can come across as exceedingly charming, attractive, friendly, caring etc. while all the time they are being manipulative, using people and really have their own interests in mind? I am not implying that Gurinder is this. In the parlance of Sant Math, Gaz, your comment about Mr. Dr. Agam, is that of a "manmukh." </p>
<p>In a way, the Luciferic forces enjoy making the ordinary, the true, the real appear to be boring, and beauty is one of the prime tools used by the negative force (using Santh Math lingo) to entrap. This is a general comment about how even the true, the good and the beautiful can be misinterpreted and misused as well.</p>
<p>If Gurinder is a good human being, all the more power to him. But he is certainly not GOD. As Dionysius the Areopagite says in The Treatise on "Divine Names":</p>
<p>SECTION VI.</p>
<p> The theologians, having knowledge of this, celebrate It, both without<br />
Name and from every Name. Without name, as when they say that the<br />
Godhead Itself, in one of those mystical apparitions of the symbolical<br />
Divine manifestation, rebuked him who said, "What is thy name?" and as<br />
leading him away from all knowledge of the Divine Name, said this, "and<br />
why dost thou ask my Name? "and this (Name) "is wonderful," And is not<br />
this in reality the wonderful Name, that which is above every Name--the<br />
Nameless--that fixed above every name which is named, whether in this<br />
age or in that which is to come? Also, as "many named," as when they<br />
again introduce It as saying, "I am He, Who is--the Life--the<br />
Light--the God--the Truth." And when the wise of God themselves<br />
celebrate Him, as Author of all things, under many Names, from all<br />
created things--as Good--as Beautiful--as Wise--as Beloved--as God of<br />
gods--as Lord of lords--as Holy of Holies--as Eternal--as Being--as<br />
Author of Ages--as Provider of Life--as Wisdom--as Mind--as Word--as<br />
Knowing--as preeminently possessing all the treasures of all<br />
knowledge--as Power--as Powerful--as King of kings--as Ancient of<br />
days--as never growing old--and Unchangeable--as Preservation--as<br />
Righteousness--as Sanctification -- as Redemption--as surpassing all<br />
things in greatness--and as in a gentle breeze.--Yea, they also say<br />
that He is in minds, and in souls, and in bodies, and in heaven and in<br />
earth, and at once, the same in the same--in the world--around the<br />
world--above the world--supercelestial, superessential, sun,<br />
star--fire--water--spirit--dew--cloud--self-hewn stone and rock--all<br />
things existing--and not one of things existing. </p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p><br />
</p>Blogger Brian commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c10f585970c2012-09-15T19:03:30Z2012-09-15T19:03:30ZBlogger BrianGaz, regarding your comment that "everyone stares" at Gurinder Singh at airports, this isn't true. See my blog post, "Did...<p>Gaz, regarding your comment that "everyone stares" at Gurinder Singh at airports, this isn't true. See my blog post, "Did I see God in first class?"<br />
<a href="http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/06/did_i_see_god_i.html" rel="nofollow">http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/06/did_i_see_god_i.html</a></p>
<p>There was zero extra attention being paid to Gurinder Singh from the non-satsangi people in the plane. I can testify to that, being one row behind him in coach class, with no barrier (curtain) between me and first class.</p>
<p>It's a lot like the Beatles, or any other famous celebrity. If you see them outside of the setting of adoring fans, they look normal. Celebrity makes them famous, famousness feeding on famousness. Same with gurus. They don't stand out unless other people point and scream "Look! It's God!"</p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31e239d2970b2012-09-15T17:01:27Z2012-09-15T18:54:19ZMike WilliamsHi Janya, Ironically at Dayal Bagh group Dr. Lal admitted he was not a Guru and would only take over...<p>Hi Janya,<br />
Ironically at Dayal Bagh group<br />
Dr. Lal admitted he was not a Guru<br />
and would only take over administration.</p>
<p>The only real lineage was Agra group.<br />
All the others were unathorized, including<br />
Beas and branches.</p>
<p>Fake groups grow like weeds.</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c0d51a9970c2012-09-15T03:03:52Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZJanya BarrishMike- it was good to read this in the Secret History of Beas: Charan Singh stated upon his new guruship,...<p>Mike- it was good to read this in the Secret History of Beas:</p>
<p>Charan Singh stated upon his new guruship, "My love for (Sawan), and the commands of (Jagat Singh ) ... compel me to carry out the wishes of Sardar Bahadur Ji to serve the sangat and the Dera. I wish to tell the sangat quite frankly that I do not make any claims whatsoever to spiritual attainments. I do not find in myself even those excellences that a good satsangi should possess. These orders were communicated to me . . and I have no choice but to serve the Dera and the sangat according to his orders." Heaven on Earth, Daryai Lal Kapur,1986, Beas.</p>
<p>Guess, this explains his non guru interests. I do admire his honesty.</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31dec0b6970b2012-09-15T01:58:50Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZJanya BarrishLineage is important because of the concept of Guru Parampara. It's mystical power and knowledge passed on from one authorized...<p>Lineage is important because of the concept of Guru Parampara. It's mystical power and knowledge passed on from one authorized teacher to another authorized teacher in a strict chain of succession, to the benefit of the disciple. </p>Gaz commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31dd9216970b2012-09-14T20:54:49Z2012-09-14T20:54:49ZGazJanya, I'll give the Ved concepts some regard and the others, I've read everything about Faqir Chand, I've read Mike...<p>Janya,</p>
<p>I'll give the Ved concepts some regard and the others, I've read everything about Faqir Chand, I've read Mike Williams Secrets history which is crass. There are so many points that are wrong, even a relatively new RS will know most 'secrets' is crass. I'm sorry but ex satsangis will be receptive to ANYTHING negative about RS. That is the sad reality. <br />
I mean if you seriously believe Mike's perspective on the way Dr Johnson died, then you'll believe anything against RS.<br />
Just like how David put it <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radhasoamistudies/message/198339" rel="nofollow">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radhasoamistudies/message/198339</a></p>
<p>There are many faults, I'm not the type of guy that will run through everyone as I simply don't have the time.</p>
<p>Fault<br />
Faqir Chand was endorsed by Sawan Singh as a legitimate Radhasoami master. Kirpal Singh witnessed Sawan bowing at the feet of Faqir's guru Shiv Brat Lal and the later returning the gesture. Not many westerners have heard of Chand.</p>
<p>First of all anything that Kirpal Singh witnesses or says is irrelevant, you know it Mike, Kirpal is not honest, you have stated that many times. </p>
<p>If RS is such a fraud, why is expanding at such a vast rate? There are more and more initiates. <br />
Also Gurinder Singh has a receptive look, lots of celebrities have commented on how attractive the master is. These celebrities are non RS. Even at airports where there are non satsangis, everyone stares at Gurinder Singh and is amazed.<br />
Such attributes are rare in a master, who is the master now in Rai Saligram's lineage? Dr Agam Prasas, this guy just looks ordinary. </p>George commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c0bbd54970c2012-09-14T20:26:53Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZGeorgehttp://www.cab.comIf there is any truth to any of this mystical stuff it sure as he'll has nothing to do with...<p>If there is any truth to any of this mystical stuff it sure as he'll has nothing to do with which master or lineage is the true one and whether it's tge sound current or audible life stream.</p>
<p>As I undertstand it, the whole point to mysticism and indeed sant mat, is that it is the teaching of a spiritual experience by various saints.</p>
<p>The whole point therefor is supposedly to realise ones true infinite universal nature by connecting or communing with a supposed cosmic consciousness.</p>
<p>I dont know if any of this is true, but what quite clearly is of absolutely no use, and is a complete red-herring waste of time is trying to decipher some lineage.</p>
<p>This one says guru swami j says this, that one says Baba Q says that, this one says VVS Laxman does that - it's all complete ungortoborated conjecture with one so-called spiritual adept trying to outdo the next with his supposed 'spiritual' knowledge, which cannot be bergies at all - is there any wonder there are so many masters and gurus floating around in radiant form or otherwise. Even if there is a proper spiritual teacher on this here earth - just looking at the rubbish ppl talk makes one even more skeptical, not less.</p>
<p><br />
What I font get is why ppl have devoted great swathes of their lives to following a system and then equally great swathes of their time to tearing it down. If you want to follow or believe in it (or not), do so (or don't), but what's obsession with it? </p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744bafbb1970d2012-09-14T19:54:24Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZMike Williams"Baba Sawan Singh was encouraged by Seth Pratap Singh to start initiating and to take the role as a Guru"...<p>"Baba Sawan Singh was encouraged by Seth Pratap Singh to start initiating and to take the role as a Guru"<br />
quote Gaz</p>
<p>Not true. No one ever gave authority to either Jaimal, or Sawan to act as Gurus.</p>
<p>Everything you just wrote is incorrect<br />
historically.</p>
<p>And, the people here already know why.</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744baef47970d2012-09-14T19:43:07Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZJanya BarrishDear Gaz, The information I quoted is also referenced in: Sar Bachan, An abstract of the Teachings of Swamiji Maharaj,...<p>Dear Gaz,</p>
<p>The information I quoted is also referenced in:</p>
<p>Sar Bachan, An abstract of the Teachings of Swamiji Maharaj, the founder of the Radha Swami system of Philosophy and Spiritual Science: THE YOGA OF THE SOUND CURRENT<br />
Radha Soami Satsang Beas, Dera Baba Jaima lSing, BEAS (India), published by The Radha Soami Satsang Beas (Punjab) Printed at Rekha Printers. Ltd. New Delhi 110015</p>
<p>'The text of this book was translated from the original Hindi by Sardar Sewa Singh, B.A. Judge in the Civil Courts of the Punjab (India). Dr. Julian P. Johnson assisted him in this task. The first edition was published by the Beas Satsang under the authority of Huzur Maharaj Sardar Sawan Singh Sahib.'</p>
<p>Page 20 of this book:</p>
<p>Last Commandments of Swamiji Maharaj</p>
<p>Commandment 14<br />
Turning to Lala Partap Singh, He said: "My Mat (ideal or teachings) were of Satnam and Anami, and Radha Swami Mat has been started by Saligram. Let this also go on. Satsang should continue, and Satsang will flourish more than before."</p>
<p>No, I was not there when this occurred. But in order to set the record straight and restore to Rai Saligram, what is rightfully his, this must be told and retold not just by Mike Williams but also by you and me and anyone else who cares about the truth.</p>
<p>I have no problem with any one initiating anyone, as long as they are truthful and up front about everything which Beas has not been. </p>
<p>Santh Math, as practiced in Beas cannot be likened to a University course far from it. </p>
<p>As far as assuming that Santh Math did not work for me you are mistaken. I have a very different but intimate relationship to it, even if not to every detail of the teachings themselves.</p>
<p>In fact, Beas needs to 'fess up' and start anew, both in the history and in giving initiates a clean and clear understanding of what this yoga is about and how it is no different than other yoga's of the same ilk. Don't you think it would be epitome of hypocrisy and outright lying if a restaurant served Tandoori Chicken but denied the use of "chicken"; chicken that is used by other restaurants to make the same recipe?</p>
<p>My suggestion to you is to broaden your outlook, read other materials as well not just RSSB, Santh Math. Read and understand Ved concepts about Manas, Buddhi, Chita, Antakharan - and others as well. You might wish to read the works of Dionysius the Arepogite. You might want to read books on evolution, especially the one recommended by Brian in one of his posts. It was written by RSSB initiates, I believe. Lastly do read Mike Williams Secret History of Beas and follow up on its links. If you do all this with an unbiased mind and as a seeker of truth, I am sure you will benefit.</p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744bae4ca970d2012-09-14T19:33:20Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourMike williams doesnt understand that he has no true evidence neither he knew any truth about radhasoami history, he is...<p>Mike williams doesnt understand that he has no true evidence neither he knew any truth about radhasoami history,<br />
he is just struggling with poor infromation and imagination to gain cheap publicity and popularity,<br />
Mike god gave you voice speak,<br />
but god gave you Head,Use it wisely,<br />
come out with true facts,<br />
not lazy sarcastic stories,<br />
At death bed what exactly soami jis said,very few people knows,<br />
but still no one can exactly spell what was actually said,<br />
And yes at the death bed because his relative were with him he was talking to them about whatever path name you want to choose,<br />
but he already discussed it with jaimal singh baba ji,and ordered him to preach it from BEAS,<br />
Actually SOAMI ji wanted that baba jaimal singh ji alone gets the authority to preach,<br />
and even he wanted jaimal singh to stay in AGRA,<br />
but he knew the dark grey shades of salig ram,and his lineage,and today we witnessed SOAMI jis far sighted vision,<br />
Agra gaadi split into multiple groups and they are always disputes and disagreements between agra group themself not to forget they even start physical fights among themself,IS this the sign of PARAM santh,<br />
SOAMI bagh and Dhayal bagh followers are enemy to eachother,<br />
they both always keep disputing with one another,<br />
Is this spirituality,<br />
EVER we heard such things happening else where,</p>
<p>Mike wake up from the dream,and see the reality,<br />
if there would be a single truth in your secret fake history of beas,<br />
there would be decline in RSSB followers,but not threshold increase in the followers,</p>
<p>Truth prevails and truth leads,<br />
however,it sees hard times,but it always come out and shine,</p>
<p>I completely agree with what GAZ said,<br />
RAMPAL is a dacoit a thief,i myself called once to their ashram and told them to bring rampal on phone i have some doubts,<br />
they cut off my phone call and then they never received my call after few days number got disconnected completely.</p>
<p>RAMPAL like thugs play hide and seek,</p>
<p>And you say SALIG RAM to be a param santh,<br />
my dear for your kind information,<br />
according to the order of SOAMI ji,<br />
the 5 names(though it might sound compeletly ordinary to many)where only given secretly by a SATGURU and cannot be said in public,<br />
But one of the book released by AGRA lineage has the 5 names mentioned clearly together in a page.<br />
Now arent they going aganist the will and wish of SOAMI JI the PARAM SANT,by disobeying his orders.</p>
<p>Thats why SOAMI JI knew,<br />
that the true spirituality will be preached by radha soami beas,but not agra.</p>
<p>AGRA master can never dare to come and do satsang in Punjab,<br />
but beas master have come down to agra after a gap of 40 years and done satsang in AGRA,<br />
and everyone in AGRA got stunned to see LAKHS of sangat who came for satsang.</p>
<p>I M not talking about crowd,<br />
i m talking about faith,belief,trust they have in beas Masters.</p>
<p>so MIKE and Barrish <br />
try always to speak truth,you can only manipulate with words and play for sometime,<br />
but not all the time.</p>David R commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c0b5d1a970c2012-09-14T18:58:13Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZDavid ROf course, it doesn't matter whether you think you have the truth and nothing but the truth, but the reality...<p>Of course, it doesn't matter whether you think you have the truth and nothing but the truth, but the reality is that other people have their truths and nothing but their truths, and if you disagree, that is war and murder.</p>
<p>So, i beg to differ with that cult.</p>Gaz commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31dc96cc970b2012-09-14T16:58:17Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZGazJanya, Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you use Sant Rampal as a source to further diminish RS? Sant...<p>Janya,</p>
<p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you use Sant Rampal as a source to further diminish RS?<br />
Sant Rampal has been to jail and has also been caught lying extensive times. Not a very credible source.</p>
<p>Also were you there when Soami Ji was dying? Did you hear him say those words? Did you know that Baba Sawan Singh was encouraged by Seth Pratap Singh to start initiating and to take the role as a Guru? <br />
So if those were Soami Ji's last words to Pratap, why would Seth Pratap Singh encourage Sawan Singh to give Nam. Surely, Seth Pratap would divert all the sangat to Rai Saligram.</p>
<p>I am not a 100% RS, I still have my doubts, I attended Gurinders satsang last week, I had a close view and I didn't see any changes in the RS teachings or any faults. <br />
I am a truth seeker.</p>
<p>Also I think it's a bit narrow minded to think that 'what didn't work for me won't work for anyone else'. That is yours and nearly everyone else's attitude. <br />
The path of Sant Mat is like a University course, at the end of the spiritual course one will be spiritually enlightened. Baba Ji even stated in last weeks Satsang that Nam isn't a magic wand. You have to apply yourself and adhere to everything to reach your goal.</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31dc4847970b2012-09-14T15:55:16Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZJanya BarrishMike - is there an alternative for Gaz? In terms of healing from the shock? If Gurinderji, the present Guru...<p>Mike - is there an alternative for Gaz? In terms of healing from the shock? If Gurinderji, the present Guru is exposing the charade, and Gaz is still vested in Beas, would it not be a good thing for him to pay heed to the new beas direction, merely as a step by step/transitional move out and on?</p>Gaz commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c0a6e85970c2012-09-14T15:30:31Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZGazBut what's cancer got to do with any of this?<p>But what's cancer got to do with any of this?</p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744b99afe970d2012-09-14T14:42:10Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZMike WilliamsHi Gaz, Now I know who you are. By the way, how many of 'them' are in you ? David...<p>Hi Gaz,<br />
Now I know who you are. By the way, how<br />
many of 'them' are in you ?</p>
<p>David Lane has never found one thing wrong<br />
with my findings and neither has anyone else. </p>
<p>That's because I use hard historical<br />
evidence most of the time to back the facts.<br />
Or, my direct experience.</p>
<p>The old version of Beas history is gone<br />
forever. Even Gurinder admits my facts<br />
are correct, so there is no debate.</p>
<p>Beas history is Gone with the Wind. Up<br />
in smoke. It's been gone for many years now.</p>
<p>It was a scham from the beginning by fake gurus wanting wealth.</p>
<p>They need to destroy their old books. Their <br />
old books are making them look silly in the modern world.</p>
<p>Gaz, its too late, do you understand ?</p>
<p>Everybody knows now. No matter how much<br />
propaganda and no matter how many moles,<br />
its too late. You can't put the Genie<br />
back in the bottle.</p>
<p>Pandora's Box was opened. It can never be closed again.</p>
<p>You are beating a long dead horse.</p>Gaz commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744b7c47d970d2012-09-14T07:57:08Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZGazI hope everyone including Satsangis and non satsangis can see who Mike really is here. He is asking me if...<p>I hope everyone including Satsangis and non satsangis can see who Mike really is here.<br />
He is asking me if I have cancer, its out of context. <br />
If he has some kind of malicious feeling against me, then Mike your time is coming. You will burn in hell along with your false Beas secrets and other extensive lies.</p>
<p>You don't ever do that to anyone, even if you hate them, everyone is human in this world and has a right to enjoy life.</p>Gaz commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744b7b6ab970d2012-09-14T07:44:49Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZGazWhy are you asking if I have cancer? Cancer is something very serious and life threatening and to go to...<p>Why are you asking if I have cancer?<br />
Cancer is something very serious and life threatening and to go to that extent shows me that something isn't right in your head. Do you know how much pain and suffering the victim and the families endure? </p>
<p>I clearly just sent a Yahoo link that had David Lane aka neural surfer faulting your findings, can't you read?</p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31d93075970b2012-09-14T04:40:32Z2012-09-15T05:11:02ZMike WilliamsBrian, cancel last post and use this instead. Gaz, do you have cancer ?<p>Brian, cancel last post and use this instead.</p>
<p>Gaz, do you have cancer ?</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31d827ac970b2012-09-14T00:20:37Z2012-09-14T04:11:24ZJanya BarrishYes, I know. Also the generally on some pages the links are set up to promote certain beliefs; the belief...<p>Yes, I know. Also the generally on some pages the links are set up to promote certain beliefs; the belief propagation algorithm.</p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c06629f970c2012-09-13T23:50:44Z2012-09-14T04:11:24ZMike WilliamsHi Janya, Your right about Wikipedia. The religious groups write their own versions so it is all propoganda. Also, the...<p><br />
Hi Janya,</p>
<p>Your right about Wikipedia. The religious groups <br />
write their own versions so it<br />
is all propoganda.</p>
<p>Also, the CIA and banks control Wikipedia<br />
in regards to financial information. Its<br />
quite comical at times.</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31d7dea4970b2012-09-13T22:52:46Z2012-09-14T04:11:24ZJanya BarrishHi Mike :) . . . in that case Wikipedia needs to be corrected. I sometimes go and discuss stuff...<p>Hi Mike :)</p>
<p><br />
. . . in that case Wikipedia needs to be corrected. I sometimes go and discuss stuff on their talk pages. Certainly Wikipedia can be biased or outright wrong, unless someone adds or makes corrections.</p>
<p>. .. in India, in the old days, a sadhu coming to one's door was a blessing. One such old and poor sadhu made a prediction to my Mom, that came completely true.</p>
<p>I hope Gharib Das is in a good place, what its only been around a 100 years or so! And here we are in 2012 relating and connecting with these long dead people!</p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c05f5be970c2012-09-13T21:43:19Z2012-09-13T22:37:08ZMike Williams"And Saligram is not the one who started RADHASOAMI path neither the name choosen by him," What in the world...<p>"And Saligram is not the one who started RADHASOAMI path neither the name choosen by him,"</p>
<p>What in the world are you smoking ???</p>
<p>Kirpal was trashed by David Lane and Mike Williams. David Lane wrote Radhasoami<br />
Tradition. Mike Williams added some things<br />
Lane was not aware of and finshed the job<br />
on Kirpal with RS Beas Secret History.</p>
<p>Kirpal went down as a stone cold liar<br />
as the quotes in Secret History prove.</p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31d79b33970b2012-09-13T21:34:31Z2012-09-13T22:37:08ZMike WilliamsDavid Lane has never mentioned one thing wrong with my history. That's because there isn't anything wrong. To Janya, Wikapedia...<p>David Lane has never mentioned one thing wrong with my history.</p>
<p>That's because there isn't anything<br />
wrong.</p>
<p>To Janya,<br />
Wikapedia is comical. Radhaji and Salig Ram<br />
were left successors. Sunmukh Das was <br />
left in charge of sadhus. Jaimal's<br />
name was never mentioned and Chachaji<br />
was not mentioned in Swami ji's will<br />
except as owner of Soami Bagh.</p>
<p>Chachaji was the one who wrote down<br />
Swami Ji's will as he spoke it to<br />
the crowds.</p>
<p>Gharib Das was not mentioned, he was<br />
a blind helpless sadhu with very few followers.</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31d78069970b2012-09-13T21:05:43Z2012-09-13T22:37:08ZJanya BarrishGaz - As long as you are not Your Friend, then my post is not directed at you. I am...<p>Gaz - As long as you are not Your Friend, then my post is not directed at you. I am sorry. </p>Gaz commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744b52a58970d2012-09-13T20:50:33Z2012-09-13T22:37:08ZGazNo problem Brian, thanks for publishing my comment.<p>No problem Brian, thanks for publishing my comment.</p>Gaz commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c05af0c970c2012-09-13T20:26:13Z2012-09-13T22:37:08ZGazBrian, why hasn't my comment directed to Mike been published yet? [Note: Gaz, because it went into the TypePad spam...<p>Brian, why hasn't my comment directed to Mike been published yet?</p>
<p>[Note: Gaz, because it went into the TypePad spam filter for some reason. I just found and published it. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I check the spam filter regularly, but not daily. -- Blogger Brian]</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c05aede970c2012-09-13T20:25:57Z2012-09-13T22:37:08ZJanya BarrishYa Peacemaker? Tell me more about ROME. Giggle, Giggle. Back to U G's Calamity.<p>Ya Peacemaker? Tell me more about ROME. Giggle, Giggle. Back to U G's Calamity.</p>Gaz commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744b51273970d2012-09-13T20:25:07Z2012-09-13T22:37:08ZGazSorry, Janya, what has that got to do with me?<p>Sorry, Janya, what has that got to do with me?</p>Peaceseeker commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c058eb5970c2012-09-13T19:50:54Z2012-09-13T22:37:08ZPeaceseekerJanya, there is ONLY Rome. Your earnestly peacemaker<p>Janya, there is ONLY Rome. <br />
Your earnestly peacemaker</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744b4ced6970d2012-09-13T19:13:06Z2012-09-13T22:37:08ZJanya BarrishYour Friend, Gaz Here are some more reasons why Jaimal is not the creator of Radha Soami panth, the entire...<p>Your Friend, Gaz</p>
<p>Here are some more reasons why Jaimal is not the creator of Radha Soami panth, the entire system as well as the title itself. I am certain many other reasons and evidence that support this view; that Jaimal Singh Baba was NOT the creator of the Radhasoami can be located.</p>
<p>(1) The headquarters of the Radhasoami Faith is located at Soami Bagh in Agra. If he had created it, the headquarters would be in Beas, don't you agree?</p>
<p>(2) Soon after Shiv Dayal ji's death in 1878, his/the primary satsang splintered into many groups centered around different personalities, such as his wife Narayani Devi (called Radhaji), Rai Saligram (called Huzur Maharaj), Sanmukh Das, Gharib Das, Partap Singh (Shiv Dayal's younger brother) and Baba Jaimal Singh. This splintering off helped in spreading the teaching of Radha Soami although with varied interpretations.</p>
<p>Ref: Wikipedia</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31d6da43970b2012-09-13T18:09:43Z2012-09-13T22:37:08ZJanya BarrishYour friend, Would you also be reference the materials that make you believe that Rai Saligram was not a Param...<p>Your friend,</p>
<p>Would you also be reference the materials that make you believe that Rai Saligram was not a Param Santh, was a molester, a crook, a healer and everything else you said about him that makes him look bad? What evidence do YOU have in making these claims?</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3c04a1c1970c2012-09-13T15:49:57Z2012-09-13T22:37:08ZJanya BarrishYour Friend, Why can't you understand what Shiv Dayal Soami was saying on his deathbed? Can you not read? Sir...<p>Your Friend,</p>
<p>Why can't you understand what Shiv Dayal Soami was saying on his deathbed? Can you not read? </p>
<p>Sir Shiv Dayal's last dying words while he looked at Seth Pratap Singh were:</p>
<p>Maera mat tho Satnam aur Anaami ka Tha, aur Radha Soami Math, Salig Raam ka chalaya hua hai. Eees ko bhi chalnae daena.</p>
<p>Loose translation<br />
My path was that of Satnam and Anaami and Radha Soami Math,is that of Salig Ram, it is being promoted by, run by, operated by Salig Ram. Let this continue as well.</p>
<p>And Your Friend, when you claim that Salig Ram was not a Param Santh, was a molester, a crook and that Shiv Dayal Soami knew about this, yet still allowed Salig Ram to continue with Radha Soami, what does this say about the founder, Shiv Dayal ji himself? <br />
</p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744b38d00970d2012-09-13T13:46:13Z2012-09-13T15:44:55ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourMike you are unable to prove any of your points and allegations buddy. A brotherly advice to you,do not do...<p>Mike you are unable to prove any of your points and allegations buddy.<br />
A brotherly advice to you,do not do all this,<br />
this will get you no where,i repeated this so many times.<br />
With your false incorrect distorted statements no one will believe it,<br />
And ok as per you johnson died in a fight or some ABC reason or some sexual thing is involved in it,<br />
i just ask you one Question?<br />
What is the role of Master of beas in it?<br />
why are you dragging Masters of Beas only,<br />
where there are many other official branches and many unofficial branches with name radhasoami,<br />
why no one points at them,<br />
SIMPLE REASONS,<br />
because <br />
RSSB is the single most spiritual organisation with so much of spiritual wealth and popularity that no other spiritual organisation has in this world.<br />
Agra masters are always jealous of BEAS popularity,<br />
And Saligram is not the one who started RADHASOAMI path neither the name choosen by him,<br />
It was only choosen by Jaimal singh baba ji,<br />
You are trying to just play around with your own words,<br />
I bought the book radhaosoami reality and read it,<br />
found it quite boring,<br />
waste my money on it,<br />
And mike whether you believe it or not,<br />
JAIMAL singh ji was loved liked admired by SOAMI JI and all the spiritual wealth has been transferred to JAIMAL singh ji by SOAMI Ji maharaj.</p>
<p>And you are the master of Misquotes and Misinformations Mike not me.</p>
<p>I m not posting here because i like RSSB or i follow RSSB,<br />
i m posting here because of your misquotes,incorrect information and false allegations.</p>
<p>I know all details in depth history of AGRA and BEAS.<br />
you do not know anything,just heared stories and false propaganda.<br />
Till date in history BEAS masters neither their sewadars or any other connected to them spreaded false propaganda aganist anyone or did they said bad aganist anyone.<br />
ALL the other insititutes spoke ill and aganist RSSB because of their popularity.<br />
And ofcourse also because all these allegations and false infromation do not effect the value and popularity of RSSB :) <br />
and that amuse them a lot. <br />
<br />
</p>Gaz commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744b28694970d2012-09-13T09:10:07Z2012-09-13T09:10:07ZGazMike, I am Gaz NOT your friend, you should ask Brian and he will tell you. You haven't answered everything,...<p>Mike,</p>
<p>I am Gaz NOT your friend, you should ask Brian and he will tell you.</p>
<p>You haven't answered everything, you cite Kirpal singh alot in your history, you use him as a source for your findings, and yet you also call him a liar, that alone is enough to know that you're lying.</p>
<p>'I knew David Lane long before there were any forums, if he has ever found anything wrong with what I wrote, he has never said what it was. And, I am sure if there had been, he would have said something'.</p>
<p><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radhasoamistudies/message/198339" rel="nofollow">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radhasoamistudies/message/198339</a></p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31d2fce9970b2012-09-13T01:49:39Z2012-09-13T15:44:55ZMike WilliamsHi Your Friend AKA Gaz "And this jaimal singh ji choose RADHASOAMI, so the founder is jaimal singh baba ji,"...<p>Hi Your Friend AKA Gaz</p>
<p>"And this jaimal singh ji choose RADHASOAMI,<br />
so the founder is jaimal singh baba ji,"</p>
<p>Maybe in a parallel universe he was, but not in<br />
this one.</p>
<p>"I know a sevador who is 106 years old and he got Nam from Jaimal Singh"</p>
<p>Jaimal Singh died in 1903. That would be impossible. That alone<br />
tells me you are fabricating your posts.</p>
<p>2012<br />
-106<br />
--------<br />
1906</p>
<p>Secondly, David Lane admitted writing the book<br />
Radhasoami Reality on his club. The book was published under<br />
Juergensmeyer's name. So, he can't say anything about<br />
anyone not using their real name.</p>
<p>"Dr Johnson died in a fight (at Beas)"</p>
<p>Correct. He did. Read the letters between lawyers<br />
on my site regarding the incident. There were sexual<br />
connotations by Beas reps passed down not mentioned in the<br />
letters for obvious reasons that I am privy to.</p>
<p>I knew David Lane long before there were any forums.<br />
If he has ever found anything wrong with what I wrote,<br />
he has never said what it was. And, I am sure if there<br />
had been, he would have said something. My book was<br />
linked on his website shortly after it was written.</p>
<p>All your other points are misquotes. If you misquote<br />
I will not respond. That's getting too flakey when you<br />
misquote as your doing. It just wastes my time."</p>Gaz commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744af8aa0970d2012-09-12T21:28:14Z2012-09-13T15:44:55ZGazI am with 'Your Friend', Mike Williams's so called secret history is not right. At least critics such as Brian...<p>I am with 'Your Friend', Mike Williams's so called secret history is not right. At least critics such as Brian and David Lane have the guts to show their face and not hide. <br />
I'm not against RS critics, just like Brian, I want the truth and have always been a truth seeker.<br />
First of all, Mike Williams makes lots of claims about Kirpal Singh saying x,y,z e.g. about Jaimal Singh, and on the other hand, I have read Mike say in this forum that Kirpal Singh is evil and is the biggest liar, isn't that contradictory? Why he is using Kirpal Singh as source and at the same time calling him a liar? Doesn't take Einstein to figure out that something isn't right.</p>
<p>Also how does Mike know that Jaimal Singh was short and stocky, did he actually see him? I know a sevador who is 106 years old and he got Nam from Jaimal Singh, he described him as pretty tall and not stocky. <br />
Also I know someone's grandfather who used to travel with Jaimal Singh in India, he was a very close companion of his, he still followed the RS faith after Jaimal Singh's death.<br />
Also Mike claims that Dr Johnson's wife was caught having intercourse and Dr Johnson died in a fight? How realistic does that sound? I think in a Yahoo forum, David Lane also questioned the authenticity of such claim and he questioned the authenticity of most of the claims made by Mike.<br />
I know the Indian culture very well, and since Julian Johnson died a very long time ago, anything like that would be severely condoned in India, especially Punjab, no man would ever dare to do that in Punjab. Back then the Indian culture was so strict and still is.</p>
<p>Another point, I think that Rai Saligram was a God orientated soul, but I have heard he used miracles to heal people in hospitals. One of the fundamentals of a true master is NOT to use miracle powers.</p>
<p>Also you say you have heard Gurinder say he would burn all the RS books, so untrue, I have heard so many times Gurinder say please read previous books and may have even recommended some.<br />
Previously you have stated that David Lane saw the radiant form of Charan Singh, and when he questioned the authenticity of it, the radiant form disappeared. I've never read Dr Lane state anything like that.</p>
<p>Another funny part about you is that you state in your Beas Secrets that Dr Lane 'forgot' to incorporate the Beas secrets into his book. Like someone would forget and as mentioned before I have seen him question the authenticity of your findings in the Yahoo forum. </p>
<p>I am a truth seeker, I want to be receptive to true claims, David Lane opens my mind up more than Mike does. <br />
Mike, whether you believe in God or not, lying is deleterious, when judgement day comes, no Doctor will be able to help you, no one will, all these deleterious things will come back at you and you will regret it, and it will be too late to rectify things.<br />
I don't have a problem if you have been totally honest, but from many of the above points, it looks like you have been lying.</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31d15a93970b2012-09-12T19:48:18Z2012-09-13T15:44:55ZJanya BarrishThanks Peacemaker! This is good advice. When in Rome do as the Romans do.<p>Thanks Peacemaker! This is good advice. When in Rome do as the Romans do. </p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744aef7a6970d2012-09-12T19:07:19Z2012-09-12T19:35:16ZJanya BarrishDear Your Friend, Personally I do appreciate your sentiments and your perfect right to defend your faith and the people...<p>Dear Your Friend,</p>
<p>Personally I do appreciate your sentiments and your perfect right to defend your faith and the people involved in it. This said, I must tell you that Jaimal Singh Ji did not choose RADHASOAMI as the title -name for his panth. Sir Shiv Dayal's last dying words while he looked at Seth Pratap Singh were: </p>
<p>Maera mat tho Satnam aur Anaami ka Tha, aur Radha Soami Math, Salig Raam ka chalaya hua hai. Eees ko bhi chalnae daena.</p>
<p>Mike didn't say this. Soami Shiv Dayal ji did.</p>Peaceseeker commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31d11417970b2012-09-12T18:34:47Z2012-09-12T19:35:16ZPeaceseekerJayna, im not getting you to enjoy anything, im merely suggesting that you enjoy maya in its entirety.<p>Jayna, im not getting you to enjoy anything, im merely suggesting that you enjoy maya in its entirety. <br />
</p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31d0cfcf970b2012-09-12T17:33:23Z2012-09-12T19:35:16ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourSalig ram was not param santh and you are talking about beas would not appreciate it, even agra people would...<p>Salig ram was not param santh and you are talking about beas would not appreciate it,<br />
even agra people would not appreciate it,<br />
Even Soami ji didnt spoke about it openly,<br />
because of soami ji maharaj and jaimal singh jis orders,no one will openly raise points aganist salig ram,who was actually not an param santh.<br />
Like Mike williams take the liberty to say whatever he wants in his beas history or here in blog <br />
i take liberty to say it,<br />
yes the truth is out mike,<br />
Salig ram was not param santh,<br />
and for your kind information,<br />
RSSB founder is jaimal singh baba ji,<br />
Soami ji order jaimal singh baba ji to go to beas and preach spirituality from there,<br />
He gave all the authority to jaimal singh ji for whatever name you would like to give to the path.<br />
And this jaimal singh ji choose RADHASOAMI,<br />
so the founder is jaimal singh baba ji,in the guidance of SOAMI Ji maharaj.<br />
Now stop false propoganda MIKE.<br />
come out and show your real face.<br />
Enough of HIDE n SEEK.<br />
You will gain nothing out of this. </p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31d0a071970b2012-09-12T16:50:16Z2012-09-12T19:35:16ZJanya BarrishActually this is where I wished for this to be posted, in the critique thread. Thank you. Reading further into...<p>Actually this is where I wished for this to be posted, in the critique thread. Thank you.</p>
<p>Reading further into the Agra books link in Secret History pages, my decades old antipathy to the use and overuse of the word "Surat" and "Current" in the RSSB/Sant Math literature has resurfaced. In my opinion the cosmogony would be far more effective and efficient, modern and non-sectarian if these traditional, loaded words were dropped and modern ones used instead. For example, " (Directed/directional/self motivated) surge of energy" or something similar could be used instead of "current". Even the sporadically used RSSB pharase "audible life stream" is less irritating and better describes the phenomenon. Radha -Soami as well as the other names of "being plus location" combos could likewise be described more elegantly and in universal terms so that non-Northern Indian audiences would be better served, without the unneccessary sectarian exclusivity, confusions and mystique.</p>
<p>More importantly, it is very destructive and a real disservice to humanity to fixate on just one fact/attribute of the infinite Absolute Reality, vis.a vis. the assertion that the "Sound Current" is the only way to return to the Nameless-True One. The hearable connection to the Nameless-True One, is only made through one of our sense organs, the ear (inner ear). We have other organs of perception as well, don't we? Imagine telling a newborn that they should blind themselves or cut their noses off for these are not needed; the only sense needed to experience physical reality is the sense of hearing! But the Nameless-True One, is not exclusively sound! This one-sidedness of the Santh Math system as evidenced in the pathological attachment to the sound current appears to be the culprit in that which manifests as Santh Math specific egotism /evil.</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3bff1685970c2012-09-12T16:38:40Z2012-09-12T19:35:16ZJanya BarrishPeaceseeker - What are you trying to get me to enjoy? Ignorance? or are you referring to something else? Thank...<p>Peaceseeker - What are you trying to get me to enjoy? Ignorance? or are you referring to something else? Thank you.</p>Peaceseeker commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3bfeca6f970c2012-09-12T15:30:03Z2012-09-12T19:35:16ZPeaceseekerJanya, you should try and enjoy it aswell !!!! PS<p>Janya, you should try and enjoy it aswell !!!!<br />
PS</p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31d052f7970b2012-09-12T15:28:00Z2012-09-12T19:35:16ZMike WilliamsYour Friend, Chachaji was a he, not a she, as you state. If you do not believe Salig Ram was...<p>Your Friend,<br />
Chachaji was a he, not a she, as you state.</p>
<p>If you do not believe Salig Ram was a<br />
Param Sant and founder of your faith<br />
its impossible to be a Radhasoami.</p>
<p>Your peoples historical conception is so messed up you are critisizing your own founder. You don't even know who the Founder was.</p>
<p>If you want to critisize Salig Ram, that<br />
would make you an exsatsangi.</p>
<p>Neither Beas, nor Agra would agree with<br />
anything you are saying.</p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744ad5689970d2012-09-12T12:30:03Z2012-09-12T17:33:28ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourMIKE WILLIAMS THE FAKE WRITER I challange you to show me that chahchi jis LETTER, I can tell you is...<p>MIKE WILLIAMS THE FAKE WRITER<br />
I challange you to show me that chahchi jis LETTER,<br />
I can tell you is it a true letter by chachi ji or a saligram crooks stunt.</p>
<p>And if you want any proofs and evidence from my side.<br />
MOST welcome to india,<br />
Place any place of your choice.</p>Your Friend commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3bfe0719970c2012-09-12T12:27:36Z2012-09-12T17:33:28ZYour Friendhttp://profile.typepad.com/friendyourLet us put some light on fake statements of MIKE WILLIAMS ONCE AGAIN> 1.Jaimal initiated under council authority of Misra....<p>Let us put some light on fake statements of MIKE WILLIAMS ONCE AGAIN></p>
<p>1.Jaimal initiated under council authority of Misra.<br />
Misra (w/ Chachaji and Sudarshan) were excommmunicating Jaimal<br />
just 3 days before he died, for posing as a Guru. The Coucil logs<br />
exist to this day. Salig Ram had thrown Jaimal out<br />
of his satsang for his misbehaviour of living with two<br />
extremely young girls down the street from his satsang<br />
and posing as a Guru.</p>
<p>A= What an rubbish complete incorrect infromation by agra funded mike williams,<br />
it was actually saligram the molestor,who has a bad character,thats the reason soami ji never wanted him to lead,but he knew if he doesnt give rights to continue his lineage in agra this crook saligram will create more havoc.so he forcibly gave saligram the lienage. </p>
<p><br />
2.Jaimal was a real flake. Everyone rejected him.</p>
<p>A= Infact everyone loved and respected jaimal singh ji after soami ji maharaj he was the most respected person and loved which actually soami ji family didng liked it.SO what mike williams stats here is a fake statment again.</p>
<p><br />
3.Sawan initiated under the last two council Gurus. It was<br />
around 1918 Sawan declared himself a master.</p>
<p>A=Completelty incorrect,sawan singh baba ji never declared any such.</p>
<p><br />
4.But, Sawan would go sit at the feet of the last Agra Guru<br />
Babuji, for 2 weeks at a time, on the ground in front<br />
of him, with his other disciples and ask questions.<br />
A=Sawan singh ji never asked any questions.</p>
<p><br />
5.Beas was using Agra books into the 1930's and Beas records<br />
Salig Ram and Misra books being sent by Sawan to the Brocks<br />
in the USA at this time.</p>
<p>Beas books mention all Agra Gurus at one point or another<br />
calling them Masters and Sat Gurus. Even Chachaji and<br />
Sudarshan are considered Sat Gurus by Beas in their<br />
books and Sawan bowed down to both of them. Even called<br />
Sudarshan Radhasoami himself.</p>
<p><br />
A= yes sawan singh baba ji regarded and rspected agra masters for SOAMI JI maharaj,he anyhow never disrespected anyone,in his life,he was a kind and soft speaking person.BEcause of soami ji maharaj all RS Masters still have soft corner for AGRA masters,But Agra masters are egostic and are very much jealous of popularity of BEAS masters.</p>
<p><br />
6.It is one of the great historical scandals in religious history<br />
that Beas has left the founder of Radhasoami Faith out of<br />
their lineage. That would be like leaving Jesus out of<br />
Christianity. Certain Western historians such as Juergensmeyer<br />
and Lane completely left this out of their books.<br />
A= A very stupid allegation from MIKE WILLIAMS once again,<br />
There is still evidence and proofs of letters by SOAMI ji maharaj available that the actual perfect livig master is JAIMAL SINGH and he will enherit true spiritual wealth among the others.MIKE WILLIAMS is upto something with nothing in his hands.<br />
Anyways his beas history has been read by millions and rejected by millions.</p>
<p>7.There are 2 known photographs of Jaimal. All photos on the<br />
internet are bogus. Jaimal was short and stocky.</p>
<p>Beas does not show the Jaimal photos because he was never considered<br />
a Guru and was scandal ridden. Jaimal admitted in a letter<br />
to Misra and Chachaji he "was not a sant". The letter still exists.</p>
<p><br />
A=what a stupidity,BEAS always considered JAIMAL SINGH JI THE PARAM SANTH along with SOAMI JI MAHARAJ,who was always fond of jaimal singh ji,though they deny that jaimal hardly met soami ji,this is a propoganda by beas lienage who are jealous of beas popularity,but actual facts with evidences are avaialble that soami ji was very fond of jaimal singh ji,and its because of jaimal singh ji order they have not put any picture of him anywhere,<br />
because jaimal singh just to choose a name of path choosen the name RADHASOAMI,<br />
where as soami ji said its your wish jaimal,<br />
you can keep anyname you like,<br />
but my desh is anami desh,i would like to call it anami,<br />
you can keep whatever name seems suitable for you.so the name RADHASOAMI Was choosen,<br />
they also say the name radha soami signifies,radha soami jis wife name and soami ji name himself,<br />
And BEAS masters respect and regard JAIMAL SINGH Ji as Perfect living master,thats the reason it is called DERA BABA JAIMAL SINGH JI.<br />
MIKE bring true facts not rubbish manipulated records it will give you nothing neither get you anywhere.</p>
<p><br />
8.Chachaji forced Sawan to be the administrator at Beas after<br />
Jaimal's death. Chachaji was the President of the Council at<br />
that time. Beas does not tell people this.</p>
<p>See page 4 of RS Beas Secret History for the devestating facts about<br />
Jaimal.</p>
<p>A-again a stupid allegation,chachi never forced,she requested sawan singh baba ji,but that was pre decided by jaimal sigh baba ji,that sawan singh baba ji would lead the linage of beas after him,its just AGRA jealous peeople are trying to highlight there greatness just to show everyone that actually AGRA MASTERS AND LINEAGE is grear,which actually is not,<br />
SOAMI JI clearly said that the true spiritual wealth belongs to JAIMAL SINGH BABA JI ALONE></p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31ce06cf970b2012-09-12T04:47:58Z2012-09-12T19:35:16ZJanya BarrishHi Mike, Thanks for the History pages and the links therein, including the Agra Book link which has kept me...<p>Hi Mike,</p>
<p>Thanks for the History pages and the links therein, including the Agra Book link which has kept me busy reading for hours. </p>
<p>Maya and Maya. But its ok to study and dissect Maya, what else can we do? </p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31cc33e8970b2012-09-11T21:19:05Z2012-09-12T00:37:21ZJanya BarrishAuthor Lalla Pratap Singh Seth (Shiv Dayal Swamiji's youngest brother. He had one other brother)emphatically says in the book he...<p></p>
<p>Author Lalla Pratap Singh Seth (Shiv Dayal Swamiji's youngest brother. He had one other brother)emphatically says in the book he authored called Jeevan Charitr<br />
Swamiji Maharaj, that Swamiji Maharaj had no Guru. He obtained no lectures - training (updesh) about Parmathma (GOD etc.)from anyone. However RSSB says that he was initiated by Tulsi Das when he was 6 years old! Sant Kabir Das as well as TulsiDas were initiated by Swami Ramanand, a Vaishnava sant. Ramananda believed that the human soul is distinct from the Supreme Spirit and retains its identity and separate consciousness. (Wiki)</p>
<p>Also Shiv Dayal ji says that his teachings were of the nameless true one. Radha-Saomi teachings are of the Lord of the Soul.(My note: Man is essentially three membered with a body, soul, spirit). Why would he make this distinction on his deathbed if it was not important? Is there truly some hidden difference between the two? Having said this, does it really matter, if in the end a Ms.Bukki type occurrence takes place? But then again, maybe she got possessed by some other devil entity pretending to be Shiv Dayal? Or was this truly a mental health issue for her? Then there are the accounts by Maheshwari on the Agra books link (Mike's RSSB history pages)about "possessions" of various people and how only by Guru's pics and Naam were they able to become "other entity" free. Come to my aid Occam's razor! It was he.</p>
<p>And personally, I am intrigued as to why after decades, I have been brought back here to ponder RSSB history, especially since I had thought it completely irrelevant at initiation. </p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p><br />
</p>tucson commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3bf9de50970c2012-09-11T17:50:16Z2012-09-12T00:37:21ZtucsonThanks Mike, What a convoluted mess RS politics is, certainly not the type of thing you would expect from param...<p>Thanks Mike,</p>
<p>What a convoluted mess RS politics is, certainly not the type of thing you would expect from param sant sat gurus, or maybe it is. What do I know what unseen wisdom lies in their seeming corruption? But it sure sounds like politics as usual as it manifests anywhere humans seek personal advancement and power.<br />
<br />
For decades I had the blinders on regarding this stuff. Now, it would be inconceivable for me to consider a return to this sordid path and the commensurate rennet obsession. How can anyone? </p>
<p>However, I still know people who have full devotion and faith in the power and glory of one Gurinder Singh Dhillon even though I have refered them to your Secret History site and others. One even knows David Lane and went to David's bodysurfing competition. Did you know Lane won the age 55 and over division of the World Bodysurfing Championships in Oceanside, CA this year? Bodysurfing beats simran and bhajan every time. Takes you right into the lap of God.<br />
</p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744a86dc9970d2012-09-11T14:52:21Z2012-09-11T17:30:59ZMike WilliamsHi Tucson, Jaimal initiated under council authority of Misra. Misra (w/ Chachaji and Sudarshan) were excommmunicating Jaimal just 3 days...<p></p>
<p>Hi Tucson,</p>
<p>Jaimal initiated under council authority of Misra.<br />
Misra (w/ Chachaji and Sudarshan) were excommmunicating Jaimal<br />
just 3 days before he died, for posing as a Guru. The Coucil logs<br />
exist to this day. Salig Ram had thrown Jaimal out<br />
of his satsang for his misbehaviour of living with two<br />
extremely young girls down the street from his satsang<br />
and posing as a Guru.</p>
<p>Jaimal was a real flake. Everyone rejected him.</p>
<p>Sawan initiated under the last two council Gurus. It was<br />
around 1918 Sawan declared himself a master.</p>
<p>But, Sawan would go sit at the feet of the last Agra Guru<br />
Babuji, for 2 weeks at a time, on the ground in front <br />
of him, with his other disciples and ask questions.</p>
<p>Beas was using Agra books into the 1930's and Beas records<br />
Salig Ram and Misra books being sent by Sawan to the Brocks<br />
in the USA at this time.</p>
<p>Beas books mention all Agra Gurus at one point or another<br />
calling them Masters and Sat Gurus. Even Chachaji and<br />
Sudarshan are considered Sat Gurus by Beas in their<br />
books and Sawan bowed down to both of them. Even called<br />
Sudarshan Radhasoami himself.</p>
<p>It is one of the great historical scandals in religious history<br />
that Beas has left the founder of Radhasoami Faith out of<br />
their lineage. That would be like leaving Jesus out of<br />
Christianity. Certain Western historians such as Juergensmeyer<br />
and Lane completely left this out of their books.</p>
<p>There are 2 known photographs of Jaimal. All photos on the <br />
internet are bogus. Jaimal was short and stocky.</p>
<p>Beas does not show the Jaimal photos because he was never considered<br />
a Guru and was scandal ridden. Jaimal admitted in a letter<br />
to Misra and Chachaji he "was not a sant". The letter still exists.</p>
<p>Chachaji forced Sawan to be the administrator at Beas after<br />
Jaimal's death. Chachaji was the President of the Council at <br />
that time. Beas does not tell people this.</p>
<p>See page 4 of RS Beas Secret History for the devestating facts about<br />
Jaimal.</p>
<p><a href="http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html</a><br />
</p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744a73203970d2012-09-11T09:16:13Z2012-09-11T17:30:59ZJanya BarrishHindus don't have living masters? HA HA. Buddhists don't? HA HA HA, what/Who do you think the Dalai Lama is?...<p>Hindus don't have living masters? HA HA. Buddhists don't? HA HA HA, what/Who do you think the Dalai Lama is? Christians don't? They have the most high Living master. YA YA YA. </p>
<p>Ok, whatever floats your boat.</p>Juan commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744a686b8970d2012-09-11T06:17:09Z2012-09-11T17:30:59ZJuanI think to see Live Evidence, it is must to see Live Show, and to conduct Live Show a Living...<p>I think to see Live Evidence, it is must to see Live Show, and to conduct Live Show a Living Master is a Must, and neither Hindus nor Buddhas and Christians are having Living Masters.</p>tucson commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3bf6d90b970c2012-09-11T04:35:13Z2012-09-11T17:30:59ZtucsonHi Mike Williams, You said that Beas admits all the Agra lineage were genuine masters. This is of interest to...<p>Hi Mike Williams,</p>
<p>You said that Beas admits all the Agra lineage were genuine masters.</p>
<p>This is of interest to me as a curiosity because as a former Beas devotee I never heard any such referrence to Agra. It seemed to me to be a taboo subject. I am sure Professor Bhatnagar, in a guest house discussion with foreigners at the Beas Dera, would have shut me down with a cutting remark if I had raised the issue, Bhatnagar being of a notably sweet and patient disposition...not!</p>
<p>This is not to challenge your contention. I am just curious if there is doumentation of Beas acknowledging the Agra masters as genuine.</p>
<p>It is also interesting that there are no publicized photos of Jaimal even though I was told there are some in the hands of a select few. This has always seemed odd to me, maybe even suspicious. Do you know anything about this? </p>Mike Williams commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017d3bf697d1970c2012-09-11T03:25:42Z2012-09-11T04:06:38ZMike WilliamsHi Tao, I actually considered seriously putting on my website the evolution of ape to man, with the final photo...<p>Hi Tao,<br />
I actually considered seriously putting<br />
on my website the evolution of ape to man,<br />
with the final photo being Rajinder,<br />
right after Al Capone and Willie Sutton.</p>
<p>Look at him and you will know why.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EZXNJ9eaQ8&feature=related" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EZXNJ9eaQ8&feature=related</a></p>Janya Barrish commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31c81f5f970b2012-09-11T02:58:19Z2012-09-11T04:06:38ZJanya BarrishYes Roger, GOD indeed is great and is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient. Feel free to call the Great One anything because:...<p>Yes Roger, GOD indeed is great and is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient.</p>
<p>Feel free to call the Great One anything because:<br />
<br />
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"</p>
<p><br />
</p>tAo commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017744a5b555970d2012-09-11T02:31:39Z2012-09-11T04:06:38ZtAoBeas Boxing Babas http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lletEcUT2H4<p>Beas Boxing Babas</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lletEcUT2H4" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lletEcUT2H4</a></p>
<p><br />
</p>Roger commented on 'Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2017c31c757b5970b2012-09-10T23:38:40Z2012-09-11T04:06:38ZRogerFinally, Chapter 4 has replaced the $4.5 million house. God is Great!!!<p>Finally, Chapter 4 has replaced the $4.5 million house. God is Great!!!</p>