« Believe! In witticisms about belief. | Main | I’m so proud of Oregon »

May 19, 2008

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Oh, your post this time brought tears to my eyes (a seldom event) - the whole darn thing (RSSB). My mind full of disbelief versus mind filled to the brim with desire to attain complete knowledge versus the sheer apparent randomness of events versus our predicament in an unpredictable world versus our horror and terror of death versus NOTHING. It is perhaps the ZERO that's the most horrifying and yet ... and yet ... somewhere within us one is cognisant
that our complex, analytical minds revel in dismissing certain relative "truths" with the emphasis on relative. Speaking for myself I recognise an obstinacy together with a need to have a clear mind unobstructed by wanting to know "everything"; acutely aware of one's conditioning at a certain level; a yearning for the impossibility of objectivity.
Yet somewhere within the deep core of self resides a "knower", perhaps the Joker who enjoys creating mayhem in human minds.
I plough on!
Thanks for your writings, Brian.
Elizabeth w

Thanks Brian and Elizabeth,

I empathize very much with both of your writings. Problem is, to say one is a satsangi or not a satsangi is accepting or pushing off of a concept, which is by nature limited. I more and more have the feeling that a meditation path is a path of (non)action, not a belief system. After all, saying the master is god or rejecting the master as fraud are both conceptual stances. We are not concepts, though the notion of "self-image" and "positive or negative self esteem" point to the experience of oneself as a concept with measurable quality. We are used to seeing ourselves conceptually and relating to others as such. I think your friend has a good point, Brian, that moving into realms of doubt is a loosening of a dogma, and the potential opening to more subtle types of knowledge, for lack of a better word. I think dropping all beliefs, if that could be possible, would take one much, much closer to an experience that would help us understand something...

We are self-conscious creatures, and know we will die. We, as a species, invest in stories to help us deal with the anxiety of knowing we will die. We grow attached to these stories, because to question them means to go back to staring death in the face.

I like Brian's approach. It seems Brian starts with the assumption, "there is something happening (reality)." What that is is truth. No other belief is needed. I then add: due to our disposition, especially finding that we end up telling ourselves stories about ourselves almost constantly, albeit subconsciously most of the time, we create a personal mythology that is mentally constructed and removed from the experience of what is. though it uses the experience of what is as material for the story. So the question arises, what's happening other than stories?

I fully agree with the 'satsangifriend' of Brian and with Adam.
There are stories/concepts/dogma's, one can struggle with, until the 'let go of it' comes..
There is freedom in that after some time.
Then one can choose how to live after the letting go of it.
I love to go to satsang again,because of meditating atmosphere..nothing more nothing less.

Dear Sita,

Is the 'let go of it' perhaps your 'need' for the RS concepts to be a lie?

Is your still going to satsang a symptom of you still being 'married' to RS (in contrast to 'nothing more nothing less')

Now, whereas I find these concepts inane, cultic & even insulting, you found them very funny (hihihihi) quite recently?

Or perhaps that was just a symptom of something else entirely??.....

Manjit,I don't seem to understand your letter.
Maybe I am stupid.
I like the meditational atmosphere..
Have you problems with that?
I Loved and still love my guru(Charan Singh)I have always said that I am thankful for soo many things..
But if you are only sceptic..and I mean ONLY..I am not!
I tell you what Manjit,I am not the old satsangi as I used to be and also not the sceptic as some are.

Let I say it this way, I keep what is good for me..

Hello Sita,

No, you don't appear to have understood my post.

Just to underline that fact, I have absolutely no interest or concern about you enjoying the meditational atmosphere in satsang. Neither in your expressing of that.

Neither am I a 'ONLY' a sceptic. Far, far from it in fact.

I was just pointing out the implicit irony of your comment here, in light of your recent comments over at RSS. With the merest hint of a suggestion that those comments were motivated by something other than integrity of message.

But never mind.

People sometimes don't understand eachother.
Especially on the internet.
One do not see eachother and hear the tone and see the eyes.
Sorry Manjit I seem to not understand you and also the other way round.
But it doesn't matter as long as there is respect hopefully..

Brian Sir
You kind of remind me of Ravana (Enemy of ram) or Kans (enemy of krishna) according to rasik theories & mythology of bhagvatam these souls also got liberation because they attached their mind to these avatars of ram & krishna in a negative way its like no matter how you attach your self to the path as long as you are thinking about it you are being liberated hahahaha anyways I think that since you've dropped all dogma, belief systems etc. that's exactly what santmat is & I think you are on your way only I would like to know whether do you have faith in anything? God, supreme being etc.

Aman wrote...
> You kind of remind me of Ravana (Enemy of
> ram) or Kans (enemy of krishna) according
> to rasik theories & mythology of bhagvatam

It's often useful to remember that mythologies you read in a book are one thing, and real life experience is something else. Yeah, it sounds obvious, yet so often I hear people talk about e.g. things they read in the bhagvatam as if they were real, rather than made-up stories.

When we take up the great question "What am I?" our true experience is "Don't know." All words, names, beliefs, ideas about who we are... they never feel quite right, because they're a little dishonest. It's all pretending to know something that we really don't.

(The eye can't see itself, but that's OK, since the eye's job is to see that the sky is blue and the grass is green etc etc. Likewise, the mind never understands the mind, but it can still do its job.)

The one time I was with one of those Sikh groups, I went with them to a community center where the satsang was supposed to take place. We were walking around, seeing various people going into different rooms, not sure which room was supposed to be the satsang, and which people were there for the same thing.

We encountered another group in the hall (it turns out that they were actually there for a Quaker meeting). One of our people asked them, "Are you Satsangis?" And they replied, "Uh... no... are you Friends?" And it was kind of funny, since they were talking right past each other, as if in different languages.

Stuart, I had a similar experience. I'd been asked to give a satsang in Eugene. Had never been there before. Didn't know which room in the community center they met in.

I peeked into one room. A bunch of spiritual looking people were sitting in chairs, expectantly staring at a podium. I figured, "This must be the place."

Sat down in the front row. Smiled at the man next to me. Looked down. Saw that he was holding a Bible. Looked around some more. Saw more Bibles.

Suddenly had an intuition that this wasn't the satsang of an Eastern meditation group. I muttered to the man, "Forgot something in my car" and walked out, never to return.

Yes, people are people. Back then I felt like I had left the room of a false teaching and found the room of a true teaching. Now, I don't know what is true and what is false.

Aman, there's even better news for me: I also spend time thinking critically about Jesus and Christianity, plus Mohammad and Islam, not to mention Buddha and Buddhism.

So by your theory I'm also going to be liberated by my non-attached attachment to these faiths. I guess all the creeds that I think about will have to fight it out to decide who gets to save my soul.

Cool! I like attention. Guess this shows that it's better to view many religions skeptically rather than just one, or none.

You asked if I have faith in anything. Sure: reality. What I'm unsure about is how best to know reality. It seems to me that being as open as possible to reality, in whatever way it can be known, is wisest, given the evident mystery that surrounds us (and is us).

Brian Sir
Thanks for replying & ofcourse I don't mean you being liberated just by thinking about the path as a fact, I was only thinking that if you were into rasik saints & their philosophy then yeah you would be in court with buddha, krishna etc & they'll probably fight among themselves to see who can take you to their abode :-) anyways thanks for answering my question.

Hi Brian,

Just wanted to know if you have come across discourses / books / tapes of OSHO.
I just watched some clips on utube. I love the guy (dont agree with everything he says)he's one hell of an iconoclast.
Am sending a link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBEIeRSLb8k

or else go to utube, click videos aand type in OSHO....

A lot of the videos are funny and thought provoking at the same time.

Love your postings.

keep them coming...

Hi David,

I found those vids on utube a couple of months ago, and now I watch them whenever I am feeling depressed. I have just read a little about him online and talked to a couple of people. It seems he was a very controversial "guru" due to his ambitious sex habits and his flagrant hedonism (he apparently owned 90 roles royces) and drug habits.
There is no doubt in my mind though, that he is HILARIOUS, very smart, and from my perspective, quite present, at least in most of those videos.

David, since I was living in Oregon during the Rajneesh years (before he changed his name to Osho), I find it hard to disentangle the memories of all the Rajneeshpuram weirdness from his philosophy.

Rolls Royces. Poisoning people in an attempt to influence a local election. All kinds of stuff.

He's sort of engaging. But so are a lot of other crazy people.

I'll put this as intulecktial as possebl so use kin unerstan.

Unchurched = Satan = Hell!

billybob = BRAINLESS BOZO


I really do not understand why everyone is after RSSB..
Is it that a Famous person or organization or spiritual path whatsoever has to face criticism because they are getting famous day by day and growing rocket speed?
are people jealous?
I feel like its like a company of pespi,
in which millions of bottles were delivered everyday and few by chances are stated as damaged bottles?
so are all the churchless people are to be compared as they mistakenly consumed damaged bottles and thought the culprit to be the owner of pepsi company..
well what i can say is i see many old age sick people in churchless..actually they are igonrant and are speaking things out of ignorance they are rather mindless and baseless..
some said i have been rssb follower for 30 years and yet no progress so dear if you havent seen progress its ur fault n weakness come over it..
every person study in Oxford doesnt get merit ranking..
its all ones self efforts that counts..
and onething
you people are taalking one way discussion
and yes there are many many many people who have made enough spiritual progress,but i think those people you guys either werent able to find them or meet them or have no guts to know more about them..
what i can suggest you old people over here..
not much life span of urs remained so before you all die know the truth atleast and start searching those made spiritual progress..

well..nothing more i wanted to say..
because at this point i m not sure that whether you all will understand what all i said n mentioned above..

may the one bless u ...whom u believe..may be or may not

Manish arora wrote:

"I really do not understand why everyone is after RSSB..
Is it that a Famous person or organization or spiritual path whatsoever has to face criticism because they are getting famous day by day and growing rocket speed?
are people jealous?"

--I don't think the main issue has been the growth of RS but rather the substance or lack thereof in the dogma (teachings).

"I feel like its like a company of pespi,
in which millions of bottles were delivered everyday and few by chances are stated as damaged bottles?
so are all the churchless people are to be compared as they mistakenly consumed damaged bottles and thought the culprit to be the owner of pepsi company.."

--Yes, if I understand you correctly.

"well what i can say is i see many old age sick people in churchless..actually they are igonrant and are speaking things out of ignorance they are rather mindless and baseless.."

--On what do you base that statement?

"some said i have been rssb follower for 30 years and yet no progress so dear if you havent seen progress its ur fault n weakness come over it.."

--Could not the weakness be in the RS path?

"every person study in Oxford doesnt get merit ranking.."

--But in Sant Mat "merit ranking" is supposed to be guaranteed.

"its all ones self efforts that counts.."

--you don't know the efforts of others or what has led them to their current point of view. Perhaps they see what others do not?

"and onething
you people are taalking one way discussion"

--That's natural because this is the churchless blog. Do you expect to find a bunch of true believers in Sant Mat here? For that, go to satsang and not this blog.

"and yes there are many many many people who have made enough spiritual progress"

--How do you know?

",but i think those people you guys either werent able to find them or meet them or have no guts to know more about them.."

--It is not a matter of "guts". That's a weird remark. Have you been able to find them and verify their "progress"? Please describe.

"what i can suggest you old people over here..
not much life span of urs remained so before you all die know the truth atleast and start searching those made spiritual progress.."

--Isn't that a little presumptuous?
How do you know who on this blog has or has not found "Truth"? What has proven to you that what you believe is indeed the truth? What does age have to do with anything?

"well..nothing more i wanted to say..
because at this point i m not sure that whether you all will understand what all i said n mentioned above.."

--I'm not sure you understand what has been said on this blog.

"may the one bless u ...whom u believe..may be or may not"

--Same to you.

well dear tucson i have bunches of people who made spiritual progress and i do not want to praise or spread this..
becoz truth is truth and its never need to be proved atleast in such sites called as churchless the same is so absurd though..

and abt santmat
But in Sant Mat "merit ranking" is supposed to be guaranteed.

well they do gaurantee but theres lots of things which has taken into consideration..
no one else can give u that sort of guarntee in which the efforts of others in mainly involved
and well in RSSB no one is force to follow santmat
no one is force to praise the gurus
everything is clearly mentioned that go within and find the truth
but as i see people who had been through years of practise and now state RS as dogma
these thought of theres is enuff to prove that they havent followed the path the way the has to..

and u r rite age has nothing to do..
but you people are spreading negative thoughts about a very sacred institution..

and its not your fault its the game of the MIND
Mind never accepted any kind of saint in any age...
even jesus was killed..they havent spared even jesus..who is known as god in america..
jesus was one saint..
but in India there were many saints have come n gone and faced same critics..

and people say and call Gurinder the present master of RSSB..
on what basis you call him by name its that you people were thought by your elders and parents that how to respect others
and you people have also mentioned about his lavish life style that he fly in charted plains
will for that if any other rich bastard who is a mother fuker( i m sorry but these lang i m using forcibly...)
can use charted planes for fucking any slut..
why cant a great master use it for the followers of RSSB
he doesnt go 2 picnic or meet his personal ppl in charted planes
he is just doing his duty very successfully
its we silly people form sites like churchless without knowing the real fact n the real truth.
i have enuff evidence to prove anyone here about the greatness and reality of santmat,
but anyways when you innocent people werent able to understand the master how come you will understand the disciple ...

and its all ignorance and innocence i can see in these blogs..
its good you people are opening up..its just another point of view of all urs..
which may be wrong..as well..
because only who are jealous of RSSB will support u
and who knows the reality will just laugh away,
thanks


Oh unattached being I am a yogi from many a eons
I don't come or go nor do I get erased
I relish and enjoy the un-struck Anahat Shabad
In every direction I see only a collection and carnival of me
I am in everybody and everybody is in me. I am utterly alone
I am the Siddha, I am the Samadhi
I am the one who remains silent, I am the one who speaks
The form is my own form manifesting the formless
I am the one who plays with himself
Kabir says, listen oh Sadhu, there is no desire anymore
I am floating in myself in my own little hut playing effortlessly by own desire

"........will for that if any other rich bastard who is a mother fuker( i m sorry but these lang i m using forcibly...)
can use charted planes for fucking any slut......"

---So, if I want to get a good "piece of ass" with a slut, I'm gonna need to charter a plane?
---What's a regular guy, with regular paycheck to do?

Dear Roger,

You could be "one who plays with himself...."

Robert Paul Howard

There is only one God
His name is Truth
He is the creator
Sans fear
Sans enmity
Eternal
Unborn
Self effulgent
Realized by His divine grace.


True before creation
True through all ages
True also today
says Nanak,
True He shall eternally be.


Thinking does not reach belief, if one thinks a million times
Prolonged silence and meditation does not quieten the mind
Hunger cannot be satisfied even with loads of food
At the time of death intellectual smartness also stays behind
How can then we realize the Truth and destroy fibs
Says Nanak live with His Divine Will

Robert,

LOL

Well, if I cann't afford a charter plane, then I will need to do what I need to do.

I think.....

Roger

tAo, you're interpretation of the private jet comment makes me giggle uncontrollable... that is so wrong in all the right ways.

Hey there idi-0-sync-ra-tic,

Are you like related to Idi Ameen?

I sort of recall that he liked to recite poety too... but it was while he was slaughtering and chopping up millions of his people into bloody pieces with machetes.

But then if you are a 'syncretic' type of Idi, then you must be into uhhh... the poetic uniting of differing types of genocide?

How about posting some of your own poetry, instead of relying on Kabir?

It is a simple proverb in India that when an elephant moves on the street, a large number of dogs start barking and run after it. If elephant starts caring for these dogs, it can not tread its path.

Everyone has a right to comment but not in an ugly manner. I am not a custodian of this blog but frequent here.

Dear Manish,

Do not get agitated pl. As far as Tao is conserned, I know him, he is like that only. He has abused me on many occasions. Even animals can not change their very way of speaking like only birds can chirp, only lion can roar,but humen beings can imitate anybody and every body.

Lets get down to our way of the Masters.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Welcome


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.