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December 03, 2008

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Great, something positive at last. Thanks Catherine.

That was very interesting and makes me want to find a good Vedic astrologer as I have had western astrologers do my chart as well as done a lot of them myself for awhile. When I was doing western astrology for friends or those who knew I could do it but I didn't know, a natal chart was amazing for how much it would tell. I did one for a man who was a seemingly very gentle man but had a lot of marital and family problems. It showed violence in his chart and I told him that thinking it must not fit. It turned out it did but not the physical kind. He was abusive emotionally to those around him and amazed the chart showed it. There were many stories like that.

I would personally call western astrology as more about math than an art. You use exact numbers and the more exact they are, the more accurate the reading will be and you see their connection to other numbers. Through even the western, a gifted astrologer can pick up on past lives including where they might have been geographically. When I was really into it, I did some past life work with the charts for possible connections between friends and what their stories back then and now would be. It's interesting but sounds like Vedic might do better at this than western.

Natal charts do progress so that what one is born with is just what they had for natural tendencies and life can impact that. I don't have much faith at all in daily horoscopes, but I do read an email thing that I get daily and read probably a couple of times a week-- mostly when I am feeling something and look to see if it's there (it usually is). The daily one is not for one sign or another. It tells you things like the recent Jupiter and Venus connection and what impact that might have on everyone in the world. It's amazing how often times of possible violence will show up in the newspapers.

As to why it would work. Some would say the creator of this universe is the ultimate mathematician (some would take that too far) and that mathematics can solve many world problems in science and life. I don't know why planetary influences at birth would make a difference in a person's talents or personalities but saw many times how it had. A gifted astrologer would take it much farther than I could. It can be scary when it gets into the predicting a time of death but I comfort myself that all of it is potential and we can do things to impact what would have been by choices we make.

"Now, after all that, I’m going to eat breakfast"

---Catherine, what kinds of food do you eat at breakfast?

Thanks for any helpful ideas,
Roger

Catherine,

Very interesting,

I would like to ask if the future prediction of other males born on the same date (1.08.1954) in Udaipur(Rajasthan) would be same, & had you lost faith in Babaji if your Vedic prediction was opposite of what it is.

Thanks,

Wow, we now find (vague) generalisations about anyone & everyone (animals too, or are they not worthy of Jyotish insights?) born on a certain day in a large Indian village to be 'very interesting'?

Hmmm. There really is one born every minute....

Utter tosh & piffle.

"As you can read below, she prepared a Jyotish analysis of Gurinder Singh and found that astrology confirms his guru status."

---Could a Jyotish analysis of Gurinder Singh be performed that confirms his "Godman" status? Or even Charan Singh?
I don't have a problem with someone being a guru, no big deal. However, a Godman, would be very interesting to have a confirmation. If this analysis, can do that, then, is there any need for SantMat meditation?

---Nothing wrong with J. Astrology. Sounds like a fun hobby or something to do to have some fun with. I do have some concerns, when One uses this "stuff" to reinforce their belief system.

Again, the God, should come to us with a way to "Know" God. Why the need for all the gimmicks and analysis?

Sorry, just thinking, a little.
Roger

I have to say: This Gurinder's Astrology thing is such friggin bullshit.

Astrology doesn't prove or validate that Mr Gurinder is a guru/master, any more than astrolgy proves that someone else is not a guru. It doesn't prove a god-damn thing.

It doesn't matter what the hell astrology says... even if it does indicate that someone may have tendencies to be spiritual, to be a spiritual teacher, or to be some kind of leader.

Astrology (of any damn kind) does NOT prove or confirm or establish that Gurinder is anything.

It may be "interesting" to some folks, but it does not mean or establih that he is a genuine guru. And in this case (and in any case), astrology doesn't really prove anything.

So I couldn't care less what Ms "Catherine" thinks about Gurinder, or how attached she is to trying to validate his supposed guru status.

Its a stupid and foolish endeavor as far as I am concerned, because it does not validate or confirm or legitimize anything about Gurinder.

Btw, no doubt there were many other people born at the same time and in the same general local as Gurinder was, and most likely NONE of them are anything close to being spiritual cult leaders.

And just because Gurinder is now the APPOINTED inheritor and current leader of a spiritual/religious cult, it doesn't make him so extrordinary, and it especially does not make him a genuine spiritual guru/master/sage.... no matter what his astrology says.

Gurinder is really just a guy who happened to inherit the family business. Nothing more. Just like a gy who inherits a family company that has thousands of employees and millions of customers. It simply does NOT make him a real guru, just because he inherited the business, or because some astrology says so.

So for all you Catherines and astrologers and guru-cultists out there... GET OVER IT!


tAo, you make some good points -- one of which is a devastating strike against the validity of astrology, no matter what variety.

Namely, the fact that supposedly every person born at a particular place and time will have the same chart. So, like you said, there could be quite a few gurus wandering around, babies born next to Gurinder Singh.

Recently I asked this very question of the woman doing my chart: "Wouldn't a baby born at the same hospital I was, just a few seconds apart, have the same astrological info as I would -- but his or her life and personality would be much different?"

She said, absolutely. Her attitude toward astrology made more sense (though like I said in the post, I'm still deeply skeptical about it). She sees astrology as pointing to certain tendencies, which our environment modifies in complex ways. Sort of like nature and nurture.

In Gurinder's case, Catherine didn't even have a birth time. So this extends his chart to include everybody born at that place in India on that day. I suspect that if they were tracked down, we'd only find one guru in the bunch -- which casts deep doubt on the predictive value of astrology.

Astrology, like many intuitve arts is really just symbology. Certain planetary relationships "symbolise" traits, tendencies, activities but they are not things in themselves. That is, a person with their moon in Cancer for example, is not necessarily going to be sensitive or domestically inclined. That configuration just symbolises those traits to an astrologer and other planetary aspects must be taken into consideration as to how they would modify the intensity of that single planetary relationship. What I am getting at is that Astrology is not science at all, but is merely a tool that stimulates intuition. Whether that intuition is accurate or not depends upon the skill of the astrologer. As we know, sometimes psychics are correct and sometimes not.

Astrology may be the prefered "intuitive" tool for some, but it is in no way superior in accuracy or reliability than reading tea leaves, tarot cards, palmistry or animal entrails as used by some indigenous tribes.

Some psychics/intuitives even feel that all these sybombolic arts are really just rudimentary tools used by those who have not yet developed the ability of direct intuitive perception. Sort of like training wheels on a bicycle that the child uses before learning to independently ride a two-wheeler.

So, the symbolic interpretation of Gurinder Singh's astrological chart will vary from one astrologer to another. Without prior knowledge of who the chart belongs to, and the preconditoning that goes with that foreknowledge, interpretations will vary. Studies have been done which demonstrate exactly what I just said. And this is why astrology has no respect in the scientific community. Results are reliable only in their inconsistency.

Has anyone gone to an astrologer who was 100% accurate about everything they said? No, but the astrologer may be correct about several things and then people think, oh how wonderful the astrologer is.

You could hand my chart to an astrolger and ask them to describe my life and characteristics. Some will say I am female, others will say I am male. Some will say I am a good athlete or a musician or impatient or courageous, fastidious or accident prone, or mathematically inclined and a myriad of other qualities, talents and tendencies. No doubt if they throw out enough information, some of it will be correct.

It is interesting in the case of twins who are born at almost the same identical time and of course place. They have studied the lives of such twins who were separated early in life and raised in different locations. Remarkably, in the case of some of the twins, their lives had very similar patterns and parallels, but other twins had very different lives, vocations, talents and circumstances which sort of blows astrological theory apart.

Ultimately, for all its apparent sophistication and mathematically calculated planetary angles, transits and effects of eclipses, orbital eccentricities, etc. on those relationships, an astrological chart is no more than the mind that interprets it and all the prejudices, preferences, and preconditionings that go with that mind.

Think of this. How many astrologers have obseverved the charts of various supposed holy men, gurus and masters? I don't know, but I imagine that it has been done many times. Do these astrologers unanimously agree and bow at certain astrologically proven guru's feet in eternal obeisance?

Perhaps Catherine Muller should reveal Gurinder's chart to the astrological community. Will they all drop everything and head to Beas and the promised land in regions beyond comprehension with their newly found savior? I doubt it.

Brian,

Is it possible to contact Catherine, thru e-mail, and ask her to offer some responses to the comments, made above? It would be nice to read some justifications for her views.

---To help out, Catherine stated,

"If I wanted to know whether anyone was likely to be a charlatan I would look at their birth planets according to the Vedas to make my assessment (in other words, Jyotish enables one to see very clearly and objectively if someone is guru material or not.) After all, it’s a 7000 year-old system. They must have got a couple of things right?"

---Tao and Tucson
You two, surely can find a couple of things right with Jyotish Astrology. After all, it's a 7000 year-old system. Think a little, seven thousand is a really big number. When was the last time, you (2) counted up to five hundred?

Thanks for any positive responses,
Roger

Roger, sure, I'll ask Catherine to dive in to the comment discussion. If she wants to, she will. If she doesn't, she won't.

Brain,

If you desire, ask Catherine,

---If she is an Initiate of Gurinder's SantMat?
---Was she initiated before turning the age of 32? I'm assuming, she started her Vedic/Jyotish astrology at age of 32.
---Assuming she is initiated, did she discuss her involvement with astrology, with her RSSB leaders in S. Africa? What was their advice to her?
---Again, assuming she is an Initiate, how does her progress in her meditations, blend spiritually with Astrology?

None of this is a big deal, however, the connection of Astrology (in her words) with a Science of the Soul, would be interesting to observe.

Thanks,
Roger

Hi there, this is Catherine Muller writing.

Thank you Brian for posting my email and thank you too for taking the time to read it. I have read all the responses to date.

Vis a vis Gurinder Dhillon, I think all have made up their own minds, n'est-ce pas?

Personally, I find any attempts to 'convert' or 'convince' anyone of anything most distasteful. As the French say, 'one does not argue about taste or colours'. For me, my spiritual choices and choices around Vedic astrology are a matter of personal taste. Each to his or her own, I believe. The mark of a civil community is the capacity for respect and tolerance.

As mentioned, I have been studying Jyotish for 5 years and will likely continue to study it for the rest of my life - I enjoy it that much! My astrological exercise with Gurinder Dhillon's birth data was exactly the same as ones I've performed for Barack Obama, John McCain, South Africa's current acting President, my friends and colleagues ... It's what Jyotishis do. One does charts all the time for practice.

At this point, I should state my absolute respect for my Vedic astrology teacher, Dennis Flaherty, whose sharp Boston wit is a delight. I equally relish the work of Prashant Trivedi (as mentioned); Dr Charak (Vedic astrologer and head of surgery at a major hospital in Delhi); Joni Patry; Bill Levacy; Kamilla Sutton; Andrew Bloomfield; Rob Berger ... boy, now that I write them down, there are quite a few :-)

For the predictions of astrologers that have come to pass (both Vedic and Western) the internet is populated with so many of these. You'll find them. You'll also find many folks who believe it's all a load of hooey.

In terms of how one lives one's life and what one believes, I don't think one can fault another's experience because, in the end, our own observations are all we have to go on. Here are some of mine:

I have found the Sant Mat meditation practice really fulfilling, although I at times struggle with falling asleep (lol!)

I am a less impatient person when I meditate. I get less stressed, I drive slower, I think in a more ordered way, I feel kinder towards the world, I have better sleep, I have more vivid dreams. In my 37 years I've experienced many things - to do with Sant Mat and not to do with Sant Mat - that have made me go 'wow!' and made me understand that the more I think I know about the Creation the less I actually do.

I have been to Dera twice and found the hospitality I encountered there most humbling. The quality of free medical care on offer to locals is extraordinary.

When I have spent time in Gurinder Dhillon's company in the evening questions and answers sessions I have found him to have a fantastic sense of humour; to be engaging and thoughtful in his responses; and to be an utterly credible and dignified human being.

At this point, I will say that in Sanskrit there is a concept of "shruti" meaning "the truth of the spoken word". In my spiritual practice, I only go by what I have heard Gurinder Dhillon say with my own ears.

So, based on what I have personally heard, Gurinder Dhillon has stated these caveats:

- Sant Mat is not the only way.
- One absolutely has to question the teachings.
- One absolutely has to question the teacher.

As mentioned, I find Sant Mat meditation extremely enjoyable; the diet is great from an ethical, health and environmental point of view (I choose not to wear leather); and the moral guide-lines around right thought, right action, right deed are very helpful.

Brian, you suggest I should 'reveal' Gurinder's chart to the astrological community. Well, what I wrote is no secret in India where Jyotish is practised by scores, so I am thinking it won't be much of a revelation.

However, when you write: "Will they all drop everything and head to Beas and the promised land in regions beyond comprehension with their newly found savior? I doubt it" I am afraid I should point out the word 'saviour' does not feature in my original email, nor the notion of 'a promised land'. This particular spin is yours.

As stated, I love Jyotish and the practice of Vedic astrology. This is akin to someone loving the music of Miles Davis or the films of Peter Weir. To invoke the French again, it all comes down to taste, doesn't it? I have nothing to prove. And if I were to be swayed by every contrary opinion that presented itself that would make me a pretty insubstantial human being, I think.

I wish you all well walking to the rhythms of your own drums.

To close, I'm afraid I don't have the time for a response more detailed than this one. I have a mountain of work to get through before my start of my year-end summer holiday. However, google will give you every kind of answer you want, I'd imagine. Thank you.

All the best,
C
Catherine Muller
Johannesburg, South Africa

PS: I have received numerous notifications of my Naymz profile being visited. (Naymz emails me automatic alerts). To save you the google, here it is: http://www.naymz.com/search/catherine/muller/1555779

Catherine, I wasn't the one who wrote the comment about revealing the chart to the Sant Mat community, etc. That was tucson.

Ah yes, thank you for that Brian H.. You're right. I misunderstood / mid-read the order of names. (Either that, or I need glasses!)

> Jyotish enables one to see very clearly
> and objectively if someone is guru
> material or not.

Whether this actually true or not is so simple to test. Say that instead of collecting the data for this guru Baba-Ji herself, Catherine had gotten someone else to retrieve it (the time and place of birth). Then, this other person could retrieve info for 9 other people who definitely did NOT become gurus of any sort.

Given these 10 astrological charts, could Catherine have then distinguished which one was the guru? If so, that would be some meaningful evidence. If not, it just means that if you START with the belief that someone is a guru, it's possible to find astrological thinking to rationalize the pre-existing belief.

It's like if someone asks you your sign, and you say "Cancer, Gemini rising," and they say, "I knew it!" That doesn't show anything. If they could tell you that info BEFORE you told it to them, that'd be something.

> After all, it’s a 7000 year-old system.
> They must have got a couple of things
> right?

When you're in a state of ignorance, then it may not be a bad strategy to believe or follow whatever's been around for a long time. It's not bad as a default stance... but it's far far from totally reliable. There are some really, really stupid things they used to believe 1000s of years ago. (Hardly anyone deals with illness by getting "bled" anymore.)

When you're a child, blinding believing what your parents believed makes sense. When you become an adult, capable of critical thinking, you've got more effect strategies available.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm

Dear all,

This is Catherine Muller again.

I am rushing to finish work (as mentioned) but a thought popped into my head and I was inspired to do a quick little astrological exercise for your collective amusement (or derision) using myself as the subject this time.

As you're aware, the Greek philosopher Heraclitus, stated that one can never step into the same rive twice. Each moment in time is absolutely unique.

So, I decided this time to cast a Western-style horary chart (from the Greek 'horos' - meaning, 'of the hour') for the exact moment when I asked the question:

'Is Vedic astrology the right practice for me?'

(To give you some indication, I had spent much of the evening typing away on a script before this notion presented itself.)

The horary chart was cast for the exact minute, day, place this question came into my head. ( Much the same way the I Ching works for acknowledging the uniqueness of the moment. )

In casting the chart I used a system of the Arabic Parts - the house where my Part of Fortune would lie would indicate the answer. If the Part lay in a detrimental house, I'd take it as a No. If it lay in a fortunate one, I would take it as a Yes.

Right, so I cast the chart for my question and the Part of Fortune lies at 22 degrees Gemini in the 9th house. (I'm afraid you'll have to simply accept that I am being totally honest about this.)

For an interpretation of the Part in the 9th, I googled and found this statement so you can be sure it's not mine.

Source: http://www.horoscopeswithin.com/partoffortuneinhouses.php

Question: 'Is Vedic astrology the right practice for me?'

Answer: " Part of Fortune in 9th House
Happiness will come from a search for truth and the deep study of such subjects as sociology, psychology, religion and metaphysical law. There is also a possibility of distant travels. "

Well, as I say, rather amusing. Given that I believe there are no co-incidences, I'd take that as a yes. Thanks, Heraclitus.

best wishes, C
Catherine Muller
Johannesburg
South Africa

What I like about Catherine is her civil, fair, and non-confrontational manner. She believes what she believes but is not dogmatic about it. It is people like this we can have a good conversation with.

She said in the following paragraphs:

"In terms of how one lives one's life and what one believes, I don't think one can fault another's experience because, in the end, our own observations are all we have to go on. Here are some of mine:

"I have found the Sant Mat meditation practice really fulfilling, although I at times struggle with falling asleep (lol!)

"I am a less impatient person when I meditate. I get less stressed, I drive slower, I think in a more ordered way, I feel kinder towards the world, I have better sleep, I have more vivid dreams. In my 37 years I've experienced many things - to do with Sant Mat and not to do with Sant Mat - that have made me go 'wow!' and made me understand that the more I think I know about the Creation the less I actually do.

"I have been to Dera twice and found the hospitality I encountered there most humbling. The quality of free medical care on offer to locals is extraordinary.

"When I have spent time in Gurinder Dhillon's company in the evening questions and answers sessions I have found him to have a fantastic sense of humour; to be engaging and thoughtful in his responses; and to be an utterly credible and dignified human being.

"At this point, I will say that in Sanskrit there is a concept of "shruti" meaning "the truth of the spoken word". In my spiritual practice, I only go by what I have heard Gurinder Dhillon say with my own ears."

--tucson speaking now:

At this point I would say that much of what Catherine said is my experience as well, but I think we have to admit that none of it proves that Gurinder or Charan (who initiated me) are perfect saints with all the mystical powers attributed to them.

I am the one who used the terminology "savior" and "promised land". I can be guilty of a little sarcasm (probably in my chart somewhere) but that is exactly what a Sat Guru is: a savior of lost souls, and Sach Khand is the "promised land" in Sant Mat. It is said to be the goal, our true home, etc.

My question for Catherine is this: It is said throughout Sant Mat teachings that they go beyond, transcend or originate from a higher place than the Vedas which originate in Brahm. Sant Mat gurus supposedly access a spiritual region several stages or more higher than Brahm. In that case, how is Vedic Astrology able to determine if a Sant Mat guru is indeed genuine and has access to those higher regions?

astrology=bogus=pseudo-science=utter, utter crap.

Hello,

This is Catherine Muller writing.

JJQ:

You're absolutely entitled to your thoughts.

However, if one is going to say with emphatic conviction that a particular practice - for example, astrology, - is bunk, then the onus would be on one to explain why it can also be most accurate?

Here is a recent example to hand:

If you wish, please email me directly ( http://www.naymz.com/catherine_muller_1555779 ) and I shall email you a Vedic astrology reading I did on October 2nd 2008 for someone whom I had only known in an extremely cursory and impersonal way and whom I will call JT.

You may read JT's astrological reading (it is a 10-page Word document) and then contact her via email to establish her views regarding (a) what I knew about her before the reading, and (b) how accurate the reading was.

What JT will tell you is that this reading identified something she had kept secret from her family and friends: namely, that she had a long history of bulimia.

The written reading I did for her says:

" This placement in the second house shows that you may have suffered from bulimia and felt certain insecurities around your physical appearance."

It goes on to say:

"... this can show problems / afflictions with the mouth, tongue, lips."

I subsequently found out she suffers from mouth ulcers.

As well as:

" you have the moon’s north node in the 8th house which can suggest skin ailments (for example, eczema) " .

She later revealed there had been chronic eczema linked to dairy allergies.

The reading then stated:

"If you have suffered from bulimia it is likely to have got better after the age of 22".

A later part of the reading stated:

" ... this basically suggests that your mother had a really rough time with much unhappiness in her relationship. This was the case from your birth until you were four years old and you certainly picked up on all of her feelings."

Apropos relationships, the reading said:

"You have a tendency to retain hurtful experiences of the past and then, in private moments, to revisit them and relive them. When people in relationships have hurt you and you feel heart-ache, you don’t let it go. In this way, you punish yourself."

On receiving my reading we spoke over the telephone and JT was utterly shocked.

JT confirmed the bulimia and stated she had managed to overcome the problem when she was 21 years old. She also confirmed her parents' very unhappy marriage and their divorce when she was a little girl; she confirmed her own troubled relationships.

How did this reading work? Am I psychic or clairvoyant? I believe the answer would be no more so than the next person. The reason for the accuracy was learning to apply a symbolic logic in a very step-by-step way.

What is interesting to note is that JT's curiosity had been piqued by my reading and she subsequently had a Vedic reading done by this gentleman:

http://www.astrologertrivedi.com/7267/index.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

JT confirmed that Mr Trivedi's reading and mine were in absolute accord, only mine was more detailed.

(This is typical for a beginner astrologer such as myself where one pores over detail. It's like Avis car hire principle: we try harder. Lol!)

Although Mr Trivedi is known to me, he did not know about my reading and I did not know of his until a month later.

STUART, I believe the above goes some way to offering an example of astrology revealing information I did not know.

TUCSON:
To answer your question (and this is relative to my limited understanding) I believe everyone on earth is governed by the same laws of creation when living on earth - including spiritual adepts.

The best example of this I could give you is in the 'Autobiography of a Yogi' in which Sri Yukteswar warns his student (Paramahansa Yogananda) of an impending planetary influence stating that it would be most detrimental to his health.

The prediction proved to be absolutely accurate and lasted for the predicted time period. However, through mantra and some interventions Yukteswar managed to ameliorate some of its effects and Yogananda suffered less.

I believe spiritual adepts are able to make these kinds of interventions. But of course, they are governed by the same laws of death and entropy that afflicts every living being on earth. In Sanskrit, the name for planet earth translates as 'the realm of death'.

ROGER:
I was initiated when I was 26 years old and have never discussed my astrological hobby with Gurinder Dhillon although we have exchanged letters on a number of other subjects.

For me, it is an incredibly enjoyable spare-time pursuit in which I learn a symbolic system that draws on the mythology of the Vedas.

When doing a reading I use my intuition; but for me this is no different to using one's intuition to find an empty parking space in the crowded parking bay of a shopping mall. (You know, your gut and take that left turn and there is the empty parking space behind the pillar ...)

All the best, with kind wishes, C

Catherine,

Thanks for your replies.

You stated,

"I was initiated when I was 26 years old and have never discussed my astrological hobby with Gurinder Dhillon although we have exchanged letters on a number of other subjects."

---Nothing wrong(imo)with having Astrology as a hobby. I have many hobbies, such as, blogging within this site. Your fun and enjoyment is yours to have.

"For me, it is an incredibly enjoyable spare-time pursuit in which I learn a symbolic system that draws on the mythology of the Vedas."

---Is there a link, from your career in films and photography, to Astrology and the SantMat teachings? Catherine, you seem to be mentally oriented towards "Creativity" in the Arts. Do these spiritual/symbolic activities enhance your creative mind?

---Maybe some right brain activity is in force here.

Anyway, thanks for your reply,
Roger


Dear all,

Just finished reading the "Jyotish astrology affirms RSSB guru" thread and felt compelled to throw in my two cents.

Before I say what I was going to say, let me clarify that I was initiated by the Master's representative in NYC about 12 years ago and as far as Vedic Astrology is concerned, I have not personally seen any conclusive evidence of its accuracy.

Having said that, I want to jump straight to the point that there is a basic contradiction in between Sant Mat and Vedic Astrology. According to Sant Mat, one is born with a certain karmic balance (Pralabdh) that one has to undergo -a certain mix of joy and misery that one cannot escape. Unless, of course, Sat Guru deems fit to intervene -which he does not under normal circumstances.

On the other hand, Vedic Astrology, allows one to mitigate the unfavorable planetary configurations (in effect the karmic misery) by chanting the proper mantras/offering propitiations to the appropriate planetary rulers/wearing prescription gemstones etc.

So, my question to the person who is a believer/practioner of both these sciences is: how does one deal with this apparent contradiction?

Thanks,

Sandeep Singh
[email protected]

Dear Sandeep,

Hello there, thanks a lot for your response and question. The honest answer is: I have absolutely no idea.

I am a Vedic astrology / Jyotish hobbyist and what I did was look at Gurinder Dhillon's birth data and read it from the moon for Guman, Rajasthan, and gave a straight interpretation accordingly ... How this fits in a bigger debate between Vedic lore and Sant Mat, I can't tell you.

I can refer you to Paramahansa Yogananda's book 'Autobiography of a Yogi' in which he gives Sri Yukteswar's explanation for how this works according to his opinion.

All the best, C
Catherine Muller

Dear Sandeep Singh,

You Said,

According to Sant Mat, one is born with a certain karmic balance (Pralabdh) that one has to undergo -a certain mix of joy and misery that one cannot escape. Unless, of course, Sat Guru deems fit to intervene -which he does not under normal circumstances.

Now my question is "Do you believe in this theory", if yes, then could you please go through a book RUHANI DAIRY- PART 1, published by RSSB, on page 100 and give me your comments.I think this book is in Hindi only.

Thanks

Dear Catherine,

I too am a Satsangi and I too have studied Vedic Astrology.

However, I regret to inform you that without the exact birth timing, you are just speculating.

Get his exact birth time. We will see later.

Not just that Catherine, I am a pedegree Saraswat Brahmin (where astrology is a way of life).

Hi Deepak,

Thanks, yes, an exact birth time would make all the difference. However, I've been taught by my teachers that insight can still be gained from the nakshatras and reading from the moon (chandra lagna). So, you're totally right - it's definitely an incomplete picture (because house positions are key) but still a potentially rich one ... Going by the padas (sub-divisions) I found it all very interesting. Hey, just a hobbyist ...

Nice to meet you, Deepak. All the best, C

@ Catherine,

In case you don't know, even Sawan Singh consulted an astrologer for Charan's marriage. Even Charan endorsed astrology though not in as many words.

Deepak,

You stated,

"In case you don't know, even Sawan Singh consulted an astrologer for Charan's marriage. Even Charan endorsed astrology though not in as many words."

--I wonder, how would anyone know that Sawan consulted an Astrologer? Is this consultation documented in any of Sawan's writings? As usual, this topic is no big deal, however, I wonder if Brian, Tucson and others, knew this when they joined the RSSB through initiation?

--Again, nothing against Astology, with that said, are there any documented (SantMat Guru) endorsments that the Regulars know of?

Thanks,
Roger

Hey Rog,
The only reference to astrolgy I ever heard from Charan Singh was that he thought there were very few good astrologers among the many.

Roger, I can't recall much mention of astrology in the RSSB writings. What little I remember seemed to be along the lines of "It works, but don't pay attention to it," or something like that.

There's quite a bit of non-scientific stuff in the RSSB literature. Evolution and the big bang are called into question here and there. Yet interestingly, a book I wrote for RSSB ("Life is Fair") approvingly talked of evolution and the big bang as facts.

So there's a variety of opinion among the RSSB faithful on every subject, including astrology.

@ Roger, Tucson and Brian,

There are documented references here and there.

I don' remember the exact contexts.

In the book -- The Master Answers --, Charan says that accurate prediction is possible but he doubts the existence of perfect astrologers these days. This is in response to a westerner's question on whether astrology works.

The one where Sawan is seen consulting an astrologer is in the book --With the Three Masters. The astrologer was -- of course - a satsangi. And he is surprised at Sawan's choice of the girl's horoscope as both horoscope are matched to perfection. Sawan only smiles as if astrology endorses the Perfect Master.

Deepak,

Thanks for the reply. As stated before, I have nothing against Astrology, of any kind.

However, you mentioned in your above comment,

"Charan says that accurate prediction is possible but he doubts the existence of perfect astrologers these days."

--Back in the days of Sawan and Charan, was there ever any mention of Sawan and Charan as a Godman? Would a Godman need an accurate prediction? Any way to distinguish between an astrologer and a "perfect" astrologer? The word perfect is popping up here.
--Would Catherine Mueller, a person I like, be classified as a beginning perfect astrologer?

Again, thanks for your reply.
Best wishes,
Roger

@ Roger,

In India, consulting an astrologer before marriage is a ritual which most of the traditionalists do not miss. Sawan may not have liked to violate this tradition, given the fact that he was from a traditional Indian family. That is why he might have referred the horoscope to the astrologer. When told that the horoscopes were matching perfectly, Sawan only smiled.

Personally, I have studied Vedic astrology, palmistry and face reading. Astrology runs in my family, even my father and grandfather were amateur astrologers. I have observed that it works to a large extent.

FYI, even Newton studied and believed in astrology.

I would say that Catherine Muller is still a student of astrology (judging by her response, no offence meant) because mastering astrology is a very difficult thing. It is akin to mastering martial arts -- takes a lot of dedication. But, I have been lucky enough to meet very good astrologers -- though the perfect yardstick is too much.

Regarding your question.
1). Back in the days of Sawan and Charan, was there ever any mention of Sawan and Charan as a Godman?
My Answer: Yes, Most of the Indians do believe that Godmen are born. And there are certain characteristics which differentiates them from the common men.

2. Would a Godman need an accurate prediction?
My answer: As I said earlier, Sawan was just playing to the gallery. He didn't want to upset his largely traditional family.

2. Any way to distinguish between an astrologer and a "perfect" astrologer?
My Answer: Yes, there is. But for that you have to learn astrology. For instance, I can recognise a good astrologer if I can observe and speak to him for a few minutes. There are certain signs of a good astrologer.

@ Catherine,
All said and done, I agree with you that Gurinder is endowed with a lot of Guru element by the standards of astrology.
FYI, I was initiated during the Rahu-Jupiter sandhi kal. Even my palm and horoscope has the protection of Jupiter. And I met Gurinder at a time when my chart was beginning to show a great influence of Jupiter. I even had personal experiences when I was initiated by Gurinder. So no regrets, I enjoyed being initiated.

However, I still find RSSB intellectually sloppy. Here, I have to agree with Brian.

Deepak,

Thanks again for your reply.

You stated in an answer,

"Most of the Indians do believe that Godmen are born. And there are certain characteristics which differentiates them from the common men."

---Could you write a comment, that discusses further details of a Godman and their unique characteristics?
---I'm not trying to make a big deal here. The topic of a Godman is interesting, and it is probably just a title bestowed by certain satsangi of the Sawan/Charan time period.
---Does the Godman title, come from Hindu religious teachings?

Thanks again,
Roger


Indians are gullible believers in "godmen".It's part of their genetic makeup just like eating curry.

Indians have no idea whether a godman is born. One silly idiot points out a "Godman" to another silly idiot who then points the same out to another silly idiot...adnauseum.

I don't know whow many idiots(critical number of suckers)are required to make a Godman out of a slick talking bloke with some knowledge of yoga, astrology, mythology and some level of chutzpah.

Jeez i'd love to be in such a position rather than a crummy old lab trying to find the cure to cancer!!

GODMAN:INDIAN OR WESTERN BOTH ARE EQUALLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE SUBJECT.TODAY THE WORLD IS MARKET AND YOU CAN FIND VARIOUS VARIETIES OF "GODMEN".THEY ARE NOT GODMEN BUT RELIGIOUS MERCHANDISE PUSHERS UNDER LIGHT AND SOUND-SANTMAT-RADHASWAMI-SATGURU-LIVING MASTER BRAND NAMES.KNOW FOR CERTAIN O NOT KNOWING PEOPLE-ORIENTAL OR OCCIDENTAL-GODMAN MEANS GOD+MAN-A MAN WITH POWERS-KNOWLEDGE-PRESENCE OF GOD-NO LESS-JUST LIKE NANAK-KABIR-RUMI-IBN ARABI-TULSI-SWAMIJI-SAWAN-KIRPAL-JAIMAL-JESUS.THEY ALL LEFT MIRACLES BEHIND THEM.GODMEN ARE NEVER MADE-INSTALLED-APPOINTED-CHOSEN BY VOTES.ANY ONE WORKING AS GODMAN BECAUSE OF A WILL IN HIS FAVOR BY HIS FATHER-UNCLE-COURT OR MOBRULE IS A JOKER-NOT GODMAN.FIRST-ONLY-QUALITY YOU MUST LOOK FOR IN A GODMAN IS GOD POWER OF KNOWING ALL OF YOUR PAST-PRESENT-FUTURE-AS GOD IN THE FORM OF A MAN.NEVER DOUBT THIS.HE WHO KNOWS NOT AND KNOWS NOT THAT HE KNOWS NOT-IS AN IGNORANT.AWAY FROM HIM.HE WHO KNOWS NOT BUT KNOWS THAT HE KNOWS NOT IS A SEEKER-HELP HIM.HE WHO KNOWS BUT KNOWS NOT THAT HE KNOWS-IS SLEEPING.AWAKEN HIM.HE WHO KNOWS AND ALSO KNOWS THAT HE KNOWS-IS A KNOWER-IS WISEMAN-GODMAN.FOLLOW HIM."SON KNOWS THE FATHER"-JESUS-"TRUE GURU KNOWS YOUR SECRET"-NANAK-"KABIR AND GOD ARE ONE"-KABIR-"GURU SATGURU KNOWS HIS DISCIPLE AND HIS GOOD AND BAD KARMAS"-SWAMIJI-"WE-GODMEN-SEE HUMAN HEARTS AS CLEARLY AS YOU SEE THINGS IN A GLASS JAR"-SAWAN-"DO WHAT YOU WANT BUT KNOW I SEE ALL YOU DO"-SHIRDI-"NO ONE CAN HIDE ANY THING FROM THESE EX-RAY EYES OF SAI"-SATYA SAI-"TO GODMEN PAST-PRESENT-FUTURE ARE AN OPEN BOOK"-KIRPAL.GOD BLESS YOU ALL.gframesch.

gframesch is a babbling fool.


@ Roger,
When I mean "God Man", it need not be a person of immaculate conception. It only means an evolved soul.

Well, these are the qualities of a Godman. I may sound like generalising. But these are

1. Equanimity : He is always composed and equanimous in both good and bad times.
2. Selfless, Optimistic leadership: He has faith in the potential divinity of man and in his presence people change for the better.

Now astrologically, I will tell you the signs.
1. If you observe his palm, his Jupiter mount is elevated and there is a mark of star or Square.
2. His personality. Broad shoulders with long hands extending even upto the knees. Mahatma Gandhi had this feature.
There are several other features which a matured astrologer can distinguish.

It is as if such persons are born just for the welfare of humanity and have no personal axes to grind.

@ Roger,

You asked: Does the Godman title, come from Hindu religious teachings?

In my opinion, probably there is a perversion in translation. The East knows Guru (spiritual Master) and Avatar (Godhead descending in human form).

Even if we go in the traditional Hindu format, there is nothing called as a "Godman" because both the avatar and the Guru have to suffer or enjoy at the human level. Of course, there are something called as Siddhas (those with supernatural powers). But the term "Godman" is not at all of Hindu origin. In fact, it is a derogatory term that is used to malign Hinduism.

Deepak,

Thanks for your reply. As stated before, the term, Godman, probably came into existence from a person(s) close (high organizational stature) to a particular spiritual Guru. Beginning followers, probably found the term helpful, as a seed crystal, in developing their belief system.

Anyway, thanks for your honest and sincere reply. Best wishes to you.
Roger

@ Roger,

Quite possible.

Those with faith have a tendency to exaggerate and mystify.

The problem with people who bash spirituality is that they themselves have no spiritual development, they are blind. It is said that the planets have received the boon, and they are responsible for the creation and destruction of the universe and therefore thay are most valued. There are many different systems of jyotish astrology, and just like everything else in this world, knowledge can become impure over time. I suggest studying the Systems Approach which has been boiled down jyotish to its most useful components. This system is the most practical understanding of jyotish astrology and it allows you to observe the transits relative to your own birth chart. The challenge in this life is Karma and ignorance. When you suffer, you are suffering your own Karma. During times of suffering you can observe a malific planet in transit over your chart. This is a time for patience and gaining understanding of your weakness. Not the time to blame others and do something stupid. The outward action of blaming others is the result of someone who is in a state of ignorance regarding their own Karma, their own Earthly existence. Easy for some to be critical of astrology, but if you have not tried it, don't bash it.

Sidha54 says:

"The problem with people who bash spirituality is that they themselves have no spiritual development, they are blind."

-- No, the problem is actually with people like yourself who assume that others are "blind" and have no "spiritual development". And unlike yourself (apparently), those who DO have spiritual development, have earned the right to question and "bash".

"The challenge in this life is Karma and ignorance. When you suffer, you are suffering your own Karma."

-- That is simply your belief.

"Easy for some to be critical of astrology, but if you have not tried it, don't bash it."

-- Perhaps, but I don't remember where or if anyone bashed astrology. But emphasis upon astrology destroys spontaneity. I prefer to live my life by my own wits and wisdom, free of astrological predictions and superstitions which impose obscurations.

lololololol u guys r taking the jostishi on the BABA ji THE GOD THE KING I PITY ON U GUYS LOLOLOl

I have heard the date assumed to be his birthday --is not his birthday. Same with Hazur's birthday. So, well, pick a day, heck look at all remaining days, one is bound to fit. (jk) Course the place of birth might also be red herring.

I don't know why you people enjoy debating over Babaji, but I can only assume you have nothing better to do. When a person is so negative and has nothing but negativity to distribute it is clear they are failures themselves and enjoy looking at others in the same light. I have been initiated on the path nearly 18years and have experienced luminous visions within and can confirm that he has put me in touch with the divine so I will not tolerate all the nonsense you write about him. Go and find something useful to do with your time.

"I have been initiated on the path nearly 18years and have experienced luminous visions within and can confirm that he has put me in touch with the divine so I will not tolerate all the nonsense you write about him."

Anno, why are you blogging? Being 'in tough' with the Divine is a trillion(sp?) times more wonderous than blogging. So, why are you wasting time with anything other than the divine?

Thanks for a reply...Roger

Anno... you're a Dodo. you say that you won't "tolerate"?? well, thats just tough. if you don't like what other people have to say here, then don't come to this blog. its not your blog so its none of your damn business. apparently its you who has nothing better to do than to express your intolerance and negative attitude. in case you don't know it (and you obviously don't), everyone has a right to their own opinions. so take your head out of your ass, and go hang out with your guru-cult. no one here is stopping you or telling you what to do. its all your own immaturity and insecurity.


There is a lot of discussion going on here that it is indeed possible to have genuine experiences if you truly believe. There are serious questions whether a guru can be aware of all his followers because that would require him to speed think a million thoughts a second.
So he doesn't know about you but your believe has led you into whatever vision you have. I think the guru should be honest about that. Giving you back to your higher self or to God. But why would you give your money time and adoration to him if he told you the truth?
Just my opinion and one can debate that keeping the people stupid could help them if one does not accept there money. The later being unethical. Oh yeah and also not tell them to control their mind because that leads to retardation and regression. And oh yeah the diet can give you serious issues with vitamines and omega 3. A girl I know had skin deseases that needed flesh and no green vegetables. So she had a serious problem with the diet. And she found out after a lot of time. In fact no simple or complex rule system will ever cover everything and a lot of harm is done in believing that. And by the way who is able to get the rules exactly right into your head and million others?

Nietzsche remarked:

"a lot of discussion going on here that it is indeed possible to have genuine experiences if you truly believe."

-- but what are "genuine" experiences?? what makes them "genuine", as opposed to just experiences?? what says that merely holding a belief, somehow makes it "genuine"?


I was thinking of my own experience long before Santhmat. I used to read the complete works from C.G. Jung as a student in physics and was working on my internal Anima energies. Some day I figured that I would need a positive Anima image and I was thinking of a person that I had deep genuine respect for. Than I felt like lifting with the image of that person and later a deep rest came into my life that has not left me since. But what I wondered was how this related to the real life person that was a very bitch so it turned out later :) So somehow higher energies took on the image of that person because I believed in her. Perhaps the goddess (as she is often called being another side of yourself) could have token another image. Another thing I learned from this was that the process was completely outside my control. It just happened and I'm still wondering what is was/is and that is why I searched in Santhmat. To be honest I do have my reservations with the inward experiences, I don't see how they have anything to do with what I experienced earlier. I remember riding a bicycle a long time ago and then I was thinking if this is enlightenment than it has absolutely nothing to do with any of the books I ever read. I couldn't make it happen, the world was still the same but also strange and all the people that I had been looking up to changed into ignorant people. I'm still not sure what it was but I don't think the inner world has anything to do with it.
Searching like you all :)
Come to think of it. It did leave me with a much higher concentration (and inteligence) that I had before. That concentration comes in handy if you want to have inner experiences as I experienced lately. Never thought that I would have some santhmat experiences after I left the cult :)
As Feuerbach said: 'anything goes' .

Nietzche,et al.

In my expanded understanding of Faqir Chands idea I believe that the physical form of Gurinder Singh is still valid. If one or more of his predeccessors is perfect then it probably does NOT matter whether he is genuine or not. It is the SPIRITUAL CONNECTION which is necessary.So, loving his physical form, and good actions are still valid because it ACTS AS A LINK TO THE RADIANT FORM OF OUR HIGHER SELF, OR INNER GOD.

But why should Gurinder Singh if imperfect be "in power" so to speak. The answer I believe is that it is a Way in which the Divine Will, or Mauj is wanting to slowly end the line of Beas Satsang Masters. As to why is another question..But, ofcourse we do know that many lines of gurus of whatever tradition usually end sooner, or later in time, and space.

The above ofcourse is purely theoretical from an esoteric point of view. I know the above sounds a little "mad", and "socially unacceptable" but it does have its own alien rationality about it which cannot be easily dismissed if we believe in fair play.


I am mystified!! Why does Gurinder Singh Blog appear at the end of link

Religare, Gurinder, and Beas Satsang, Part One. : Gurinder Singh Blog
Religare, Gurinder, and Beas Satsang, Part One. The current RSSB guru is Gurinder Singh Dhillon. The email says that he has two sons, Gurpreet Singh Dhillon ...
connect.in.com/gurinder.../religare-bgurinderb-and-beas-satsang-part-one-110713-1.html - IndiaGet more results from the past 24 hours

Also, I was amused to see a discussion group on Religare in which one of the users is known as the Investment Guru!! HHmm...

26,913,000 Indians were born in 2008
Devide this by 365 days in year

Roughly 73,734 people are born in India every day.

So, lets say only 60,000 people were
born on the same day as Gurinder in India
in 1954.

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/india_statistics.html

Thought would bring to your notice - prashant trivedi is a complete fraud and a nutcase to top that. He is currently claiming to be God reincarnated.

Monshine is perfectly spot on about Prashant Trivedi. I happen to know Prash and his family and he doesn't come from a family of astrologers.

i am waiting for someone for last 8 years.when he is coming to me?23-08-1981,time 02:10am

I really liked the article, and the very cool blog

This post is very much informative in context. I like to admire the way you explain the topic.
While this journey culminates with the gain of divine knowledge we know it has to start with the ability to address and seek solutions to your current problems. This is a journey of faith and that can only happen with the results you see today. We seek to enable that through the most ancient, accurate, consistent, widely practiced and appreciated science in every culture and civilization known as JYOTISH

Guys wat does rssb say about rituals and sorcery...do dey work..

Great, Catherine Thanks for unrevealing a very powerful tool that explains the blue print of an individual - Vedic Astrology.

Am an astrologer doing astrological readings as a hobbyist and also a follower of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. Don't be mistaken - am educated - MBA from Washington state University and B.TECH, M.TECH (Gold medalist) from the Best Universities of Delhi. Worked in Education sector for 12 years at Senior positions and then for 18 years in an International organization.

My Parents were initiated by Hazur Maharaj Charan singh ji , when I was 2 years old. Until I got married at the age of 22 years I followed every satsang of Hazur Maharaji from the age of 2 years and did regular Service/Seva at RSSB Center Delhi. After Marriage , I went to several Gurus, as guided by my husband - Parmahansa Yogananda, Goenkar Vipasana and also became an Art of living teacher. Everywhere I found myself growing. At the age of 48 years in 2014 November, I got initiated by RSSB Babaji. The spiritual journey has been above my expectations. I must clarify that if I left one spiritual sect and moved to the other , it was not due to any hate - everything has its purpose and when then learning has taken place, GOD moves us on.

I have been reading all the stories about Singh brothers that are floating on the net. And simultaneously I hear the satsangs. Let's NOT throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is a lot of good happening at RSSB. Singh Bros were not kids - if they have given off any funds they made a conscious decision. Now that they are confronted by the law of the land , they have passed on the buck to others.

The law of the land might not always go in tandem with our spiritual beliefs. I want to give secret donations - Gupt Daan as our vedic sculptures say - the law would call it the concealment of facts because I want my identity to be a secret. What a Dilemma... whom should I follow - the calling of my soul or the bonded physical environment around me.

I feel any Guru in his Human form , also has to face the Karmic law. RSSB Gurus have never called themselves GOD - they are only messengers of GOD to show us the path to become one with GOD. When you are truly loved by GOD - HE does not give you a long rope - any karmic debt you collect HE would work on you aggressively to cleanse you sooner than later. If you are the chosen one by HIM, you would wonder why am punished mercilessly for a small mistake while the majority on this earth do so much bad and yet they are not reprimanded. Why - because GOD wants you return home shining without any dirt on you.

Lord Jesus Christ was also crucified for telling the truth that was not acceptable to the law of the land.

I would suggest - let's wait and watch - no point adding more fuel to the fire. RSSB is a genuine spiritual sect, it's not a religion, And it would emerge out to be PURE.

Lots of Love and Care for the Humanity.

Yours Jyoti


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