Chapter 4 of RSSB expose: belief system critique

Here's the final installment of material sent to me by an email correspondent, Unknown, who assembled writings by a high-ranking Radha Soami Satsang Beas official (who called himself Waking Now) that appeared online some years ago after Waking Now became disillusioned with what he came to view as a cult.

Previous postings of Waking Now's writings are here, here, here, and here. This installment, which mostly is a critique of the RSSB belief system, is my favorite.

Whether or not someone agrees with Waking Now's conclusion that living one's life is best accomplished without submitting to the dictates of a guru figure, it's interesting to learn about the belief-to-disbelief trajectory of someone who was so deeply involved with the highest level of a religious organization for so long.

I was initiated by one of the RSSB gurus mentioned by Waking Now. I still have a great deal of fondness for Charan Singh, whom I was able to see in person during a two week visit to India in 1977.

Several decades later I was pleased to be able to write a book for RSSB, Life is Fair, on a subject that reportedly was dear to the heart of Charan Singh (when I was asked if I wanted to work on this project, I was told that the now-deceased guru had wanted to be able to hand out a small book that described the karmic rationale for vegetarianism).

So I have some understanding of how difficult it must have been for Waking Now to dissociate himself from the Radha Soami Satsang Beas organization in an effort to come closer to truth, reality, and his own self.

I don't feel that revealing the human side of a guru diminishes his value as a spiritual guide or teacher. Rather, it makes me feel closer to Charan Singh, or anyone else who has been raised to an undefensibly high godly platform.

Read on. As before, Waking Now's writings can be read by clicking on the continuation to this post, or by downloading this PDF file.
Download RSSB Chapters 6-7 PDF

Critique of the RS Belief System

[First excerpt is Waking Now’s response to a defender of the beliefs….]

Nothing that you have posted validates that there is a scientific method for God realization which the RS Cult, now called ‘Science of the Soul’ Fellowship, dispenses to its Initiates in return for the prescribed personal disciplines and rituals, such as meditation, attending lectures and sewa (monetary or physical service).

After about 50 years of promoting the Cult as a Science of the Soul, I find it sad that the Cult is unable to collect supportive evidence from its tens of thousands of members to validate its claims.  Even the simple promise of the GIHF [God in Human Form] Guru becoming present in a Radiant Form in the disciple after Initiation remains uncorroborated.

Having to cite poems by a few Mystics of history as a validation of its science or mentioning relaxation response research as supportive, is grasping at straws.

These may be good for marketing the fantasy ‘Science of the Soul’, but science it is not.

I am no longer interested in mind cluttering intellectual discriminations. 

RS Gurus-No Shows in Meditation

Yes, RSSB initiation has tantric association in its emphasis on hearing sound in a recommended posture. ‘Tan’ is the body, ‘Tantric’ is related to the body.

Admittedly, psycho-physical experiences can be induced by certain practices but one would need to be in intimate Guru-Chela setting to safely have them.

RSSB has no real interest in inducing these experiences in its followers. In my case, never once did the Guru I accepted for years, inquire how I was faring in that department.
[My insert-this is a very telling statement as the author was responsible for representing the Institution to a large audience.]

Lack of interest on their part is beneficial because by staying away from serious practice, without intimate supervision, many followers are likely saved from harm.

In any case, for me, all these practices are distractions from our everyday lives where we are experiencing the face of Reality all the time.

**

RS Gurus-Sound distraction

My point of using the term life force, the power that gives us life, is that it includes the infinity of energy frequencies that support our life and therefore also includes sound vibrations (shabd, if you like) but is not limited to it. So for me, Shabd is not life force.

Therefore the experience of listening to sounds, inner or outer (and I encourage outer) is one of many possibilities of occupying our attention, nothing special.

However in the RS cult, this listening becomes the most important feature and all its explanations are directed to making it appear important.  I have not found Surat Shabd Yoga as a branch of the Classical Yoga tradition.  I feel the term is used by the RS cult to obtain importance by association to Yoga.

In Hatha Yoga, there is a mudra in which the facial openings are closed and during that mudra various sounds may be heard.  I was surprised when I found this description in Yoga books because before that I has bought the propaganda line that this Surat Shabd Yoga was a very exclusive secret method.

Yes, a primary meaning of Surat is attention, changing its meaning in the RS literature to Spirit is a sleight of mind.

The term Yogi also implies that the person is following all the Yamas and Niyams (Regulations) into his lifestyle.

It is good that the ex-satsangis do not focus on the spiritual.  This artificial separation of our life into spiritual and worldly is the cause of untold inner conflict in the RS cult members.

All of our human activities are imbued with the ‘spiritual’.

**

RS Guru-No Shows-at Death

One of the cornerstones of the RSS Beas Theology is that the Guru appears to the Disciple at the time of his death and takes his soul with him.

Sawan Singh is reported to have said in his Satsangs that if  a Guru does not come to his disciple at the time of death, then one should bid farewell to such a Guru from afar.

(Thinking about this now, I wonder how any of his listeners could ever answer such a question to decide whether to stick to the Guru, but the effect of this statement must have been to accept that Sawan Singh was not one of those other Gurus.)

Because of this belief, a ritual has developed among some Satsangis to question a dying person whether Maharaj Ji has come, and if not, then to ask whether the person remembers his Guru.

I was at the Dera about the time when Bibi Ralli,  a house helper of Sawan Singh died.  She had high fever during her last days and I remember hearing that Daryai Lal used to visit her often and ask, “Has Maharaj Ji come”? I also remember that while I heard of his asking, I never heard that she had replied, “Yes”.

A few years ago, a VIP Dera lady, initiated by Sawan Singh at a young age, died. A relative of hers told me that at her deathbed her sister asked the lady whether Maharaj Ji had come. She replied, “There is no Maharaj Ji”.

When this reply was reported to her husband, he said, “Don’t talk about this to anyone, their faith will be affected”.

Some years ago, a distant Hindu Satsangi relative, about 70 years old, died.  He felt unwell at home and lay down and asked his wife to send for a doctor.  While a family member went to fetch the doctor, he told his wife that he was going, and would she fetch him his personal copy of the Gita (a sacred Hindu book).  He clutched the Gita at his breast and peacefully died. His Guru Charan Singh did not come and he did not think of him at the time of his death.

I must add though that I have heard of a few cases where a dying person has claimed that Maharaj Ji has come, sat up in meditation posture and died.

I now understand such vision to be our own mental projections or hallucinations and not dependent on the Guru as touted in the theology.

**

Not only does the Guru play upon the natural human fear of death but also entices blatantly by promising company on the ‘Inner spiritual Journey’.

In the Preface of Charan Singh’s Die to Live, it says:

“Satsangis, his initiates die daily to this world in their mediation.  Daily they rehearse for that final departure.  But now, with their Master always with them, they travel those regions of Light and Sound through the Celestial Spheres of the creation within, back to the level of the Father, back to the divine source”.

When the seeker is hooked and enters the fold, he or she finds innumerable qualifications which make the experience of ‘the inner spiritual journey’ with ‘the Master always with them’ almost unattainable.

Then starts the push to alternative group highs in ritual meetings and project activities.

**

The notion that there are degrees of enlightenment is the seductive hook that the sellers of enlightenment use to trap the gullible.

“We offer you Level 7 enlightenment, the others only take you to level 2”.

“Come with us to Level 10, that’s where your suffering will really end”.  etc.,

All are selling false goods.

If someone says, “In my country we get mangoes.  Only by eating them can you fulfill your human destiny”, we would likely respond that it is outrageous to link the eating of mangoes to the purpose of human life.  Such a statement is false advertising.

The different “enlightenment experiences’ are just like that.  Some may find and like mangoes.  For other strawberries are heaven.  But these experiences are not the objective of human life.  A person who has experienced mangoes is no better as a human being than one who has tasted strawberries or even one who has tasted neither.

Whatever the experiences of Jiddu or UG [Krishnamurti], the important thing is that they pointed us towards experiencing our own life, fully, with open eyes.

**

(A response to a question if the Gurus really believe what they preach…)

The Gurus have to speak for themselves but Charan and Gurinder’s [Singh’s] interests and activities in our mundane world suggest to me that the experience of sublime regions, which they preached, either did not touch them or did not enthrall them.

Regarding mediation, I am convinced the RS meditation chore is simply a way of getting lost for a while in a mental space which may be relaxing for short periods but does not increase our inherent capacity for being attentive and enjoying our ever flowing world.  On the other hand the theology that goes with the RS meditation certainly makes our beautiful world insipid for the cult members and thereby deadens them. (Is this their ‘dying while living’?)

Of course the RS meditation chore can be used as the cult ritual but I know of people badly harmed by it.  If someone is listening, I tell them to get away from it.

To the initial chagrin of some RS cult members, I am totally free of the ritual for many years.

But I would advise learning to be centered within oneself just by sitting quietly so that we can be in that wonderful open mental state in our daily ordinary life.

**
(correspondence)

From knowing two others in this area who concentrated on meditation and took their lives, whenever I have an opportunity, I tell depressed satsangis to stay away from serious meditation and instead do things they enjoy.

About a year or two ago, I met a person who appeared suicidal on returning from the Dera and asked, tell me what activity would give you joy.  The answer I got was, To see the radiant form of the Master in meditation. I told the person that would be just your own projection based on your memory and imagination.

Anyway, what can one say to people who have lost their taste of the simple joys of being alive, receiving the gift of each new day and being attentive to all the details of one’s life.

About your conversation, it is amazing how the facts of ones life can be completely coloured by ones beliefs but beliefs can never reach the core of ones being in spite of the group effect and a sense of unease remains.

**
(responding to confused satsangi)

The words you quote like ‘I am a man like you’ and ‘see for yourself’ are doublespeak.

Anyone who sits on the Godman pedestal and says, I am a man like you, is telling a half-truth, which is a lie.

If he is on the Godman pedestal (set up by the Institutional propaganda), a truthful statement would be, I am a Godman like you, because we are all ‘whole’ as we are.

By proposing to make a distinction, the Godman sets up the ordinary man to buy the Godman’s goods.

The ‘See for Yourself’ is the most entrapping statement made by the Godmen, because it implies that there is indeed some verifiable inner experience of God which we can have if we only go along with the Godman’s directives.

This is false from the start because we all have our genetic predispositions and social conditioning and can never have the same visions (which are a worthless distraction anyway) as anyone else, neither the Godman nor the Mystic poets they quote.

But having bought the idea that there is an inner road with specific visions, we never clamber out of the guilt pit of our own inadequacies.  (It is our karma, we are unworthy etc.) for not seeing the visions.

These Cult doublespeaks (lies) rob the members of trust in their own day to day experience as the only experience of ‘God’ they will ever have.

What is the price of taking away a person’s trust in their own innate goodness (Godness)?

**

(Response to a Satsangi statement that Seva is a part of the Indian religious heritage.)

Not when you consider India as a whole.  The Sikhs do have a strong tradition of Langars (community kitchens) which was copied at the Dera.  The Indian Seva tradition at the RS sites is due to indoctrination that Sewa to the Guru is good for the disciple.  I have seen many Indian families neglecting their family members to join Seva teams.

**

(correspondence)

It is only after one has been out of the cult for some time that one realizes the subtle mind control techniques one was subjected to.

It starts with the talks repeating endlessly that the God Incarnate Guru sitting before you in person or photograph is essential for achieving God realization, and doing Sewa (service) to Him in all the prescribed ways (including free labour and donations for property development) accumulates ‘real’ spiritual treasure whereas looking after family and community is to be endured as a karmic burden of the Negative power.

Then one learns to utter the cult code word as greeting to each other so one is recognized in the cult Family.  No more good morning or good evening but RadhaSoami.  Then, if anything good happens, one learns to say, it is Master’s (Maharaj Ji’s, Baba Ji’s) Grace.  If something bad happens, one learns to say, it is my bad Karma. (From His side, Heads I win, Tails you lose, how clever!)

If you ask a cult member, how are you?, He learns to say, I am well by Master’s Grace. The cult member’s gratitude for the gift of life no longer includes the infinite Cosmos (God) which supported all life including his own from the beginning of time.

In his meditation the cult member learns to pray to the Guru for his well being. So even when he is taken advantage of by the Guru and his Officers, he is habituated to praying to the Guru for relief.  Like the little child who on being mistreated by a parent only knows to cry to help to the Mama or Papa.

After such indoctrination, it is not surprising that for most cult members the God Incarnate’s Grace idea is so deeply imprinted that they are unable to accept that they are being taken advantage of in a worldly way.

I imagine that if such cult members are lucky, some great internal or external event will shake them out of mind control.

Otherwise, C’est la vie.

**

The dependence of the followers on the immaculate God Incarnate Guru is encouraged and reinforced at every step of a cult member’s life. It starts by naming the cult head, Mararaj Ji, the Great Respected Lord.  This great Lord is touted to be the source of Grace for the lowly member.  At initiation, the member is asked to think of the Great Lord during meditation.  He is told to remember the Great Lord for help at time of worldly trouble.

He is asked to come to the Great Lord’s public rallies as much as possible for receiving a glance of Grace and told to regularly attend the indoctrination sessions (satsangs). He is encouraged to contribute as much as possible (Sewa) to the Great Lord’s work so that he receives ‘cash’ (that is, instant) spiritual benefits. (If he starts questioning where the touted benefits are, he is smothered by the explanations that he is to blame due to past karmas or due to not doing the full 2.5 hours meditation everyday, which would disqualify most of the members, or due to being on the first of his four lives for getting them.  In any case, he can still enjoy the group highs at gatherings.)

Even when mistreated by the Great Lord or his minions, the cult member is encouraged to think that the Great Lord is clearing his past sins (karmas).  After a few years, a member’s mind is so filled with God Incarnate beliefs that it is no longer easy to see with an open mind.

For many, it is a social support issue. The cult community is the only one they have since after joining they have become alienated from all normal relations with the world outside of their God Incarnate circle.  Also, as vegetarians and teetotalers, they are no longer comfortable in situations where people eat and drink.

Having become a dependent vine, it is difficult to transform into a self-supporting tree but, than God, not impossible.  The first step is to try standing and walking on ones own.

Charan Singh’s Mortal Life

Charan Singh-Very unhappy in last days

In the RSS Beas book, Tales of the Mysic East, there are stories of King Alexander and King Mahmud of Ghazani who on their death beds regretted how they had spent their lives and left messages for mankind to not follow their example.

I went to the Dera some weeks after Maharaj Charan Singh died, and in addition to paying respects to the Successor, met some people.

One official told me that Maharaj Ji had to go.  That startled me.

“Why”, I asked.

“He was facing insurmountable problems:

Some financial irregularities had been discovered,

A dispute about the use of the Commons riverside lands with a neighboring village had led to a shooting,

A politician visited him (in relation to the land dispute, I think) and had been abrasive.”

An Insider told me of his unhappiness because at the time Harjit [Charan Singh’s wife] had left the Dera without informing him.

He had asked a Confidant to arrange a visit of a woman friend from a long time.

(He had met her as a young woman and had wanted to marry her, but the Family Patriarch Sawan Singh had overruled him and insisted that he marry the Raja’s daughter).

He had been unable to get out of his feudal responsibility of obeying the Head for the good of the House, but he had met his friend, explained his situation and promised to remain helpful to her and her widowed mother (as I remember) for the rest of his life.

(He had continued to meet her socially, out of public view, with help of Confidants.  Their meetings were always very poignant.)

Corruption in transcript-words lost

“That’s not possible, Maharaj Ji”.

Later, I learnt that he repeatedly told his Confidant that he was very unhappy.

It did not appear that his heart problem was that serious but, in retrospect, it seems that his mental dissatisfactions had something to do with his quick death.

Louise Hilger told me that a few days before he died he had asked her to destroy all his confidential correspondence, which she did.

Maharaj Charan Singh, the Guru of a million followers, was very unhappy during his last days.

Is there a lesson in this for those he left behind?

***

Addressing God Incarnate attitudes toward subjects (followers)

Yes, they do enjoy using their power over their subjects.

The Courtiers, being close to them, have to bear public humiliation in their Circle, but complaints, particularly in public, are forbidden.  Even privately if one says more than a hint, he is in danger of being ousted from the inner circle.

A King learns these feudal techniques of ensuring submission by his Courtiers quickly.

That’s how after some time of such condition, the Courtiers lose their own inherent sense of justice and compassion and are willing to allow their fellow Satsangis to suffer, as in the Sawan Sadan case, in the name of the King.

**

I don’t think he [my insert-Charan] was interested in his Satsangis’ lives individually at all.

He was interested in the growth of a congregation that sat before him, bowed to him and did his bidding on various projects.

He was not a straight forward person at all, he spoke politically.

**

Charan Singh liked to collect woman’s jewelry.

A satsangi woman told me that once Charan Singh pressured her to accompany him on a satsang trip to a city in Rajasthan.  When they reached there, he prepared to go to give satsang but told her to go and look for antique jewelry for him.  She went looking and found some good deals from villagers who brought jewelry for sale in the market.

When Charan Singh and his party returned from the satsang, a Dera official told her that he had seen her come with Maharaj Ji but had not seen her at the satsang. She said she had some work to do, but did not disclose what the assignment from Maharaj Ji was.  That secrecy of not disclosing any personal interaction with Maharaj Ji was part of the Dera culture to which adherence was necessary for all inner circle people.

In a family if some members had an engagement with Maharaj Ji, they were expected not to disclose this even to their satsangi family members.  This was a loyalty test used by Maharaj Ji to select the privileged ones.  I myself have been a guest in a relative’s home who told me they had an evening engagement and later at night talked of their Royal visit during which I had figured in some conversation.

Comments

[Jeremy]

So interesting. Many, many thanks for publishing this Brian. If only I had read this 20 years ago, but then I probably would have rationalized it all away.

[tucson]

I wish Satsangis would read Chapter 4 of the RSSB Expose'.

I wish Satsangis of RSSB would not read Chapter 4 of the RSSB Expose'..

I do because it may save them a lifetime of servitude to an illusory path that encourages a neurotic disassociation with life as it is.

I don't because of the potentially devastating realization that their chosen path to salvation and the solution to the problem of their mortality is a fraud.

How can any Satsangi not look upon RSSB and its gurus with scepticism if not outright disdain after reading the above account?

If you're out there, please explain.

[ET]

I got initiated into RSSB because it sounded so plausible. Then I become a skeptic after about 20 years. I do not know why it took me so long to wake up.

Guess I just liked the old Master, he seemed like such a nice person that I could not believe that he was like Madoff -- a complete fraud.

Now I am embarrassed and feel like a fool.

[tAo]

I would like reiterate Tucson's statement. This too is was my reaction and my sentiment as well. Yes indeed...

"How can any Satsangi not look upon RSSB and its gurus with scepticism if not outright disdain after reading the above account?"

Its really strange... almost as if this last Chapter is well... as if like I thought and wrote this myself.

[Btw, I did not write it, but it sure sounds uncannily like my very own thoughts and my own conclusions that I had when I was at the Dera way back in April-May of 1990.]

Somehow I must have seen the same - had the same identicle insight and realization- as Mr Babani.

I am amazed, and I am also thankful to Unknown for keeping, assembling, and sharing this; and to Brian for having the integrity to put it up and make it public here on his site.

And soon, when I get around to it, I am going to print out all four chapters of the expose/testimony itself, and I am going to make at leasst a few dozen hard copies to pass around to other RS satsangis, if and whenever I encounter them. And then perhaps gradually, some of them will spread it on to others, and so on. And I suggest that other readers do the same.

Why???

Well because, if I had actually been able to read this revealing and insightful information way back in the beginning of my own involvement with RSSB, then I probably would have never got involved with RS, and I would have thus saved myself much time and unnecessary trouble and expense. And this info may even save a few others from wasting their lifetime in false hopes and misplaced effort. As the saying goes: A life, and a mind, is a terrible thing to waste.

Therefore, to pass this vital information on, to provide seekers and satsangis alike with the 'other side' of the story, is perhaps the greatest thing one can do to help save them from wasting their entire lives because of not knowing, and not having ALL of the cards upon the table. No doubt that is why Brian has published it here.

Its always up to each individual, but at least some folks will be able to have all of the facts, and not just the deceptively one-sided RSSB cult propaganda.

So I suggest and urge that every reader who reads this comment, to please copy and share and spread this information - in whatever form they like (via printed hard-copy or web-page etc) - to anyone (to seekers or initiated satsangis) who will receive it and who might somehow benefit by it. At least it gives them a chance to see the whole picture.

[zenjen]

Wow, Brian, Tucson, I can't believe how easily you people are fooled, especially when you all go on and on about having proof for everything else you can think of. Just shows that you will believe what you want to believe.

This fellow, Waking Now, supposedly a high-ranking official involved in the RSSB organisation doesn't even give his real name? Even if he did, these observations come from his own personal experiences and problems and also from other people's comments about their own personal problems and experiences. This is hearsay, gossip and vicious gossip at that.

Maharaj Charan Singh gave his life to serving the sangat and did so with the purest of intentions in following his own Master's orders. He was exemplary in his devotion and love for his Master and his humility and patience with his followers.

Unknown, Waking Now, whatever he likes to call himself, can fool you all but I will rely purely on my own personal experiences.

[Brian]

zenjen, I can say pretty confidently that Waking Now is a highly reliable witness of Dera goings-on. So there we are...faced with the need to choose.

Reality or religion?
Openness or closed-mindedness?
Experience or faith?

Each of us has to make those choices. What I appreciate about Waking Now's willingness to share his ideas is the additional perspective it sheds on these questions.

More information is almost always a good thing. That's all Unknown's emails to me have done-- provided additional information about Radha Soami Satsang Beas, another point of view from someone who was an intimate insider.

[tAo]

zenjen,

You really don't have a clue, do you?

You apparently did not pay adequate attention.

Unknown and Waking Now are two different people.

And the real name of the "high-ranking official involved in the RSSB organisation" was never witheld.

And for you to say such drivel as...

"Maharaj Charan Singh gave his life to serving the sangat and did so with the purest of intentions in following his own Master's orders. He was exemplary in his devotion and love for his Master and his humility and patience with his followers"

...is merely your own wishful, but unfortunately deluded fantasy... not reality. So spare us all that "purest", "exemplary", "devotion", "humility", and "patience" BS.

And also, the one who is fooled... is actually you.

[tAo]

PS: zenjen, you're an idiot... imo.

[zenjen]

tAo

I've just had a good laugh at your comments. You're welcome to your opinion of me ... who cares ... whatever ...

[Catherine Muller]

Hi there!

Reading all of the above, I confess I'm left a bit bemused. Here's why:

I’m of the opinion - and hey, this is my view, you don't have to share it - that every person on this planet is going to have exactly the life’s experience they chose to have before they were born and they will choose their personal religious / spiritual / existential / non-believing beliefs accordingly.

I believe that just as destiny is encoded in our DNA (we inherit behaviour traits from our forebears as well as predispositions to certain diseases, addictions and so on) I also believe we carry encoded traits from previous incarnations. So, I believe DNA is a blood-map and an energy map too.

According to this logic, what does it then matter what any other individual believes?

What does it matter how they find meaning?

If their life’s script is unfolding exactly as it’s meant to, then why bat an eye?

From this vantage point, every debate essentially ends in silence.

The final conclusion will be: I am me, you are you. We each focus on exactly being who we are right now.

Best, C

[Bob]

Regarding RSSB, if one is not willing to look at the whole picture, then one is just fooling themself.

For me - it was 5 things that ultimately got me questioning and then leaving the path.

1. Abortions performed at the Dera hospital in late 1980s. IMO, this contradicted the strong emphasis toward leading a clean karmic life - ie. vegetarian diet - no eggs in a donut, etc.

2. No internet discussion of RS - clearly stated in an edict from Beas.

3. Ordered to turn in any notes taken at the Palm Spring Bhandara - information control - most definitely.

4. Lack of spiritual progress in meditation after nearly 2 decades of dedicated meditation.

5. Satsang became a ritual of empty words.

I read Waking Now's post several years ago - they were just icing on the cake - and not the determing factor for me leaving. They verified that RSSB was certainly not the "spiritual" organization it claimed itself to be.

[tAo]

I very much do agree with Bob... and for all of his reasons too... and more.

----------------------------

I do NOT agree with Catherine Muller. Here's why:

I do not believe that "every person on this planet is going to have exactly the life’s experience they chose to have before they were born". That is is nothing but a fantasy, a fiction. There was no such "they", who "chose", "before they were born". There was no one "before".

I do not believe that people "choose" their beliefs, or choose anything... and there is no such thing as "non-believing beliefs". That is contradictory and absurd. There is only either belief, or no belief. "Non-believing" is simply NO belief.

I do not believe that "destiny is encoded in our DNA".

I definitely do not believe that "we carry encoded traits from previous incarnations", or that "DNA" has any connection whatsoever to any so-called past "incarnation".
.
I do not believe that those notions are any kind of "logic", and it does "matter" how individuals believe. And it does indeed "matter how they find meaning".

I do not believe that "their life’s script is unfolding exactly as it’s meant to". I do not believe in fate or in fatalism.

I do not think that "every debate essentially ends in silence".

I also do not think that there is any "final conclusion"... nor do I think that "I am me, you are you".

And "who we are"... is just another idea, another attempt to define that which is forever indefinable.

[Catherine Muller]

Hi there, tAo :-)

This is where my views come from ...

Re-incarnation and notions of life choice:

- the research and writings of Brian Weiss
- the work of Michael Newton
- the traditions of Tibetan Karmapas (the Yellow Hat tradition)
- the book 'The Search for Bridey Murphy'
- anecdotal reading on the ethnic spiritual beliefs of the indigenous people of Senegal and Nigeria.
- re-incarnation as written about in the Talmud and references made in the Nag-Hammadi scrolls.

The theory around spiritually encoded DNA:

- this is explained in the Book of Enoch as translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls. It's also explained in mystical aspects of the Kabbalah.

The genetic straits of DNA:

-these are directly observable and self-evident to all of us but also documented in the Lancet medical journal as well as other medical journals etc.

All the best, C

[Catherine Muller]

Hi again, tAo:

I'm posting this separately because I had to search among my web bookmarks to find it.

I think it's pretty fascinating.

Are you familiar with the Dogon tribe of Mali? What I find startling is that their creation myth that links to the spiritual origins of DNA (below) is akin to that of the Vedas.

Further, the British Broadcasting Corporation reported in 2004 that the Dogon were said to have astronomical knowledge that should have been beyond them, specifically relating to the star Sirius. It took NASA's Hubble space telescope to confirm what the Dogon already knew or thousands of years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2754524

Independent Dogon Researchers
Agree About DNA

An analysis by two independent researchers reveals the ancient Dogon religion recorded by Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen in the late 1940s and early 1950s discusses DNA and the creation of matter.

Shannon Dorey of Kitchener, Ontario and Laird Scranton of Albany, New York were both analyzing the Dogon religion independent of each other. Both came up with some of the same conclusions in their recently published books.

In her book, The Master of Speech (http://www.themasterofspeech.com/), Dorey uses descriptions from the Dogon elder Ogotemmêli to show he was discussing DNA when he spoke of the "helicoids sign" and "the fibres" that "fell in coils".

In Hidden Meanings Scranton used diagrams from the Dogon religion to reveal the structure of matter, starting with the atom and continuing all the way to the vibrating threads of string theory. He compared other Dogon diagrams to chromosomes and spindles during mitosis.

According to Dorey, "It is not surprising that Griaule and other anthropologists of the time missed the information in the religion related to DNA. Scientists didn't even discover DNA until 1953."

In 1946, the Dogon, who live in Mali in Africa, were one of the last tribes to come under French rule. They were thought to have been one of the best examples of “primitive savagery” known to the world at that time. Griaule admitted he didn't understand a lot of the information he conveyed to the world. He told it as Ogotemmêli had told it to him.

The alien Nummo, who were thought to have come from either the Sirius star system or the Pleiades, were described as being lizard, serpent and fish like. They were also said to have been self-fertilizing and amphibious. "It is the strange amphibious and androgynous characteristics of the alien Nummo that helps to authenticate their existence. If they had been created from the imagination, they would have been more human-like," Dorey said.

"Carl Sagan said in Cosmos that beings from other planets would probably not look anything like us because creatures generally evolve in relation to their own planet's environment. Sagan believed that the possibility of finding intelligent life on other planets was probable but the possibility of finding aliens who were like us was not."

According to Dorey, the first important symbol found in Ogotemmêli's conversation with Griaule was the symbol of the "word". The symbol of the "word" was used in the religion because speech was synonymous with intelligence and the only way the Earth animals were able to speak was when their DNA was combined with the Nummo's DNA. The "word" was a key symbol and was used throughout to describe the three different versions of the genetically engineered humans.

Dorey relates the Dogon use of the "word" as a symbol of DNA to the passage found in the biblical book of John. It is written, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. John 1:1 ... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." John1:14

Dorey said that in the Dogon religion when the Nummo combined their DNA with the animals of Earth to create humans the experiment failed. They tried two other experiments in an effort to correct the mistakes. It was the DNA of the Master of Speech that was supposed to provide hope for humanity and allow humans to eventually evolve into the immortal beings they were meant to be.

Dorey said the symbol for Christianity has always been the fish. The immortal and androgynous Master of Speech was half human and half fish like the Nummo. She/he was a Christ figure who was sacrificed for humanity. In the bible Jesus was seen walking on water and the Pope's ring is known as the fisherman's ring and on it is an engraving of a hall of fishes.

According to Dorey, there are traces of all the major religions of the world found in Dogon mythology suggesting it is the core religion from which all others have evolved. It is an Earth based religion and she feels it formed the basis of the pagan and Goddess religions. The symbols of the religion are also represented on the zodiac.

The information presented in her book will be disturbing for some individuals but she believes the facts speak for themselves. "If this is the truth of how humans began, then they need to know about it," she said.

It is difficult for society to accept views like those of Scranton and Dorey because they go against preconceived ideas of the way things are supposed to be. Dorey said, "it is very unpleasant to think that humanity could be a failed biological experiment or to think that an ancient African tribe could have advanced scientific knowledge. But sometimes whether we like it or not that's just the way it is."

For more on the Dogon on the cosmic egg, go here:
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/category/dogon-cosmic-egg/

Further, the VhaVenda tribe in Southern Africa who have as their belief the notion that when the tribal elder dies he will incarnate as a water snake and guard over the affairs of his kin. This is aligned directly with the Dogon mythology. To read more, go here:
http://www.nwowatcher.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2063&start=20

The links between DNA, serpent symbology and the Kundalini shakti are very clear to my mind.

best, C

[tAo]

Catherine,

I will try to address your points

You said that your "views come from..."

Brian Weiss, Michael Newton, Tibetan Karmapas,'The Search for Bridey Murphy', anecdotal reading on the beliefs of the people of Senegal and Nigeria, and re-incarnation in the Talmud and the Nag-Hammadi scrolls.

-- Well I doubt that any of those sources or beliefs have any substance, and I am quite familiar with the karmapas, and the nag hammadi scrolls, and there is really nothing there anywhere to prove that:

* people life’s experiences were chosen before they were born.

* that there was or is any entity/individual that has continuity of existence and transmigration..

* that beliefs are determined by choice or are chosen.

* that "destiny" is somehow encoded in DNA.

* or that traits are "encoded from previous incarnations", or that DNA has anything to do with other supposed past lives, past incarnations of some supposed individual entity. where is the supposed individual who supposedly re-incarnates? these are merely ideas and concepts, which are merely thoughts. there is no such actual individual entity anywhere who exists and has continuity and transmigration. And DNA is relevant only to organization and development of organic life.

* that it doesn't matter how individuals believe and how they find meaning.

* that there is a "life script that is unfolding exactly as it’s meant to".

* or that there is any actual entity such as "me" or "you".

You said: "The theory around spiritually encoded DNA"

-- There are many many "theories" about many many things... but so what. That does not prove any of the above.

* there also is nothing in the Book of Enoch or the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Kabbalah that substantiates any of those ideas or theories either.

* and I myself have no argument, and there is no argument, about the relationship between genetics and DNA. So why are you arguing that? And moreover, none of that has anything to do with these abstract theories about re-incarnation.

* I am well aware of medical and scientific journals. and I also well understand the domain of scientific rigor. THAT is my whole point - there is no scientific rigor in any of these theories about DNA and re-incarnation that you and others mention.

Before you go looking for theories about re-incarnation through DNA, you really ought to find out WHO you are, and whether or not there actually is anyone existing TO re-incarnate. You may be very surprised by what you find, or don't find.

Just try to find YOUR self first, before going off entertaining all these so-called theories.

The only reason that you believe any of that stuff is because you have not yet found out who and where and what and whether YOU are. In a sense, you're putting the cart before the horse.

In any case, basically all you have done here is to merely offer more of your opinions and cite others opinions... but all opinions are only thoughts which do not (or cannot) necessarily reflect fact, reality, or truth.

This is the same problem, the same old mistake which is repeated again and again by practically every believer who believes and buys into supernaturalism. Its the same old same old disconnect. And actually, its not very intelligent.

So think about that... instead of grabbing for more supernatural abstraction.

[Catherine Muller]

Hi tAo :-)

"I doubt that any of those sources or beliefs have any substance"

Actually, they certainly do - please investigate.

"there also is nothing in the Book of Enoch or the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Kabbalah that substantiates any of those ideas or theories either"

Really? Not so. Again, please investigate.

"try to find YOUR self first"
- what is self?
- when is it found?
- have you found yourself?

"grabbing for more supernatural abstraction"

Regarding the Dogon specifically, when science and anthropology are in accord, that's a supernatural abstraction? I'm afraid I disagree.

All the very best, C

[Cyfer]

Catherine,

waking now says

"5. Satsang became a ritual of empty words."

The first few years you hear it it's interesting. Then on it's just dogma.

We all got fooled but hey, it's part of our evolution now.

None of the RS gurus ever experienced cosmic consiousness. Except maybe swami ji. They all admit it repeatedly. You can tell by their stagnant writing.

I enjoy your links. You should read some of gopi krishna work on kundalini. The guy was inspired without question. He never had a guru or collected followers. No guru is necessary.

[tAo]

Louie, yeah thanks for pointing that out: ["None of the RS gurus ever experienced cosmic consiousness. They all admit it repeatedly. You can tell by their stagnant writing."] Those sages who HAVE experienced, never speak any dogma.

This reminds me of Jimi in his 1967 album:

Are You Experienced?

"If you can just get your mind together
Uh-then come on across to me
Well hold hands and then well watch the sunrise
From the bottom of the sea

But first, are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?
Well, I have

Well I know, I know, you'll probably scream and cry
That your little world wont let you go
But who in your measly little world,
Are you tryin to prove to that you're
Made out of gold and-uh, cant be sold

So-uh, are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?
Well, I have

Uh let me prove it to you, yeah
Trumpets and violins I can, hear in the distance
I think they're callin our name
Maybe now you can't hear them,
But you will, ha-ha, if you just
Take hold of my hand

Ohhh, but are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?
Not necessarily stoned, but Beautiful."

-- Jimi Hendrix

---------------------------------------

Catherine,

You said: "they certainly do - please investigate."

-- I don't need to "investigate". There is nothing proven in any of those ideas or beliefs, no matter what they are. You still don't realize that.

And I have already read the Book of Enoch and the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Kabbalah many years ago, and nothing is proven in any of those either. Its just more theories and concepts. Unfortunately you are still very hung up in the labyrinth of beliefs and concepts and faith in the supernatural... therefore you cannot yet see beyond that.

You ask: "what is self?" -- Exactly, THAT is precisely the point. And that is for you to answer, to find out, to discover.

You ask: "when is it found?"

-- You ask "when"? You mean, at what time? Well how would I know? I cannot determine what time. And you also said "it"... but what do you mean by "it"? Is there really anything TO BE "found"? I'd like to see, if you do find something.

You ask: "have you found yourself?"

-- What self? I have never said that I found anything. I simply suggested to you that you go and try to find your own self. Can you find it? And if so, where is it?

"Regarding the Dogon specifically"

-- I already knew about the Dogon decades ago. So what? That proves nothing.

"when science and anthropology are in accord, that's a supernatural abstraction?"

-- Its not the real science or the facts that are the problem here... its your conclusions, your interpretations that cross into supernaturalism.

You are like so many folks, you do not see the difference. You blur the lines. That is pseudo science. And any sort of belief or faith in the supernatural, that cannot be proven, is supernaturalism. You are caught in supernaturalism.

"I'm afraid I disagree."

-- Well you can disagree all you want, but it still doesn't make you or your beliefs right.

You obviously believe in things that are clearly in the domain of what is known as the supernatural. And so you do not understand there is a difference. And that's why you are a believer, and a follower, and why you rely upon faith and words and theology and so-called masters, and not upon reason and science and reality and your own direct experience.

Until you are able to wake up and realize what is actually real compared to what is just mere belief and faith in the supernatural, you will not understand what I am communicating to you. There is a disconnect here, and until you clear away or cut through all that sort of obscuration and memes, you will continue to mistake mere belief for actual reality.

[known]

tao, what exactly dont you know?

[tAo]

I haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about, or what you are asking about.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT you are asking.

So... perhaps you could better explain or clarify your question?

[tAo]

I don't know anything. Do YOU know anything... for certain?

[Jayme]

People don't sit and do nothing. They gather in social groups and build consensus reality and defend it as if real. This is not surprising is it? In our vanity, we join organizations to achieve or belong to something. However, conceptually I understand that peace through achievement or belonging is absurd. Being at peace seems like such a struggle.

"Those who are caught in the machinery of power take no joy except in activity and change - the whirring of the machine!... The active life! What a pity!" Chuang Tzu

I haven't been through all the postings on Brian's site and am pleased Robert Paul Howard posted on "Brain damage = Enlightenment?" I enjoyed Jill Bolte Taylor's talk about her stroke. It makes me think about the actual 'path' of light and sound advertised by the Sant Mat method.

I am sure the experiences within the practice of Sant Mat are associated with brain function (or lack thereof :) but do not see how it is so easy to switch from left to right brain beings without practice, a stroke, or drugs. Even the great speakers who say there is no teaching that can be taught by which to reach this state - speak long after they say it is best to say nothing. Many make a living at saying all this ado about nothing. Some say it is simply a recognition of the Now and requires no time, with which I do agree. Some say you do NOT need a teacher, with which I do agree. Others say you DO need a teacher, with which I do agree. However, it seems there are many of us who are burdened with all the senseless seeking and discipleship. Is there a 'practiceless' practice that alleviates this need for membership and teaching? The RSSB Master says the practice is to 'meditate and leave the rest to Him' and then adds loads of concepts (or 'rubbish' if you wish) in response to endless questions postulated by busy minds. I bought into these concepts and added my own layers of rationalization so that I could 'understand,' but I don't think I am any more 'Now' than if I simply shut up and observe the beautiful world around me - yet there is something inside me that says it is much more glorious than my simple encounters with presence (satori) but I can't be here and now just yet. So this seems mostly an egotistical inquiry, on my part, as we go merrily down this stream of life.

All this activity, as Chuang Tzu says, "What a pity!" This struggle against peace in search of peace is puzzling. Is struggling FOR peace so different than struggling AGAINST peace? The first to achieve peace takes all and collects when eternity ends. The loser loses all and is to be pitied to the end of time, afterwhich the loser forfeits all misery to the winner. In the mean time there sure seems to be a lot of hell to pay. lol

Warm or Kind Regards: wherever you are

[Catherine]

Unknown, to help the readers, would you consider giving your own name? If not,why not? Surely there is nothing more to lose. Waking Now appears to be Krishan Babani. Am I right? Surely, he wanted this known.

As far as DNA is concerned, the idea of rssb being a family business has been justified by some satsangis as an extension of the God-DNA through the generations. I would not know how such satsangis would know that it's God-DNA and there is to date a necessity for a clear definition of God.

Recently, Michael Palin who works for the BBC had his Astrological Chart drawn up in the Himalayas. It claimed that he was an elephant in his past life and would come back as a daughter of rich parents in his next life. When he expressed scepticism, the astrologer stated that he could change his future incarnation by working on himself from now onward. In this light, some people will also believe that through long periods of sitting meditation we can also change our DNA.

In a recent post a satsangi claimed to find the Polynesian system of viewing after-life as making a great deal of sense. However, like all satangis she was heavily invested in the santmat after-life concept. This is obvious, because a satsangi's meditation involves calling up for a minimum of two hours daily the names of what is believed to be the five rulers of the five regions through which the satsangi will pass after death of the body. Thereafter there is a half hour period of listening for particular musics to start pulling their souls into and through these regions. The guru is of course the guide, or 'saviour' all the while and the claimed original home of the guru is also believed to be the satsangi's so-called home.

In this way, no satsangi can believe that the guru is anything other than a soul guide of the highest kind who can accompany them back to their original home through various regions, since the meditation speaks for itself. He cannot for instance be just a amusing person who is very pure and who they like being around; because they have bought hook, line and sinker into the meditation process.

Although a satsangi may consider the possibility that humans may be a botched experiment or manufactured as purposefully limited, the meditation and the effort that goes into it shows that they believe otherwise.

[Brian]

Catherine, if you re-read the Chapter 1 post, you'll see that Unknown points out that Mr. Babani is not "Waking Now." They're related, not the same person. A few commenters have made this mistake, so I wanted to clear this up.

Regarding anonymity, I respect peoples' desires to not reveal their identity over the Internet. Many commenters on blogs and discussion groups use "handles" rather than actual names. I don't do this myself, but I can understand why others want to.

Also want to mention that holy books and holy talks are full of unsubstantiated stories, rumors, and such. I find it interesting that some commenters on this RSSB-related series of posts criticize Waking Now for not documenting the truth of every detail of what he says, while that sort of documentation isn't demanded of religious or spiritual claims.

Waking Now largely describes first person observations and experiences, while religiosity is mostly second or third hand. So I find him more credible in that regard.

[known]

yeah man,
i do know
that when need to piss
i take a piss
Dont you know that?

[tAo]

Jayme, you said:

"Is there a 'practiceless' practice that alleviates this need for membership and teaching?"

-- Yes Jayme, there is indeed a "practiceless practice", one which alleviates all need for 'membership and teaching" and effort. It is commonly referred to as dzogchen, the self-perfected state or instant presence. But it is not a practice. It is practice-less, effortless.

Catherine,

I believe Waking Now was smeone who had visited and has associated and communicated with Babani, and that is how Waking Now learned of the info that he posted on the web some years back, which is the same info that Unknown has now shared with us, that Brian has posted here.

And Brian,

I too find it very odd or perhaps hypocritical that some commenters here have actually fussed about lack of proof or evidence in the RSSB expose info... and yet on the other hand, they believe hook line and sinker and without the slighest question or doubt, every bit of the RS doctrine, theology, belief system, and practice... which btw, is totally unproven and without any demonstrable results, and is based entirely upon mere heresay and blind-faith in some supposed mystics of the past.

This is absolutely aburd that these people who buy into myth and supernaturalism, turn right around and demand more documentation and evidence from someone who was already known to definitely be deeply involved within the RSSB, as well as being someone who has existed and has communicated in very recent time.

Sadly, this just goes to show how incredibly gullible, brainwashed and irrationally biased most of these RS satsangis are. And to me, that shows how unintelligent and ignorant they really are. Its just unbelievable when you think about it.

[Helen]

Hello Catherine

I was intrigued by what you say about the Dogon. However, after a brief research on Wikipedia, I discovered that the idea that the Dogon have advanced astrological knowledge is disputed by other researchers. I am including the webpage for your perusal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon

What I found most interesting was the following:

*Robert Todd Carroll states that a more likely source of the knowledge of the Sirius star system is from contemporary, terrestrial sources who provided information to interested members of the tribes, or confabulation of new myths by credulous and biased Afrocentric scholars....Oberg also points out the number of errors contained in the Dogon myths, including the number of moons possessed by Jupiter, that Saturn was the furthest planet from the sun, and the only planet with rings.*

IE, if there is no evidence to suggest that the Dogon do have superior astroligical knowledge, then all suppositions based on that premise are equally false: hence knowledge cannot be encoded in one's DNA.

I don't actually know which researcher has got it right. What I would observe, however, is that all knowledge is subject to current agendas, including our own.

For Brian, I would like to reccomend a book on "Selling Spirituality" by Jeremy Carrete and Richard King. It looks at the marketing of religious and spiritual ideas to make people compliant with current political and economic status quos. I found it remarkably insightful, especially on spirituality as a consumer product.

[Bob]

Tao wrote to Brian:

"I too find it very odd or perhaps hypocritical that some commenters here have actually fussed about lack of proof or evidence in the RSSB expose info... and yet on the other hand, they believe hook line and sinker and without the slighest question or doubt, every bit of the RS doctrine, theology, belief system, and practice... which btw, is totally unproven and without any demonstrable results, and is based entirely upon mere heresay and blind-faith in some supposed mystics of the past."

Tao, could it be that the need for "certainty" centered around the fear of death or life after death (the unknown) makes people accept the unprovable doctrines of Sant Mat blindly - and doing so while living in the delusion that Sant Mat claims are factual - even to the point of calling them a science?

In other words, the fear of living in an uncertain world with an uncertain future keeps folks believing without any regard for reason and logic.

For example, we know that there are some intelligent thinkers within the ranks of the Catholic Church. Yet, they blindly accept the words and dogmas contained within the Nicene Creed written in the 4th century?

Thus, most people will accept most unprovable doctrines in the hope that these beliefs will ultimately save their soul. That "certainty", even if it is based on the illogical, is better (even if it's self-delusional)than living an anxiety-filled existence.

[Robert Paul Howard]

To all,

FYI: I am not the composer of the letter (@ 7:10 AM) just above.

Robert Paul Howard

[Jayme]

tAo,

I've nearly completed Jeff Foster's book, "Beyond Awakening: The End of the Spiritual Search." I am usually very wary of books others think would be interesting since there usually appear strange ideas that don't quite seem right to me. However, I am glad you recommended this book. It is short, simple, and to the point.

Is dzogchen this?

Thanks.

[manjit]

Dear Jayme,

Dzogchen is actually full of a whole host of complex meditation practices and experiences. Contrary to what some may say.

Treckchod, thogal, dark retreats (lasting for up to 12 years of 'no-practice' in a dark, small room!) etc. Any Dzogchen teacher or master would laugh at the suggestion Dzogchen has no 'practices'.

I suggest, if you are interested, you check it out from other sources on the net.

[Jayme]

Wow!

So, practiceless practice and being here now takes effortless effort. :)

Those who seem to make it sound so simple seem to simply have had the good fortune to be deeply affected by their perception of reality.

So, I should continue my goaless seeking until I've spent my energies in futile pursuit, to finally give up in the rapture that I already am? :)

This is all wonderfully confusing. Thank you Manjit. Your comments do seem consistent with what I was experiencing in Sant Mat meditation apart from all the concepts in the books. That is, a great deal of effort is expended to be effortless and it is at the most unlikely moments when the effort drops away into a simple surrendered peace.

Regards,

[tAo]

Jayme,

You asked: "Is dzogchen this?"

-- No it is not. And I also don't remember recommending that book, unless it was somehow connected with something that Brian had said about that book... but it was not in any relation to dzogchen.

I would not at all suggest approaching dzogchen via books such as the one you mentioned.

If you really wish to understand dzogchen, then I highly recommend that you obtain and study the books from my own dzogchen teacher - Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche - who is probably the most expert and deeply knowledgable dzogchen master alive today.

[tAo]

Bob,

You asked:
"...could it be that the need for "certainty" centered around the fear of death or life after death (the unknown) makes people accept the unprovable doctrines of Sant Mat blindly - and doing so while living in the delusion that Sant Mat claims are factual - even to the point of calling them a science? In other words, the fear of living in an uncertain world with an uncertain future keeps folks believing without any regard for reason and logic."

-- Yes, I suppose it could be that. But the thing is, any and all beliefs are unnecessary. Every instant is a new moment, and every belief is merely a thought which lasts for that one instant and is then gone. So any belief is inherently ephemeral and fails to achieve anything except for that one instant that that thought arises and vanishes. Thus belief, salvation, wishful thinking, hope, etc is all an illusion. Beliefs are all merely thoughts. So it is absurd and unnecessary to believe in anything. Reality is simply whatever it IS, not what anyone thinks or believes or hopes about it.

[Roger]

Tao,

Is there an internet link to Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche?

Thanks,
Roger

[Jayme]

Thank you kindly.

[Sukhbir]

To Brian,Tao, and ex-Satsangis,

What is one question I can ask Baba Gurinder Singh at Satsang that will allow me to show myself and others sitting there that this might not be the real thing?

In case I don't check up with this blog, can you please reply me at [email protected] Thank you.

[tucson]

Ask him, "Do objects exist?" If he gives any answer, you may leave the room.

[Account Deleted]

This Blog title expose part 4,
Everything from top to end was complete bogus.
A very clean incorrect truth,and very big Lie.
As i belong to the family where everyone was there and witnessed all what happened.
And nothing such happened what all this guy is written,i see him either an agra disciple or kirpal disciple,or an uneducated with absolute no knowledge of the reality.
Bibi ralli he talked about her,
A woman who was with bibi ralli at the time till her death,i meet her oftenly,in year atleast 4 times i meet her,and i know every single real truth and detail of bibi ralli,
she knew very much in advance about her death.
All mentions here are a story out of rage,nothing else.
Charan singh maharaji was ill,
he was dissatisfied but not for the reasons mentioned here,
here what ever has mentioned is a clean grey story,completely unreal.

My grandfather friend was there all the time before the death of maharaj charan singh ji,
nothing happened anything as mentioned above.
All bogus written here.

There many many many many santsangis who have seen guru coming at the time of death.
But why will all the world know it.
Now because internet has come people started discussing(mainly they discuss whatever the like,inspite of being it a reality or not)
we have come to know certain things.
In my own family i have seen many intimating about there time and date of death,
and about maharajis arrival at the time of death.
What all i can clearly see is this is a fake blog,
brian is just enjoying to satisfy his ego,
he says dont lecture me about meditation and humanity services,
but infact brian needs a strong dose of meditation,santmat and humanity services.
If at all he has by mistake or by chance given 35 years(as per he says)to RSSB,
i challange he is a fake person from the beginning.To all other fellow bloggers,
how can you believe a dumb man like brain who followed a path for 35 years and turned out to be such a bad critics,
atleast for humanity sake or if at all his upbringing was with high moral values,this is what gave return back to the faith he trusted for 35 years..
For me brian is a dumb guy,
who took 35 years to understand,and his time period itself says that years werent spent according to the spirituality,
if it would have been accordingly,then he would definitely have progressed in his faith,
Brain buddy your just unlucky i have seen many many many satsangis doing good in faith,
in meditation.
now when you havent able to see what you were wanting to,you turn your face towards science.
you are a two faced person.
whom no one can trust.

And i have all proofs dear.Come india i will make you meet all the close circle satsangis who are REAL SATSANGIS,talking to them all your illusion will vanish.

but for that you need to be lucky.

writing is good.
but writing anything without a truth is really a sin , bad thing buddy.

You need to grown up brain.
What you did in those 35 years i do not know,
but by seeing this blog i can imagine how you wasted those 35 years in return which actually werent able to show you or give you things you were looking for.
Do not worry there so many fellow friends like you,
even my own uncle belongs to your group,
has been in santmat from past 50 years,
was active local secretary for 25 years,
though now he has left everything,but that is his problem,his situation,his inability,
why should one blame the path.

Anyways.Keep enjoying wasting your time in name of humanity services :) pity on your poor brain...

Maintain a blog with dignity,
Americans have low moral values,and cheap ethics,
thats what i can see in this bogus blog.
Complete incorrect information.

[Janya Barrish]

Your Friend,

I have just one question to ask you. Is RSSB, Mr.Saligram's and Mr. Sawan Singh's RSSB Religion/Cult/Surat Shabd Yog, the path of Radha Saomi, the same as that of Shiv Dayal's? Do the Masters of RSSB maintain the same practices and morality as Mr. Shiv Dayal, or is there a moral difference?

There is a tradition among some Guru/Master systems where a dying or dead Guru "possesses" some particular Chela, or more importantly the next appointee. I have had this verified by several accounts from people who are familiar with the dark side of Occult practices and systems. In-fact there is a very disturbing account in a book about Mr. Shiv Dalyal, written by his brother I believe, called Jeevan Charitra. The author states that soon after Mr. Shiv Dayal's death, he "possessed", a disciple called Ms. Bukki. He is said to have communicated, answered questions and given direction to several people, including Mr. Saligram using Ms. Bukki's body but with his own voice.

Your friend, most people who come into RSSB, believe it to be a clean and pure system. But, sadly and ironically, a key founder of your system; a system that advocates the eradication of one's Ego, appears to have chosen to not eradicate his own, having developed it to the extent that even after death he was able to use it to "take over" a smitten disciple, using her body to "live on." It is a very sordid account and if it were translated into English, I am sure it would get many potential or existing followers not only upset but frightened.

[Mike Williams]

Good article. This is so typical of
almost all yoga groups.

Same problems, only the names
and faces change. I have seen
this over and over and over.

I honestly can't think of one person
who told me they saw the radiant form
of the master in sant mat, who was not nuts.

[Account Deleted]

Dear Janya
there has been distortion of evidences by Agra followers,
Actually the fact is soami ji maharaj,was not in favour of giving his gaadi to any of agra discipleship,as he very well knew the power actually lies in jaimal singh and he alone will be the successor,but to avoid any dispute and conflicts after his death,he has to choose a successor,but later on everyone has witnessed how they always had dis agreements and disputes among themself,i m talking about agra lineage.
I already said i m connected to very close people around the RSSB group,whether it is Agra,beas or garib das,
i know everything in depth and details.

i myself has seen live what actually a real spiritual follower looks likes behave likes and what actually he is all about.

Shiv dayal ji (soami ji maharaj)has openly said that though i have given gaadis to three different disciples,the main spiritual wealth lies in jaimal singh and the beas will flourish that any other spiritual path in the world.
Lot of misconception is headed regarding RSSB,now it depends on per individual how he look at it and what he recieves.
I even know the reality about Fakir chand also.
But all this discussions are of no use,you know why..everyone has their own versions,
whom do you trust,
if you look at me,
i give open welcome come to india i will show you everything LIVE..
no lie,no manipulated data.
Direct truth.

[Juan]

Your friend,

You said:
..I myself has seen live what actually a real spiritual follower looks likes behave likes and what actually he is all about.

Can you pls. describe in detail?

Thanks

[Peaceseeker]

Your friend,
Is your invitation open to everyone or just Janya?
Im sure there are lots of people on this blog who wud like to see your 'live' evidence.
PS

[Mike Williams]

Your Friend,
Your post was a scam. No such events ever
occurred. You just made them up off the
top of your head.

Which again shows the lack of ethics and decency of Beas based groups.

You are a mole. How many names do you post under ?

[Juan]

I think to see the LIVE evidence is very simple.

All you have to do is to get initiated by Almighty Babaji and go inside where by the grace of Almighty Babaji you will see everything Live inside.

[Brian Hines]

Juan, words are cheap. Every religion has the same words:

Christian: I think to see the LIVE evidence is very simple. All you have to do is to accept Almighty Jesus as the Lord and go inside where by the grace of Almighty Jesus you will see everything Live inside.

Buddhist: I think to see the LIVE evidence is very simple. All you have to do is to accept your own Buddha-nature and go inside where by the grace of Almighty Buddha you will see everything Live inside.

Hindu: I think to see the LIVE evidence is very simple. All you have to do is to accept that Atman is Brahman and go inside where by the grace of Almighty God you will see everything Live inside.

So thanks for sharing another bit of dogma. Just remember that what feels so true for you feels so false to someone with a different belief system.

This understanding undermines dogmatic statements like you made in your comment and inculcates humility: nobody knows; everybody has feelings, wishes, guesses, beliefs.

[Account Deleted]

Mike williams you are big fake person,
i very well know about you.
And stop all the bull shit your spreading out of nothing.
My post were scam prove them,dont bark,prove.
Dont shout your mouth,but prove it first.
I can prove your scam,any one can come to agra or sikanderpur i will prove mike williams is a fake dogmatic person.

[Brian Hines]

Your Friend, here's some advice for you. Comment "conversations" on a blog go better in the same way face to face conversations go better: when you disagree with someone, be specific about what you disagree with them about.

Don't engage in extreme personal insults. That just shows you don't have any good arguments of your own and destroys your credibility. It's OK to say something like, "I think what you say about X is bullshit, and here's why..."

But calling someone a "fake dogmatic person," that says nothing. We all have our firm beliefs. I like certain music, certain food, certain cars. That isn't dogma. It's just what I like. Dogma is when we assert something to be true for everybody, not just for us.

So if you don't want to look like a dogmatic person yourself, present evidence and/or arguments for why what you believe is true. That'll make for a much more interesting comment conversation.

[Mike Williams]

Your Friend,
There is no evidence Swami Ji ever
knew who Jaimal was. His 24th Sikh
unit only passed by Agra 3 times.

Jaimal attended Salig Ram's satsangs
and adopted his new Radhasoami Faith.

Salig Ram is the founder of Radhasoami Faith.

I have heard Gurinder himself say
Salig Ram was Param Sant

Beas admits all the Agra lineage were
genuine masters.

[Roger]

Finally, Chapter 4 has replaced the $4.5 million house. God is Great!!!

[tAo]

Beas Boxing Babas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lletEcUT2H4

[Janya Barrish]

Yes Roger, GOD indeed is great and is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient.

Feel free to call the Great One anything because:

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

[Mike Williams]

Hi Tao,
I actually considered seriously putting
on my website the evolution of ape to man,
with the final photo being Rajinder,
right after Al Capone and Willie Sutton.

Look at him and you will know why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EZXNJ9eaQ8&feature=related

[tucson]

Hi Mike Williams,

You said that Beas admits all the Agra lineage were genuine masters.

This is of interest to me as a curiosity because as a former Beas devotee I never heard any such referrence to Agra. It seemed to me to be a taboo subject. I am sure Professor Bhatnagar, in a guest house discussion with foreigners at the Beas Dera, would have shut me down with a cutting remark if I had raised the issue, Bhatnagar being of a notably sweet and patient disposition...not!

This is not to challenge your contention. I am just curious if there is doumentation of Beas acknowledging the Agra masters as genuine.

It is also interesting that there are no publicized photos of Jaimal even though I was told there are some in the hands of a select few. This has always seemed odd to me, maybe even suspicious. Do you know anything about this?

[Juan]

I think to see Live Evidence, it is must to see Live Show, and to conduct Live Show a Living Master is a Must, and neither Hindus nor Buddhas and Christians are having Living Masters.

[Janya Barrish]

Hindus don't have living masters? HA HA. Buddhists don't? HA HA HA, what/Who do you think the Dalai Lama is? Christians don't? They have the most high Living master. YA YA YA.

Ok, whatever floats your boat.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Tucson,

Jaimal initiated under council authority of Misra.
Misra (w/ Chachaji and Sudarshan) were excommmunicating Jaimal
just 3 days before he died, for posing as a Guru. The Coucil logs
exist to this day. Salig Ram had thrown Jaimal out
of his satsang for his misbehaviour of living with two
extremely young girls down the street from his satsang
and posing as a Guru.

Jaimal was a real flake. Everyone rejected him.

Sawan initiated under the last two council Gurus. It was
around 1918 Sawan declared himself a master.

But, Sawan would go sit at the feet of the last Agra Guru
Babuji, for 2 weeks at a time, on the ground in front
of him, with his other disciples and ask questions.

Beas was using Agra books into the 1930's and Beas records
Salig Ram and Misra books being sent by Sawan to the Brocks
in the USA at this time.

Beas books mention all Agra Gurus at one point or another
calling them Masters and Sat Gurus. Even Chachaji and
Sudarshan are considered Sat Gurus by Beas in their
books and Sawan bowed down to both of them. Even called
Sudarshan Radhasoami himself.

It is one of the great historical scandals in religious history
that Beas has left the founder of Radhasoami Faith out of
their lineage. That would be like leaving Jesus out of
Christianity. Certain Western historians such as Juergensmeyer
and Lane completely left this out of their books.

There are 2 known photographs of Jaimal. All photos on the
internet are bogus. Jaimal was short and stocky.

Beas does not show the Jaimal photos because he was never considered
a Guru and was scandal ridden. Jaimal admitted in a letter
to Misra and Chachaji he "was not a sant". The letter still exists.

Chachaji forced Sawan to be the administrator at Beas after
Jaimal's death. Chachaji was the President of the Council at
that time. Beas does not tell people this.

See page 4 of RS Beas Secret History for the devestating facts about
Jaimal.

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

[tucson]

Thanks Mike,

What a convoluted mess RS politics is, certainly not the type of thing you would expect from param sant sat gurus, or maybe it is. What do I know what unseen wisdom lies in their seeming corruption? But it sure sounds like politics as usual as it manifests anywhere humans seek personal advancement and power.

For decades I had the blinders on regarding this stuff. Now, it would be inconceivable for me to consider a return to this sordid path and the commensurate rennet obsession. How can anyone?

However, I still know people who have full devotion and faith in the power and glory of one Gurinder Singh Dhillon even though I have refered them to your Secret History site and others. One even knows David Lane and went to David's bodysurfing competition. Did you know Lane won the age 55 and over division of the World Bodysurfing Championships in Oceanside, CA this year? Bodysurfing beats simran and bhajan every time. Takes you right into the lap of God.

[Janya Barrish]

Author Lalla Pratap Singh Seth (Shiv Dayal Swamiji's youngest brother. He had one other brother)emphatically says in the book he authored called Jeevan Charitr
Swamiji Maharaj, that Swamiji Maharaj had no Guru. He obtained no lectures - training (updesh) about Parmathma (GOD etc.)from anyone. However RSSB says that he was initiated by Tulsi Das when he was 6 years old! Sant Kabir Das as well as TulsiDas were initiated by Swami Ramanand, a Vaishnava sant. Ramananda believed that the human soul is distinct from the Supreme Spirit and retains its identity and separate consciousness. (Wiki)

Also Shiv Dayal ji says that his teachings were of the nameless true one. Radha-Saomi teachings are of the Lord of the Soul.(My note: Man is essentially three membered with a body, soul, spirit). Why would he make this distinction on his deathbed if it was not important? Is there truly some hidden difference between the two? Having said this, does it really matter, if in the end a Ms.Bukki type occurrence takes place? But then again, maybe she got possessed by some other devil entity pretending to be Shiv Dayal? Or was this truly a mental health issue for her? Then there are the accounts by Maheshwari on the Agra books link (Mike's RSSB history pages)about "possessions" of various people and how only by Guru's pics and Naam were they able to become "other entity" free. Come to my aid Occam's razor! It was he.

And personally, I am intrigued as to why after decades, I have been brought back here to ponder RSSB history, especially since I had thought it completely irrelevant at initiation.

[Janya Barrish]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the History pages and the links therein, including the Agra Book link which has kept me busy reading for hours.

Maya and Maya. But its ok to study and dissect Maya, what else can we do?

[Account Deleted]

Let us put some light on fake statements of MIKE WILLIAMS ONCE AGAIN>

1.Jaimal initiated under council authority of Misra.
Misra (w/ Chachaji and Sudarshan) were excommmunicating Jaimal
just 3 days before he died, for posing as a Guru. The Coucil logs
exist to this day. Salig Ram had thrown Jaimal out
of his satsang for his misbehaviour of living with two
extremely young girls down the street from his satsang
and posing as a Guru.

A= What an rubbish complete incorrect infromation by agra funded mike williams,
it was actually saligram the molestor,who has a bad character,thats the reason soami ji never wanted him to lead,but he knew if he doesnt give rights to continue his lineage in agra this crook saligram will create more havoc.so he forcibly gave saligram the lienage.

2.Jaimal was a real flake. Everyone rejected him.

A= Infact everyone loved and respected jaimal singh ji after soami ji maharaj he was the most respected person and loved which actually soami ji family didng liked it.SO what mike williams stats here is a fake statment again.

3.Sawan initiated under the last two council Gurus. It was
around 1918 Sawan declared himself a master.

A=Completelty incorrect,sawan singh baba ji never declared any such.

4.But, Sawan would go sit at the feet of the last Agra Guru
Babuji, for 2 weeks at a time, on the ground in front
of him, with his other disciples and ask questions.
A=Sawan singh ji never asked any questions.

5.Beas was using Agra books into the 1930's and Beas records
Salig Ram and Misra books being sent by Sawan to the Brocks
in the USA at this time.

Beas books mention all Agra Gurus at one point or another
calling them Masters and Sat Gurus. Even Chachaji and
Sudarshan are considered Sat Gurus by Beas in their
books and Sawan bowed down to both of them. Even called
Sudarshan Radhasoami himself.

A= yes sawan singh baba ji regarded and rspected agra masters for SOAMI JI maharaj,he anyhow never disrespected anyone,in his life,he was a kind and soft speaking person.BEcause of soami ji maharaj all RS Masters still have soft corner for AGRA masters,But Agra masters are egostic and are very much jealous of popularity of BEAS masters.

6.It is one of the great historical scandals in religious history
that Beas has left the founder of Radhasoami Faith out of
their lineage. That would be like leaving Jesus out of
Christianity. Certain Western historians such as Juergensmeyer
and Lane completely left this out of their books.
A= A very stupid allegation from MIKE WILLIAMS once again,
There is still evidence and proofs of letters by SOAMI ji maharaj available that the actual perfect livig master is JAIMAL SINGH and he will enherit true spiritual wealth among the others.MIKE WILLIAMS is upto something with nothing in his hands.
Anyways his beas history has been read by millions and rejected by millions.

7.There are 2 known photographs of Jaimal. All photos on the
internet are bogus. Jaimal was short and stocky.

Beas does not show the Jaimal photos because he was never considered
a Guru and was scandal ridden. Jaimal admitted in a letter
to Misra and Chachaji he "was not a sant". The letter still exists.

A=what a stupidity,BEAS always considered JAIMAL SINGH JI THE PARAM SANTH along with SOAMI JI MAHARAJ,who was always fond of jaimal singh ji,though they deny that jaimal hardly met soami ji,this is a propoganda by beas lienage who are jealous of beas popularity,but actual facts with evidences are avaialble that soami ji was very fond of jaimal singh ji,and its because of jaimal singh ji order they have not put any picture of him anywhere,
because jaimal singh just to choose a name of path choosen the name RADHASOAMI,
where as soami ji said its your wish jaimal,
you can keep anyname you like,
but my desh is anami desh,i would like to call it anami,
you can keep whatever name seems suitable for you.so the name RADHASOAMI Was choosen,
they also say the name radha soami signifies,radha soami jis wife name and soami ji name himself,
And BEAS masters respect and regard JAIMAL SINGH Ji as Perfect living master,thats the reason it is called DERA BABA JAIMAL SINGH JI.
MIKE bring true facts not rubbish manipulated records it will give you nothing neither get you anywhere.

8.Chachaji forced Sawan to be the administrator at Beas after
Jaimal's death. Chachaji was the President of the Council at
that time. Beas does not tell people this.

See page 4 of RS Beas Secret History for the devestating facts about
Jaimal.

A-again a stupid allegation,chachi never forced,she requested sawan singh baba ji,but that was pre decided by jaimal sigh baba ji,that sawan singh baba ji would lead the linage of beas after him,its just AGRA jealous peeople are trying to highlight there greatness just to show everyone that actually AGRA MASTERS AND LINEAGE is grear,which actually is not,
SOAMI JI clearly said that the true spiritual wealth belongs to JAIMAL SINGH BABA JI ALONE>

[Account Deleted]

MIKE WILLIAMS THE FAKE WRITER
I challange you to show me that chahchi jis LETTER,
I can tell you is it a true letter by chachi ji or a saligram crooks stunt.

And if you want any proofs and evidence from my side.
MOST welcome to india,
Place any place of your choice.

[Mike Williams]

Your Friend,
Chachaji was a he, not a she, as you state.

If you do not believe Salig Ram was a
Param Sant and founder of your faith
its impossible to be a Radhasoami.

Your peoples historical conception is so messed up you are critisizing your own founder. You don't even know who the Founder was.

If you want to critisize Salig Ram, that
would make you an exsatsangi.

Neither Beas, nor Agra would agree with
anything you are saying.

[Peaceseeker]

Janya, you should try and enjoy it aswell !!!!
PS

[Janya Barrish]

Peaceseeker - What are you trying to get me to enjoy? Ignorance? or are you referring to something else? Thank you.

[Janya Barrish]

Actually this is where I wished for this to be posted, in the critique thread. Thank you.

Reading further into the Agra books link in Secret History pages, my decades old antipathy to the use and overuse of the word "Surat" and "Current" in the RSSB/Sant Math literature has resurfaced. In my opinion the cosmogony would be far more effective and efficient, modern and non-sectarian if these traditional, loaded words were dropped and modern ones used instead. For example, " (Directed/directional/self motivated) surge of energy" or something similar could be used instead of "current". Even the sporadically used RSSB pharase "audible life stream" is less irritating and better describes the phenomenon. Radha -Soami as well as the other names of "being plus location" combos could likewise be described more elegantly and in universal terms so that non-Northern Indian audiences would be better served, without the unneccessary sectarian exclusivity, confusions and mystique.

More importantly, it is very destructive and a real disservice to humanity to fixate on just one fact/attribute of the infinite Absolute Reality, vis.a vis. the assertion that the "Sound Current" is the only way to return to the Nameless-True One. The hearable connection to the Nameless-True One, is only made through one of our sense organs, the ear (inner ear). We have other organs of perception as well, don't we? Imagine telling a newborn that they should blind themselves or cut their noses off for these are not needed; the only sense needed to experience physical reality is the sense of hearing! But the Nameless-True One, is not exclusively sound! This one-sidedness of the Santh Math system as evidenced in the pathological attachment to the sound current appears to be the culprit in that which manifests as Santh Math specific egotism /evil.

[Account Deleted]

Salig ram was not param santh and you are talking about beas would not appreciate it,
even agra people would not appreciate it,
Even Soami ji didnt spoke about it openly,
because of soami ji maharaj and jaimal singh jis orders,no one will openly raise points aganist salig ram,who was actually not an param santh.
Like Mike williams take the liberty to say whatever he wants in his beas history or here in blog
i take liberty to say it,
yes the truth is out mike,
Salig ram was not param santh,
and for your kind information,
RSSB founder is jaimal singh baba ji,
Soami ji order jaimal singh baba ji to go to beas and preach spirituality from there,
He gave all the authority to jaimal singh ji for whatever name you would like to give to the path.
And this jaimal singh ji choose RADHASOAMI,
so the founder is jaimal singh baba ji,in the guidance of SOAMI Ji maharaj.
Now stop false propoganda MIKE.
come out and show your real face.
Enough of HIDE n SEEK.
You will gain nothing out of this.

[Peaceseeker]

Jayna, im not getting you to enjoy anything, im merely suggesting that you enjoy maya in its entirety.

[Janya Barrish]

Dear Your Friend,

Personally I do appreciate your sentiments and your perfect right to defend your faith and the people involved in it. This said, I must tell you that Jaimal Singh Ji did not choose RADHASOAMI as the title -name for his panth. Sir Shiv Dayal's last dying words while he looked at Seth Pratap Singh were:

Maera mat tho Satnam aur Anaami ka Tha, aur Radha Soami Math, Salig Raam ka chalaya hua hai. Eees ko bhi chalnae daena.

Mike didn't say this. Soami Shiv Dayal ji did.

[Janya Barrish]

Thanks Peacemaker! This is good advice. When in Rome do as the Romans do.

[Gaz]

I am with 'Your Friend', Mike Williams's so called secret history is not right. At least critics such as Brian and David Lane have the guts to show their face and not hide.
I'm not against RS critics, just like Brian, I want the truth and have always been a truth seeker.
First of all, Mike Williams makes lots of claims about Kirpal Singh saying x,y,z e.g. about Jaimal Singh, and on the other hand, I have read Mike say in this forum that Kirpal Singh is evil and is the biggest liar, isn't that contradictory? Why he is using Kirpal Singh as source and at the same time calling him a liar? Doesn't take Einstein to figure out that something isn't right.

Also how does Mike know that Jaimal Singh was short and stocky, did he actually see him? I know a sevador who is 106 years old and he got Nam from Jaimal Singh, he described him as pretty tall and not stocky.
Also I know someone's grandfather who used to travel with Jaimal Singh in India, he was a very close companion of his, he still followed the RS faith after Jaimal Singh's death.
Also Mike claims that Dr Johnson's wife was caught having intercourse and Dr Johnson died in a fight? How realistic does that sound? I think in a Yahoo forum, David Lane also questioned the authenticity of such claim and he questioned the authenticity of most of the claims made by Mike.
I know the Indian culture very well, and since Julian Johnson died a very long time ago, anything like that would be severely condoned in India, especially Punjab, no man would ever dare to do that in Punjab. Back then the Indian culture was so strict and still is.

Another point, I think that Rai Saligram was a God orientated soul, but I have heard he used miracles to heal people in hospitals. One of the fundamentals of a true master is NOT to use miracle powers.

Also you say you have heard Gurinder say he would burn all the RS books, so untrue, I have heard so many times Gurinder say please read previous books and may have even recommended some.
Previously you have stated that David Lane saw the radiant form of Charan Singh, and when he questioned the authenticity of it, the radiant form disappeared. I've never read Dr Lane state anything like that.

Another funny part about you is that you state in your Beas Secrets that Dr Lane 'forgot' to incorporate the Beas secrets into his book. Like someone would forget and as mentioned before I have seen him question the authenticity of your findings in the Yahoo forum.

I am a truth seeker, I want to be receptive to true claims, David Lane opens my mind up more than Mike does.
Mike, whether you believe in God or not, lying is deleterious, when judgement day comes, no Doctor will be able to help you, no one will, all these deleterious things will come back at you and you will regret it, and it will be too late to rectify things.
I don't have a problem if you have been totally honest, but from many of the above points, it looks like you have been lying.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Your Friend AKA Gaz

"And this jaimal singh ji choose RADHASOAMI,
so the founder is jaimal singh baba ji,"

Maybe in a parallel universe he was, but not in
this one.

"I know a sevador who is 106 years old and he got Nam from Jaimal Singh"

Jaimal Singh died in 1903. That would be impossible. That alone
tells me you are fabricating your posts.

2012
-106
--------
1906

Secondly, David Lane admitted writing the book
Radhasoami Reality on his club. The book was published under
Juergensmeyer's name. So, he can't say anything about
anyone not using their real name.

"Dr Johnson died in a fight (at Beas)"

Correct. He did. Read the letters between lawyers
on my site regarding the incident. There were sexual
connotations by Beas reps passed down not mentioned in the
letters for obvious reasons that I am privy to.

I knew David Lane long before there were any forums.
If he has ever found anything wrong with what I wrote,
he has never said what it was. And, I am sure if there
had been, he would have said something. My book was
linked on his website shortly after it was written.

All your other points are misquotes. If you misquote
I will not respond. That's getting too flakey when you
misquote as your doing. It just wastes my time."

[Gaz]

Mike,

I am Gaz NOT your friend, you should ask Brian and he will tell you.

You haven't answered everything, you cite Kirpal singh alot in your history, you use him as a source for your findings, and yet you also call him a liar, that alone is enough to know that you're lying.

'I knew David Lane long before there were any forums, if he has ever found anything wrong with what I wrote, he has never said what it was. And, I am sure if there had been, he would have said something'.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radhasoamistudies/message/198339

[Account Deleted]

Mike you are unable to prove any of your points and allegations buddy.
A brotherly advice to you,do not do all this,
this will get you no where,i repeated this so many times.
With your false incorrect distorted statements no one will believe it,
And ok as per you johnson died in a fight or some ABC reason or some sexual thing is involved in it,
i just ask you one Question?
What is the role of Master of beas in it?
why are you dragging Masters of Beas only,
where there are many other official branches and many unofficial branches with name radhasoami,
why no one points at them,
SIMPLE REASONS,
because
RSSB is the single most spiritual organisation with so much of spiritual wealth and popularity that no other spiritual organisation has in this world.
Agra masters are always jealous of BEAS popularity,
And Saligram is not the one who started RADHASOAMI path neither the name choosen by him,
It was only choosen by Jaimal singh baba ji,
You are trying to just play around with your own words,
I bought the book radhaosoami reality and read it,
found it quite boring,
waste my money on it,
And mike whether you believe it or not,
JAIMAL singh ji was loved liked admired by SOAMI JI and all the spiritual wealth has been transferred to JAIMAL singh ji by SOAMI Ji maharaj.

And you are the master of Misquotes and Misinformations Mike not me.

I m not posting here because i like RSSB or i follow RSSB,
i m posting here because of your misquotes,incorrect information and false allegations.

I know all details in depth history of AGRA and BEAS.
you do not know anything,just heared stories and false propaganda.
Till date in history BEAS masters neither their sewadars or any other connected to them spreaded false propaganda aganist anyone or did they said bad aganist anyone.
ALL the other insititutes spoke ill and aganist RSSB because of their popularity.
And ofcourse also because all these allegations and false infromation do not effect the value and popularity of RSSB :)
and that amuse them a lot.

[Janya Barrish]

Your Friend,

Why can't you understand what Shiv Dayal Soami was saying on his deathbed? Can you not read?

Sir Shiv Dayal's last dying words while he looked at Seth Pratap Singh were:

Maera mat tho Satnam aur Anaami ka Tha, aur Radha Soami Math, Salig Raam ka chalaya hua hai. Eees ko bhi chalnae daena.

Loose translation
My path was that of Satnam and Anaami and Radha Soami Math,is that of Salig Ram, it is being promoted by, run by, operated by Salig Ram. Let this continue as well.

And Your Friend, when you claim that Salig Ram was not a Param Santh, was a molester, a crook and that Shiv Dayal Soami knew about this, yet still allowed Salig Ram to continue with Radha Soami, what does this say about the founder, Shiv Dayal ji himself?

[Janya Barrish]

Your friend,

Would you also be reference the materials that make you believe that Rai Saligram was not a Param Santh, was a molester, a crook, a healer and everything else you said about him that makes him look bad? What evidence do YOU have in making these claims?

[Janya Barrish]

Your Friend, Gaz

Here are some more reasons why Jaimal is not the creator of Radha Soami panth, the entire system as well as the title itself. I am certain many other reasons and evidence that support this view; that Jaimal Singh Baba was NOT the creator of the Radhasoami can be located.

(1) The headquarters of the Radhasoami Faith is located at Soami Bagh in Agra. If he had created it, the headquarters would be in Beas, don't you agree?

(2) Soon after Shiv Dayal ji's death in 1878, his/the primary satsang splintered into many groups centered around different personalities, such as his wife Narayani Devi (called Radhaji), Rai Saligram (called Huzur Maharaj), Sanmukh Das, Gharib Das, Partap Singh (Shiv Dayal's younger brother) and Baba Jaimal Singh. This splintering off helped in spreading the teaching of Radha Soami although with varied interpretations.

Ref: Wikipedia

[Peaceseeker]

Janya, there is ONLY Rome.
Your earnestly peacemaker

[Gaz]

Sorry, Janya, what has that got to do with me?

[Janya Barrish]

Ya Peacemaker? Tell me more about ROME. Giggle, Giggle. Back to U G's Calamity.

[Gaz]

Brian, why hasn't my comment directed to Mike been published yet?

[Note: Gaz, because it went into the TypePad spam filter for some reason. I just found and published it. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I check the spam filter regularly, but not daily. -- Blogger Brian]

[Gaz]

No problem Brian, thanks for publishing my comment.

[Janya Barrish]

Gaz - As long as you are not Your Friend, then my post is not directed at you. I am sorry.

[Mike Williams]

David Lane has never mentioned one thing wrong with my history.

That's because there isn't anything
wrong.

To Janya,
Wikapedia is comical. Radhaji and Salig Ram
were left successors. Sunmukh Das was
left in charge of sadhus. Jaimal's
name was never mentioned and Chachaji
was not mentioned in Swami ji's will
except as owner of Soami Bagh.

Chachaji was the one who wrote down
Swami Ji's will as he spoke it to
the crowds.

Gharib Das was not mentioned, he was
a blind helpless sadhu with very few followers.

[Mike Williams]

"And Saligram is not the one who started RADHASOAMI path neither the name choosen by him,"

What in the world are you smoking ???

Kirpal was trashed by David Lane and Mike Williams. David Lane wrote Radhasoami
Tradition. Mike Williams added some things
Lane was not aware of and finshed the job
on Kirpal with RS Beas Secret History.

Kirpal went down as a stone cold liar
as the quotes in Secret History prove.

[Janya Barrish]

Hi Mike :)

. . . in that case Wikipedia needs to be corrected. I sometimes go and discuss stuff on their talk pages. Certainly Wikipedia can be biased or outright wrong, unless someone adds or makes corrections.

. .. in India, in the old days, a sadhu coming to one's door was a blessing. One such old and poor sadhu made a prediction to my Mom, that came completely true.

I hope Gharib Das is in a good place, what its only been around a 100 years or so! And here we are in 2012 relating and connecting with these long dead people!

[Mike Williams]

Hi Janya,

Your right about Wikipedia. The religious groups
write their own versions so it
is all propoganda.

Also, the CIA and banks control Wikipedia
in regards to financial information. Its
quite comical at times.

[Janya Barrish]

Yes, I know. Also the generally on some pages the links are set up to promote certain beliefs; the belief propagation algorithm.

[Mike Williams]

Brian, cancel last post and use this instead.

Gaz, do you have cancer ?

[Gaz]

Why are you asking if I have cancer?
Cancer is something very serious and life threatening and to go to that extent shows me that something isn't right in your head. Do you know how much pain and suffering the victim and the families endure?

I clearly just sent a Yahoo link that had David Lane aka neural surfer faulting your findings, can't you read?

[Gaz]

I hope everyone including Satsangis and non satsangis can see who Mike really is here.
He is asking me if I have cancer, its out of context.
If he has some kind of malicious feeling against me, then Mike your time is coming. You will burn in hell along with your false Beas secrets and other extensive lies.

You don't ever do that to anyone, even if you hate them, everyone is human in this world and has a right to enjoy life.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Gaz,
Now I know who you are. By the way, how
many of 'them' are in you ?

David Lane has never found one thing wrong
with my findings and neither has anyone else.

That's because I use hard historical
evidence most of the time to back the facts.
Or, my direct experience.

The old version of Beas history is gone
forever. Even Gurinder admits my facts
are correct, so there is no debate.

Beas history is Gone with the Wind. Up
in smoke. It's been gone for many years now.

It was a scham from the beginning by fake gurus wanting wealth.

They need to destroy their old books. Their
old books are making them look silly in the modern world.

Gaz, its too late, do you understand ?

Everybody knows now. No matter how much
propaganda and no matter how many moles,
its too late. You can't put the Genie
back in the bottle.

Pandora's Box was opened. It can never be closed again.

You are beating a long dead horse.

[Gaz]

But what's cancer got to do with any of this?

[Janya Barrish]

Mike - is there an alternative for Gaz? In terms of healing from the shock? If Gurinderji, the present Guru is exposing the charade, and Gaz is still vested in Beas, would it not be a good thing for him to pay heed to the new beas direction, merely as a step by step/transitional move out and on?

[Gaz]

Janya,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you use Sant Rampal as a source to further diminish RS?
Sant Rampal has been to jail and has also been caught lying extensive times. Not a very credible source.

Also were you there when Soami Ji was dying? Did you hear him say those words? Did you know that Baba Sawan Singh was encouraged by Seth Pratap Singh to start initiating and to take the role as a Guru?
So if those were Soami Ji's last words to Pratap, why would Seth Pratap Singh encourage Sawan Singh to give Nam. Surely, Seth Pratap would divert all the sangat to Rai Saligram.

I am not a 100% RS, I still have my doubts, I attended Gurinders satsang last week, I had a close view and I didn't see any changes in the RS teachings or any faults.
I am a truth seeker.

Also I think it's a bit narrow minded to think that 'what didn't work for me won't work for anyone else'. That is yours and nearly everyone else's attitude.
The path of Sant Mat is like a University course, at the end of the spiritual course one will be spiritually enlightened. Baba Ji even stated in last weeks Satsang that Nam isn't a magic wand. You have to apply yourself and adhere to everything to reach your goal.

[David R]

Of course, it doesn't matter whether you think you have the truth and nothing but the truth, but the reality is that other people have their truths and nothing but their truths, and if you disagree, that is war and murder.

So, i beg to differ with that cult.

[Account Deleted]

Mike williams doesnt understand that he has no true evidence neither he knew any truth about radhasoami history,
he is just struggling with poor infromation and imagination to gain cheap publicity and popularity,
Mike god gave you voice speak,
but god gave you Head,Use it wisely,
come out with true facts,
not lazy sarcastic stories,
At death bed what exactly soami jis said,very few people knows,
but still no one can exactly spell what was actually said,
And yes at the death bed because his relative were with him he was talking to them about whatever path name you want to choose,
but he already discussed it with jaimal singh baba ji,and ordered him to preach it from BEAS,
Actually SOAMI ji wanted that baba jaimal singh ji alone gets the authority to preach,
and even he wanted jaimal singh to stay in AGRA,
but he knew the dark grey shades of salig ram,and his lineage,and today we witnessed SOAMI jis far sighted vision,
Agra gaadi split into multiple groups and they are always disputes and disagreements between agra group themself not to forget they even start physical fights among themself,IS this the sign of PARAM santh,
SOAMI bagh and Dhayal bagh followers are enemy to eachother,
they both always keep disputing with one another,
Is this spirituality,
EVER we heard such things happening else where,

Mike wake up from the dream,and see the reality,
if there would be a single truth in your secret fake history of beas,
there would be decline in RSSB followers,but not threshold increase in the followers,

Truth prevails and truth leads,
however,it sees hard times,but it always come out and shine,

I completely agree with what GAZ said,
RAMPAL is a dacoit a thief,i myself called once to their ashram and told them to bring rampal on phone i have some doubts,
they cut off my phone call and then they never received my call after few days number got disconnected completely.

RAMPAL like thugs play hide and seek,

And you say SALIG RAM to be a param santh,
my dear for your kind information,
according to the order of SOAMI ji,
the 5 names(though it might sound compeletly ordinary to many)where only given secretly by a SATGURU and cannot be said in public,
But one of the book released by AGRA lineage has the 5 names mentioned clearly together in a page.
Now arent they going aganist the will and wish of SOAMI JI the PARAM SANT,by disobeying his orders.

Thats why SOAMI JI knew,
that the true spirituality will be preached by radha soami beas,but not agra.

AGRA master can never dare to come and do satsang in Punjab,
but beas master have come down to agra after a gap of 40 years and done satsang in AGRA,
and everyone in AGRA got stunned to see LAKHS of sangat who came for satsang.

I M not talking about crowd,
i m talking about faith,belief,trust they have in beas Masters.

so MIKE and Barrish
try always to speak truth,you can only manipulate with words and play for sometime,
but not all the time.

[Janya Barrish]

Dear Gaz,

The information I quoted is also referenced in:

Sar Bachan, An abstract of the Teachings of Swamiji Maharaj, the founder of the Radha Swami system of Philosophy and Spiritual Science: THE YOGA OF THE SOUND CURRENT
Radha Soami Satsang Beas, Dera Baba Jaima lSing, BEAS (India), published by The Radha Soami Satsang Beas (Punjab) Printed at Rekha Printers. Ltd. New Delhi 110015

'The text of this book was translated from the original Hindi by Sardar Sewa Singh, B.A. Judge in the Civil Courts of the Punjab (India). Dr. Julian P. Johnson assisted him in this task. The first edition was published by the Beas Satsang under the authority of Huzur Maharaj Sardar Sawan Singh Sahib.'

Page 20 of this book:

Last Commandments of Swamiji Maharaj

Commandment 14
Turning to Lala Partap Singh, He said: "My Mat (ideal or teachings) were of Satnam and Anami, and Radha Swami Mat has been started by Saligram. Let this also go on. Satsang should continue, and Satsang will flourish more than before."

No, I was not there when this occurred. But in order to set the record straight and restore to Rai Saligram, what is rightfully his, this must be told and retold not just by Mike Williams but also by you and me and anyone else who cares about the truth.

I have no problem with any one initiating anyone, as long as they are truthful and up front about everything which Beas has not been.

Santh Math, as practiced in Beas cannot be likened to a University course far from it.

As far as assuming that Santh Math did not work for me you are mistaken. I have a very different but intimate relationship to it, even if not to every detail of the teachings themselves.

In fact, Beas needs to 'fess up' and start anew, both in the history and in giving initiates a clean and clear understanding of what this yoga is about and how it is no different than other yoga's of the same ilk. Don't you think it would be epitome of hypocrisy and outright lying if a restaurant served Tandoori Chicken but denied the use of "chicken"; chicken that is used by other restaurants to make the same recipe?

My suggestion to you is to broaden your outlook, read other materials as well not just RSSB, Santh Math. Read and understand Ved concepts about Manas, Buddhi, Chita, Antakharan - and others as well. You might wish to read the works of Dionysius the Arepogite. You might want to read books on evolution, especially the one recommended by Brian in one of his posts. It was written by RSSB initiates, I believe. Lastly do read Mike Williams Secret History of Beas and follow up on its links. If you do all this with an unbiased mind and as a seeker of truth, I am sure you will benefit.