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July 28, 2008

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Boxing is an interesting sport. Personally, I can't watch it anymore, but it is nice to see that each blow (jabs, hooks, body punches) can be delivered by the vehicle of words, replete with the psychic energy behind them. The field of Kurukshetra is none other than our own consciousness.

Brian,

Yours is an excellent response to Richard's RS rhetoric. In fact it's way better and more articualte than my rather blunt attempt. It says, much more thoughtfully and tactfully, what I would have said if I had not been in such a rowdy-ass mood.

PS: This is quite unrelated to the above, but I highly recommend seeing (or listening to) the entirety of this recent videotaped David Icke lecture titled "Big Brother - the Big Picture":

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4799447112501062338


Richard,

two points:

1) you seem to be conflating a general dislike for "white, spoiled, lazy, American yuppies" with a sense that you have a responsibility to mobilize the masses, or something like that.

2) if you have read all the Sant Mat books, you might remember passages that recommend that you let others go through their karmas without trying too much to interfere.

to Brian,

you write:
"I meditated every day for over thirty years. Give me a break. Many of those years, for the prescribed two and a half hours. I've been a disciple. I've walked the walk. I just never had the experiences that RSSB claims a disciple will have in meditation."

RSSB never claims all disciples will have experiences. It is clear, according to letters by Charan Singh, that a disciple who has not made much progress, but has done his/her duty (meditation, sticking to the vows, generally putting in a good faith effort) that this person is still successfully following the path. Our expectations of success and failure can allow us to interpret whether or not meditation is working or not, which may or may not be true.

This is to suggest that when people say "I have been meditating for thirty years and..." as if this makes them an expert, they might want to rethink this. Playing golf for thirty years doesn't ensure results when you step out onto the golf course today...


This is written to people like Richard.I dont intend any disrepect .After all I was involved in Sant Mat for thirty odd years and possibly whithout those years of meditation I would not have understood or experienced what Matt Chait so nicely describes in his blog .Below is a part of a blog by Matt Chait which to me makes sense to me today.

"The self is not part of any belief system and it is not a hallucination. If there were such a belief system the self would not be the belief system but the one who is experiencing the belief system, the one who is having the hallucination. The self does not require any belief system. It does not require any mythology. It does not require any religious stories, either biblical or otherwise. It does not require a sales pitch. It is not something that is 'understood' only by a small cadre of elite 'professionals' who tell you, when you complain that it doesn't make any sense, that you cannot understand it because you are insufficiently educated or insufficiently intelligent. It is not a concept that you have to learn to understand. It is not a belief that you have to learn to accept. It is an EXPERIENCE, and once you have had that experience the way you view yourself and your life is instantly transformed.

It is like trying to explain to a fish what water is. The fish has no framework for understanding water because she has never experienced 'no water'. Water is the milieu of every moment of her experience. To her mind, water is a myth. But lift that fish out of water for a few seconds and when she goes back in her understanding of water is transformed. Now she understands water and she needs no reminders to be grateful for it. A person doesn't realize there is a self because he is so constantly attaching his self to his thoughts, perceptions and memories that he comes to believe that he is the content rather than the context of his experience.

The reason people are attracted to meditation, yoga and spiritual practices is not, as those great philosophers, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, would have it, because they want to avoid reality, it's because they are tired of avoiding themselves. Meditation, chanting, yoga, tai chi, fasting, prayer, all of the varied spiritual practices are designed to provide that 'no water' experience; to give you an experience of yourself separate from the things you are thinking, wondering and worrying about. Can you separate your self from the things you are thinking about, the thoughts from the thinker? What happens when, even for a moment, you stop thinking, stop dreaming, stop focusing on the outside world of things or the inside world of thoughts and feelings? Then you have an experience of the self instead of an experience of whatever it is that the self is focusing on.

What you discover when you realize that you are not the things that you are thinking about, not your body or even your relationships, is that you are not a thing, at all. You are not even molecules and atoms. You are not even muons or neutrinos. You are spirit, not matter. And, as spirit, you have not changed. Your body has changed. There is probably not one cell in your body that has not died and been replaced by a new one since your birth. Your thoughts have changed. The things that you desire and that are important to you have changed, but you, the context of all that experience has not changed. You are exactly the same as you always were and always will be. And there is nothing in you that can change because you are not a thing."

Read the whole thing.at
http://beyondevolutionistheregodafterdawkins.blogspot.com/2008/05/self-vs-sense-of-self.html

Right on the money post. Naturally, having been through this all but just with a different religion, I totally agree with you, Brian :)

Adam,

I like this statement in your above comment,

"RSSB never claims all disciples will have experiences. It is clear, according to letters by Charan Singh, that a disciple who has not made much progress, but has done his/her duty (meditation, sticking to the vows, generally putting in a good faith effort) that this person is still successfully following the path. Our expectations of success and failure can allow us to interpret whether or not meditation is working or not, which may or may not be true."

---Are you aware of a letter or letters by Charan Singh, that describes a disciple that has had much progress? This disciple would have no expectations of success or failure, followed the vows, and generally put in a good faith effort. This person would be a wonderful person to have a conversation with.

Hi Roger,
I am packing now, and cant find my copy of "Divine Light," but there is a letter in this book, in which a disciple describes hearing the "big bell sound" and perhaps some other experiences which I can't remember. Charan Singh tells him this is the height of grace and simply to continue his meditation with zeal and earnestness.

On the other hand, there are letters, which read like, (and again I am paraphrasing) that no time in meditation goes unrewarded...that if someone in a normal job is paid fair dues, someone putting work in on the inside will also eventually receive the fruits of this effort. However, the law of karma, according to sant mat says that we will reap whatever we sow, meaning that all actions culminate in some net result. Mediation, as prescribed, is simply the action taken which leads one closer to merging into oneness. That's how I take it anyway.

Not that you asked, but I was thinking this morning about why I am a satsangi, given the fact that I am rather churchless in my outlook.

My answer to myself is that I have a certain curiosity about what's outside of the boundaries of the self. If I am on a walk in nature, I at times become aware of the strangeness that is the result of comparing the drama and characters in my mind to the rest of nature, which is telling a different story....If I can quiet my own individual story, I have the hunch that there is another experience waiting for us...it is this hunch that keeps me going.

Besides, the "science" of sant mat meditation seems to make sense. A human being does seem most importantly laid out from the top down, meaning brain, down to the heart, to the lower limbs. What if there is a life force holding our body together that leaves when we die? What if this life force can be drawn back to it's headquarters (in the brain), away from the senses, which filter our experience?

To me, all of these seem like reasonable hypotheses, and not only reasonable, but exciting. What if, while in a body, we could catch a glimpse of an experience that is so radically different than what has become normal for us...

Anyway, just felt like getting all this out

Adam,

Thanks for your reply.

When you have time, down the road, write out the entire contents of the letter from the mentioned disciple.

One experience was the "big bell sound." Write in a comment, what the other experiences were. Sounds fascinating.

I wonder, what did Charan Singh mean by the statement, "this is the height of grace?"
Was there a particular experience that was at the height?

Likewise, the importance of zeal and earnestness in meditation. Does zeal and earnestness help in Ones meditation progress?

Again, thanks for posting the contents of that letter, in a comment.

Roger,
I will write out that letter should I remember upon unpacking....

About zeal and earnestness, I suspect it is helpful because with this attitude one is more alert, less sleepy, and can concentrate better.

Brian on "Ridiculing my own Religious Fundamentalism"
July 12th 2007

-- Initiated disciples (satsangis) were supposed to meditate 2 ½ hours a day. I'd set a timer on my watch. Before midnight I'd make sure that it registered 150 minutes of meditation time. Sometimes I'd stare at the seconds going by until I could hit the stop button after the magic 150th minute passed. Not exactly deep concentrated meditation, but I was precisely obeying the letter of the RSSB law, which gave me great fundamentalist satisfaction

Brian said on this post:
"I meditated every day for over thirty years. Give me a break. Many of those years, for the prescribed two and a half hours. I've been a disciple. I've walked the walk. I just never had the experiences that RSSB claims a disciple will have in meditation."

"Minute Counting yoga" and "Surat Shabd yoga" are two very different types of meditation.

Ander, I agree. This points out the ridiculousness of the meditation vow. Yet it is indeed a vow. At the time of initiation you don't commit to meditate for as long as you can concentrate fully -- which could be for five or ten minutes.

No, RSSB says that two and a half hours of meditation is the thing, regardless of the degree of concentration. (However, Charan Singh said that ten minutes of "real" meditation is much better, a point I'd make frequently in my satsang talks.)

You also point to the shifting sand of this supposed science. Whenever I say "by doing such and such, this is supposed to happen," usually someone replies with a comment along the lines of "not really." Well, which is it?

Is meditation supposed to lead to certain mystical experiences, or "not really"? The four lifetime thing often is brought up. Well, a bunch of disciples should be on their fourth lifetime, so at least they should be God-realized, or close to it.

Where are these disciples? I sure never met any during my 35 years of RSSB involvement. Have you?

Hey, I was originally initiated by Guru Mugdahl Pasheer Waziribadi in 1387, and this is my sixth lifetime without even a hint of spiritual progress. I was told by an advanced soul that the delay was caused by inadvertantly eating a slice of dessert cake that contained part of an egg during my third lifetime.

Chai, thanks! Now I understand my problems with meditation. I must have fallen into a similar karmic cheesecake trap. Wasn't even aware that cheesecake existed in the 1600s, or whenever -- but I appreciate the explanation. No wonder I also haven't gotten the expected spiritual results.

Brian,

I cannot believe that you have been a follower of RSSB and written a book called 'life is fair' for RS, yet you have gone anti-RS. Whats that all about. I have been initiated for just under s decade by Babaji and okay its hard but what is easy.
You think that you are too clever. Don't forget, you are an embassador of babaji and you will come back one the path. Is just a matter of time.

Jay

Jay,

You're obviously an idiot. If you had actually read and understood even a fraction of what Brian has elaborated upon about RS in this blog, then you would not be saying such idiotic things like:

"yet you have gone anti-RS. Whats that all about"

"You think that you are too clever"

"you are an embassador of babaji and you will come back on the path".

What a friggin naive goof-ball you are. You are another perfect example of just how incredibly stupid the RSSB and and its leader Gurinder Singh, and especially all of his idiotic satsangi goons like you really are.

In fact, you and your comment have made a far better case against the Radha Soami Mat and its falws and dumb-ass followers than all of Brian's most excellent RS blog essays put together.

Just keep it up and you'll save all of us critics any further bother.

It is comments from guys like you that reveal and speak much much louder about the lameness of the RS path and the rs mentality than volumes from the intelligent critics could ever do.

If you have a drop of sense at all, you will take the time to actually go read and study what Brian (and also David Lane, etc) and other commenters have shared about the RS Mat and the RSSB and its dogma and gurus... before you go making an ignorant fool of yourself again.

You can also learn much here: http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com

here: http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata/

here: http://vm.mtsac.edu/~dlane/radhabook.html

here: http://vm.mtsac.edu/~dlane/rsdeb.html

here: http://vclass.mtsac.edu:940/dlane/shabdebates.htm

here: http://elearn.mtsac.edu/dlane/

and here: http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/gurutitle.html


Jay,

You're obviously an idiot. If you had actually read and understood even a fraction of what Brian has elaborated upon about RS in this blog, then you would not be saying such idiotic things like:

"yet you have gone anti-RS. Whats that all about"

"You think that you are too clever"

"you are an embassador of babaji and you will come back on the path".

What a friggin naive goof-ball you are. You are another perfect example of just how incredibly stupid the RSSB and and its leader Gurinder Singh, and especially all of his idiotic satsangi goons like you really are.

In fact, you and your comment have made a far better case against the Radha Soami Mat and its falws and dumb-ass followers than all of Brian's most excellent RS blog essays put together.

Just keep it up and you'll save all of us critics any further bother.

It is comments from guys like you that reveal and speak much much louder about the lameness of the RS path and the rs mentality than volumes from the intelligent critics could ever do.

If you have a drop of sense at all, you will take the time to actually go read and study what Brian (and also David Lane, etc) and other commenters have shared about the RS Mat and the RSSB and its dogma and gurus... before you go making an ignorant fool of yourself again.

(continued in next comment)


You can also learn much here: http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com

(continued in next comment)

Here: http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata/

(continued in next comment)

Here: http://vm.mtsac.edu/~dlane/radhabook.html

(continued in next comment)

Here: http://vm.mtsac.edu/~dlane/rsdeb.html

(continued in next comment)

Here: http://vclass.mtsac.edu:940/dlane/shabdebates.htm

(continued in next comment)

Here: http://elearn.mtsac.edu/dlane/

(continued in next comment

And here: http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/gurutitle.html


Wow,

What a reaction. Exactly what I thouht. No point wasting my time here! Life is too short. All will be revealed at the time of death. God help all those that criticise Sant Mat and babaji (God in the physical form -- if you like it or not).

Jay

Brian and Chai,

Chai, with your sixth lifetime, I wonder, how many lifetimes, the 'advanced soul' has endured? I know this is an exercise in silliness. However, an advanced soul must have lived through possibly hundreds of lifetimes. I feel sad for the advanced soul. Likewise, I can imaginde the sadness, this advanced soul, must feel when giving the bad news to a younger (sixth cycle) soul. Again, this is just a comment in silliness. The mechanics in lifecycling process is too much to imagine.

"Hey, I was originally initiated by Guru Mugdahl Pasheer Waziribadi in 1387, and this is my sixth lifetime without even a hint of spiritual progress. I was told by an advanced soul that the delay was caused by inadvertantly eating a slice of dessert cake that contained part of an egg during my third lifetime.

He he he he. He. Ho. Excellent! :-D

"Sixth lifetime without even a hint of spiritual progress" especially excellent!! He he.

Jay - thanks for a different type of laughs. ;-)

Jay writes:

"Wow, What a reaction. Exactly what I thouht. No point wasting my time here!"

-- You've been wasting your time for a long time. Ever since you turned away from your own innate reality and began to worship another... another false guru.

"Life is too short. All will be revealed at the time of death."

-- Life is all relative. A moment can last an eternity, and an eternity can pass in less than a moment. The smart thing to do is to appreciate and live your own life, and not to squander it vainly by running after illusory masters.

"God help all those that criticise Sant Mat and babaji"

-- God help those who make such stupid idle threats, those who put a dogma above love and reason, and those who worship false gods in the form of fake cult-gurus.

"babaji (God in the physical form -- if you like it or not)."

-- God my ass. God is already "in the physical form" of the entire Cosmos. This phony master babaji is nothing more than a politially appointed leader of an obscure supposedly mystical religious cult. He is but an empty idol for fools who have no mind of their own.


TAo

You really need to chill out. I don't really know much about you but were you ever an initaite of RS Guru's?

You don't hurt me with your words, infact you make me LOL. Seriously, its interesting have an extreme critic.

Jay

Glad to see your still hanging around Jay!

So maybe you won't turn out to be just another one of those typical hit-and-run posters after all... or is it 'shit-and-run posters'? Either way, they always dump a load of their RS dogma doo-doo, and then scurry off because they are really just cowards who can't take the heat of critical thinking.

But for a loyal satsangi like yourself, every day that you bravely remain here at the infamous Church of the Churchless, is much to your credit. Every day that you don't go running away like all the other wimpy little RS satsangi robots, is a day that you will earn a bit more respect from us hard-core critics... and I'm certainly not the only critic.

But then like I said Jay, you're an idiot... an "extreme" idiot. But I have to say that Jay... simply because it's like my duty you know, my seva if you will. Thios site is a place for those who really want to get to the truth, or as close to it as possible, and without all the spiritual bullshit.

But hey, don't dismay, because you're in right good company here Bro. That's because we've got well over 100 years of combined involvement in RS under our belts. Quite a few of us here, including myself, have more than 30 years as initiates & considerable affiliation with RSSB. So we do in fact really know what the fuck we are talking about... which is way more than a mere newbie like yourself. But thats OK because you're still here with us man, and that's very important too. So stick around and hang with us, and you just might even learn a few things that you probably wouldn't otherwise.

But you should probably start by directing your questions or whatever to Brian, as he is the founder of this Churchless blog site.

And btw, my intent was/is never to "hurt" you with my words. My intent is simply to make you start to really think for yourself, and not be another typical RS satsangi cult robot.


Jay,

Any Satsangi that reads your rantings will know that you are as lost and confused as the owner of this website.

All the online waffle and rantings evaporate and are exposed for the nonsense they are when you practice the simple teachings of Santmat and ask sincere questions directly to the Master.

He is a perfect example to everyone.

The online propaganda is just that - propaganda and wasted effort.

If you, or the owner of this website got initiated for instant results, instant perfection - then you are all deluded.

Id suggest that you keep your delusions to yourself instead of adding to the global paranoia and confusion via this website.

One ounce of inner experience and peace negates a lifetime of this externalism and online bantering.

Brad
Johannesburg

Ah again I see that Brad is guilty of the same thing that he thinks is the fault of this website. Global paranoia and confusion? That is what I see when I read your posts. Are you that insecure about your own spirituality that honest intellectual discussion would harm it? If so, then you might think of reflecting on your own system of beliefs - that is what I believe that Brian and other people at this forum do, they look at themselves in an honest way, to seek where they are wrong and to try to better themselves. That is what discussion on this website is for, to go away from paranoia towards an honest way of looking at life. Instead I see in your post the inquisitional tactics - blaming people for what you think are their shortcomings while ignoring your own.

That's cool guys. I am always open to critcism and will not run away. Criticim can only make you a better person.

Discussion - Percussion

Noise. Thats all this is.

When you are with Master - there is none of this nonsense.

I have no insecurities about the views I hold Amaranth.

I am however frustrated at reading the tripe, dressed as intellectual argument.

You see, the path - in this case referred to as RSSB - is so simple, there is little room for debate. If practiced, through experience - questions become superfluous.

Yet the intellectuals find space on these forums to blah blah fish-paste.

My shortcomings are many, including impatience and a critical nature. I am not ignoring my own faults at all. That is my ongoing personal battle.

Why the fascination with this multi-recycled topic? You are hearing a version of a version of a version of a version, tainted by a disillusioned writer (Hines), whose intellectual research and writings have left him feeling - unfulfilled. His personal views and experiences with Santmat have resulted in this alternate forum being built.

Its become a hangout for like-minded cyber ghosts. And here I am being sucked into the same conversation. i will resist and desist.

Any serious effort to 'better oneself' should include a 1st hand account and experience.

This cyber-valley discussion remains intellectual percussion.

Attend a satsang, read a book, listen to a tape, ask questions at satsang, write to the master. meet the master.

not everyone wants real change in their lives Amaranth, because it is uncomfortable.

not everyone will make a sincere search for the truth.

not everyone will find a master.

fewer still will be fortunate enough to find a god-realised soul - as their master.

still fewer will apply the principles taught to them, diligently and assiduously- FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE.

actually, it is the father that does the finding, and the truth is caught not taught. its all His grace at the end of the day, but intellectual mass debaters will not be satisfied by this, and like a cow that wants to constantly chew on recycled cud - the noise continues.

this is your world Amaranth, Tao, Hines, Jay.

keep it.

Brad, I like noise, I like percussion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUIWfR8R4cA&feature=related
also discussion - they help to still the mind.

Brad, about all I can suggest is that you read your words, and consider how easily your sentiments could be expressed by a fundamentalist Christian, Muslim, Jew, or a member of any other "this way is the only way" religion.

If that's what you consider genuine spirituality to be -- unquestioning fealty to a dogma for a lifetime -- then there isn't much else for me (or anyone else) to say.

You see, this blog is called "Church of the Churchless." It's for people who consider that ultimate truth isn't the exclusive property of any particular religion or spiritual path.

You obviously believe differently. You see Sant Mat / RSSB as the One True Path, and that any deviation from it means that someone (like me) has strayed off of that One True Path.

Again, I simply ask you: what is the difference between your attitude and that of a fundamentalist Christian, Muslim, or Jew?

And: is this what you signed up for when you were initiated into Sant Mat -- to adhere to a fundamentalist, exclusive view of reality? Maybe so. I certainly had leanings in that direction. I liked the idea that I was a "chosen soul" and most everyone else in the world wasn't.

Special me! It felt so good. For a while. But then, it didn't. I didn't feel special anymore. And that was a good feeling.

Lastly, Brad, you seem to view me as being composed entirely of intellectual thoughts, rather than direct experiences. If so, you're very much wrong. I simply have a certain knack for expressing my experiences -- that's what writers do. We don't live in our heads; we just use our heads to express what our hearts (and other parts of our body) experience.

I point this out because I hope you eventually come to stop making such rigid distinctions between people. As I often say, each of us is trying to live our lives as honestly, truly, and sincerely as we can. I don't think it's healthy for someone (like you) to consider that they have all the answers, and other poor deluded fools (like me) don't.

Hallelujah.
Thanks so much for establishing and maintaining this blog. My husband is a *devout* satsangi (Indian) who comes from a long line of the same. We met at satsang, and I (perhaps as a westerner and philosophy major) did lots of analysis and wondering and wandering, wanting more than anything to believe that this was the truth. The deeper I dug, the more inconsistencies that I found, and I was puzzled by the emphatic habits and belief systems of the satsangis. I even went so far as to ask close (initiated) friends about the inconsistencies, and their responses always followed along the lines of "I just choose to not think about that."
Surprisingly, I found this as frequently among Indian Satsangis as Western Satsangis.
Even at the Dera, I found oddities and practices that my gut told me were completely unethical (eg. money seva, seating wealthy westerners apart from the unwashed masses, and the past but unmentioned granting of the 5 holy names to women as the names of their parents,inlaws, and husband).
So I am churchless, and I am well-read, and I am frustrated as h*ll that I live with a devout, self-righteous, narrow-minded meditator who still cannot back up arguments for his "faith."
Looking forward to further reading. . .

Hi Rhonda

Its so strange. Ive experienced the same reactions in my family and from my wife - initially. However, as the years wore on - 39 of them - I saw a change. I saw understanding grow. I saw realisations dawn. I saw family see the path anew, and based on their experiences - understand the intent and substance of the Master and his struggling disciples.

What you see as self-righteousness or narrow-mindedness is in truth an interpretation. Your husband surely believes in what he does, and I respect that. In fact I respect any sincere efforts made by anyone of any faith to discover their Source.

Your husbands faith today, will in time become his experience.

Your criticism of the organisation is also a biased one from 'the outside'. But its really not a substantive path of the practice anyway.

Whats of importance is the simple teaching, the Master, and the efforts of those initiated onto the path. The rest is tinsel and not worth any attention.

Master has even said that eventually a religion will be made of the path. Another lifeless political organisation, devoid of the inspirational example set by the living Master.

If you read the books and attend satsang with an open mind and heart all the aspects of RSSB, are understood in context. Money seva is one form of seva. It is never pushed, and always voluntary. the greatest seva is meditation. Westerners are seated in front at satsangs because they travel so far and at great expense, not to separate them from 'unwashed masses'. That is an emotive term. If you sit with them you will experience the unwavering love directed at the Master. they do not care about the seating, just the privilege of being able to be in Masters company. I suppose that amongst the 500,000 or more attendees are some who are more interested in their bladder, or other oddities and distractions and mind games - but the vast majority are there to hear the Master speak, and to absorb the wonderful atmosphere.

With regard to the 5 holy names. What you refer to is totally inaccurate and some idle gossip you may have heard. The words are the same for all. They only have potency when granted by the Master. Once again this is all tinsel and distraction from the essence of the teachings and the Master.

What you regard as 'emphatic beliefs' can as easily be interpreted as devotion and sincerity in the mind and heart of your husband. We all need the space in this world to find our way. Im sure your husband would appreciate your support rather than any antagonism.

Knocking anyone else or their beliefs or organisations adds no value. :) Knocking an organisation that knocks RSSB is what I am guilty of. Bear with me, because I am also just a struggling soul.

Regards
Brad

to Brad et all,
Brad, as a fellow satsangi who feels at home at this churchless blog, I am on a strange place in the, perhaps false, spectrum of satsangi to ex-satsangi (whatever those terms mean). I sympathize with your statements...I think for me the main point this blog expresses, if I could summarize it, would be, that we just do not really know a damn thing. Fundamentialism arises when fear of the known pressures someone to tighten their grip on their claim to know, thus feeling threatened by those who claim otherwise. I do not think sant mat is ultimately a path of intellectual knowing, so claiming that master is god, whether one believes is or not, to me just sounds like an emtpy concept. Those of us who are attracted to sant mat, I believe, have a dtrong desire to pracice Bhakti, devotion, and love. The master is the form that we focus on to develop our own love, through meditation, but we can never really prove anything rationally, nor would a rational proof mean anything to someone thirsty for that love. I like Brian´s blog, because it keeps my mind more flexible, which is something I need, and enjoy, as a thinking, intellectual person. I almost feel that any debate about sant mat, no matter whether positive or negative, is a form of contemplation, because it connects me to engaging in anoither way besides meditation--and in a way that means something to me, with material I care about. It is a meaningful and enriching, and participatory forum. How great to be able to raise doubt, say whatever comes to mind, just to get it out, even if I know I want to keep walking the path.

What Adam said above is about as fair-minded an assesment of Sant Mat that I would ever expect to hear from a satsangi. I think it would be healthy for more RS devotees to adopt such an attitude.

However, if one takes the teachings literally as they are given in the books, it is uderstandable why Brad has such a dogmatic stance. Unquestioning obedience to the commands of the master and his teachings are the hallmark of a gurmukh or true devotee of the path. Flexibility and an open mind are not virtues for the ardent devotee. The mind is the enemy. One pointed focus to the exclusion of all else is the goal.

Hi Adam

I can appreciate and understand your sentiment completely.

It reminds me though of a story (this is just the jist of it) once told of a husband of a satsangi who had always spoken ill of the Master and santmat.

he was dying and his wife was so worried that he had never been initiated and with his negative attitude being so strong, would face death - alone. on his death bed, he was very peaceful. his wife asked him why he was so at peace, and he answered that Master had come for him. he then passed away. confused the satsangi went to dera and when she had the opportunity, she asked Master how this could be true. her husband was never initiated and never did meditation. how could it be true that Master had come to him at the time of death?

master said that her husband never stopped thinking about the master, be it in a negative way. with such contemplation on Him, how could he NOT be with his child at the time of his death?

Tucson,

unfortunately Im still very much a manmukh. :( but in terms of the battle with the mind and the senses - Churchill says it best -

'we shall fight(them) on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender'

:)

Brad, you remind me of me -- which ordinarily I'd consider to be a good thing. But...you remind me of me some years ago, when I had a Sant Mat / RSSB story for every situation.

I'd read all the books. I'd heard all the satsangs. I could regurgitate what other people had said with the best of them, just as a skilled preacher can do with the Bible.

However, stories aren't reality. And they aren't direct experience. I could tell you my own story, which would just be a story, but one with a different lesson.

It's be about a person whose name started with "B." A man who loved stories and beleived that they were true. Until he came to the end of his life and realized that he'd been living in a world of religious imagination. Then he was sad, because he knew that he'd had one chance to live, and he'd been living other people's stories -- not his own.

So you see: I like stories too. I just tell different ones to myself now.

Brad,

You are one hell of a dogmatic dumb-ass cult-freak. You haven't got a clue. Your RS rhetoric is as stale and putrid as vomit. And worse, you are a hypocrite. The RSSB, and more precisely it's current fraud of a leader, has srticly forbid discussion and preaching Santmat/RS on the internet. So you are actually violating the specific instructions of the very guru that you so pretentiously feign loyalty to.

It is YOU who are far more lost and confused than anyone else here, including Jay. In fact, Jay appears to at least be willing to be slightly open-minded and to give some consideration, whereas you obviously have neither direct experience nor critical thinking at all. For all your recent comments, you have said nothing of any significance.

So I'd suggest that YOU keep YOUR delusions to YOURself.

Here are some sample quotes (and partial quotes) of your lame babbling RS bullshit:


"when you practice the simple teachings of Santmat and ask sincere questions directly to the Master."

"He is a perfect example to everyone."

"then you are all deluded."

"adding to the global paranoia and confusion via this website."

"One ounce of inner experience and peace negates a lifetime of this externalism"

"When you are with Master"

"I have no insecurities about the views I hold ... I am however frustrated"

"You see, the path (...) is so simple, there is little room for debate."

"If practiced, through experience"

"Yet the intellectuals find space on these forums to blah blah"

"My shortcomings are many"

"You are hearing a version of a version of a version of a version, tainted by a disillusioned writer"

"His personal views and experiences with Santmat have resulted in this alternate forum being built."

"a hangout for like-minded cyber ghosts. And here I am being sucked into the same"

"Any serious effort (...) should include a 1st hand account and experience. This cyber-valley discussion remains intellectual percussion."

"Attend a satsang, read a book, listen to a tape, ask questions at satsang, write to the master. meet the master."

"not everyone will make a sincere search for the truth."

"not everyone will find a master."

"fewer still will be fortunate enough to find a god-realised soul - as their master."

"it is the father that does the finding, and the truth is caught not taught."

"the noise continues."

"It reminds me though of a story"

"unfortunately Im still very much a manmukh."

"Attend a satsang, read a book, listen to a tape, ask questions at satsang, write to the master. meet the master."

-- So this is all YOUR WORLD Brad... and YOU can sure as hell KEEP IT, because IT REALLY REALLY SUCKS.

No one but an arrogant pompous lame-brained pseudo-spiritual jack-ass would say the kind of stuff that you have said here. Your "master" is nothing but a cheap pretentious fraud, his teaching is nothing but warmed-over pseudo-spiritual blabber, and his disciples are all pathetically ignorant fools.

Brad, you don't have a fucking clue. You have no direct experience, you have no reason or critical thinking, and you have no discriminative wisdom. Spiritually, you are just a wimpering little bag of religious cult dogma.

I sure hope the rest of the other goof-ball RS satsangis down there in South Africa aren't as stupid as you are.

Get yourself a friggin real life dude.


Tao

wow. it seems you have real issues.

such vitriol.

while you say so much, you really know very little.

there are only 4 principles in santmat.

1. lacto vegetarianism
2. no habit forming drugs or alcohol
3. to lead a moral life
4. to practice a minimum of 2.5 hours of meditation - daily

no rules 'to strictly obey'. but then i thought you knew all this.

my master can stand on his own two feet and is and always has been open to scrutiny, enquiry and like you - unsubstantiated criticism. every god-man or woman that has been on this planet has faced the same. they are often ridiculed, stoned, burned, decapitated, hung on crosses and worse.

however, they bring a beautiful truth for those who are disillusioned with this world and want to return to their true home.

then, they are granted initiation by their perfect living master and given a simple technique to apply in their private lives. no pomp, no ceremony, no sunday service, no tv or radio adverts and announcements. just getting on with it.

im sure what i've said has been said before, but then again so has everything else. there is nothing new. what i wrote was for Rhonda.

i really do mean it when i say you should see a shrink. they could help you process the anger you have in you.

is Tao your real name or a pseudonym? something else to discuss with your shrink.

Dear Brian,

you make me smile.

you remind me of my science teacher who couldn't find the meaning of life in his school laboratory.

he also told lots of stories (and published books and papers), but could prove them with his chemicals and bunsen burners. he was a keen scientist, but understandably frustrated. he also later started blogs.

of course other stories are a bit grander in scale than those told by the science teacher, so they cant be proved in a science class.

however, there is another laboratory which may as well be secret, because so few people go there. but THERE is the proof.

However, anyone who wants to see the proof - must go there too.

But that takes effort (often a lifetimes worth) and sacrifice, and often ridicule and sanction. its an unpleasant route, but the views from there are priceless.

smiling is fun and healthy. it also feels better than when we shout and scream at people (much like Tao's ranting).

i think the idea of a forum like this is a good one. Tucson summed it up well.

however, any biased attacks against organisations like rssb and its proponent only reflect poorly on the forum itself.

when clear thinking is applied to the matter, and the facts considered (however they are seldom mooted by the one throwing the proverbial stone) - an improved understanding is gained.

Brian, i also dont see myself as a fundamentalist according to your own definition.

i. my opinions and views are just that. i dont require or need any compliance.

in fact i am happy for others if they have a path of their own to tread, or are in search of one. no brimstone.

ii. while i make statements that cant be substantiated in your science class, my laboratory is where my conviction is drawn from. that room is off limits to the general public, and has only two attendees... one day only one.

that laboratory is the church of the churchless.

so we will all keep sharing stories until we wake up from this maya. happy story-telling.

Brad,

Btw dude, did I mention that you are such a fucking idiot? The only "issues" here is that redundant RS garbage that you keep preaching and posting. I/we are not interested in the stupid RS vows ("4 principles in santmat"). I've been there and done that well over 30 years ago. So it's YOU who really knows very little about others here.


"my master can stand on his own two feet"

-- Your "master" is nothing more than a empty fraud, a rather ordinary charlatan, not any so-called "god-man". If you only knew what a fool you sound like....

"their perfect living master"

"a simple technique to apply in their private lives. (...) just getting on with it.'


-- You should really seek some serious professional psychiatric treatment for your delusions. You are a sad case, one of the worst to pass by this way in many months.

RS Brad,

You say 'this is your world Amaranth, Tao, Hines, Jay.

Why are you dissing me? If you had read my messages then you would have realised that I agree with sant mat and baba ji.

Hi Jay

sorry about that but im getting totally confused with the names. i often mix them up because of the blog layout.

sorry

T...t...tao

you are very brazen and bold online.

face to face - thats where the rubber hits the road.

but it takes raisins, and i doubt you have them, because you have obviously also lost your marbles.

lololol

Chai

How do you know what life-time you are in?
To be honest, it doesn't really matter if you are following a perfect living master. You can go back to sachkand in this life-time -- know if you really want. Its just that we don't really want it yet!

TAo,

Please do not use bad language (especially to Brad). It doesn't look very good on you.

Apology accepted Brad.

ii. while i make statements that cant be substantiated in your science class, my laboratory is where my conviction is drawn from. that room is off limits to the general public, and has only two attendees... one day only one.
Brad you are totally wrong on this one!
There is already only one attendee.You just
don't know it yet.

Hello Brad - I found your comments rather amusing, but I can totally understand where you're coming from. I'm sure there are sooo many 'exers' out there who understand where you're at.

A couple of points I felt the need to make. The first one is purely factual. You say 'read a book, attend satsang, write the master, meet the master'. C'mon dude, give us some sort of credence. Most of the people here, including myself, have done these things to saturation point. I, for one, even as an exer, have more knowledge of the RS (and related) books than the majority of initiates I know. I know this because they kept on telling me that, even as a teenager (some 11 years ago :). Countless satsangs, q&as and darshans of Gurinder. Up close (2 feet), individually in one on one situations (Haynes Park), eye to eye contact etc. Yeah, there have been some pretty amazing experiences, for sure.

Point is this, I used to have numerous 'inner' experiences, far too many different types (inc radiant form of Gurinder & several other past RSSB gurus) to go into here etc, but I reached another point in my life experience where I started to INTERPRET (very important word) these experiences OUTSIDE of the RS model/theology. I wrote a heartfelt letter to Gurinder with many questions of a fairly 'advanced' sort, to which I received no response. I find this ironic as these kind of questions are NOT in any of the books or satsangs, and not answered by post. In depth questions on the rights and wrongs of killing insects accidently not a problem to locate.

I think what I'm saying is that your contention that the answers are there for the faithfull is incorrect. In my experience it was a pretty formulaic group, no thinking outside the box. And outside the box is most definitely where genuine mysticism lays, imo.

And Brian, imo, is precisely discussing this more 'formless' type of mysticism, 'outside' of the box. That is why your criticisms read in many ways as fundamentalist as any Christian or Islamist etc, only thankfully less violent :-)

Your assertions are assertions of FAITH. Your lab where you find 'proof' is the mind, and the mind has infinite forms, so infinite realities will be 'proven'. Just as a Christian says their charismatic experiences prove the truth about Jesus, or Sai Baba devotees about him etc etc.

Many people have had the same and even more profound 'inner experiences' as you and yet INTERPRETED them differently, and eventually entered a more formless 'path'. Ultimately, it may even appear that all those phenomenal experiences generated through meditation were illusions, and that there is a far more powerful mysticism & spirituality in the infinitely more simplistic PRESENT MOMENT?

In Brian's posts I see hints and pointers towards that very type of mysticism.

And in your words a kind of naivety. One that I too once shared.

Well, I've just reread the entire page and interesting it was!

First of all, Obed - that was an *excellent* piece from 'Matt Chait' on July 29 7.13am! Thanks for that, brilliant I thought.

To Jay - You write "All will be revealed at the time of death. God help all those that criticise Sant Mat and babaji (God in the physical form -- if you like it or not)." Kinda sounds like a threat!? Well, as somebody who has literally been told this by Christians and Muslims too (occassionaly whilst I was an RS devotee too!), can you tell me why I should take your claim any more seriously than theirs? You write you have 5 decades of experience with RS? Could you clarify PRECISELY what it is you 'know' & how you came to 'know' it, that makes your claim above any more realistic than the muslims or christians threat of hellfire & damnation? Maybe it is RSers who go to hell, as they claim?

To Brad - you wrote "Id suggest that you keep your delusions to yourself instead of adding to the global paranoia and confusion via this website." - what global paranoia and confusion are you talking about? It's all a matter of perspective. Maybe it's the RS gurus who are confusing matters, and creating paranoia of eternal reincarnation etc with THEIR 'delusions'? Please explain to me coherently why your perspective is the objective 'reality'? What 'tests' are there we can do to determine who is & isn't discussing mental fantasies but objective truths and realities?

Thanks.

Manjit,

I wrote "initiated for just under s decade by Babaji". This should have said 1 decade and not 5 (typo).

Dear Manjit,
As usual I always enjoy your posts and thanks for the kind comment on "the I".I have however,a couple of
questions to put to you and of course anybody else
who would like to answer.
1)Have you ever felt yourself becoming a creator in your visions? Creating scenes etc.
2)Have you had experience of THE WALL?If one passes beyond
THE WALL one does not return to the body, so I was made to understand when I experienced it.

Thanks
Obed

Jay,

Your above comment to Chai;

"How do you know what life-time you are in?
To be honest, it doesn't really matter if you are following a perfect living master. You can go back to sachkand in this life-time -- know if you really want. Its just that we don't really want it yet!"

---I'm guessing that Chai was being sarcastic. Nothing more. In addition, I would guess that the master would inform the initiate which lifetime One was in.
Jay, could you describe what it is like in SachKand? If Sachkand is wonderful, then, why would someone not want it yet?


"To be honest, it doesn't really matter if you are following a perfect living master."

---You are honest, when you say that? Sounds like an interesting statement.

Brian,

Okay Chai was being sarcastic -- I thought he knew something I didn't!

I don't know what sachkand is like but I am from a family who have had inner visions and I know from them. I know that you are not supposed to tell anyone if you have gone upstairs!!, but one of my family members in particular was physically in this world but consciously in sachkand. Fascinating.

I thing I expressed myself incorrectly. You do need a perfect living master -- to show you the way.

Manjit,

Never wanted to come across threatening. I have been initiated for 1 decade, not 5 (it was a typo).

Brad, Manjit saved me the trouble of replying in much detail to you, in his 6:06 am comment above. Nicely said, Manjit.

Like I've said frequently here, I too have "been there and done that" with RSSB practice and meditation. Brad, you seem to be holding yourself up as some sort of model disciple who has done things right, while the rest of us idiots have just dabbled with the vows, etc. for years or decades (in my case, 35 years).

That's flat wrong. Like Manjit, I had lots of experiences in those 35 years, both in and out of meditation. I met with the gurus a number of times, and had the intimate face to face contact Manjit describes.

So I have an up close and personal knowledge of Sant Mat, as do others who comment here. You haven't yet responded to our view of "the path." You've just echoed RSSB platitudes.

That's fine. This is what religiosity consists of for most people -- re-stating someone else's dogma. But like Manjit said, genuine mysticism is something different. It's fresh, direct, non-dogmatic, non-conceptual, inclusive rather than exclusive.

You're very much into what I like to call Sant Mat 1.0. Interestingly, Gurinder Singh seems to be a 2.0 guru in many regards. So even from the standpoint of RSSB orthodoxy, I'd say that you're preaching an out of date sermon.

Well, guess I did have more to say than Manjit did. Surprise...

Obed - thanks! Good questions, I'm not sure if I can answer them to your satisfaction, but here goes.

1) Becoming 'creator' of my visions? I don't know exactly what you mean. I feel there are varying degrees of consciousness on the spectrum of experiences. In some, primarily the dream yoga, 'astral' type experiences, you definitely feel in 'control' of your visions and experiences. You can in a moment summon beautiful scenery, beautiful women, intoxicating elixers etc. 'Further' on, you may relinquish some of that sense of 'control', becoming rather more spontaneous & submisive to the simplicity of the present moment, and not being dragged by desires that are then expressed through self-created inner experiences.

Can you please describe what kind of experience you are talking about, if you can?

2) Again I'm not sure what you mean by wall? I would love to hear your description? For me, there was something akin to a 'wall'. It has been for me the last truely 'transforming' experience I had, with everything else since a plateau. After all the various indescribable inner experiences and 'regions' or blisses, insights or whatever else you call them, the final experience was approaching absolute self-anihilation (this was during a several week meditation home-intensive, btw). It is something I can only describe as infinitely more frightening than physical death, but no doubt that makes no sense. 'I' had the distinct knowledge that if I approached that dark hole of absolute anihilation, that 'everything' would be 'complete' or 'ended'. Of course logically and through common sense, this statement makes no sense whatsoever, but in the midst of the experience itself, it is self-evident truth. I made a conscious decision (the mechanics of thought in deep meditation are extremely difficult to express. Decision & conscious are words that makes no sense there!) to 'return' to normal life, and I did. I immediately ceased the retreat, and since then the insight gained in that moment remains. That enjoy your existence as it is, every moment is full of magic and bliss, if you allow it in. No need for complex mediation practices and cosmologies, or for struggling and suffering on spiritual paths. It's right here in every moment. That's all.

PS, thanks Brian. And it's okay Jay, I never really felt threatened :o)

My friend Manjit's excellent comment (6:06 AM) was quite well said, comprehensive, and right on target. It echos my own views my own sentiments as well as my own direct experience. Well done. Thank you Manjit.

------------------------


Now on to this rather ridiculous fellow Brad...

Brad apparently considers himself some sort of authority on Santmat/RS. What a joke. I am not even sure why he is here, other than being a kind of troll for RS.

So Brad, spiritually speaking, you've really got your head way up your ass. And you really should do some research into the archives and find out where Brian and the rest of us are coming from before you go blindly regurgitating the same stale old RS dogma. We've seen your type before. You don't impress anyone. In fact, you're looking more like an idiot every step you take. Like I said dude, you obviously have no wisdom and no direct experience of your own, and are just merely parroting RS dogma. Manjit and Brian have nailed you, so there isn't much more to say except for me to reply to a few of your gross mistakes:

Brad said (to me) among various other nonsense:

"you are very brazen and bold online. face to face - thats where the rubber hits the road. but it takes raisins, and i doubt you have them, because you have obviously also lost your marbles."

-- You would not ever want to tangle with me face to face... Definitely not physically, certainly not intellectually, and especially not spiritually. And Manjit has already done a real fine job taking you down without, and without even hardly trying. So if you are no match for Manjit, then you are certainly no match for myself or Brian. You are simply just another loud-mouth RS wimp with a pretentious facade. You are way way out of your league here Brad. As Brian and others have pointed out, you have brought nothing of your own to the table. You are simply a Santmat/RS version of religious cult fundamentism.

-------------------------------

Jay,

I see that unfortuntely I gave you a bit more credit than you really deserve. I was rather tough on you before, but I thought maybe after seeing the foolishness of Brad, you had opened up your perspective a little. I guess not.

You said: "If you had read my messages then you would have realised that I agree with sant mat and baba ji." ... "You can go back to sachkand in this life-time"

-- Brother Jay, don't you understand that this 'sachkhand" is not a place to go or that you have not reached? This notion is part of a dream of duality and separation. There is nowhere to "go back to" as some future goal. You, just like Brad, are caught up in a load of RS conceptual dogma. Listen much deeper to what Brian, Tucson, Manjit, and myself have said & are saying.

"TAo, Please do not use bad language (especially to Brad). It doesn't look very good on you."

-- Jay, don't fucking lecture me dude. I will use any god-damn language that I deem necessary to convey my particular point or my sentiments. I am quite a bit older and a hell of alot more experienced than you are, so if you don't like how I happen to say some things, then its tough darts little grasshopper. I say whatever I say for a reason. As you may not know, I can also be quite intellectually articulate and sublime... if I choose to be. But nowadays I go for a much more direct, even brash approach. That leaves Manjit to pick up the job of commenting in a much more nuanced and well articulated manner, of which he is by his nature, exceedingly capable. And that goes for Brian too.

"I don't know what sachkand is like but I am from a family who have had inner visions and I know from them." ... "one of my family members in particular was physically in this world but consciously in sachkand." ... "You do need a perfect living master -- to show you the way."

-- Jay, frankly speaking, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. You are (just like Brad) merely repeating crap that you have been told to by others who also don't know what the hell they are talking about either. It's that old 'blind leading the blind' syndrome. You don't "know' anything just because somebody told you they had "visions". Visions are phenomena of the mind. Realization and discrimantive wisdom is what counts, not visions. Visions are a dime a dozen. I have had extremely profound, even transcendental and cosmic so-called "visions", but it is always only subjective. Don't depend on what other fools tell you. Direct experience and realization is the thing, not mere visions. All of this stuff that you and Brad put up here as somehow being substantial and relevant is all in the realm of conceptual dogma or myth. It pales in comparison to the self-perfected state of instant presence, primordial awareness.

--------------------------------


And finally...

Obed asked:

1)Have you ever felt yourself becoming a creator in your visions? Creating scenes etc.

-- Yes.

2)Have you had experience of THE WALL?If one passes beyond
THE WALL one does not return to the body, so I was made to understand when I experienced it.

-- Yes. What you call "THE WALL" is the final perceptual stage just prior to atonement in brahman, or non-duality. However, the idea that "If one passes beyond THE WALL one does not return to the body", is based (imo) in fear arising from subtle duality. There is no rigid rule that such-and-such is the case. Because I myself have been right up to 'the wall' and even beyond, and yet I returned and am still quite present and manifesting on the so-called physical or bodily plane of existence.


I just read Manjit's comment about the wall. Again, Manjit has articulated and reflected my own experience with this ultimate experience of some sort of trans- dimensional barrier or "wall" just prior to absorbtion (which is total annililation) into utimate reality (for lack of a better term).

Amazingly, Manjit's description is virtually identcal with my own experience. Here are Manjit's statements of his experience that are identical, or very nearly so, to my own experience:

"For me, there was something akin to a 'wall'."

"It has been for me the last truely 'transforming' experience I had, with everything else since a plateau."

"After all the various indescribable inner experiences and 'regions' or blisses, insights or whatever else you call them, the final experience was approaching absolute self-anihilation"

"It is something I can only describe as infinitely more frightening than physical death"

"'I' had the distinct knowledge that if I approached that dark hole of absolute anihilation, that 'everything' would be 'complete' or 'ended'."

"this statement makes no sense whatsoever, but in the midst of the experience itself, it is self-evident truth."

"I made a conscious decision (...) to 'return' to normal life, and I did."

"since then the insight gained in that moment remains."

"That enjoy your existence as it is, every moment is full of magic and bliss, if you allow it in."

"No need for complex mediation practices and cosmologies, or for struggling and suffering on spiritual paths."

"It's right here in every moment. That's all."


Exactly... thats it. Wonderful.


Brian,

it seems you missed Humility 101 the way you dish out judgements labeling my views as platitudes, with a 'been there done that' attitude.

So sad. Ego is like a leaf floating on the ocean at night - insidious and extremely subtle. "they" say its the last of the passions to leave us.

Your pompous statements at me like 'you restate other dogma' are strange coming from an academic like yourself who has spent a considerable amount of time doing just that - and publishing them too.

Then having an epiphany (probably more like a realisation that you cant take the pace and that the path is too dry - not enough fireworks and erupting krakatoa in your science lab), and then gracefully "retiring" from santmat. You dance wordfully and rather artfully around this obvious blip on your lifepath.

Well, this is your little podium so while the RSSB spotlight and stage has has fallen away for you, why not bang your drum here, and have your sycophants lap it all up.

Manjit is not my Master, and having spent 39 years on the path and having traveled down many roads and testing them, I would far rather put my money on my Masters interpretation of Mysticism thank you. the books ive read, the Ken Wilbers and other philosophical pseudo-mystical academics - all pale against the simple example set by my Master.

I was initiated by Master Charan Singh, but am in awe of the young Master Gurinder Singh. While Master Gurinder Singh may appear to be delivering a 2.0, actually its the same simple teaching spun a little differently for the distracted, impatient, nano-ipod-dvd-net, instant coffee and divorce generation. The folk who need a logical, nuts-and-bolts spin - rather than the fatherly grace and patience of Master Charan Singh.

When you are next in South Africa, give me a call. We can have a coffee (on me) and a face to face chat. so much more real and meaningful than this cyber-valley stuff.

Regards
Brad


Footnote to self - Listen to Albert. His words ring true.

Tao, you are a mini George Bush.

Its amazing how you give yourself license to be an incredible egotist while simultaneously claiming some spiritual interest.

You are a sad joke. Much like the loudmouths at school, who eventually got theirs noses bloodied when a bigger loudmouth came along.

It isnt for me to deliver you with a bloodied nose, although Im sorely tempted.

It will come from the universe you set in motion with your own thoughts, words and deeds.

Tieme Ranapiri's words apply here and now, as they do always -

"As dew is drawn upwards , in rain to descend , Your thoughts drift away and in destiny blend. You cannot escape them , for petty or great , Or evil or noble , they fashion your fate. Somewhere on some planet, sometime and somehow Your life will reflect your thoughts of your now.
(HIS)law is unerring , no blood can atone - The structure you built you will live in - alone."

Rock on Universe!

Brad, you keep missing the point (which I guess has been my point -- and that of others).

I don't claim to have no ego. I have a big ego.

I don't claim to know the truth about ultimate reality. I'm clueless about this.

You're the one who has been claiming that he enjoys a high state of spiritual realization and knows that he is on a genuine path to truth.

So the burden of providing some evidence for your claim rests on you. I've just been saying "I don't know," and asking you "How do you know?"

You keep shifting the questions back to me and other commenters. But it's entirely reasonable to ask someone who claims to know the truth about the cosmos to provide some reasons why others should believe that claim.

This is why I keep saying that you're no different from any other fundamentalist who simply says "I'm right." I respect your devotion to Sant Mat and RSSB, just as I respect that of a Christian, Muslim, or anyone else toward their own faith.

I know how you think, because I used to have the same attitude. Thus I can't say you're wrong to hold those rigid attitudes.

All I and others can do is suggest that you might benefit from examining the basis for your views, and consider that actually you are the one who is intellectualizing and conceptualizing spirituality -- since many of your claims have no basis in direct experience.

Dear Manjit and tAo,
Thanks for the replies.In order to partially answer Manjit I feel the need to explain a little of my
thinking.The observer in quantum physics plays a
major role in what potentialities can happen.
In the vision I had I was sharply aware of the
fact I was changing the the scenes as I moved
through them.In a very modest way I was playing
the role of a creator.I felt that in these scenes the observer and the observer field were primary and the contents were secondary. I naturally wondered if
others had had similar experiences.
With regard to THE WALL.In all honesty I cant
compare "my wall" experience to yours Manjit and tAo's deeply meaningful experiences.
Thank you both for sharing those very important
moments

Dear Manjit and tAo,
Thanks for the replies.In order to partially answer Manjit I feel the need to explain a little of my
thinking.The observer in quantum physics plays a
major role in what potentialities can happen.
In the vision I had I was sharply aware of the
fact I was changing the the scenes as I moved
through them.In a very modest way I was playing
the role of a creator.I felt that in these scenes the observer and the observer field were primary and the contents were secondary. I naturally wondered if
others had had similar experiences.
With regard to THE WALL.In all honesty I cant
compare "my wall" experience to yours Manjit and tAo's deeply meaningful experiences.
Thank you both for sharing those very important
moments

Brad,

You are definitely 'out to lunch'. In fact, after this last response frome me, you don't deserve and won't get any further attention or commentary from me. In my estimation, you are nothing more than another RS touting internet troll.

And I am about as opposied to and unlike the facism of GW Bush as one could ever possibly be.

I am overwhelmingly an Objectivist (as in the Objectivism of Ayn Rand).

As a human being, I have an absolute and innate and fundamental right and license to be a free thinker, to be objective about what is real, and to operate in ego and self-interest. I am an advocate of egoism and of reason and of individualism.

I do NOT subscribe to the sickness of altruism, of collectivism, or of mysticism. I also claim no such "spiritual interest".

Also, the problem with your little "loudmouth" theory is that it is you who are the loudmouth... and I am that more powerful guy, and your nose has already been blodied and broken by others before me. Yet you grumble and whine and make idle threats that you are "sorely tempted". That's pathetic.

You are just more obvious evidence of the lame mentality that is engendered by the RS cult and which is manifested in it's foolish followers like yourself.

Your destructive and evil philosophy and religion of altruism is anti-individual, anti-reason, anti-mind, anti-life.

I affirm John Galt's oath which was written by Ayn Rand in her great work "Atlas Shrugged":

"I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine."

And btw, the structure that I built with my own thought and mind, and by my own hands, I already live in. I would not have it any other way.


John Galt's speech (text & audio): http://www.danielstamate.com/johngalt.html

Ayn Rand and Objectivism: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_intro

Ayn Rand index: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ayn_rand_index

Ayn Rand videos:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1xKGZMwaIG8

http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ayn+Rand+Mike+Wallace+Interview+1959+part

http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ayn+Rand+Phil+Donahue+Interview&search_type=&aq=-1&oq=

Ayn Rand Institute lectures:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_ayn_rand_philosophy_video_lectures


TAo and Brian,

How do you know tha sachkand doesn't exist? Just imagine a chemistry experiment that takes 4 hours to make a product. Now, if you stop the experiment at 2 hours you will only get some intermediate step. You need to go to 4 hours to get the product.

Similarly, in sant mat, you need to meditate from the day you are initiated to the day you die -- its a life long process. If you do your duty with conviction you will go to sachkand -- okay it may take more than one life time (upto 4) but you will get to the product!

See what I mean?

Also you are not alone when you are meditating. The master is with you all the time. If you think you are alone than its because of your big fat ego.

TAo -- Pleasse don not use swear words, it makes you less credible. Come on man.

Brad,

You stated,

".....and having spent 39 years on the path and having traveled down many roads and testing them, I would far rather put my money on my Masters interpretation of Mysticism thank you."

---You would be the 35 plus year SantMat (current) devotee, I was inquiring about, a number of months back. Interesting to run across such personality.

My questions,
--What is your take on other Perfect Masters of SantMat from other branches of SantMat? Is your money on their interpretations too?

--WOW, after 39 years, why are you blogging?
Should you best be using your time meditating? After 39 years, why limit yourself to 2 1/2 hours a day.

--Your tough debating style in this thread, is this an example of a devotee with so many years of experience?

--Could you be a self appointed militant group leader of SantMat?

I have nothing against SantMat, I am not a member. However, you don't make a good example for someone to follow.
Best regards,
Roger

Jay made a few remarks and I briefly responded:

"How do you know tha sachkand doesn't exist?"

--That question goes both ways. How do you know it does?

"If you do your duty with conviction you will go to sachkand -- okay it may take more than one life time (upto 4) but you will get to the product!"

--How do you know that?

"See what I mean?"

--Do you see what I mean?

"The master is with you all the time."

--How do you know?

"If you think you are alone than its because of your big fat ego."

--So if one loses their self-importance they will not think they are alone?

Jay,

You stated,

"Just imagine a chemistry experiment that takes 4 hours to make a product. Now, if you stop the experiment at 2 hours you will only get some intermediate step. You need to go to 4 hours to get the product."

--A synthetic chemical procedure, that is reproduceable, would not be a chemistry experiment. Hopefully, this chemical procedure has been tested by an independent chemist, and found to be accurate.

With this known procedure, in hand, and it being known that 4 hours are needed to prepare the product, why would someone want to stop the synthetic process after 2 hours?

What is the logic in your statement? In a chemistry experiment, One doesn't know the 4 hour time needed to prepare the chemical.
That is why it is called a chemistry experiment.
Again best wishes,
Roger

Roger,

The experiment takes 4 hours has been published by an independent chemist, so we know it should take that long and give a particular product/result.

Similarly, masters have walked the path (tried and tested it) and know there is a product/result (sachkand). This experiment takes anywhere between one life time to 4 lifetimes (depending on Karma). But it is reproducible.

Jay,

The independent chemist would not publish the chemical research of a research chemist.
The research chemist would publish his/her work. The independent chemist would be noted or referenced in the research paper to be published.

You stated,

“Similarly, masters have walked the path (tried and tested it) and know there is a product/result (sachkand). This experiment takes anywhere between one life time to 4 lifetimes (depending on Karma). But it is reproducible.”

Who could we appoint to verify the above statement? Nothing wrong with your statement. Would Brian, Tao, Tucson or Brad qualify?

Jay, the problem with your chemistry experiment analogy is that it isn't really scientifically analogous.

What sort of experiment has no defined outcome? Meaning, that the outcome usually (or often) won't be observed in a human lifetime, but requires supposed reincarnations to manifest?

In my first book I spoke of someone who writes to the Nobel prize committee and says, "I've discovered the ultimate truth of the universe. You'll have the proof of this after you die, but please give me my Nobel prize now."

This person would be laughed at. Yet this is precisely the situation with Sant Mat/RSSB meditation. Results supposedly only are obtained within four lifetimes, so there's always an out, an explanation, for failure to achieve results in this lifetime.

Also, you presume that the experiment has been confirmed by various people. Yet there's no evidence of this. So it really isn't a matter of repeating an experiment, but of assessing an unproven hypothesis.

As another commenter said, what evidence do you have that anyone, anyone at all, has reached "Sach Khand" or ultimate reality? Isn't there merely assertions to this effect, just as Muslims believe the saints in their tradition have ascended to paradise?

Jay wrote: "Similarly, masters have walked the path (tried and tested it) and know there is a product/result (sachkand). This experiment takes anywhere between one life time to 4 lifetimes (depending on Karma). But it is reproducible."

--Again I will ask. How do YOU know this is true? What if it isn't?

Why do you believe, for instance, that it may take 4 lifetimes? Why 4 and not 3 or 7?

Jay has written:

"How do you know tha sachkand doesn't exist?"

-- Jay, first of all, sachkhand is just a word which is a symbol for an idea in your mind. At this point, that's all it is. It is not something which YOU yourself have experienced. It is not something which can be verified by other observers. It is not somehere or something, a place that you have actually been. It is only a matter of faith that it exists. All you have is what a few supposed 'mystics' have said. And you don't actually know for sure that they have experienced or have been to sachkhand either. There is no evidence or proof of that anywhere. It is nothing beyond an idea that they have presented. It is an idea which you have bought into, but which you cannot verify. And in fact, none of them have ever actually claimed to have experienced or been to this place that they have called "sachkhand". There is no objective proof that any such thing exists whatsoever. It is merely an abstract idea, not a physical place that others can go to and actually see and verify that it exists. It is supposedly a spiritual realm, an exalted spiritual plane far beyond the material world. As such, it is merely nothing more than a subjective supposition. Even if someone has had an experience of their consciousness ascending to some sort what appears to them to be a spiritual plane (that they deem to be sachkhand), only that person is experiencing that subjectively. It is not an obective reality. In other words, there is no way that this experience can be established as an objective reality. It is forever in the realm of a subjective experience. Therfore there is no objective proof that it actually exists. Therfore is it is all nothing more than a matter of FAITH, especially if you have not experienced it but you believe in it simply because someone else said that it is there. If you cannot see it, touch it, hear it, sense it, or experience it in some objective way that others can also experience, then for all intent and purposes it does NOT exist. Until you can actually show it's existence to others, then it is merely just an abstract idea in the mind. That is why your mysticsim and the mysticism of santmat is all based merely upon faith alone, and not upon a tangible objective reality. Sant mat is NOT a science, no matter what they try to say. The result, ie: attaining sachkhand, is not something which is reproducable for other people to actually see, to know, to experience, to verify. It is simply a supposition which will remain a kind of myth until the reality of it can be verified objectively.


"Similarly, in sant mat, you need to meditate from the day you are initiated to the day you die -- its a life long process."

-- Why? For what reason? Based on what tangible verifiable goal? You must be incredibly foolish or crazy to spend your entire life on something, a myth, of which there is no shred of evidence of its existence whatsoever. To waste your life on some supposed future achievement, of which there is no eveidence that it exists, is to miss the reality and squander the gift of your life here and now. That is the epitimy of foolishness, a tradgedy beyond all reason. I feel very sorry for people like you who have been captured and deceived by a fiction, an illusion, a belief and a faith in something that does not exist. You are wasting your most precious life. This is tragic.


"If you do your duty with conviction you will go to sachkand"

-- That is what you say and what you believe, but there is absolutely no evidence or proof of that occuring. And why should anyone want to go to some supposed "sachkand" heaven, when the very life they presently have is the opportunity that is quite REAL?


"it may take more than one life time (up to 4) but you will get to the product"

-- Where is the proof of that? That is one of the most ridiculous absurd propositions ever presented... as there is no certainty that there is even anything beyond this one life... what to speak of 4 lifetimes! Anyone who would bank on that kind of nonsense is the worst kind of fool in the world. If you actually believe that kind of nonsense, then you are by necessity mentally ill or intellectually retarded.


"See what I mean?"

-- No. There is nothing to see or mean. You have shown nothing at all, other than your blind faith and that you have an utter lack of reason. I wonder, have you any kind of formal education at all? Do you not know the value of reason and logic? And at the very least, have you no common sense at all?


"you are not alone when you are meditating. The master is with you all the time."

-- Another faith-based notion that amounts to nothing more than belief in the unseen, in a fantasy.


"you think you are alone than its because of your big fat ego."

-- The ego is the very thing which makes us human, which makes human beings able to think and achieve and progress and create. Your philosophy is utterly lame... it is anti-individual, anti-reason, anti-mind, and anti-life.


"TAo -- Pleasse don not use swear words, it makes you less credible."

-- Credibility does not rest upon what kind of language I use, but upon the reason and the logic and the meaning and the value and the reality of my words.


"masters have walked the path (tried and tested it) and know there is a product/result (sachkand)."

-- How do you know that? They have given no evidence whatsoever, only mere words. There is no such "product/result" to be found anywhere. You are simply believing in a supposition. You have no proof, nor do they.


"This experiment takes anywhere between one life time to 4 lifetimes (depending on Karma). But it is reproducible."

-- Then by all means, do reproduce it. Show us the evidence. But you must reproduce it with tangible objective evidence, and within this one lifetime. Otherwise, none of it is credible. It is simply a fantasy... a singularly deceptive fantasy and a delusion and a lie that has been peddled by most all the religions and all the mystics down through history, to the continued detriment of humanity. And you are just one more link in that chain of sickness.

About all of this, Brian very rightly stated:

"This person would be laughed at. Yet this is precisely the situation with Sant Mat/RSSB meditation. Results supposedly only are obtained within four lifetimes, so there's always an out, an explanation, for failure to achieve results in this lifetime."

"Also, you presume that the experiment has been confirmed by various people. Yet there's no evidence of this. So it really isn't a matter of repeating an experiment, but of assessing an unproven hypothesis."


Jay, I must say that you are worse than I realized. You have bought deeply into a phony bill of goods. I can only warn you not to waste your precious life on such illusions. Your own life is REAL... but these ideas that you believe in and have faith in, are nothing but mere abstract fiction.

Please go read and seriously contemplate (study) upon this:

http://www.danielstamate.com/johngalt.html

Tao,

Thanks for the reference to Ayn Rand. What an interesting person, she is. I enjoyed reading through the materials.
Thanks,
Roger

Rhonda, a belated comment on your comment (and Brad's response to you)...

I enjoyed your honest thoughts. They mirror my own experience. It wasn't until I married a non-satsangi and saw RSSB/Sant Mat through her eyes that the teachings and organization looked clearer to me.

Brad echoes the party line -- namely, that the organization, rituals, superstitious beliefs and such aren't important. That only meditation and love for the guru are important.

Well, if that was so, RSSB would be much different. Actually, all the "extraneous" stuff isn't really extraneous at all -- it is encouraged and fostered by the organization, and is part and parcel of what has become a religion.

You pointed out the dogma, rigid beliefs, feelings of unique entitlement, etc. This is real. It isn't genuinely spiritual, though, which is why many people (like me) have decided to focus on pure and simple spirituality, rather than the ritualized and conceptualized version that RSSB has become.

Congratulations on finding your own way. You're looking for truth in the right place: reality.

tAo wrote the following in response to Jay's remarks concerning Sant Mat:

"To waste your life on some supposed future achievement, of which there is no evidence that it exists, is to miss the reality and squander the gift of your life here and now."

--I think what tAo has presented here is key. All satsangis or believers in any faith, religion or dogma should, in my opinion, think about this very carefully before committing themselves "hook, line and sinker" to something that may or may not produce results until they are dead. To me, this is a little crazy.

What if This Right Now is IT and you are missing It because you think It is some goal to be attained in the future? You never realize you are there because you continually think it is somewhere else.

Do you wish to devote your life to a belief system that may turn out to simply be a figment of imagination? It sounds nice, it may be true, but how do you know if it is?.. Because some white bearded guy with a turban and his starry-eyed, sycophant, fawning followers say so? Because he has a few scriptures and books to back him up? Who wrote those scriptures and books? How do you know they knew anything?

I have several friends who remain on the Sant Mat path after many years of practice. At least one of them openly admits to never having a single "inner" experience of light and sound or vision of the master's radiant form. This after some 37 years on the path and sticking to the vows.

I ask why he sticks with the path and he says the lifestlye suits him. He likes the routine of daily meditation, the diet, etc. He says his approach to Sant Mat is "eclectic". That is, he stays with the vows of the path, but at the same time explores and is open to other avenues of spirituality. He keeps his "options open", but is not prepared to eliminate Sant Mat from his life because, I believe, he is not prepared to face the abyss of infinity without some sort of anchor to hold on to.

Isn't this the real reason why so many cling to irrational belief systems, religions, gurus and metaphysical fantasies?

Tuscon, you write:

"What if This Right Now is IT and you are missing It because you think It is some goal to be attained in the future?"

Tuscon, I know right now is it, and I am not looking to the future, but most of the time my mind is full of internal dialogues, emotional reactions, and various other types of noise. Clearly, the IT that this is can be related to in a variety of ways. My relationship to Sant Mat is not about delayed gratification or blind belief, it is about believing in practice--stilling and concentrating the mind so that I can relate to the IT from a different vantage point. Perhaps IT doesn't change, but we can, and our perspective can.

Also, Brian, I was initially attracted to Sant Mat because it did seem like the closest thing I had found to "pure spirituality". And I am trying to keep it that way for myself. If I stick to the vows and meditate, I feel good about my relationship to the path. I don't feel I need to go to satsang if I don't want to, nor do I feel I need to do seva if it doesn't float my boat. Sometimes I go, sometimes I don't. And I don't care what RSSB has to say about this either way. Charan Singh has made it clear that people with different personalities and inclinations of mind can relate in their own way, within the bounds of the meditation and vows, and I am sticking to this philosophy.

Adam wrote: "Tuscon, I know right now is it, and I am not looking to the future, but most of the time my mind is full of internal dialogues, emotional reactions, and various other types of noise."

--That stuff is OK. That's what IS right now. As you go with Now (no resistance) that stuff will settle down, but if it doesn't that's OK too, unless you think about it. "You" have no control. It all happens of it's own accord. There is only the appearance of choice and volition performed by a pseudo-entity.

"Clearly, the IT that this is can be related to in a variety of ways."

--This is not any sort of "thing" that can be related to. You can't be the object of yourself.

"My relationship to Sant Mat is not about delayed gratification or blind belief,"

--Why would you be involved if you didn't feel there was a purpose, goal or gratification? You believe there is an end product.

"it is about believing in practice--stilling and concentrating the mind so that I can relate to the IT from a different vantage point"

--There is no other vantage point. You are IT. How can you have a have a vantage point to see what is seeing?

"Perhaps IT doesn't change, but we can, and our perspective can."

--IT is not perceived. It is a doing, but not a thing. Change appears in IT, but as IT you don't.

Quote for the day: THAT entire conceptual universe is THIS consciousness which I am...I who am not.

Tuscon,
you write well about this point. But let me say this. Quite simply, meditation can make me feel different, whether or not there is an "I" or not. That's all the proof I need.

Brian, TAo and Tucson,

Thank you for you detailed comments regarding my chemistry experiment.

More thanks to TAo for not swearing at me. Your message was actually nice to read.

I think for me, sant mat is the way forward and the reason why is because I believe it will work because I trust baba ji. You can call me naive or what ever, but thats how it is.

Tuscon,
I write, and then you write:

"Clearly, the IT that this is can be related to in a variety of ways."

--This is not any sort of "thing" that can be related to. You can't be the object of yourself.

I think your point is misleading and faulty, Tuscon. Perhaps ultimately you are correct, that there is no individual self....but to say there is no "thing" to relate to implies that talking about relating at all is insubstantial. Relation is an extremely important concept and seems to have very real consequences. We can relate violently or lovingly, for example. And your point about going with the now with no resistance is a point about relationship to the present moment. So while your discourse is lovely, it doesn't include an acknowledgment of duality, which, if only an illusion, is something that feels very real sometimes (most of the time). Perhaps the mystery is that we can be both dual, individuated and the whole at the same time.

Adam said: "but to say there is no "thing" to relate to implies that talking about relating at all is insubstantial."

--Relating is just relating. What I mean is that, in my view, Reality is not a "thing" that can be known objectively because what would perceive it IS the Reality. An eye can't see itself. All an eye can do is see. Does the ocean, ocean itself? No, it is just oceaning. I know this terminology is strange, because we don't have words that symbolize the type of perceiving I'm trying to illustrate. Reality is a doing, and not a thing or object to be perceived outside of itself.

It's not X perceives or realizes Y. Y is just being and there is nothing else outside of it. As soon as one says, "Aha! I perceive Y.", that is impossible because that would be Y objectivizing itself. This is not to say there isn't Y, it's just that it can't be pinned down as a thing to be known, rather it is the action of life which we really are. It is the being of it, not the perceiving of it.

To illustrate: One time I was the action of life I have been speaking about. tucson was nowhere to be found, but as the action of life everything was 'I' in its multifaceted forms. Then tucson shows up and gets all excited, "Oh, wow! This is it. Now I...

I was about to say "understand" but as soon as the recogniton came in that tucson was experiencing Reality, the unity of Reality vanished and the duality of tucson and his objects was back in play again.

When this happens don't try to grasp it or own it. Just go with it.

Tuscon,
I see what you are saying.....

just out of curiosity, besides you thinking that Gurinder Singh is not the real deal, and that sant mat is not for real, so you see any benefit under any circumstance for some kind of meditation practice? Or do you feel any practice will only reinforce separation?

Adam,

I think if you enjoy meditation and it helps you to feel relaxed and centered, gives you health benefits, etc. Why not? Meditation, like exercise, has been proven to be beneficial for many people. You may even while meditating discover what we have been talking about, but I don't think it's a prerequisite. Meditate for its own sake and enjoy it. Whatever happens, happens.

Personally, I find the endless repetition of "holy names" in Sant mat meditation to be less effective than other methods. Hours of repeating a mantra is, to me, mind numbing rather than awareness enhancing. Others may feel differently. In Sant Mat, a numb mind is a good mind, but not in my opinion.

The zen method of just sitting with awareness fully present is more to my liking. If thoughts are present, watch them pass like any other phenomena and just 'be here now' as the cliche' goes.

Hi Tuscon,
Thanks for your response.

Adam said:

"Quite simply, meditation can make me feel different, whether or not there is an "I" or not. That's all the proof I need."

-- You say that meditation makes you "feel different". But lots of things make one "feel different". And shabda yoga meditiation is not prescribed just to make one "feel different". There are other forms of meditation that may bring one calmness and tranquility or clarity. But you say that it makes you "feel different". So I am assuming that you mean it makes you feel better? OK, bt in what way? And how is it that you feel better? What change does it seem to bring for you? And if you feel different, then why do you need to repeat that over and over again?

I have a feeling... and my feeling is this: that you are merely giving an excuse, putting up some handy excuse as to why you pursure the santmat form of meditation and all of its attached belief system. Sure, meditation has its benefits, but the benefits depend entirely upon the type of meditation practiced. However, ultimately nothing can change (or needs to change) what IS.

Let me put it to you like this:

Each and every thing, is part of the WHOLE picture of life as it is happening moment to moment. That means anything that you can come up with, anything that you can focus on, anything that you give attention to, anything that you relate to, or anything that you somehow think is IT. ...BUT... NO ONE THING in itself (or group of things) is IT. That means that meditation is one thing, but it is not the whole picture. Sant Mat is one thing - one path, but it is not the whole picture. There is no one thing that is the whole picture. If you fixate on one thing - like Sant Mat - then you will never comprehend or achieve the whole picture. No thing or many things will give you the whole picture. If you choose anything then you necessarily exclude the rest. No matter what you choose, be it Sant Mat or ANYTHING else among the infinite possibilities, you will not see or grasp the whole. If you cannot see the whole, then you are simply stuck inside of one tiny little thing, one tiny little cell, one tiny little bubble.

The only way that you can ever achieve what it is that you really desire (which btw is the whole), is to no fixate upon any particular thing, any one idea, any one belief, any one teaching, any one meditation, any one path, any one philosophy, any one thing at all. As soon as you cease to fixate upon one particular thing as being the way or the path to whatever it is that you think is the goal, then you will achieve the goal - which is the whole, the totality. This totality is already here and now. But if you fixate upon any PART of it, then you cannot know the whole of IT. And until you know the whole of it, you will never know the bliss and completeness that you seek.

It is the very activity of your fixation upon one path or one practice etc etc that prevents you from ever embracing and realizing the object of your desire, of your search, of your practice.

The only REAL meditation that will ever be, is when you cease fixating upon any path, and embrace the WHOLE. Only then will you have true meditation, spontaneous unbroken perfect meditation.

The so-called meditation that you are now doing and practicising is not true meditation at all. It is a delusion, an imaginary act occuring in the hall of mirrors within the theatre of dreams.

It is also pointless and useless for you to debate duality versus non-duality as you are often wont to do.

There is nothing for you to do. There is nothing you can do. You need do nothing at all. Everything is absolutely perfect, just as it is. Simply cease trying to achieve something, something spiritual, by fixating upon one thing, one part, one belief, one path, one practice, one meditation... upon ANY one particular thing or things.


--------------------

Jay said:

"I think for me, sant mat is the way forward and the reason why is because I believe it will work because I trust baba ji."

-- As long as you base your life and your belief and your trust in someone whom you do not know, who has nothing to do with you (and vice-versa), who cannot help you, and who will never be able to help you or give you the answer... then you are wasting your precious life. When you look to another for the answer, then you have already lost your own self.


-----------------------

Adam,

Tucson said: "This is not any sort of "thing" that can be related to. You can't be the object of yourself."

Adam said: "Relation is an extremely important concept and seems to have very real consequences. And your point about going with the now with no resistance is a point about relationship to the present moment."

-- There is no such "reltionship to the present moment". The present moment is not a thing, not static. It is ever-fresh. It is a happening - a process - a becoming, not a thing to have a relationship with. And there is no discrete YOU there to have a relationship. The person that yo feel and think is YOU, is actually just the moment itself. There are not two things in the ever-fresh moment... such as you being apart from the moment. You simply ARE the moment. That's all. That's why you can never attain "it" by fixating on anything.

"while your discourse is lovely, it doesn't include an acknowledgment of duality, which, if only an illusion, is something that feels very real"

-- As I said above, it is pointless and useless for you to debate duality versus non-duality as you are often wont to do.

"we can be both dual, individuated and the whole at the same time."

-- There is neither. There is only the whole.


Tao, Tucson and Brian

The 3 ego-driven high priests of TCOTC who are doing their damndest to promote confusion and lack of life purpose.

Your cyber lives here seem to be driven by the need to stroke your egos and puff up each others purposeless meanderings and supreme effort to prove that faith and meditation is a wasted effort in the search for an imaginary creator.

thou protest too much.

my theory is a simple one. these self appointed priests are scared to surrender to the grandest design of the universe and submit themselves to the simple duty of meditation and devotional practice. it demands too much from their lives and implies they have to give up some kind of control they believe they have.

rather they make every effort to theorise anti-arguments, postulate equally unprovable theories and huff and puff expletives when their positions are challenged.

they forget that less is more. that silence is golden, that those who truly know - dont have to say a word, that some things - like gravity and god - dont need to be proved, but require experience and surrender to discover their inexorable reality. that like most things in life, sacrifice is needed to make progress.

this sacrifice, dedication and focus they label as fundamentalist and criticise as pointless and naive.

When Brian starts off a post like "I begin by assuming that God, if such exists, is either going to have a personal or an impersonal nature." .... you can be sure you are reading the words of a very confused person. Its like saying when a ball is thrown into the air - it may continue upwards for a while, or start falling back to earth. Give me strength! The obvious and unimportant is dissected and debated instead of left to float away like debris into space.

instead of looking at the largest star orbiting our planet and simply enjoying its rays, they choose to enter a dark and dusty building, travel down the stairwells into its cold bowels, open dusty cupboards and then debate the existence of a star, of warmth and light and its purpose ... they argue that any effort made to find a staircase that travels upward, that any effort to climb the same stairs, that any belief in the star and its warmth - is wasted unless it can be empirically proven to be true in the dark and damp corners of the basement.

get out the cupboard. stop theorising. just enjoy its rays.

Brad, you believe in a perfect god? Then why would you put down other people who believe that life here is perfect? If god is perfect, then everything is perfect- would that not be the case? In fact I feel that the word perfection signifies absolutely nothing. But for the sake of dialogue what I find the closest thing to perfection is that you accept that everything you perceive ( be it one thing in particular or the whole ) is perfect in it's existence. Which means that however profound your experiences in meditation are, you should still see how profound life really is- with those experiences or without them. You are not bigger than life ( or nature,god,the all ) are you? No you are not bigger than anything as you are but one thing among many. Just because someone has had experiences when meditating doesn't mean that he or what he says, thinks, feels, knows is more important than those who did not have such experiences. If he would think of himself as something more, then he would truly be putting his ego above others. Even in RSSB they say that this path is not the only path to perfection. And it would be good that those who say that would actually do what they say.

I like what you say Amaranth. Thanks

tao, you write:

"I have a feeling... and my feeling is this: that you are merely giving an excuse, putting up some handy excuse as to why you pursure the santmat form of meditation and all of its attached belief system. Sure, meditation has its benefits, but the benefits depend entirely upon the type of meditation practiced. However, ultimately nothing can change (or needs to change) what IS...."

tao, thanks for your comments. Let me say clearly that I don't meditate to "feel better." I know some people use it as an escape....I don't. I have chosen surat shabd yoga, because I believe in the notion of merging with the sound current. A human being is both a context and not a context at the same time. What I mean by this, is that culturally, I am Adam, a composer, a doctoral candidate, a husband, a man, etc. But I am also just energy, stuff, whatever, like everything else is. When I say meditation makes me "feel different," what I mean is that by focusing on sound, I am given a taste of an experience of "no-context." What you say about my attachment to the sant mat belief system is right--I am attached to it. I am meditating under the assumption that by focusing my attention, becoming very small and fixed, I might get a taste of the whole...surely you know what I mean after being drawn to Sant Mat yourself at one time in your life.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say tAo, but in my personal spiritual journey, at this moment I need to pursue sant mat until my curiosity about sound is satisfied. Like you did.

Brad wrote: "The 3 ego-driven high priests of TCOTC who are doing their damndest to promote confusion and lack of life purpose."

--I don't think any of us "high priests" are attempting to promote confusion and life purpose. It is just that what we have said in tying to provide clarity is confusing You and undermining Your life's purpose. Others may not have been confused or had their life's purpose undermined by our comments.

"Your cyber lives here seem to be driven by the need to stroke your egos.."

--I think you were hoping to have Your ego (belief sytem) stroked and instead you got opposing views.

"thou protest too much."

--thou protest too much.

"these self appointed priests are scared to surrender to the grandest design of the universe and submit themselves to the simple duty of meditation and devotional practice."

--Perhaps it is You who is scared to face the possible unreality of your belief system. What is this grand design you speak of...surrendering to a conceptual framework of dogma that can't be proven rather than the Reality that is present now?

"it demands too much from their lives and implies they have to give up some kind of control they believe they have."

--I think it is You who have issues with control. Remarks made here are undermining Your sense of control.

"rather they make every effort to theorise anti-arguments, postulate equally unprovable theories.."

--I think what you have inadvertantly done by that statement is admit Your theories are unprovable.

"they forget that less is more. that silence is golden,"

--Where is Your golden silence?

"that those who truly know - dont have to say a word,"

--Then I guess you don't truly know.

"sacrifice is needed to make progress."

--That is only an idea, a belief that may or may not be true. What if it isn't and all that sacrifice was for naught?

"this sacrifice, dedication and focus they label as fundamentalist and criticise as pointless and naive."

--If this sacrifice turned out to be for naught then it would be fundamentalist, pointless and naive. The point is, how do you know what it will turn out to be?

"instead of looking at the largest star orbiting our planet and simply enjoying its rays, they choose to enter a dark and dusty building, travel down the stairwells into its cold bowels"

--Perhaps it is You who by confining yourself to the dark and dusty building of Sant Mat are missing the rays of the Reality that is ever-present now. Perhaps you inwardly sense that it is You who has decended the stairway to cold bowels.

"they argue that any effort made to find a staircase that travels upward, that any effort to climb the same stairs, that any belief in the star and its warmth - is wasted"

--There is no staircase to climb to Reality for it would be the Reality that is climbing. What you seek is what you are. The glasses you are trying to find are on your nose. No matter where you go, there you are!



Adam,

You stated,

"I have chosen surat shabd yoga, because I believe in the notion of merging with the sound current."

and,

"......but in my personal spiritual journey, at this moment I need to pursue sant mat until my curiosity about sound is satisfied."

---I'm not finding fault with your statements. I'm curious. What exactly, is it about the sound current that you are trying to discover or experience? What will you do with your sound experience when you are immersed in it? If you have had a sound current experience, could you describe it?

Dear Roger,
The example used in Sant Mat by Charan Singh is that of a light bulb covered by wrappings. The sound current is like the light itself, but the light bulb doesn't know its lit up, because its covered by layers. In human experience, the mind, which is almost ceaselessly producing thoughts, fills up awareness. By stilling and concentrating the mind at a particular chakra, the light bulb becomes more aware of, and ultimately engrossed in, its own light. While there is the experience of separation (I am not saying separation is a reality) there is some degree of pain--when one is engrossed in energy, and forgets oneself, there is no pain. There is lightness, joy, and then one understands that this same light is in everyone and everything and great compassion begins to emerge. I am trying to get more and more engrossed in the sound current, because I believe that there is no bottom to the ocean of bliss, and I want delve deeply into it. There is nothing to do with the sound experience....it is an experience that helps me to relax, and be, and become more loving, and feel more connected to myself and everything around me. Forgive me if I am sounding romantic right now. Why would you like me to describe a sound experience?

Adam,

Nothing wrong with sounding romantic. I'm not finding fault with your statement. Mixing a little romanticism into different processes or things is pleasurable.

Tao, Tucson, Brian, Amaranth, et. al.,

Regarding the mechanics of the sound current experience, as described in surat shabd yoga of SantMat.

--Is the sound current an audible experience? If so, does the inner ear play a role in this experience?

Inner ear-The innermost part of the ear, consisting of the cochlea, the semicircular canals, and the vestibule. Sound vibrations are transmitted from the cochlea of the inner ear to the brain by the auditory nerve.

Is there a describable experience of sound, that comes from the current? This is a technical question. I'm not trying to join up with any group. Furthermore, I am not trying to knock down any group.

Thanks for your replies,
Roger

Brian,

Please change romatic with romantic. And romaticism with romanticism.
Thanks,
Roger

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