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January 12, 2009

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So true. What a disgusting cult. And to think I devoted 27 years to it!

I for one am very glad and pleased that we are finally getting down to the nitty-gritty of the RS cult. I am glad to someone put this all upon the table.

I myself have touched upon many of these points in my comments here over the past few years, but because it was mostb alkways merely my own opinion, and lacking in sufficient corroborative data, I was never able to articulate it as succintly and specifically as Unknown has done recently.

And I too (along with my spouse) had come to the same basic conclusion as Unknown, although for me it began a few months prior to the death (1990) of the previous RS master, which btw was also before the present master was known and appointed.

But then pretty quickly as time went on, and probably also because I ceased any sort of affiliation/association with RS such as going to RS satsang meetings etc etc, it rapidly became clear to me that both the RS path and the RSSB was simply another deceptive and misleading religious doctine and cult, and that the RS so-called master was nothing more than an illusion, a sham, a phony guru who was believed in and (unfortunately) worshipped by hundreds of thousands of relatively naive and foolish and rather spiritually immature people.

Anyway, its good that Brian has given Unknown's information and testimony more visiblity and attention. I also think far too many RS satsangis (like some who even occasionally frequent this comment forum) are far too deep in denial or are just plain ignorant about it, and they remain too deceived by the over-all influence of the memes of the RS cult, and its dogma and mind-control.

And I too was quite fortunate to escape RS unscathed and without any damage (other than the cost of a few wasted trips to the Dera)... but I can surely see that many others are still very much trapped (and unfortunately in all probability for the rest of their lives), or even just lingering on in attachement to the dogma, the faulty meditation practice, and the deceipt and abuse of the guru-cult fraud that is hidden beneath the facade and mystique of RS.

Thanks to Brian for assembling and posting this, and extra-special thanks to Unknown for being so candid and articulate and for publicly sharing the unhappy but relevant facts about the RSSB.


Maybe Unknown is ... Who Am I/one hand clapping/pathless one/tAo

Please read the below short link:

http://mysticplanet.com/NearDeathExperience.html#near_death_experience

Imo RS path is essentially the manual, consciously controlled entry into an experience similar/identical to that related in this 'NDE'.

Question is, for those who have attained regular immersion into this 'state', to what extent is there potential for whole-scale, consciously awareful, primary motivational 'fraud' or 'con'?

Personally, I believe only those who have *not* experienced these levels of experience (as described in the link), can believe this is so, mistakenly projecting their lack of experience as a univeral truth?

Any thoughts? :)

I'll keep this short.

I am very glad that "unknown" has made this information available. It is important that such matters be known due to great susceptibility for corruption within any organization. Those who wish to know about the "other side" of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RS for short) cult, before making any decision to become a seeker in the RS version of Sant Mat (SM), is advised to read this.

Having said that, I don't find that the gist of Sant Mat to be in disagreement with my personal understanding. The teaching appears to admit inability to teach the more advanced philosophical logics found elsewhere on the Church of the Churchless blog. Even the metaphor of God is acceptable to me considering that most of us are inured to this belief before we begin to search for spiritual meaning. I don't mean to imply there is any God, spiritual meaning, or soul, or ultimate significance to the creation, however in our existing mental state, we don't know better and so we struggle in this self identity, ignorant of the transcendent mystery or even the altered states of consciousness.

manjit asked: "Question is, for those who have attained regular immersion into this 'state', to what extent is there potential for whole-scale, consciously awareful, primary motivational 'fraud' or 'con'?"

-- It seems highly unlikely that there is any potential for someone who can enjoy these states. The source of joy for owning a new thing is "inside." I expect the most joy one can experience is by going "inside" - whatever "inside" means.

As manjit says: "only those who have *not* experienced these levels of experience (as described in the link), can believe this is so, mistakenly projecting their lack of experience as a univeral truth"

-- This can be a big obstacle for a religious organization, if its management members and even the Master himself have not achieved these "states.'

I do consider SM something like a manual for practice that passes one through these NDE like states. It may not work for all people equally.

I ‘dusted off’ the folder containing numerous intimate accounts of Mr. Babani’s son-in-law and representative for approximately 30 years, until resigning and disavowing around 10 years ago. As many know, the late Mr. Babani was a prominent figurehead, Secretary of RSSB and did foreign Satsang tours with Charan Singh.

I will transcribe this material into a word documents that can be attached to emails to webmaster Brian which I assume will be the easiest format to post and archive for those who may benefit from a glimpse behind the façade and rather than let this perspective fall by the wayside.

The subjects fall loosely into these categories (with ‘Waking Now’s introduction and background to himself) :

*Charan Singh’s ruthlessness concerning property and coercive activities to obtain the inheritances of Indian Satsangis.

*Palace Intrigue/Power Issues

*Insights into Charan’s mortal personality

*Discussions of Sant Mat Manipulation and Control

*The author’s illuminating views on a more authentic spiritual life with roots in his Indian heritage after liberation from cult deadening.

*Finally, a bit of parody for comic relief.

This may take a few weeks to accomplish, with the first installment in a few days. Some of the writings are correspondence with my spouse and some were briefly posted years ago, then quickly deleted, answering questions and providing clarifications on the ex satsangi site.

well great to see the critics of RSSB..
Let me introduce myself i m a RSSB follower...
and i really loved the way you all have been trying to spoil the image of the spiritual path of radha soami..
its nice to see and nice to know that many left this path after struggling so many years in trying to meditate regularly but in vain that they havent seen any light and sound..
first of all congrajulations ladies and gentle man..
i dont know whether all people who joins a school or college comes out with a flying colours all the time or everyone can only taste success trying to avoid meet failure..
but we know every cant be success as well as cant fail..
all depends upon lots of points which has to be taken into consideration..
well first dear people who ever is reading this..
now i will try to tell you why you havent achieved anything in this spiritual path,
there are always certain rules and regulations followed under any kind of institutions if one wants to get the results..
and before God realisation comes Self realisation..
have you all realised that ever actually whom you are?where from you came?what are you?why are you here for?why have u born and why u will have to die one day..
have you successfully maintained urself staying away from ur 5 great enemies..
Lust
Anger
pride
attachment
greed
perhaps i can say by reading you all
no you all failed...
and its a normal thing...
to pass out isnt an easy especially while searching for lord..
are you all OK..
what you all think
The power who created the universe..the power which created everything you and me..
we can easily meet that power?
Do we think God as like he is some Tom Dick n Harry
No dear friend not at all..
for realising god for meeting god...you need to be determined..
have faith
trust
dedication
you people all are talking long words about sant mat
do u guys really follow santmat the way one should have to..
well the answer is very easy dear
you all guys are here to spell your frustration as unable to meet the lord itself shows..
you havent trusted your master unconditionally
thats why you all are here complaining..
well its again a natural thing it happens..
every child complains about their parents at some point of their life.
But parents always stay calm and quite as they know the reality of life.
well but its still nice to see people talking negative about RSSB..its nice
And its not a big deal when we see millions and billions of people following it and trusting it..and few people opposing it..
i would not like to be smart saying majority is authority.
because it will be kiddish...on my part..
As god one side the creator is one and he is the only majority and he is the only authority
and dear friends remember onething very very carefully ..in all ages God had send his messenger in the form of Human..so that he can teach us and take us back..
perhaps we know it and believe and do admit we can never understand the language of animals..
its only humam which consider as top of the creation ...
and one more thing brother..
have patience and preservence when following any path..you have wasted fews years according to u..
but well one day u will definetly realiase that the days u came out from this path actually that is the day you can start your wasted days from.
may god bless you guys all ways..and i m here looking forward being in your company.

Manish, I followed the guru's instructions diligently, if somewhat imperfectly (are you perfect? is anyone?) for over thirty years. I had great (though not perfect; does anyone?) faith in the guru.

So, for me, your criticisms are misguided.

Also, obviously you haven't been able to eliminate the "great enemies," so Sant Mat meditation hasn't worked for you either.

I don't know you personally, but from your comment I can tell that you haven't gone beyond...

Attachment (to you being right, and others being wrong)
Judgment (criticizing other people)
Ego (believing that you know it all, and others don't)

I've got no problem with people having human frailties. I've got plenty of them myself.

But it bothers me when imperfect people, like yourself, claim to know what the perfect spiritual practice is.

I have a few things to say in response to the recent comment posted by Manish arora.

But first, I'd like to say DITTO to Brian's on target reply to Manish. Brian said:

"I can tell that you haven't gone beyond...
Attachment (to you being right, and others being wrong)
Judgment (criticizing other people)
Ego (believing that you know it all, and others don't)

--and also--

"it bothers me when imperfect people, like yourself, claim to know what the perfect spiritual practice is."

------------------------------

Now then...

Manish has written:

"well great to see the critics of RSSB."

-- Thats simply bull... its a load of disingenuous and condescending sarcasm.

"i really loved the way you all have been trying to spoil the image of the spiritual path of radha soami."

-- No one here has tried to "spoil" anything. Radha Soami has spoiled its own "image"... all by itself, and without any help from anyone else.

"many left this path after struggling so many years in trying to meditate regularly but in vain that they havent seen any light and sound."

-- That's a mistaken presumption. Because I for one have seen supernal lights and heard many celestial sounds... but so what?

"now i will try to tell you why you havent achieved anything in this spiritual path"

-- You don't know shit about anyone else's spiritual sadhana. You also don't know shit about "this spiritual path".

"there are always certain rules and regulations followed under any kind of institutions"

-- I am not interested in any such "institutions" or their "rules and regulations"... thats only for people like Manish who can't think and reason for themselves and who need to be told what to do.

"before God realisation comes Self realisation."

-- There is no difference. They are both just words and ideas.

"have you all realised that ever actually whom you are? where from you came? what are you? why are you here for? why have u born and why u will have to die one day."

-- Yes I have (to all of the above)... but so what? You Manish, you obviously haven't "realised" anything. That's quite apparent throughout all your statements and comments.

"have you successfully maintained urself staying away from ur 5 great enemies.. perhaps i can say by reading you all
no you all failed."

-- Again, you don't shit about anybody else. And for you to presume that you do know, only reveals your foolishness and your ignorance.

"for realising god for meeting god...you need to be ...."

-- You obviously don't shit about "god". You are just another babbling fool, babbling your religious rhetoric.

"you people all are talking long words about sant mat"

-- No, YOU are talking long words... just pretentiously babbling, yet saying nothing.

"do u guys really follow santmat the way one should have to."

-- I don't "follow" anything. And moreover, there is NO "should have to".

"you all guys are here to spell your frustration as unable to meet the lord"

-- Again, you don't know shit about anyone else here, nor anything about their spirituality.

"you havent trusted your master unconditionally"

-- I don't believe in any so-called "master". Nor do I put my trust in any other human being. Its only blind fools like yourself who think this way.

"thats why you all are here complaining."

-- No, YOU are the one who is "complaining". Thats quite obvious. People are discussing and debating many things here. YOU are the one who is complaining about that.

"every child complains about their parents at some point of their life."

-- Fyi, YOUR stupid so-called "master", is NOT my parent. Not at all. Thats entirely YOUR OWN thing, not ours.

"stay calm and quite as they know the reality of life."

-- You don't know anything about "reality of life". Thats obvious from everything you say.

"well but its still nice to see people talking negative about RSSB.... when we see millions and billions of people following it and trusting it..and few people opposing it."

-- That's because there are always vastly many more fools than there are wisemen. And unfortunately, you are among the fools, not the wise.

"i would not like to be smart saying..."

-- You are not "smart" at all. You are stupid to think that you know better than others here.

"As god one side the creator is one and he is the only majority and he is the only authority"

-- Thats absolute dogmatic authoritarian religious bullshit... and the emphasis is on "bullshit".

in all ages God had send his messenger in the form of Human..so that he can teach us and take us back."

-- More stupid religious bullshit.

"its only humam which consider as top of the creation"

-- Man, you are really full of it.

"and i m here looking forward being in your company."

-- Thats fine... but then you should drop all of your condescending religious dogma and your sant mat rhetoric... and maybe you will learn something. So far, you have nothing to teach, and much to learn. And as long as you are open-minded towards others, you are welcome here.


Manish, people who step out of sant mat do so because they have no choice. Old clothes that once comforted and supported us, later on get tight, thin, stifling, maybe need a good fumigating, and sometimes also, plain get out of fashion.

In short, the people who step out of sant mat, take a good long look at themselves and say; I don't like the way I am becoming on this path, I'd better step off it. It may take a restless while to orientate, but it is the right thing to do, that they have absolutely no doubt about.

Hi Manjit,
I liked the NDE description. Why was it near death? I am tempted to joke about enlightenment through painkillers, but the fact is I believe peaked perception can happen in any number of ways. Also my very dear friend was in hospital last week and experienced something similar, also with injected painkillers. Whether he will continue to have these experiences will be something to look forward to in the future!

I was however interested in Tucson's comment some time ago, where he mentioned hearing what was possibly the Shabd once, but noticed no actual change in himself ie: he was not better for it. What a wonderful thing to experience, though to see and hear in the way the writer from Mystic Planet does. You imply here that the sant mat gurus may have similar access to sound and light continuously and that this would surely prevent them from being hardened fraudsters. For all my sant mat life I believed this and now I just say so what?

My only interest is how the meditation and lifestyle actually affect people, not how they think they are affected, but how they are actually affected. Here Unknown has has been very clear and I welcome his candid, down to earth approach. Unknown, I look forward to your installments.

Manish, you haven't a clue what you are talking about and judging from the pap you have written you don't have the faintest understanding about Sant Mat as it is supposed to be practiced either. Let he who is blameless cast the first stone ...

well nice to see everyone here again..i think everyone whomever read my comment found truth in it..

first of all let me give back some respect i recieved..
well dear reader whomsoever you are...
who has used word like bull shit and stuff...
i think shit is in ur mind shit is in you and you think shit and so as you speak shit..well take care of ur own shit.
and i never said i know everything
i never said i m complaining...
and seeing the critics of spiritual path instead of losing my temper i was great to u all so you people gave it the name of sacrasm well kool..so the truth is popping out..
well my dear readers..
even one said there are fools everhwere..yeah u rite
as some said charity begins at home..
so you should take care of your intelleuct as no one whomever oppose other critic other can be smart they are foolest than fooler..
and i m happy to see them here as well..
god bless..
and i never disclosed anything here neither show what i know and what i donot ..
i just passed away a simple comment after reading your views on SANTMAT..
and whomever has stepped out after many years of struggle....
well i think i cant even use word like shit bull or fool for you..
who trusted first later on because of lack on faith got out of the path..do not know for what reasons..
only god knows..
and one dear gentleman even commented saying you stupid so called master..
thats a great reply ..well from jesus to lord krishna from vivekananda to lord budha everyone is a master..
so i think your views on master needs to be re introduce to you.
well dear readers i only wanted to say something..
and that to true..
and someone even said many harsh words about me..
i welcome all...
because i see you all as innocent..
well thats why they say INDIA is the land of Holy saints..
thats why after jesus we never say anyone else coming to the western land as a messenger of god..
and people are true jealous of indian masters ruling the world once again..like always..
and now here is a statament ...
I TRUST SANTMAT NOT FOR ONE REASON BUT FOR VARIOUS REASON..
I TRUST SANTMAT BECAUSE I TRUST MY MASTER
I TRUST MY MASTER BECAUSE I HAVE WITNESSED LODES OF PEOPLE SUCCESSFULLY FOLLOWING THIS PATH..AND I M HAPPY PEOPLE WHO DONT DESERVE AUTOMATICALLY LEAVING THIS PATH.
BUT ONE REQUEST I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE TO YOU ALL..
YOU GUYS SAID YOUR NOT COMPLAINING YOU GUYS ARE SPREADING SHIT...
ABOUT ONES SPIRITUAL PATH..WHICH SHOWS THE WAY YOU PEOPLE ARE BOUGHT UP AND GROWN UP I DONT KNOW TO WHAT AGE GROUP YOU ALL BELONGS TO..
BUT THAT DOESNT MAKE DIFFERENCE WHITE HAIR IS THE SIGN OF AGE BUT NOT WISDOM..

WELL ALL I CAN SAY..IF YOU CANT SPEAK GOOD OF OTHERS DONT SPEAK BAD EITHER..

I M NOT TAKING PAIN HERE TO DEPEND MY SPIRITUAL PATH
I NEVER NEED..TO..
ALL I M HERE FOR HUMANITY REASONS..
RSSB SPIRITUAL PATH IS NOT A PATH MADE IN A DAY IT TOOK LOTS OF EFFORTS TO REACH HERE..
BUT NONETHE LESS YOU GUYS HERE WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND AT ALL..
AND I M HERE NOT AT ALL TO CONVINCE FOR ANY REASONS FOR ANYONE..
ITS NONE OF MY BUSINESS I KNOW.
BUT I WOULD DEFIENTLY RASIE MY VOICE WHERE EVER I SEE THINGS GOING IN A WRONG MANNER..
AND IF YOU GUYS ARE REALLY DECENT TRY USING LANGUAGE JESUS MIGHT HAVE TOUGHT ENGLISH PEOPLE..
AND NEVER CALL ANYOTHER MASTER SO CALLD STUPID..
ALWAYS REMEMBER HE IS WATCHING YOU
NOW WHO IS HE ...KEEP SEARCHING FOR IT;
EVERYONE CANT BE FORTUNE..
TAKE CARE GUYS
I M BIT DISSAPOINTED..BUT YEAH ITS A WORLD..WITH GOOD AND BAD AROUND..
NOW AGAIN DONT SEND ME SHIT REPLIES..
I WILL WELCOME EVERYONES COMMENT WITH DECENCY..
YOU KEEP UR SHIT BULLSHIT LANGUAGE WITH URSELF AND UR FAMILY
MAY GOD BLESS EVERYONE

Manish, you're deluded. Many or most people, I'm sure, found no or very little truth in your comment.

If you want to put your head in the sand and ignore legitimate criticisms of Sant Mat/RSSB, that's fine. But it isn't OK to tell other people to do the same.

Why do you go on a churchless blog and try to stop people from discussing churchless subjects? You must be insecure in your faith, not trusting that God/Master/Guru/Tao/One is having things happen as they should.

"ALWAYS REMEMBER HE IS WATCHING YOU"

---who is the "he" that is watching? Is there a name?
---how does "he" do this watching?
---does this "he" watch everyone and everywhere, at all times?
---where did you learn that this "he" is watching?
---who trained you to, "always remember" he is watching?
---what is the penalty, for not remembering?

Thanks for a shit-less reply,
Roger

I wish you everything that you are looking for Manish- one way or the other.

Manish,

I dubt anyone here has found any truth in your comment... simply because there is no truth in it.

Its all simply a bunch of your religious stuff, a load of "shit" thats in YOUR mind, and that has nothing to do with truth.

And I am very glad that you recognize that this "shit is in ur mind shit is in you and you think shit and so as you speak shit..ur own shit."

And, you ARE complaining.

And, there is no such "messenger of god".

And, no one is "jealous of indian masters".

And, nor are they "ruling the world once again"

And, nobody gives a damn if you "TRUST SANTMAT" or your "MASTER".

And, nobody care about "LODES OF PEOPLE FOLLOWING"

And, nobody cares if you are "HAPPY" because "PEOPLE WHO DONT DESERVE LEAVING THIS PATH".

And, its you who are "SPREADING SHIT...
ABOUT ONES SPIRITUAL PATH".

And, if you "CANT SPEAK GOOD OF OTHERS DONT SPEAK BAD EITHER."

And, nobody cares if you are "HERE FOR HUMANITY REASONS".

And, its you who "WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND AT ALL".

And, its you who "SEE THINGS GOING IN A WRONG MANNER".

And, nobody needs to "TRY USING LANGUAGE JESUS MIGHT HAVE"

And, everyone is free to "CALL ANY OTHER MASTER SO CALLD STUPID".

And, there is no one "WATCHING YOU" or "WATCHING" anyone.

And, how could you possibly know "WHO IS HE", when you don't even know who you are.

And, you are the one who needs to "KEEP SEARCHING FOR IT".

And, I am extremely "DISSAPOINTED" with YOU.

And, with all of YOUR "SHIT REPLIES".

And yet, I "WELCOME EVERYONES COMMENT", but unlike you, without any sort of imposed conditions such as "WITH DECENCY".

And, of course, "YOU KEEP UR SHIT BULLSHIT LANGUAGE WITH URSELF".

And yes, since you asked me to... I will "BLESS EVERYONE".


As usual, tAo makes his point very clear. Manish, you must keep in mind that this is the "churchless" blog and your comments are very "churchfull". Therefore, you are going to be challenged and you will have to accept that as long as you comment in that manner.

Catherine wrote: "I was however interested in Tucson's comment some time ago, where he mentioned hearing what was possibly the Shabd once, but noticed no actual change in himself ie: he was not better for it."

...I wonder what comment that was, but yes I have heard what probably qualifies as the Shabd, and there was nothing particularly transformative about it. Certainly no more "transformative" than hearing the birds sing or the toilet flush.

I also wonder which Catherine this is. We have the satsangi astrologer Catherine from South Africa and another "disenfranchised" satsangi Catherine who has commented here upon occasion for years.

Dear Manish,

I understand your anger and how you feel the need to defend your love for and your faith in the Master.

I have enjoyed reading many eloquent discussions by very articulate satsangis on this site. Everyone is different and we will each follow our path in our own way.

Please don’t upset yourself, if these comments annoy and hurt you its best not to get involved. As Master says try not to react. If the Master sees everything that is happening then he allows this to happen. Who can really understand the strange and marvellous workings of the ‘One’ behind the scene?

With love to you brother,

Manish,

If you are still here at Church of the Churchless...

I would like to encourage you to please share with us your own thoughts about how your own practice and experience with Santmat has benefitted you, about what your spiritual experiences are, about why you choose to have faith in your guru, about what your guru has given and/or done for you, and about anything else you feel that Santmat has to offer that is unique to Santmat, and about why others should believe and value that, as opposed to other spiritual teachings?

Please share only YOUR OWN personal thoughts and experiences, and not just more preaching of standard Santmat rhetoric.

Thanks.


Manish:

I think catherine and zenjen have said enough for me. [Posted by: catherine | January 16, 2009 at 12:26 PM][Posted by: zenjen | January 16, 2009 at 04:57 PM]

Additionally, please consider tAo's comment if you think it is something you would wish.[Posted by: tAo | January 16, 2009 at 05:34 PM]

respects


catherine:

My appologies, I know you were addressing tucson and I'm sure others here are more knowledgeable. I can only refer to pre-initiation.

There is sound and light before initiation into Sant Mat. There may be variations along the way. Before initiation, there were several indications to me that the sound varies but is generally dull initially. The sound seems to come and go. There has been sound which seemed to run through the body, which ranged from a numbing vibration of the body down to an earthquake like sensation. The vibration was not the tingling "ant bite" sensation felt with the loss of circulation in the legs. In some instances, the outer hearing fades and the attention becomes directed "inside" as if ones head is put inside a helmet or simply stunned after being in or seeing a serious accident. I have even closed myself into closets and submerged my head in the bathtub (but not the toilet:) thinking it was coming from outside, but the intensity didn't fade: it got more distinct. I hear it mildly even now in the silence between the keystrokes. Others here may be able to provide more insight.

In addition to the sound, with sufficient practice, there was a very black void behind the eyes into which an upward pulling sensation arose. "Above" this black void, at the eye center, the tisra til is very much alive with streaming multi-colored "emanations." In the center of the tisra til is a series of white concentric rings which pulse with the heart beat and so may be considered a neural phenomenon. The mind is intimately linked to the brain. The pulling did not seem to be strongly correlated to either sound or light but more as a sensation while approaching the first black void. This very black "void" occurs when the binocular vision through the eyes ceases. You must be free of almost all mental activity to get to this point (in the Now). When this happens, a foggy white area near the third eye becomes evident. The analogy of waves on a clear pond seems appropriate in describing this effect. As the ripples of thoughts and the awareness of the body become quieter, the foggy splotch clears and an interesting flower pattern appears.

The primary transformative factor at this level is simply in drawing the mind to stillness (Now). This stillness seems to grow if the practice of meditation continues. Hearing the sound is a little bit motivating, and the lights and pulling are important too. However, at this level, as tuscon points out, it's just a sound, and these are probably just a neural light show. The sound was interesting at first and annoying at times - particularly when it would get louder while sitting in the bathroom. It seems there is a great release when one begins to sob intensly, as the Great Master indicates. I couldn't tell if these tears were from joy or sorrow - it all felt the same in that it seems to clear a great deal of internal consternation and tumult. There is no sense of "thrill" with this experience as it is won by eliminating excitement. It can be very hard to master for anyone who is "seeking." It really just becomes a natural state, if you can get to that point. Charan Singh referred to a magnetic pull upward like lifting a weight (karma) from a magnetic needle so that it can reorient to its natural direction. It does seem this is true once you get far enough along. These experiences were what led me to become a "seeker."

I have found that there is a corresponding "downward and outward" pull as well. The worldly duties keep pulling. It has been a tough arguement I fight with myself. On the one hand I would like "God Realization" but my duties demand I pay my bills. This is why I respect the "middle way" and "being in the world but not of the world" so much. It is still difficult for me to watch people inflict their own suffering without trying to help them. And sometimes it's just plain funny: especially when I see that I do the same thing. :)

Meditation does become habituating but I don't know that it is ever very interesting until you experience something as vivid as the story manjit posted. Everything I've experienced appears to be a prelude to a powerful, life changing transformation but difficult to accomplish. It was a very low point in my life which brought me to this "path." I have since become much more respectful of all methods and do not think that one even requires a master in the way that many think. If god, the master, and disciple are ultimately One, then I think there is no distinction to begin with except those we create within ourselves. This is why I liked the talk (esp. 1 of 4) given by Krishnamurti in 1970.

Limited experience can give one the impression that they have achieved a great state and are somehow gifted spiritual teachers. I'm not sure how much trust one should give, if such states are related to neural activity and the mind. This is a very personal decision. Sant Mat claims to take one to the "level of the creator." I can't say what the experience is, however, the brilliant, comforting, white light that we dissolve into is said to be eternal and no longer subject to dissolution.

Due to the experiences I had before initiation, I felt it preferable to have a knowledgeable guide. I have no less respect for Sant Mat but after initiation, it has become clear that Sant Mat only takes one so far. The essential claim is that the "final stage in enlightenment" cannot be taught. Since Sant Mat is a taught path, it cannot pull one above the level of the creator god (which I think is the manifestation I AM) - as indescribable and gloriously beautiful this state may be. The unreachable region has not light or sound and one must "cut off one's own head and step on it," to achieve this state. I don't know how well the other methods work to achieve this exalted state.

So, before initiation, the sound seemed to lull the mind into a quiet state by drawing attention. Likewise, the darkness or lights drew the visual attention. Unfortunately it has not been as easy as formulating the concepts, after reading the books, about how neat it will be. As best as I can tell, one really does have to give up the self which is hanging on to this life with a white knuckle death grip.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that.


Best wishes and respects,

Thanks Jayme. I appreciate the rare, detailed description. My wish is that you and those around you are never harmed during the process of finding out who you are. I wish the same for myself and everyone else.

Jayme,

Thanks for your very interesting description of inner sensations. I have heard that when the shabd pulls it can be extremely uncomfortable, so I think one really has to be fully prepared and able to take the force of it without too much trauma.

At the moment I am reading ‘Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind’ by Shunryu Suzuki and I find it always levels me out and brings me more ‘down to earth’.

He says about power: “If you continue this simple practice every day (zazen) you will obtain a wonderful power. Before you attain it, it is something wonderful, but after you obtain it, it is nothing special. It is just you yourself, nothing special. … It is a kind of mystery that for people who have no experience of enlightenment, enlightenment is something wonderful. But if they attain it, it is nothing. But yet it is not nothing. … So if you continue this practice, more and more you will acquire something – nothing special, but nevertheless something”.

He continues … “Thus even though you do not do anything, you are actually doing something. You are expressing yourself. You are expressing your true nature. Your eyes will express; your voice will express; your demeanor will express. The most important thing is to express your true nature in the simplest, most adequate way and to appreciate it in the smallest existence”.

Cheers

Zenjen,

You stated,

"I have heard that when the shabd pulls it can be extremely uncomfortable, so I think one really has to be fully prepared and able to take the force of it without too much trauma."

---Where did you hear, the "shabd" pulls.....?
---Brian, Tucson, et. al...any reference to the Shabd pulling and any discomfort there in?
---Sorry, sounds kinda ........oh well, nevermind.


Roger, no discomfort in my experience. Not surprising, since I haven't had much experience of shabd pulling.

catherine: thank you. Everything is quite wonderful. :)

zenjen: I don't know about the discomfort with shabd pulling. I expect it will vary between people. It varied with me due to all the miscellaneous mental garbage that would pass through the mind. I find that being "down to earth" is at its bottom a great place to be. The words you quote ring true with me. "Our dealings should be straight, in fact our whole way of life should be straight. That is real meditation." [Die to Live, p208] This is as down to earth as one can be.

Roger: In Die to Live, p194, answer to question 232, last paragraph of the answer: "The moment concentration is complete, the Light is there, nirat is there, and the Sound is very pulling."

Respects,

Roger,

The whole basis of the sant mat teachings is one of coming into contact with the shabd, which is the creative life force of the universe, which resounds within every living being, IMO.

This is a good example of the problems that are created by talking about inner experiences because it is just hearsay.

I heard this story many years ago and this is the only time I have heard someone speak about the inner pull. It was a personal story from someone who had a rather traumatic experience of being pulled out of the body and having no control over the experience, and did not find it very pleasant. So maybe it’s a good thing that it takes a long time to experience this ‘force’ and we have to be ready for it.

This was someone’s personal experience of course and we will all have our own individual experiences. For the time being I prefer to just deal with living in the moment, being as natural and honest as I can be and keeping my balance.

Jayme wrote: "I have even closed myself into closets and submerged my head in the bathtub (but not the toilet:) thinking it was coming from outside, but the intensity didn't fade: it got more distinct. I hear it mildly even now in the silence between the keystrokes. Others here may be able to provide more insight."

...You should try the toilet sometime. It's great. One time during meditation I was lapsing into slumber when there was suddenly an enormous sound. In RS books you read that the light of the inner regions is like a million suns but not blinding. Well, this sound was like a million pipe organs blasting but not deafening. I could never convey in words the incredible volume of this sound or understand how I could withstand it without my physical head exploding. It was like the whole universe was in me blasting this tone. It was vast beyond dimension. This experience was short as I was startled by it which ended the sound. I thought, wow!, and got up from my cushion. I was still the same old "slob on the bus".

Many sounds we hear are neurological. There is a condition called tinnitus where various sounds ring, hiss, buzz, humm or roar in the head. One time I was stranded in the Sonoran Desert in Mexico after my VW bus broke down...terrible, unsafe vehicles.

Anyway, there was nothing but dead silence, not even a fly buzzing. I began to notice a quiet humming sort of noise. I thought, ah, this must be the Shabd or maybe the Sound of the Desert. I was very proud of how spiritual I was that I could hear this.

Years later I realized that this humming was simply tinnitus. I have been exposed to much loud noise having listened to loud music such as sitting three feet away from one of the amps at a Blue Cheer concert like a complete fool, which I was and still am. Also, I have played bass in several very fine (in our opinion) and very loud garage bands. Tinnitus can be caused by exposure to loud noise and sounds such as gunshots and amplified blues riffs.

I now place all phenomena on equal footing. Nothing is more spiritual or better or worse than anything else except how my little mind interprets it. They are just differences in form and manifestation. That is what I meant by equating Shabd with the birds singing and the toilet flushing. All the same no-thing.

Tucson, I am the Catherine from time back. You can differentiate by looking at comment style. Mine is standard; I do not start with Dear or end with my First and Surname as well as All the Best or Best Wishes.

We have also heard the sound in the desert when we stopped to look at exceptional star formations one evening. It was neither tinnitus nor insect sound and definitely what I would call the turning of the spheres sound since we all heard it. I think anybody would have do so. I agree with the conclusions you, Zenjen and Jayme have drawn.

Hi tuscon,

I don't know if it is the same set of pipe organs but I have been "blasted" awake while in deep dreamless sleep from very loud "horns." I don't think the sounds can all be classified as tinnitus but think you are right about them being essentially neuronal or related to the perception of sound. I have little doubt that all these "experiences" have an equivalent brain-mind activity associated with them. The tinnitus issue was a concern of mine but the entire body has been affected at times. This is still just a phenomenological or noumenal apparition.

I am not very knowledgeable about the occurance of the sound and/or light in the other teachings but it does make me wonder if it is necessary to have phemomenological/noumenal experiences before one comes to realize that the simple "stillness of nothing" is what was being sought?

tuscon said "Nothing is more spiritual or better or worse than anything else..."

-- I agree. These words are only mental concepts of mine at the moment. Simply being present NOW seems to be right but my "getting here and now" is a bit problematic, since I seem to be spread across time and space and filled with categoreal bias. :)

(side comment: There is something called the Taos hum. I am guessing it is related to this discussion.)

Regards,

Hi Catherine,

When I posted that link, I wasn't really making an judgement about the 'reality' of such experiences being literal representations of what happens 'after death', or what practical benefit the experiences have on a person, or whether these are 'merely' chemically induced etc.

Rather, I was simply commenting on how the experience impacts upon a persons psyche, on how 'real' and 'powerful' and 'important' it can SEEM to be, and how it can radically alter and shape our beliefs.

IE, how the impact of such experiences are powerful enough to at least dampen any insinuations that the entire gamut of RS phenomena is based entirely on the lust for greed & land etc. That there are indeed other aspects to the phenomena, including the extremely powerful nature of these kind of experiences.

Hope that makes sense.

Regarding the Taos hum. I have been there a couple of times and did not hear it, at least not in the way others describe it. Perhaps it is the "Sound of the Desert" in that locality. Interesting vibes around there. The area seems to awaken intuitive faculties more readily than others. Planetary electro-magnetic fields may converge or interact with local geology in such a way that some people's nervous systems pick it up as audible sound. I once thought I would go back and live there one day. Not yet, but New Mexico is indeed the "Land of Enchantment".

zenjen,

Thanks for your reply. You seem like a very honest and sincere person.

"...coming into contact with the shabd, which is the creative life force of the universe, which resounds within every living being, IMO."

---talking about the shabd, imo, should not pose any kind of problem. Nothing wrong with conversation, among honest and sincere persons. Do any of the satsangis ever write down their shabd meditation experiences, in a personal diary?
---I would agree, discussing or relating other satsangi's experience, would not be necessary.
---However, the mechanism of pulling and any resultant trama, would be interesting to discuss. If it is all hearsay, then nevermind.


Tucson,

Have you been to ShipRock Mountain in NW New Mexico? Much planetary electro-magnetic fields converge and interact with local geology there. Love those radiating dikes.

Best wishes to all,
Roger

Roger,
I have not been to ShipRock. Have you and what is your experience there? Radiating dikes?... spiritual lesbians or what? ;)

What about critiquing yourself Brian? I am being perfectly sincere. I am not interested in exposing inconsistancies in you, i am not either suited to critique you or anyone else for that matter
You expose on this blog your most intimate thoughts. You evaluate and re-evaluate many ideas. You critique and praise many. You certainly do not praise yourself and you certainly do not critique yourself either. Maybe is because there is no self to critique. But lets say for the sake of argument that there is, from one perspective, some sort of self.And this self has some sort of persona.The persona who openned dialogue with other personas via the Church of the Churchless. In this Church, of the Churchless, you are not the master nor the leader. Yet, you have the louder voice. The power to choose what to lay out for people to read, to emphasise and de-emphasise comments without having to adher to any moral justifications. Science and personal preference blur and dissappear for the one with the decission making capability. An unknown person's text is put for us in the same level with a scientific text. We are left to interprete the text as a whole.A coherent whole or a Fragmented one...we do not know. For me foremost you are a writter. Some things you wrote in past it seems you dissmiss, others you felt the need to alter and adjust. Are you an artist or are you in pursuit of knowledge? Tell us. If you are artist you are not excused from the eye of the critique, but you do not have to excuse yourself for the art you create. If you are in pursuit of truth and knowledge, and you actully did set up a blog that adresses issues sensitive to many people, then please, critique your research, and start with yourself. Self reflect and tell us. I am interested to read.

Known, here's my immediate intuitive response (subject to change later):

I just do what I do. I don't know why I do it. It just happens.

Isn't this the way life is? For you, for me, for everybody? When we're honest about what we know and, more importantly, don't know.

My Tai Chi instructor used almost the same words last week. He'd told a story about going to a practice session of another marital arts style and asking the sensei why they did such and such.

Answer: it's just what we do. Warren (my instructor) then said, "And that's why we do what we do. We just do it."

I realize this won't satisfy you. You seem to want me to introspect, ponder my motives, my past, my personality, and come up with some revealing insight into myself.

Wish I could. Well, scratch those last words. Actually I'm not so sure I'd wish that, because I've come to feel happy in just doing things (Tai Chi, dance, meditation, blogging, etc) and not worrying about why I'm doing it.

Lastly, some blogging services are free these days. If you'd like to control what happens on a blog, you can start your own.

Thanks for clearing that up. My opinion; Lust for greed and land are for an organisation like RSSB counter to it's whole taught philosophy and certainly not where it has it's Beas roots. A great deal of land has been accumulated through gifts and so forth; this needn't impact either. However, because the RSSB gurus are not God nor have they studied Proerty Science, they are going to make some errors when administering all the property. It sounds like Gurinder has got himself into quite a knot in Bombay.

Surely if a few Joe Blogs like myself have heard some cellular music in our time, then the gurus who live a very quiet life and who experience regularly the power of adoring crowds and the power of giving darshan, must at least believe more than just accumulating property? In fact they probably make property decisions for what they think is the good of their initiates. But then parents do things for their own children and politicians look after the interest of their own countries often at the expense of others.

I think Gurinder believes the RS Path exists, maybe has experienced elements of internal light and sound, and believes otherwise that the so-called power of his predecessors will pull him through.

Known,

Get a clue. This is a blog and not a state-run agency. The host can do with it as he pleases or shut it down tomorrow. Complain, criticise, judge if you want, but ultimately you will have to take it or leave it.

Brian: I realize this won't satisfy you. You seem to want me to introspect, ponder my motives, my past, my personality, and come up with some revealing insight into myself.

No that is not what I want. That is actually what you already do in this Blog. I said Critique. Critique.

Tuscon,

I was not aware. Thank you for clarifying it for me. Because i was confused between blogs and agencies and governments and power relations and other,,complicated stuff. So it is either take OR leave it.
Now I live it!!

Known, I still don't get it. Critique?

Why? And what? (am I supposed to critique)

If you mean "myself," I do that all of the time. Continually, as I'm aware of what I'm doing, and assessing whether what I'm doing is what I want to do.

As in while dancing, "Oops, just stepped on my wife's foot, better watch out for that move next time."

So, explain yourself. You seem to be trying to say something, but indirectly. Try being honest and straightforward (guess I'm offering up a critique of your communication style, which tends toward the nebulous).

I said that my interest is not to judge nor critique. It seems we cannot communicate. It's fine.It happens all the times.

But I'll try as a last attempt to be more lucid since you critiqued my writting and honesty as nebulus, which I kind off liked.

So here it goes
U said:

'Manish, I followed the guru's instructions diligently, if somewhat imperfectly (are you perfect? is anyone?) for over thirty years. I had great (though not perfect; does anyone?) faith in the guru.'

diligently,imperfectly, are you perfect? Is anyone? not perfect, does anyone?

You know how to post an article entitled
'A critique of RSSB'. You quote an uknown, in a document thrown out as a packet into webspace. In the past you wrote your own critques for RS, elaborately, thoughtfully and in inteligent way. But when i ask for a simple post "A Critique of BH" you have no idea what i mean or what i am talking about?

You just log on to you comp. and write. While quoting your tai chi?? teacher that said that "that is what we do and we do it".

"Known, here's my immediate intuitive response (subject to change later):

I just do what I do. I don't know why I do it. It just happens."

If it happens write it in the future. If it doesnt dont bother responding.
It means we are not communicating. This writting just happens to be english.


known, here's a suggestion: if you disagree with something that's been said on this blog, then state the nature of your disagreement.

Asking for a critique of the person who posted what was said -- what's the point in that? Except to deflect attention from the substance of the message and attack the messenger.

If I was setting myself up as some sort of authority, someone to be believed or followed, then I guess it would make sense to demand a Consumer Reports assessment of Brian Hines. Should you buy what this guy is offering?

I'm not doing that. Every other day (because I usually alternate posting between my two blogs) I simply sit down at my laptop and write about whatever is on my mind.

That's it. It's stuff that I've been thinking about anyway. Often based on a book I've been reading. Or a conversation I had with friends. Or something my Tai Chi instructor said.

Who has spent a lot of time in the East (Korea, Japan mostly) and is intimately familiar with Eastern philosophy (Chinese, mostly).

You're fond of dismissing simplicity. Seemingly obvious talk like, "We just do what we do." You might try reading Taoist literature sometime, or Zen, and ask yourself whether simplicity is closer to reality than complexity.

You like to ask questions. But you're asking them of me. Try asking them of yourself, who is the person you need to understand.

I'll work on understanding me. You work on understanding you. And we also can work on communicating to each other what we've each understood about ourselves and the cosmos.

This was clearer. You answered exactly the request that I had.Thank you.

Dear "known,"

Although admitting to Elizabeth W that his "post ending was a bit tongue-in-cheek...[b]ut also, fairly serious" (BH to Elizabeth W on 11/22/08 @ 12:00 PM), Brian ended his 11/21/08 essay, "Spiritual ego worse than worldly ego," by stating: "Now that you've read this post, leave me a comment. Tell me how much you love what I wrote! Make me feel good!...If you do, you'll feel good too. And that's what life is all about."

To me he further stated: "I adore pleasure. I like getting what I like. I much prefer praise to criticism. Yes, that's me" (on 11/23/08 @ 10:09 AM [in Comments on the same essay]).

Perhaps this helps.

Robert Paul Howard

Tucson,

Yes, I have been to the Shiprock area, several times. Vacationing, with a wonderous "emotional/educational" experience of the plutonic and volcanic formations, located there. From a volcanic core or neck, One can usually find dikes, radiating from its center.

Dikes - Dikes are tabular or sheet-like bodies of magma that cut through and across the layering of adjacent rocks. They form when magma rises into an existing fracture, or creates a new crack by forcing its way through existing rock, and then solidifies. Hundreds of dikes can invade the cone and inner core of a volcano, sometimes preferentially along zones of structural weakness.

In northeastern New Mexico, One can find Capulin Volcano National Monument. Capulin is a text book example of a Cinder cone.

New Mexico is totally kool.
Best wishes,
Roger

It pains me to see the type of comments being bandied about. Yes, there seems to be a problem with the West in Accepting Indian masters, and painting their inabilites as faults of the Guru. It is unpardonable sin.

Amrit,

It pains me to see the type of comments that you bandy about here.

Yes, there seems to be a very big problem with foolish Indians like you who blindly believe in fraudulent masters, and who paint a very false and illusory idea of what Guru actually is.

It is an unpardonable lie.


Whats your nationality? 'TAo' ?

None of your damn business Amrit.

And btw, whatever country I happen to be a citizen of, has absolutely no bearing whatsoever upon this issue of guru-cultism.


Amrit,

All you should do is attend to your daily bhajan and simran, obey the master and not only the West but you should make the whole world know the greatness of the great masters, the private interviews of Maharaj Charan Singh with Maharaniji (his wife) in Dalhousie and of Gurinder Singh with his wife, the acquisitions of lands for satsang ghars in cities like Bombay, Poona, Indore, Delhi, Jaipur etc, the harmonious relations of Baba Gurinder Singh with Kuku and Rana (sons of Maharaj Charansinghji) and then all these comments will be no more painful to you. Btw, did Gurinder Singh obtain Spanish nationality.

Well, Juan and Amrit, how lovely and cosy that all sounds.

Lots of harmonious get togethers with the masters and their families.

Never mind how difficult it is to even get a reply from Mr Gurinder to a letter nowadays and how even more difficult it is to have a personal interview with him! And you wonder why some of us become disillusioned?

Hi zenjen,
Do you think Juan being serious?His message is a bit ambiguos and maybe it is dripping with sarcasm.
I am not sure.
Are you being serious Juan?
Thanks
Obed

Yes Obed, I think unfortunately Juan is quite serious. Its so sad how some folks can be such disgustingly gullible suckers of the guru-scam and go about spreading their memes and propaganda.


Hi tAo,
Thanks.So sad.
regards
Obed

hi everyone

i was a strong believer of rssb cos of my parents who r the followers ,until now. i am not an initiate either. but this is the first time i have read critiscism about rssb.All i can say is my belief has been shattered

I hate mud-slinging but the total autocratic way, things are handled, the absolute blind faith of followers which gives them the wrong notion of getting away with any wrong, disregard towards non-followers including even dear family members proves the hollowness of RSSB.Such words"The Master rules the whole world" on his photo hung prominently in homes shows the decrepit mind of followers encouraged, endorsed and promoted by the Master.Any sane mind will like to probe why only family members/sikhs have come to occupy the so-called exalted position.Is there none else so spiritual?

Thanks a billion to the person who has hosted this information about the Radhasoami's. I would like to share my own story.

I belonged to a family which strongly believed in the DAYALBAGH branch of the Radhasoami's. It was only when I saw the great depths of brain washing and deceit done in the name of God/Guru that I realized my mistake in believing them. This website points most of the important observations about RSSB which are similar to my observations and experiences about the DAYALBAGH Radhasoamis. Unfortunately my parents and brother are so much brain-washed that they still continue to blindly follow that path even though I can clearly see that they suffer tremendously.

I suggest to seekers to read more about the teaching of Ramana Maharshi, Jiddu Krishnamurty, Nisargadatta, Eckert Tolle etc. and not be caught up in this deceit full cult of selfish people.

Regards.
Prem Saran.

Prem Saran

Please write about your own experiencesand be specific. General statements like yours are not conducive to discussion.

PLEASE LODGE FIR AND PUBLIC INTEREST LITIGATION AGAINST THIS MAFIA CULT TO PROTECT TRUTH . ONLY BRAVE CAN BE HAPPY SO TAKE ACTION ALONGWITH WRITING AT THIS BLOG . I WILL BE ONE OF THE WITNESS .GOD IS WITH TRUTH .

I was just at the center in Petaluma, CA today where Baba Ji (Gurinder Singh) gave a discourse over the past three days.

My whole extended family has been "following" this for generations. But most (all) of them do not truly follow the faith even though they make claims and deceive society into making folks think they are following it. They are immoral and they lie and gossip every instance they get. This is turn has shaken my faith in this path.

I don't know what to believe anymore. When I discuss this with my colleagues, they state something like "oh, its good that you see your relatives are like that...that means God wants you to see how evil this world is and he has chosen you to witness this," etc, etc.

I seriously don't know what to do anymore. If to follow in the footsteps of the rest of my family and get initiated, or "enjoy" my life.

Well, there could be followers of Gurinder that are enjoying their lives. There could be persons that are miserable that appear to be enjoying their lives. First, figure out why you are Konfused. Then proceed in any direction, in your life. Your life, may or may not be yours.

Konfused,

I would not get initiated until all your doubts are resolved. To be initiated and still have doubts will add guilt on top of them.

Continue to study various avenues of spirituality and philosophy, and by all means enjoy life without restricitions set by a path/religion you are unsure of.

Your scepticism is a healthy sign and shows you are thinking outside the 'herd' mentality. Frankly, I don't know how any thinking person can accept this path without reservation. There is just so much dogma that simply can't be verified. The excuse given is that it will be revealed one day in meditation, but what if it isn't?

It would be a shame to go through life avoiding mayonnaise at all costs only to realise at the end it was unnecessary.

yeah
because you know,
the stuff of the universe is fundamentally made out of mayonnaise.
you must be a brave soldier of spirituality to be able to avoid the uni-mayonnaise and achieve amayo-vana.

"The Buddha
has said the atoms then are not atoms. These are called atoms.
World Honored One,the Tathàgata has said that the trichiliocosm of worlds then is not worlds. These are called worlds. And why? If the worlds were really existent, then these would appear as a single entity.

The Tathàgata has said that the appearance of a single entity is not the appearance of a single entity. This is called a single entity." from the Diamond Sutra

For many satsangis the strict vegetarian diet becomes a focal point in their Sant Mat religious practices.

This is partly because of the intriguing novelty of it, especially in the beginning years, and also because the diet is one of the few tangible aspects of the RS path. Meditation is often dry and unproductive and the master is inaccessible flying around somewhere in his private jet.

The thing about the diet is that it is very inflexible. It is not enough that a satsangi must attempt reasonably to avoid flesh and eggs. The satsangi is expected to go to great lengths to avoid the prohibited foods or even fractions of them. For example, there are now official lists put out by the organization of approved brands of cheese that do not contain animal source rennet. (Rennet is an enzyme, usually obtained from the stomach lining of ruminants like cows, which enables milk to coagulate into cheese.)

Even mayonnaise is not allowed because it is made with eggs although the amount of egg in a typical serving of mayonnaise is very small. Same with pankakes, cookies, muffins and other bakery products. Some pie crusts and mexican refried beans may contain lard.

So, the satsangi is kept very busy being fastidious about avoiding these items and inquiring in restaurants about the ingredients in various foods. This goes beyond the concern for animal welfare and incurring unfavorable karma. It goes into the realm of fanaticism which makes normal social interaction around meals inconvenient and awkward.

Once we were invited to the beach with some acquaintances. They knew we were vegetarians and went to the trouble to make vegetarian sandwiches they thought we could eat. Unfortunately, they used mayonnaise and we had to refuse their kind gesture. They were nice about it, but you know they thought we were a bit "off the deep end". We spent the day munching on carrot sticks while they ate the sanwiches. I feel that more disharmony and bad karma, if you will, was created by refusing the sandwiches than if we had eaten them in a spirit of camaraderie and sharing.

This incident was actually one of the catalysts that led to my disinvolvement with Sant Mat along with some other more significant issues.

Is consumption of maybe 1/16 of an unfertilized egg going to create an unbearable karmic burden that will block spiritual progress for perhaps lifetimes?

I don't think so, but many satsangis do indeed fear such a result.

so, Tuscon,
because you had to munch on carrot stics instead of eating a sandwhich, you felt sad. And you also felt sad because you dissapointed your friends.
How many picnics have you been with them after that?
If none, then, it was a one time situation.
If you went many other times since then, did they continue putting mayo in the sandwhich?
It is difficult to be at the beach, with the sky and the ocean forming a fuzzy horizon that extends in the infinite, with a golden sand underneath your body and the wind from the sea reminding of you of the salty water,,,,and you to munch on carrot sticks. Just think of yourself to be a bunny, and you could have been on bunny paradise.

it it,

I was not sad, I was annoyed and embarrassed by the silliness of this dietary restriction I had bought into.

Why should I be concerned with fractions of eggs, or buckets of eggs for that matter?

What is your point if you have one? Being here now?

I understand that, but at the time (30 years ago) such a perspective was occluded by the obsession with egg particles.

Satsangis, what do egg bits have to do with anything? Where is the evidence that they bar the doors to your salvation?

Awareness is present, egg bits or not.

dont eat the sandwhich and move on.
eat the sandwhich and move on.
dont get drown in mayonnaise.

What do egg bits have to do with anything?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I_Inho6aRU

and after they take their eggs...
pamela anderson tells the rest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVxv7PPGZqg

and from http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5469

Global egg production doubled between 1990 and 2005. 1 By then, some 64 million tons of eggs were produced worldwide (less than 1 percent more than in 2004).2 (See Figure 1.) Today there are approximately 4.93 billion egg-laying hens in the world, each capable of producing up to 300 eggs per year.3 By 2015, world egg production is expected to reach 72 million tons, according to the U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO).4

Like I said above you have to be a brave soldier of spirituality to be able to avoid the uni-mayonnaise and achieve amayo-vana.

It is a matter of consiouss everyday awareness of being. I do not eat eggs. The why is simple, and it is not only "just because." There is a whole array of reasons why, compassion would first come to mind.

It is the question, 'why dont I eat eggs now? here with my friends, and everybody is doing it, and I am eating carrots instead, and making them feel bad'. The question itself is complicated, it is complication, but the answer to it does not need to be.
It it or dont it, dont womble around it. It is not the eggs which bar you the doors of salvation, it is the thinking about egg bits that has that ability, to create the concept of salvation and entrap you within it.

Since you ended with such a cool line, I will try to end with one as well,

Awareness is neither present or absent, eggs are either or.

more from:
http://news.in.msn.com/columns/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1343084

http://agriworld.nl/public/file/pdf/20070912-24_wp_eggproduction.pdf

it it,

I understand vegetarianism very well having spent decades on a primarily vegan diet.

I also understand the inflexible, obsessive and compulsive adherence to the dogmatic dietary belief of a particular cult called RSSB which is what I was addressing above.

You wrote: "It is not the eggs which bar you the doors of salvation, it is the thinking about egg bits that has that ability, to create the concept of salvation and entrap you within it."

--Exactly. I hope the RS satsangis heard you.

Well to the satsangis I would say that I do not eat eggs and than is it on the matter.

Thanks guys. I guess I need to do a lot more soul searching and research into this path to see what is right for me. I was never a serious follower in the first place. While the rest of my family didn't, I ate meat and drank alcohol. But I gave that up for about three years when I went to college. One day, I looked at my peers and thought "if they could eat meat and drink, then why can't I? They seem to be enjoying their lives, and I am the one who is always left out." So, I started eating meat and drinking (socially of course) again.

But I've been reading Brian's book, "Life is Fair" and have decided to give up meat and drinking for good. But I am really, really gonna miss those in-n-out animal style fries!!! They have thousand island dressing, which contains eggs :(

"it it and dont it it" said:

"to the satsangis I would say that I do not eat eggs and than is it"

-- That's entirely your choice... However, I am an initiated satsangi as well, and I DO eat eggs. I eat whatever I damn well choose to eat because I am free from dietary taboos and also food is simply food... and (other than the pros and cons to physical health), what I eat has to do with anything else. I am not a prisoner of that belief system.

ssssh, Brian wrote that book under the cultic influence of RSSB. He doesn't even follow whats written there or does he :)


Eggs are really a great food for those who don't want to eat meat but find that they need high quality animal protein in order to feel their best. Many people who don't tolerate milk products can often eat eggs.

I used to have a horse ranch with a chicken coop that wasn't being used. A friend who was moving needed to do something with her chickens and they ended up in my coop, about ten of them. No rooster, but the hens kept laying eggs anyway. There the eggs were just sitting there. No chicks were going to hatch because they were unfertilized and no hen was harmed by laying them. Now what would be wrong with eating these eggs? Why let them rot?

These chickens lived a good life. They got to run around on the property scavenging for whatever in addition to the grain and kitchen scraps we gave them. Then they would return to roost at night in the coop. I enjoyed those birds and they were tame. Kids could play with them. Also with all the chickens running around the horses were less skittish on the trail about small animal movements and sudden bird flights.

Finally when we had to move I found another home for them. No harm done for those eggs, don't you agree?


Hi Guys,

Ok, I keep getting more konfused. I am not eating meat because I feel like I am causing harm and suffering to the animal.

But, I mean, aren't plants also living? Are we causing it to suffer as well? Even though we do not see it express that suffering? What makes an animal superior to a plant?

konfused, try strangling a head of lettuce growing in the ground. Then try strangling an also-live human (not to death, but forcefully, if you can find a willing victim).

That will answer your question about whether vegetables suffer, and how humans react to suffering. As to animals being "superior," we're talking about the suffering of sentient creatures. Vegetables aren't sentient, so don't suffer.

The usual response given is that life has different values. I think we sense this naturally, the life of a human child is certainly more than a dog, Brians life may be worth more than a rat, and so on. On this scale, plants are the lowest value life forms, and so cause the least harm when that life is taken. I am unsure whether life is taken at all when a leaf from a tree is plucked, I would imagine not, any more than hairdressers take any level of human life in their profession. So it is that irrespective of belief in karma or such ideas, eating meat causes less suffering than eating leaves from a tree. Irrespective of Sant Mat, causing suffering is not good, so a diet of eating those foods that result in less suffering, direct or indirect, must be preferred.

Really not sure about Brians test -- what would squeel more, strangling the head of a rat or strangling the head of Brian?
Both would scream and bite, but as a measure of value of life, Brian has some interesting (I know, tongue in cheek) methods.

Nice website. I once belonged to the Dayalbagh RS society which I eventually quite after seeing through their lies and deceit.

This society basically indulges in what I would call "self-hypnosis". First the "subject" is conditioned/pre-programmed with mammoth amounts of fantastic ideas/images/concepts about secret worlds, lords and masters etc.

Secondly they are told that the secret to entering these worlds is by serving unconditionally the GURU for all your life. Every thing else in your life is secondary, and this enlightened being, aka GURU, should become your primary focus. As Jiddu Krishnamurty mentioned "Man uses the Guru as a crutch" is exactly what I saw happening in this closed society.

This Dayalbagh RS society believes, not surprisingly, that they are the CHOOSEN ONES. They will be saved and others are doomed. They are special (at cost of others - exclusiveness). Members are encouraged to donate money, property and most importantly life times of service in belief that in another life they will be rewarded.

Within this society their are families of past GURUs who are designated special status - as holy families and get special treatment at the cost of other naive non-holy family members.

Oh ! what a fool I was to believe all this.

I continued my search for many many years and realized a few things:

1. Your beliefs drive what you experience in life. This includes so called spiritual experiences.

2. Change your beliefs and you will see your experiences also changing accordingly !

3. Whatever changes - is temporary in nature and is not permanent truth.

4. To know the absolute truth one needs to go beyond ALL Beliefs. This means beyond all concepts and percepts.

5. When you relax in this state for some time, i.e. become absolutely still in your day to day doings and goings ... then the absolute truth will dawn. Then you shall understand it all.

Make your stand only after you understand ... it all. Otherwise and until then, just relax, be steady and calm. Be good for the sake of goodness - not for rewards, heavens or virgins :)

My experiences in life have backed the above points. Subsequently I can say that Ramana Maharshi's teaching come closet to explaining it all.

Nisargadatta's "I Am That" is probably the quantum theory of spirituality.

Other good reading materials are :

1. Eckert Tolle's "The power of now"

2. Tao Te Ching by Stephen Mitchell

3. google videos of Papaji or poonja.

4. google videos of Mooji.


Have a good day & nice reading.

Remember to believe yourself and always be ready to be open to new ideas :)

Also, drink, but do not drink and drive :-)

Cheers !!!

Good comment Amit, also your other one. I hope Manish Arora and others read them and more importantly...hear them.

Amrit,
nice comment.

People are so desperate to be SAVED that they will believe whatever offers them hope and sant mat definately offers hope.

Once you fall into the trap - you are pretty much doomed because you now truly believe that you have to meditate to be saved and you fail to get results because you are unable to live up to the high standards set - like for example to have no lust, anger, greed, attachment and pride.

So you struggle and struggle and years go by and you get no results.

In the end - you just leave it up to the master - and hope he comes at the time of your death and saves you.

Most santangis are just hoping the master will come and save them.

Breaking free is almost impossible because you really belive that sant mat is the absolute truth and non-duality appears to be just another theory.

The truth can never be realized until you first give up all the un-truths you hold (the false beliefs)

After reading all this blablabla I"ll say a few things in response.My home town is only 30 miles from Bias and I am NOT a follower of Radha Suamis. But, I do know a lot of people who have benefitted. Many have stopped drinking and causing problems in the families. People can go to the hospital and get free treatments no matter how serious their condition may be as happened to one of my neighbors.Over all Radha Suamies are good people. If we had majority of such people in Punjab and India we would not have the fueds and violence that we have going on.I am thankful for their way of teaching which is more practical for the average Indian person.I know many Radha Suamies who are good and simple people. I have not met ONE that I could say anything negative. This is all I need to know not other blablabla.

Shashi, Morality has got nothing to do with any religion. I know a NGO, who did an amazing job in Andhra Pradesh, helping people getting out of alcoholism and made them better human beings. It doesn't mean that people should start worshiping the NGO head. RSSB ask for a lot more. They make you mental slave. The effect of all this mental illnesses show up much later in life.

Sapient I think you are the slave of your own mind here, you like to see bogeymen where none exist. Shashi remarked what he has perceived with his own eyes, while you persist in seeking for indoctrination because your mind is saturated with it, yet you have not even an iota of true perception, while perhaps Shashi has.

Ashy, What if it is YOUR mind that is indoctrinated?

All of you idiots who don't belive in radhasoami is the mossssssssssstttttttttt unlucky people in the whole universe. no one is unlllllluuuuuuuccckkkkky like you.if you want your welfare come in radhasoami satsang.I have seen many miracles of radhasoami sents.he saved me in accident & his many followers.radhasoami sants is the only in whole universe.sachkhand is our real home.If you donot belive in radhasoami realy you are very very unlucky persons

Brian, isn't it against the blog policy to preach about a religion on this blog?

Meher, Stop preaching unless you share what you call miracles or luck being a satsangi :)

I was recently saved, completely untouched,from a major accident while driving 65miles/hour on a freeway. I would call it alertness of mind and bit of luck/coincidence. Oh no, isn't heartbreaking for you to know that people who don't believe in RSSB are lucky too:)

And by the way, one of my satsangi friend broke his leg in an accident recently. Wait, may be, he was supposed to die and babaji just bargained for a broken leg, or may be HE was trying to reduce his load of past life karmas by giving him suffering:)
Grace = love from HIM
Suffering = your karmas !!

sapient, yes, preaching is a no-no. I've left up a few preachy comments because this is a post about Radha Soami Satsang Beas, and if someone wants to defend his or her faith -- succinctly -- that's understandable. But Meher has made his point. So I agree: that's enough preaching.

In Bhagavad-Gita Lord SriKrishna says to Arjuna:
“I taught this immortal Yoga to Vivasvan (sun-god), Vivasvan conveyed it to Manu(his son), and Manu imparted it to (his son) Iksvaku. Thus transmitted to succession from father to son, Arjuna, this Yoga remained known to the Rajarisis (royal sages). It has however long since disappeared from this earth. The same ancient Yoga has this day been imparted to you by Me, because you are My devotee and friend, and also because this is a supreme secret”.
At this Arjuna said: You are of recent origin while the birth of Vivasvan dates back to remote antiquity. How, then, I am to believe that you taught this Yoga at the beginning of creation? Lord SriKrishna said: Arjuna, you and I have passed through many births. I remember them all, you do not remember.
1. Radha Soami Faith was founded by His Holiness Param Purush Puran Dhani Huzur Soamiji Maharaj on the prayer of His Holiness Huzur Maharaj who later on became second Spiritual Head of Radha Soami Faith. The prime object of the Radha Soami Faith is the emancipation of all Jeevas (Souls) i.e. to take the entire force of consciousness to its original abode. There is a tradition of succession of Gurus or Spiritual Adepts in Radha Soami Faith. I am one of them as is evident from the following facts or ….
“My most Revered Guru of my previous life His Holiness Maharaj Sahab, 3rd Spiritual Head of Radhasoami Faith had revealed this secret to me during trance like state.
HE told me, “Tum Sarkar Sahab Ho” (You are Sarkar Sahab). Sarkar Sahab was one of the most beloved disciple of His Holiness Maharj Sahab. Sarkar Sahab later on became Fourth Spiritual Head of Radhasoami Faith.
Since I don’t have any direct realization of it so I can not claim the extent of its correctness. But it seems to be correct. During my previous birth I wanted to sing the song of ‘Infinite’ (Agam Geet yeh gawan chahoon tumhri mauj nihara, mauj hoi to satguru soami karoon supanth vichara) but I could not do so then since I had to leave the mortal frame at a very early age. But through the unbounded Grace and Mercy of my most Revered Guru that desire of my past birth is being fulfilled now.”

A.K.Satsangi,

stop preaching your dogma. you posted an almost identical comment here last year. all you have done is to basically copy your previous comment, and then post it again.

its the very same dogma and the same nonsense about your supposed past life and past life guru etc etc.

get a clue. this is a churchless blog, not a satsang blog. if you want to preach sant mat, then go to a sant mat group or satsang.


tAo

If it's a churchless blog then you talk about your own ideological belief and don't spit a word against satsang.

No theory, philosophy or technique can lead you to be in that state. At the most, they can take you to the inquiry state, the journey beyond which is exclusive. No book, no teaching can go further. These can feed your inquiry. Once you yourself enquire into your own inner working, the function of the book is over. You take your own path. Till that time, you are simply gratified by books or teachers against your present state which you term as unsatisfactory.

AK, sounds like BS to me.

Anirudh Kumar Satsangi writes:

"If it's a churchless blog then you talk about your own ideological belief"

-- but i don't have any "ideological belief". and btw, churchless means (more or less) no beliefs... just facts. not religion.

"and don't spit a word against satsang."

-- why not? i do not have to be in favor of satsang. i can say or "spit" anything against satsang that i choose. and this is not a satsang site. what makes you think that "satsang" is off-limits?? it appears that you RS cult believers really do tend to have some mental problems.


who is right and who is wrong let the master explain.

mugerwa(who is right and who is wrong let the master explain)...try to visualize the face of the Master within and do the Simran, the repetition of the five Holy Names, and you will have all the answers inside.

tAo writes that other posters have mental problems-Ha! Ha! Now thats funny: Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!!

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