Can awareness be aware of nothing?

My wife and I are in Maui. We've overcome a lot of struggles to get here, as documented in "From snow to sunshine with snafus."

For example, our first class upgrades didn't get us much of a vegetarian meal on Hawaiian Airlines. The Buddha was right: life is suffering.

I like to keep things simple on Maui. Today we sat in some shade on the beach until the mid-day sun drove us into the ocean -- Laurel to snorkel, me to swim back and forth across Napili Bay.

When to lie on the sand; when to go in the water. Of such Big Questions a vacation should be made of.

It's also another good time to work on my Wu. Which involves a query of more cosmic proportions than our beach dilemma. Namely, can awareness be aware of nothing?

Intuitively, I doubt it. But as I so often say on this blog, what do I know?

My Wu Project, or anybody's, necessarily hits a major roadblock if the answer is "No." Seeking the root of whatever lies at the bottom (or top, or middle) Of It All, one is left with something within consciousness – a duality of (1) something and (2) consciousness of that thing.

I brought with me a new book, "Consciousness is All." I figured, correctly, that it'd blend nicely with the mellow buzz of my cup of Kona coffee in the morning, and more generally, with the whole laid back Maui vibe.

The author, Peter Dziuban, has an engaging style. I'm much attracted to what seems to be a complete lack of quotations in his 296 pages. He just says what he thinks, with no corroboration from holy books, gurus, saints, or seers.

After reading just a few chapters I can tell that a central thought regards the reality of pure awareness.

Awareness truly is. For this to be clear, start with pure Awareness, pure Consciousness only – entirely distinct from the body and everything else you seem to be aware of. One who is alert sees that pure Awareness, all by Itself, alone, never changes or goes away.

Hmmm. I don't know about that, though maybe I'm not alert enough to see it. Sure, for every moment of my 59+ years I've been aware (which Dziuban says is synonymous with being conscious).

I've also been aware of something for each of those moments – except when I was unconscious. Then I wasn't aware of anything, including awareness.

I like the notion of pure awareness, of pure consciousness. It just sounds so…pure. And simple. But I can't imagine what it would be like.

Neither, says my skeptical soul, do many (if not all) of the people who talk about it. Again, though, I could be wrong. It just seems to me that pure awareness is like pure existence: a concept.

How empty can awareness or existence be, and still be something that we can be aware of or know as existent? I find it difficult to imagine being aware only of awareness, or of existing solely as existence.

For one thing, it's deeply creepy. Like being dead, yet not quite. Totally alone. A nothing knowing only its nothingness.

But, hey, I'm just 21 pages into Dziuban's book. Maybe things will clear up with more Kona coffee-aided reading. And perhaps the beauty of Maui is what's making me wonder…

Can there be awareness without stuff to be aware of?

Can there be existence without stuff that exists?

Comments

[Sid]

All I read is "can awareness be aware of nothing?"

IMO, right now, our awareness cannot be aware of nothing. I feel that as of now, our spirit bodies awareness is jacked into the mind and physical planes. So this is what we currently have the ability to be aware of, IMO: Physical objects that are animate and inanimate with our physical eyes, light and other such things with our physical eyes, and then when meditate and withdraw our awareness from the five senses, I feel that at that time our awareness is on mental things. That is when we are in the mental planes. I feel that a Sat Guru can, when God decides, come to us in the astral through meditation, and eventually take our awareness out of the mind planes, which are of lower quality, and take our awareness to higher and higher things as the master takes us, and he after some higher regions takes us to our true home, Sach Khand, where all that God wants you to be aware of out of his love exists, with very little limitations. Then, by more time, eventually our master takes up up and up, to the point of having our attention on the Lord himself and being able to be with him, whatever he may be like (we know that it's beyond our wildest imaginations). After that we have a chance to have our awareness on true NOTHINGness. This is what Sant Mat is IMO. It's a beautiful thing.

[Sid]

The spirit body, IMO, exists in the True home region, the 5th one.

[tAo]

...nothing more than the same old dualistic sant mat dogma.

[Sita]

Awareness is something to experience,it is fun, beauty,it's Love it's emotion,it is complete stillness,it's subtleness..
It is inside one's own ''self''
One has to undergo the awareness.

It is all here now.

Why wait for here after to be in peace?

[Roger]

What again is Pure Awareness? Whats wrong with a simple definition? What ever that definition would be, would just be a definition. At least there would be a starting point for some interesting conversation.

[tucson]

Sid needs a defintion of 'dogma' which is a body of beliefs put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds or evidence to support it.

In the case of Sant Mat dogma there are NO grounds or evidence to support it...none except heresay and books. Admit it, Sid.

I have found that following a spiritual path has no particular relevance to 'understanding' which can occur at any time under any circumstance. There's a thin veil, a trick of perception that is a result of our habits and conditioning which obscures understanding.

A spiritual path is based on the presumption of an individual that needs to go through a variety of disciplines and correct behaviors in order to purify and get rid of the 'I' or ego, and then achieve reunion with God.

The fundamental point that is missed is that the seeker, at every stage of this quest, is already what he/she is seeking. There is no way to make the seeker any more what they already are. It is a simple tweak of perception, of looking in the right direction, which is no direction at all, to see this: to see you are just a phantom, a dreamed character in a play you are playing a role in. There is no individual. No separate soul. No ego to overcome.

There are no particular qualifications for perceiving this because Consciousness is perfectly present in all circumstances and has no need for special diets, disciplines or gurus.

Consciousness is always present HERE whether one is engaged in some mundane activity or experiencing a grand vison of the creation in some exotic inner region. It is the same consciousness/awareness wherever it appears to be.

When this is seen, the game of the spiritual quest appears silly, like a dog chasing it's tail. However, there is nothing wrong with playing that game. It is your role in the play. Carry on, have fun, but none of it leads to what you already are whether you know it or not. Can an eye see itself?

What you already are is the unborn and thus undying Presence that is prior to all phenomena and thought. It can't be conceived or circumscribed in any way because in doing so it would be making an object out of itself. This is how the One becomes two and the illusion of individuality and duality begins.

The One is playing a game of hide and seek with itself. All paths lead to nowhere because there is nowhere to go. No dogma required. That's when the trouble begins.

No matter where you go, here you are.

I repeat:

A student is standing on the river bank.

His teacher is standing on the opposite bank.

He says, "Teacher, how do I get to the other side?

The teacher says, "You ARE on the other side!" ;)

[Roger]

Tucson,

Another great post. Thanks for the write.

[tAo]

Nice one there mi compadre del Tucson !!!

(...and ditto to Roger's comment.)

[tAo]

Roger,

Awareness is just awareness. You know exactly what awareness is.

You are "aware" of these words, aren't you?

You are aware of your computer screen, aren't you?

You are aware that you are reading this sentence right NOW, aren't you?

Well then, your awareness... is your awareness.

There is no "pure" or impure awareness. Just awareness.

What actualy IS "awareness"? ... Well THAT IS the perrenial question.

But definitions are just more words. And words, are only words... words are not awareness.

Only awareness is awareness.

[Sid]

We have awareness right now. Right now I am aware of the computer screen and my hands and my thoughts.

When I close my eyes, I am aware of colors, thoughts and the color black mostly.

When we spiritually advance, we get the chance to put our awareness on the inner master through meditation. His amazing form is easy for us to put our awareness on. He then has total control of your awareness, which is a pretty scary concept I must say.

Then, his form takes us up through creation, at his mercy. At the highest level our master takes us, depending on his own level ,we may eventually have a chance for awareness of nothing, but as of right now, we cannot be aware of nothing.

IMO, this is all true. For, IMO, we would be fools to think that we at this time have the ability to put our awareness on nothing.

Our awareness is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS on something.

Most of the time, it is on the objects and things of this world. That is because our awareness is usually jacked into the five senses and receiving information through the retina. So all five senses is what we are usually aware of in different combinations.

When we sleep, our awareness is on memories, images of the past, and other mind related colors and sounds. Somewhere around the throat and naval chakras.

When do you remember your awareness was on nothing? Our awareness is ALWAYS on some color some form some thought, SOMETHING.

When we meditate, we focus our awareness on one thing, instead of it being on many things.

We focus on the inner manifestations of light at the eye center, and forget about the world. Then, as Sant Mat goes on to say, we meet the inner master after the Light has grown and exploded, or something like that.

So yes, our awareness is trapped to be able to only see hear and experience things of our mind and of this phenomenal world.

EVEN A YOGI cannot put his awareness past the great void above the 4th region. After we take our awareness out of the causal, we are basically a naked spirit, but I don't know exactly what the 4th region is like I'll look into it more some day. But, there is a great void of darkness there onwards, so the masters form will take us through this unimaginably dark manifestation into more higher levels of God's creation. Most without a master, yogis, will think that there is nothing more above the void.

Anybody can do this if they repent, and love the lord, and wish to reach the highest, the Lord himself. This is all my opinion. I tried to prove it to you, by saying that our awareness is constantly on SOMETHING. Either thoughts or physical objects we see with our eyes.

Other than that, everything is just mind we can be aware of. Maybe some grace from the lord we may be aware of, maybe some real love, but the highest grace and love of the lord is when one of the spirit souls above the void come down and pick us up out of their PURE UNRELENTING mercy to pull us outta maya. Good luck.

[Sid]

The ability to be aware of nothing is at the very center of creation, After we Meet the Lord we may. But right now, there is always some color some words some forms some sounds something that we are aware of.

The master is the Shabd, the shabd is a great thing to have our awareness attached to, the holy spirit the holy ghost. But nobody can get a Sat Guru or know of his true existence until they have become true seekers, otherwise it's just going to take X number of lives to eventually have faith in a Sat Guru and meet his inner form.

Tao, you say "There is no "pure" or impure awareness. Just awareness."

IMO, pure awareness is when our awareness has reached a part of creation where there is nothing to be aware of. No colors no beautiful forms or other spirits, just pure nothing that is, what Sant Mat calls, the highest abode, the incalculable, It's nothing, but its really better than what I explain, you have yet to experience it, But this is all just my opinion.

[elizabeth w]

Awareness to me is a state of consciousness within consciousness and yet not. I say this as there is no other way to explain. In a state of pure awareness it seems there is no feeing or knowledge of contingency. It is blank : it is simply being, no, not existing but being. When I say being I do not mean a physical sensation of existence.
Contingency must be present for awareness to exist and yet, at the same time, in a pure state of awareness, contingency is absent - although it exists it does not exist. I do know and realise that the "me" that is now is an ideation having no real reality but the need and deire (through existing) to appear so. My use of language is deficient to explain what I want to say. If one suddenly switches to an awareness state - without thought - where nothing exists except awareness which is and is not consciousness what is it that one has - an expansion, limitless. That's the closest I can get to my understanding.
Perhaps I have missed your point anyway, Brian.
Enjoy Hawaii.
Elizabeth W

[Sid]

"The One is playing a game of hide and seek with itself. All paths lead to nowhere because there is nowhere to go. No dogma required. That's when the trouble begins."

I feel that there is a place for our awareness to go. I feel that our awareness can go to a much more beautiful and higher place, beyond our wildest imaginations of the mind. That place is a place to go, I must say, it is called Sach Khand, it is beyond the great void surrounding this dark pit of creation, and it is vast, full of God's best creation and truth and everything and more.

Of course, you can say there is no place for awareness to go. I mean, there is physical senses, mind planes, and then the great void of nothing.

Very scary and lonely. Really it is scary, for we have no proof, only faith, only a hope that if we try Sant Mat out, then it will work.

Our desire is for truth. Right now, We don't know for a fact that there is anything beyond this void, but it is worth a try for many of us.

That inner guru can take us outta the void, according to Sant mat, and into the better creation, and to the Lord himself, and then to pure nothingness, at long last.

[Sid]

Tuscon says: "Sid needs a definition of 'dogma' which is a body of beliefs put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds or evidence to support it.

In the case of Sant Mat dogma there are NO grounds or evidence to support it...none except hearsay and books. Admit it, Sid."

Well, there is no proof. But there is a PULL. There is a ATTRACTION to Sant Mat. There is this attraction to the words of Sant Mat, because it claims that our attention can be put on the Inner Master in the Astral, (after we bring our awareness to the third eye and cross the planets), and His form, with our attention on it, takes us up to places nobody else can go because their awareness didn't get lucky enough to find a inner master by talking to his outer physical form and ask him for initiation.

No disciplines, no dogmas no purification, just meditate and find the inner master's form, and he takes you up, and allows your awareness to be aware of some very very enjoyable things, the shabd, which will purify you to a high extent because of the glorious experience of being aware of it, and then he also takes you to a higher, more subtle area where your awareness goes on a spirit body, in a vastly better place called Sach Khand.

There is no proof no grounds maybe, But we can try it, for it COULD BE GOD'S PLAN. It seems like a fairy tale.

It seems impossible.

But you gotta try it, for everyone to his own experience. These are just my opinions, I post them here for no reason, at all, except for my pull towards Sant Mat.

[Sid]

Elizabeth W., Brian is not asking what awareness of nothing is, he is asking CAN we be aware of nothing.

Elizabeth, your answer to his question is probably you don't know, right? I mean have you been aware of nothing before? how can you know? It's hard to know because when we dream at night, we don't remember a lot of what happens, so we very well may have been aware of nothing, but we don't know for we didn't purposely consciously become aware of nothing, like Sant Mat says you can after meeting the Lord.

"Awareness to me is a state of consciousness within consciousness and yet not"

Awareness is always, it is forever. We are always pure awareness. We are always purely aware, it just depends on what we are aware of.
But to be aware of nothing, well that is something that seems pretty hard. Maybe we can try to clear our thoughts and what not, but we seem to always come back to this world.

[tAo]

Sid writes:

"When we spiritually advance, we get the chance to put our awareness on the inner master through meditation. His amazing form is easy for us to put our awareness on."

-- This "inner master" idea is only more conceptual dogma. There is no inner or outer for awareness. Meditation is nothing more than to simply to naturally abide as awareness - simply being aware - and more specifically, awareness OF awareness. Thus, real meditation has nothing to do with visualizing the forms of masters etc. etc.

"He then has total control of your awareness"

-- This statement is absolute total nonsense. Absurd nonsense. It is an absurd and unfounded idea. NO one has control of awareness.... not over your awareness, nor over anyone else's awareness. Awareness cannot be contolled by anyone, not even your own. Awareness simply IS. It is not an object... and so it is not an object that can be controlled.

"which is a pretty scary concept I must say."

-- You are deluded by false concepts and mistaken ideas.

"Then, his form takes us up through creation, at his mercy."

-- No one "takes" you anywhere. No "form" can do any such thing. And "creation" is only the the thoughts, the senses, the mind.

"At the highest level our master takes us, depending on his own level"

-- There is no "highest level". There is no "level" or "master". All of those notions are nothing more than the duality of mental constructs, the mind.

"we may eventually have a chance for awareness of nothing, but as of right now, we cannot be aware of nothing."

-- That is complet utter nonsense. It makes no sense at all. There is no "awareness of nothing". This "nothing" is merely an idea. There is only AWARENESS. "Nothing" and "Something" are both simply ideas and words. They are but the manifestation, or appearance, of duality.

"this is all true. For, ... we would be fools to think that we at this time have the ability to put our awareness on nothing."

-- Awareness simply IS. This "nothing" is simply an idea, it is not more than an idea, just a thought, an appearance in/of duality.

"Our awareness is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS on something."

-- Wrong. Incorrect. Awareness simply IS. Awareness is not "on" anything. That "something" is just a passing transitory phenomena. It is merely phenomena appearing within Awareness.

"Most of the time, it is on the objects and things of this world."

-- Awareness is not "on" anything. Objects and things are merely transitory appearances that occur within the space of Awareness. Awareness is never "on" anything.

"That is because our awareness is usually jacked into the five senses and receiving information through the retina."

-- No. Awareness is independent of the senses. The senses are also only perceptions occuring within the unbounded space of Awareness.

"So all five senses is what we are usually aware of in different combinations."

-- There is no "we" or "I" who is aware. Awareness simply IS. This "I" and "we" is only a thought occuring within awareness itself.

"When we sleep, our awareness is on memories, images of the past, and other mind related colors and sounds."

-- Again, awareness is not "on memories" or on "images", "sounds" etc. All these are but merely thoughts (vritti) and perceptions that are occuring within Awareness (chitta).

"Somewhere around the throat and naval chakras."

-- This is simply presumptive mental constructs.

"Our awareness is ALWAYS on some color some form some thought, SOMETHING."

-- No. Awareness is never "on" anything. Awareness is llike space, like the empty sky, the field of all manifestion of phenomena. Awareness is not "on" an phenomena. Phenomena simply occur within the unbounded space or field of Awareness.

"When we meditate, we focus our awareness on one thing, instead of it being on many things."

-- No. Again, awareness is never 'focused' on anything. What you are actually speaking of is termed 'attention', NOT Awareness. There is a vast difference between Awareness and attention. Attention is related to thought. Awareness is PRIOR to, and independent of, attention. Attention is merely thought. Attention is the focus of thought... it is not Awareness. It appears that you really do not understand these things. And so you should not voice your opinions about such kinds of things that you do not accurately understand or comprehend.

"We focus on the inner manifestations of light at the eye center, and forget about the world."

-- There is no such need to "forget about the world"... or to focus on any center. All phenomena are only appearing within the Awareness. There is no need to try to manipulate focus onto anything. This idea and activity is duality, and doing so perpetuates a subject-object dichotomy. There is no end to this kind of approach. It is a faulty and misleading doctrine.

"Then, as Sant Mat goes on to say, we meet the inner master after the Light has grown and exploded..."

-- Again, this is the dualistic notion of Sant mat that you continue to advertise and promote, but nevertheless it is a faulty and misleading doctrine which you are parroting.

"our awareness is trapped"

-- Incorrect. Awareness is primordial. It can never be "trapped" into anything. That is fundamentaly not possible.

"EVEN A YOGI cannot put his awareness past the great void above the 4th region."

-- That is nothing more than ignorant suppositions and unfounded dogma. You cannot make such claims or judgements, because you have no direct experience or realization of what you are describing. Youi are merely parroting dualistic dogma.

"After we take our awareness out of the causal, we are basically a naked spirit, but I don't know exactly what the 4th region is like I'll look into it more some day."

-- Please refrain from your endless parroting and posting of this type of nonsense dogma and doctrine. It is not helpful or productive to this forum.

"there is a great void of darkness there onwards, so the masters form will take us through this unimaginably dark manifestation into more higher levels of God's creation."

-- Please refrain from your endless parroting and posting of this type of nonsense dogma and doctrine. It is not helpful or productive to this forum.

"Most without a master, yogis, will think that there is nothing more above the void."

-- You simply do NOT know what you are talking about. You know nothing of the so-called "void", nor about "yogis" etc.

"Anybody can do this if they repent, and love the lord, and wish to reach the highest, the Lord himself."

-- Now you sound like a religious fundamentalist preacher. Enough of this stupid religious garbage! Cut the religious crap. In case you haven't noticed, this blog site is called church of the CHURCHLESS... So get a friggin CLUE dude!!! You are acting like a damned stupid religious freak.

"This is all my opinion."

-- That's obvious.

"I tried to prove it to you, by saying that our awareness is ..."

-- You HAVE NOT PROVEN ANYTHING. You are just babbling a bunch of stupid sant mat rhetoric and insipid mystic dogma.

"the highest grace and love of the lord is when one of the spirit souls above the void come down and pick us up out of their ... mercy to pull us outta maya."

-- You have NO FRIGGIN IDEA of what you are talking about. Go back to your satsangi relatives dude. That's where you belong. Not in this forum. At east not yet. You're incrediby immature, you're not open-minded, and you're not ready for this Churchless forum.

Just wake up and get a clue, instead of endlessly posting all your tired and stale old sant mat doctrine and dogma. We've heard it all before a million times. You ain't got nothing of any vaue to to show us.

Adios

[tAo]

Sid wrote:

"The master is the Shabd"

-- bullshit.

"the shabd is a great thing to have our awareness attached to, the holy spirit the holy ghost."

-- bullshit.

"But nobody can get a Sat Guru or know of his true existence until they have become true seekers, otherwise it's just going to take X number of lives to eventually have faith in a Sat Guru and meet his inner form."

-- bullshit.

"pure awareness is when our awareness has reached a part of creation where there is nothing to be aware of. ... just pure nothing that is, what Sant Mat calls, the highest abode, the incalculable, It's nothing, but ... you have yet to experience it"

-- bullshit.

"But this is all just my opinion."

-- you mean just your bullshit.

"there is a place for our awareness to go. I feel that our awareness can go to a much more beautiful and higher place, beyond our wildest imaginations of the mind. That place is a place to go, I must say, it is called Sach Khand, it is beyond the great void surrounding this dark pit of creation, and it is vast, full of God's best creation and truth and everything and more."

-- total fantasy bullshit.

"we have no proof, only faith, only a hope that if we try Sant Mat out, then it will work."

-- an awfully stupid way to proceed.

"That inner guru can take us outta the void, according to Sant mat, and into the better creation, and to the Lord himself, and then to pure nothingness"

-- pure bullshit.

"there is a PULL. There is a ATTRACTION to Sant Mat. There is this attraction to the words of Sant Mat, because it claims that our attention can be put on the Inner Master in the Astral, (after we bring our awareness to the third eye and cross the planets), and His form, with our attention on it, takes us up to places ... get lucky enough to find a inner master by talking to his outer physical form and ask him for initiation."

-- incredibly naive bullshit.

"no dogmas ... just meditate and find the inner master's form, and he takes you up, and allows your awareness to be aware of some very very enjoyable things, the shabd, which will purify you to a high extent because of the glorious experience of being aware of it, and then he also takes you to a higher, more subtle area where your awareness goes on a spirit body, in a vastly better place called Sach Khand."

-- a mountain of dogma bullshit.

"There is no proof ... It seems like a fairy tale."

-- it IS a fairytale - a big pile of bullshit kind of fairytale.

"you gotta try it ... These are just my opinions, I post them here for no reason, at all, except for my pull towards Sant Mat."

-- THEN GO OVER TO A RADHA SOAMI / SANT MAT FORUM, YOU STUPID RADHA SOAMI NITWIT. THIS IS NOT A PLACE FOR YOU TO PREACH, BABBLE, AND PANDER YOUR RIDICULOUS SANT MAT DOGMA OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. THERE IS ANOTHER FORUM ON YAHOO GROUPS FOR DISCUSSING SANT MAT LIKE YOU WANT TO DO. (and its not the RSS forum) THIS HERE IS NOT THE PLACE TO PUSH AND PROMOTE, TO POST AND POST AND POST AND POST AND POST YOUR DAMN STUPID RADHA SOAMI DOGMA. !!!

YOU ARE A FUCKIN IDIOT ! GO STICK YOUR HEAD IN A TOILET AND FLUSH IT, YOU STUPID DOUCHE-BRAIN !

"when we dream at night ... we very well may have been aware of nothing, but we don't know for we didn't purposely consciously become aware of nothing, like Sant Mat says you can after meeting the Lord."

-- more and more and more bullshit.

[tAo]

Elizabeth W wrote:

"Awareness to me is a state of consciousness within consciousness and yet not."

-- this is double-talk, nonsense.

"Contingency must be present for awareness to exist and yet, at the same time, in a pure state of awareness, contingency is absent - although it exists it does not exist."

-- more meaningless double-talk.

[elizabeth w]

Tao, yes I agree my comment does sound like double-talk. Also I certainly have missed the point of Brian's topic. Also a couple of spelling errors in my comment. However, I do know what I am endeavouring to say : it's just language gets in the way. I'll have another go some other time.
Elizabeth W

[tAo]

Elizabeth,

OK, no personal criticism on my part was intended.

I guess I was still a bit annoyed over the repeated posting and posting of the same old RS dogma by another commenter.

As far as your comment goes, here's the thing...

You said: "Contingency must be present for awareness to exist..."

Awareness does not depend on "contingency". Awareness is the substratum, the space within which phenomena occur. Without awaress, nothing can be said. All we know is because of, and depends upon, awareness. Contingency is irrelevant. Awareness is prior, primordial. We know nothing either before or beyond awareness. Awareness needs nothing else to "exist". Awareness simply IS. It is not a thing. It is not created.

So do you understand what this means?

[Robert Paul Howard]

Dear Sid,

"Very scary and lonely. Really it is scary, for we have no proof, only faith, only a hope that if we try..." --(fill in the name of any religion, cult, philosophy, etc.)-- "...out, then it will work."

Having "no proof," Sant Mat is no more the basis for "hope" than is any other mode of thinking/behaving. You are merely attracted to it rather than to some other.

Robert Paul Howard

[Deepak Kamat]

Tao,

In your vast experience of spirituality, have you come across any person who could leave his body at will (just as mentioned in the Radha Soami fantasy books).

[Sita]

One can experience the subtle body in the body..I have experienced that.
So,also out of the ''fleshbody'' is it possible,I think and feel.

[Roger]

Tao,

Thanks for your comment, some 6 feet (on this thread) before this comment, I am writing now.

True, a WORD can take on many definitions. Likewise, a definition, can be attached to many different words.

It is sad and funny, how 'gimmickry' comes into play when words and phrases are used to promote an agenda.

Awareness, is a word, when used too much can become rather boring. One can dressup that word by attaching another word, such as: Pure. One now has the new and exciting: Pure Awareness. After awhile, pure awareness, when used over and over, gets boring. One can attach a word, such as: Spiritually, and the excitement acquires a new rebirth; Spiritually Pure Awareness. This phrase sounds like a great title for a book. Book sales shall go through the roof. What a gimmick......
Again, Gimmickry, can be amusing, as well as, sad.

[Edward]

Awareness can only be aware of nothing.

Concept Alert: in order for the intellectual mind to perceive, there must be position and a-position.

The language trick in the quote above is, "entirely distinct from the body and everything else you seem to be aware of." There is no distinction of a thing from everything else, including non-thingness.

Awareness of the ten-thousand things is awareness of the non-being from which their being arose.

Also? no duality, but triality: a form; its field; the relationship (or consciousness) between the two.

[Sid]

Tao, for this lets not have useless anger, not that you've shown ne, but in case.

you say This
"inner master" idea is only more conceptual dogma. There is no inner or outer for awareness. Meditation is nothing more than to simply to naturally abide as awareness - simply being aware - and more specifically, awareness OF awareness. Thus, real meditation has nothing to do with visualizing the forms of masters etc. etc."

There is no inner or outer awareness? Can I not be aware of the flashes of light, that I DO SEE after a long time of just looking into the darkness while meditating with my eyes closed? When I see the divine manifestations of light form, the light and swirling lights in front of my vision grow, and my awareness of this light grows.

The inner master concept is a mere idea, I agree, but that doesn't mean that you or me has the right to say that we know any thing. I have repeatedly, repeatedly said that these are just my opinions. Anything is possible, but I myself feel that this is the most likely truth, that a inner master will come if we are initiated from his outter physcial form, he connects his inner form to our astral body, and so after we focus on the inner manifestations of light, we get deeper into the growing light, the light grows in brightness (this is fact for me, not you, because I meditated in the darkness and white light would start to flash and then slowly swirl and then become brighter), so there IS such thing as our awareness going within. Whether the master will be there or not, well thats according to the will of the Supreme Lord who is above all this creation. IMO. Tao, we always "naturally abide as awareness - simply being aware." We are right now naturally abiding as awareness, as you look at the screen and are aware of my words, aware of your emotions aware of different things, you are naturally abiding as awareness, IMO.

"He then has total control of your awareness"

-- This statement is absolute total nonsense. Absurd nonsense. It is an absurd and unfounded idea. NO one has control of awareness.... not over your awareness, nor over anyone else's awareness. Awareness cannot be controlled by anyone, not even your own. Awareness simply IS. It is not an object... and so it is not an object that can be controlled.

It is absurd to you, but not to all us Sant Mat believers. We feel that once our awareness of the stars pulls our awareness out of our bodies, and we fly to the brightest star, and the light bursts, then our master is there, and we become aware of his form. His form is attractive to us because its our master, and it's his radiant form which is very pleasant to look at. If someone were to see oh lets say Sant Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj after that bursting light, and he was initiated by him, and his radiant form didn't have yellow eyes of Kal's fake radiant form, Why would he not hesitate to put his awareness on the radiant form of Gurinder Singh? And after he does, have full awareness of the form, and not of his physical senses anymore, the master can take his awareness anywhere, in my opinion.

Tao, you say "Awareness simply IS."

Well, of course, awareness simply is. But we have control over it. Right now I am putting my awareness on my sense of sight and sound and thoughts so I can write this post. But if I want, I can put my awareness purely on the light and sound of my television set. Or I can put my awareness on a the sounds of a binaural Beats CD. Or I can put my awareness on the inner light of meditation and eventually I will see the grid of stars, and I will focus on the brightest one, and leave my body because of the level of deep meditation. Every man to his own experience. Nobody should trust me or you, they should just do what they heart tells them. This is all opinion. Nobody can say this is fact this is fact and expect people to believe them if they themselves haven't tried it.

Tao says: "And "creation" is only the the thoughts, the senses, the mind."

LOL. You think anybody is going to believe you? Creation, is, only the thoughts the senses and the mind??? HOW do you know this? Are you a yogi? Well you said you were. So that must mean that you have traversed some level of existence. But you say that the limit your awareness was able to be aware of was the thoughts senses and the mind, right?

From your authority of being a yogi, you have found nothing in creation besides thoughts senses and the mind. Does this mean that we should believe you? Maybe you didn't reach the rest of creation because you didn't put your awareness on a Sat Guru or any Guru that is higher than you. I can't blame you too much though, Because the thought of putting your awareness on a master's form is scary, who knows where it will take you. But every man to his own beliefs in Sant Mat after much research.

Tao says: There is no "highest level". There is no "level" or "master". All of those notions are nothing more than the duality of mental constructs, the mind.

Well, where is your proof that there is nothing beyond the mind and senses? Really, how do you know there isn't much higher and subtler regions, even beyond the Causal region where the spirits are able to come down here and pick out the souls from these mind planes?

How do you know? And if you do know, how do you expect to convince us to save us a lot of time? By saying "All of those notions are nothing more than the duality of mental constructs, the mind?"
How can we believe that they are just mental constructs? Why limit our own search, we just cannot trust anyone on the internet.

We don't know if there are higher subtler regions where higher creation lies, because there's no proof.

The only thing we have is Believers in Sant Mat, Non beleivers, and Seekers. You are a non believer, I am a Beleiver, but why are you a non believer? What makes you have proof that it is mental constructs? Are you David Lane or something? David Lane thought he knew everything, But nobody believes him because you just cannot force beliefs on others, every man to his own experience.

Forget me, don't believe me do it yourself your own investigative search, It's your souls, care for it.

Tao says:
That is complete utter nonsense. It makes no sense at all. There is no "awareness of nothing". This "nothing" is merely an idea. There is only AWARENESS. "Nothing" and "Something" are both simply ideas and words. They are but the manifestation, or appearance, of duality.

How do you know? I mean currently, I agree with you when you say "There is only AWARENESS." Yes there is only awareness. Right now I am aware of my typing, and later I will some day be aware of inner manifestations of light. Then I will be aware of inner manifestations of sound. Then I will aware of nothing, no light, no sound, the Sant Mat Goal, awareness of nothing, way beyond Sach Khand.

Tao says:
Wrong. Incorrect. Awareness simply IS. Awareness is not "on" anything. That "something" is just a passing transitory phenomena. It is merely phenomena appearing within Awareness.

Yes my awareness simply is, it simply is on my physical body and senses, it simply is on this laptop right now and my thoughts.

I am always aware of something, that's my awareness. I am aware of love family school demons thoughts tv, whatever the current situation holds, maybe a beautiful tree, maybe inner manifestations of light and sound, maybe on the beautiful inner radiant form of a Sat Guru, but it could be on anything.

Tao says:
No. Awareness is independent of the senses. The senses are also only perceptions occuring within the unbounded space of Awareness.

Right now my awareness is aware of my sense of sight and sense of hearing. Open up your awareness of inner sight and inner hearing of the inner manifestations of light and sound, Surat Shabd Yoga.

Nobody should listien to anybody on this blog, IMO.

EVERY MAN AND WOMAN to his own experience. Forget the people who try to tell you this and that.

WHY BELIEVE ME OR TAO OR ANY OTHER PERSON? Become a yogi yourself. Get initiated yourself and do Sant Mat, stop believing others, including me.

Why believe words, when you can experiment?

Some dumb asses once said the world was flat

Many times in history people got this faces stomped in the concrete for going against other peoples beliefs. " IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE WORLD IS FLAT YOU ARE A DUALISTIC PIECE OF (INSERT) AND YOU DON'T LISTEN TO YOUR ELDERS GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE YOU AREN'T READY FOR THE BIG BOYS WE ARE YOGIS WE SAW THE EDGE OF EARTH IT'S FLAT, BELIEVE ME.

dont believe ne one here. including me. your DIRECT experience will tell you if Sant Mat theory is false, whether it is or not, I myself cannot say nor can Tao or other expect you to believe them.

[Sid]

Always remember to do what you want. You can even put your awareness only on the words of the anti sant mat people of this blog, do it if you want.

I don't want to say that you should or shouldn't do ne thing, sorry. Do believe in others words, IF you feel they are 100 percent logical, in your opinion. But if I were you I wouldn't hesitate to only believe in my own direct experience of Sant Mat.

[Sid]

"you gotta try it ... These are just my opinions, I post them here for no reason, at all, except for my pull towards Sant Mat."

-- THEN GO OVER TO A RADHA SOAMI / SANT MAT FORUM, YOU STUPID RADHA SOAMI NITWIT. THIS IS NOT A PLACE FOR YOU TO PREACH, BABBLE, AND PANDER YOUR RIDICULOUS SANT MAT DOGMA OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. THERE IS ANOTHER FORUM ON YAHOO GROUPS FOR DISCUSSING SANT MAT LIKE YOU WANT TO DO. (and its not the RSS forum) THIS HERE IS NOT THE PLACE TO PUSH AND PROMOTE, TO POST AND POST AND POST AND POST AND POST YOUR DAMN STUPID RADHA SOAMI DOGMA. !!!

YOU ARE A FUCKIN IDIOT ! GO STICK YOUR HEAD IN A TOILET AND FLUSH IT, YOU STUPID DOUCHE-BRAIN !

You, my very, very good friend, are the one who has his head in a toilet. The toilet is called the mental and physical planes.

Pull your head outta there and experience yourself and the real world around you, Sach Khand, and then Meet the Lord himself.

Until then, I ask, why are you so sure God doesn't exist? These physical and mental planes could very well be just our real spirit's head in a toilet.

You are angry, yet you aren't the admin of this site, the owner of this site. The owner of this site will tell me to leave or not, and I will very happily do his bidding.

[Sid]

why are you trying to tell me what to do? I don't wanna go to "A RADHA SOAMI / SANT MAT FORUM," I want to stay here.

You are saying Sant Mat is this and that, but you opinions aren't helping the true seekers, for they want direct experience, not demoniac language.

My direct experience says, and yours does to, that We cannot be sure that God does in fact exist.

You cannot be positive. You can only have an inflated ego and claim to know all the answers, when you have no proof that God never existed.

I think you might be a possessed physical body that posts here to keep people away from doing Sant Mat so that they do not realize their true nature.

Why else would you be so swayed as to say that God doesn't exist.

How is it that you are so sure. You must realize you have no proof.

[Sid]

Even OSHO the "GURU" Said that God is not only dead but he never existed.

He also made jokes about Jesus Christ.

UHHHHH HOW IS IT NOT OBVIOUS THAT OSHO WAS BEING USED BY THE NEGATIVE POWER? He forces information down your throat, like Tao.

[Sid]

If you wanna know if awareness can be aware of nothing, then follow Sant Mat. DO not follow Tao.

Sant Mat gives you a path to eventually be able to be aware of nothing. Forget other peoples words. Do what you want, don't just forget that your soul really matters to you. Don't meditate without a Sat Guru like Gurinder Singh, IMO, or else your physical body could become possessed or your mental body could get raped or trapped or something messed up. IMHO.

[tAo]

Sid,

There was no "useless anger".

"There is no inner or outer awareness?" -- That is correct, there is ONLY just awareness - no inner or outer.

"The inner master concept is a mere idea, I agree, but that doesn't mean that you or me has the right to say that we know any thing." -- I know what I know. And I do have a right to say what I know.

"...we always naturally abide as awareness - simply being aware. We are right now naturally abiding as awareness..."

-- However... someone is not necessarily aware of that.

"It is absurd to you, but not to all us Sant Mat believers."

-- Then thats your problem, not mine.

"the master can take his awareness anywhere, in my opinion."

-- That's just your illusion, your fantasy, your belief.

"of course, awareness simply is. But we have control over it."

-- You have no control over awareness. You only have contol over ATTENTION. I have already explained to you: Attention is not the same as awareness....and awareness is not the same as attention. So you are confused.

"Nobody can say this is fact this is fact and expect people to believe them if they themselves haven't tried it."

-- I have "tried it".

"You think anybody is going to believe you? Creation, is, only the thoughts the senses and the mind???"

-- That's correct.

"HOW do you know this?"

-- When you are awakened, you will know.

"you say that the limit your awareness was able to be aware of was the thoughts senses and the mind, right?"

-- NO. Absolutely not. That is NOT what I said at all... or what is the limit of my awareness.

"your authority of being a yogi"

-- To be a yogi has nothing to do with this "authority" nonsense.

"have found nothing in creation besides thoughts senses and the mind."

-- The creation IS the thoughts, the senses, the mind.

"Does this mean that we should believe you? Maybe you didn't reach the rest of creation"

-- Maybe you don't know what you are even talking about. Because you have no idea what I know or what I have experienced and realized.

"because you didn't put your awareness on a Sat Guru or any Guru that is higher than you."

-- I don't need to. I AM the reality itself. I AM primordial awareness. There is no "Guru that is higher" than me. Unfortunately, you are trapped in kind of a conceptual fiction of ideas and beliefs that have connection to reality.

"where is your proof that there is nothing beyond the mind and senses?"

-- I did not say that. I said that senses and mind are not separate from reality. That it is not necessary to reject or escape from mind and senses. You are confused again.

"Really, how do you know there isn't much higher and subtler regions, even beyond the Causal region where the spirits are able to come down here and pick out the souls from these mind planes?"

-- I did not say that. All those regions and planes and such are merely phenomena... they are merely appearances in the underlying reality of Awareness. As such, they are imaginary and thus irrelevant.

"How do you know? And if you do know, how do you expect to convince us...?"

-- Simply because I have awakened. But I am not trying or expecting to "convince" you of anything. It is really YOU who are trying so very desperately to convince us and others of the validity of Sant Mat.

"How can we believe that they are just mental constructs? Why limit our own search, we just cannot trust anyone"

-- You don't have to believe anything. Go find out for yourself. No one is asking you to "trust" anything... It is really YOU who are repeatedly asking others to "trust" in Sant Mat.

"The only thing we have is Believers in Sant Mat ... I am a Believer, but why are you a non believer?"

-- Because I have awakened.

"What makes you have proof that it is mental constructs?"

-- ALL ideas incuding the ones that you put forth, are mental constructs. Every idea or belief is a mental construct. It might help you if you were more educated in philosophy, psychology, and metaphysics. You aren't very well educated. On the other hand, I am very well educated. I have a PhDs in psychology and philosophy, and I am extremely well versed in the principles of metaphysics.

"Are you David Lane or something? David Lane thought he knew everything, But nobody believes him...because you just cannot force beliefs on others"

-- No, I am not David Lane. Also, you are quite incorrect when you say that "nobody believes him". As a matter of fact, a great many people agree with him. And David Lane is definitely not forcing beliefs on anyone. Quite the contrary. Lane is opposed to such unsubstantiated beliefs. So again, you very very uninformed, and you just don't know what you are talking about. You really should try to refrain from making such unfounded and erroneous assertions.

"I am always aware of something, that's my awareness."

-- No, thats your attention. Awareness is just awareness.

"Nobody should listien to anybody on this blog"

-- Then don't. Just go away and mind your own business. No one is asking you to listen. No one is telling you to listen. If you don't find any value r insight here, then go somewhere ese. No one is forcing you to come here, or making you post endless comments and uninformed opinions here.

"Forget the people who try to tell you this and that."

-- Then by your own advice, forget what the Sant mat people are trying to tell you. Practice ehat you preach. If you say don't listen to anyone, then you shoud not listen to the RS cult and its leader either. Presently, you are simply a hypocrite. You tell others not to listen, but you yourself do listen and buy into and parrot all of the RS dogma and pseudo-mysticism.

"WHY BELIEVE ME OR TAO...?

-- Don't believe anyone. Just wake up to reality.

Become a yogi yourself. Get initiated yourself and do Sant Mat, stop believing others, including me.

-- If that is what you believe, then you should just shut up and go practice what you preach. However... it does not require one to "get initiated" in order to be a Yogi. You are the one who is NOT initiated, so why are you telling those who ARE initiated to go "get initiated"? As is very typical of most of your comments, you don't make any sense.

"Many times in history people got this faces stomped in the concrete for going against other peoples beliefs."

-- YOU are the one here who has all the beliefs, not the rest of us. So just look at yourself and your own beliefs.

"your ... experience will tell you if Sant Mat theory is false, whether it is or not, I myself cannot say nor can Tao"

-- No. It's already quite obvious that YOU cannot say... but I CAN SAY, and I DO SAY. So just DEAL WITH IT.

No one is making you stay here and repeatedly post the same stale old sant mat and RS dogma and blind faith in religious cult gurus.

Go get a real life dude... not a life of warmed over sant mat dogma rubbish.

[tAo]

Sid said:

"follow Sant Mat. DO not follow Tao. Sant Mat gives you a path to eventually be able to be aware of nothing."

"Don't meditate without a Sat Guru like Gurinder Singh, or else your physical body could become possessed or your mental body could get raped or trapped or something messed up."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sid,

You really need to get some professional Psychiatric help. You've got some serious mental and emotional problems. Seriously.

It has become quite obvious that you are obsessed, fearful, and to a fair degree delusional, and you have a significant degree of 'magical thinking'. You may be a schizophrenic.

I would strongly advise you to seek out immediate professional psychiatric evaluation and therapy and counseling. You definitley have some sort of serious mental and/or emotional problems. Almost of the content of your comments indicate that.

Do yourself and others a favor... go get some professional help before you get any worse. I mean that sincerely.

[Brian]

Sid, you mentioned the preference of the "owner of this site" in one of your many recent comments (that one is above, on this post).

Here's what I have to say about the extensive interchanges you've been having via comments.

I'm on vacation. I scan your comments quickly, but don't read them. Ditto for most of the responses to your comments.

Some subjects interest me. Repetitive back and forth arguments, where re-stating of what already has been said is most of what is going on, doesn't interest me. I suspect that most other blog visitors feel the same way.

That said, do what you think is right. That's all any of us can do. You've been drawn to defend a point of view. You feel drawn to Sant Mat in general, and RSSB in particular.

That's fine. But you might ask yourself, "What good am I doing, for myself or others, by engaging in these arguments about what is true and isn't true?"

Yes, some arguing is good. I do it all the time. But once you say something, and the other person has heard it, and doesn't agree with you, it's very unlikely that more of the same is going to change any minds.

Just something to think about.

One thing more: in scanning your comments I did notice that you said someone hasn't proved that God doesn't exist. Sid, nobody can prove that anything doesn't exist. This is impossible.

What science says, and this makes sense in spirituality also, is that an affirmative proof is necessary. It's up to the person making a claim to provide evidence of it, not up to the skeptic to show there's no evidence.

Do you see the difference? Nobody can say that God doesn't exist. It's difficult, if not impossible, to prove a negative -- especially for something that doesn't have a definite location or form.

I mean, if you say there is a car in your driveway, I can look and see there isn't. But it might be a miniature car, a nano particle car, so that doesn't prove a car isn't there.

Regardless, it's your job to provide the evidence that a car is in your driveway. Just as it is your job to provide evidence that God exists, if you make this claim.

[Sid]

Lemme take your words with seriousness. Maybe you are right. Tell me, what are the symptoms in my life that show I need this help, besides this internet blog?

Hmm, are you such a yogi that you spy on me? What symptoms in my life, do I show, besides what you see on this blog?

I myself, the real me, does not think about this mysticism beyond this internet blog.

Basically, my main thinking on this blog is that You yourself, Tao, need professional psychiatric evaluation and therapy and counseling, deep, deep counseling. I mean you really should do it for yourself.

Why is it that you continually claim that you have proof that God does not exist?

You continually claim that God does not exist, yet you have no proof. I wish you could tell us why you are so certain.

There are true seekers on this blog, so I hope you do not try to tell them God does not exist, because you say so, based on your experience. That would rob them of their own opportunity to find out these things for themselves. It bothers me when you say there is no God there is no Spirt there is no Soul, when you have no proof. Just please stop it.

[poohbear]

Sid,
I would like to give you some friendly advice -
As yours and Tao's posts are beginning to dominate this blog, you may like to consider how boring it gets for others who have no interest in your naive rantings from your soapbox. I'm not crazy over Tao's retorts either, but you are the one who is getting him wound up.
I understand that you are 18 years of age and have been soaked in Sant Mat theory maybe since an early age. But there is one helluva difference between theory and application. A spiritual philosophy only points out a direction, and is merely a bunch of words and ideas. Spirituality is experiential and your blather tells the world loud and clear that you have no experience. Is this not an embarrassment to yourself?
A lot of us were 18 once and know the feeling. So I'm just suggesting that you consider containing yourself until you know what you're talking about.
And I'll repeat - this is a friendly post.

[Sid]

That's fine. But you might ask yourself, "What good am I doing, for myself or others, by engaging in these arguments about what is true and isn't true?"

My friend, God is very important to many people. If people like Tao are aloud here, they (believers) are at risk of faulty influence. For Tao claims there is no God no Soul No spirit, and he does so without proof without proof. I see through his arguments. He claims that God never existed.
He himself has no proof that higher things like God exist, so I ponder what are HIS motives.

Tao what are your motives by saying God is our imagination? are you trying to help others? well I think that you should stop. You yourself cannot know such things.

[Sid]

Tao has given no proof that subtler regions of existence exist that we can become aware of using a Sat Guru. He claims that he has disproven it, when you cannot disprove such theory.

[tAo]

Sid,

I am going to say this to you one more time, and this is the last time that I am going to say the following:

Brian has asked you, I have asked you, and others have also asked you to refrain from the continual, obsessive, and repetitive posting in defense of sant mat and radha soami that you do.

I have repeatedly given you numerous very sensible, pragmatic, and to-the-point responses to your virtually endless questions, opinions, and drivel.

It has become obvious to myself and others that it is a kind of game to you. However, both myself and others are really quite bored with this, and have gradually become annoyed with your obsessive posting.

As I said, I have tried to give you resonable responses, but to no avail. It is now clear that you are not interested in an open and intelligent discussion. You are here merely to justify yourself and defend RS dogma.

As Brian pointed out, no one here has to prove anything. The burden of proof is all upon those like yourself who make the claims.

This is not an RSSB forum. This is Brian's personal Blog, and we are guests here. He should not have to put up with this stuff, this weirdly obsessive posting that you are doing. And so in respect and deference to Brian, I am not going to respond to your nonsense anymore. I have already said all what I wanted to say many times over. But its now quite clear that you are not listening. Your real intentions and "motives" were altogether different from the very beginning.

No one is intersted in someone such as you (who has no experience in Santmat and RS) telling them what it's all about. Your entire schtick is ridiculous. So please do everyone a big favor and chill out... otherwise Brian may start deleting your posts. (and of course, thats entirely up to him) I would also again suggest that you get some professional mental health assistance.

Before I end this, my last and final comment to you, I would also like to make a few things very clear to you and other readers:

1.) Contrary to your fabricated erroneous assertions, I have NOT said or claimed that I have "proof" that "God does not exist". I have NOT said or implied that "God never existed" as you so very falsely claim.

2.) Nobody here is being "robbed" of any opportunity to find out anything for themselves.

3.) I do NOT say "there is no Spirit there is no Soul". I only say that these are merely ideas. And I am not going to "stop" expressing my thoughts or opinions just because you you don't understand that.

4.) Everyone IS "allowed" here, and NO "believers are at risk of faulty influence." No more so than your "influence" is faulty. Believers are free to choose to believe whatever they want (and the same goes for non-believers). But I don't have to agree with them, and I don't have to suppress my disagreement either. This is a place for open discussion, not a forum for you to try to foist and try to indoctrinate people to your immature ideas and opinions in defense Santmat and RS. If you don't like that other people disagree with you or with RS, then you are free to go elsewhere. No one here is much interested in your repetitive renditions of RS dogma.

5.) I do NOT have to give any "proof". I do NOT say there is God, or there isn't God. I have made no claims either for or against.
The burden of proof is all upon those who claim that there IS God, soul, spirit.

6.) Sid, YOU are the one who "has no proof that higher things like God exist". Not I. I don't claim anything, so I don't need to furnish any proof.

7.) My saying, or rather my implying that "God is our imagination" is simply that - This term "God" is merely an idea in the mind. And also, I am NOT going to "stop", and I have every right to be able to "know such things" for myself.

8.) I need furnish NO such "proof" that "subtler regions of existence exist", for I did not say otherwise. Nor did I ever claim that I have "disproven it". Basically all of your allegations with regard to me are false... because they are NOT what I said nor are they what I meant.

In conclusion, it is NOT my fault that you have so grossly misunderstood almost all of my statements, opinions, and shared insights. Your little game here is clearly not sincere, nor is it fair or respectful of you to overwhelm this small blog forum with so many unnecessary comments as you have been doing.

Therfore, in respect to Brian and in fairness to others here, I am not going to respond to your nonsense or your game anymore. This is all I have to say to you about this matter. So don't bother trying to bait me any further.

Good-bye.

[tAo]

Poohbear,

Let me please make myself clear to you:

I have no intention to "dominate this blog" anymore than you do. I merely made several or more attempts to respond to the many erroneoous assertions and absurd claims that "Sid" made regarding myself and what I do say and don't say.

I myself find Sid's repeated comments ad nauseam to be quite "boring" as well. So don't try to lump me in. I can will respond to anyone who makes false or erroneous statements about me or about what I have said. If you don't like that, then blame those like Sid, not me.

I don't own or dominate this blog anymore than anyone else. I would not tell you not to defend yourself if you were in a similar position.

I have already made mention of Sid's obsessive posting some time ago. If you don't agree with my responses to someone like Sid, then make your own responses, or not. I don't hog or dominate this forum any more than anyone else does. It is all about Sid's cronic and obsessive posting that is the issue here, not I.

You said: "I'm not crazy over Tao's retorts either, but you are the one who is getting him wound up."

-- Well fyi, I am NOT "wound up" at all. I resent that insinuation. In any case, if you don't like my "retorts"... well then tough darts. Make your own retorts then. Or don't. The problem here is Sid, not me.

I have already made it quite clear that I have nothing more to say to Sid, so please don't try to implicate me in this any further. I have already said all that I need to say. And it is clear to both of us (and others), that Sid is the one who has the problem.

So I hope you understand my position as I have indicated it.

My sincere regards.

[poohbear]

Tao,
I hear you.
We're cool at this keyboard. Hope you're cool there.
BTW - I liked your Texas dude's music. Thanks for the link.

[Sid]

You say spirt soul and such is just ideas? What makes you think that all the saints of the present and past are just using their imagination to say what they say about spirit soul and the supreme Lord? To them, it is not imagination, but you feel that they are liars?

Was Jesus not a savior who could take people to the "mansions of the Lords Kingdom?" Then what do you think all these saints and mystics were doing? Were they all just confused, or maybe you just didn't give them a chance.

[tucson]

Sid wrote: "What makes you think that all the saints of the present and past are just using their imagination to say what they say about spirit soul and the supreme Lord?"

--Anything anyone says about the "supreme lord" is imagination, including what little I say below.

"To them, it is not imagination, but you feel that they are liars?"

--Absolutely, because nothing can be said that would be accurate including this.

"Was Jesus not a savior who could take people to the "mansions of the Lords Kingdom?"

--There is a great deal of debate that Jesus even existed. Besides, you can't be taken to where you already are. If there was a Jesus who said he could take you to the Lord, he was delusional..a madman leading sheep to nowhere.

"Then what do you think all these saints and mystics were doing?"

--mouthing off.

--This is hard to explain and why some Buddhists, advaitists and similar types don't speak of God. It is not that God doesn't exist. It is that God can't be known as an object of a subject. Both are conceptual only, reflecting the other to itself like an image in a mirror reflecting itself to an opposite mirror and back ad infinitum. It is a functioning (for want of a better word), not a thing..as such God does not, could not exist.

God might say, "When the beetle sees, it is I that am seeing, but I am nowhere to be found."