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April 13, 2008

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Brian:

>>>This doesn't mean that Sant Mat is wrong. Just that the RSSB teachings need to stand on their own, and not attempt to be supported by an illusory connection (or even supposed identity) with other religions.

Well, perhaps the introduction would have better reflected your own understanding if you had been its author.

As it was, someone else wrote it, and we have their understanding.

Is there a resolution, or is one needed?


I think Brian's points are very well taken.

However, as for Mysti's comments, I don't see how the particular author of the RSSB site introduction really has anything to do with the problems and issues that Brian has raised, or even with Brian's own personal "understanding" of Sant Mat as Mysti has attempted to assert.

It's simply all a matter of, as Brian said, "the RSSB teachings need to stand on their own, and not attempt to be supported by an illusory connection (or even supposed identity) with other religions". The RSSB can't have it both ways. That's dishonest and deceptive. The RSSB is trying to be all things for all people. That is misleading. And that is the point. And yet its obvious that Mysti is still trying to make excuses for the RSSB's duplicity and misrepresentation of itself. Hmmm...


tAo:

>>And yet its obvious that Mysti is still trying to make excuses for the RSSB's duplicity and misrepresentation of itself.

Duplicity and misrepresentation is in your percepetion, not mine.

All the same, I repeat the same question, what is the resolution, if one is needed?

On second thought, I would prefer if my question be ignored. I can see it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

I, too, withdraw my question.

Brian said:

>>>This doesn't mean that Sant Mat is wrong. Just that the RSSB teachings need to stand on their own, and not attempt to be supported by an illusory connection (or even supposed identity) with other religions.

This is a good point.

RSSB uses this ploy, or duplicity to make an appeal to the Western seeker. It appealed to me. I remember when I was involved in this path that I often explained this concept to my relatives and friends, who were on a religious path, so that they would understand that RSSB was a Science and not a religion.

Hi ET,

Last time we exchanged comments, we were discussing your blender and your cottage cheese mixture. Hopefully, some benifits have been observed. Any new health oriented formulations?

I do have a question, regarding your memebership in santmat RSSB.

Would you mind writing a comment, revealing what motivated your initial interest in RSSB. My beginning, began thru an Internet search. Did you learn of santmat thru a friend? It would be interesting to read what the driving force was. I'm guessing that, as the many, it was a sincere honest exercise in curiousity.

Thanks for any insights....

I think this is a great development. Also,
I have to give Beas credit in that the Guru's live off their own income.

I scanned thru the RSSB website. I found it informative. The Essays, One could think of as an internet pamplet that one would receive at a satsang. I'm guessing.

In the Philosophy section, Gurinder is described as a Spiritual teacher. No mention of a perfect competent master.

Within one of the Essays, a paragraph, I found.....

"It is only when we finally meet a saint or master that a soul can rise above this level of duality, of action and reaction, reward and punishment, and discover its true spiritual nature. It is this divine essence within us that is permanent and not subject to the law of justice. Masters have the power to awaken us to the divine spirit within, by acting as a mirror to our soul and reflecting our pure essence to ourselves in spite of the dense coverings that obscure it. They re-connect the soul to the holy Word, and explain the technique of discovering God within the body. They teach a practical method of internal prayer, or meditation, which enables the practitioner to still the mind by withdrawing the soul currents from the outside world and concentrating them instead at the eyecentre, the spiritual heart. Once the mind is absolutely focused at this point, he or she becomes conscious of God."

My question..... Who is the Saint or Master?
The above paragraph appears to describe the core of the santmat path.
The website is the website.....I'm not trying to find fault with it...

Roger,

You seem to have more than a passing interest in RSSB. If you really want to know what it is about, you are not going to find that out here. You will get criticism from posters like tAo and myself and varying attitudes from others, but none of these will be your own formed from first-hand experience of going to a satsang and interacting with followers and hearing the teachings that way. I can say don't waste your time, but that is just my opinion. Your conclusion may differ.

Not that we don't want to address your inquiries, but this can be endless when a little personal experience can be a substitute for thousands of words.

Louie,

The idea that the Guru's live off their own income is simply an ilusion and a fraud. Don't be such a sucker. Gurinder did not earn anywhere near enough money back in Spain to afford the million dollar vacation homes and jet planes and such that he enjoys now. RSSB is not going to tell you the truth.


Roger,

Fyi, those essays are not at all the same as the comprehensive pamplets that one receives at an RS satsang meeting.

Yes, Gurinder is described as a spiritual teacher, and no mention of a perfect competent master on the website... but that is simply because RS is not going to tell you that on a public internet website. The RS has long been very non-public and secretive until one becomes initiated. The "perfect master" and "god-in-human-form" BS all comes later on when you go to satsang, apply for initiation, get initiated, and afterwards. So don't be so damn naive just because they say that on their formal official website. They are not going to tell you that stuff until later.

The answer to your question... "Who is the Saint or Master?" is rather simple and obvious. I don't understand how you could even miss it. The supposed so-called Sant or Master is whomever is the current RS guru at the present time, as well as all of the preceding gurus in the past that were supposed to have been Sants as is claimed by RS in their history and dogma.

I also agree with Tucson in that you definietly seem to have a bit more than just "a passing interest in RSSB". And I also agree that if you really do want to know what Santmat and RS is all about, you are not going to find that out here, or elsewhere on the internet.

I also agree that whatever you hear from others will not be your own first-hand experience of going to a satsang and interacting with initiates and hearing the teachings 'from the horses mouth' so to speak.

And I also agree that this manner of inquiry and approach that you have can indeed be endless, when just a little direct personal experience had at an RS satsang and sangat, is much better than anything you will ever get here.


Hello Churchless friends,

I was just back from Gurinder's (babaji) Bangalore Satsang. This is what happened.

Bangalore: April 12 - 14:There was no question and answer session as expected.

Babaji spoke in English and he spoke on logic and purpose of human life. He advised us to be more logical and purposeful in approach.

There was darshan in the end and prasad was distributed. And he gave us darshan by coming in a special trollley car in between the Satsang pandal.

Besides, I felt that Babaji is updating the Sant Mat ideology if I may so call it.

What I observed was that Babaji speaks more logically in English and more emotionally in Hindi/ Punjabi.

That may be because he is addressing classes in English and masses in Hindi / Punjabi.

However, what stuck me was that Babaji is more in the enlightenment/Zen mode rather than the tradiiotnal mode.

Although he obfuscates and dithers now and then. Babaji is also against concepts and is more focussed on meditatin.

That is why he makes it sure that his followers don't hang on to his words. He wishes us to work on our meditatin instead of hanging on to concepts (and his words).

His beard is now snowwhite and he reminds us of the wise men of yore. I am seeing him after two years.

So I felt good on seeing him (although that is not an adequate expression and for a lack of better words).

At the end of the day, he made two factual errors in Satsang. One, he spoke against Brahmins stating that Brahmins gave death sentence to any lower caste who dared to study sanskrit.

The other factual error was on inner jehad. Babaji wants to obfuscate the issue of religous hatred by saying that all religions are equal and that the essence of all religions is in Sant Mat.

I was a sucker for this theory an year ago. But now I realise it is bullshit.

Brian, Tao and Tucson,

I request you to join the RSSB community in Orkut.

Click this link to join. I am there upto my regular mischiefs. You too join.

http://www.orkut.com/Community.aspx?cmm=22812645

Roger

I chose to explore satmat as a spiritual seeker, not out of curiosity.

Tucson and Tao,

Thanks for your comments.

I have an interest in santmat. However, I don't have an intense interest. I have enough interest to read here and other Internet sites. It is a hobby for me. No time table or goals of inquiry needed.

Religious/Spiritual issues are interesting to me. However, if the interest was or will become intense, I would inquire directly.

Inquiring directly, is something that I do with other hobbies that I have. Attending, meetings, events, and such, I have done for many years. These hobbies are not Religious/Spiritual.

My method or style is mine. A blog is a blog. There are advantages and disadvatages to blogging. I understand this.

I think, I can understand, that my questions directed to a specific person might make them feel uncomfortable.

What I could do is ask a question directed to everyone. Maybe this could help in reducing any possible discomfort.

Again folks......No big Deal...

Hi Roger,

I want to be perfectly clear about what I mean and what I think tAo and Tuscon mean when they recommend that you go to satsang. I am not made uncomfortable in the least by your questions. It's simply that tAo, Tuscon, myself, and many others on this site have come to our various conclusions about SM by checking it out ourselves, and based on this experience, are simply telling you that you will not know whether or not SM is something that you wish to invest in or not to invest in until you check it out. We know from having been to satsangs that simply sitting through one one-hour-long satsang you will learn more about the SM core ideas than by hanging out on this site for years. Again, I have nothing at all against your internet style, but am only trying to emphasize that it really won't take you anywhere. I can also assure you, as others have done, that you could most discretely attend a satsang meeting. You could even do so without speaking to another person there. Many satsangis just show up and leave, without saying much. Some talk to each other, but it's not like church, where there are social functions afterwards. I personally think it would be cool if you checked it out, because then you would have more to bring to the table in these discussions. Whether you do or not, I am still happy to answer questions you have.

Hi Adam,

Thanks for your comment.

I understand your message.

Like I mentioned in my above comment, I understand the process of attending the satsang to obtain first hand experience. I don't have an intense need to invest or not invest.

My slow, non goal oriented method of inquiry is my type of hobby that I like to engage in. I enjoy asking questions. This religious/spiritual hobby of mine is not that intense.

I did enjoy reading through the RSSB website. I'm not finding fault or presenting praise. My scan, was more as a neutral observer of the site.

Roger said: "I think, I can understand, that my questions directed to a specific person might make them feel uncomfortable."

--Speaking for myself, I don't mind questions directed specifically to me. However, while I have extensive experience and knowledge of RSSB teachings, I am disinclined to discuss them in detail. This is because I think much of it is misleading, deceptive, and untrue. Also, it is a simple enough matter for an interested person to obtain one of the RSSB books and take it from there. They're relatively cheap being sold on a non-profit basis.

Now, according to Deepak and several other satsangis I have been in touch with, the current master is "updating" the teachings by presenting them in a more zen-enlightenment mode and downplaying some of the conceptual aspects of the path.

I have commented on this before and won't elaborate except to say that if this, as claimed in RSSB literature, is the same true path as taught by all perfect masters throughout time, why does it need upating?

Is it that the audience is more sophisticated and requires a new approach, or does the current master perceive the "truth" differently than his predecessors? If so, whose truth is true? Both? Neither? Should satsangis throw out their books?

Despite the new approach I hear Gurinder is taking, the tone and language of the current RSSB newsletter is the same lame dogma I heard for many years until I gradually phased out quite some time ago.

Adam, Tao, and Tucson,

Thanks for your comments and suggestions.

I will experiment with asking questions that are directed to the group in general.

Don't answer, if you don't want to. I'm not judging you, if you answer, or don't answer. Your response is your response.

In addition, I will formulate my comments, such that they are not pointing to any one particular person. Hopefully, this will help.

In addition, I will work to slow down the rate of my questions.

The mistake, I sometimes make, is that I ask too many questions. I am basically sticking my nose too far into someone's business.

And my question is this: Isn't a science of the soul with no hierarchies, no rituals or ceremonies and no meat simply a high school multi media art class?

Regarding Deepak's comments about his recent thoughts and impressions of Gurinder and his Bangalore satsang (my comments are for readers in general and are not specifically directed to Deepak personally):

"Babaji ... spoke on logic and purpose of human life. He advised us to be more logical and purposeful in approach."

-- Sounds hypocritical of him, to me. If he really is a man of logic, and advises logic, then why does maintain and perpetuate these myths and illusions of sat-guru, darshan, and all the rest of the RS dog and pony show?

"There was darshan in the end ... and he gave darshan by coming in a special trolley car in between the Satsang pandal."

-- Oh how blessed. What is he doing that nonsense for? Why is he parading around or being carried around for people to look, and thus maintaining a cult of personality? But I know why really. Can anyone guess why?

"I felt that Babaji is updating the Sant Mat ideology"

-- Ideology for sure, but "updating"? What needs to be updated? I thought Sant mat was supposed to be timeless and perfect. Obviously not. Just more evidence of hypocrisy and charlantanism for the mass of gullible fools who worship a cult of personality.

"what stuck me was that Babaji is more in the enlightenment/Zen mode rather than the tradiiotnal mode."

-- "enlightenment mode"? You've got to be kidding. There is nothing enlightened or zen about playing the sant sat guru charade, and doing the dithering darshan dance.

"Babaji is also against concepts and is more focussed on meditatin."

-- No concepts? Against concepts? Why shucks, you could have fooled me.

"That is why he makes it sure that his followers don't hang on to his words."

-- And how does he do that? Followers don't hang on his words? Then what are these thousands of people doing there if they are not hanging on his words? What a load of crap! He is not doing anything to prevent people from "hanging on his words". He is doing the opposite. He has got thousands upon thousands of people listening to and attached to his every word. If he says that he is making sure that people don;t hang oin his words, then that guy is a total hypocrite and fraud. What a bag of bullshit!

"His beard is now snowwhite and he reminds us of the wise men of yore."

-- Might impreszs some fools, but it doesn't impress me in the least. As if having a white beard is somehow spiritual. How absurd. How stupid. How childish and immature. But then that's the superficial level of most of the gullible RS satsangis who flock to and around such cult figures.

"Babaji wants to obfuscate the issue of religous hatred by saying that all religions are equal and that the essence of all religions is in Sant Mat."

-- Well thats been the case for ages. Nothing new there. Just more typical phony RS 'one shoe fits all' dogma.

"I was a sucker for this ... But now I realise it is bullshit."

-- Are you sure? Earlier on you sounded like you were pretty impressed by all the pomp and circumstance, and his guru charade and phony "enlightened" rhetoric.


Edward poignantly interjected: "And my question is this: Isn't a science of the soul with no hierarchies, no rituals or ceremonies and no meat simply a high school multi media art class?"

--It is if there is a basket of grab-as-you-go condoms and safe needle-use pamphlets placed conveniently by the door.

Radha Soami everyone,

Thank you everyone for the comments and taking the time to read what others have said, whether relevant or not.

F.A.O Brian inparticular:

I am what some may say a 'spiritual seeker' or others might say I am just 'curious'. I know little in theory of RS and its teachings but hope to gain guidance from the great Babaji and go to my first Satsang this weekend.

I ask this of you Brian, you spent so long in the faith of RS and only now, when you have been ejected from your duties due to your own actions have you turned on what it teaches. I do not like to comment or judge anyone as all religions and faith's teach us that only God may judge us but, may God forgive me, it seems that your attack on this faith is down to your own selfish reasons and being disgruntled for reasons that were brought on by your own doing.

For your comments on what the RSSB website say's, would these not be better directed at the RSSB itself so that the website may be amended if needs be and not just vicious, back biting 'chitter chat' on a comment that is aimed to deminish the name of the faith to all, even those currently unbiased by this world and people like yourself.

If you are so bothered about what it say's, get it changed, dont just complain.

Nothing comes easy in this world, you have to go out and grab it with both hands, including God.

---The answer to your question... "Who is the Saint or Master?" is rather simple and obvious. I don't understand how you could even miss it. The supposed so-called Sant or Master is whomever is the current RS guru at the present time, as well as all of the preceding gurus in the past that were supposed to have been Sants as is claimed by RS in their history and dogma.

The purpose of my original comment was to generate some conversation regarding the title or description of the Guru. Within one area, he is described as a spiritual teacher, then another area, he is described as the saint , master, divine guide, et. al. I understand the master's succession process.

--I don't understand how you could even miss it.

This is the a problem with blogging....one can honesting misunderstand what another blogger is writing........missed or not missed.....

P.S.....Tao...i still luv ya......

Charlie, some clarifications on your comment.

If you'd listened to me giving satsangs over the course of a decade or more, and read my writings (such as the book, "Return to the One," which was written, but not published, under the auspices of RSSB), you'd realize that for a long time I've had a "heretical" approach to Sant Mat.

Being fired as a speaker wasn't a cause of my hereticism; it was a result. RSSB doesn't tolerate dissent or free-thinking very well. That's a fact. Like all organizations, it has an organizational mind set.

All that happened was that I "came out," so to speak, with some doubts and reservations. My inherent non-dogmatic, questioning Taoist/Buddhist approach to spirituality was made more honestly explicit.

I can tell you that lots of RSSB disciples have similar doubts and misgivings. They just don't express them. I can't tell you how many times I'd give a satsang to a large RSSB gathering and have people come up afterwards saying, "Thank you. I thought I was the only initiate who felt that way."

RSSB claims you don't have to change your religion to practice Sant Mat. But if your "religion" is that of science, or of Taoism/Buddhism, or Greek philosophy, you should keep it to yourself if you ever become a RSSB speaker or official -- because , like in Animal Farm, some religions are more equal than others in north Indian mysticism.

I don't understand your suggestion that if someone has a critique of something, he or she should try to get it changed rather than talk about it.

Huh? Are you saying that dialogue, conversation, and discussion serves no purpose? Why did you post your comment, in that case? Why didn't you just email me privately, rather than sharing your view with everyone (potentially) on the Internet?

Because, I assume, you disagreed with what I said and wanted to express your disagreement. That's great.

If you ever get initiated by Gurinder Singh, I hope you'll try to get some RSSB policies changed. Good luck. It can be done (I had a little success) but it isn't easy. One of the operative phrases in RSSB is, "This isn't a democracy."

To me, openness and honesty is valuable. To me, expressing doubts and reservations is better than keeping them locked up inside, because the goal of spirituality is oneness, isn't it? When we aren't one ourselves, having shut off a "real me" from a "false me," how is unity possible?

Sant Gurinder Singh ji Maharaj has not changed anything. The only thing he ever says is to meditate. There is no Sant Mat 2.0, the teachings will never change. Keep your vows, THAT'S IT. The vows have not changed, that's all that matters, follow your vows, thats all Sant Gurinder teaches. The master is a particle of God like you and me, it's just that he has realized this, thus retaining his original nature, a servant of the Supreme Lord. While up there with God, certain souls are commissioned to come down and bring back up some souls. Such simple things should never be confused. Whether you have faith in Sant Gurinder Singh or not, that is your destiny. OTHER THAN THAT HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO JUDGE A PERFECT MASTER? If in fact he is perfect, how the shit do you expect to be able to perceive this? You guys have some high as hell ego or something. Go to the astral region using meditation and find out urself. Perfect doesn't mean he does things perfectly it means he does whatever the lord wills him to perfectly, whether that is proper grammar or shit grammar, or telling you lies, he is perfect, and what perfection is you cannot judge for you are not perfect yourself, yet. Just because a perfect master says something thats not true, and it is a lie in all ways, does not mean he is not perfect.

Sant Mat IS the essence of all religions. Religions teach us how to reach the Lord. That is the essence. But this divine essence is not easily found in the religions because the essence is temporary, it is there only while the religions master was alive. The essence of all religions is the master that came before it. Sant Mat teaches that the essence of religion is the master that came before the religion. That master alone could give salvation to whosoever became his disciple. An example was Jesus.


Sid, is your message a parody, or meant to be serious? I can't tell.

Let's see: imperfection can be a sign of perfection. Sweet! I'm perfect!

How do you know the guru is perfect? Because he's imperfect, and makes mistakes? Apparently, from what you said.

What difference is there between the notions you expressed -- that it's impossible to tell whether the master is perfect, but you need to have faith that he is -- and every other religion based on blind faith?

What I am saying is that your perception of what the word perfect means in regards to saints should be modified a bit. There is no way you can comprehend what the word perfect means in the saying "perfect master." Wouldn't you yourself have to be a perfect master to be able to know another perfect master is perfect? Only when you yourself have reached Sach Khand can you see the perfection in your master.

The saints never say to try to see how perfect they are using physical eyes and ears. That would be blind faith, for any "Guru" can use mind tricks to look and sound perfect, but they may still not be situated at Sach Khand. What the saints actually say is: go inside and see for yourself.

Test this science for yourself. Choose one of the current sat gurus that you like the most AND have most faith in, and see for yourself through meditation.

Do so. Get initiation and have faith in the master, or else you know what happens.

Sid wrote: "Wouldn't you yourself have to be a perfect master to be able to know another perfect master is perfect? Only when you yourself have reached Sach Khand can you see the perfection in your master."

--In the meantime, how do YOU know the master is perfect and is capable of taking you to Sach Khand? You don't. So, you are operating on blind faith or religious faith that what is claimed about Gurinder is indeed true. What if it isn't? Really. What if it isn't?

"Test this science for yourself. Choose one of the current sat gurus that you like the most AND have most faith in, and see for yourself through meditation."

--What have YOU seen for yourself through meditation? Is this "science" working for you?

"Get initiation and have faith in the master, or else you know what happens."

--Why should anyone have faith in the master? Because he, or someone, says he is who he is supposed to be?


We all need initiation from a living Sat Guru if we want to reach the Supreme Lord.

What you are saying is that there is no way to know that we are getting initiation from a Sat Guru. Yet, I myself know for a fact of three Sat Gurus that are in this world currently. My faith that these three are true Param Sants is incredibly, incredibly high, and it has required 100 percent of my attention to be sincerely towards the Lord for these revelations to come to me.

How I know these things without initiation is beyond simplicity. But to me, it's in no way blind faith. I am certain. This is how boundless the grace of Anami Purush can be.

Well then, it really must be the will of the lord to create a series of situations that lead one to have full faith in the master, a very individual thing.

Otherwise, are you going to be atheist? Or you can meditate, and reach higher than the mental planes, but you will be stuck, as many have been, in the great void. If you really, really want God, and you don't believe in Sant Mat, then you would be meditating right now.

Sid, you say: "Yet, I myself know for a fact of three Sat Gurus that are in this world currently." and then you say: " My faith that these three are true Param Sants is incredibly, incredibly high,.."

Which is it..fact or faith?

Brian wrote:"If you ever get initiated by Gurinder Singh, I hope you'll try to get some RSSB policies changed. Good luck. It can be done (I had a little success) but it isn't easy. One of the operative phrases in RSSB is, "This isn't a democracy."

There isn't any need for RSSB to change policy. Did anyone note the photos in the new rssb website? There's much prosperity and huge growth going on. People are pouring in from all India for initiation. Thus, if a few Western (mostly) disciple's disagree and protest (or despair, and leave)it hardly matters at all! Ho hum. This blog hardly matters at all. Really. Please do recall that probably 98% of the sangat are either East Indian or non-resident E.Indians. Most rural Indian disciples (probably the bulk of the sangat) do not own a computer, maybe not even a book on the RSSB Faith. They do not care about policy, only darshan and salvation.

Regarding both Sid and GRNose's comments...


First, GRNose:

I definitely agree. You've made a very good point. 99.9 percent of RSSB followers are Indians. And 99.9 percent of those Indians are traditionally religious minded believers and unquestioning devotees only looking for a guru and salvation, not esoteric mysticism, transcendence, or realization. Therefore, NO one is going to change anything. For Indian satsangis, Sant Mat and RS is basically their religion. Period.

-----------------------------------------


Sid:

Sid said: "The master is a particle of God like you and me, it's just that he has realized this, thus retaining his original nature, a servant of the Supreme Lord."

-- Whoah... hold on there dude. Not so fast. Just what makes you assume and assert that "he has realized this" ? How do you know that? How could you know that? There is no outward indication of any such ralization. And what do you mean "thus retaining his original nature, a servant of the Supreme Lord" ? As if others somehow do not "retain their original nature" ? Nonsense! And "servant" of what "Supreme Lord"? You are making several big abstract assumptions here that have no basis in fact or reality. Why is that people like you think that, by just saying something, that makes it true? People like you must be really uneducated and unintelligent.

"While up there with God, certain souls are commissioned to come down and bring back up some souls."

-- Here you are offering just more of the same old abstract imaginary assumptions and ideas. IE: "up there with God", "certain souls", "come down".

"HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO JUDGE A PERFECT MASTER?"

-- Like we judge anything else - by facts and evidence, or the absence thereof. But the real question is this: How and why do YOU assume that there is any such thing as a "perfect master"? How do you know that? Anyone can judge anything based on the available evidence, which in this case, is NO evidence at all.

"If in fact he is perfect, how the shit do you expect to be able to perceive this?"

-- The same way that one perceives anything - directly. But in this case, again, there is no eveidence to perceive. However, just so you know, using words like "shit" in a public internet forum especially when defending the Radha Soami Mat, does not reflect well on RSSB or on you as an RS satsangi, if that's what you are. It actually discredits your rather lame defense of RS far more than any of the other ridiculous nonsense that you said.

"You guys have some high as hell ego or something."

-- Actually it's people like you who have the big EGOS, and all the big claims and presumptions that go along with that.

"Go to the astral region using meditation and find out urself."

-- I have in fact done so, but there is nothing there that proves anything.

"Perfect doesn't mean he does things perfectly it means he does whatever the lord wills him to perfectly"

-- Oh boy! Talk about a cop-out! Are you really so stupid as to think that such double-talk is reasonable and valid?

"he is perfect, and what perfection is you cannot judge for you are not perfect yourself, yet."

-- Now you are really out to lunch. In fact, you are about as full of shit as you could ever be. You have not proved that he is "perfect", nor have you proved that others are not yet "perfect". The truth is that perfection is the essential nature of all beings, not just some fool guru in a turban.

"Just because a perfect master says something thats not true, and it is a lie in all ways, does not mean he is not perfect."

-- Yes, of course. He is indeed... a "perfect" liar.

"Sant Mat IS the essence of all religions."

-- Then PROVE it with some obvious sunsatnce and facts. But you cannot, simply because you, like many other typical RS goons, are full of BS when it comes to the RS religious dogma.

"Religions teach us how to reach the Lord."

-- That's not all they teach. But what does that have to do with RS ? RS touts itself as a science of meditation, NOT a religion. So why are you talking about religion?

"this divine essence is not easily found in the religions because the essence is temporary, it is there only while the religions master was alive."

-- Man, you are so incredibly out to lunch. What little rock of nescience did you crawl out from under? You siad: "the essence [of religion] is temporary"??? Thats not what most religions say at all. Religion says that the truth is eternal, not temporary.

"The essence of all religions is the master that came before it."

-- No. As Gandhi said: "The essence of all religions is one. Only their approaches are different.". So the essence is NOT "the master". Yet why do you misinterpret and allow the mythology and dogma of YOUR own personal religious beliefs and bias to conclude otherwise?

"Sant Mat teaches that the essence of religion is the master that came before the religion."

-- That's NOT what religion says. And Sant mat does not say that either.

"That master alone could give salvation to whosoever became his disciple."

-- No master can give any such thing, especially not salvation. Your so-called "master" is just another human being. No one has the power to give salvation or liberation. Liberation comes when one is ripe and awakens. All so-called "masters" are nothing more than teachers and guides at best. No human has the power to liberate another human. And there is no actual salvation or liberation. There is only conscious recognition of reality.

"An example was Jesus."

-- Jesus as a savior, as a giver of salvation, is a myth.

"There is no way you can comprehend what the word perfect means in the saying "perfect master."

-- And why not? You do not know what anyone else can or can not comprehend. You can only know what YOU do or do not comprehend.

"Wouldn't you yourself have to be a perfect master to be able to know another perfect master is perfect?"

-- How do you know that others are not "perfect masters"? All you know is what you are. And by your very own admonition, how could you know what is the state of someone else, whether they are a so-called "perfect master" or not? Everything you say is self-contradicting hypocrisy. Don't you see how ridiuculous your assertions are?

"Only when you yourself have reached Sach Khand can you see the perfection in your master."

-- If you have reached "Sach Khand" then you don't need a master. But how do you know that others have not "reached" Sach Khand? You do not know that. You do not know anyting about what others have or have notn "reached". And I can tell you from direct experience that even reaching Sach Khand does not change or make anyone any different than they were or they are. Not at all. Its is not a measure of anything. The entire "perfect master" thing is a contrivance and an illusion. Everyone is perfect in their essential nature. No one is any different than anyone else, no matter what they have supposedly "reached" or not reached, attained or not attained. In reality, there is no attainment, nor is there anything to attain.

"any "Guru" can use mind tricks to look and sound perfect, but they may still not be situated at Sach Khand."

-- You have no idea what you are talking about. There is no such "situated". There is no one to be "situated" anywhere. Primordial awareness is itself the self-perfected state.

"What the saints actually say is: go inside and see for yourself."

-- I have, and there is nothing inside to "see for yourself". Everything simply is as it is.

"Test this science for yourself. Choose one of the current sat gurus that you like the most AND have most faith in, and see for yourself through meditation."

-- No one needs any "current sat guru" to meditate. And no one needs to have "faith in" any so-called "current sat guru" in order to benefit from meditation. Meditation is it's own reward. You are lost in a bunch of ignorant dogma, and are merely parroting the same.

"Get initiation and have faith in the master, or else you know what happens."

-- This is nothing more than stupid fear tactics. Many of us already have initiation, and I dare say for far longer than you, and it does not mean anything other than we have more experience than you do. But yet you tell us to "get initiation...or else you know what happens". So who the fuck are you to say anything? As far as being an expert on Sant mat and RS, you are nobody... just like all the other immature RS sycophants.

It's high time for you to practice what you preach, instead of preaching what you don't practice, and what you have not yet realized.


So you say that you are initiated? I am not initiated.

"Go to the astral region using meditation and find out urself."

-- I have in fact done so, but there is nothing there that proves anything.

Please tell me if you are initiated and by who. If you went to the astral, and you are initiated, but there was nothing there, through meditation, then tell me about that, otherwise nobody here is fessing up to have reached the astral while initiated and found nothing.

I never hear people saying that their karmas have been low enough that they have went inside, and their master was not there. It's simple to say that masters are just normal humans, but to have meditated and seen, well then I myself would like to know.

I myself am just like you, these conversations can change my belief in two seconds, I believe in destiny though.

You yourself have no proof. You have none unless you've been initiated and reached the astral daily, and theres no radiant form. In that case I have no idea, maybe I'm completely wrong.

But in my experience there is OVERWHELMING proof, factual proof, that these masters truly are not normal humans. I don't have to post all the things I've experienced, but I will admit, I am not 100 percent faithful.

As of right now, I am not old enough to get initiation by Sant Gurinder Singh, and I am still waiting on a reply from one other Sat Guru as to what his age requirements are.

It really doesn't matter how long you've been initiated. It has no meaning. I don't care if you've been initiated for 100 years. Your Karmas alone are what keep you from seeing the Radiant form of the master. If this is too hard for you to handle, well then that is the burden of your Karmas, may you continue on in peace brother, in his will.

Don't think that your words do not cause my own faith to fall down, they do, but you don't know what I've experienced in entirety, you never ever know what another person has experienced.

Though I'll admit my faith is not 100 percent, there are things that I cannot post cuz im lazy, no lies really.

GRNose said: "Thus, if a few Western (mostly) disciple's disagree and protest (or despair, and leave)it hardly matters at all! Ho hum."

--Doesn't it reflect poorly on the "perfect" master that disciples despair and leave? Or, perhaps even more poorly, that disciples wake up from the stupor of adherence to unsubstantiated dogma and leave?!!
Also, doesn't it reflect poorly on you that you feel it is a 'ho hum' matter that disciples despair and leave this supposed opportunity for salvation?

You all deny all of the gurus of the past, all the saints, that have talked about Sat Guru initiation.

You ignore the words of many. You feel that it is all lies. It is all passed down bullshit.

Initiation by a guru is not required for anything in inner meditation.

Nobody can get an inner guide by getting initiation from a guru.

Your claims are bold but there is no proof.

You have no proof, you cannot prove to the world what you preach, there is no point for you or me to be here right now posting.

In reality, even if you did meditate and nothing happened, your experiences are yours.

There is nothing you can say that can affect anybodies faith in a guru. You have your experiences, we have ours.

You cannot prove anything beyond doubt, you really know nothing. None of us know anything. Destiny is destiny.

Sid,
Stop talking to yourself and get some life. You are young. Enjoy the beautiful world. Be a nice human being first rather than thinking about what will happen after this life. This time of life wont come back and you might end up regretting wasting the best part of your life being a mental slave of phony gurus,cults and religions. Believe me once you are stuck with a cult, there is pretty much no way out. You loose by being a part of it and you still loose while getting out of it.
I guess I am talking to myself now..:):)
Cheers

Sid,

"So you say that you are initiated?"

-- Yes.

"Please tell me if you are initiated and by who."

-- Yes again. Charan Singh.

"If you went to the astral .... through meditation, then tell me about that"

-- There is nothing to tell. The "astral" is not a very big deal - it is not any great attainment. Reaching the astral has little or no value, and is nothing compared to the higher realization.

"nobody here is fessing up to have reached the astral while initiated and found nothing."

-- That's not quite true. I am quite sure that some here have no doubt experienced the astral plane, and would be willing to admit having done so.

"I never hear people saying that their karmas have been low enough that they have went inside, and their master was not there."

-- Having experience or success in meditation has nothing to do with needing to have "low karmas", nor with seeing any "master".

"It's simple to say that masters are just normal humans, but to have meditated and seen, well then I myself would like to know."

-- Al are ordinary humans, including so-called "masters". If you wish to see and know for yourself, then meditate. But meditation will not necessarily give you the knowledge that you seek.

"I myself am just like you, these conversations can change my belief in two seconds, I believe in destiny though."

-- Well thats alrright. But I'm not sure what you mean by "destiny".

"You yourself have no proof. You have none unless you've been initiated and reached the astral daily, and theres no radiant form."

-- Proof of what? I need no proof. I don't claim that the RS meditation is valid, like others do. But as for being initiated and having extensive experience in meditation and subtle "inner" planes, then yes I do have quite alot.... and most likely far beyond and more than the RSSB's current so-called "master".

"In that case I have no idea, maybe I'm completely wrong."

-- Well thats good that you have a genuinely honest and open mind. So keep it up. That quality will take you quite far.

"But in my experience there is OVERWHELMING proof, factual proof, that these masters truly are not normal humans."

-- Then if you wish to be credible, then you must necessarliy show the proof. If you cannot show the proof of your claim that someone ("these masters") is not an ordinary human being, then it cannot be accepted as fact and truth. It is merely only your opinion and your imagination. I will say that I suspect that you really do not understand what having actual proof means. It does not mean mere talk or words or opinions.

"I don't have to post all the things I've experienced, but I will admit, I am not 100 percent faithful."

-- It does not matter at all what YOU have experienced. Your own experiences do not prove anything about someone else - the supposed master or guru. Just because you have some experiences of some sort, does not validate such claims of the guru's spiritual mastery or so-called divinity. I also don't know what you mean when you say that you are "not 100 percent faithful". Faithful to what? Faith has nothing to do with proof of so-called 'spiritual mastery'.

"As of right now, I am not old enough to get initiation by Sant Gurinder Singh, and I am still waiting on a reply from one other Sat Guru as to what his age requirements are."

-- I see. Well... as someone who has gone the Way long before you and who has vast experience beyond your present comprehension, I would sincerely and forward kindly advise you to go very carefully and with awareness and deliberation. Don't just believe anything that you are told or that you read or that you hear. Most, if not all of the people that you will encounter in the sangats and satsangs are firmly entrenced in dogma and have no actual wisdom or realization, and so they cannot guide you. Trust in your own Self formost. Trust only in your own Awareness and in your own Dirsct Experience... not in books or lectures or enchanting ideas or supposed "masters".

"It really doesn't matter how long you've been initiated. It has no meaning. I don't care if you've been initiated for 100 years."

-- It does matter if you are talking about the Radha Soami Mat. But otherwise, yes, it does not matter.

"Your Karmas alone are what keep you from seeing the Radiant form of the master."

-- That is NOT true at all. That is false dogma that you have been told and believe. So-called "Karmas" have nothing to do with it. Success in meditation only has to do with having a quiet mind. And "the radiat form of the master" is just a figure of speech. The actual reality of experience in meditation is not so literal and defined.

"If this is too hard for you to handle, well then that is the burden of your Karmas"

-- Well now... it appears that you don't really have such an open mind. And you really don't know where I am at. As for "karmas", thats just another idea that you have attached yourself to. I have no such "burden of karmas". Karma simply means Action, not burdens. Karma is action. Thats all. The consequences, if any, of actions are entirely another matter, and are not fixed in stone as you seem to think. It is obvious to me that you don't understand what the nature of karma is and what it is not. My advice to you: Do not worry about karma. If you worry about karma, you will fall into a mental quagmire and lose your innate freedom.

Instead, you should focus your attention upon your essential nature which is primordial Awareness, and abdide only as that in each ever-fresh ever-present moment. Nothing else ever need be done. Everything will be accomplished naturally and without effort. Otherwise you will wander through life endlessly seeking that elusive spiritual liberation which, paradoxically, was always right there - right HERE and right NOW - and which was always already the case. Remember what I have said. Hopefully someday you will understand. You don't need to follow anyone or anything. What you really seek is always right here and now. Always.

"Don't think that your words do not cause my own faith to fall down, they do"

-- I am not trying to get your faith to fall down. I am simply directing you to see and be aware of your own essential nature, which is beyond beliefs and the sickness of effort.

"Though I'll admit my faith is not 100 percent, there are things that I cannot post cuz im lazy"

-- Your "faith" is not important. It is your attention to your nown Awareness that is important. Youdo not need to post anything. Just understand what I am telling you, what I am showing you, about where to find what you seek.

And so... "may you continue on in peace brother" as well.

But not in anyone else's "will"... other than your own will. YOUR OWN will, is the will of "the Lord". You don't need spiritual dogmas, meditations, or masters.

Simply realize your own innately self-perfected state.


I whole-heartedly agree with Sapient who said:

"You are young. Enjoy the beautiful world. Be a nice human being first rather than thinking about what will happen after this life. This time of life wont come back and you might end up regretting wasting the best part of your life being a mental slave of phony gurus,cults and religions."

And Sapient is also right in that: Once you get yourself into, or get stuck in a cult, it is difficult and may take you years to wake-up and come out.

You can meditate and pursue spititual sadhana without having to get initiated and into RS, or into any other group. Stay free and independent.

Take it fom us, always keep your mental and spiritual LIBERTY. You will then have a wonderful life and achieve great spiritually and in every other way.

YOUR OWN unique life is actually your spiritual path, the only path you need. Tha is the secret that we are passing on to you.

Cheerio

Radha Soami

F.A.O Brian

I do not disagree with or disregard your comments, I just think that there are better ways of going about it.

As to why I did not email you, please forgive me, I am new to this blogging and am still trying to work it out! lol

As for myself, my search for God and inner peace started a while ago. 8 years ago I started Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences (OBE's), not realising what this was truely about. Brian I understand that this is part of RS? Have you been to the astral plan before and dealt with good and bad spirits? After a scary experience I decided to end my projections and look more into religions but without any success. It wasn't till I was 18 when I started university that religion and those important questions on life started nagging at me.
I befriended a muslim and soon got reading about Islam and its teachings. Within 6 months I became a devoted muslim. But after a while I realised that what was being spoke about in the mosque's was more about politics and causing divides in the world than what the Qu'ran really teaches. My faith faded, so much to the point were now 6 years on I believe in one God but am not a practising muslim. A few months ago I met an RS and read a couple of books which interested me as the theory behind it is very real and believable. Is there any books that you could suggest to me that may help me on understanding and
practising RS more? Brian, If you would like to discuss anything further, please email me at:

[email protected]

Thanks

IMO, I can see some value in requiring the minimum age of 24 for initiation. Hopefully, some mental maturity has been established by 24. Otherwise, this is no big deal.

The spiritual debt, somehow associated with Karma, I find little value. I see some logic to the story. The numbers game, IMO, sounds too gimicky.

The Diet, as described and required, IMO, is going to be the toughest issue to grasp mentally and spiritually. My nutrition consists of a varity of fresh and raw fruits and vegetables, whole grain products, varity of nuts, small amounts of meat, fish, poultry and dairy products. In addition, I do jump into Taco Bell, et. al., occasionally. While at Taco Bell, I know I'm eating junk food. I don't play games with myself. My jump to the required diet would be small, however, I don't mentally, buy into it.

Leading a moral life is ok. However, like Jimmy Carter, I have lusted after a variety of women. Don't ask me why, but Jennifer Gardner turns me on. All kidding aside, this issue (moral living) makes the most common sense.

Meditation used as a practical tool, to experience something beyond the mind and body is the core of all that is. The communication that there will be NO garrantees of direct experience and no disscusions with others, is not good. This secrecy breaks down much interest for me.

The path doesn't make any requirements as to Ones lifestyle, is ok. So if I decide to have several wives, I'm glad to know that this ok. My wives would be gathered for spiritual reasons only, mind you. True, this is a silly example. However, where are the lines ever drawn on this separate issue?

Again, my personal opinions, NO big Deal....
What others do is their business. I would never talk someone into thinking like I do.

So Tao, you think I am not open minded. Well I'll tell you this much, this conversation is what I am currently hanging on. Thats what I mean by destiny.

Don't think that I don't sometimes think that these Gurus could be the opposite of good. Gigantic flashes of doubt come, sometimes months long.

But from what your experience, you say that there is no inner master to be seen within. Well, again that is your experience, I cannot in any way be sure of your experiences.

But It would be highly helpful if you could tell me how you meditate.

This is a quote from http://vclass.mtsac.edu:930/phil/journey.htm I will show which I hope you can give an opinion on based on your experience: eventually the mediator glimpses keen points of light, much like stars filling up a black midnight sky. The student is advised to focus his/her attention on the largest and brightest of these "stars" (Kirpal Singh, 1974, 1975, 1976), which with repeated concentration will burst revealing a radiance similar to that of a sun (Sawan Singh, 1970, 1974). When this light explodes, a brilliance comparable to a full moon will pull one's attention even further within. Out of that light, according to the masters (Julian P. Johnson, 1953), known as Asht-dal-kanwal ("Eight petal lotus"), the resplendent form of one's guru will appear. This marks the half-way point in the disciple's ascent, since from here on one is guided to the upper regions by the radiant form of the master (Sawan Singh, 1974). Hence it is by comparison an easier progression for the soul than the withdrawal of the mind current from the body.

Then the site goes on to the rest of the journey. What do you think about it?

You must realize how powerful the Sant Mat books teachings dogma, the whole Sant Mat universe of information is very very very attractive and full of knowledge and such things that are extremely hard to give up. Your words though are desired, for it only adds to the whole drama of spiritual elevation. You must understand that things are multiplied when you have generations of family who were initiated, because then the stories and rumors of people seeing radiant forms, hearing the shabd, and talking of success stories of Sant Mat come into play, so there is always a clinging.

The clinging remains until either the path works or the person leaves the path, and is scarred or is not.

Sid,

(Sawan Singh 1970, 1974)

Is this referencing something Sawan wrote?
I think he passed on in the late 1940s or early 50s. Is this a new Sawan of 1970 and 1974?

Again....no big deal....

Singh, Sawan. Discourses on Sant Mat (1970)

Singh, Sawan. Spiritual Gems (1974)

Those two are at the end of the page.

Roger,

The Diet is not difficult. I have found over the course of my life that it is easy to change my diet. The hard part is to change your ideas that adopting a different diet is somehow difficult... that you somehow can't enjoy food without eating meat etc. I have found that as long as you eat something, anything, then your stomach does not care whether it fruit or veges or grains or fish or meat. It dosen't care at all. The difficulty is all in your mind, in your habits, in your mental desire to eat one thing over another. Thats all it is. I have found that I can eat beautiful luscious delicious fresh fruit, veges, etc etc... or I can eat just plain old tasteless flavorless rice and beans, and it does matter or not change a thing. I still feel the same and my stomach is happy either way. Same thing applies with meat etc or no meat etc. Its all just a head trip. Whatever you eat, you stomach will still be satisfied. It's your mind that has all the hang-ups.

As for lusting after women, I don't think you should give it any thought. Its your life, and you should enjoy it. The idea that lust is somehow bad, is oppressive and wrong. Life and attraction to the opposite sex is natural and good. Don't buy into the RS BS about sex and morality.

And yes, the secrecy thing is bad, and it is simply a cult contol issue.

Next, you are mistaken, the path does make requirements as to ones lifestyle. It does not allow one to have several wives, and RS does not say that it is "ok". Thats where the line is drawn on this issue. In fact RS does not allow sex before marriage either... and I don't buy that either. That is simply religious based repression. I believe that people should not enter into marriages blindly without getting to know each other in every way possible. I don't beleive that sex outside marriage is bad. This restiction is just another contol trip to make RS look upstanding and moral. But its actually very repressive. It's really stupid and out of touch with reality. Its just another one of RS's unenlightened aspects masquerading as spirituality. So no, you are mistake if you think that RS allows polygamy. I say, its YOUR life, so do whatever the hell you want. Don't listen to other people. If you can find several women who will all consent to it, then good for you.


Tao,

Thanks for the reply,

I was teasing, regarding the polygamy example. I'm not into that.

Lusting for woman, another teasing example.
While I have lusted, its no big deal, not what I do daily.

The diet issue, true it is in the mind. I just choose to not restrict small amounts of the listed food catagories in my diet. I have nothing against anyone that chooses to follow the required diet.

What others choose to do, is their business.

Tao,

One other note on the diet,

I use my mind to study the nutritional benefit of different food groups. As well as the benefit of combinations of different food groups digested together. I use my mind, hopefully, in making choices that protect my stomach, small/large intestine, etc.

Again, I understand the negatives regarding meat, poultry, etc. from the nutritional point.

However, the need to join anything isn't great enough for me to accept the required diet.

Sid,

I think sometimes you are open minded, but in other ways and at other times, you buy into and defend dogma as if it is the truth, when its convienent for you to do so according to your beliefs.

Also, I never said or implied that you should think that "these Gurus" are the "opposite of good", meaning that they are bad. I don't say they are bad, but only that they are not honest, because they are not who they allow their followers to think and believe they are. I don't say they are bad. I say they are not enlightened, not god-realized, not sat-gurus, not special and divine incarnations, and so on. They are just ordinary unelightened people who have been appointed as leaders of a particular spiritual cult. And that, is very very different from being genuine enlightened sat-gurus as they allow people to believe they are. So therefore, to put it buntly, they are frauds. They are merely playing a role without having the substance of awakened spiritual wisdom and enlightenment to back it up. They pretend to be "masters", and they fool thousands of very trusting but ignorant gullible people like yourself, but they are NOT true masters at all. They are just figure-heads. And they are NOT being honest about that with their tens or hundreds of thousands of disciples. And THAT is fraudluent. Therefore, RS is just another phony religious cult whose only agenda is to perpetuate the existence of the organization and its leader and its hierarchy. Don't be sucker for that. Be your own independent self. Follow your own path. Do your own thing. Be your own guru. Live your own life.

Also, I do not say that there is no "inner master to be seen within". I only say that the so-called "inner master" is your own innate Awareness. But I don't call it "inner" or "master". It's also not my "experiences". It is not a mere tranistory experience. It is a fundamental awakened realization. That's not an "experience". That is our essential nature or Awareness. But at this point kin your spiritual development, I don't think you are able to understand what I am saying.

You said: "Well, again that is your experience, I cannot in any way be sure of your experiences."

-- You are again missing the point. You don't have to be sure of my experiences, or anyone's experiences. I am not asking you to. That is not at all what you need. You simply need to trust in your own self, your own innate Awareness. It has nothing at all to do with anyone else's "experiences".

"But It would be highly helpful if you could tell me how you meditate."

-- I have already told you, but at this point you are unable to comprehend the simplicity of what I am saying. You are looking forsomeone and something to corroborate or validate or elaborate upon your ideas and beliefs that you have acquired from Sant Mat. I don't meditate that way. And until you put aside those notions and ideas and beliefs, you cannot understand what I have told you. Thats why I say you are not open. You are filtering ever thing I say through your acquired Sant Mat concepts and beliefs. You will never understand what I am saying until you put all that aside.

"This is a quote from ... I will show which I hope you can give an opinion on based on your experience. ... Then the site goes on to the rest of the journey. What do you think about it?"

-- I am not interested in discussing such quotes regarding Sant Mat meditation experiences derived from David Lane's website. None of that kind of description of inner experiences which you have quoted & posted is relevent or useful. It's just standard old RS meditation cosmology. It is totally useless and irrelevant in terms of actual awakening and realization in primordial Awareness. So I am not going to address any of that kind of nonsense. There is nothing there that is in any way meaningful or helpful.

"You must realize how powerful the Sant Mat books teachings dogma, the whole Sant Mat universe of information is very very very attractive and full of knowledge and such things that are extremely hard to give up."

-- I don't agree. It may seem that way to you, but that is only because you are immature and you are enchanted and facinated by such abstract mystic cosmology and theology. Thats the problem. You are mistaking a contrived Map for the thing itself. None of that stuff will ever help you, In fact, it will actually mislead and distract you into a life-time of endless seeking and effort and samsara based upon elaborate cosmological illusions and dogma posing as mysticism.

"Your words though are desired, for it only adds to the whole drama of spiritual elevation."

-- Spiritual drama is NOT what you need at all. Reality is what you need. Recognition, understanding, and insight is what you need.

"things are multiplied when you have generations of family who were initiated, because then the stories and rumors of people seeing radiant forms, hearing the shabd, and talking ... stories of Sant Mat come into play..."

-- I understand. That is all the religion aspect of Sant Mat. But none of that will help you. Forget about what other people say. Forget about what you family says They are not enlighted. They have spent their lives and are still not awakened. They are still seeking after religious mysticism. They will mislead you if you allow that and listen to them. That's my firm opinion. If you are smart, then you will ignore all of that family religious stuff, and simply depend upon your own direct experience. Just go your own unique way. Don't follow the blind. Don't follow believers. Don't follow other peoples stories. Create you own story. Live your own life. Discover your own truth. Don't follow or cling to other people. Everything you need is in your own Awareness.


Roger,

I did not say that you should follow the RS diet, or any diet. I say eat whatver you want to eat. It does not matter to me. I am not advising you to follow or adopt the RS diet. I don't follow it, so why whould I tell you to to? I am not suggesting that you do any particular diet.

Yes, I have found that for me, some things are more nutritius than others, but that is not the issue. I don't follow or hold to any diet other than what I choose in the moment. I impose no rigid limitations upon myself. And I don't subscribe to the Santmat beliefs about diet.

I have been a vegetarian for 40 years, and a vegan and a macrobiotic and a raw-food & live-juicer mostly for 20 years, but I can still eat anything except for beef and lamb. I don't eat cows or sheep. Thast my own preference. No mad-cow disease (bovine spongiform encephalytis) for me.

And my diet choices are not about the notion of "karma" either. For myself is all about health and sustenance and being in the flow. I am free and I remain free, and I don't allow theories and ideas such as "karma" to limit me. I just do whatever feels and is right for me. I am not a slave or a prisoner of any doctine.

So I hope that clarifies my position.


I will reply to you soon, Tao.

[Note from Brian, the blogger: it's been pointed out to me that the article cited below is by John Range. In some other comments the commenter has given the impression that he wrote articles on the Categorical Analysis web site, so I wanted to be clear about who the author is.]

Sid,

One more thing...

You said:

"You must realize how powerful the Sant Mat books teachings dogma, the whole Sant Mat universe of information is very very very attractive and full of knowledge and such things that are extremely hard to give up."

I respond:

"I don't agree. It may seem that way to you, but that is only because you are enchanted and facinated by such abstract mystic cosmology and theology. That's the problem. You are mistaking and confusing an artificially contrived description or "map" as being "the thing itself".

-- That is exactly why the Sant mat descriptions and concepts of inner planes and inner experiences are NOT helpful nor useful. And not only that, but they actually become an expectation, a filter, a limit, and therfore an impediment. Sant mat uses this stuff to attract and to enchant seekers, but the over-all effect of it is detrimental to real insight and genuine direct experience or realization.

So to help you understand what I mean, the following academic paper of mine will explain more specifically and elaborately what I mean about the "map", and the "the thing itself", the terrain.

However, considering your current level of spiritual developement, comprehension and knowledge, you probably will not be able to make very much use of it. But still, it may help you a little if you study it a bit, so here it is anyway:

"The Categorical Analytic Meaning of Truth":

http://www.categoricalanalysis.com/category/pdf/categorical-analytic_meaning_of_truth.pdf


Main Index:

http://www.categoricalanalysis.com


I couldn't understand your paper, but I bookmarked it in case I want to understand it later.
What are your opinions of meditation? What is there past the mind? is there spirit soul? is there God?

I really want your opinions, you seem so sure of yourself. What can you tell me about these masters who are frauds, how are they doing it? how can they do it?

Do you believe in karma in reincarnation what do you think happens after death?

Do you believe in the astral plane and the causal plane?

Basically, I'm not yet smart enough to understand your paper, but maybe you can say something more...

And I still really would like to hear about your scientific approach to Sant Mat Tao.

You still have not told me what happened. You claim that you tried out Sant Mat and it didn't work.

Well can you give me the story of your life? You were initiated by Charan Singh, and from that day onwards you attempted to see his radiant form.

Maybe not? maybe you went on your own way.

You went on your own way, and now what have you attained? You are not the body.

You are not the body, you are awareness are you not? are you not a soul? well then have you attained the ability to withdraw your consciousness from your 5 senses? what have you done in your life, what have you disproved regarding Sant Mat.
Thank You.

Roger wrote: "Again, I understand the negatives regarding meat, poultry, etc. from the nutritional point."

--What do you think are the nutritional negatives of meat, poultry, etc.?

********************************************

Sid,

It is ironic that you have posted part of David Lane's writings on Sant Mat in support of your faith. Initially, he was an ardent devotee of Charan Singh and did his doctoral thesis on the Radha Soami movement and philosophy. No one, to my knowledge, has studied this path and its various branches, origins, personalities, politics, and history to a greater depth. Maybe some Indian has done similar work, but in the west, Lane is prominent. He eventually became, as a result of his research, one of Sant Mat's biggest online detractors and wrote "The Secret History of Sant Mat" which was not flattering to the movement to say the least. Actually, all this is an old story and I think he is getting weary of the controversy. I knew him from several satsangs and later corresponded with him via email years ago. I remember his last words to me in response to one of my emails regarding RS were, "I don't know how we ever bought into this crap."

I would also like to commend tAo's analysis of RS and his advice to you. You are fortunate to be hearing this at a relatively early stage of your involvement with RS. I think his perspective should give you pause and an opportunity to explore other philosophical avenues and approaches to Reality. It may be that you will decide RS is for you, but I feel your present view is based on an immature perspective and a certain naivite'. I don't mean this unkindly. Take the time to study and let your "spiritual" view gain some maturity and seasoning.

Sid,

You asked:

"What are your opinions of meditation?"

-- I have no opinions about meditation. I don't do, or need to do, sant mat meditation.

"What is there past the mind? is there spirit soul? is there God?"

-- There is only awareness. spirit soul and God only exist as concepts, ideas in the mind. Where is this "spirit soul"? Where is this "God"? Try to find them. You cannot. They are only thoughts, ideas, words.

"What can you tell me about these masters who are frauds, how are they doing it? how can they do it?"

-- I've already told you. They are playing the role of "master", guru. So how are they "doing" what? What is your point?

"Do you believe in karma in reincarnation what do you think happens after death?"

-- No. I already told you that. And nothing happens after death.

"Do you believe in the astral plane and the causal plane?"

-- No. I already told you. I don't believe in anything, in any of these ideas.

"I'm not yet smart enough to understand your paper, but maybe you can say something more."

-- The paper is self-explanatory. Everything I want to say about it, is all there.

"I still really would like to hear about your scientific approach to Sant Mat"

-- I have no "scientific approach" to sant mat. I have no "approach" at all. I don't follow sant mat. I don't believe in sant mat. I don't practice sant mat. And I have already made all this quite clear before.

"You still have not told me what happened. You claim that you tried out Sant Mat and it didn't work."

-- No, I did not claim that at all. I did not claim that "it didn't work". I simply received initiation about 30 years ago. I engaged in the meditation for some years. And then I dropped sant and RS mat, or rather, it just simply dropped away. It was clear that it was unnecessary for me to pursue any of it. Thats all.

"Well can you give me the story of your life?"

-- No, there is no way that I am going to give you the story of my life. That is far too deep and vast for me to ever possibly relate here (it would take an entire book to do so anyway), and I generally don't discuss my personal history and past. I have already told you what little that I care to say about it.

"You were initiated by Charan Singh, and from that day onwards you attempted to see his radiant form."

-- No, I did not "attempt" to see anything. I did the meditation exactly as it is taught. I simply meditated upon shabda.

"You went on your own way, and now what have you attained? You are not the body."

-- No. There is nothing to "attain". I am awareness, and also, I is the body. And "I" is also merely a thought.

"you are awareness are you not?"

-- Yes.

"are you not a soul?"

-- No. "a soul" is just a concept.

"well then have you attained the ability to withdraw your consciousness from your 5 senses?"

-- Yes, but I do not need to do that. Why should I? It is not necessary to "withrraw consciousness". This is just another belief that you have acquired. Awareness is prior.

"what have you done in your life"

-- You must be joking. That's a rather ridiculous question.... think about it.

"what have you disproved regarding Sant Mat."

-- I don't need to "disprove" anything. Sant mat does an excellent job of doing that all by itself. And btw, if you had read Lane, you would already know that. Snat mat itself has proven nothing, so therfore I do not need to disprove anything. And also, I never actually said or claimed that I had "disproved" sant mat. Sant mat simply dropped away without any effort on my part.

In conclusion, it now appears that you are playing a bit of a little game here. So it's time you just take what I have said and realy think about it, and leave it at that. I am not here to answer your endless questions over and over. And I don't think anyone is interested in doing that either. This is Brian's site, and I would like to keep my comments generally more related to his offerings. You can also go to the radhasoamistudies Yahoo forum if you wish to get other answers and opinions.


Great job, Tao. Educating potential cultists and deconditioning them. I wish u had decondtioned me 17 years ago when I was just getting into RSSB.

Tucson,

Thanks for the question,
--What do you think are the nutritional negatives of meat, poultry, etc.?

I was refering to a diet heavy in beef, poultry, etc. I think you know what I'm saying. The small amount that is in my eatings, I don't think the negatives are that high. I'm not on any special diet. True, I occasionally eat at a fast food restuarant, however, those occasions are not apart of any nutrition plan.

Tao,

--I did not say that you should follow the RS diet, or any diet.

I never thought you were directing me to any diet. I was trying to explain my thoughts on how I approach nutrition. In
addition, I was being honest, in stating, that I occasionally eat at a fast food restaurant. Not as part of my eating habits, but due to an unpredicted circumstance.


I hope you can answer some more questions, I am not playing a game anymore.

So what you are saying is that we are just awareness.

But isn't death the same thing as withdrawing awareness from this body? That is why I ask you what happens when YOU withdraw your awareness from your body.

According to you, after death nothing happens. So you are saying that after withdrawing attention or awareness from the body, nothing happens there also. But what about the light at the end of the tunnel, near death experiences?

I myself am going to try this, but, Gurinder Singh says not to meditate without a guide. And I would say that you would say that this is another trick of his to get people initiated, and it very much seems like it.

So you believe that we all should just be in the moment, and not think about anything but current events, and...

and when I asked about meditation I didn't ask about Sant Mat meditation, I was asking about Meditation in general.

So what created all this, Tao? There is no God, well then what created this universe? What are your theories about the unexplainable?

So you are saying you don't believe in Chakras ?

You must believe in astral projection.

When we die or meditate and exit the human body, we have the astral body.

This is astral projection.

This is not even Sant Mat. There are astral projectors are there not?

why withdraw from the body. Why do it. Why? so we can see whats there. And many claim that there is something. I myself have gotten to the point in meditation where there are flashes of light that grow, but I've stopped meditating cuz Gurinder Singh says we need a guide.

But you seem so against meditating, against dying while living, meaning withdrawing attention or "awareness" to the light that flashes in the eye center.

Why not do it and astral project like so many people do? Will we not then see what lies after death once we are looking at our physical body and we are in our astral body? Maybe you haven't withdrawn your awareness from your physical body yet, you haven't gotten that ability.

I myself talk to and listen to the discourses of Michael Martin, who claims to be the "western sat guru."

here is his site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michaelmartinwesternsatguru/

I'm posting this for no reason except that this man is a living influence of Sant Mat on me, so its not just the books. Though you will say that he himself is brainwashed and crazy.

You will say that he is evil or insane to think that he is a Sat Guru. Well, I myself do not know. I cannot, for possibilities are endless.

anything is possible, you just don't know.

But you claim that you do know, you say that you are awareness only, no soul nothing, and you seem to be quite confident about things.

Tao,

Could I get John E. Range's e-mail address?

Thanks,

Roger

Charlie, the RSSB books are the best guide to Sant Mat. Otherwise, I've shared some of my favorite spiritual books on some blog posts (check the "books" category). For example:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2006/11/recommended_spi.html

Naturally I could also recommend my own book, "Return to the One." This was written, but not published, under RSSB auspices.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1588321002/002-7340762-6703236

Plotinus' Greek philosophy is virtually identical with a "pure" form of mysticism, RSSB or otherwise, but omits extraneous ritualistic and religious stuff. If you'd like a Western non-religious perspective on mysticism, you'd find my book interesting.

Sid,

I already told you about as much as I care to. Your questions are basically all going along lines that are related to a few core false presumptions and premises that you have acquired mostly from sant mat and some from elsewhere. There are no end to such questions. I have given you the very best answer that anyone could give you, but you have continued to ignore it, to miss it, or misunderstand it.

So I am not going to continue to give you answers to more and more questions that are all based in duality and imaginary mental constructs. There is just no end to it. You are not getting what I am saying. None of these questions you posit are going to resolve anything or help you. They are all predicated upon seeking and the search.

What are you trying to find? What are you seeking? Do you even know what you are seeking, and why? What is it that you think you lack? What are you trying to attain? Where are you trying to go? And why?

The questions that you should be asking, are simple questions you should put directly to yourself. A little self-inquiry will help you far greater than asking all these endless nonsense questions to guys like me about rubbish such as astral planes, chakras, inner experiences, and the like.

I have absolutely no interest in discussing such nonsense. And you are wasting YOUR time as well. The stuff you are asking and seeking is all part of the problem.

What is it that you really want? What is your real goal? Do you even know?

And you absolutely do NOT need a "guide" in order to meditate. Just meditate. It's that simple. If you feel that you desire a little guidance, there is much free non-dogmatic meditation guidance out there which has no strings attached. And you do not need anyone else's approval. If Gurinder has told you that you must have a guide, then he is absolutely full of shit. You do NOT need anyone else's approval so as just to be able to meditate.

Meditation is very easy. In fact, if you wish to meditate, then it should be more or less effortless. Just do it. Just sit and meditate. Don't wait for someone else's approval. That's ABSURD ! You really just need to grow up and take the wheel and be the Captain of your own life. RSSB is just an organization. You do not need to belong to, or be controlled by, any organization or cult or guru in order to meditate.

Having said that, I will (for the last time) briefly respond to the following questions.


"isn't death the same thing as withdrawing awareness from this body?"

-- No. Death is when the body and the brain are no longer functioning, totally dead.

"you are saying that after withdrawing attention or awareness from the body, nothing happens there also."

-- The idea of something "happening" is only in consciousness.

"what about the light at the end of the tunnel, near death experiences?"

-- Just more phenomena.

"I am going to try this, but, Gurinder Singh says not to meditate without a guide."

-- Just ignore that, don't listen to people who tell you that you cannot or that you should not meditate.

"you would say that this is another trick of his to get people initiated"

-- Perhaps, but that is not the point. Meditation is natural and can be done by anyone. No initiation or approval is needed. Saying that you need a guide is the same as him telling you that you need him as a guru. It is not true.

"So you believe that we all should just be in the moment, and not think about anything but current events..."

-- No. You already are always in the moment. And I also did not say to only think about current events. No thinking is needed. Thoughts come and go. But it doesn't matter. Just remain in awareness. Don't try to do anything. Life will go on as it does. Don't try to control it. Just remain as awareness.

"So what created all this?"

-- Created? Nothing created anything. Life is just happening spontaneoulsy.... in Awareness.

"There is no God, well then what created this universe?"

-- The "universe" is simply in your awareness. Everything happens spontaneously. The universe, totality... is Awareness.

"What are your theories about the unexplainable?"

-- I have no theories. And I have no idea what you mean by "the unexplainable".

"So you are saying you don't believe in Chakras ?"

-- Chakras is a concept which refers to energy centers. It is merely a subjective perception. I don't "believe" or not believe, in anything.

"You must believe in astral projection."

-- I don't "believe" in these concepts. Astral projection is just another dualistic concept of the mind and the imagination. Just as dreams are, the same.

"When we die or meditate and exit the human body, we have the astral body. This is astral projection."

-- Another imaginary dualistic concept. If you are not yet dead, then how do you know this? More importantly WHO ARE YOU? WHAT ARE YOU? Are you 'inside' the body that you can supposedly "exit" it? ... You have all these ideas and presumptions that basically have nothing at all to do with reality.

"There are astral projectors are there not?"

-- Some would have you believe that. But that is all imagination... like dreams.

"why withdraw from the body? so we can see whats there."

-- You are not IN the body, so how could you "withdraw from (out of) the body"? And there is nothing 'out there' to see.

"And many claim that there is something."

-- Many "claim" all sorts of things, but that doesn't make any of it real. You should forget about such "claims". Go find your own truth.

"I myself have gotten to the point in meditation where there are flashes of light that grow, but I've stopped meditating cuz Gurinder Singh says we need a guide."

-- Then I have to say that you are a fool. Gurinder Singh is no one to tell you anything. Trust in yourself. Trust in your own existence and awareness. Trust in your own meditation. Don't listen to others people's dogma. Gurinder Singh does not give a shit about you. You don't need frauds like him. You have everything you will ever need right within yourself. Trust in yourself, in your own essential nature. Don't listen to poseurs like Gurinder.

"But you seem so against meditating, against dying while living, meaning withdrawing attention or "awareness" to the light that flashes in the eye center."

-- I am not opposed to meditation at all. I just do not need or practice the sant mat meditation. Every moment of awarenbess and existence is my meditation. There is no "dying while living". You are alive. You are life. Embrace life. Forget about dying. That is sick. Dying will take care of itself. Attend to life, to awareness, here and now. Forget about tomorrow or after death. If you continue as you are doing, you are going to waste your precious life. Just BE the Awareness that you ARE.

"Why not do it and astral project like so many people do?"

-- That is imagination. No one is doing anything. You are buying into a fabtasy, a fiction. You are wasting your time in metaphysical nonsense. This is the last time I am going to tell you. You have not heard or understood a single thing that I have said. After this, there will be no more answers forthcoming.

"Will we not then see what lies after death once we are looking at our physical body and we are in our astral body?"

-- No. Because you have not yet actually died. Astral projection is subtle phenomena, like dreaming. Death is much deeper than all that. Nothing you can do will prepare you for death other than to become aware of Awareness, and thus abide in the self-perfected state of primordial awareness, the instant presence.

"Maybe you haven't withdrawn your awareness from your physical body yet, you haven't gotten that ability."

-- I have experience and knowledge beyond your comprehension, BUT.... You just have no idea what you are saying. Because regardless of what I have told you or what tell you now, you still have not undertood. Awareness is not IN the physcal body. There is no "withdrawing" of awareness. Awareness simply IS. The body is something perceived in awareness.

"I myself talk to and listen to the discourses of Michael Martin, who claims to be the "western sat guru."

-- Yes, myself and others know exactly who he is. However, you are making an enormous mistake listening to such an individual. This person is mentally disturbed - schozophrenic, psychotic, and delusional. He is not a "western sat guru". He is a fraud and a danger to anyone who falls into his web of insanity, deception, and delusion. This is no joke. You are a complet fool if you give a person such as that any of your attention. If you continue to do so, then you deserve to be mislead. The guy is mentally ill and dangerous, and the RSSB would also advise you to stay far far away from him as well. He is a total fraud and delusional schizophrenic.

"I'm posting this for no reason except that this man is a living influence of Sant Mat on me, so its not just the books."

-- Again, you are making an enormously foolish mistake. I advise you to have nothing to do with him, and accept no "influence" from him. Anthing he has told you should be forgotten. He does not represent Sant Mat or Radha Soami, ot their teachings. I cannot emphasize this enough. If you have any intelligence or common sense, you will literally run away from any further association with such a person. You will gain no help or benefit there with Sant Mat. In fact, you will become mislead.

NOW I SEE, and NOW I KNOW what your problem kis and why you have been posting the nonsense that you have been posting and asking about. It is your association with Martin that is responsible for this, in part. So now I see why you are so screwed up, why you have so much misunderstanding. Therfore, I have now warned you, so I have nothing more to say. Until you do yourself a big favor and get away from his sickness and his garbage, you are not worth wasting my time with.

"Though you will say that he himself is brainwashed and crazy."

-- He is not necessarily brain-washed, but YOU are definitely brain-washed... but he is, without a doubt, definitely CRAZY.

"You will say that he is evil or insane to think that he is a Sat Guru."

-- No not evil, but yes "insane" indeed. He is schizophrenic and extremely delusional, not to mention being a total fraud.

"Well, I myself do not know. I cannot, for possibilities are endless. anything is possible, you just don't know."

-- You do not know because you are spiritually immature and have no discriminative wisdom. But I do know, and with utmost certainty. And many others besides my self know as well. Martin is both extremely delusional and a complete fraud.

"But you claim that you do know, you say that you are awareness only, no soul nothing, and you seem to be quite confident about things."

-- I just know my self. I know that I AM Awareness. "soul" is just a concept, an idea in your mind. And confidence comes from direct experience, insight, and realization, not from dogma. Your problem is that you listen to dogma, and to people who merely parrot dogma but have no direct-experience/realization.

Don't ask me any more questions - I am NOT going to answer them... because you have ignored most if not all of what I have said thus far, and because you have been grossly mislead and influenced by the nonsense of other insane delusional people. And most importantly, I have already shown you a very clear direction toward reality.


Sid,

Stay away...far away from Michael Martin. He used to post on RS Studies a few years ago and the man is really sick...big time sick and excessively delusional.

He will lead anyone who follows him into the depths of ignorance.

Make a firm resolve today, right now, to stay the hell away from this man.

Great Tao, Great.

I think anybody into RSSB will certainly get out if they are in touch with u.

Bob then please help me. Please tell me why he is sick.

If you can't even tell me why he is sick, why he is big time sick, and why he is excessively delusional, then I still can't trust you. Please help me.

If you say that he leads anyone who follows him into the depths of ignorance, then PLEASE PLEASE TELL ME why you believe this. Save me if you can, tell me.

I am going to look more into the criticisms, but I need you also.

You could be right, I myself just don't know.

Sid,

If you could go back and read Michael Martin's numerous posts and interactions he had with various individuals on RS Studies, his mental imbalance would (I hope) be obvious to you.

IMO, Michael Martin is full of himself and an obvious fraud. Plus, he is delusional and sick. He has been encouraged by many people to seek help with his condition.

If you are interested in RS, I would advise you to read the Beas books and also writings from Faqir Chand for another viewpoint on the teachings.

But, above all, stay away from Michael Martin. If you don't trust me or what I am saying, it's your loss not mine.

Bob

Got an email from someone who wanted me to post this as a comment (a few typos have been corrected):
--------------
"Hi Brian;
I was on your page but did not know how to write as I am new to internet so am sending you my views.

Radhasoami is a destructive sect its not a religion or anything of the sort. For me its a money laundering institution where all the crooks and sinners have joined the sect.

The master is a very shrewd person. He gives his followers what they want to hear. He will never go against the doings of his followers and anyone who gives him questions which can commit or create doubts is mocked or humiliated at by the master himself hence his popularity.

I have even heard that they preach that the master is a agent of the lord hence his followers can do what ever harm they can to others but at the moment of before death if they just think of him they will be accessed a direct short cut to paradise and all their doings will be pardoned.

Hope you put this on the page
thanks
Prakash"

Sid,

I am beginning to think that you are not sincere, or you are just really naive. You foolishly listen to, trust, and believe somone who is very widely known to be mentally disturbed - a seriously delusional schizophrenic - as well as being a cronic liar, poseur, a total fraud.... and yet oddly, when you are confronted with these indisputable facts, you hide behind flimsy doubt and say that you can't "trust" those of us among the many who know the truth about this sick individual. Then you say you want "help". I find that to be very suspicious and disingenuous, and just downright stupid and blind. Anyone (like yourself) who gives any more than a very brief glance and attention to Martin has got some serious problems of their own. Any idiot can see that that guy is delusional and mentally disturbed. This is a widely know fact. Everything that guy says and claims is totally contrary to RS doctrine and teachings. And for what its worth, even the RSSB itself considers him to be a sick individual and a complete fraud. Among many various delusions that are held and claimed by Martin, these are just a few:

* He claims he is the Anami Purusha descended into in human form, but he has yet to find even one person who will accept or believe this due to his obvious sciziphrentic mental illness.

* He claims that numerous medieval and post-medieval personages such as Shakespeare and so on, were all Sant Mat Shadba Gurus and to have secret knowledge of this, and that he is a re-incarnation of one of them, and yet he has absolutey no actual evidence whatsoever to support any of these claims.

* He claims to be in contact with, or in control of, Space Aliens, and that he visits with them in their UFOs or in other dimensions as their Sant Sat Guru.

* He claims that some very young adolescent guy (just like yourself) from Texas that he knows personally is the re-incarntaion of Shakespeare and is now going to be or is the next big Super Sant-Mat Sat-Guru or Word Avatar. And yet the whole issue of his apparent involvement with this young boy has a rather distinct odor of homosexual pedophilia and dangerous psychosis.

There is much more, but I am not going to bother with going into it any further. Sid, you can go dig it up for yourself if you are so damn interested in that sick SOB Martin.

Sid wrote:

"please help me. Please tell me why he is sick. If you can't even tell me why he is sick, ... and why he is excessively delusional, then I still can't trust you. Please help me."

-- You HAVE just been told. But I don't believe you anymore. You have been told the truth, but say you "can't trust"... yet you have blindy and naively trusted a mentally sick and delusional and rather dangerous individual like Martin. So there is something about your story that just does not make sense or ring true. If you were really sincere and you had any common sense at all, you would accept the facts, take our advice, and immediately severe all ties and association with that sicko. If you looked you would see that no one comes to his groups or buys any of his crazy shit, except for one or two young naive and ignorant fools such as yourself. He paosts 99 percent of al the posts, and even under deiifernt IDs to make th illusion that other people are visiting and commenting in his groups. But it's all a fraud. He is the one who is posting almost everything under different names. So Sid is the only gullible fool there besides Martin. If you don't listen to reason and facts and get way from Martin immediately, then you deserve whatever unfortunate sick shit happens to you.

"If you say that he leads anyone who follows him into the depths of ignorance, then ... why you believe this. Save me if you can"

-- I already told you why above.

"I am going to look more into the criticisms, but..."

-- But what? Either you wake up and smell the stinking rotten bullshit, or you continue wallowing in the sick and dangerous web of a known delusional schizophrenic psycho case, or even worse. You are either going to be smart, or you are going to remain stupid and blind. Which is it going to be?

"I myself just don't know."

-- You mean you DIDN"T know... But you DO KNOW NOW, so you have no more excuses. Don't keep trying to play your phony little game of "help me" with us. I for one don't buy it anymore. You have already been helped, and helped quite alot as a matter of fact. It's all up to you now.


Lets end this crap. Don't worry about me I form my own opinions.

You all seem very scared of nothing. You all should be spiritual entrepreneurs, brave as hell.

You are awareness, and that can never be killed by anything, you are immortal. You are so safe, if you are a truth seeker. Never give up. You want the true home, Well then get your awareness on those subtle planes of light and sound, just do it. Go see for yourself how many places your awareness can travel, you will be amazed, I bet. I myself don't even meditate, But I know for a fact that our awareness can, in this life, travel to things other than what we see in this physical universe.

It's really your inheritance. It's wherever you put your awareness, you can do that. Putting your awareness on God though, that first requires a master to purify you and help you reach such high heights first.

These are all just my opinions, I don't know why anybody should comment on this.

why are you guys so harsh. I am just a seeker of truth. There is no rules when looking for truth. It's a scientific thing. I need to test things out.

tAo:
You mean you DIDN"T know... But you DO KNOW NOW, so you have no more excuses. Don't keep trying to play your phony little game of "help me" with us. I for one don't buy it anymore. You have already been helped, and helped quite alot as a matter of fact. It's all up to you now.

I don't know anything until I know the truth. thats why i am a seeker of the truth.

I'm sorry if you think ive wasted your time with my spiritual search.

I really, lol, am sincere I was not playing any games, I really do get scared sometimes, but now I'm fine.

Sid,

A. You're an idiot.

B. You're playing games.

C. No one is "scared". You are just a blind fool.

D. Go jump in front of a fast moving train and see if if you can "never be killed". Put-up or shut-up.

E. Wanting "the true home" is all your idea, not mine.

F. You just should go "get your awareness on those subtle planes of light and sound" if that's what you believe and you want. Lets see you do it.

G. And "I bet" that you will achieve nothing and waste a large part of your miserable life trying.

H. And "I know for a fact", that contrary to your dimwitted douche-brain, Awareness never "travels" anywhere.

I. There is no "God", there is no "master", there is no need to "purify" anything, and there is no reaching any so-called "high heights".

J. And "I don't know why anybody" would be so foolish and so idiotic as to follow a psychotically delusional schizophrenicas MM, or a ridiculous phony sant-guru and his guru-cult dogma like GS, as you do.

K. And last but not least, "K" stands for KRAZY KOOK.... which is exactly what you are.


Sid, You are not a "a seeker of the truth" if you follow and believe delusional insane frauds like MM. Besides, you are just another dumb sychophant to Gurinder and the RSSB.


Sid,

One final comment. There is a long history of the master-student relationship although in some traditions the master is not seen so much an all-powerful savior, as in Sant Mat, but rather as an experienced guide. There is a profound difference between the two conceptual types although they both are called "master".

Once there was a student standing on the bank of a river. His master was on the opposite bank.

The student says, "Master, how do I get to the other side?"

The master says, "You ARE on the other side!"

Save this and notice how the meaning changes over the years.


A. Sid, you're not an idiot... because idiots cannot help themselves, but you can if you realy wanted to.

B. You're not playing games... you really don't know what the hell you are doing.

C. The only person in this forum that is "scared" is YOU, because you are scared to simply face the facts and admit the truth.

D. Don't jump in front of a fast moving train, because you will definitely get "killed" and then be quite dead, and thus you won't be able to continue on in your sant mat metaphysical fantasies and guru-cult beliefs.

E. If you want "the true home", then it is right where you always are.

F. When you finally "get your awareness on those subtle planes of light and sound" then do come back and tell us what those experiences achieved for you in the long run.

G. I still "bet" that you waste alot of time and effort trying, only to find that none of it was ever necessary or productive.

H. I also "know for a fact" (considering all the presumptions and beliefs you hold) that instant presence of awareness is not something that you are very familiar with.

I. "God", "masters", and "high heights" are nothing more than manifestations of ignorance and duality.

J. I really "don't know why anybody" would be so stupid as to follow a known psychotic delusional schizophrenic as is that fellow MM. However, if you realy feel that becoming a devotee to some cult leader like GS, and thinking and doing only as he tells you, then maybe you shoud take your place among all the rest of the santly suckers.

K. Well... I'll let you figure this one out.


alright, fine, put words in my mouth, I was not scared I did this all for fun. There you win your little game. I bid farewell.

Oh I thought it said you said that I was not scared sorry.

Yeah I really don't know anything. I'm not like you Einsteins sorry.

Though If you wanted to know, All it requires is 2 hours of meditation a day, It's not going to ruin my life. I have a life full of great things anyways, family friends and so on. But If I learn that my awareness can shift to higher planes that are created before this one, well then I'll be quite happy. Chances are the master won't let me tell you about the experiences if I get them, whichever master would take me there.

Am I ready to accept the truth? No not till I find it.

Sid,
You seems like another delusional satsangi or a conditioned member of satsangi family.

On April 18, 2008 at 08:18 AM, you wrote:
"I myself have gotten to the point in meditation where there are flashes of light that grow, but I've stopped meditating cuz Gurinder Singh says we need a guide. "

Then on April 19, 2008 at 02:57 PM, you wrote:
"I myself don't even meditate, But I know for a fact that our awareness can, in this life, travel to things other than what we see in this physical universe."

:):) So do you meditate or not? or are these all stories you heard while growing up? Anyway honesty is one of the vows of your future cult. I guess, the vow didn't specifically say that you have to be honest on the web also:)

Wishing you good luck in your life. Sid sounds like a Indian name. Just a little advice for you: Usually the marriages are traditionally arranged in India. Please try to marry a delusional or conditioned girl from satsangi family only, to enjoy the bliss of ignorance otherwise you will end up mentally abusing another life. I know many of such mentally abused wives.


Deepak,
I was wondering why did you go to Bangalore to attend satsang? Was it like a pull or more like a withdrawal symptom?

If I will believe so strongly that RSSB is a cult, I might not go there to increase their attendance. Just curious? Why?

No im not lying common why would I lie. I just have a lot of faith in certain things. I dont meditate, so I guess you could call it blind faith, but to me there is 90 percent possibility.

Heh, you call me delusional. I am a scientist. I shall try this science, just as many of you did. Let me do it too guys. I know you think that I should follow you, but I myself want to try things.

I like meditation, but there are demons and stuff out there, so I need a guide. That is why Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji has said this.

Sid,

You have found what appears to be a raisin cookie. Gurus would like you to believe that it is very delicious.

Folks here are simply suggesting that you be careful, what you eat.

That is not a raisin cookie that you found Sid. It is a pile of shit with flies on it. It is not necessarily harmless, it could make you very sick.

Think about it.

Yes, but I know for a fact, I need a guide.

Factually, If I want to withdraw my awareness from my body, I shouldn't do it without a guide with me. Otherwise I could end up in hell or something.

I would like to assure all people here that I am very careful. I myself highly fear going to hell now. I feel that if i find the wrong Master he will take me to the pits of hell with him. But that doesn't mean that I should give up trying to find a Master. I just need to be careful and allow God to make things clear for me.

Faith in God is a good thing, that I think we should never give up. I am no fool. If substantial proof came that their is no God, well then thats different. But nobody here on this thing has the authority to put their awareness anywhere they want, I think only a master has that ability, but I myself don't know anything, cannot say I do for I don't. I believe destiny will take me where I deserve to go.

Sid,

You are in hell right now. Your own thoughts centered around various dogmatic concepts are creating a living hell for you.

Dude, just relax and let your own inner self or spirit guide you. And, whatever you do, do not give up your spiritual sovereignty for anyone.

Bob

ya know you are insulting me by saying that I'm in hell.

I mean, hell would be a lot worse, I am so, SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO great full I'm not in hell, like many people are.

Jesus, if I were you, and I didn't have dogmatic beliefs, I'd start getting them. Hell isn't the place to be my friend. Keep your soul safe from that, IMO.

Dogmatic beliefs don't bind, they free you, It's my experience, for when the dogma is coming from God, well then those words are the instructions on how to live a lot better than many sinners do (we are all sinners, born that way, except for saints, IMO). They free your spirit. Yes your spirit is not free. Yes your spirit is locked up in your body. Yes your spirit is only aware of the five senses and it is forced to be swayed by Satan because certain people don't believe in God, so they think they are free, so they are swayed by Satan. I myself am very very great full for millions of things, I am for now only 18 I shall just become a doctor for now no mysticism for a while, that is what my guru has told me. All of it on hold, I have a lot of work to do. Of course I'm a sinner, we all are, but some sinners don't recognize the words of God I would say. They are afraid of Dogma, they fear that it is a control tactic, when really it is there to purify you, THATS ALL. It's there so you can clear your mind, and some day be fit for God realization. It's a beautiful thing. No limits, its limitless, really. Every man to his own opinion.

To say that Dogma is this and dogma is that, well that itself is binding. Let dogma be what it is to each individual. For some it is controlling, for they don't understand it. For others it is a key to the infinite.

Yo lemme show u all an insane thing, I found it not too long ago, but don't worry I'm not so stagnant ne more I put all this stuff on hold for a while.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/188/story_18811_1.html

This mofo WENT TO HELL! shiiiiit dude he actually went there, he was like daaamn.

after reading the description, I want to play Doom III again, shits tight.

IMO the reason why people go to hell is because they are not aware of God's Kingdom. We are currently in a pit of darkness, a part of creation that is created with an intent to have nothing very interesting or exciting, and it also confines spirits in it to the extent that they cannot bring their awareness to other parts of creation that are more subtle, but they are trapped in the human body, so they feel that THIS is their true home.

When this becomes your true home, you want to make yourself as comfortable as possible, regardless of other peoples interests. In that sense, people become greedy, lusty, and other things.

In this way, our spiritual morals go down, and so eventually we end up with very, very bad ideals and such, so we become rock solid evil beings, who don't mind hurting others at all, and actually hate God in ignorance. I am talking about the demons in the above mentioned link. Those demons hated the man in the prison cell, a lot. They hated God too, but it is all their IGNORANCE. they have fallen because they were ignorant of the TRUE home.

This is all my opinion as to be the truth, though I am only 1000 percent sure. Until I start this mysticism stuff again, I will not have the chance to check out higher planes myself. Until then, I bid farewell.

I'm sorry for all the bad language, I myself cannot believe some of the things I've wrote. And also I've wrote many other bad things here.

Sid,

First of all, Sant mat is not a science. There is no science to it at all. It is all predicted upon belief. Go learn what science actually means, instead of lying by pretending to be a "scientist".

Second, you are a liar because first you did say that you meditated and had experiences, but now you say that you don't meditate. Then you actually admitted that this has all been a game for you. Then you said you are a scientist, but its cear that you have no understanding of what science means. And then you admitted that its just faith (not science) Therefore, since you change your story often and as it suits you, you no longer have any credibiity here.

Third, the only "demons and stuff" are in your own head. Frankly, you're a confused mess. No one here is trying to stop you from meditating. But don't come here telling people that having faith in a bunch of stupid nonsense beliefs are actually a science.

You say you "need a guide". Wel then go find a genuinely competant guide. Gurinder is not any sort of competant guide. He is not a "guide" at all. He is merely just an appointed figurehead of an organization, not a man of spiritual wisdom. And even if want him to guide you, he doesn't have time any to talk to little people like you. He is about the worst choice of a spiritual guide that you could ever pick. But there is no dobt in my mind that you are "in hell or something" because the road to hell is paved with good (but gullible) intentions.

You said: "I feel that if i find the wrong Master he will take me to the pits of hell with him."

-- Well unfortunately for you, you have found the wrong master. In fact, you have found NO master at all, but merely a charlatan, an imposter, a fraud.

So you definitely should "be careful", as you say. But "Faith in God" is an illusion. If the something is the truth, then no "faith" is necessary. Reality is sufficient.

You say that you are "no fool". You say that "if substantial proof came that their is no God, well then thats different". But there is no proof that there IS God to begin with.

Then you say: "nobody here on this thing has the authority to put their awareness anywhere they want, I think only a master has that ability".

-- Where do you get that wrong idea? I for one have the ability to put my awareness anywhere I wish. And I AM a real master (not a fake one like your Gurinder) - I am a master of myself... the only mastery there can be.

And "destiny" will take you whereever YOU CHOOSE to go. It's all in YOUR hands alone, not in some phony RS master's hands.

You said: "if I were you, and I didn't have dogmatic beliefs, I'd start getting them."

-- You really don't understand what we are talking about here, do you? You are really ignorant and confused. But thats not so bad, as long as you listened to those who are wise... but unfortunately so far, you aren't. And you're "soul" is already in hell... you just don't know it yet.

Why do I say that? Simply because YOU say: "Dogmatic beliefs don't bind, they free you". -- Unfortunately that would be rather funny, if it wasn't so pathetic stupid and ignorant.

You said: "when the dogma is coming from God" ... "we are all sinners, born that way, except for saints, IMO"

-- Are you mentally retarded or what? Go get an education you idiot. Dogma doesn't come from God, dogma comes from the mind of man. And no one is "born a sinner". All infant children are pure. You are a sad sad moron if you believe that ridiculous religious garbage.

Sid said: "Yes your spirit is not free. Yes your spirit is locked up in your body. Yes your spirit is only aware of the five senses and it is forced to be swayed by Satan"

-- Now the truth comes out. You are on;y speaking for yourself, from your own ignorance. You cannot speak for anyone except yourself. Because: My spirit is free, my spirit is NOT "locked up" in my body, and my spirit is aware of much much more than merely the five senses... and there is NO "Satan" except in YOUR own foolish mind.

You said: "because certain people don't believe in God, so they think they are free"

-- Being free does not merely come from "think(ing) they are free". You are the one who is thinking this. Freedom is something innate, intrinsic. It is does not come merely from thinking, or believeing, or not believing. You obviousy don't knopw what the hell you are talking about. In other words, you are obviousy FULL OF SHIT.

"I am for now only 18 I shall just become a doctor for now ... that is what my guru has told me. All of it on hold, I have a lot of work to do."

-- Oh yeah... like become a pharmaceutical-drug pushing doctor so that you can make ots of dirty money to give to your fake guru. I know all about your kind.

"I'm a sinner, we all are"

-- There you go again - speaking for others, when youn have no right to do so.

Dogma is dogma. Dogma can NEVER ever "purify you" or "clear your mind". Dogma can never be "a key to the infinite". Dogma is itself the problem, not the solution. Only Truth can purify you and cleanse you of your ignorance, your dogma, and your illusions. And you have absolutey no idea about what "God realization" is. None at all.

Sid wrote: "This mofo ... shiiiiit dude ... he was like daaamn ... shits tight."

-- This is not proper language for an RS satsangi or a seeker of Sant Mat. You should be ashamed of yourself. Go ask you master what he thinks about your use of this kind of degraded and foul language.

Sid wrote: "they are not aware of God's Kingdom. We are currently in a pit of darkness" ... "but they are trapped in the human body, so they feel that THIS is their true home" ... "people become greedy, lusty, and other things" ... "they were ignorant of the TRUE home."

-- You simply DO NOT KNOW what other people are aware of, or not aware of. So stop acting as if you do. You don't know what other people think or know or understand.

"Until I start this mysticism stuff again, I will not have the chance to check out higher planes myself."

-- Then don't talk about things which you have no experience, and which you know nothing about.

Lastly... Gurinder S. Dhillon is NOT a Maharaja, so don't call him "Maharaj". He is just an ordinary Indian guy. India does not have kings any longer. And he is not even a formal Hindu Sannyasi, a Swami. I this know because I am one. So cut all the fake phony bullshit. Gurinder is beither an actual King nor a Sannyasi, so he has no right to be given the title of "Maharaj".

You are obviously just another young stupid arrogant little punk who thinks he is smarter than his wiser and more experienced elders. But life has a way of teaching you a lesson the hard way Sid. Sooner or later you'll find out what a fool you were.


Dear Sid,

I wish you well. But I surely am glad that I am long beyond being eighteen any more. Good "luck."

Robert Paul Howard

Boy Sid,

You sure are getting a lot of attention!

Ok, you're 18 years old with a lot yet to learn. That's cool - we're all learning and IMO this is what makes life very interesting.

What I suggest you do is cool things down for a while. Just relax a bit or take a stroll in Nature and renew your self.

Don't be in a hurry to find any answers because there aren't many answers to begin with - believe me.

It's all the dogmas and concepts created by human beings that complicates this whole thing.

So just "be" for a spell and allow yourself to feel. Take a walk and feel the earth beneath your feet. Contrary to what you may have been taught, it's OK to "be" in your body. It's grounding and healthy.

You may discover a magical world right in front of your nose.

Bob

tAo, all I'm saying is that I haven't got a chance to try Sant Mat out yet.

What do you mean by learn the hard way? Sant Mat is just a way of life. Everyone has desires. I myself desire to know "what is out there." Yes it is scary, for "out there" means the unknown.

I want to know what's out there, and Sant Mat claims to be a way of life that can lead you to be able to find out.

All you have to do is give up unhealthy things, like alcohol ciggs and drugs. Also you need to try to have good morals and be a good person. Trying to be a good person means you help others. You help them when they are in need. This, in Sant Mat, will ideally form into love. Being a good person means loving everyone. So basically, the way of life called Sant Mat is that, we shall love all, we shall try to keep our minds and bodies healthy, and we shall do our duty towards society and family, meaning make an honest living, and live comfortably with the world. Oh and also 2.4 or something hours of meditation a day. Whatever comes out of the Sant Mat meditational practice, comes. It doesn't matter what comes, for Sant Mat teaches not to expect anything, just do it. What do you lose from meditating everyday in the morning? It seems that you gain a calm good mind.

If other Satsangis seem to not follow the Sant Mat teachings correctly, that is just them. But some do do them correctly I would guess, and maybe do get what they want, but thats just them.

So basically, Sant Mat is no different from just trying to be a selfless person who cares for others as well as there self. Thats it. You claim that Sant Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj "is not any sort of competent guide." You claim that "He is not a "guide" at all." You claim that Sant Gurinder Singh Ji is "not a man of spiritual wisdom."

Well I really don't know how you attained this wisdom. Maybe you are positive about these statements? Well then you are but I still am not. I am not saying that I am smarter than anyone. My friend, I am not better than you. I am a unknowing kid like you were when you started this path. I just have a desire to see what is "out there." I am new to this world, I need to learn hard lessons if I have to. We all do. We all learn hard lessons even when our elders tell us not to.

What if there was a family in oh lets say India, who had a young man in his early 20s who wanted to start his own family in America, but his elder brother kept saying that it is not a good Idea. What if his elder brother said that many people had to learn the hard way, that it's not a good idea to try to move to America to start a family, for whatever reasons. "You are a fool if you go to America, Learn from your elders, or else you will learn the hard way."

Well the man doesn't listen. He goes to America, gets an education, and he makes it. He enjoys all the comforts of a good education, creates wealth for himself his wife and his kids, and also has plenty of money to spare for his family in India. All because he was an entrepreneur. He took the advice of the brother seriously, but he himself had his own experiences and opinions, and he had good intentions for all, and it worked.

In my opinion, tAo, you are my elder brother. I shall take you seriously, why shouldn't I. But I also want to learn hard lessons, no matter how hard it may be. I don't want to be afraid of hard lessons, thats just me.


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