Chapter 2 of RSSB expose: business practices

Here's the next installment of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas-related material that I'm receiving from my email correspondent, Unknown.

(Previous posts on this topic are here and here.)

As noted previously, this material mostly consists of writings by Waking Now, a senior RSSB functionary who came to have doubts about this Indian guru-centered organization and left it in the early 1990s.

When I read this chapter of the Waking Now compilation being put together by Unknown, I thought of how the Dalai Lama wants the Tibetans in exile to be governed.

Democratically.

About 550 Tibetan political leaders and activists have come from as far away as Canada, Australia and Brussels to discuss the future of the Tibetan movement. Its spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, has long advocated a democratic decision-making process, but Tibetans' reverence for him has inhibited many of them from speaking out in any way that might challenge his authority. "This is the problem with having God as your leader," says Tsering Shakya, a professor of modern Tibetan history at the University of British Columbia.

Interesting, in light of what Waking Now has written, which can be downloaded as a PDF file or read by clicking on the following continuation to this post.
Download Chapter 2-Business Practices PDF

Chapter 2-RSSB Business Practices

A look into the Beas Dera Culture
By Waking Now

I wish to recount an experience for you.

A long time resident of the Dera died last Summer.

She was an Army Officer’s Widow and had no children.  She lived in a house across the Grounds from the Western Guest House and was friendly to some Westerners.

A few years ago, out of the blue, she told me:

“You know, I could be a very rich woman”.

“What do you mean”, I asked.

She said “Many years ago, Maharaj Ji (Charan Singh) asked me to Will my property to the Dera”.  (She had a house which she and her late husband built in the Defense Colony, a good locality of New Delhi.)

She said, I protested and said, “Maharaj Ji, I am still very young”. He disregarded my protest and continued, “and your Will should be witnessed by (naming a Dera inner circle person of the time)”.

(She did as she was asked to do, and remained a privileged inner circle woman during most of Maharaj Ji’s reign.  She told a friend of an occasion when Maharaj Ji told her, “You are spending too much money on yourself, remember it belongs to Dera”.)

She continued:

“When my relatives find out, they will be very unhappy”.

“Why don’t you change your Will”, I said.

“How can I do that, I gave my property to Maharaj Ji”, she said.

Her Will is likely probated by now.

The woman was very dissatisfied in her last years.  Believing the teaching that ‘All Gurus are One’ she had expected that the Successor would respect the privileged position given her by her own Guru [my insert-recurring theme ‘what have you done for me lately’]

“Where can I go now in old age”, she said to a friend.

Can her relatives make a claim that she wrote the Will under extraordinary pressure from the Godman at whose pleasure everyone lives in sight at Dera?

Some of you may guess who I am.  Please use my Yahoo ID in your responses.

Thank you.

(responding to question about previous post)
After learning of the Lady being pressured to Will her property to the Dera, I spoke to a friend of hers.  She told me that she had also heard of this from the Lady.

She said there were two opinions about what Maharaj Ji (Charan Singh) had done.

One, that He had sanctified her husband’s wealth by asking for it and had saved her from going astray in life considering that she was a vivacious and wealthy widow who could have many suitors.

And the other, that he had wanted to clip her wings and pin her down to the Dera so she could add her charm to an inner circle who met him for light entertaining chats.

RSSB-House of Sawan 1

The facts of allotment and refundable deposit are spelled out in the papers the ‘buyers’ sign.  The Dera legal team is careful to get the proper papers.

What is taken away are the rights of tenure and transfer to an heir which are provided by Indian Laws. 

Most people faced with the situation submit as meek followers.  But litigation was started by an heir after his father died in a Dera house.  However, Dera ground and legal forces were very powerful.  Possession, as is said, is 90% of the Law and litigation against Dera cannot be afforded by most people.

Following such episodes, Dera decided in the present administration to no longer accept any money for the allotment of a house, so that the question of legal rights will not arise.

People who settle at the Dera are not aware of the controls they would face after moving there.  I know of an old person who very much regretted selling a flat in a city and moving there.  The person was no longer financially capable of moving back.

My point is that while Beas Dera has the privileges of an Indian town in terms of Government services, it functions as a Principality, House of Sawan, where the Laws of the Land are not fully applicable.

House of Sawan continued

The Sewadars who are able to attract sentimental donations are recognized.

Dera feels that as long as it can be seen to obey the letter of the Law (where did the spirit disappear from the ‘Spiritual” Institution) it can make its different claims.

So, if the solicitation does not appear in the mail or in the propaganda literature from the Ministry of Truth, the Dera does not solicit.  Soliciting from the pulpit or by word of mouth does not count.

The Initiation rituals are free.

But after you come in, you yourself (no pressure, see) realize how beneficial for your spiritual progress Sewa is, and money sewa is specially beneficial (it runs the show for you) and may provide occasions to see your ‘Beloved Lord’ from a closer venue.

If the benefits to the Godman do not come in the form of a paycheck, then the Godman does not take a penny.

He and his family may receive benefits of residences, transportation, vacations from devotees, gifts from devotees, special discounts on purchases from satsangis, free labour, etc. etc. but none of it counts.

It is this type of ‘letter of the law’ approach that underpins the House.

RE: Seva Schedule/Restricted Site Access

This is the property of the Congregation (sangat) Yes?

It is paid for and is being developed by the hard work of members of the Congregation. Yes?

Then why are the members not being allowed to enjoy the property in an Owners way?.

Why such severe restrictions on the Owners?

Either come in and be indoctrinated.

Or

Come in and join the labour force.

Are they really owners or slaves?

(Correspondence)

Well, satsangis behave like good cult members.  Using their own mind would be anathema since for them their mind is the agent of Kal, the Negative power.

I came across the hidden principle of RSB recently in the book, Radhasoami Satsang Beas, Origin and Growth,

(this is the book that Gurinder asked be removed from circulation and, I think, asked that copies in the possession of satsangis be returned.)

which says “It is the basic principle of Sant Mat, and especially of the Radhasoami faith, that the Satguru, being God Incarnate, has absolute authority and power to deal with His Parmarthi (religious) property of every kind in whatever way He likes.  All Bhaints (offerings) made to Him by his followers and all properties inherited by Him from His Satguru become His personal properties, and His power to use such properties is not restricted in any way.”

Then the book goes on to say “But our line of Great Masters….have never put this property to their personal use”, and talks of the formation of a Trust.  How generous of them! And what according to the cult legal minds is “personal use”.  Anyway, I think that some of the cult members are convinced and act as if the properties really belong to the God-incarnate. 

Well, since the “basic principle” of Sant Mat is that…all properties…become His (the God Incarnate’s) personal property” , to use as he likes, aren’t questions about accountability superfluous?  As long as the papers prepared by the cult legal minds are in order for regulatory agencies, the followers can have no complaints because the hidden principle clearly states that the God-Incarnate personally owns it all.

I also realized that Godman and PLM are a down grading of the Head’s declared position since God-Incarnate is the status they hold for themselves.

----------------------------------
Note: The following section was added after the material was first posted, since it primarily relates to RSSB business practices -- rather than the issues discussed in Chapter 3 (the subject of a 1/24/09 post).

Chapter 2B-Business Dealings

This is the last chapter specifically dealing with business, then on to ‘Palace Intrigue’ and the succession/power struggles.  These comments are responses to questions which I don’t have the transcript for, but informative just the same and are a bit out of sequence with sections in the previous chapter.

RSSB Properties:

I think these properties are long term investments to keep the House of Sawan flourishing. The present Ruler’s acute business sense has come in very handy.

In Bombay, he pushed the Branch there to buy a hundred acres in a suburb, and then wanted the property development Sewa carried out expeditiously.  The former Secretary [my insert-Mr. Babani] remained quite irked by these demands.

“Is this Santmat?”, he would say.

Land Gold appreciation is a major component of these long-term investments.  The upkeep problems faced by the local management’s are simply the troubles of carrying an investment along, as well as providing a golden opportunity for the Subjects to acquire merit, until the time is right to sell, subdivide or whatever.

Re: RSSB-House of Sawan 1

The practice, as I understood it, was that Dera priced the different categories of housing on the basis of its out of pocket costs of labour and materials.  This cost was the price the satsangi paid when allotted the house and that became a deposit.

When a house was taken away, which could be after some years, the original deposit was returned. But in the event, I know of cases where sentimental pressure was put by the Officers on the satsangi to donate the deposit.  Due to inflation, that sum did not reflect current value, so the person forced to leave could not use that money to buy property elsewhere.

According to Indian Law, occupants of residential accommodation in which money changed hands, that is, even tenants, had rights of tenure.  Dera ordinarily did not allow rights even to its ‘buyers’. Also Indian Law allowed the right of transfer to an heir.  All transfers had to be approved by the Dera which left the ‘occupants’ at their ‘mercy’.

The residents of Dera do not have normal citizen rights.  For everything they are at the mercy of the Lord so they live in a subdued controlled way.

Dera functions as a Principality not under Indian Laws but in practice because it has Sewadars who place the wishes of the Godman above the requirements of the Laws of the Land and the Godman accepts this attitude.

The basic human rights of free speech, or movement or personal or property security that are granted to the Citizens of India have become subservient to the rules at the Dera.  Also whatever rules there are, are ensured by the Dera’s own Security Sewadars.

At the moment, Dera appears powerful enough to avoid independent oversight.

RS Cult-[my insert-this comment was in response to a naïve statement claiming diffused authority within the cult].

WOW

I do not know how familiar you are with the RSSB culture.

The diffusion of authority from the PLM [Perfect Living Master] to the lower levels has not occurred.  In fact it has been strengthened by placing hand-picked loyal Sewadars (servants) at all centers.  Even the preachers are selected and what they can say in the indoctrination lectures clearly defined.  At intervals, edicts are passed to keep the followers well trained in obedience.

Also the diffusion of authority goes against the fundamental tenet of having God in Human Form as one’s Guru.  Questioning God is akin to losing faith in God.  Imagine the power this gives to the GIHF over his followers.

The Questioning member who wants to keep his self respect has only one choice in this Cult.

Leave.

City Council of Petaluma Gets Hustled  ‘Waking Now’ did not originate this topic, only responded to the original post. A Petaluma city council man openly provided the presentation literature that RSSB gave the council in the process of obtaining  permits for Petaluma which was blatantly deceptive.  RSSB indicated they were a quasi Christian spiritual group and the property would be for agricultural purposes only with a small meeting hall for occasional meetings.  Then of course after the permits were granted, variances were incrementally requested and received with mega natural prepared foods manufacturer and satsangis ‘Amy’s Kitchen’ donated the property and some more to the town to help the process.  I understand the same deceptive presentation techniques were employed by Haynes Park.
The nearby residents and town were entitled to know what the real intention was for the property (involving masses of people), not a bait and switch.

“Deliberate deception and misrepresentation by an individual or organization for gaining approval from public bodies would be considered a serious offense against the public good of a community….”

Comments

[Jayme]

I've taken a little more time to read both chapters 1 and 2. Being a "satsangi," I offer a brief personal perspective. I am not trying to defend the RSSB organization. This is as pointless as defending my own ego. I also think it is silly to defend "God." So why did I get initiated through the RSSB organization? Simply, I was tired of what the world told me I needed, I was broke, and generally unhappy. Having grown up through a host of corrupt tele-evangelists, the common religions always seemed to be more interested in money than anyone's salvation. The idea that God didn't charge for teaching spirituality and you didn't have to be a member of any organization was very appealing for the initiation into Sant Mat. The last thing I wanted was to be "churched." Initiation was like a rite of passage which redirected me to think less of myself. Along with relative ease of access, the minor experiences I've had, drew me to this teaching. Since that time, the attachment to the idea of having to seek something has become loose. The practice is still there but I think it is less encumbered by the thought that I must do or be something. There is greater contentment to simply be in my own skin and consequently everything appears just fine the way it is. Since my initial indoctrination into Sant Mat, it has become clear to me that there are many methods - the simpler one's being most appealing. The whole notion that Sant Mat is something apart from anything else is in fact counter to the teachings of the saints. Any member of the organization has no special value greater than any non-member.

It is interesting that the Dalai Lama would advocate a democratic decision making process. I think that a democratic process is good for a certain social level of complexity, however it would not be advantageous in many cases where special knowledge or skills were required to make a decision relevant to the social group as a whole. This results in smaller subgroups of people who make decisions which impact the entire society. The RSSB organization is one particular model of a social order, with the Master as the primary responsible individual. This can be very good for group cohesion. Unfortunately, it also leads to despotism when bad people get into such lofty postions. Regardless of good or bad, what is good for an organization is not necessarily good for an individual, even if the majority agrees. Additionally, once a majority takes control, there is a tendency to continue accumulating power and squeezing out some very important minority opinions. After the civil war, it took 140+ years before the American public elected a black(ish) president. I'll stop here since this gets more into political debating and history. I don't know about this much anyway. Of course I'm all for democratically defined history. If more Christians believe in creationism than scientists believe in evolution, we should adopt creationism - sorry, I'm biting my tongue for that. What's the three key symbol for tongue biting? :-x ?

:)

Respects,

[Obed]

Dear Jayme,
Very nicely said !
Have a nice weekend
All the best
Obed

[zenjen]

Jayme,

I agree with Obed, well said. I enjoy your comments very much, please keep them coming.

[Gurminder Thind]

Having been a member of RSSB for 30 odd years I am yet to experience any negative side of the groups practices.
As to the suggestion of securing land envestments for future speculation, its an absurd suggestion as to date no RSSB property has ever been developed for monetry gain. I have not seen the Master display any notions of ownership or use of Dera revenue for personal use. It seems to that it makes sense to hace centres all over the world to accommodate the increasing number of Sangat. If it was such bad thing then why do people flock to it in droves. My experience of RSSB is much better than the so called orthodox religions which seem to be squabbling most of the time and are efficient machines for spreading hatred towards people who don't conform. At least RSSB don't threaten people who want to leave.
Thind

[Prakash Vazirani]

Babaji has to spend all the donations for the benefit of sangat within 3 years of receiving the donations or pay the Income Tax and the satguru know very well that more and more people are joining RSSB and hence will need the land to accommodate them hence they are acquiring big big lands throughout the world. As the Kalyug advances more and more people are going to join RSSB, you will see in the future and he will need all this land.He is the Jesus/Eernal father. You can realise it once you practice meditation for at least 2 and a half hour daily without fail for many years that he is GOD.

[Nietzsche]

We should at least establish for a fact that Gurinder used the money from RSSB to fund Religare. He was not rich before he became the guru of RSSB and now he is. So there is no doubt that he used the RSSB money for personal gain. That is a fact. The conclusion is up to you.

[Catherine]

if you meditate for many years Prakash and even for no years, you may also discover that you are GOD.

[Nietzsche]

Wow, so part of what you are saying is that he aquires the land to make it look like he is investing in religious property and that is to avoid income tax? While in fact the ground is not used. That is indeed in accordance with the letter of the law but not with the spirit. Again a proof that the mind control leads astray. You need an open mind to begin to understand ethics. RS BS :)

[tucson]

Well stated Tara.

[Kabir Advani]

@tara-would jus like to give a friendly advise that unless you yourself have gone within and realised that he is fake you should think before talking things about him any guru..would like to share with you a paragraph from sukhmani sahib in which Nanak Sahib cautions us for slandering a saint..
Ashtapadee:
sant kai dookhan aarjaa ghatai.
Slandering the Saints, one's life is cut short.
sant kai dookhan jam tay nahee chhutai.
Slandering the Saints, one shall not escape the Messenger of Death.
sant kai dookhan sukh sabh jaa-ay.
Slandering the Saints, all happiness vanishes.
sant kai dookhan narak meh paa-ay.
Slandering the Saints, one falls into hell.
sant kai dookhan mat ho-ay maleen.
Slandering the Saints, the intellect is polluted.
sant kai dookhan sobhaa tay heen.
Slandering the Saints, one's reputation is lost.
sant kay hatay ka-o rakhai na ko-ay.
One who is cursed by a Saint cannot be saved.
sant kai dookhan thaan bharsat ho-ay.
Slandering the Saints, one's place is defiled.
sant kirpaal kirpaa jay karai.
But if the Compassionate Saint shows His Kindness,
naanak satsang nindak bhee tarai. ||1||
O Nanak, in the Company of the Saints, the slanderer may still be saved. ||1||
sant kay dookhan tay mukh bhavai.
Slandering the Saints, one becomes a wry-faced malcontent.
santan kai dookhan kaag ji-o lavai.
Slandering the Saints, one croaks like a raven.
santan kai dookhan sarap jon paa-ay.
Slandering the Saints, one is reincarnated as a snake.
sant kai dookhan tarigad jon kirmaa-ay.
Slandering the Saints, one is reincarnated as a wiggling worm.
santan kai dookhan tarisnaa meh jalai.
Slandering the Saints, one burns in the fire of desire.
sant kai dookhan sabh ko chhalai.
Slandering the Saints, one tries to deceive everyone.
sant kai dookhan tayj sabh jaa-ay.
Slandering the Saints, all one's influence vanishes.
sant kai dookhan neech neechaa-ay.
Slandering the Saints, one becomes the lowest of the low.
sant dokhee kaa thaa-o ko naahi.
For the slanderer of the Saint, there is no place of rest.
naanak sant bhaavai taa o-ay bhee gat paahi. ||2||
O Nanak, if it pleases the Saint, even then, he may be saved. ||2||
sant kaa nindak mahaa attaa-ee.
The slanderer of the Saint is the worst evil-doer.
sant kaa nindak khin tikan na paa-ee.
The slanderer of the Saint has not even a moment's rest.
sant kaa nindak mahaa hati-aaraa.
The slanderer of the Saint is a brutal butcher.
sant kaa nindak parmaysur maaraa.
The slanderer of the Saint is cursed by the Transcendent Lord.
sant kaa nindak raaj tay heen.
The slanderer of the Saint has no kingdom.
sant kaa nindak dukhee-aa ar deen.
The slanderer of the Saint becomes miserable and poor.
sant kay nindak ka-o sarab rog.
The slanderer of the Saint contracts all diseases.
sant kay nindak ka-o sadaa bijog.
The slanderer of the Saint is forever separated.
sant kee nindaa dokh meh dokh.
To slander a Saint is the worst sin of sins.
naanak sant bhaavai taa us kaa bhee ho-ay mokh. ||3||
O Nanak, if it pleases the Saint, then even this one may be liberated. ||3||
sant kaa dokhee sadaa apvit.
The slanderer of the Saint is forever impure.
sant kaa dokhee kisai kaa nahee mit.
The slanderer of the Saint is nobody's friend.
sant kay dokhee ka-o daan laagai.
The slanderer of the Saint shall be punished.
sant kay dokhee ka-o sabh ti-aagai.
The slanderer of the Saint is abandoned by all.
sant kaa dokhee mahaa ahaNkaaree.
The slanderer of the Saint is totally egocentric.
sant kaa dokhee sadaa bikaaree.
The slanderer of the Saint is forever corrupt.
sant kaa dokhee janmai marai.
The slanderer of the Saint must endure birth and death.
sant kee dookhnaa sukh tay tarai.
The slanderer of the Saint is devoid of peace.
sant kay dokhee ka-o naahee thaa-o.
The slanderer of the Saint has no place of rest.
naanak sant bhaavai taa la-ay milaa-ay. ||4||
O Nanak, if it pleases the Saint, then even such a one may merge in union. ||4||
sant kaa dokhee aDh beech tay tootai.
The slanderer of the Saint breaks down mid-way.
sant kaa dokhee kitai kaaj na pahoochai.
The slanderer of the Saint cannot accomplish his tasks.
sant kay dokhee ka-o udi-aan bharmaa-ee-ai.
The slanderer of the Saint wanders in the wilderness.
sant kaa dokhee ujharh paa-ee-ai.
The slanderer of the Saint is misled into desolation.
sant kaa dokhee antar tay thothaa.
The slanderer of the Saint is empty inside,
ji-o saas binaa mirtak kee lothaa.
like the corpse of a dead man, without the breath of life.
sant kay dokhee kee jarh kichh naahi.
The slanderer of the Saint has no heritage at all.
aapan beej aapay hee khaahi.
He himself must eat what he has planted.
sant kay dokhee ka-o avar na raakhanhaar.
The slanderer of the Saint cannot be saved by anyone else.
naanak sant bhaavai taa la-ay ubaar. ||5||
O Nanak, if it pleases the Saint, then even he may be saved. ||5||
sant kaa dokhee i-o billaa-ay.
The slanderer of the Saint bewails like this
ji-o jal bihoon machhulee tarhafrhaa-ay.
- like a fish, out of water, writhing in agony.
sant kaa dokhee bhookhaa nahee raajai.
The slanderer of the Saint is hungry and is never satisfied,
ji-o paavak eeDhan nahee Dharaapai.
as fire is not satisfied by fuel.
sant kaa dokhee chhutai ikaylaa.
The slanderer of the Saint is left all alone,
ji-o boo-aarh til khayt maahi duhaylaa.
like the miserable barren sesame stalk abandoned in the field.
sant kaa dokhee Dharam tay rahat.
The slanderer of the Saint is devoid of faith.
sant kaa dokhee sad mithi-aa kahat.
The slanderer of the Saint constantly lies.
kirat nindak kaa Dhur hee pa-i-aa.
The fate of the slanderer is pre-ordained from the very beginning of time.
naanak jo tis bhaavai so-ee thi-aa. ||6||
O Nanak, whatever pleases God's Will comes to pass. ||6||
sant kaa dokhee bigarh roop ho-ay jaa-ay.
The slanderer of the Saint becomes deformed.
sant kay dokhee ka-o dargeh milai sajaa-ay.
The slanderer of the Saint receives his punishment in the Court of the Lord.
sant kaa dokhee sadaa sahkaa-ee-ai.
The slanderer of the Saint is eternally in limbo.
sant kaa dokhee na marai na jeevaa-ee-ai.
He does not die, but he does not live either.
sant kay dokhee kee pujai na aasaa.
The hopes of the slanderer of the Saint are not fulfilled.
sant kaa dokhee uth chalai niraasaa.
The slanderer of the Saint departs disappointed.
sant kai dokh na taristai ko-ay.
Slandering the Saint, no one attains satisfaction.
jaisaa bhaavai taisaa ko-ee ho-ay.
As it pleases the Lord, so do people become;
pa-i-aa kirat na maytai ko-ay.
no one can erase their past actions.
naanak jaanai sachaa so-ay. ||7||
O Nanak, the True Lord alone knows all. ||7||

So all that im trying to tell u is unless u go within and realise hes fake you should be careful before talkin things about him..Hope you take it in a positive way..Have a nice day!

[Blogger Brian]

Kabir, I'd like to suggest an experiment so you can see if you are right about the ill effects of slandering the guru.

Every day, when you wake up in the morning, say:

Fuck the guru.
Fuck the saints.
Fuck god.
Fuck holy books.

(note: just say this; don't do it literally -- you could hurt yourself, particularly with a holy book)

I think you'll find that nothing will happen to you. (I sure have.) This will help you liberate your mind from false beliefs.

Likewise, see what happens if you slander the laws of nature. For example, say "fuck gravity, fuck electromagnetism." Do you find yourself floating in the air? Do your electric gadgets stop working?

Reality doesn't care what we say to it. If you believe that the "True Lord" punishes the slanderers of the Saints, you're like a fundamentalist Muslim who gets all worked up over somebody drawing a cartoon of Muhammed.

Relax. And be wary of preachiness. Often the self-righteous find that reality has a way of puncturing holier than thou pretensions.

[Kabir Advani]

@Brian and Tara-i sympathise with the level of maturity that you have got in this life and it seems to me by no chance can you realise god in this life or get even close to there because it all depends upon the amount of trust you have in your guru..would like to remind you about the incident of of Saint Kabir in which he took a bottle of alcohol in his hand and went to a prostitutes house and told his followers to wait outside.All his followers left thinking that he is a fake guru except for one..When Kabir Sahib came out he saw only one devotee standing and said it was a test for his devotees in which only one devotee passed and he was blessed with immense spiritual wealth bcoz he trusted his guru more than his own eyes..so i am again telling that i am not saying that you should have blind faith but unless you have gone within and are absolutely sure that he is fake you are free to talk things about him..and blogger brian i really sympathise with with the level of maturity god has given you..i agree with you by saying fuck god and fuck saints i agree nothing will happen to you right now just like by doing any other bad deeds anything may not happen to you right now but you will have to pay for it one day..if you think that by doing wrong you can get away with it you are highly mistaken my friend!!

[Roger]

Tara,

"Gurinder is a fake."

-- LOL, well at least you didn't use the f___ word.

[Juan]

Gurinder is a fake.How about the kind and soft hearted Huzur Maharaj Charan Singhji?

[Mungos]

Kabir, I'd like to suggest an experiment so you can see if you are right about the ill effects of slandering the guru.

Every day, when you wake up in the morning, say:

Fuck the guru.
Fuck the saints.
Fuck god.
Fuck holy books.

(note: just say this; don't do it literally -- you could hurt yourself, particularly with a holy book)

I think you'll find that nothing will happen to you. (I sure have.) This will help you liberate your mind from false beliefs.

Likewise, see what happens if you slander the laws of nature. For example, say "fuck gravity, fuck electromagnetism." Do you find yourself floating in the air? Do your electric gadgets stop working?

Reality doesn't care what we say to it. If you believe that the "True Lord" punishes the slanderers of the Saints, you're like a fundamentalist Muslim who gets all worked up over somebody drawing a cartoon of Muhammed.

Relax. And be wary of preachiness. Often the self-righteous find that reality has a way of puncturing holier than thou pretensions.

by Mungos to Bt
rian: Ha ha ha ha Brian you hit me with what i think. This was very well said.
Why would God punish just because of discussion. I always think that man himself is a punisher, than in deep shit he goes and cries to God and when he is at somekind of a peace he goes (man) and shit allover again.

[Kabir Advani]

@,Brian and Mungos all three of u by saying that nothing happends by slandering saints you are simply trying to say that Guru Nanak Sahib who said this was also Fake and there is no truth in the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib..maybe you feel that your thinking is far more superior than Nanak Sahib himself.. @Tara your joke that those people ran away to find a woman wasnt even funny!!And by not beleiving what Nanak Sahib said about slandering and Kabir Sahibs story you are simply trying to say that they were also fake..Tara i seem is the most active blogger who is slandering the Radhasoami Guru possibly because she has had some personal differences with the Organisation or else she is an agent of some other guru who has a problem with the speed with which way the Radhasoami Faith is spreading..Tara all of us are waiting for an explanation..

[Mungos]

Yo Kabir, can i please ask you something. please do not put words into my mouth cause i never even said that any guru is fake.Calm down and do not take everything personal.

[Nietzsche]

If you take the example of Nanak that went to the public woman that the blogger Kabir mentioned than what do you learn? Clearly Nanak did not want blind followers. He wanted his people to think about the morality of his action before they would follow him. If you translate that to the actions of Gurinder than I think that he would not want his people to go into business like he does. So why are they participating in Religare?
However there is another difference in that Nanak only went once to the public woman while Gurinder gathers dirt all his life. I guess we are all waiting on the punchline of this sad little joke here but I'm afraid it will never come...

[Kabir Advani]

@Mongos its feels good to hear that you that you dont think any guru is fake..fine i wont take your comment personally..have a nice day!

@Tara Firstly would like to correct myself about that story when i confirmed it wasnt Kabir Sahib but Hazrat Nizamuddin Aulia..And im not crazy to tell you my spiritual experiences on this web site..you may criticize RSSB about this also but we are not suppopsed to disclose our spiritual experinces in public..the amount of trust one should have in his guru should be unshakable or else one achieves nothing as given in Hazrat Nizamuddins story..there must be a defeciency in your faith in the guru because of which you have achieved nothing inspite of years of meditation..even though this is my personal opinion so i think if you wanna achieve anything in your spiritual life you cant achieve it by slandering gurus on a public website..

[Mungos]

Tara: Reply - Hey, how much do you know about me ? How do you know how much or how little I meditated ? You know absolutely nothing about me ! Anyway, IMO, the RS meditation technique is a fruitless chase.

Even though i like you Tara i must correct you here. You are doing the sane mistake as Kabir with previous statemen with 'us waiting for answer'

For you is maybe fruitless chase but you cannot say for anybody else even it cannot be said in general cause one can only speak for himself.And please this is not attack on you just small correction. Peace inna the ghetto

[Mungos]

Oh yes sorry Tara my mistake i am non english speaker and reader and sometimes some thing slips out. Again sorry for that and now i am even more happy cause i am sick of some people speaks for others also.Be well,Mungos

[Kabir Advani]

@Tara-i think it is pointless arguing with you but if u think the RS guru is untrue then why dont you look out foe some other guru instead whom you think is true instead of pointlessly criticising some guru withou knowing any facts on this website day and night..

[Nietzsche]

@Kabir Why lying. It is clear Tara know a lot of facts. If you have different facts please present them. Most of us are smart enough to understand that a debate has two sides but now you are going to the level of personal insult what generally means that you are out of ammo?

[Mungos]

To loose this a bit. Does anybody know any famous satsangis(pop stars, sportsman, holly man...)

[Mungos]

Anybody

[Mungos]

I think also the drummer from Madonna and Sting is RS .

[mehtani]

Reading the above comments as an outsider, can already see the difference in a satsangi and others.

[Robert Searle]

THINGS ARE PROBABLY NOT AS OBVIOUS, AND SIMPLE AS WE LIKE TO THINK....

Thoughts, and Visions

Thursday, 2 September 2010Religare,#
Gurinder, and Beas Satsang, Part Two.

The Bloggers comments on the previous two articles by Brian Hines................

Sometime after my initiation into the Radhasoami Satsang Beas, or RSSB someone claiming to be an English teacher who worked in Spain came out with a claim. He revealed that Gurinder (shortly before Charan passed on) had done some kind of business "mistake," but Beas Satsang sent a message claiming that he was a Perfect Master. Hence, he could do no wrong. The English teacher then asked me what sort of power we were dealing with? This was somewhat disturbing at the time as I did have some doubts about Gurinder which unfortunately are now bourne out by the revelations at Brian Hines Blog.

Another red flag was raised when I was with some friends at a home Satsang in which there was mention about the construction for a run-way of sorts at Haynes Park so that Gurinder could land his aircraft! However, this came to nothing....probably due to the bureaucratic local planning authorities!! Admitedly, I did not think much of this...and everyone seemed to regard it as amusing. But is a "run-way" a best way of using money....probably money which originated from the Satsang itself...?

The question which I am concerned here is this. Does it all matter? In one sense, it does as revealed in Brian Hines two articles. But it must be remembered that the physical Master like many incarnations in India is seen as the physical manifestation of God. What I present here are three ways of looking at this subject with an open mind. Admitedly, I am a bit of a Radhasoami apologist because I feel there is more than meets the eye ....

KEY CLAIM I.

Whether Gurinder is perfect, or not probably does not matter as the following extract reveals, and is believed to have been said by Sawan Singh..

“....If the Guru himself has not reached Satlok, but his Guru is perfect or, like Swami Ji Maharaj, has come straight from Anami(the Nameles Region, the highest of all), he will take his disciples up to the stage he has attained himself, and beyond that his Guru, or his Gurus Guru, or Swami Ji Maharaj Himself will take them. There should be no worry about this.”

Ref With the Three Masters, by Munshi Ram page 68, 2001 edition.

But the question is this? Why should an "imperfect" Master exist? The answer maybe that the Mauj (or Divine Will) of God wants to "wind up" RSSB for reasons best known to Itself. Indeed, the whole organization has become absurdly big, and "bloated". It does need to radically reduce its size. Ideally, Gurinder should step down from his position of Master, and possibly have set up a number of "Satgurus" who would be elected by advanced Satsangis. Such spiritual elections have already notably happened in Dayalbagh. However, this is unlikely to happen unless there is a serious power struggle at the top....

Furthermore, many people have complained that nothing is experienced in meditation after many years of practice. What is required is a database on which to draw upon made up of anonymous Satsangis who could give attempted descriptions of their experiences. This could act as an encouragement.

KEY CLAIM II.

In RSSB the the physical Satguru is meant to be omnisicient....but there is plenty of evidence on the contrary though a disciple would simply regard this as as test of faith, and/or come out with some kind of rationalization......

........Just after Maharaj Charan Singh former head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas died in 1990 a book appeared on him, and his discourses entitled Treasure Beyond Measure. In it he discussed his own experiences about the utter suprise that he was appointed Sant Satguru in 1951 by the previous deceased incumbent Maharaj Jagat Singh Ji. He regarded the whole matter as a cruel trick of fate. To a Satsangi, or devotee this shows his utter humility! He was pretending that he was not a real Master!!However, what perhaps was Maharaj Charan Singh really saying without giving the game away? He was arguably indicating to those "in the know" that he was telling the truth pure, and simple as far as he could understand it at the time.

To understand what follows it is best to examine a mystic called Faqir Chand. He, like Maharaj Charan Singh was regarded as a much respected teacher of shabd yoga. But Chand claimed that though he was regarded as the physical manifestation of God he was not omniscient. He did not know anything about the miracles that his devotees expressed to him in which his Radiant Form would appear in the outer, or inner worlds of matter, or spirit. He found this same unawareness with other masters of the shabd yoga tradition, and this is borne out by evidence. He concluded that it was the BELIEF AND FAITH of the devotees which generated the phenomena of inner visions, and miracles due to their devotional love for him. However, this did not imply necessarily that they were merely hallucinations but in many perhaps most cases that it was their Higher Self (ie ones Personal God) which appeared in a Radiant Form that looked like him! Thus, Maharaj Charan Singh may be indicating the "truth" indirectly of the above phenomenon.
It should be added that for the Chandian Effect to be genuine in the guru world one, or more of a line of Masters should be bona fide in the spiritual sense.

Gurinder Singh though has on one, or more occassion indicated in his Satsang that he (using the "I" in context to his discourse) is aware of his devotees wherever they are! If correct, he has tried to suggest indirectly that he is omniscient which runs counter to the claims of Faqir Chand.

Yet, in a letter to a devotee I used to know he claimed that she could continue with her Bhajan (attempts at trying to listen to the Sound Current in this context) but admitted that she did not even do it! This she found puzzling! There may well be some other similiar evidence...This would be no surprise.

A rather odd thing occured in connection with myself. This is not a meditation experience per se but happened quite naturally, and spontaneously as I was walking. An image of Gurinder Singh appeared in the area of my Third Eye in a "circle" shape. He was dressed with his turban, and a white suit....the one which I wore at initiation back in 1993! The image changed but with the same suit. Perhaps this "mind trick" was suggesting in a crude manner that the Master was myself which is rediculous! However, my present Lower Self entangled in mind, and matter is ofcourse NOT the same as my pure Higher Self which is what Chand was really on about. But it was an odd "mind trick".

However, I do believe rightly, or wrongly that "God-Realised" Masters exist who are to a high degree "omniscient". Yet, most are probably not. Moreover, I suspect that if Gurinder,(or should I say Babaji?) and those like him are indeed as such it may well be that this process of unfoldment (ie.a degree of "omniscience") may be "gardually" developed either before, or after their mastership. This is a big subject, and appears to have something to do with the mechanics of higher conciousness.

KEY CLAIM III.

Depending on ones sensitivity when I have attended Satsang at Southall there is an intense concentration of the subtle energies of higher conciousness. This awareness I believe has been increased after my experiences with Sant Harjit Singh. What is significant is that this "sea" of higher energies does NOT come from the Satsangis alone. In other words, it may well have a divine source, or sources. I recall feeling this Power descending from the ceiling of the Satsang Hall in most a gentle, and spontaneous manner. Sometimes ofcourse one can see a white glow in some of the Satsangis themselves which is extremely subtle.

When I leave the Southall Satsang this higher energy of conciousness can be experienced in the wonderful park nearby. I also recall Sant Harjit Singhs energy not only in his house but also outside...and beyond ofcourse. This is a matter of personal experience, and I cannot prove it unfortunately...

Ofcourse, critics would say that the above is experienced in places like football matches, and pop music festivals...when the atmosphere becomes electric!! However, what I experience (along with many others) is something far more than this. It is A POWER unlike anything of this world...

In other words, RSSB is still a living faith par excellence....................

http://thoughtsandvisions-searle88.blogspot.com/2010/09/religare-gurinder-and-beas-satsang-part.html

[seeker2011]

In other words, RSSB is still a living faith par excellence....................

And who's to say you would /wouldn't have had such &/or similar experiences with or without RSSB?

[Robert Searle]

Tara,

I do not see how this is relevant to the claims from my blog?

[Moongoes]

Quote Tara:
IMO, most Satsangis are liars. In fact, I think all of them are. Some are liars out of sheer naivety, because they truly believe. But, the others are just blatant liars who get an ego kick out of lying about their alleged spiritual practice.

Moongoes:
Yes i am a liar and then again i am not cause i never considered my self such thing as satsangi.
Years ago i signed in for technique of surat shabd yoga and i didn't sign for and nobody asked me to do any thing like hand folding and saying RS to everyone with hypocritical smile or to come to satsangs and pretend to do royal work aka seva with selling CDs or books or stand at the door or to have only RS friends.I also meditated from 2 to 7 hours but today i live in the moment and i do not care to reach anywhere i don't care for any so called experiences or effort, everything is right infront of our nose the real thing for me is the essence of the Life itself. But personaly i think one cannot say for one group of people like yoga groups or black or white people or Indians or Americans . Europeans that they are liars or anything like that cause there are different people in this groups which i mentioned some people are liars,some are not some are annoying some are not some are good at one thing some are better at another..

[Account Deleted]

Tara,
You seems to have so much of accurate knowledge of R.S.S.B Organisation.
Would you like to share few emails,

I need to know few things.
Kindly email me at soulseekerindia(at)gmail.com

[Moongoes]

Moongoes is a Jeet Kune doist.
Punk's not dead

[Robert Searle]

Tara,

You are missing the point, and I did say that the RS Faith is still a faith par excellence. Why? Because it is a FAITH.So what? It is faith, and belief that create the reality to believers that Gurinder is God Incarnate..even though as person he probably is not. But like everyone else including you, and me we all have a Pefect Master, or Higher Self..We maybe good people, we maybe criminals even...Yet, that same Self is in all creation. So,if an initiate has inner visions of Gurinder it is not Gurinder per se. It is arguably in many cases the Higher Self of the meditator manifesting ItSelf as the Ishta Dev, or Chosen Ideal....in this case Gurinder!!! This concept no matter how outrageous to our sensibilities appears in Hindu Mysticism on rare occassions. A Guru may actually reveal that his, or her experiences of Him, or Her are manifestations of the disciples Higher Self. Ofcourse, in certan cases these can be negative Lower Self Projections of our Minds.

Faqir Chand, claimed that he did not appear to disciples at all in their inner experiences. In effect, he saidthat it was their belief, and faith in him which generated the phenomena. The Guru irrespective of whether he is perfect, or imperfect acts as a catalyst for inner experiences...

[Seeker2011]

... 'You are missing the point, and I did say that the RS Faith is still a faith par excellence. Why? Because it is a FAITH.So what? It is faith, and belief that create the reality to believers that Gurinder is God Incarnate..even though as person he probably is not ...'

Wow – reading this there’s some cause for doubt as to whether/not this scribe ever reads for understanding & consistency what it is that he writes with such apparent authority. Question mark here as to who exactly might be missing the point!!

[Robert Searle]

Thank you for your response. I appreciate where you are coming from.

..As far as I am concerned the Chandian approach is probably correct not just for RS Gurus but many others..as long as there is at least one genuine guru in their line, and also if there is some genuine spiritual link (manfesting itself as power which one maybe able to pick up during some group meeting).

If the above is true the question is why? The answer I feel is that it maybe a way of paying off certain karmas...In other words, a test of faith. If in spite of allegations the faith is maintained then this could be to our credit...

As indicated everybody has a Pefect Master, or rather a Higher Self as far as I believe it.....

[Seeker2011]

... as long as there is at least one genuine guru in their line, and also if there is some genuine spiritual link (manfesting itself as power which one maybe able to pick up during some group meeting).

And this is also the Chandian approach ... ? Tallies with all Chand made reference to, that is all he came to realise & know as, the Self?

... If the above is true the question is why? The answer I feel is that it maybe a way of paying off certain karmas...In other words, a test of faith. If in spite of allegations the faith is maintained then this could be to our credit...

So we can forget any evidence &/or allegations &/or contradictions indicating 'crap' guruhood cos, by definition, whether crap guru or not we NEED - definitionally NEED - this link to precisely WHAT? WHAT exactly does this 'guru' supposedly &/or necessarily link us to? From WHAT exactly in reality have we been 'separated' that we need to rely on such blind-faith in such a link even in the face of quite evident contradictions?

And Chand - is that right - also followed this line of 'spiritual' reasoning? Sure about that at the end of the day ... or was he trying to indicate what might be the way through this apparent paradox so that we, also, might come to realise the Self?

Wow YOU - just little YOU at the end of the day - are in for a heck of a surprise!

[tAo]

Robert posts this same old irrational nonsense month after month, year after year. frankly, its rubbish.

He claims that it doenlt matter whether a guru is a fake. He claims that even a fake guru can bring us to the "true self". He claims that even if only one in a lineage of gursus is true, then later disciples will still receivce the "power".

All of this kind of nonsense is predicated upon Robert's personal opinions, beliefs and supposed perceptions. Robert is merely an apologist for RS and sant mat. He says that he "feels" the mysterious and subtle "power" in proximity to the RS guru and at the satsang meetings/venues. But this is nothin g more than Robert's wishful imagination.

Tara is all too right... [that Robert's position is basically] that just because a jeweller has one real diamond (back somewhere) among the rest of his collection of fakes, we are then to supposed believe that the other fakes also carry the same power, by dint of the one true diamond?? I hardly think so. And moreover, who/what says that that supposed 'one diamond' is really a true diamond?? Again, we are just supposed to take Robets word/belief as fact?? I think not.

Robert presents nothing more than a bunch of unsubstantiated claims and imaginary suppositions... aimed at attempting to validate RS and sant mat mysticism, with whatevver psychic/supernatural/paranormal nonsense he can come up with in order to circumvent and evade the hard questions.

The claims and arguments that Robert posts are a joke (imo). In the end, his position all comes doen to his own personal beliefs and his imagination. So why not just admit that, and thus dispense with all the other convoluted BS about lineage and "power" and 'true guru vs false guru', and so on and so forth.

PS: Kudos to Tara for her on-target insight, and for articulating it all so well.

[Robert Searle]

What I have been doing here is merely to expand the ideas of Faqir Chand, and extend them more, and more into the questionable credibility of not just Gurinder but also of other gurus. Whether all this is nonsense is essentially an open question.

[nietzsche]

There is also an obvious contradiction at the base idea that a succeeded Guru (diamond) would know his successor to become a success too because he would have to know the future for that. That would mean that the future would be predeterminated. That would mean that there is no free will in us or any other living thing that could change the future.
Than there would be no responsibility on our side we would solve the problem of free will by totally eliminating our self and that seems stupid and dogmatic. If we choose the more intelligent position to at least leave the paradox of predetermination and free will than we will have to accept that no God(man) can know the future and therefore the power of every God(man) is at least limited to these boundaries. In other words you can choose to be a Satsangi or not. You can choose to meditate or not. A Guru can fail in his mission to become a great power or not...The old enemy, seduction or the snake or the devil or Kal still holds his power and I don't see how that wil ever be resolved. Just take your responsibility and accept your freedom to fail or succeed at anything.
What do you people think. Is there a free will or is everything predetermined? Or do you have to take an active decision to accept the will of the guru to make his power determine your future? If so you have to be sure the guru has this power and that the guru follows the will of his guru and so on to drive at a realized guru and than even that guru can fail because of free will, not? It seems to me that the longer the chain the bigger the risk.

[Seeker2011]

... What I have been doing here is merely to expand the ideas of Faqir Chand, and extend them more, and more into the questionable credibility of not just Gurinder but also of other gurus. Whether all this is nonsense is essentially an open question.

maybe I'm a wee bit old-fashioned but isn't it usually the practice - that is before expanding the ideas of another - to actually understand those 'ideas'! Perhaps a trip back to sit-in-the-presence of Harjit, is that FC's current successor, mightn't go amiss.

And nonsense? An open-question? Perhaps the answer to that lies in if/when that understanding dawns!

[Brian Hines]

nietszche, I look upon life as being determined rather than predetermined.

Meaning, life is too complex to be able to figure out what is going to happen ahead of time. This is true of most things in the world, other than very simple cause and effect relationships.

You know, the whole "butterfly effect" thing. Tiny events can have huge consequences. "For lack of a nail, a kingdom was lost" -- when a king was bucked off during a battle because the horse's shoe lost a nail; hitting his head, he died, and without his leadership his army lost (that's close to the story, at least).

So things can be determined without there being a predetermination sort of knowledge.

[nietzsche]

Brian, I do have the idea that recent brain research suggests that we might be very wrong about what we think we are and what we think we do. A lot of our actions seem 'automatic' in the strict sense of an automat performing a causal reaction to a situation. We are not involved yet all we do is identify with the action and we call it our action like we call this body our body but we can be fooled into thinking that we have body parts that we don't have (anymore).
But in my opinion we have to stay careful on the instrument that we use to study the brain being the brain itself. So I do think we are not as much free as we think we are and I do also think that our thinking is mostly the result of body processes happening simultaneously and trying to control the speech centre. But I'm still not believing that everything is causal determined .... yet ;)