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November 15, 2008


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Yet another wonderful poignant post. And you took the thoughts/words right out of my mind. Are you like running one of those psychic hotlines?

You are no doubt getting down to the nitty-gritty of simplicity. And I'm right here with you all the way.

Athough you know, if you keep going this way, soon there may be nothing more to say ! Then I'll be forced to come up to Oregon so we can take silent zen walks together.

Hey, maybe we all should get together and have a Churchless graduation party! Maybe Tucson could come up too. Some of the others maybe too far away to come, but I'm not sure. We could even have it at that "clearing" in the forest that you mentioned.

How about it? (we shouldn't forget to bring some pretty women though)

tAo, glad you liked the post. After I wrote it last night, I felt good. Like I'd shared something that I hadn't acknowledged quite as clearly before.

I may indeed be getting to the end of... something. Writing about the downside of religion is starting to feel akin to writing about the downside of believing in unicorns.

Eventually you start to wonder, "What's the point?" If something isn't real, criticizing it is sort of like trying to bat away clouds. There's nothing much there to swing at.

"Pretty obviously, I'm entering the simple phase of my philosophical trajectory. In my life I've thought a lot of complex thoughts. I've written some complex books.

I've followed a complex spiritual path,Sant Mat."

it was ur complex perception of life that made u see Sant mat as complex. In practice it is very very Simple. Difficult, but simple. Like cutting down a tree with an ax.
Complex thoughts is complex sant mat.Simple thoughts and then Sant Mat life becomes simple. This is a simple truth regardless if you accept Sant Mat or not. It applies throughout. Complex thoughts.

You maybe inclined to deny that for some people Sant Mat is the simplest thing, and go about their day harmoniously.Without conflict. Simple thoughts. (off course they are delusional; especially/regardless/even if? they meditate three four five hours a day)

It was Sawan Singh I think who more or less said..
Give an intellectual man candy and he will start analyzing and describing it. Give to a simple man (or a child) and he will laugh and smile as he is lost in the taste.. mmm mmm mmm mmm

Ander, you don't know what you're talking about. Sorry, but that's true. You parrot words that you've heard as if they mean something.

Try thinking for yourself sometime. It can be fun. And a lot more interesting for the people you share your thoughts with.

mmm mmm

Hmmm mmm. Another badly constructed argument this looks like??

There's 2 ways of looking at simplicity;

1) there is the purely simple. THIS IS IT. Nothing more, nothing less. No conceptual adornment whatsoever. This is what everything, all spiritual paths, all life, everything comes down to. THIS. Nothing needs to be said, nothing needs to be done, no path, n past, present or future. Just THIS. The glory and magnificence of THIS needs no name, no worship, no 'attaiment', nothing. In and of itself, it is complete and whole and perfect. It's beauty and grandeur and power and immensity and every other amazing thing just speaks for itself. Hence, the perfect spiritual path is; be as you are, and you are already aligned with THIS. Simple.

2) The other type of simplicity is a kind of upside down simplicity. A wrong-headed simplicity, imo. In this, you are fed a HIGHLY complex conceptual structure/paradigm, where your identity as 'seeker' or 'disciple' is rigidly and highly defined. All kinds of behaviour, emotions, character traits, modes of life, choices we make etc etc are usually highly influenced by this conceptually rigid mental paradigm (the RS system, in this case). Now, within this HIGHLY conceptual and life directing paradigm, we are advised to 'simply' adhere to it, to not ask questions or be intellectually curious. We have been told what to do, now 'simply' follow it without question!

Well, that is simplicity with barriers, conceptual limits. Simplicity without freedom.

Now, simplicity with NO barriers and NO conceptual limits. Simplicity with FREEDOM......THAT, that is 'spirituality'.......


I started my spiritual "search" over 34 years ago, spending a few years in one meditation group before being introduced to RSSB.

Interestingly, it took me a couple years to sort things out before asking for initiation. I wanted to make sure that the path I followed took me to the highest "heavenely abode" possible.

I compared RS to every path I could find. I'd map out the inner stages, trying to determine where one path ended and another continued.

Well, RS won the "highest heavenly abode ward". But, the only thing was that after over 25 years of meditation, I had nothing really substantial to show for it. No treks through Bank Nal, no radiant form, nada, no higher wisdom, and so on. In fact, I had a rather inflated ego - if you want to know the truth - you know, being a "chosen one" and all.

Well, eventually I walked away from the whole thing, especially after some of the silly cult-like directives that Gurinder Singh came up with, which I am sure you are more than familiar with.

Well, to make a long story short, my 34 years of spiritual practice and before that years as a devout and practicing Catholic, have shown me that I am clueless about anything spiritual. I don't know anything of any substance spiritually and when I hear folks rattle off doctrine or dogmas or spiritual "shoulds" of one form or another, I just shake my head.

Anybody can rattle off concepts (mostly nonsense). In the past, I would enjoy engaging these folks in an argument or two! But, then I realized that all I was doing was presenting another concept to compete with their concept and that in reality, we were both full of bullshit.

So my "path" today is to recognize the divine presence in this precious life we have been given on this earth. IMO, it's a miracle when I get out of bed in the morning and I'm still breathing. Or, that the sun rises on a timely basis each day...stuff we take for granted but to me are really divine miracles in their own right.

And lastly, I hope that as I honor the sacrededness of the present moment, I can hopefully be a progressively kinder and wiser person to myself and those I meet in life.

Honestly, I don't what else there is to do.. but simply "be".


Manjit, you make a nice distinction between the two kinds of simplicity. When people say (as Charan Singh used to), "We fail to take simple things in a simple way," usually they're referring to the second dogmatic kind of simplicity.

Namely, that the complexifier isn't willing to accept on faith all of the rules and precepts of a particular religion. Like you said, that's much different from simply seeing life as it is, with minimal conceptual additions.

Bob, honestly said. Sounds like you've arrived at a good place. I suspect that 99.9% of other long-time meditators share your same non-experience, but most aren't willing to be as forthright. (The other .1%, I suspect, are delusional.)


You said,

Complex thoughts is complex sant mat.Simple thoughts and then Sant Mat life becomes simple. This is a simple truth regardless if you accept Sant Mat or not. It applies throughout. Complex thoughts.

It seems many here are quite familiar with the RSSB teachings. I know they are complex for me but I am sure they would be simple for you, Could you please throw some light on this.

This is a translation of a Sat sang in Hindi held by Sat guru Baba Sawan Singhji on 15th April 1943 at Dera, Beas, Source –A Book in Hindi by RSSB- Ruhani Dairy Part I –published in 1968 and lastly published in 2003.I apologize for mistakes since English is not my first language nor do I use it often, even then I’ll try to translate without modifying the essence of it. Here it goes.

We should always live at his will, whatsoever our situation be whether in disease, sorrow &happiness, poverty& riches by thanking the Lord and living peacefully. Satguru always makes it that we have to suffer the minimum.

During the time of Babaji Maharaj (Jaimal Singhji) there was a woman with severe pain in her back tooth. People every now and then came down with prayers to Babaji (Jaimal Singhji) to relieve her of the pain, but Babaji wouldn’t move at all nor would utter a word.

Finally when a very dear (premi) satsangi insisted much, then Babaji told that this woman had killed a boy to rob his jewellery in her previous birth, and now this boy is taking the revenge in this life by taking the birth as worm in her back tooth. Now is it not the grace of the Guru.

Now what arises in my thoughts that the Guru had been graceful to his disciple ( the woman) but at the same time been somewhat cruel to the boy ( the worm).


Q. 448 If people do wrong, do they not come back as animal?

A. Not initiates. Of course, otherwise, one has to come back according to his karma, into whatever species our karma designates. But you had asked whether it was “necessary” for a satsangi. It is not necessary. He can improve right from there.

Q. 364 Maharaj Ji, does all human life start in lower forms and evolve upwards? I mean, in animal forms, or even lower?

A. He created the whole thing. The creation did not develop slowly from one thing. He simply projected Himself, through His Word, the Shabd, and the whole world and everything in it was created at once.

Q.367 When we look an ant, a little object crawling, could we assume that soul was once a human form?

Q.329 After the third or fourth life does every soul return to God? Is there such a thing as a lost soul? That is, if a soul does not find a Master in his fourth like, is he lost?

A. Every soul does not go back to the Lord after the third or fourth form. That is absolutely wrong. Only those souls which are destined to go back to the Lord, which are the souls marked by the Lord, will go back to the Lord. And whenever they will go back to the Lord they will go back through His sons, through the Masters who initiate them, who put them on spiritual path. With His grace, with His help, when they spiritually advance, when they clear off their karmas, when they drive out their desires, when they root out their attachments, then only do those souls, with the help of their Masters, go back to the Lord. From the time of initiation, this may be accomplished within one birth, within two births, within three births, but at the most it will take four births. It depends upon the individual, as to how much he has to clear, how much he is required to develop himself spiritually.

But those people who do not follow the path: those people who have no desire to go back to the Lord: those people who do not drive out the desires and attachments of the world from themselves, the question of their going back to the Lord does not arise at all, whether they come into this world a hundred times or two hundred times. They will always be a part of this huge chain. They will come and go. It is only when we have a desire to go back to Him that we think about Him or can go back to Him.

Some more answers of Maharaj Charan Singh ji

A. Saints are so kind hearted and soft hearted that sometimes they do perform miracles, but they always teach us, and themselves become a living example, how to submit to the Will of the Lord.

Saints can de whatever they like. There is absolutely no restriction on them, but they generally do not like to break the law of nature.

The priests have made religion a profession and they cannot see the people going out of their hold on them.

Masters definitely carry the karmas of the disciples.

Faith in the Master is must for the spiritual progress.

The mind is your biggest enemy.

All these answers for me seem to be another questions, though the masters say that you can get all the answers when you go inside. I have never done any progress on the path, neither I have ever tried to, nor I've been able to understand the teachings of Sant Mat, since they are complex for me.

What should I do, try to have faith in the Masters or wait for the fourth birth?

I just don't see how the RS gurus (and others) get away with their deception except that people are desperate for a remedy for their mortality and a security blanket to help face the uncertainties of life. So, if someone confidently says they have the answer, people will abandon reason in the hope that what that person, cult, religion, guru says is true. Isn't that what it comes down to?

My mother, who believed in nothing but a bottle of vodka, used to say the same thing about religion, gurus, etc., and countless mothers, fathers, children, aunts and uncles have said the same throughout the generations.

Yes, through intense faith, austere practices, rituals and drugs we can alter our consciousness and brain chemistry so that various insights and spiritual visions appear on/in the formless screen of awareness. But all this is just appearance and passing phenomena. What remains as unchanging (real) in all this is the screen, and the screen is no-thing at all.

Since all there has ever been is no-thing at all, and that 'no-thing' is all that is truly present now or was or will be, isn't it a comfort to know that we are that and that will never change?

Where can no-thing go? What else can no-thing be than this, as it is, right now?

To whom it may concern,

I enjoyed reading parts of Juan's above comment. The 4th life cycle concept before returning to God, sounds like a winner. After spending an exhaustive amount of time,(5 minutes) I have decided to JOIN UP.
The Saint description (noted in Juan's comment) is how I would like to spend the 4 life cyles. My reasoning is as follows,

----Saints are so kind hearted and soft hearted that sometimes they do perform miracles, but they always teach us, and themselves become a living example, how to submit to the Will of the Lord.
Saints can do whatever they like. There is absolutely no restriction on them, but they generally do not like to break the law of nature.----

In summation --- 4 lifes as a Saint -- I can see the simplicity and some fun.

If there is anyone that could help me with this divine mission, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for any help you can bring my way.
With humility, I present this comment.


You said, "But all this is just appearance and passing phenomena. What remains as unchanging (real) in all this is the screen, and the screen is no-thing at all."

Right on!!


Ander says:

"u see Sant mat as complex. In practice it is very very Simple. Like cutting down a tree with an ax."

-- Cutting down a tree with an axe he says? I had a feeling this sucker was a destructive minded nutcase.

"You maybe inclined to deny that for some people Sant Mat is the simplest thing"

-- I think he means Sant Mat is for the simple-minded.

"a simple man ... he will laugh and smile as he is lost in the taste"

-- 'Lost in the taste' he says? What does RS taste like?

"It was Sawan Singh I think who more or less said.."

-- Ander sounds a lot like someone from that TCC... aka the Toilet Corpse Cult, or the "Order of the Divine Will".

See: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081117/ap_on_re_us/decaying_corpse_3

Ander wants to keep the dead rotting corpse of RS propped up on a toilet seat, in the vain hopes that it will somehow, someday come back to life. Pretty lame eh?

Such is the fate of those who put ther faith in irrational guru-cults.

Buenos tardes, mi amigos

If you did not read my recommendation to see the movie Religulous by Bill Maher in my last comment to the post titled Belief is in the brain, so beware, then I am hoping you will take my advice and go see this marvelous film asap. It should be playing at an art film type theatre in most cities. If it's not available where you live, be sure to watch it on DVD in the near future. I look forward to reading your comments about Religulous. That includes you too, Brian. I bet it's showing in Salem or Portland. May we all wake up tomorrow to experience another gift of life from the universe. Pleasant dreams and happy trails.


And another two minutes one,


yia sas kai xara sas

Don Pedro, mi amigo y mis amigos aqui,

I don't think it is your intention, but you come across as overbearing regarding your insistence that we see this movie "Religulous", especially to Brian whose comment you are "looking forward to".

Should Brian cancel his next Dance or Tai Chi class and head immediately to the nearest avant garde theater and plunk down his ten bucks simply on your say so?

On what basis do readers of this forum have any idea where you are coming from or what your perspective is?

You haven't given us any compelling reason to take your "advice" and see this film. All we know is that you think it is "marvelous". I would like to know why this movie is of such import that we see it "asap". So, why don't you write a review or critique about the film so we know what you are talking about.

Personally, it will take a hatchetman to get me to pay money for anything Bill Mahr does. His creepy, snide, arrogant intellectualism rubs me the wrong way even though I concede he can be very witty.

This is an excellent and thought provoking post, and I can very much relte to much of what you have written here with regard to the trajectory and present status of my own spiritual journey. I've been impressed enough such that I've posted a portion of what you've written here over at my blog with a link to your post. :) I hope that is OK.

I only found your blog about a week ago and was intrigued, and I've been enjoying your musings here. Keep up the good work.

Buenos noches, mi amigo Tucson

The title of the film is derived from the words religion and rediculous. By googling this word you will find multiple links with all the information possible about the movie including a trailer. I could write a review or critique but prefer that you either take my word that it's worth seeing or do your own research and then decide whether to see it or not. My intention is simply to share something that I enjoyed with no hidden agenda. I had virtually no experience of Bill Maher prior to seeing Religulous. The only other movie that made me laugh this hard in recent memory was the first time I saw Borat. Not as funny the second time. Religulous was directed by the director of Borat. Hasta la vista.


My wife and I saw Religulous the other night at the cheapo theatre in town.

I thought the movie was rather shallow and at times I almost fell asleep.

It just didn't do that much for me. I would have appreciated more in-depth discussions.

I certainly wouldn't pay 8 or 10 bucks to see it..no way!


Don Pedro,

Since Bob is obviously a very astute fellow, mainly because he agrees with some of my comments, I will take his advice and wait until "Religulous" is available on DVD.

Besides, I rarely go to theaters...too much popcorn breath, deafening volume and arctic AC, and with a couple hundred channels on the HDTV at home I have way too much material to "zone out" on as it is.

I am glad you enjoyed "Religulous", and we do have something in common as I also thought "Borat" was a riot. My favorite all-time slapstick moment in movies, bar none, was the opening scene in "Jackass, the Movie", you know the one with the guys in the giant shopping cart!! #2 is the "Pink Panther" series with Peter Sellers and #3 is Laurel and Hardy in the "Piano Movers" which I saw on acid and was in danger of literally laughing to death. I put "Piano Movers" at #3 because drugs give an unfair advantage.

Buenas Noches

Anders, some people need the imaginary blanket around them while tasting the sweet. mmmmmm mmmmm. Some just throw off the blanket or never need it when tasting the sweet. mmmmm mmmm. Some are sucking the sweet, but not tasting it, some are chewing so hard that it splinters in their mouths and cuts them.

Anyway, Anders, Sant Mat helped for a while. Maybe we need to believe in the illusion to give us an illusionary rest, a break in India, a clean-looking person to believe in, the stillness of a large crowd in expectation, voluntary work for a community, a feeling of belonging with an adventure thrown in at the same time; order; a break from our lifestyles. All the best Anders. Remember it may not pay you during this period to debate with us here. Gurinder does not permit it and when you struggle with meditation, you may blame your impulse.

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