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March 10, 2008

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Dear Brian,

I am greatly amused to see an absolute new form of grasp of the sant mat portrayed in cartoons.

I consider cartoons the best way of hidden expressions. Please convey my sincere thanks to Bart for an excellent contribution.

In one of recent monthly magazine "Spiritual Link" of RSSB meant for Indian as well as foreign circulation has a cartoon very often.

How many initiates are the real followers of the tenets of Sant Mat? Practically very few. You must know it well that life of a satsangi is not dull and insipid. It takes a life long effort to adhere to tenets of sant mat. Every time you fall, you get up and again start walking. Success rate is abysmally low.

Nothing is unknown to you............

I stop now,

With love,

Great cartoons and a dumb defence of RSSB again from Rakesh Bhasin.

Rakesh Bhasin says: "How many initiates are the real followers of the tenets of Sant Mat? Practically very few."

That is because the tenets of RSSB are impracticable. An initiate is expected to do simran 24 X 7. It is impractical.

"You must know it well that life of a satsangi is not dull and insipid."

Yes, a satsangi's life is insipid. He is not supposed to enjoy, celebrate, always he is supposed to be serious and think about the final day.

"It takes a life long effort to adhere to tenets of sant mat. Every time you fall, you get up and again start walking. Success rate is abysmally low."

Bullshit, the ideal just does not exist. You may follow RSSB for an entire lifetime, Rakesh. I have already ditched the impracticable tenets of RSSB.

And Brian, I really liked the cartoon about "seeing God in everyone while remaining detached to everything else".

During my early 20s, I was high on Sant Mat and whenever pretty girls hovered around me, I used to sweat and pretend as if I was above sex. This hypocrisy was a result of RSSB thinking.

I now regret my missed chances. I should have seen God in those pretty girls who hovered around me.

Brian,

Amused at your blogg, so the path has shown you the light ;) I think whilst resting in the shade of weak minded people you have lulled yourself into the belief something ain't right here. Like attracts like, so now you find all these other weak minded people. And you proudly reaffirm your disbelief.

Perhaps you under estimated yourself and the path, and now its a reflex action to justify this weakness. If you are so bold to dismiss this path, can you find any which meets your expectations? Or is spiritual independence simply a belief in the mind? Are you chasing your shadow?

Still I was amazed that after 20 years you still didn't have the courage to dip your toe into spirituality, suppose distractions must be great.

Listen to Charles and build your muscles...
Now there is a cartoon for you.

Charles, I don't really understand what you're saying. Maybe you could exercise your bluntness muscles and speak more clearly.

You imply that you know what the ocean is spirituality is all about, and how to dip one's toe into it, whereas I don't.

I'm always looking for someone wiser than me to point me in the right direction. So, point. Clearly. Directly.

Well I suppose 'spirituality' has provided you with interesting conversational material at least.

Your mileage may vary...

In defense of Brian, and the rest of us who are far from being "weak minded" (unlike the previous commenter), and because apparenty the previous commenter named Charles Atlas (which I will hereafter refer to as simply "Charles") is unable to present his arguments in a clear and intelligble manner, I will try to dissect and question, and perhaps interpret his troubled and confused tangle of thoughts:

After a wee bit of initial sarcasm, Charles said:

"I think whilst resting in the shade of weak minded people you have lulled yourself into the belief something ain't right here."

-- Charles is stating that Brian has been influenced by "weak minded people", and that Brian has a "belief" that something is amiss (in Santmat/RS?). But this implies that Chares is not "weak minded", and that Santmat/RS is perfect in all respects. However, Charles gives no evidence to support his claims.

Charles said: "Like attracts like, so now you find all these other weak minded people. And you proudly reaffirm your disbelief."

-- Now Charles labels others here as being "weak minded" as well. And then he reverses himself by sarcastically targeting what he now refers to as Brian's "disbelief".

Charles said: "Perhaps you under estimated yourself and the path, and now its a reflex action to justify this weakness."

-- Still asserting that Brian is weak minded, Charles now speculates that, due to being weak minded, Brian has somehow "under estimated" "the path". Yet he fails to show any evidence of how "the path" has been under-estimated.

Chares said: "If you are so bold to dismiss this path, can you find any which meets your expectations?"

-- Charles thinks it is "bold" to dismiss "this path". Why is it "bold"? Why is it bold to think and to reason and to question something? Only a person who thinks that nothing should ever be examined or questioned would think this way. As if questioning Santmat/RS is somehow inappropriate and off limits.

Charles said: "Or is spiritual independence simply a belief in the mind?"

-- Charles is obviously quite confused here. He defends his own Santmat/RS "belief" in his own "mind", but then turns around and implies that "spiritual independence" (which is basically excercising freedom from beliefs), is somehow an incorrect "belief in the mind". That's pretty darn confused.

Charles said: "Are you chasing your shadow?"

-- I will have to agree with Brian here. Because what "shadow" is CA referring to? The term "shadow" could refer to many different things. Again, Charles is not specific and he gives no evidence to support his vague and confused arguements and claims.

Charles said: Still I was amazed that after 20 years you still didn't have the courage to dip your toe into spirituality..."

-- Charles is implying that Brian is afraid and has not engaged in any sort of spirituality during the past 20 years. Its amazing that Charles could be so dense. Which says something about Charles' extreme lack of perception when it comes to Brian and what Brian has shared on this blog.

Charles said: "...suppose distractions must be great."

-- As if "distractions" are somehow a detriment? What "distractions" is Charles referring to exactly? And why would such so-called "distractions" be a problem? There seems to be some idea on the part of Charles wherein he thinks that Brian (and other "weak-minded" folks) are somehow "distracted" from something. But what is that something? It appears that Charles has certain preconceived ideas in his "mind" about what does and does not constitute appropriate spirituality. Yet he is unable to elaborate. His inability to be specific and show evidence indicates theat he has a far weaker mind than those who he ridicules.

Charles said: "Listen to Charles and build your muscles..."

-- No one is going to "listen" until you actually show us your "muscles" Charles. So lets see you deliver something more substantial than just your pretentious and flimsy attempt at "shadow" boxing.

Indeed, thats why I preferred Brian's answer to the post. I am not sure he needed you to be his knight in shining armour. I would say he was doing quite well on his own, and as you say he has 20 years of ...

In answer to Brian's request, the direction was and is the same as it was back in 1971.
My post was tongue is cheek to start with because after so long on any teaching, how could simple rules present problems, and even register on the scale of interesting?

tAo - you seem to be pleading ignorance when it suits you, or perhaps you really are? Tell you what, give yourself a pat on the back, now, doesn't your ego feel better ;)

Charles wrote: "thats why I preferred Brian's answer to the post. I am not sure he needed you to be his knight in shining armour. I would say he was doing quite well on his own"

-- That's just tough darts. If you don't care to have others like myself commenting about your statements, or supporting Brian, then you should simply send your comments to Brian in a private e-mail. Whatever you post here is open and fair game for all comments, discussion, challlenges, and possibly criticism.

"In answer to Brian's request, the direction was and is the same as it was back in 1971."

-- And what "direction" is that? As Brian mentioned, you are still not speaking clearly. Why do you have such difficulty being clear and specific? What exactly ARE you trying to say?

"...after so long on any teaching, how could simple rules present problems, and even register on the scale of interesting?"

-- Again, what are you referring to? Re: "simple rules", "present problems" etc. What exactly are you trying to say?

"tAo - you seem to be pleading ignorance when it suits you, or perhaps you really are?"

-- "pleading ignorance" of what? You are still coming across as vague and apparently confused.

"give yourself a pat on the back, now, doesn't your ego feel better"

-- Sounds like you have some kind of problem with the matter of "ego"... but then its curious how your comment reveals your own inflated ego.

Charles,

Not that he needs my help, but you have resorted to calling Tao an ignorant egotist which only demonstrates your own weakness and inability to intelligently address his comments to you. Usually, when people resort to name-calling, they have nothing substantive to offer as a counter-argument. I think you're out of your league here.

Great cartoons! Quoting from Oliver Twist, "May I have some more please?"
Kevin

Dear Deepak,

I can not sympathize with you the way you have taken or left the path.
Doing Simran 24 X 7, is a state which one attains automatically at a very late stage. One can not begin with it. Sant mat remains a contradiction in itself unless or until the doubts are resolved through meditation. Discussion is no remedy.

I was deriding at heart to read in your comment that I was posing a dumb defense of RSSB. I am not meant for any religious organization. In fact, these religious organizations are for me. I am free to visit any of them or all of them. It is a narrow thinking if we confine ourselves to a particular religion. The major apple of discord amongst people is that they have identified themselves with a particular group or cult.

Kindly rise above it.

With love,

Rakesh,

There is no question of rising above or sinking below. I am myself.

I don't need the artificial crutches of Sant Mat to walk on. I am on my own. I would advise you to rise above the RSSB cult.

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matthew 7:6

Brian, Tao, and Tucson,

This sounds like the beginning of another long and dreadful thread.

Roger said: "This sounds like the beginning of another long and dreadful thread."

Don't worry Rog, I don't think there's much fanning of the flames in this one. There's not much to get your teeth into when the best Charles can do is call people ignorant egotists, dogs and swine. Why should he waste his time on such hopeless low-lifes?

Some of these cartoons depict exactly a few of the reasons why many are finally leaving the teachings of Sant Mat. There is a lot of importance put on trivial things such as, like Brian pointed out, the terrifying idea that many satsangis have to inadvertently eat a speck of forbidden food, among many other things. Restrictions like these make the path very insipid and put the disciple on a constant quandary where normal daily live becomes a mesh of hesitations…a disciple is always on guard, questioning everything and everybody trying to live a “perfect” life…and in the midst of all that, life passes him/her by and many precious “present” moments are lost forever. The here and now is always sacrificed for the hereafter. How do you know all of these, you may ask? Well because for 11 years I was that disciple.
Peace!

Well said and right on target Zion. Zion you really nailed it in a nutshell when you said:

"...put the disciple on a constant quandary where normal daily live becomes a mesh of hesitations…a disciple is always on guard, questioning everything and everybody trying to live a “perfect” life…and in the midst of all that, life passes him/her by and many precious “present” moments are lost forever. The here and now is always sacrificed for the hereafter."

YES. And after that, what more need be said about it? But do keep tellin it like it is.

But then of course, the herd of brain-washed blind cult/hive followers will no doubt continue to babble on and on in their vain and futile attempts to defend their foolish lost cause.

Sadly, many of them will not listen, they will resist the truth and not wake up, and will remain trapped and thus will miss and waste their entire lives, all the way to the grave.

I feel sorry for them. I guess maybe thats why I continue to speak out, in hopes that even just one of them will wake up and come alive again, and free themselves from being enslaved and trapped under the blanket of authoriatarian mystic guru-cult dogma.



"Discussion is no remedy."


One of the many countless truths the regular addicted posters here have failed to grasp -- addicted to their own beliefs, adherents to their own egos, addicted to posting and debating and posturing, ad nauseum -- and all of it rendering hilarious the exaggerated claims of study, learnedness, and spiritual insight those herein profess.

I've never seen so many unaware people claim to be so very, very aware -- so loudly -- over and over and over again. You are truly a hilarious collection of fools. So long, and thanks for all the fish!


"Though all his life a fool associates with a wise person, he no more comprehends the Truth than a spoon tastes the flavor of the soup."
-- Dhammapada, 5:64

Here are some parting quotes from the anonymous coward who hides behind nameless anonymity, and who is cearly addicted to his/her own beliefs, an adherent to his/her own ego, and who is addicted to posting and debating and posturing:

"the many countless truths the regular addicted posters here have failed to grasp"

"exaggerated claims of study, learnedness, and spiritual insght"

"Though all his life a fool associates with a wise person..."

"You are truly a hilarious collection of fools."

"So long, and thanks..."

And thanks yo you for proving how pathetically shallow you are. And btw... good riddance.

Adios, Elephant

Rakesh said:

"How many initiates are the real followers of the tenets of Sant Mat? Practically very few."

-- Yes, and even the master does not follow the tenets of sant mat. In fact, he is one of the worst offenders. See here:

http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata

http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata/update.html

"You must know it well that life of a satsangi is not dull and insipid."

"Every time you fall, you get up and again start walking."

-- I thought it was meditating, not walking.

"Success rate is abysmally low."

-- You can say that again.

Tucson: why would you even think that I would go for BLANK instead of the elephant? It is ridiculous since my current pseudonym gives me as much anonymity as BLANK.
The many times I poked fun at Tao's character and nobility I did it using the name 'the elephant' [or in an earlier life JP :)]. I don't see why I would do otherwise. If there is a difference, you need to explain it to me because I have not got yet.

Moreover, everytime I wrote my sarcastic remarks, I was coherent :) and, as a personal preference, I would not waste an iota of effort on the Pali Canon ...

tAo,
we've had our differences in the past; but I can assure you that when it comes to this subject matter, we're on the same page.
It's been a few years now since I've packed my "bags" and left and has never looked back;not once!
Peace

OK, I'll buy that. Damn, I was hoping to set up shop as a psychic!...because the role as a quasi neo-advaitist RSSB basher is getting old. I think maybe I'll announce my departure so the annonymous tAo-basher can quote this line if I come back.

Dear tAo,
Your comments have been noted. I differ with you when you say that even masters do not follow the tenets.
I have gone through both the links you have provided. Regarding the link below, I must say that the facts are presented in the twisted manner.
My own younger brother is a regional secretary and my own brother -in -law who is a professor is a computer analyst on sewa in the RSSB. How each and every paisa of sewa collection is utilized is well known to him/me. Master and his family is not entitled even for a single paisa for personal expenditure from sewa collection. Everything is spent by the RSSB trust for his travelling etc., in case he goes for satsang. I will not comment more than this.

http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata/update.html

with regards,

GURINDER'S MONEY AND LAVISH EXPENSES:

ALL MONEY given to Gurinder's organization belongs to him - for his personal use. In England, he wanted a private soccer field built for himself - lighted for possible night use, of coursse. He also decided to adorn the entrance to his compound with an archway made of two huge crossed swords. All his "centers" around the world include a lavish mansion reserved for him alone.

The group in England reports that their yearly donation intake is about 1 million British pounds - about 2 million US Dollars. But, they have a terrible problem. They can't figure out how to spend the money. They built the soccer field and the sword arch - they built a lavish private house for Gurinder when he stops by - they built buildings and bought property all as he commanded - but, they still have half a million British pounds left [one million USD] and they just don't know what to do. Gurinder wil no doubt find a way to spend that as well.

Now, out of all the worshipers Gurinder has in the UK, wouldn't you guess that some of them might be having a bit of trouble making ends meet - that they could use some financial help.. Well, screw them! Gurinder only takes - he never gives back. All the money he gets is used for his own designs and persona assets.

In case you are wondering about the "hospitals" in India, Gurinder is registered with the Indian Government as a "charity". Indian law requires him to do some charitable things in order to keep his charity status. The hospitals are simply a way of meeting this legal requirement. The Indian government also requires hospitals to give abortions on demand to any knocked up Indian girl who wants to kill her kid. Gurinder's hospitals, of course, provide this service. I have been on a tour of the hospital at Beas. It looks impressive from the outside but, if you had anything seriously wrong, believe me you would not want to go there.

RS SECRECY:

First, I must point out that, when Gurinder Singh came to power, RS went through
a "day to night" transition. There is no comparison between RS as it was in the days when Charan Singh was master, and what is going on now.

All of the available RS literature is from this "past time". There are no tapes or videos available from the Gurinder Singh period - the present period - because all that has been prohibited.

Consequently, anyone who researches RS by using available literature is looking at "RS of the past" - a happy time of love and openness which died with Charan Singh and no longer exists.

The primary secrecy methods currently in use:

Events where Gurinder Singh is present-

1. Pictures prohibited

2. Taping prohibited

3. Taking notes prohibited

4. No electronic devices of any kind (not even a Furbie) or any hand carried item
because it could possibly conceal something which is prohibited.

5. You will be searched by guards to insure compliance.

6. Gurinder Singh does not wish there to be any tangible record of anything he
says or does. No one is allowed to talk about him to any news organization.

Events in general-

1. Pictures prohibited at all events: satsangs, bhandaras, etc.

2. Taping prohibited at all events: satsangs, bhandaras, etc.

3. Locations of satsangs are to be kept secret except for "general satsangs" which are published in the official newsletter. (there are many other satsangs, generally home satsangs, and their locations used to be published in the newsletters but Gurinder Singh has now prohibited this)

Recall of previously released material-

If anyone is found to possess material which was once permitted but is now prohibited (such as handwritten notes of statements by Gurinder Singh), the Representatives are charged with the duty of finding these written records and confiscating and destroying them.

Additional Info:

RS Propaganda: http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata/propaganda.htm

RS Dis-honesty: http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata/honest.htm

RS Slavery: http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata/flies.htm

RS Dictatorship & Feudalism: http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata/stripped.htm

Index: http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata


hello
hey man i think u haven't clearly understand to SANTMAT.
YOU PLZ VISIT THERE AGAIN DEFINITELY U WILL BE GRACED BY MY KIND GOD.
REGADS.

What is Sant Mat according to u? Gourav.

It stuck me late.

I wonder why a strong man like Charles Atlas is stuck in a cult which is for the mentally weak.

I love these cartoons. I have been in so many situations like these myself!

I want to throw something out there, curious to know if you all have had a similar experience...

You know how Sant Mat has these two concepts, Manmuk and Gurmuk (something like that). I think this is a big problem in Sant Mat. The idea is that a man with his eyes pointed towards God avoids "people of the world." I understand the practical idea behind this thought--if you hang with people who do behaviors you are trying not to do, you are only making it harder for yourself. BUT, this concepts divides humans into two categories. A satsangi then might run into two problems: 1) feeling superior to those around him who are "worldly," and 2) cutting him/herself off from her own humanity because "desires are to be avoided." I think I ran into the second problem after I got initiated. Suddenly I felt I should be a different person and stopped hanging out with my friends as much as I did before. I finally began to suffer because I realized that I need to be around friends to some extent for emotional sustenance, and actually, that there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Isn't Sant Mat supposed to be seeing god in you first so you can see it everywhere else? Than why divide humans into two categories?

Hi Adam

Sant mat never divides the people or anything. Only the people divides themselves. Sant mat and manmat are two ways to explain the attitude of the people. sant mant is also related to man (mind).We take an example Our mind always go for cheating to people, dishonesty with others. Sant mant is what, it is a attitude that we have to control our mind. What we want to do , we have to do with our hard work, honesty and loyality or we can say that under the laws of our country. Saints always unite the people. Santmant tells we have to love all. If we love someone from heart, we never cheat him/ her, we never do any wrongthing with him/ her. Terrorist kills innocent people. why he is killing just bcoz his mind telling him to do so. If killing people is not a crime then it is santmant. We know he is not doing right thing. So santmant is to do right thing socially,legally.

Sant mat ... divides the people ... cheating to people ... dishonesty with others ...

Sant mant ... is a attitude ... to control ... What we want to do ...

the people ... Santmant tells ... we have to ... cheat him/her ... do any wrongthing ... kills innocent people ... is not a crime ...

santmant ... not doing right ... legally.


Those who are not following any spiritual path have different reasons to not to follow!

Those who are following any spiritual path have only solitary reason to follow !!

Parveen, just about every philosophy, every religion, every moral code says it is good to love.

There's nothing special in Sant Mat about that. However, Sant Mat, like most religions, says it is better than other religions.

Doesn't this divide? How is it possible to claim you're uniting through love, and also divide through this claim of uniqueness?

Any philosophy/religion/school of thought or what have you, that stereotypes people into groups such as "marked souls" and "un-marked souls" is practicing spiritual apartheid and is not worth your devotion.

Santmat as far as I know, means the teachings of saints. Every religion of the world has come up after some saint or the other after that saint was no more in the human garb. It probably leads to think that the philosophy of the saints has remained the same by and large.

(imo) santmat is not a religion. It is a philosophy which has always remained here and criticized by the then a large group of people, who could eventually not benefit themselves from it. "In order to encourage ourselves, we encourage others" is true for the followers of particular school of thoughts either spiritual or mundane as well as for those who are against it.

Truly no saint has called himself or herself as a saint in his/her life time. Instead, he/ she has been an example of meekness and humility.

It is ludicrous to learn that santmat divides.

Santmat as far as I know, means the teachings of saints. Every religion of the world has come up after some saint or the other after that saint was no more in the human garb. It probably leads to think that the philosophy of the saints has remained the same by and large.

(imo) santmat is not a religion. It is a philosophy which has always remained here and criticized by the then a large group of people, who could eventually not benefit themselves from it. "In order to encourage ourselves, we encourage others" is true for the followers of particular school of thoughts either spiritual or mundane as well as for those who are against it.

Truly no saint has called himself or herself as a saint in his/her life time. Instead, he/ she has been an example of meekness and humility.

It is ludicrous to learn that santmat divides.

Rakesh wrote: "(1)Santmat as far as I know, means the teachings of saints. Every religion of the world has come up after some saint or the other after that saint was no more in the human garb.(2)It probably leads to think that the philosophy of the saints has remained the same by and large."

--Does the second statement really follow the second? Sant mat picks and chooses statements that are often ambiguous or taken out of context from other teachers, saints and scriptures. Sant Mat writers and saints then interpret them to fit the Sant Mat framework and then claim there is philosophical similarity. "Saint John, The Great Mystic" by Charan Singh comes to mind as a classic example of this.

Rakesh, you said you don't think Sant Mat is a religion. You decide from this definition from Wikipedia:

"A religion is a set of beliefs and practices often organized around supernatural(higher regions) and moral claims(four vows, diet, etc.), and often codified as prayer(meditation), ritual(simran, satsang), and religious law(karma). Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology (Granth Sahib, Kabir, etc.), as well as personal faith and mystic experience (belief in or experience of sound and light). The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices (simran and bhajan) related to communal faith (the sangat) and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction (satsang again and seva)."

Rakesh said: "It is a philosophy which has always remained here and criticized by the then a large group of people, who could eventually not benefit themselves from it."

--Say one hundred people buy a car with poor reliability because the Salesman says it works. Most of the people who buy this car will spend much of their time working on the car never getting anywhere.

They follow the instructions in the repair manual carefully, but still they can't get the car running. The Chief Mechanic says they aren't following the manual properly and to keep trying. After working on the car for years, a few get tired of it and begin to question the quality of the vehicle they bought and get another car or they decide to walk under their own power.

Others stick with the bad car mainly because they like working on cars (it gives them something to do) and because they stubbornly believe they can get it to run. Also, they are afraid to get rid of the bad car because they think they would have no chance at a car to drive since the bad car has no trade-in value and they don't know how to get a car that works.

There are rumors of owners of these cars who are lucky enough to get their cars to run and have no problems. The Chief Mechanic prohibits the drivers of good cars from demonstrating them to the other, less fortunate owners because he doesn't want them to feel bad and get frustrated and jealous. The owners of the bad cars believe this which gives them faith their cars will work one day even though they have never actually seen one the cars running properly. There may be a few of the cars that are all nice and shiney on the outside, but inside, the engine doesn't work. This further fools the owners of the bad cars because they can't see inside the engine compartment of the shiney cars. They think these are the cars that secretly really work.

You get my point.

Rakesh said: "Truly no saint has called himself or herself as a saint in his/her life time. Instead, he/ she has been an example of meekness and humility."

--Even if the master never once says he is a saint, by allowing others to treat him as a saint and to worship him he is implying that he is indeed a saint.

The master is not some idiot who allows his followers to put him up on the dais in front of one hundred thousand people without knowing why they are doing so. He knows they think he is God and he goes along with it. So, implicitly he is saying he is God without explicitly saying so.

I liked the car analogy tucson. Very nice!
I used to be a proud owner of one of these SM brand “cars” you're talking about...got it brand new; it sat in my "garage” for many years; zero mileages…I was never able to get the engine started, let alone drive it. Then, one day I just junked it. Now, these days I look at many “cars”; test-drive them, but so far I have not been able to find one that suits me. I always find issues for potential "recalls" in the future.

Tucson,

Likewise, I enjoyed the car analogy.

In addition, the 'followers placing the master on a dias' comment was excellant and to the point.

"Sant Mat" doesn't "mean anything." In fact, Sant Mat, by the virtue of its very teachings, shouldn't exist. In the beginning, all Sant Mat was, was a guy who sat down and meditated for like 17 years without eating very much. This man, Shiv Dyal Singh, had some students, to whom he taught a specific meditation technique, but there was no such thing as "Sant Mat." I think any time a Satsangi catches him/herself saying, "Sant Mat says..." he/she should stop in mid-sentence and realize that there is no belief system which IS Sant Mat.

The whole story of Saints coming to take people home is just a story unless one has actually experienced this...Otherwise it is just a framework, a belief system, like any other religion.

The great thing about a meditation practice is that it doesn't require belief, just practice. I suspect that many frustrated satsangis had too many fantasies in their heads about what would happen to them after meditating for 20 years. These fantasies may be the very thing stopping the perception of growth. Nowhere in the SM lit does it say that after 20 years you will experience light and sound. It says if you keep your attention fixed at the eye center with good concentration you will. This could happen at any time. Unless one has dones that, one can neither confirm nor deny that SM meditation "works" or doesn't.

Adam, I don't know how you can say that Sant Mat meditation doesn't require a belief system. Actually, it does.

Throughout the Sant Mat teachings, oral and written, faith/belief in the guru is considered the cornerstone of meditative practice. Without "guru bhakti" all else is fruitless.

Also, what if you keep your attention fixed at the eye center with good concentration, and you don't experience light and sound? Isn't this evidence that Sant Mat meditation doesn't work?

You seem to be saying that if meditation results in those experiences, this is proof that Sant Mat meditation works. But if the practitioner doesn't have the experiences, this proves nothing.

Huh? That isn't a scientific attitude, if the only valid result of an experiment is one that confirms your hypothesis. Many people have experienced a negative result with Sant Mat meditation. Those results are as valid as any positive ones (assuming they exist).

Let's face it. This is not the place to come for support in one's Sant Mat beliefs.

Adam said: "Nowhere in the SM lit does it say that after 20 years you will experience light and sound. It says if you keep your attention fixed at the eye center with good concentration you will."

--Correct, the time frame of 20 years is not given, but it does say it WILL happen with one caveat...your karmic burden may be so heavy that you may not see the light for as many as four lifetimes. That conveniently gets the current master off the hook.

Gee, now there's a real comfort. I can meditate until my ass grows around my seat cushion for three lifetimes and still have no perceptible spiritual experience. Until then I'll just have to have faith that there actually are subsequent lifetimes for this "soul" I'm supposed to have.

Adam says: "It says if you keep your attention fixed at the eye center with good concentration you will."

--Personally, I don't think satsangis are as bad at keeping their attention at the eye center as it is believed. I think with reasonable effort most people achieve pretty good concentration, at least for a little while during a 2 1/2 hr. meditation session even if they nod off for awile. If this method were reliable they should have some experience of inner sound and light.

There is always some esoteric excuse for the method not working for the diligent devotee..

*their karmic burden is heavy and it takes time to "burn" it off...

*the master knows best when it is time for inner experience...

*you may not be able to carry out your worldly duties if you are too enraptured by your meditation...

*progress could come at any time, just keep at it because it is like boring a hole through a mountain and you may be just inches away from breaking through to the light on the other side...

*you don't have beneficial sanskaras from previous lifetimes to help you in this life...

*the progress may not be apparent, but it is still there...

*the master is storing your wealth to bestow it at your death...

and the list goes on.

Come on Mr. Param Sant Sat Guru. Excuses, excuses. You talk the talk. Now walk the walk. I do my part, you do yours. Put up or shut up magic man.

Tucson,

I have noted your comments. I accept that the first two sentences of my above comment are wrongly placed.

Your words have spoken enough of your practical experience in the matter.

You need not to depend upon wikipedia to learn the subject, your car analogy is far above it. If you are happy with your present state of mind and knowledge, please go ahead.

Kindly go through the following link:
http://www.articlestree.com/education/the-joke-that-is-wikipedia-tx382559.html

Brian,
Here is my response to your comments:

"Adam, I don't know how you can say that Sant Mat meditation doesn't require a belief system. Actually, it does."

Actually it doesn't. I acknowledge the fact that many mental associations, such as the one's Tuscon thoroughly listed above (as in *the progress may not be apparent, but it is still there...) may come into play during meditation, but I still posit that one can sit down with a still mind, no mental associations, look into the darkness, repeat the names, and that this, without any feeling of faith in the master would be true sant mat meditation. I guess faith in the master is what gets the initiate to meditate in the first place. Not even necessarily faith that the master will take the disciple home, but faith that the meditation has worked for the master, and so can also work for the disciple.

"Also, what if you keep your attention fixed at the eye center with good concentration, and you don't experience light and sound? Isn't this evidence that Sant Mat meditation doesn't work?"
--No. we both know that...

You seem to be saying that if meditation results in those experiences, this is proof that Sant Mat meditation works. But if the practitioner doesn't have the experiences, this proves nothing.

Huh? That isn't a scientific attitude, if the only valid result of an experiment is one that confirms your hypothesis. Many people have experienced a negative result with Sant Mat meditation. Those results are as valid as any positive ones (assuming they exist).

Brian, what would be a negative result? And why did the practitioner experience the result? It may be a faulty car, but it may also be because of faulty assumptions on the part of the practitioner which will lead to disappointment.

I read a letter in a book once that said something to the effect that it may be impossible to complete the journey in a lifetime, but that the initiate may feel he is on the path home.

The only scientific evidence I am looking for in meditation is glimpses of love, a feeling of expansion, stillness, concentration, and being aware of subtler energies than I am with the senses.

If meditation gives one this feeling, from time to time, I say it is working. If it doesn't, I guess it is not.

Adam, the problem I have with your approach to "Sant Mat" is that it ends up being just an abstraction.

I mean, once you take away all the things you say can be taken away, you're left with something that could be called anything.

Whatever it is, just about every system of meditation has it, and does it. Not only that, every religion, every spiritual path, indeed every person, has feelings of love, connectedness, and so on that you describe.

So what you've done is reduce Sant Mat to something universal and then call it special. You may not feel that you're doing this, but by giving it a special name that deserves a special devotion -- that's specialness.

It's fine if you want to strip Sant Mat of beliefs, blind faith, dogmatism, theology and such. But what you have left isn't what you think it is.

I'd say that you've become "churchless," or at least are well on the way there, but you're still calling your churchlessness something else out of habit, or lack of attention to what you truly believe.

Also, you're correct that Sant Mat says that it may be impossible to complete the journey back to God in a lifetime. This is why Sant Mat should be considered a religion, because that's an eminently religious attitude.

Christians believe much the same thing. It isn't possible to be united with God/Jesus in this lifetime, but after death all will be revealed to the faithful.

In my first book I likened this to someone demanding a Nobel prize for having discovered a theory of everything, but saying "You'll only get the evidence for my discovery after you die, but give me the Nobel now."

He'd be laughed at. Yet, strangely, religious beliefs don't earn the same hilarity -- but they should. Genuine science views negative results of an experiment as providing as much knowledge as a positive result. Yet religions like Sant Mat say, "You didn't do the experiment right, because your karmas stand in the way." Or "You didn't have enough faith."

Those are obvious excuses, not explanations. Mysticism may be a science of sorts, but the results have to come now, not after death.

Excellent points Brian. I very much agree with you. This is the problem with Adam's rationalization of sant mat, as well as the definite religion aspect of sant mat.


tAo and Brian,
The times I have seen Baba Ji in the last few years, I have heard him say 1) that we rely too much on concepts, and 2) to be objective.

I takes this to mean, don't be dogmatic, and expect results to follow from actions taken.
My Sant Mat version is not an abstraction Brian, because I very much rely on having a master as an example. I used to sit zen, but was disheartened that there was noone in the zendo to whom I could really look up to as an advanced tracher (in my interpretation). I personally trust that meditation has worked for Baba Ji, but that is my interpretation, and I wouldn't force that on anyone.

My basic point here is that I agree with many of the attacks here on Sant Mat dogma, but I am unconvinced that Baba Ji himself would support that dogma. I rather think the contrary...
I know this is not tAo's or Brian's opinion, and that's fine.

Adam wrote: "..I am unconvinced that Baba Ji himself would support that dogma. I rather think the contrary..."

--This is what would trouble me if I were a satsangi these days. Gurinder is not supporting Sant Mat dogma and concepts? Either he is a Sant Mat guru or he isn't. In my day the teachings were said to be the same as taught by all true masters throughout history. Now Gurinder is not supporting these traditional beliefs? He is strict about no rennet in the cheese (new dogma), but he's not strict about some of the basic theological tenets of the path? Sant Mat has always been presented as the one and only true path. Gurinder doesn't sound like Sawan's, Jagat's, Charan's disciple to me. He's got his own thing going.

Satsangis...Who is this Gurinder Singh?...a new improved Param Sant Sat Guru? Are we getting rid of the old-fashioned carburetor Sant Mat for the modern computerized fuel-injected Sant Mat? Wait until the nuclear fusion version comes out!!

Who cares that he (GSD) says? Adam says that GSD says: "1) that we rely too much on concepts, and 2) to be objective".

What GSD SAYS actualy really means little or nothing. Its just words. Also, as the leader of RS, he is in fact very dogmatic. As long as he is the leader of RS, he cannot avoid that. So whatever he may SAY or try to appear or pretend, is really just bullshit.

Adam said: "My Sant Mat version is..."

-- Sant mat is not about YOUR OWN VERSION. Either you believe and you follow the teachings as they are presented in the books, or you don't. You cannot have YOUR VERSION. That is not sant mat. And it does not matter what GSD says.

Adam siad: "I very much rely on having a master as an example."

-- An example of what? How exactly is GSD an "example" for you?

Adam said: "I personally trust that meditation has worked for Baba Ji".

-- How do you know that? You don't know that at all. So why do you "trust" when in fact you know nothing about your so-called "Baba Ji", and especially nothing about his meditation. How do you even know that he mediates, much less that his meditation has "worked"?

You say you "trust", but you really don't know anything. So your so-called "trust" is blind. Therefore, you are just as full of blind unfounded beliefs and presumptions as any other gullible and unquestioning RS cult believer.

Adam said: "My basic point here is that ... I am unconvinced that Baba Ji himself would support that dogma."

-- As the leader of RS, he necessariy supports ALL the RS dogma. So what "dogma" exactly do you think that he does not support? I'd really like to know. So do please specify.


Adam,

Why are you a follower of Gurinder?

What little I know of Santmat is that there are numerous gurus out there. It would appear that when a Master passes on, several individuals seem to step up and proclaim that they are the new true Master.

How have you determined which one is the true perfect Master?

I am not attacking you, the succession issue, I find interesting.

Roger

All right Tuscon, tAo, and Roger:

First Tucson:

"--This is what would trouble me if I were a satsangi these days. Gurinder is not supporting Sant Mat dogma and concepts? Either he is a Sant Mat guru or he isn't."

Let me communicate as clearly as possible here. What I mean by "Sant Mat dogma" is all of the storytelling and gossip around Sant Mat that people come, by one way or another, to believe. To me, SM dogma is different from the core teachings. I believe that GS supports the same core teachings that have always been Sant Mat, i.e. a meditation practice and initiation by a PLM and lifestyle vows so as to keep karmas to a minimum. The rennet thing is not a vow, it's a slightly different interpretation of vegetarianism. As the awareness about cheese processing rose, a different interpretation arose. But the vow has remained the same, to eat vegetarian. Charan Singh himself wrote that no master could condone the intake of animal products, even in medication, so I wonder if he would allow rennet, if he were asked point plank about it.

Now tAo:
you write "-- Sant mat is not about YOUR OWN VERSION" in reaction to the excerpt you found in my post which says:
"My Sant Mat version is..."
If you would have read more carefully, you would have noticed that I fully wrote:
"My Sant Mat version is not an abstraction Brian"
which was a response to Brian talking about my "approach" to Sant Mat.
By the way, everyone has their own approach to everything, so cut the shit, because you know that.
You're right that I don't know anything for sure...but just to check, haven't you recommended chanting "Hare Krishna?" If so, how are you so sure that works? Why would you be so confident to recommend it to others?

Now Roger,

I am a follower of Gurinder becuase I decided to be after researching Sant Mat and seeing his satsangs a number of time. You ask if I have determined if he is "perfect master". The answer is no, I haven't. I have determined that I would like to give this form of meditation a try, and that as I said above, I believe, based on the feeling of being in Gurinder's presence, that meditation has worked for him.

I make decisions based on intuition, intellect, and feeling, like I suspect the rest of you do.

Adam said: "Charan Singh himself wrote that no master could condone the intake of animal products, even in medication, so I wonder if he would allow rennet, if he were asked point plank about it."

--I was present when he was asked about it, and he said that we have to live in this world and not be fanatics, so cheese with rennet is OK. You are correct that he did not approve of medications containing animal products such as glandular extracts, etc. He said there were many alternatives to these substances, but in life or death emergencies, not to worry and follow the doctor's advice, even if it meant taking something with animal essence, extract, etc. in it.

Adam said: "I believe, based on the feeling of being in Gurinder's presence, that meditation has worked for him."

--I think what you are experiencing is a reflection of what is innate within your own being. It is the focus that makes you aware of this. Try focusing on a dog or a bum in the park. Immerse yourself in that moment and you may find the identical feeling you experience with GSD.

Adam said: "I make decisions based on intuition, intellect, and feeling, like I suspect the rest of you do."

--And for this reason I think, for whatever that's worth, you should go with your feelings and let this interest in Sant Mat meditation play out. Despite other opinions that your reasoning is inconsistent, I hear you being fairly honest with yourself and this is the right thing for you at this time. Give it your best shot and see what happens.

Adam wrote: "My Sant Mat version...", or more specifically "My Sant Mat version is not an abstraction Brian".

Adam also wrote: "my "approach" to Sant Mat", and "everyone has their own approach ... so cut the shit"

-- Adam has clearly stated that he is talking about his own "version" and his own "approach". But there is no such thing as your own "version" in sant mat or radha soami mat. There is no "my version" or "my approach". Either you follow the path as it is given and taught, or you don't. There are no individual variations, versions or approaches. Therfore Adam is obviously and admittedly fabricating an abstract sant mat of his own design, which is not the sant mat that is taught by the standard sant mat teachings. There are no other "versions". Either one follows the RS teaching as it has been given, or not. To make up one's own version or approach, is not what sant and RS mat teaches. Period.

That all being said, I would like to make it clear that I myself do not follow or promote, and no longer practice, sant mat.

Adam said: "but just to check, haven't you recommended chanting "Hare Krishna? If so, how are you so sure that works? Why would you be so confident to recommend it to others?"

-- Fyi, I do not do "chanting Hare Krishna", I do not say that it "works", I am not "confident" in Hare Krishna, and I do not "recommend it to others". Period. I am not involved in Hare Krishna in any way whatsoever.

Furthermore, the path of so-called Hare Krishna has nothing to do with the issue of Adam contriving and practicing his own personal "version" of sant mat.

Adam also said to Tucson: "Charan Singh himself wrote that no master could condone the intake of animal products, even in medication"

-- Charan Singh cannot and does not speak for all "masters". And as a matter of fact, Charan Singh happens to be quite wrong about that. Charan Singh does not know what he is talking about. There are in fact other very enlightened masters who do eat meat and who do "condone the intake of animal products".

Adam also said to Roger: "I believe, based on the feeling of being in Gurinder's presence, that meditation has worked for him."

-- You only "believe", but you do not know. There is no way that you can know that meditation has "worked" for GSD. Even if he tells you so.

And what exactly do you mean when you say "worked" in relation to the sant mat meditation? It is important that you explain what you mean by this.

Please do answer this simple question, instead of again evading answering my questions like you have done previously. I have answered all of in your questions. But in your case, the more you continue to evade answering other people's questions, the less and less credibiity you will have. And thus far, your evasion and vagueness in answering my previous questions is just like all the other typical guru-cult believers and promoters of blind faith in the santmat/RS gurus and dogma that visit this forum.

Adam,
tAo is correct, in my opinion, that there is no "version" of Sant Mat. To reiterate what he said: There is just Sant Mat period. You are either practicing the path as it is taught or you are not. And if you are not, you are not a practitioner of Sant Mat but rather Adam Mat. This is fine, but face this fact honestly.

tAo, I have to take issue with you about your position regarding chanting Hare Krsna. You have recommended doing so a number of times in this forum. You also have said that this chant is effective in aligning with Krsna Consciousness. I am surprised you deny this. However, it is true I have never heard you say that you personally do the Hare Krsna chant, and you have stated before that you are not involved with the "Hare Krsna" movement.

tAo, you aske me to answer the following question:

And what exactly do you mean when you say "worked" in relation to the sant mat meditation? It is important that you explain what you mean by this.

I thought I had answered this when I explained that in the presence of GSD I had a certain "feeling," but perhaps that it too vague, so let me unpack that a little.

I am a composer, and like in spirituality, young composers often look for an advanced composer to study with. Whom to study with is a big decision because the young composer will imbibe qualities of the style, apprach, and outlook of the teacher. When looking for a teacher, I listen to their music, and what they have to say, and basically wait for a certain Rightness to settle in. All I can say is that there is a feeling of recognition of "yes, this is right for me." Perhaps this is still too vague for you, but I have had the same feeling around GSD of "yes, I want look out through his eyes." I say meditation has "worked" because I believe the place he is looking from feels different from the place I am looking from. Around him, my perception changes to a perception I wish to prolong, so I therefore assume meditation is the way to practice that perception.

Tuscon, I think you are insighful when you say that it is my own presence that I am feeling, but might it be that certain individuals have the intensity of presence to sort of make our presence flame momentarily brighter in our own perception? Like two candles momentarily merging?

Adam said: "...Like two candles momentarily merging?"

--Yes. Many years ago my landlord at the time and I were sitting across from each other. He was an ex-IRS auditor-turned Rajneesh follower who had just returned from their Oregon ashram. I was a commodity futures trader/satsangi doing regular meditation.

We were sitting across from each other and entered a "space" where no words needed to be said. Our individualities merged into each other and then vanished into a peaceful presence of profound undifferentiated awareness. Were either of us Param Sant Sat Gurus? No, we were much more and less than that.

Adam,

I am sorry but you have no t answered my question. I asked you "what exactly do you mean when you say "worked" in relation to the sant mat meditation?" Your answer had nothing to do with how you are able to know for sure whether meditation HAS worked for GSD, and HOW exactly has meditation "worked" for GSD.

You say "in the presence of GSD I had a certain 'feeling'". But that does not indicate whether or not, or how, meditation has actually and specifically "worked" for someone else such as GSD.

Then you go on to give a story about being a music composer, and then saying (I assume about meditation and GSD): "yes, this is right for me." That again does NOT answer the question of HOW has meditation actually "worked" for GSD.

Then you say: "yes, I want look out through his eyes. I say meditation has "worked" because I believe the place he is looking from feels different from the place I am looking from." Again, this is merely a feeling of yours, and does not specifically show exactly why meditation has in fact worked for GSD.

You then say: "Around him, my perception changes to a perception I wish to prolong, so I therefore assume meditation is the way to practice that perception."

That is simply and only YOUR OWN "perception" or feeling, and it has nothing to do with what GSD himself has actually achieved through meditation, if anything. Therfore, you have proven nothing, nor answered the question as to HOW exactly has meditationn WORKED for GSD himself. You have given no indication or information which shows that meditation has done anything for GSD. Nor have you answered as to what YOU mean by "worked" in general, or in the case of GSD. You have merely related some vague feelings or altered perception that YOU had and that you think was due to being in his presence. That says NOTHING about what meditation has or has not done for GSD himself (assuming that he meditates at all).

I simply asked you WHAT specifically do you mean by "worked", and aso HOW do you know that meditation has in fact "worked" for GSD? But you have beating around the bush. You have not answered directly and specifically. Just YOUR mere FEELINGS are not a sufficient answer regarding the nature and the results of GSD's own meditation.


tAo,
You are absolutely right that I cannot prove anything about meditation working for GSD.

That's the whole point Adam, the point that Brian and myself and others have been stressing for so long... that Santmat/RS is entirely based upon blind-faith. Period.

So for myself, I have chosen long ago to NOT live my life based upon such wishful fantasies, unsubstantiated hopes, and myths or illusions... and I would also encourage you to do the same.


Adam,

Thanks for your honest and sincere comments.

Did you experience any Sounds or Visions at your initiation into Sant Mat?

I'm just curious, no big deal.

Roger

Hi Roger,
why do you want to know?

Adam,

Thanks for your reply.

I really do not have a need to know any of your business. I think you mentioned that your meditations, some how, helped your work as a Composer. I was interested in learning more about this relationship. Its no big deal.

Roger

If you don't know the facts you should not make any comments or criticise any one else. Being a satsangi has enlightened my life in every way. It has made me a better human being. My advice to you lot is to become human beings first and then you may be able to feel what I have. Sant mat is about being happy and laughing our way back to SachKand.

The website http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata has shifted because of the closure of geocities. Does anyone have the address of the new website? I have seen it put up with another free website host, but fail to remember the name despite having racked my brains for weeks....

Chani, I don't have the answer to your question. I've emailed somebody who might know where that website went. If I learn anything, I'll leave another comment.

The cartoons portray that you are a failed soul. You obviously found the path and the restrictions too much for you. You chose to be a loser that is fine but please don't play the toddler game and put the blame on the path. Admit that you are a failure. The posts on the web clearly indicate you obviously are not able to come to terms with failing therfore feel the need to publish so much rublish on the web site, you poor loser. Reading through your comments makes me pitty you, all l can say is that you have got some serious issues, maybe mental health issues?? I have been a satsangi for many years and have met many enlightened souls but they don't talk!! Only an empty vessel makes noise (like you & me) when a vessel is full it no longer makes noise!! Due to my profession I have neglected my meditation but am not void of the spiritual experiences I have had and look forward to putting in my efforts in future. And if I fail I will keep trying, not fail and become a failure like you!!! May Master forgive your ignorance.

Aj, thank you for your amateur psychoanalysis. You might apply your skills to yourself one day. Can you see any indication of an extreme judgmentalism and egocentricity in your comment?

(Hint: pay particular attention to "you are a failed soul," "you chose to be a loser," and "you have got some serious issues.")

I don't know why I started reading this tread from the beginning - but I did.

I am trying to follow this personal path (RSSB), I've (kind-of) tried other paths and this one seems to be the one for me -
I will say for ME it's definitely not easy.

Many times, I've thought it would have been easier to take the Blue Pill (Matrix) - as I took the Red one and I’m still confused.

I started Wing Tsun Kung Fu not long ago and our Si Fu (master) who is unbelievable said the Wing Tsun path is a path of perfection - of being the best Martial Artist YOU can be - this is an endless task of practice and improvement as it’s only as good the practioner is.

Don’t even know why I wrote the above, it just seemed the right thing to do.

But I do understand the frustration with the path and at these times I wish I didn’t take any pill (Red or Blue), then other times for ME, I'm so glad I have this Crutch/Support/Cult/Religion/Madness - as it helps take my fears away! By focusing my thoughts on something positive and practical instead!
Last Comment - our Si Fu recently told us that when someone is confronted/attacked usually by an aggressive person: we natural feel fear or will flinch/get out of the way etc. - Wing Tsun trains us to focus on positive action/reaction instead! Same principle.

So Glad I've got RSSB(spiritual) and Wing Tsun(Physical) in my life.....

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