Playing fair with words

Yesterday I got some advice from a commenter on a post to "be silent." I responded right away, because this is one of my favorite subjects – playing fair with words.

Zion, I always find it interesting when someone, like you, advises that silence is the best policy -- and posts a public comment using many words.

If I should be silent, shouldn't you? Or do you know me better than I know myself? And does your advice only apply to me, or also to yourself?

…I'm curious about this: how do you know that "those who know always keep quiet." Does this mean that someone who never speaks or writes anything "knows"? You just wrote something. Apparently this means that you don't know.

So how is it possible that you can offer such contradictory advice? If you knew, you would keep quiet. Since you didn't, I have to assume that you don't know.

If you are to be believed, every single holy book and every single holy person who ever uttered a word, or taught in some other communicative fashion, doesn't know. I find this easy to believe, by the way -- that people who claim to know about higher realities, really don't.

But again, when you undercut everyone else who speaks, your own speaking is cut away also. Anyway, thanks for the advice. As you can see, I'm not taking it.

I don't mind people telling me what I should do. If I did, I wouldn't have been able to stay married for 36 of my 59 years, that's for sure.

My wife frequently tells me I should be neater and cleaner around the house. She's neat and clean, so her actions match her advice. That's consonant with the Golden Rule approach to morality (mentioned here).

But when someone uses thoughts to tell me "you think too much," or words to tell me "be silent," my bullshit detector goes off.

Start with yourself, dude is my immediate response.

The post that stimulated the "be silent" comment was about RSSB books. So it's appropriate to use some Radha Soami Satsang Beas publications as another example of how words are used unfairly.

A number of RSSB books relate Christianity to Sant Mat, which is the foundation of RSSB teachings. I won't go into the nature of these relations here, because my concern is with how the Bible is used to support the RSSB contention that Jesus basically was a Sant Mat "guru."

On the one hand, RSSB authors (including the guru who initiated me, Charan Singh) correctly note that the words in the Bible have been messed around with since the New Testament was written.

And that these writings were composed a long time after Jesus lived. So we don't have a dependable record of what Jesus said.

Yet after saying this, somehow these same authors feel justified in explaining the genuine message of the Gospels, using quotations from the Bible to support the notion that Jesus was a vegetarian, meditating mystic who initiated disciples into an inner path of light and sound that leads to higher spiritual realms.

Even when I was a fervent RSSB devotee, I'd read this stuff and think, huh?

How could it be that some words in the Bible can't be trusted when they support a traditional view of Christianity, but other words can be used to argue that Sant Mat and Jesus' teachings are essentially identical?

I'm up with wordlessness, believe me. I spend a good share of my day doing my best to keep my psyche as word-free as possible.

Other times, like now, I open the gate to my word animals and let them run free. Words are what they are, neither good or bad. How we use them – that's the question.

Fairly. That's part of the answer. We shouldn't expect other people to adhere to a word standard that's different from our own.

A parent who screams to a child, "You're too loud!" doesn't have much credibility. Nor does someone who writes, "we should keep our thoughts to ourselves."

Comments

[Deepak Kamat]

In all fairness, it must be said that it is tough for satsangis to change. Because satsangis are said to have surrendered their objectivity at the time of initiation.

For most of the satsangis, those who have left RSSB are in the domain of Kal and are to be considered sympathetically. (I am referring to Charan Singh's line). Most satsangis consider ex-satsangis as Yoga Brasthas (the fallen Yogis).

So if you talk to satsangis and tell them that you are no longer following sant mat, they will either avoid you or they will try to persuade or try to re-sell the stale old RS dogma in a sugar coated manner.

Most of all, satsangis have a superiority complex (us vs them mentality) and they dramatise with the outer world. Most satsangis are experts in double talk. They have one line reserved for RSSB and the other reserved for the world in Kal's domain.

I know satsangis who don't mind cheating the world as they say they are kal's property and are akin to animals. In fact, the RSSB dogma is worse than racism. Those who are not satsangis are to be treated like animals (not human beings).

[Deepak Kamat]

Who is the author of Radha Soami Beas secret history on the Internet?

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

Is it ghost written by Dr. David Lane? The author's name is not mentioned. It is better if it were mentioned so that we can know about the author too. A signed book is better than an unsigned one, anyday.

[Jake Harris]

what a schmuck... to but it bluntly... i have read your post for little over 5 months and there has been much that you have said that i dont agree with. i mean coming from a Christian among other spiritual dogmatic backgrounds or junk just words background.. do as i say not as i do...type people the same people who say your gonna burn in hell for sin or what not. i think all those people are fouls and have no place telling me were my soul is gonna end up. i mean come on if there is a god and i think there is some form of higher being other than self. then i think he would be the last to condemn a mere human to a eternity of hell... and i agree the bible has been edited for benefit. i mean benefit of religions.. its like they want to keep the higher truth from us so that we follow there way instead of discovering our own. i mean anyone who says this is the way and there is no other way are nothing but fools. like any human is capitable of knowing whats really going on in this universe. thats part of the reason i consider myself a Taoist due to the fact that we will never truly know. and when we do discover the answer it only last long enough for one to say there it is... then is slips away. for we are not meant to know. so for the people like the ones that posted that comment and for the ones that say this is the way and there is no other... then good go about your way i hope yall find the higher truth. there negativity will prevail in there lives and they will never grow past what they think they know. its like my mom told me long ago if cant say anything nice then dont say it at all.. i love this website and it is a great source for my daily inspiration so keep on keeping on my brother for time is all we really have and it will reveal all.

-peace

[Bob]

Deepak wrote:

"Those who are not satsangis are to be treated like animals (not human beings".

Deepak, as much as I disagree with much of the RS trip, I certainly don't agree with your statement above. Although I have been disassociated from RS life for 8 years, I still have many satsangis friends that treat me with love and respect.

Perhaps it could be argued that satsangis are treated worse than ex-satsangis when considering seva projects, dependency on the guru, an excessive and often fruitless meditation pratice, freaking out over a glass of wine or an egg in a birthday cake, and other trips that are part of the RS teachings.

Bob

[Deepak Kamat]

Bob, perhaps, there are several categories of satsangis as much as there are several categories of human beings. Even I have come across compassionate satsangis. However, by and large, satsangis who stick to RS dogma are intolerant about non-satsangis. They feel that they are the unmarked (unlucky) souls who are not in favour of the Great RS God.

Taking your own statements, I can also make out a case for Osama bin Laden. I have Muslim friends who are quite compassionate. Osama Bin Laden is also a Muslim. That makes Laden a compassionate creature. Is this what you want to say.

Drop that shoddy logic. Look at the ideology in the face. Even the RS ideology smacks of jehad, although the RS jehad is mental and quite harmless to the outside world, it can be devestating emotionally.

I know it because I have borne the brunt of this emotional apartheid before becoming a satsangi.

[Bob]

Deepak:

From my own personal experience, I have yet to meet a satsangi who is intolerant of non-satsangis.

Sure, they may feel fortunate to be initiated but "intolerant of non-satsangis"....that has not been my experience with the many satsangis I know in the US. Maybe it is different where you live.

To my knowledge, there is nothing in the RS theology or literature that encourages intolerance of people who are not satsangis.

Your logic about Bin Laden doesn't make sense.

Bob

[tucson]

Jake Harris wrote: "...like any human is capitable of knowing whats really going on in this universe. thats part of the reason i consider myself a Taoist due to the fact that we will never truly know. and when we do discover the answer it only last long enough for one to say there it is...then is slips away..."

--For me that's just how it is. I don't know anything, but there are those times when the "slate is wiped clean", maybe just for a moment, and it becomes perfectly clear... "Aha!" and then I go about my business. It's not that we can't truly know, it's just that to clearly see, the one that would know is completely absent. There is a memory of this seeing, but as the one who remembers, I can never be that clear seeing. It cannot be captured by anyone because it is not any 'thing' that can be objectivised. So, as me, I am clueless.

Then Jake said: "..for we are not meant to know."

I don't think there is anything to "intend" for us to be any way in particular. It's just that in order to "know" no one can be present. It is the "One without a second" which to me means It is perceived in a timeless moment of no this and no that, or as I often say, no subject and no object.

To remain in the undifferentiated state, as I call it, would be difficult because there is the appearance of the need to manage our lives. We have to feed ourselves, bathe, earn a living, etc. This requires the apparent presence of a someone to carry out these acts. Otherwise, we would require a caretaker like we were babies, who at least initially, are probably in the undifferentiated state until we learn the process of 'me subject, that object'.

"It" is in the space between the thoughts when we are present as just This.

At times, it appears that some people are able to "capture" this moment and it becomes a part of their daily functioning, although they rarely function in any way we would call "usual". Ramana Maharshi comes to mind who spent much of his life lying on a couch not saying much, or Ramakrishna who sat for days in a garbage dump. Then there was the guru of Swami Muktananda, whose name escapes me, who also spent much of his life lying on a couch. Occasionally he would pipe up and say something unintelligible or curse and hurl fruit at a devotee. Maybe there was wisdom in his actions or maybe he was nuts. I don't know. I find it interesting that most of these "realized beings" wear very little clothing, usually just a loincloth. This is partly because it is hot in India, but also I don't think they are in a frame of mind to give a damn about their appearance or modesty. I think one of their followers hands them a loincloth and they somehow summon up enough self consciousnes to put it on.

[tAo]

After reading all the above comments, I must agree with Deepak whom I feel is basically correct about the matter of the negative attitude of satsangis towards non-satsangis and especially towards EX-satsangis.

This has been proven and born out in my personal experience with satsangis during the past 25 years, both during the time when I was associating with the RS sangat, and also after I had departed from all participation and association with RS and became what is now referred to as an "Ex-satsangi". And this was true not only in India, but especially more in the USA. I can't how they are in Europe or the UK. But in the US, RS satsangis by and large have an extremely poor and negative attitude and behavior towards Ex-satsangis. That is my experience regarding not just a few, but a great many of them.

So contrary to Bob's obviously limited experience, I have found that a great majority of the RS satsangis in the USA have had (in my experience) the worst attitude and behavior by far. They are intolerant of other satsangis, and they are extremely intolerant, negative, and disdainful towards EX-satsangis ike myself.

In my experience, these satsangis actually treat non-satsangis (regular people who are not particularly or necessarily spiritual) much better than they treat the Ex-satsangis who are their fellow initiates. So Bob is definitely wrong and Deepak is right when Deepak says that these either go out of their way avoid EX-ers, or else they treat EX-ers with disdain, judgement, and sometimes even meanness and rudeness.

I feel that they despise Ex-satsangis because someone who was once "in the fold" and has since left is considered to be a threat to the integrity of their RS belief system, and they also consider them as being under the domain of Kal and thus agents of Kal. I think that this is basically why these (self-righteous bastards) avoid any and all significant degree of any kind of close personal contact with Ex-satsangis.

They also have been seen and known to actually commit bad actions towards Ex-satsangis such as spread false derogatory rumors, and make false accusations and lies about them, and threaten them physically. So these RS satsangis are serious BAD news for a number of reasons.

I even have a satsangi couple living less than two blocks away from my house in my town, and they have been some of the worst ever. And we are probaly the only other vegetarians in the entire town. And whats worse, the woman satsangi is the secretary of the local sangat! She despises us and goes out of her way to be rude to us because we are initiates but do not go to satsang and have not for more than a decade, and our spirituality is quite broad and she knows it. To put bluntly, she is a nasty old bitch. And she is only one out of several dozens that I have experienced since I first became affiliated with RS.

Here is some more: I have been to many different satsangs at many different local sangats around the US during the past 25 years. Almost every one of them have had many satsangis in them that have been extremely judgemental, un-friendly, un-brotherly and un-sisterly, and have shown a very poor and negative attitude towards non-satsangis and even towards other initiated satsangis who exactly don't fit their mold.
I also have experienced this same foul judgemental attitude and disdain from western satsangis towards other western satsangis while at the Dera and especially within the Dera's old main western Guest House compound!

This negative attitude and disdain has been true not just with a mere few satsangis, but with several dozens of them that I have encountered over the period of the past 18 years since I basically left any formal association with the RS path and group.

Also as Deepak has rightfully said: "satsangis have a superiority complex (us vs them mentality) and they dramatise with the outer world" There is definitely a very self-righteous attitude and an expressed feeling that they (satsangis) are special, marked, and that they are spiritually better (elite) than everyone else in the world. But in reality they are total hypocrites because they do not even treat their own with respect. So actually they do treat Ex-satsangis even worse than animals. And their vegetarianism is also hypocrisy because they nit-pick over eating a tiny bit of eggs and such, yet they treat other fellow initiates like garbage!

Bob wrote:

"Although I have been disassociated from RS life for 8 years, I still have many satsangis friends that treat me with love and respect."

-- Bob, that may be your experience, but it is far from my own experience. My own conclusions come from numerous encounters with dozens if not hundreds of satsangis over a 25 year period. Just becuse you have a few old friends that still trat you well because you were friends with them befor you left RS, does not mean that the majority are the same way.

"Perhaps it could be argued that satsangis are treated worse than ex-satsangis when considering seva projects...an excessive and often fruitless meditation pratice...."

-- Bob, that's absurd nonsense. If people are treated bad, then they should deal with it. If they remain in an abusive situation like RS, then it is their own fault. Moreover, the point here is how satsangis treat non-satsangis and especially Ex-satsangis. And by and large, many satsangis threat Ex-ers like shit. Thats a fact that has been reported by far too many to ignore. You can ignore it or evade it if you like, but its still a fact. Thats not to say that there are some satsangis who are not that way, but far too many are, and the tendency to be that way is definitely fostered by the cult and its dogma, and by the mind-pset of other intolerant and judgemental satsangis.

"From my own personal experience, I have yet to meet a satsangi who is intolerant of non-satsangis."

-- Bob, well then I don't know where you have been hiding, but that has not been the case for me and many other Ex-ers around the country and the world that I have spoken to.

"Sure, they may feel fortunate to be initiated but "intolerant of non-satsangis"....that has not been my experience with the many satsangis I know in the US."

-- Bob, the US satsangis have been the very worst as far as that goes. Almost every sangat and bandhara that I have been to has had and shown this problem: northern california, santa rosa, marin county, santa cruz, southern california, arizona, florida, miami, tampa/st. petersburg, washington dc, maryland, virginia, pennsylvania, new york. And then there are the times that I was at the Dera, and most of the American satsangis were bad there too.

"Maybe it is different where you live."

-- Yes it is different in my area, but it also has been a problem in many different places, not just where I am now.

"To my knowledge, there is nothing in the RS theology or literature that encourages intolerance of people who are not satsangis."

-- Then Bob, you have simply NOT read Sar Bachan. Sar Bachan derides all other spiriual persuasions. Shiv Dayal Singh in Sar Bachan clearly criticises and frowns upon yogis, jnanis, munis, vaishanava bhaktas, shaivites, buddhists, and so on. And RS theology and dogma and literature in general is full of intimations that non-satsangis are on a lower plane, under the dominion of Kal, and will not escape samsara and chaurasi. This kind of cultic fear-mongering and elitism is bullshit. And you don't know what you are talking about. Go back and study RS literature if you somehow don't see this. RS dogma does indeed foster this kind of attitude. Thats why so many satsangis reflect it.

[Bob]

Tao:

After reading your post, I decided to look up the word intolerant in the dictionary.

It read, "not tolerating beliefs, opinions, usages, manners, etc. different from one's own, as in religious or political matters."

Based on that definition, I would have to agree with you and Deepak, that Sant Mat does encourage an intolerant attitude among members by creating a egotistical sense of spiritual "superiority".

In retrospect, this caused me a great deal of pain as a satsangi because I felt alienated from many friends who were not satsangis and my own flesh and blood family.

Yet, and I need to say this; I am not willing to define and label all satsangis as intolerant. I know many that aren't and like you said, many are.

And, yes, I am aware that RS literature, especially from Sar Barchan, Path of the Masters, Puri's Vol.2, etc. does compare Shabd Yoga to other traditions, and as you say, is very elitist and superior...no argument there.

Bob

[tucson]

I would have to agree with Tao in general, but I seem to have come across more exceptions to the "intolerance of ex-satsangis" rule.

I am in contact now with only a handful of satsangis. Interestingly, a couple of them are among my closer friends. They know how I feel about RSSB, and that is accepted or at least tolerated. We just don't discuss the subject much and relate in other ways we have in common. I think they feel I have been led astray by heavy karma and one day will return because the master promises all initiates will one day, in this life or the next, be returned to their eternal home in the ineffable regions of sound and light where "dweeps" (islands) are inhabited by "hansas" (pure souls) enjoying the incomprehensible bliss of communion with the ambrosial nectar of celestial harmonies.

What idiot would turn that down?

On the other hand, there are other satsangis who are superficially polite, but I sense a wariness and unease about them that wasn't there when I was active in the "club". What is most distasteful are the spiritual snobs who by virtue of their self-perceived piety on the one and only path to liberation, view others who appear not to posess such qualities as inferior and worthy of disdain.

Ex-ers fall into a special category having been among the chosen (marked) elite. To a devoted satsangi leaving the path is unthinkable, so there must be something especially wrong with someone who "knowing the true path", decides to leave it.

As far as non-satsangis are concerned, they are simply viewed by satsangis as ignorant or unfortunate members of Kal's domain to be pitied for their karma to wander eternally on the wheel of birth and death, pleasure and pain. They are accepted as a part of this illusory, filthy life (Sawan Singh referred to this world as a latrine in "Spiritual Gems") sometimes as friends or family, but often as relationships of karmic necessity only.

Association with "manmukhs" or worldly people is discouraged in much of the RSSB literature as Tao correctly pointed out. This is an unfortunate and isolating situation for some satsangis who take it to heart. I know that I avoided many opportunties because of having this in mind. The Sar Bachan is probably the foundational book of RSSB and the master-author is in no uncertain terms against any unnecessary association with non-satsangis as a bad and downward pulling influence.

So, to sum it up, I would say this varies from one person's experience to another's, but no doubt a prejudice exists against ex-ers and non-satsangis to varying degrees in the RSSB community.

[Bob]

This interaction has been very good for me. I have had to sit back and do some heartful reflection.

Like you Tuscon, I pretty much avoid discussing RS with the satsangis we know. There have been exceptions, all of which were VERY unrewarding.

Interestingly, I have a friend I've known for over 30 years. He was the person that introduced me to Eastern spirituality back when I was in college. Eventually, I came to Sant Mat through him.

We've kept in touch over the years and he knows that I no longer believe in the RS duality theology. However, he has yet (and it's been nearly 9 years since I departed ways with RS) to ask me why I left the path. I think Tao may be right...that to do so may threaten the so-called integrity of his RS belief system.

At times during our phone conversations, he'll say the Master did this or the Master did that. I just my eyebrows and leave it at that.

So, as I think more about this topic, I realize that there is subtle yet distinct wall the exists between me and the satsangis I know. There is a friendship and openness....but up to a certain point.

Bob

[Deepak Kamat]

Bob,

The wall may be subtle or gross. Nevertheless it is there. The only difference between Jehadi and Satsangi is that : jehadis get physical, satsangis don't (because of the four vows). Satsangis feel that their RS God will let Kal to do the dirty work of punishing the offenders. Jehadis do the dirty work themselves.
The Osama bin Laden example holds good.

[tucson]

Like Bob, I also have noticed that my satsangi friends do not seem to want to discuss Sant Mat in much detail with me. I don't think anyone likes to confront the validity of their foundational beliefs, especially when deep down they know they are based on blind faith alone. This is a big risk..."What if I decide he's right, then what do I do?"

Also, who wants to argue? They would say they believe in this path and that's that, leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. So, we respectfully (warily) keep our distance.

On the other hand, while I am willing to be quite frank here, I really don't enjoy upsetting people. Sometimes shaking people to their senses is the right thing to do, but I don't know if I want to be the catalyst that seemingly casts their boat adrift. I have alternatives to consider, but in the short run, nothing as soothing as believing they are in the protection of a perfect guru and their salvation is assured.

(Who, what is to be saved?..an idea, an amalgamation of conceptualities?)

It may sound hypocritical for me to say this after all the criticism I have put on this blog about RS, but who am I to judge or comment on anyone's beliefs unless asked? I am really no authority on anything. I just have this little mind with its little opinions that babbles on. That goes for the other stuff I write about as well.

I think it is the anonymity of blog-writing that gives me a pass to say what I think in the blogosphere. Anyone who goes to blogs should expect to hear opinion that may not please them. That's the way it is. Ultimately, I hope what I say is more often helpful than hurtful to the few who care to read it.

[Bob]

Hey Tuscon:

I appreciate your honesty.

You know, a few years ago I came to the gut level realization that I don't know shit about spirituality.

Interestingly, that understanding came as a huge relief after all the years of embracing the security blanket of RS theology. I mean I could feel the physical relief from this insight, like a major load had been lifted.

Bob

[Bob]

Deepak:

Who are the offenders according to Sant Mat? It is those who are not initiated?

Even Sant Mat dogma declares that not everyone is meant to be initiated. So then, how are everyday folks being offensive and to whom?

And, are you saying in comparing satsangis to jehadists that they are intent on coverting the whole planet to their way of thinking?

[Deepak Kamat]

Bob,

I only wanted to strike a parallel between jehadis and satsangis. I won't say they are the same.

Now, even Jehadis have divided the world into kafirs (non-believers) and momins (believers). Even satsangis have divided the world into satsangis (initiated) and non-satsangis (non-initiated).

Now Allah has ordained that the non-believers will continue to be non-believers. The RS God has already decided whom to initiate and whom not to initiate. There is no free will in both Islam and Radha Soami. If you are not marked, there is nothing you can do.

In both the ideologies, the marked souls will convert. (Islam in the case of jehadis, RS initiation in the case of satsangis). All the rest are damned.

The only difference is that in Islam, the jehadis are entitled to kill with the sword. In RS, the satsangis are not ordered to kill lest it increases their karma. But there is another character called Kal who will do the dirty work that the jehadis do.

The only difference is Jehadis believe in converting the entire world. Satsangis believe in leaving behind the world (remember Sawan compared it to a latrine).

There are so many other similarities. It again requires a deep thought. I think both Islam and RS have the same ideological affinity. However, in all fairness, I must say that satsangis are relatively harmless. That is because of the karma factor.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

I have been observing the behavior of satsangies for more than 35 years. There are some as wretched as one cannot even think of on this earth. On the other hand there are some, who are as gentle as one can rarely find them on this earth.

Regarding superiority complex of a satsangi, if a satsangi considers himself superior, he does not deserve to be called as a satsangi.

Dear tAo,

I am really moved to learn that you have had such experiences with satsangies. One does not become a satsangi by mere initiation. If you do not feel the cool in your heart by seeing a satsangi, one must immediately dismiss him/or her as a satsangi.

Frankly speaking, the terms like satsangi, non- satsangi and ex-satsangi, have hardly any meaning for an initiate who is following any method of yoga/ meditation (imo).

I find the whole lot of bloggers here are very sincere, honest and clear hearted people who vomit out everything that they have within them.

With love to all of you

[tAo]

Lately I have found that what I had desired to say was somewhat different than what I ended up writing. That goes for this comment as well. So to all I say please don't be offended by my inadequacies or shortcomings (or my many typos).

My sincere thanks to you Bob, and please overlook that cantanquerous streak in me that I can't seem to completely shake off. I am really much more humble than I appear in writing. And I did not mean to be rude to you in any way. It's a knee-jerk reaction that I am trying to curb. I apologise. And I very much appreciate your sincerity and honesty and kindness. Keep up the good feeling Bro.

My thanks and applause to my good friend Tucson who, as it turns out, does a far grander job of articulating what I try and mean and fail to say, than I do myself. I really mean that. Especially his comments above. I should probably just step aside and let him do most of the talking for me from now on. *smile* Thanks for your clarity, honesty, and friendship Bro.

My thanks to Rakesh for having the courage to endure the travails of this Blog and myself, and for his unwavering respect, humility, patience, and love. Hang in there and keep that good feeling Bro.

My thanks, applause, and a bow to my friend Brian for hosting this Blog and for his amazing flow of candid and interesting thoughts, musings, insights, and sometimes contoversial subject matter. And a big thanks for putting up with me for so long.

And my sincere pranams, appreciation, and recognition to Deepak and to EVERYONE else whom I have (and have not) interacted with here, past and present, for all their comments, challenges, opinions, praises, criticisms, and their fellowship. Thank you from my heart. Peace.

[sapient]

Tao, Why are you so apologetic? Why would somebody get offend by your inadequacies or shortcomings OR even your typos.

This kind of concerns me. Suddenly you sound like a scrupulous person to me who is having guilt hang over and asking for forgiveness.

You wrote what you felt like and whatever you have experienced. You don't have to be over-polite like Rakesh to show that you are a good person. I have to say that I have always been benefited by your honest comments. Wish you peace and happiness without guilt.

[Deepak Kamat]

There is a phrase in Sanskrit. Ati Vinaye Dhoortha Lakshanam. Too much humility is the hallmark of a cunning man.

I guess being terse is a natural quality. There is certainly a rhythm in Tao's outbursts. I don't think he should be apolegetic about it. It is his way of expression -- a la UG Krishnamurthy. Each one has his own style. I don't know why. I find Tao's articulations on the dot. Of course, Tucson is peneterating in his analysis, while Brian is sophisticated. We cannot be the other. We have our own natural style. We should just flow along with it.

[Deepak Kamat]

Rakesh,

You seem to be witholding something.

You say: I find the whole lot of bloggers here are very sincere, honest and clear hearted people who vomit out everything that they have within them.

Yes, it is a good sign. Atleast, the Churchless bloggers are open and honest. But you seem to be witholding something due to your satsangi upbringing. That is not a good sign. It leads to constipation.

That is why I say that satsangis employ double standard with their sugar coated words. It is in Sant Mat ideology itself that you should not disclose your personal experiences. You should digest it.

FYI, there is nothing wrong about revealing your experiences to the right persons. That's an old RS dogma that you have internalised. It is better you drop it and be more open.

[Bob]

Hey Tao:

No problema bro! Your comments to me yesterday really got me thinking. So keep them coming.

Bob

[Zion]

Brian ET All,

I will break my "silence" once more;
Obviously you took my advice very literally.
When I said be silent and let the "show" go on I didn’t mean to say never express yourself under any circumstances. What I was alluring to is to these constant messages targeting the RSSB and their "cult" members. It seems to me that this site is slowly moving away from its original intentions (if I understood its original intentions correctly) which you have as “preaching the gospel of spiritual independence” to become a place where basically all want to have it their way…or else “I’ll unleash my wrath on you”.
Is spiritual independence really being practiced here? Where’s the tolerance for other’s beliefs/points of view etc? When I said that those who “Know” keep quiet I was speaking metaphorically, meaning that those who are SURE of themselves in their beliefs don’t go about unleashing their wraths on others, forcefully trying to change their minds so that they can have some satisfaction and feel accomplished. As for myself I don’t have any wisdom or spirituality to boast of, but like Socrates said the only true wisdom is in knowing that you know nothing.

[tAo]

To anyone who has mistakenly judged or assumed that I was being too "apologetic", too "scrupulous", feeling "guilt", showing too much "humility", or being "cunning"... I stand firm by what I said. You don't have to agree with me, but I sincerely meant what I said. There was no "guilt" involved.

I have come around once again to an old conclusion of mine, that for me, and above all else, the most important thing in my life is simpy to always maintain a GOOD FEELING, and thus to act with loving kindness towards others. No exceptions.

And so I will try to do that and I encourage everyone who reads this to do likewise. Thanks and best regards.

[tucson]

Zion wrote: "Is spiritual independence really being practiced here? Where’s the tolerance for other’s beliefs/points of view etc?"

--Yes, spiritual independence IS being practiced here because anyone can say what they want about what they believe or what others believe bearing in mind, as a courtesy to the host, that it relate in some way to his posts. There is, however, no obligation here to be tolerant of views that are perceived to be misleading or unfounded. Simple.

RSSB is frequently discussed because the host often mentions it and this attracts many commenters who are familiar with that particular "religicult". Discussions could just as easily be about the merits and demerits of other belief systems, which happens from time to time such as insightful and probing analysis about the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

What is your philosophical/religious inclination, if any, and why? Perhaps this would explain your taking offense when there are many unfavorable remarks regarding RSSB?

[tAo]

To Zion,

Regarding your admonition be "silent"...
You said/addressed the following to Brian "ET All":

"What I was alluring to is to these constant messages targeting the RSSB and their "cult" members."

-- This is Brian's blog and so he has the freedom and choice to address any subject matter that he pleases, and that includes "targeting the RSSB and their cult members". And as often as he likes. And the guest commenters like yourself and I and others have the freedom to give our opinions as well. You obviously do not find that agreeable, otherwise you would not be complaining. And that is your opinion... BUT this is not your blog.

"It seems to me that this site is slowly moving away from its original intentions (if I understood its original intentions correctly) which you have as “preaching the gospel of spiritual independence”..."

-- But you fail to understand that having "spiritual independence" means that Brian (as well as commenters) can address, debate, or criticise any issue that they choose, including RSSB.

"...to become a place where basically all want to have it their way…or else “I’ll unleash my wrath on you”."

-- I myself don't think that has been the case at all, and I don't think others see it that way either. But they can speak for themselves. No one is trying to "have it their way". It is simply a matter of diverse opinions and debate. But as it turns out, your comment clearly sounds like you think that this forum should conform to "your way" - ie: not "targeting" the RSSB.

"Is spiritual independence really being practiced here?"

-- Yes, most definitely. But apparently not if you had your way.

"Where’s the tolerance for other’s beliefs/points of view etc?"

-- There is no restriction on others presenting their beliefs and points of view. Nor is there any restriction on those who disagree with those beliefs. No one is being intolerant of others "beliefs/points of view". You just are not tolerant of those who "target" or who are critical of RSSB. You need to realize that tolerance goes both ways.

"When I said that those who “Know” keep quiet I was speaking metaphorically, meaning that those who are SURE of themselves in their beliefs don’t go about unleashing their wraths on others, forcefully trying to change their minds so that they can have some satisfaction and feel accomplished."

-- Now I have to say that (imo) that statement is a load of rubbish. First of all, you are assuming that people are "SURE of themselves" and that they have "beliefs. That is entirely your assumption, and not necessarily the way it is. Most of the criticism that goes on here is towards beliefs, not coming from beliefs. And your subsequent premise and assumption of someone "forcefully trying to change their minds so that they can have some satisfaction and feel accomplished" is even more faulty. It is simply a matter of opinions and critical debate. But you intrepret it as an ego-game. I don't think that is what these discussions and criticisms are about. Its more about questioning the validity and the supposed reality, or the illusion of various beliefs and views.

"As for myself I don’t have any wisdom or spirituality to boast of, but like Socrates said the only true wisdom is in knowing that you know nothing."

-- As far as I can remember (3 years), I have not seen anyone actually "boast" of any wisdom or spirituality here. But if what you say is really true - that you "don’t have any wisdom or spirituality" - then why is it that you are complaining about what others choose to criticise or debate about... such as RSSB?

-- If you have no wisdom as you say, then how do you presume to find fault with others criticisms of RSSB? You have contradicted yourself. I suspect that your claim of an unknowing and humble lack of wisdom and spirituality is somewhat pretentious. And I think you are actually just trying to suppress and "silence" critical thinking and intelligent criticism towards RSSB, under the false guise of "silence". I think you don't realize that that kind of hollow arguement won't fly with most other folks here.

-- If you find satisfaction and results in the RS path, then why aren't you satisfied with that? And so therfore why do you care what others may think, or say, or criticise, or "target"?

[Deepak Kamat]

To Brian and all my Churchless friends, visit me at my blog
http://www.saffronthinktank.blogspot.com
Get to know me and my political views.

[Zion]

I have NO philosophical/religious inclination that I give preference to. I am not concerned with narrow minded labels that tend to group people in such a way. I like to think of myself as a spiritual archaeologist; I dig for bits of truths wherever they may be found, on my endless search for clues to understand the mystery that is life/death. I never rely on perception alone to say that this or that view is misleading or unfounded. Just because it didn’t work for me does not mean it’s not working or will not work for someone else. I respect all religions/philosophies/spiritual sciences/schools of thought etc and open mindedly study them (to the best of my abilities) as I see the potential for those bits of truths in ALL of them. I want to make it clear to you that I was not complaining. I was simply giving my opinion/advice on the subject matter and did not address (at least not my first posting) to anyone in particular. “spiritual independence” coupled with your right of free speech does give you or anyone else in here the right to say, criticize or disagree with whatever…but does not give you(and I don’t mean any of YOU in particular) the right to disregard people’s feelings and sometimes be bluntly disrespectful. Where is the compassion, thoughtfulness and the understanding for others? Maybe I was hoping for too much of this site. One interesting thing which I have noticed here is that, if anyone says or agrees with anything that has to do with RSSB on his or her message, he/she is automatically labeled a RSSB cult parrot with no proofs. I must say that you have a very good ability to play with words to twist others comments to suit your criticism of them, but I still think that it’s just “philosophical hair splitting” that will lead nowhere. Now I hope you’ll excuse me as I MUST go back to my “silence”. Peace!

[Robert Paul Howard]

Dear Deepak,

Since my efforts to submit my "comment" on your blogsite were not successful, I submit them here:

Dear Deepak,

While I wish you well in your desire to remove whatever problematic/invasive "vestiges" you find in your own "Hindu mind," I surely do hope you are not advocating some sort of desire to force me (or any others) into some sort of "a Hindu world." I don't need/like that any more than I do the ostensible efforts of others (like Moslems, "Communists," Christians - or even vegetarians) to try to ram their ways of life/thinking down my throat.

Through my studies I have come a long way in freeing myself from much of the baggage of my own Christian (and Western) past. A change over time has also taken place in my sense of basic values regarding politics, human interrelationships, and the question of a basic sense of "meaning" which I find in the "world" - and in my experience of it. Such changes on my part have led various ones to reject me, therefore, because I do not (or no longer) agree with their prejudices/contentions about how the "world" is actually structured, how one ought regard it, and what is the "right" way to live in it and in relationship with others. Their various discriminations against me vary widely from one to the other. Some (specifically as from among the spectrum of Christian variants) choose to "pray for" me - some just regard me as damned to eternally suffer in the "lake of fire" threatened in the Apocalypse. So long as they just hold their opinions privately (even if they might let me know what they are), I find that quite acceptable. When, however, like "evangelical" (or "fundamentalist") Christians - or Muslims, or "Communists," or any other group who seeks to control my mind/thinking and my sufferings in life (personally, socially, "legally," economically, etc., etc.) - it somewhat complicates my purposive desire to be free from their forced restraints, calumnies, and efforts at trying to dominate me (as well as others).

So I hope you will not be seeking to impose "a Hindu world" upon me. Such would be equivalently as "bad" as what the Asian subcontinent has suffered over time from the depredations from the colonialism(s) of several political and religious movements that have thought the various peoples there ought be forced to accept - supposedly for their own "betterment."

I'd prefer not to have to put up with even more of that rather typical sort of pushy human behavior in my continuing life.

Robert Paul Howard

I could not determine how to get my above note posted on your site.

Robert Paul Howard

[Deepak Kamat]

Robert Paul Howard,

I know that my political views are just in the making. It is not meant for you. It is meant for Hindus. I told you these are political - not at all connected with the churchless blog. Of course, I am improving on the blog. This is just the beginning of my political blog.

[Deepak Kamat]

Besides, in my definition, if you clear your mind off all the baggages and be in a meditative state, you are a Hindu. This is the broader message of Hinduism as well as India. So in my opinion, Robert Paul Howard is as much a Hindu and he does not need to be reformed. He is already a reformed Hindu.

[Deepak Kamat]

Robert Paul Howard,

You may press on the comments below the article. Tao and Sapient have already sent their comments in the same manner.

[tAo]

To Zion,

Zion wrote: "“spiritual independence” coupled with your right of free speech... ...does not give you the right to disregard people’s feelings and sometimes be bluntly disrespectful."

-- So you think that you can say what the limits are on someone elses "right"? That somehow there is some rule that prohibits one from having "disregard" of other "people’s feelings" and of being "bluntly disrespectful"? That's rather funny... and immature. I can see why you feel that criticism of RS is off-limits.

"Where is the compassion, thoughtfulness and the understanding for others?"

-- Who says that such must prevail? Can't you see how you are defining how others should be and act? Why do you presume that there must be "compassion, thoughtfulness and understanding"? Those are nice qualities, but what makes you think that others have no "right" to

First you SAY that those who know don't say (which is basically bullshit btw), and then later on you finally say "I was simply giving my opinion/advice on the subject matter". I think your pretense and hypocrisy is quite laughable. You obviously haven't learned very much from all those "religions/philosophies/spiritual sciences/schools of thought etc" that you say you have studied, or from your "dig for bits of truths wherever they may be found", or your "endless search for clues to understand the mystery that is life/death".

You say that maybe you were "hoping for too much of this site". That says you have expectations and judgements.

You also say that "if anyone says or agrees with anything that has to do with RSSB on his or her message, he/she is automatically labeled a RSSB cult parrot with no proofs". Well that's usually because whoever happens to have been touting RS dogma, does not and apparently can not present or provide any proofs to their claims or the claims of RS.

You said: "I must say that you have a very good ability to play with words to twist others comments to suit your criticism of them...".

-- No one here is twisting any comments. And for myself, that's precisely why I always give exact quotes of what someone else says before I respond to their statements. However, it does appear that you are attempting to do otherwise and you are doing a little twisting of your own.

You then said: "...but I still think that it’s just “philosophical hair splitting” that will lead nowhere."

-- Is that right? I definitely disagree. The only "philosophical" "hair-splitting" and mumbo-jumbo that is ever posted here is always either from RS dogmatists or other folks with some religious doctine or agenda to tout.

You wrote: "I hope you’ll excuse me as I MUST go back to my “silence”."

-- The only real "silence " that is recognized by genuine Sages is not simply the mere absence of any engagement of speech or of writing, but rather an inner silence. This inner silence has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not one speaks or does not speak, or writes or does not write. It does not matter how many words one speaks or writes. So I would say that your pretence of so-called "silence" is merely a foolish game that you are playing in this forum. And I don't think anyone else here regards it as anything more than that.

However, your opinions are most welcome here and no one cares how much or how little you say. Therefore, to come here pretending that you desire to remain silent, and supposedly that "silence" is to not make statements and comments, and yet you are in fact using written words to communicate and engage in discussion or debate (which is precisely what a blog comment-forum is all about), is basically absurd.

If you don't wish to speak or to write or to comment, then what are you doing here? It's nonsense. You seem to have an intelligent mind, so why don't you just drop this "silence" nonsense and just participate. Or else refrain from making comments. It's entirely your choice. But talking about "silence" is rather ridiculous.

As I said, the real silence is an inner thing and has nothing to do with whether or not you use spoken and written words and ideas to communicate.

[Robert Paul Howard]

Dear Deepak,

Thank you for your three replies.

As for your third: as I indicated at the beginning and end of my note posted above, I did try (about four times) to get its central portion accepted by your "comments" section. Each time it was refused because my URL (so I was informed) had an unacceptable character in it. I cannot account for this, since the identifying information I used in writing to you was the same as what I use to write to Brian's blog. My attempts, however, thereby failed - thus leading to my posting it here.

As for your first: you tell me that "[i]t is not meant for you. It is meant for Hindus." But in your second: you offer your opinion that I am "...already a reformed Hindu."

I take it that you are being generous in your offered opinion, but I believe that you are using the term "Hindu" in your second reply to me in a rather "transcendent" sort of way. Within the extent of my knowledge, I have no known ancestors from beyond the River Sindhu, nor do I participate in the society, culture, nor religion(s) of that region's people(s). Nor do I wish to.

While I do appreciate some basic human values which I see to be "positive," I don't much care for various other - seemingly quite basic - human values/behaviors which I regard as quite "negative." Evangelical culturalism and ethnocentristic aggrandizement fall into the latter category for me. I frankly wish all people could/would regard their own native cultures (and "religions") with far less provincial attachment than they generally tend to. I would prefer such a "transcendent" detachment over the more usual state of affairs. I would hope, therefore, that a "reformed Hindu" would be leaving behind the "nationalism" that most ordinary Hindus might find attractive......namely, as being "against" Muslims, communists, Christians, and even others with "colonial" imperatives. I hope they might transcend that (as I wish also for the others).

Robert Paul Howard

[Deepak Kamat]

Robert Paul Howard,

Yes, transcending is the right word. But Hindus are transcendental by nature. If you look at the history of India, it has only been attacked by foreigners. Indians never attacked. Yes, when I mean Hindu internationalists. I mean it in a transcendental sense.

Also when I meant that the blog is not meant for you. I meant that the target audience of the book is largely Hindus. In fact I am writing a book and the blog was only meant to be a place where I could dump the articles of my book. Anyway your reply made me think about the factors of a foreigner reading my book. However, if you read my entire book, the confusion will be cleared. As and when I finish writing the book, I will add it in the blog.

It's a new blog. So problems are inevitable. Anyway I think you could have posted it as anonymous. And then you could have typed your name in the message. You may even send me a private email at deepakmangalore(yahoo account).

Finally, Hindus are not against Muslims. They are against Jehad. Hindus are not against Christians (they are against the evangelical Church). Not against Communism (but against the authoritarianism that follows it). Nor against imperialists (but against domination. I hope my stand is clarified. For further info, you can post the message in my blog or email me (deepakmangalore) yahoo account.

[Robert Paul Howard]

Dear Deepak,

I appreciate your being "against...authoritarianism" and "against domination." Such attitudes do seem "positive" to me. But I cannot agree that Hindus per se are any more "transcendental by nature" than any other human subset is much of anything "by nature."

I believe history shows that such attributions of attributed characteristics to any selected group of people "by nature" is a source of mischief against those others (and, thereby, against one's own self and society). I.e., are (all) Jews ..(something).. "by nature"? Are all Chinese ..(something).. "by nature"? I think not.

It appears to me (as in accord with your differentiations among "Hindu" groups) that all naturally occuring human groups (societies, peoples, nations, etc.) fall into bell-curves with regard to their general characteristics. Ergo I doubt that Hindus are any more "transcendental by nature" than any other people.

Robert Paul Howard

[Richard Fu'e Fu'e]

The Masters of RSSB-are an example for all of us in the world
if you have beeen lucky enough to see them hear them talk read their discourses-with an open unbiased mind-they do not want followers to rush blindly after them-this path is one of total commitment -just like any path.

Before judging this path -have you ever read one word written by the RSSB masters,- concepts of spirituality remain in the domain of the intellect-whereas experiencing first hand within
the inner bliss say of meditation-this is the path,the real path
of sound and light,the holy name,word shabd,nam,Tao,bang-i-ismani. give it any namit is the same EXPERIENCE.
For those so called ex -satsangis remember this is a path of forgiveness-the teacher who has your best interests at heart has not turned his head away from you-go back to class and see-there he is 24/7-He is ready to accept ALL those who wish to learn -don't forget WE are not teachers are we?
however one can not relinquish ones duty as a student in a university to study and pass the core curricculum nor blame the
institution if we fail at passing our exam-it is not the libraries fault if we refuse to digest the knowledge therein.
So it is with the perfect masters The Professors Emiritus of The University of Spritualty-the Shabd Illumni-so to say

These perfect ones and I mean perfect-they never hurt anyone , never accept a single dime from anyone personally-they work normal jobs they havefamilies or not .they go through the samr problems as us-they meditate daily they pay taxes have friends are generous build charitable hospitals-now does a selfish person wrapped up in their own little world do that ?

In short do any or all of YOU American haters of the path of Sant Mat TAKE ON THE KARMAS OF OVER 2 million human beings?

No! I didn't think so.Well before you cast aspersions on Gurinder Singh or any other master past or present-have a look at your own spirituality-take a good long look at your past lives,your present self righteous one -and I know about that -I am in the club too-but I have EXPERIENCED the mountain top, I have been
to the summit of Christ,-I KNOW who Gt Master is Charan Singh
and all the VERY FEW perfect masters in this world -maybe just One....so American fanatics of hatred of the so called ex satsangi
get real -WHY DID YOU APPLY to be INITIATED in the first place?

Exactly!

You want love-?
You want bliss-?

You want spirituality?

Well then -GO INSIDE-shut the criticising mouth and meditate.
Do your simran do your bhajan-read discourses -stay married.
You heard.Be a diciple if YOU got the guts.You and I are either on the bus or off the bus,-as Baba Ji says

Here is an example of a prayer witten -n 1947 by the Great Master

My Lord I am ignorant I do not know what to ask from you.
Give me that which you think best for me.And give me the strength and wisdom to be happy about what you deem fit to give me and about how and where you keep me
.I have no virtue , no devotion.My actions are all dark and sinful.
I possess no merits and the mind has thoroughly crushed me,For a sinner like myself,O Lord there is no refuge but Thy Blessed Feet,I want nothing more.
Make me Thy slave, that I become Thine and Thou mayst become mine

Sawan Singh-1858-1948

And another thing Mohammed was a perfect living master of his time-you never been inside -don't judge true muslims then until you have seen within so to say and you have never read the Koran -suggest you do then-then go to a mosque-ex satsangi -American racist oofas.

Also can Jesus and Mohammed Guru Nanak, Sawan Singh Charan Singh Rongomai O Te Whiti etc be seen within?

The answer is yes- easier than sending am email to the Church of the Churchless

Alofa

Richard Fu'e Fu'e

[Richard Fu'e Fu'e]

Oh forgot the original concept of jihad is very confusing a-we do not speak arabic so therefore if wwe are not muslim or arabic speakers how can we know-if we have neve been to a mosque read the Koran how do we know ?

Look at this world -everybody hating etc-we are all mentally ill if we are attached to tis creation-

Be better off seeing the unity of God within all of the creation and meditating on Love than despising sant mat and its struggling followers-have a bit of compassion for your self and others .

Alofa

Fu'e Fu'e

[tAo]

Richard Fu'e Fu'e,

You're back up to the same old shit as usual I see.

You've come back again to dump yet another load of your same old RS proseltyzing bullshit upon the rest of us who really don't want it or need it.

So why don't you go preach to an RS satsang, where you belong. Why do you preach and proseltyze Santmat/RS on the internet, when it is in direct opposition to and totally against the specific instructions and admonitions of YOUR current RSSB master/guru? That makes you a bad disciple and a hypocrite.

Anyway, let me see what kind of garbage you have posted that I can use to shoot at for target practice today...

"The Masters of RSSB-are an example for all of us in the world"

-- An example of hypocrisy, fraud, and cult mind control.

"they do not want followers to rush blindly after them"

-- Then why do they encourage them to do so?

"Before judging this path -have you ever read one word written by the RSSB masters"

-- As a matter of fact I have. I have read all of thir books. That's exactly why I have a damn good right to judge them.

"concepts of spirituality remain in the domain of the intellect-whereas experiencing first hand within"

-- Then why the need for so many RS books?

"this is the path,the real path
of sound and light,the holy name,word shabd,nam,Tao,bang-i-ismani. give it any namit is the same"

-- Did you say blah blah blah?

"ex-satsangis remember this is a path of forgiveness-the teacher who has your best interests at heart"

-- Bullshit. The "teacher" has his own interests at heart. And I don't need any "forgiveness", and especially not from some stupid-ass cult guru who doesn't give a damn about anyone.

"go back to class and see-there he is 24/7-He is ready to accept ALL those who wish to learn -don't forget WE are not teachers are we?"

-- I have no interest in any "class" and I have nothing to learn from from phony spiritual gurus. As for what "WE" are... (unlike you) I can only speak for myself - I was a teacher - a university professor with many students - not some idiot like yourself who actually thinks that a phony cult guru is a teacher.

"So it is with the perfect masters"

-- "Perfect masters" is nothing but an ignorant myth that is touted by fools who cannot think and reason for themselves.

"These perfect ones and I mean perfect-they never hurt anyone , never accept a single dime from anyone personally-they work normal jobs"

-- Absolute bullshit. They have hurt many many thousands of people, and they do take money and material from others (donations), and they do NOT "work normal jobs" at all. They play the role of a cult guru and they deceive others into thinking that they are spiritual masters. But they are masters of nothing and no one.

"they go through the samr problems as us-they meditate daily they pay taxes have friends are generous build charitable hospitals"

More bullshit. But yes they do have problems... big problems. But they don't pay any taxes, and they don't build hospitals - its the donations and the constructions laborers that build the hospitals. These fraudulent gurus do nothing for anyone. It's all a myth, an illusion. They live off of donations and they don't give anything to anyone - not materially nor spiritually.

"now does a selfish person wrapped up in their own little world do that ?

-- Yes. All the little people who donate their hard-earned money (and the workers and the doctors) are the ones who really build the hospitals. The guru does notng nut sit on his phony ass and take credit.

"do any or all of YOU American haters of the path of Sant Mat TAKE ON THE KARMAS OF OVER 2 million human beings?"

-- No, and I would not want to, nor could I. No one can. No one (including these phony masters) can take anyone elses karma, not to mention "2 million human beings". That is an absolute myth - absolutely false... It is an enormous friggin LIE. And you and anyone else who claims that, is also a god-damned stinking LIAR and mentally retarded.

"before you cast aspersions on Gurinder Singh or any other master past or present-have a look at your own spirituality-take a good long look at your past lives"

-- These so-called "master" that you tout here are nobodies, nothing more than mere appointed political leaders of some obscure mystic religious cult. And my "own spirituality" is as solid as the Himalayas. Whereas yours is nothing more than a tiny little castle of sand built upon a beach just before the tide comes in.

"but I have EXPERIENCED the mountain top, I have been to the summit of Christ,-I KNOW who Gt Master is Charan Singh and all the VERY FEW perfect masters in this world"

-- Actually, you don't know shit. Your Christ is a pipe-dream, and your "masters" are dead and gone. You are nothing more than a fool with a rather inflated ego.

"so American fanatics of hatred of the so called ex satsangi get real"

-- I already am real... unlike yourself who is a Radha Soami cult fanatic living in a bubble of illusion.

"You want love-? You want bliss-? You want spirituality?"

-- No. None of the above. Don't need any of that bullshit.

"shut the criticising mouth and meditate.
Do your simran do your bhajan-read discourses -stay married.

-- You are the one with the big mouth... and the big fat head to go along with it. Screw your simran and fuck your bhajan, and burn your stupid discourses. And go get laid... that is if your dick and your balls haven't already atrophied down to the size of a tiny pea due to lack of sexercise. And guys like you have no balls anyway. You couldn't get it up long enough to satisfy any woman, much less a "married" one. Plus.. your idea of a good time is to meditate upon some bearded dude in a turban. Sounds pretty darn faggoty to me.

"Be a diciple if YOU got the guts.You and I are either on the bus or off the bus,-as Baba Ji says"

-- Babaji is a big fat fraud... and you. you are a friggin idiot. And btw, your bus is headed over a cliff.

"And another thing Mohammed was a perfect living master of his time-you never been inside -don't judge true muslims then until you have seen within so to say and you have never read the Koran -suggest you do then-then go to a mosque-ex satsangi -American racist oofas."

"we do not speak arabic so therefore if wwe are not muslim or arabic speakers how can we know-if we have neve been to a mosque read the Koran how do we know ?"

-- Mohammed was a stupid illiterate who could not write. And I don't give a shit about moslems. And I have in fact read the Quran, And I do speak some Arabic, and I have been to many many mosques - all over the middle east in fact... so you ought to try and take your lame-brain satsangi head out of your fanatically religious asshole.

"Look at this world -everybody hating etc-we are all mentally ill if we are attached to tis creation"

-- You are the one who hates ex-satsangis. And you are the one who is mentally ill. And all of the "creation" is beauty, and beauty is all in the eye of the beholder.

"Be better off ... meditating on Love than despising sant mat and its struggling followers-have a bit of compassion for your self and others ."

-- Satsangis are the worst examples of "Love" that I have ever come across, and "struggling followers" are simply ignorant fools who are hung up in an illusory religious cult and its fraudulent guru.

[Mike Williams]

Mike Williams wrote Radhasoami Beas Secret
History. It had been read by over 500,000
satsangis in its various websites over
the last few years. It is historical extremely accurate as the author knew Maheswari, David Lane and Dr. Prof. Agam Mathur, amoung others.

Never has Radhasoami Faith had such a setback. The gurus are questioned by
people constantly and cannot answer the questions.

Radhasoami History 4

Below refs., R.S. Correspondence with Americans, S. D. Maheswari,Vol.1,1960,p.253-256, and Vol. 2, p. 278, 1962
..............
Quote
1.He ( Jaimal ) offered Bhet for building a house in Soami Bagh,
2.CAME TO THE SATSANG OF HAZUR MAHARAJ ( Salig Ram), and
3. EVEN ON BEING TURNED OUT, HE AGAIN APPEARED IN THE SATSANG of MAHARAJ SAHEB ( MISRA). ....When reprimanded for doing unbecoming acts, he would even beg pardon and PROMISE NOT TO POSE AS A GURU..."
end quote
.........................................
Extracts from the Council Dec. 25, 1902, 3:00 P.M.
( regarding Jaimal ) Resolution #16
" In accordance with bye-law No. 16, the undermentioned Satsangis were accorded general permission to initiate :
(3 people including Jaimal Singh listed.) Signed Chachaji and Baleshwar Prasad.
..............................
Extracts from the Council June 12, 1903 6:00 P.M. :
(Resolution shows complaints against Jaimal for posing as a guru)
" After inquiry, it transpired that Baba Jaimal Singh DID NOT CONSIDER HIMSELF TO BE A SANT AND THAT HE HAD NO OBJECTION TO THE ENTRY OF HIS NAME IN THE REGISTER OF SATSANGIS ".
(direct entry of Council )
signed BRAHAM SHANKAR MISRA . ( 3rd sat guru )
signed by secretary also.
...................................
Now the remarkable entry by Council just three days before Jaimal died !!! Introduced by Sudarshan Singh ( Chachaji's youngest son ).
Extract Dec. 26, 1903, 3:00 P.M. Resolution #4 : (regarding certain complaints against Baba Jaimal Singh for posing as a guru and not sending in names of initiates ) direct entry Council log
"...a strong warning should be administered to him ( Jaimal ) through Chachaji Saheb by means of registered , acknowledgment due, letter and that in case of failure to comply with it, necessary action may be taken."
UNANIMOUSLY APPROVED, signed , PRATAP SINGH SETH ( Chachaji ) PRESIDENT . signed secretary.
..............................
Actual photostats of original signatures from original documents shown in Corr. Vol 1 by Agra.
..............................
These original Council documents exist to this day, no one disputes them . Dr. Agam Mathur also confirms liscence cancellation of Jaimal in his book Radhasoami Faith. Court depositions during Dayal Bagh case show Adjohia (Salig Ram's son) and Sudarshan confirmed excommunication proceedings.
...........
----------
Correspomdence With American's, Vol 2, page 276, #5, 1962, Maheswari

Extracts from the Deposition of Lala Adjodhia Prashad (Salig Ram's son and leader of Pipal Mandi group, after Salig Ram's death, now age 60), recorded on the 13th June 1926, and onwards, in the suit against Dayal Bagh, which ultimately went to Privy Councl, in England, where the case was decided in favor of Soami Bagh. Recorded under oath

Adjodhia states, " I am the President of Central Administrative Council, which has its head-office in Allahabad. I have been the president since the death of Rai Pratap Singh Seth (Chachaji), that is probably since 1910. Before that I was Vice President. The Councl was formed in 1902 (page 249 Privy Council Paper Book).

The 28 names selected for being mentioned in the notice issued for formation of the Council included the name of Jaimal Singh. The name Jaimal Singh was included because HE HAD AGREED THAT HE WOULD GIVE UP ACTING AS GURU and abode by the order of the Council that would be formed and also because Chachaji Sahib (Pratap) had recommended him. He gave that undertaking before the notice had been issued. For this reason he was given general power of initiation in the very first meeting of the Council. BUT, HE DID NOT STICK TO HIS UNDERTAKING AND THE SAID GENERAL POWER OF INITIATION WAS CANCELLED.

(Pages 267-268, PRIVY COUNCIL PAPER BOOK. end Ajodhia quote under oath

Correspomdence With American's, Vol 2, page 276, 1962, Maheswari Maheswari states, "Baba Jaimal Singh agreeing to the stipulation that he would give up acting as a guru and abide by the order of the Council, meant that Jaimal would initiate persons into radhasoami Nam, and not Sat Nam." end Maheswari Quote
----------
No one knows if Jaimal was initiated by Swami Ji oddly enough. Correspomdence With American's, Vol 2, page 260, 1962, Maheswari #62 Maheswari asks, "When, ie., in what year did Baba Jaimal Singh receive initiation from Swami Ji Maharaj ? Give proof in support of your answer." end quote
----------
----------
Chahaji Pratap states in Biography of Soami Ji Maharaj, page 27, 1978, Agra, (1902 original), "One must have a perfect Guru, I.E., the Sat Guru. Hereditary or family gurus would not do. The Nam must be true, perfect, real and highest of all. One must be initiated in the secrets of that Nam and Anami. Conventional names would not be of any help. One must have a true satsang. ...external satsang is having the Darshan of a true and perfect Sant or Sadh, who is the representative of Sat Parush." The Nam of Chachaji was RADHASOAMI. He did not believe Jaimal a true Sat Guru.
----------
Sawan's 1932 visit to Sudarshan recorded as "Two Real Saints Meet";
With a Great Master in India, Beas, 1982,p.65 ;
"This disciple was quite accustomed to seeing thousands bow at the feet of our Master (Sawan), but never before had he witnessed the Master (Sawan) bowing at the feet of another (Sudarshan)....in that beautiful moment when he bowed at the feet of another Saint."
............
Sawan was bowing at the feet of Sudarshan, who did not consider Sawan's initiations ligitimate , nor Sawan a sat guru and had introduced the resolution of excommuniction against Jaimal in Council.

-------------------------------------

[Tucson]

Rather compelling, Mike. That might make a few RSSB satsangis a bit uneasy.

Come to think of it, how is it possible to ascertain the legitamacy of ANY guru regardless of official appointments, legal documentation, numbers of loyal followers, apparent lack of vices, or the guru's articulate expression of scriptures and relative truth? Or, even if said guru floats in the sky and walks on water?

[Mike Williams]

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/

JAIMAL AND SAWAN SINGH- THE GREAT SECRETS
.................
Jaimal Singh
-----
In October 1877, nine months before Swami Ji died, Jaimal Singh claims Swami Ji asked him privately to go to the Punjab and preach sant mat. Jaimal was an army soldier on yearly leave at the time. There is no evidence at all Swami Ji told Jaimal this, or ever gave Jaimal permission to initiate. There is no evidence Swami Ji knew whom Jaimal was, ever knew his name, or ever met Jaimal face to face. Jaimal claimed Radhaji (Swami Ji's wife) gave him a turban and prayer mat in 1890, there is no evidence this is true. There is no evidence Swami Ji ever gave Jaimal written or verbal permission in secret to act as Guru . No one in Swami Ji's family ever confirmed Swami Ji told Jaimal in private to preach sant mat. There are no records or confirmation from anywhere, or any contemporary personages of Jaimal's time that this ever happened, or that anyone ever saw Jaimal in the satsang of Swami Ji even once. We do not even know if Jaimal was initiated in the lifetime of Swami Ji. There are no photographs of Swami Ji with Jaimal and only 3 photographs of Jaimal are known to exist. Beas does not display Jaimal's photos, possibly for reasons contained here in Secret History.
.............................
Most astonishing is the fact that Swami Ji never wrote a single letter to Jaimal, that Jaimal ever mentioned. Considering Swami Ji's satsang was loaded with high ranking postal workers (including Swami Ji's two brothers Chachaji and Brindraban, Sudarshan (Chachaji's son) and Salig Ram, etc.), it's quite remarkable Jaimal never recieved a letter from Swami Ji. This group was famous for writing letters. Why didn't Jaimal write Swami Ji letters in the army, if he considered him his master? During the 21 years Jaimal was in the infantry while Swami Ji was alive, he could have visited satsang in Agra only a few times on yearly leave. Kirpal's claim that Jaimal only made it to satsang 3 times in his life seems to make sense. Basically, the reason we assume Jaimal visited at least once the satsang of Swami Ji, was that in Chachaji's biography of Swami Ji, he mentions Jaimal's 24th Sikh unit passing by, but did not give the date. But, it could not have been 1856, as the 24th Sikh did not come into being until late 1857, after the Sepoy Uprising.
..............................
Jaimal waits until July 1884, while he is still a soldier, to initiate his first person according to Beas and retired in 1889. In 1891 he started Beas group. It took Jaimal 7 years to initiate his first person according to Beas and 14 years until he established Beas , both from the Oct. 1877 date Swami Ji supposedly asked him secretly to do. Jaimal claimed Swami Ji asked him to do this nine months before his death, which was the last time Jaimal claimed he saw Swami Ji on yearly leave. Another problem is that Jaimal saw many masters and it is unknown if he considered Swami Ji his master, while Swami Ji was alive.
.......................
Some Beas books say Jaimal initiated a maximum of 2000 people, others 2343 people. Jaimal died December 29, 1903. He initiated Sawan Singh October 15, 1894 in the Murree Hills, in what is now Pakistan. Radhaji ( Swami Ji's wife) died two weeks later, Nov.1, 1894. Radhaji was a beautiful person and was known for giving money to the poor as she walked down the street from a change purse she always carried. Radhaji married Swami Ji at the age of 15.

***Note: Beas claims Jaimal was initiated by Swami Ji when he was 17 years old in 1856, the same year he joined the army, which he remained in till long after Swami Ji's death. Kirpal says Jaimal went to Ghuman, Punjab to visit his mother on yearly leaves. Kirpal actually notes only about 3 visits to Agra by Jaimal, roughly 1856, 1875, Oct. 1877 to see his guru. Called the 'Sepoy Uprising' of 1856, or the 'Great Rebellion' by Kirpal, it is unclear if Jaimal joined the British forces, or the Rebellion itself on the Indian side. Kirpal says Jaimal joined an advance guard of sepoys in 1856 and the regiment was disbanded in 1857, after which Jaimal joined a new unit, the 24th Sikh, which he remained in till he retired. The coincides perfectly with the beginning and ending of the Sepoy Uprising. In 1856, the British East India company was defeated after 258 years. In 1857 the British retook India, this time under direct British rule. The Sepoy Uprising ended with the mass murder of 800 British women and children.

................................
Kirpal Singh says Swami Ji "had not begun giving public discourses in the mid 1850's and confined His meetings to small private audiences at his home", (Jaimal Singh,A Great Saint,1973,p.41, Kirpal Singh). On Page 14 of the same book by Kirpal, "This system of addressing private gatherings at his (Swami Ji's) home continued for quite a long time, (Swami Ji) on Basant Panchimi Day in the year 1861....threw open the (satsang) to the general public." This 1861 date is the universally accepted date by RS Groups.

.................
................................
It is possible that if Jaimal was actually initiated in 1856, it may have been Girdhari Das whom gave it ( Chachaji called Girdhari Das chief disciple of Tulsi Sahib in his books) , while Girdhari lived in one of Swami Ji's houses in Agra. Swami Ji treated Girdhari as a Guru during this time, before he went public after Girdhari's death in 1861.

........................
Kirpal also mentions in 1890 Gharib Das went with Jaimal to Jaimal's home. Kirpal says they went to Jaimal's Punjab home, not Jaimal's home across from Salig Ram's satsang in Peepal Mandi, even though Kirpal mentions they stopped at Salig Ram's satsang. Gharib Das was a blind helpless sadhu often mentioned in Beas books. Gharib Das was born in 1841 and died in 1917. Kirpal said Gharib Das ran to Swami Ji in 1843, telling him he was the chosen successor to Tulsi Sahib. If the 1841 birth date of Gharib Das is correct, he could have only been 2 years old at the time. But, Beas books say Swami Ji was actually there when Tulsi Sahib died and received a last 'glance'. Swami Ji was born in 1818 and that would have made him 25 years old when Tulsi Sahib died. But, it is funny how neither Beas, nor Kirpal admit Jaimal had a house across from Salig Ram's satsang, although Kirpal admits Jaimal did attend Salig Ram's satsang. Kirpal had the muster out sheet of Jaimal's army enlistment. More on this later.
........................
Chachaji Pratap says in his Biography of Swami Ji, that Swami Ji was there when Girdhari das died.
..................................
S.D. Maheswari noted he knew letters existed where contemporary people of Swami Ji's time said in them that Swami Ji was treating Girdhari Das as HIS GURU.
**********************
-------------

Yogananda Christmas message, 1933: Quote:
------------------------------------------------

Hitler is to be admired for leaving the League of Nations because peace can never be attained by the victor and vanquished attitude, but on a basis of equality and brotherhood. Instead of preventing Hitler from having equal armament with other nations, the other nations should reduce the armaments to the level of Germany, then the millions of dollars that are thrown away on idle battleships could be used for national or international prosperity. America, France, and Great Britain should reduce their armaments first, and thereby destroy the desire of Japan, Russia, and Germany to become equally armed.

An insulted, snubbed Germany, if it gets away from the uplifting guidance of Hitler, may join Russia and make her a more powerful enemy of France and so on.

The Allies must reduce their own armaments first, and then they will find out that the example speaks louder than words.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

Newspaper Articles on Yogananda

------------------------------------------

Los Angeles Times, Wednesday, October 25, 1939:

SWAMI SOUGHT IN DAMAGE SUIT

Determined that he shall not become a vanishing Hindu, process servers were conducting a far-flung search yesterday for Swami Yogananda, Indian cultist accused in a sensational $500,000 damage suit, of amazing goings on with feminine followers.

Aiding in the search was the plaintiff, Nirad Ranjan Chowdbury, also known as Sir Nerode, former associate of Yogananda, who maintains a palatial abode on Mount Washington and also boasts a high class hideaway at Encinitas.

Chowdbury's charges took on a spice not generally associated with the spiritual repose of Yogism as the swami was sought by minions of the plaintiffs attorneys, Harold E. Krowech and Theodorn E. Bowen.

PREACHES HE IS GOD

After pointing out that Yogananda teaches that he is God, or Paramahansa, Chowdbury, Calcutta-born, Harvard educated student of East Indian religious philosophy, alleged that the swami has been for the past year trying to break up the marriage between the plaintiff and his wife, and that Yogananda prevented the plaintiff's wife from having proper care during the pregnancy of her child.

Moreover, Chowdbury alleges that the swami teaches that: The members of the congregation must not get married because their first love must be to God through Swami Yogananda and that if they should be married that their first loyalties are to Swami Yogananda and not to their spouse.

IRREGULAR PRACTICES
Picturing highly irregular practices in the cult quarters on Mount Washington, the plaintiff declared that the swami has young girls in the immediate vicinity of his room going in and out all hours of the night.

The younger girls are kept segregated from older women, Chowdbury charges, adding:

Young girls have free access to the rooms of said Swami Yognanda and that said Swami Yogananda forbids said young girls who attend him from going out with other men and forbids them to go out at all except with him.

At his Encinitas palace, Chowdbury charges, Yogananda maintains caves and rooms for meditation that are not in keeping with the standard of religious meditation...and that the places of mediation are too secretive and ornate of construction to be used for the purpose of spiritual mediation, all of which is contrary to spiritual practices, contrary to Hindu philosophy and contrary to the purposes and objectives of the partnership.

ROMANTIC TO MERCENARY
Changing from the romantic to the mercenary tack, Chowdbury declared that the swami has used contributions from his cultists to foster his ambitious and private ends. The plaintiff accused the swami of using the teachings of Yogoda and Hindu Philosophy for the sole purpose of creating a personalized interpretation of defendant Swami Yogananda as a divinity...so as to force upon the members of the congregation and others the interpretations that God talks only through Swami Yogananda.

Chowdbury said yesterday that while a graduate student at Harvard he met Yogananda, who then was lecturing in the East, became interested in the swami's teachings, and was made a partner with the swami in the cult only to be frozen out last January, after the long-haired cult leader had transferred his interests from the East to Los Angeles, where he is said to have attracted as followers scores of Los Angeles women and girls.

PURELY COMMERCIAL
After the freeze out, Chowdbury said he became convinced that Swami Yogananda was engaged at all times in a purely commercial venture for the purpose of his own personal gain, and that his activities had no connection with the true Hindu Self-realization philosophy.

At the cult headquarters, a crisp young woman attache reported that the swami is due back today. He lectured in San Diego Monday night, she said.

------------

entheogenesis Lieutenant Commander Posts: 7 (2/9/04 10:14 pm) Reply Re: Newspaper Articles on Yogananda --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Newspaper clipping from another Los Angeles newspaper.]

Wednesday, October 25th, 1939

Headline: SWAMI CALLS ACCUSER 'CHISELER'

Even the benign and almost imperturbable calm of a swami has its limits. Last night as Swami Yogananda returned here to find himself facing a $500,000 damage suit filed by Rihad Ranjan Chowdhury [Sri Nerode], who claims a partnership in this Mount Washington cult of Self Realization headed by the swami, that limit was reached.

The dirty chiseler, the swami exploded. The Hindu mystic who returned here from a lecture engagement in San Diego where he had expounded the benefits of self denial and self control, regained some of his composure and went on.

The charges made against me are scurrilous and without foundation, the result of an underhand attempt to discredit me in the eyes of my followers, he said.

Chowdhury had been driven out of the flock because he was insincere and because he violated our rules. He married a white woman, which is directly forbidden in our laws.

In his suit however, Chowdhury makes it clear he wants to dissolve the partnership because, he said, the swami isn't exactly practicing what he preaches.

He alleged that in a luxurious suite on the third floor of the Temple of Self Realization, the swami keeps himself surrounded by a bevy of likable young ladies who have free access to his boudoir at all times---but aren't allowed to go out with other men at all.

Furthermore, while his flock exists dutifully on substandard diets in line with the self denial theory---the swami dines on the most luxurious foods, he charged.

Chowdhury said sadly that he wants no more partnership with Yogananda, and wants the $500,000 as compensation for the work he has put into the movement.

A. Brigham Rose, attorney for the swami, said he would go into court today and ask to have the sensational charges stricken from the complaint.

Swami Ji left a verbal will in front of the sangat naming his successors, which show as 19 paragraphs in Sar Bachan as "Last Commandmants". No Radhaswami group disputes the originality, or authenticity of the will. It does not mention Jaimal anywhere. The will is printed in Beas Sar Bachan version,(Sar Bachan, Beas, 1971, pages 20-23), Swami Ji says "My Mat were of Sat Nam and Anami, and Radha Swami Mat has been started by Saligram. Let this also go on." Also if any one has questions "ask Salig Ram". Rai Salig Ram had been one of Swami Ji's earliest initiates in 1858 and spent the next 20 years in one of the most remarkable records of discipleship and devotion for a master ever recorded. He saw Swami Ji almost every day during those years. Salig Ram wrote Sar Bachan and the massive Radhasoami Religion books.
................
Salig Ram and Radhaji (Swami Ji's wife) were the successors named in Swami Ji's last statement. Chachaji, Sudarshan, his son, Radhaji and Salig Ram were among the many in attendance that day. Radhaji had no successors. Sanmukh Das is also shown for sadhus as inferred initiator, or care taker of sadhus. He is a rather backwards looking fellow compared to Chachaji and Salig Ram, whom look like kings. Sanmukh Das recorded an illegal deed on the property owned by Chachaji ( Swami Ji's brother, Pratap Singh )at Soami Bagh, after Swami Ji's death. Radhaji asked Salig Ram to help. Salig Ram gets the illegal deed rescinded and property returned to Swami Ji's family by trading Lado Bagh land, which he bought for purpose, with Sanmukh Das. All this according to S.D.Maheswari,Correspondence with Certain Americans,1960,p.194., Biog. Babuji, Agra, 1971,p.212. Sanmukh Das died in 1884 . The land later returned to Salig Ram from Samukh Das' lady heir. It was mostly because of this Salig Ram started the initial concept of a management (Council) for future Sat Gurus not to lose control of Satsang properties between successors, which was later carried out by Chachaji in 1902, Biography of Babuji, Agra, 1971, p.468. Page 194 Corr., also "The Council framed the rules for the conduct of sadhus and satsangis like Baba Jaimal Singh, who roamed about preaching the faith and initiating people without authority."(H&T,p.59-61).
...................
In a letter dated May 3, 1889 from Salig Ram to Sankar Misa (Salig Ram's successor and 3rd sat guru), he stated he told Babuji Madhav Sinha (who became 5th sat guru), "that something should be done, otherwise there will be no end of gurus styling themselves Radhasoami and the result will be quarrels and disentions and disunion all around, which will eventually ruin the cause of this lovely and sublime (Radhasoami) Faith." Holy Epistles, Agra, 1961, pt2, p73.
...................
Jaimal had a house built near Hazur Salig Ram's satsang in Peepal Mandi according to Professor Dr. Agam P. Mathur, see footnote 14, page 37 of Radhasoami Reality, Mark Juergensmeyer. Also, In Dr. Agam P. Mathur's Radhasoami Faith, page 128, Mathur states " After Soamji Maharaj's departure, he (Jaimal) owed allegiance to the second guru Hazur Maharaj ( Salig Ram)". In Correspondence with Certain Americans, Soami Bagh, Agra, 1960, page 189, S. D. Maheswari states Jaimal was removed from the satsang of Salig Ram for "keeping two or three young girls with him." Salig Ram died on December 6, 1898 after a short illness with dysentery and coughing blood.

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Note: In the following pages the book Spiritual Letters is mentioned, by Beas. Since Secret History was originally written, Beas is now claiming many of these letters are not original, that some unknown person whom originally read the letters re wrote them. This has not been verified directly from Beas, but it was always obvious from the historical mistakes this ghost writer inserted.

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Note* Swami Ji also mentioned a few other people in his verbal will, whom became obscure or meaningless in the history of RS Faith. They were mentioned as people of high inner status, not successors. Only Radhaji and Salig Ram were left successors. Swami Ji left Pratap Singh (his brother Chachaji) all satsang properties in his will, which was quite expected. These Soami Bagh properties remain in the Agra lineage to this day.
----------------------
It should be mentioned Dr. David Lane is quoted in the Secret History as one of the few Amercan historians. He started his career as Charan initiate and personal friend, and became a secretary for Gurinder and a Beas editor. Prof. Dr Juergensmeyer, the professor whom helped Lane get his PH. D., had most the references provided by Dr. Lane for his book Radhasoami Reality. David Lane claimed he played a 'tremendous role' in Juergensmeyer's book and that Juergenmeyer 'didn't have a clue' on his club. Although David Lane considers Beas fake now, his Beas history is still about. And, Juergensmeyer's book is still on the market. Lane spent years gathering material for Juergensmeyer's book 'Radhasoami Reality' when he was a vested interest of Gurinder and Beas. He claims to have gathered this reference material using a grant from a college in San Diego. Radhasoami Reality book, written on Beas bias, is a rehash of Beas positions and dogma. Radhasoami Reality was evidently written not to offend the 90% Beas reading audience. It is a cream puff book. Yet, Dr. David Lane did publish the book by Faqir Chand called, "The Unknowing Sage". And, this book is the most important Radhasoami book ever written. It should be noted Secret History is written using the exact same references Lane and Juergensmeyer used. But, the problem is, they omitted the most important parts of the documented history. Although Radhasoami Reality is rather funny and rediculous, it must again be remembered, Dr. David Lane has written the most astonishing Radhasoami book in Faqir Chand's Unknowing Sage. Faqir was endorsed by both Sawan Singh and Charan Singh (Charan on tape) as a genuine Sant. And, Lane's Radhasomi Tradition, on Kirpal's group, will be the landmark book for the future in these regards.
----------------------
-- Dr. David Lane on Kirpal's First Hand Experience--

For a large number of seekers, Kirpal Singh's promising offer was tantalizing proof of his competency. However, for a small number of followers, it prompted some confusion, since Kirpal's master Sawan Singh did not make the same claims during his tenure. As one Ruhani Satsang initiate explained to Kirpal Singh: "I know two initiates who in the beginning read Spiritual Gems and they found contradictions in it with Your teachings--very minor ones, but it created a lot of problems in their mind." [*NOTE: Heart to Heart Talks, Volume II , op. cit., page 157. *] Later on in the conversation the (presumably) same disciple expressed his surprise when learning that Sawan Singh's followers rarely received inner experiences at the time of initiation: "I was reading With the [sic] Great Master in India by Julian Johnson. And I was amazed in one section it says that the Master [Sawan Singh] gave initiation to over seven hundred people and out of that only two saw Light--only two saw Light!" [*NOTE: Ibid. *]

The disciple's amazement was well founded, since Kirpal Singh had basically forged new ground, breaking precedent even with his own guru. Sawan Singh, for instance, actually argued against the need for giving firsthand experiences at the time of initiation. Argues Sawan Singh: The view that one must see something at the time of Initiation or he would never be able to see anything later is wrong [my emphasis]. Experience also does not support it. Everyone is running his own course of life, which is different from all others. No two persons are alike in habit, form and thought. All are at different stages of development. At Initiation, they cannot be expected to behave alike. Only few [my emphasis] see anything then. The majority [my emphasis] take time, some weeks, some months and some years. All are not equally keen. [*NOTE: Sawan Singh, Spiritual Gems (Beas: Radha Soami Satsang Beas, 1974), page 87. *]

Malik Radha Krishna Khanna, an initiate of Sawan Singh and a close associate of Kirpal Singh, attests to the differences between both gurus' approaches to initiation: I sat in at many initiations, and sometimes he [Sawan Singh] would ask me to drill the new initiates while they were learning the five charged Names. He would go away and leave me there. At the end, he never [my emphasis] asked who had seen this or heard that. That is something Maharaj Kirpal Singh Ji had started [my emphasis]. [*NOTE: "Reminiscences: At the Feet of the Great Hazur," Sat Sandesh (April 1978), page 30. *]

----------------------

....Post on the Net from a club below about Kirpal.......

Kirpal was a moron

7/25/01 1:49 pm RS Studies Club post protoast777

All what is below is 100% TRUE!

1. He used to pick his nose in public satsang in front of everyone.

2. He used to spit into a spitoon in public satsang, grossing everyone out.

3. He used to clear his throat and rasp like a gorilla in public Satsang.

4. He was often very gruff and mean. Many people would have an interview with him and he would often treat them like shit and even make women cry with his gruffness.

5. He talked like a baboon and nobody could understand what the hell he was saying. He should have had berlitz language training and then he would have spoken some clear english for once in his life.

6. His target audience was about a grade 1 level. If you disagree, read 'Morning Talks', a real sophisticated tome that one. You need to have read "dick and jane" as a prerequisite to get through that one.

7. He was boring, repeating himself over and over and over, giving the same sleeper talks everywhere he went. He repeated the same old lame phrases over and over like a parrot, and merely recombined them into different combinations everwhere he went. Read anything he wrote and you will see this is true. Boring and unimaginative.

8. He would many times act crazy and ask "are you initiated?" even to his group leaders.

9. He was totally unpredictable, one minute smiling and joking and the next minute ripping into someone. He was so unpredictable that you never knew when he was going to blow up at you. A loose cannon ready to blow up at any time.

10. He generated fear in people. Many people would not want to sit near him but at the back of the room so he wouldn't treat them like shit if they were within his eyesight range. If anyone is HONEST reading this they will nod their head. I know of people who spent time with him who thought he was very gruff and nasty, blowing up at them for hardly any reason whatever. He had very little patience with anyone.

11. Indian people would bring their diaries to him and he would throw them on the ground. He would hardly ever show respect even to his own people.

12. He was very gruff and mean. He made a lot of people ANGRY at him for the way he treated them.

13. I know of people who are still angry at him for the way he treated them like shit for no reason.

14. If you were RICH that is a different story. Then you were respected.

.............

Kirpal tells how Sawan passed power to him

Kirpal Singh then describes the event that he would later declare was integral to the succession process: the transmission of "the life impulse" from the eyes of the Living Guru to his successor. In his 1949 account Kirpal Singh writes: "Hazur steadily kept gazing for three or four minutes into my eyes, and my eyes, in silent wonderment, experienced an indescribable delight which infused intoxication down to the remotest core of my entire body - such as was never before experienced in my whole life." [Brief Life Sketch of Hazur Baba Sawan Singh. Ibid.]

In 1955 he wrote, "The authority of giving initiation into the beyond and contacting with the Word, which he vouchsafed to me verbally on October 12, 1947, was thus completely transferred while going. The intoxication of that glance is still the life of my soul." [Message on the death anniversary of Hazur Baba Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj. April 2, 1955] (Probably c. Ruhani)

...........

---------- Darshan lies about women gurus, benefiting himself-------------

From The Radhasoami Tradition by David Lane, Chapter 4

http://vm.mtsac.edu/~dlane/rs4.html

Note: If you ignore Lane's horrible Beas

section (which he probably would not agree

with himself now) this was a good book .

In two letters written in September of 1974, just a month after his father's demise, Darshan Singh explained the circumstances behind his appointment. The first letter, dated September 26, 1974, was sent to Tricholan Singh Khanna, Kirpal Singh's first and foremost representative in the United States.

My nomination as My Beloved Father's Spiritual Successor derives circumstantial support from the fact that a woman could not be so nominated according to Sant Mat tradition. Such a thing never happened throughout the ages. My Beloved Father had taken care that I imbibe the qualities which would be helpful in carrying on the Satsang work. I have, under the circumstances, no hesitation in declaring myself as the Spiritual Successor of His Holiness Maharaj Kirpal Singh Ji in conformity with His wishes and shall carry on the Satsang work to the best of my ability. . . I am sorry to find that Mr. Sirrine concluded from his talk with Tai Ji (Bibi Hardevi) and her supporters that the Master had not nominated anyone as His Spiritual Successor. [*NOTE: There is an interesting sidelight here to Darshan Singh's letter. He claims that "a woman could not be so nominated according to Sant Mat tradition." The problem with this statement, though, is that it directly contradicts the historical evidence that Shiv Dayal Singh's wife, Radhaji, was appointed to serve as a guru, and did, in fact, conduct initiations. Furthermore, in the lineage of Soami Bagh gurus, Maheshwari Devi (Buaji Saheb), a female, was the fourth recognized master at Agra. It is also known that the late Baba Faqir Chand nominated several women to serve as initiating gurus. T.S. Khanna also makes the same theological and historical claims concerning women when he wrote, "In the whole history of Sant Mat (Path of the Masters) in India, no woman has ever attained the position of a spiritual leader or guide. This did not happen in the case of the ten Sikh Gurus, nor at Dyal Bagh [sic] or Swamibagh Agra [sic], not at Dera Baba Jaimal Singh at Beas." See Truth Uncovered: Re--Successor To Great Master Kirpal Singh Ji (privately circulated booklet, November 1974). Although Khanna is historically wrong in his allegations (as we already mentioned, Soami Bagh's fourth guru was a woman), it appears that his view on women is based upon Kirpal Singh's testimony. For instance, in Spiritual Elixir, Volume II (Delhi: Ruhani Satsang, 1972), when Kirpal Singh was asked, "Why do the Great Masters on earth always take the form of man?" He responded: " The Masters claim that there is only one Male gender amongst the souls,and He generally manifests on the chosen human Pole of the Living Master. It is a Divine Law which cannot be questioned by mortals. " [Page 33.] Kirpal Singh, Darshan Singh, and T.S. Khanna's claim raises several interesting historical, sociological, and theological issues which are beyond the scope of our study. *]

Although Darshan Singh does not mention her by name, it is obvious from the previous excerpt that he is denouncing Madam Hardevi's claim for the gaddi at Sawan Ashram, since, as he claims, "a woman could not be so nominated according to Sant Mat tradition." Darshan Singh is also disappointed that Reno Sirrine has sided with her and concluded that Kirpal Singh did not leave a spiritual successor.

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http://members.tripod.com/~dlane5/rs3.html

Charan Singh says about Kirpal Singh:

I do not like to say anything about the activities of Sardar Kirpal Singh's group, called Ruhani Satsang. . . . Since you have inquired, you are entitled to an answer, so I will simply add that the Great Master [Sawan Singh] never did appoint him as His Successor. He appointed Sardar Bahadur Maharaj Jagat Singh Ji, in a witnessed and recorded Will, to carry on all His Spiritual Work. If anybody else is bold enough to assert himself as the Great Master's Successor, then I can simply leave it to the sagacity of the seekers to judge his claim. The Great Master's Representatives in the foreign countries also have photostatic copies of the documents proving Successorship, and the one nearest you will be glad to show them to you on request.

As regards S. Kirpal Singh, let him say or do anything he likes. Sooner or later he will have to render account for his actions. You have been given the key at the time of Initiation and can satisfy yourself as to whether or not he is a true Master. It would not be in good taste for me to go into detail, but I will say this much, that the Great Master, Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji, never gave him permission to initiate anyone, and duly appointed Sardar Bahadur Maharaj Jagat Singh Ji as His Successor by a legally executed Will, in writing and duly witnessed, so as to leave no doubt about this matter. If you care to have more information, you may contact your Representative, who has a photostatic copy of the documents concerned and can explain the whole situation to you. If you like, you may also contact Dr. Pierre Schmidt in Geneva, Switzerland, as he was one of the witnesses to the Will along with me and others, and was daily with the Great Master during the last four months of His life on this earth.

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Kirpal says about Charan
To better clarify his nomination as Satguru, Kirpal Singh published a booklet on his guru's life and teachings in English in 1949 which explained in detail how he was appointed. But in so doing, Kirpal Singh was calling into serious question the succession at Dera. For instance, in A Brief Life-Sketch of Hazur Baba Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj , Kirpal Singh clearly implies in four different places [*NOTE: See pages 11, 12, 15, and 18. *] that he alone was appointed to carry on his master's mission. On page 15 of the booklet, Kirpal Singh quotes his master as saying, "The mission of spirituality can only be carried on successfully by one [my italics] adept in spirituality." Moreover, Kirpal Singh implies that some of Sawan Singh's relatives and close disciples were spiritually blind. Indeed, Kirpal Singh cites at least five different episodes where Sawan Singh's family and/or close associates misunderstood their guru's wishes. Kirpal Singh argues throughout the text that he alone was capable of understanding the sublime and mystical ways of his master. Below are a few examples of Kirpal Singh's slightly veiled criticisms of Sawan Singh's inner circle: [Page 12] In those very days, one night Hazur mentioning His inner esoteric experiences remarked: "The sun has risen high. Can the people of Jullundur also see this sun?" The relatives and friends sitting nearby were ignorant of this secret expression . [My italics.] The opinion of [the] doctor in charge was also, like others beside Him, that Hazur's brain does not work properly on account of His illness. A little later at night when I went to Him, Hazur repeated the same question addressing me: "Kirpal Singh! The sun has risen high. Can the people of Jullundur see this sun?" I replied, "Yes Hazur, the sun has risen high--and not only the people of Jullundur but also those living in England or America who will traverse to inner planes can see this sun." Thereupon Hazur said: "Thou hast correctly answered my question." [*NOTE: Page 12. Dr. Pierre Schimdt, who attended Sawan Singh during his last four months, has a different interpretation than Kirpal Singh of this same event. In April of 1948, Schimdt wrote: "I feel I must relate two instances that revealed Him [Sawan Singh] as a Master even during this period of grave distress: 1. Some weeks before His death the Master asked to be brought some water from Jullundur, about 40 kilometers from the Dera, and when it was brought He asked why they had gone to collect it. Another evening He said to us, "Look at the light which shines in Jullundur" although there was only a slight glow over the city. I thought these were indications of delirium such as is met with in uraemia. Another day He said "Look at this house in which I now live, it is disintegrating and falling in ruins. We must leave the Dera and go to Jullundur. Quickly, buy a new house"! This seemed to be symptomatic of a state of weakness and mental obnubilation which comes paroxsmically in such conditions. But later we realized what He meant, for it was His Way of indicating His successor, who came from Jullundur: It was to tell us that henceforth the light would come from there and that He had finished His task, for Sardar Bahadur Jagat Singh was born at Jullundur. [My italics.] See Radha Soami Satsang Bulletin Number X for further information. *] [Pages 12-13]

Similarly Hazur made a mention of several hidden secrets but those around Him were hardly able to grasp what Hazur was hinting at--this being a subject familiar to those only who are practical in-lookers and spiritually skilled. What, therefore, could other poor fellows know about them. [Page 15] (Spirituality) cannot be entrusted to a blind person. Whoever has a desire to find me out can reach me within through one who is linked with me. You will not find me in the company of those who are after the possessions of the world. Be not deceived by such people. . . . I do not dwell in the midst of mayaic insects. Go to some selfless being who is after me and lives for me and is not after possession of Deras. . . . [Page 18] Throughout the period of His illness Hazur said many times: "If a person proficient in Bhajan and Simran sits by me, I feel comforted and relieved. Therefore those who come to me or sit near me should do Simran." Accordingly, at the time of appearance of this symptom of "fluttering of the body" Hazur again spoke several times in these words: "If the person who has to do the work of spirituality after I depart, comes and sits by me, my trouble will be gone." To comply with this--evidently the last wish of the Master--the near relatives of Hazur came and sat in Bhajan and Simran one by one, by the side of bed of Hazur, but there was no relief whatever in the fluttering symptom of Hazur's body. On the morning of 1st April, 1948, it was extremely benevolent of Hazur to afford a chance to this humble servant--of course through the assistance of a lady in nursing service of Hazur--to be by the side of the Master, in seclusion, for about ten or fifteen minutes. . . . After the prayer [Kirpal Singh prayed for his guru's health] when I opened my eyes, Hazur's body was in a state of perfect repose.

On several occasions, Kirpal Singh implied that the successors at the Dera--Jagat Singh and Charan Singh--only had the "seat," not the power. An incident retold in the book, Heart to Heart Talks, Volume II , reveals Kirpal Singh's position with regard to the Dera and its successors: It so happened here in India that a man was suffering greatly on account of cancer. He could not sleep, even for a moment. He was fortunately, or unfortunately, related to me, Gurdial Singh. So Baba Charan Singh went over there. The sick man asked, "Will you kindly help me?" Charan Singh answered, "Well, I can't do anything." As Gurdial Singh was related to me--my brother's daughter was married to his son--she dragged me there. They wanted me to put my hand on him. He said, "Will you help me?" I told him, "Baba Charan Singh has been with you. Why did you not request him?" I did request him but he said, "I can't do anything." So I was forced to put my hand on him, you see, and all trouble was relieved. [*NOTE: Heart to Heart Talks, Volume II (Delhi: Ruhani Satsang, 1976), page 80. *]

Further on in the same book, Kirpal Singh explains the difference between his mission and the Beas successors after Sawan Singh: The other day I gave initiation to six hundred and fifty three people. All saw Light--about two hundred saw the Master's Form. The teachings at Beas are the same, but the words given at initiation are not charged [his emphasis]. That is the difference [my emphasis]. [*NOTE: Ibid., pages 157-158. *]

The previous excerpt is very telling since Kirpal Singh says that the difference between him and Charan Singh is that he has the spiritual charging and the Beas leader does not. In other words, Kirpal Singh is claiming that he alone is genuine, and that he is genuine by virtue of inner, spiritual power.

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-----------ELVIS PRESLEY----------------

It was reported on a major television network in 2005, by his wife and daughter, that Elvis Presely practised Surat shabda Yoga under Paramahansa Yogananda. A photo was shown of him meditatating at Mt. Washington, near Los Angeles. Also, many occult books were shown he was reading. Now days, Shania Twain was reported to be a Thakar initiate mistakenly by a major tabloid. She is believed to be a Beas initiate.

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Charan's will to Gurinder
"I, S. Charan Singh Grewal s/o S. Harbans Singh Grewal, aged 74 years am making this will in regard to the spiritual affairs of the Society, Radha Soami Satsang Beas while in the full possession of my wits. I am making this Will in accordance with the wishes of Hazur Mahraj Baba Sawan Singh Ji Mahraj and my predecessor. I have served the Sangat whole-heartedly nto the best of my ability for nearly forty years. I have received in great measure the love, faith. and esteem of the entire sangat, of sewadars and my staff members of which it would be difficult to find a parallel in this world. I am deeply grateful for their co-operation and support.

I appoint Sh. Gurinder Singh Dhillon s/o Sh. Gurmukh Singh Dhillon of Moga as my spiritual sucessor as ordered by Hazur Maharaj Baba Sawan Singh Maharaj. He will be the Sant Satguru as well as the Patron of Radha Soami Satsang Beas and will have the authority of giving initiation (NAM). He will also be the Patron of Maharaj Jagat Singh Medical Relief Society.

I have made this Will in accordance with the wishes of Hazur Maharaj Baba Sawan Singh and I hope that my wishes as expressed in this will be duly honored by the entire sangat, all my family members and members of the Society.

Dated 5/30/90, (Signed) Charan Singh

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Paul Twitchell ECKANKAR and Kirpal Comments

In the following excerpt from Hearts-to-Heart Talk number 5 given on Sept. 11, 1970, c. Ruhani, Kirpal Singh agrees with Paul Twitchell's claim that Kirpal dictated The Tiger's Fang to him "inside" when Kirpal was in India and Twitchell in Washington, DC:

Question: Too much fakery and too much commercialism?

Master: Yes, yes. Too much propaganda. I tell you one American was initiated by me - I’ve got the initiation report in his own handwriting. Then he wrote to me, "The Master’s Form appears to me inside." That Form used to speak to him, dictate to him, inside. And all that dictation was put into a book and the manuscript was sent to me in 1963. Then later on he started a new movement.

Question: Yes, I’ve heard about him.

Master: Later he sent me another letter, "Return my book, The Tiger’s Fang." That is what such-like people will do. They had some little thing, and got stuck fast there. Now he’s carrying on propaganda. He says he was never initiated by me. He was initiated in 1955. Some people get stuck fast on the way. This little ego is very difficult to get rid of unless there’s some kind of protection. This is a living example. He has written other books. I need not mention his name.

Question: I don’t think he mentions Your name either.

Master: I don’t think he would. Why say things about anyone? If any man does well, all right. I returned his book. That was dictated by me on inner planes, and that’s all right. He changed that book before printing; where he mentioned my name, he changed it to another guru’s name. So that is the fate of these people. People are fed up with these Masters, gurus, and sadhus. Why? Only for this reason.

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Swami Ji's Turban Gift to Jaimal ????

Conflicting statements of Kirpal and Beas.

Kirpal Version of Turban

Kirpal has Radhaji, wife of Swami Ji, giving Swami Ji's turban to Jaimal, long after Swami Ji died. Jaimal, A Great Saint, page 59, Kirpal Singh, 1973 edition.

Beas Version of Turban

From "Last Commandments Of Swami Ji Maharaj" (1818-1878), an excerpt from "Spiritual Letters," published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas, paragraph 19, Swami Ji Maharaj is telling Baba Jaimal Singh Ji:

"This is our last meeting. Now I shall go away to Param Dham (Eternal Home), after completing my life's pilgrimage. I have made you my beloved and my own RUP (self or form). " Bhai Chanda Singh then requested that Satsang be started in the Punjab. Swami Ji Maharaj replied: "This request has been accepted by Akal Purush, and this task has been allotted to Baba Jaimal Singh." Then Swami Ji Maharaj gave His own turban to Baba Ji as Prashad and ordered Him to go and preach Nam in the Punjab.

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The Times of India

DERAS EMERGING AS PARALLEL AUTHORITY

KS Dhaliwal, Times News Network

Jalandahar: The dera culture is spreading like poision in the whole of the state, more so in Doaba.

The deras are also virtual vote banks and are patronised by politicians.

The deras in turn patronise intellectuals and get them to write books in their favour. These intellectuals are connected with prominent universities and are never short of money as the deras influence extends into newer and newer spheres.

Political observers feel the deras may soon come to dominate various state institutions to emerge as a parallel authority.

The dera of Baba Piara Singh Bhaniara which shot into the news because of its links with prominent political leaders was only the tip of the iceburg. Almost all the famous Dalit deras, according to sources, have links with politcal parties of all hues.

CONGRESS CHIEF SONIA GANDHI'S VISIT TO THE BEAS DERA A FEW WEEKS BACK SEEMS TO ENDORSE THIS VIEW. The visit was kept a closely guarded secret and not even prominent Congress leaders were allow to go near the dera on that Sunday morning, sources reveal.

Chiranjilal Nar, author of Sangramiya lithas, a history of revolutionaries from the times of the Sikh Gururs till 1947, says "THE DERAS ARE BECOMING BUSINESS CENTRES. Recently a prominent dera near Jalandhar was sold to a Sant from the Majha region. Who knows where he got the money from, but he paid over Rs 50 lakh to buy the dera. It must be a profitable cnetre, otherwise why should he buy it."

Dalit thinkers and leaders are worried by the spread of Dalit deras. LR Balley, author of several books of Dalit conscousness says: 'The socalled Sants running these deras in Doaba are the greatest impediment to the Dalit cause. Moreover they are becoming an obstacle in the way of scientific and rational thought.'

Dalit short story writer, Bhagwant S. Rasoolpuri, says, 'These deras have taken the wind out of the sails of the Dalit movement. In the name of ad-dharamk, a movement started by famous Gaddarite Mangoo Ran Mogowalia, way back in 1925, they are misleading the people into believing in miracles."

Bharpur Singh, member SGPC says: "The dera culture is eroding the Sikh rehad maryada (code of conduct). There was a uniformity in this code that kept the entire community together". Dal Khalsa spokesman Kanwarpal Singh, said" "We condemn the dera culture as it is against the basic Siokh rehat maryada. Most of the deras have come up on public land anre are encroachments. But the government has no influence on them as they want votes"

The website is TimesofIndia.Indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?.art_id=829898541

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Mastana Ji

In November of 2002, The Times of India reported the person in charge of Mastana Ji's ashram killed the editor of a newspaper for reporting on the activites there. Mastana ji was an unathorized successor of Sawan Singh in 1948.

http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19980718/19951284.html

bottom half of the page

From the article:

...Sonia offers her prayers at a dera in Beas

DHARMENDRA RATAUL

AMRITSAR, NOVEMBER 5: In what is being touted as a major political move prior to the state assembly elections, the All India Congress Committee president, Sonia Gandhi, today visited the Radha Soami headquarters based at Beas, about 30 kms from here.

The dera has always attracted the attention of the political parties at the time of elections. This time around, in a bid to do well in the elections, the Congress took the lead by arranging a visit of the party's national president.

Although political observers confirmed the visit, insiders in the party claim that the visit was an entirely 'private affair'. The observers further say that the visit will have far-reacing political ramifications, especially when a close fight is being predicted.

Sonia Gandhi, accompanied by Moti Lal Vora, in-charge Punjab affairs and party's senior leader, Natwar Singh, landed at the dera's private helipad at 11.30 am, amid high security and flew back to New Delhi at 2.30 pm.

The whole exercise was attempted to be kept a secret and no mediaperson, even the local leaders, leaving aside party MP R.L. Bhatia and state president Capt Amarinder Singh were allowed to meet her. ''This was done at the request of the functionaries of the dera, who did not want to make it a political affair, and wanted to keep it low key,'' state a senior party leader, while talking to The Indian Express.

Highly placed sources in the party revealed that the visit had been arranged by Capt Amarinder Singh after a frenetic three-month long effort, after he had received reports that senior BJP and Shiromani Akali Dal leaders were also trying to make a similar move.

''The party leaders had earlier also sought the blessings of the dera. Indira Gandhi, Narasimha Rao, Pranab Mukherjee and the late Rajesh Pilot had been regular visitors here,'' stated a senior Congress leader.

Capt Amarinder Singh admitted that the visit was being planned for the last many months, however, he denied that the party expected any political gains out of the visit. ''There is no political motive in the visit. Sonia wanted to visit the place, and it was her personal affair,'' he said.

Observers, however, disagree and say that the visit had been planned by the Captain, who is considered close to the present head of the dera Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon, keeping in mind the coming elections.

''The dera has quite a recognisable following and had always been the attraction for political parties. There could be no denying political overtones of the visit,'' said Jagroop Singh Sekhon, a Reader in the Department of Political Science, Guru Nanak Dev University, here.

Sekhon, who has extensively studied the deras and their political affliations, also confirmed that the dera funtionaries had been supporting candidates in the elections time and again. He said they sit atop a highly composite vote bank.

Sonia, who took a round of the dera, expressed satisfaction over the visit and fully appreciated the discipline and the dedication of the devotees at the dera, said Amarinder. She also inaugurated an annual eye camp, he added.

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[Mike Williams]

Internet posts on Satsangis

Does it (RS) manifest better life choices, strenghten healthy relationships, wisdom, kindness, clarity of mind....a host of healthy attributes actualized in ones life ?

Absolutely not from my exposure to hundreds of individuals who have ardently practiced various forms of chasing after inner phenomenon.

CTD

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I know satsangis who are terrible...who lie, cheat, steal, who beat their wives, have incestual relationships with their daughters, go to jail for drunk driving, etc, etc. They were all initiated.

Bertha

Jaimal leaves no mention at all Sawan Singh is supposed to become his successor. In fact, in early editions of Beas Spiritual Letters it is written, " He ( Jaimal )also said if there is anything to be asked or explained, then Chachaji Ji (Pratap Singh, Swami Ji's brother), should be resorted to ", as he lay dying. Then Jaimal said, "the secret Shabd Currents in the neighborhood of Sach Kand will be revealed by Chachaji." Beas has now deleted this from their books. It ties them directly to the Council and its president, Chachaji. But, Chachaji had excommunicated Jaimal just three days before his death and had chastised Jaimal for pretending to be a Guru.

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In Jaimal's last letters to Sawan, we find Sawan appearing a neophyte in sadhana. In With the Three Masters, Beas, 1974, page 200, Sawan, after Jaimal's death, notes his conversation with Chachaji " ..after 28 days argument I persisted in my refusal (to initiate), I was unfit for this duty and some sadhu should be sent from here to initiate. I submitted that I did not possess sufficient power... Therefore, when Baba Jaimal departed from this mortal world, for one year after that I did not initiate anyone.", and also qouted in The Radhasoami Tradition, Dr. David Lane 1992, page 106. RS Tradition book notes once 700 people were initiated by Sawan and only 2 people saw light. First hand experience at time of initiation by Sawan was called rare. So, again, we see no proof Jaimal left Sawan as a successor, but possibly just the opposite. If Jaimal was not a sant as he admitted, how could he leave a successor ? And we will further see Jaimal's relationship with Swami Ji's family and most or all of Swami Ji's highest disciples, was a nightmare. He appears overwhelmingly rejected.

Off the Subject a Moment
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Note : Faqir Chand was endorsed by Sawan Singh as a legitimate Radhasoami master. Kirpal Singh witnessed Sawan bowing at the feet of Faqir's guru Shiv Brat Lal and the later returning the gesture. Not many westerners have heard of Chand.
Faqir Chand informed Sawan he was radically changing Radhasoami teachings to be more truthful with disciples. Sawan gave Faqir his blessing and endorsement in person. Faqir Chand stated in 'The Unknowing Sage'(linked off this site), that modern day Radhasoami masters had no power. He stated Radhasoami masters do not project their radiant forms, nor do they come for the disciple at death. He stated this was deception on the part of masters telling their disciples this to gain a following. Chand stated he did not know where he would even go upon death, nor were the inner planes experienced in a particular order as generally understood. He asked these key questions to Charan, Kirpal, Sawan and his own Guru, whom had asked him to change the teachings. Chand meditated 80 years before he died and considered himself much advanced from these noted. He never met Salig Ram, or Swami Ji, as they came before him. We don't know if what he said can be applied to them.

Chand stated he had asked several Radhasoami masters and they all concured his observations were true. Chand stated a disciple could have a fake master and achieve the goal. Chand even inferred masters could be criminals and it was the disciples own belief that projected the so called radiant form. This is no surprise, being that Sawan was quoted as saying he could not be totally truthful, as he had too large a group.
Note: The five names were common long before Swami Ji's day and were used by Tulsi Sahib and Kabir, also. Modern day Radhasoami groups use the classic squatting position covering their ears and eyes and listening to the sound current and viewing light. This classic position was taught from ancient times by kundalini masters. But, kundalini masters use the opposite ear to listen to the sound initially . When it hits center, Radhasoami and classic kundalini match almost exactly beyond that point. The inner planes often match, but sometimes they are called by slightly different names. For instance, Maharaji’s (ex kid guru) group, his father was a Sawan initiate, also use the tongue in the roof of the mouth technique to taste nectar. Yogananda’s group uses same technique as Radhasoami, except as noted above. They also start by moving kundalini up and down the spine to get it going, before listening to sound and seeing light. Some of Yogananda’s successors gave all 7 initiations. Yogananda's group uses an Om stick to brace the arms for light and sound viewing, RS calls the brace a paragon stick. Also, kundalini masters give all important transmutation of sexual energy techniques. Even Kirpal said not to bother meditating without chastity. Hence, Radhasoami followers lack the all important methods of having sex, without losing energy . This may be why women in RS seem to move faster then men in sadhana. The problem with Radhasoami initiation, seems the incomplete nature of the first initiation, given without transmutation advice of a physical nature.. And, sexual energy is key. Another problem, is that the last 6 initiations by kundalini masters of Paramahansa state are not available to Radhasoami people via their gurus. To make matters worse, kundalini has been associated with satanism and dangers such as mental illness. And, in modern days, some Beas associated groups, try to tell people that there is an energy down flow from a higher source and kundalini is raised only after clearing of the nadis. But, concentrating on Tirsa Til is classic kundalini practice for taking energy up and there is absolutely no question Radhasoami in very modern days is kundalini yoga. Viewing the so called radiant form of the master is also classic kundalini of Paramahansa masters. It is absolutely clear that the two major groups of RS now in existence have masters with little to no kundalini ability. They may have absolutely no power at all, not spiritual, nor kundalini. The fact may be, they couldn’t sock their way out of a wet paper bag. They simply were not properly trained to be able to admit their yoga is kundalini, because then people would ask the tough questions. Note : This writer has no affiliation with any kundalini people, or groups, and does not recommend.

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From Gopi Krishna's book Higher Consciousness (no page references available). Note the references to inner light and sound:

"But it is important to remember that all these visionary experiences with shape, form, place, or time are but the figments of one's own imagination, rendered vivid and realistic by the radiant stream of kundalini. The gods and goddesses, angels and devils, heavens and hells, superhuman and subhuman beings, strange unearthly creatures, astral and mental planes, conditioned by earthly time, space, name, form, or figure, have no real significance, but are merely the creations of the subjects themselves through their active and glowing imagination.

"The higher state of consciousness, despite its enrapturing radiancy and the alluring sounds in the ears, is as void of visions and hallucinatory figments as the consciousness of a healthy, wise, and clear-thinking human being, who calls a spade a spade, and who views everything he comes across in sane perspective and proportion, always ready to distinguish reality from a dream or a hallucination."

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Faqir Chand (Sawan endorsed RS Master)says

"So what I have understood about Nam is that it is the true knowledge of the feelings, visions, and images that are seen within. This knowledge is that all the creations of the waking, dreaming and deep sleep modes of consciousness are nothing but samskaras (impressions which are in truth unreal) that are produced by the mind. What to speak about others, even I am not aware of my own Self (in dreams). Who knows what may happen to me at the time of death? I may enter the state of unconsciousness, enter the state of dreams and see railway trains. . . How can I make a claim about my attainment of the Ultimate? The truth is that I know nothing."

"O man, your real helper is your own Self and your own Faith, but you are badly mistaken and believe that somebody from without comes to help you. No Hazrat Mohammed, no Lord Rama, Lord Krishna or any God or goddess or Guru comes from without. This entire game is that of your impressions and suggestions which are ingrained upon your mind through your eyes and ears and of your Faith and Belief." ( From 'The Unknowing Sage' linked off this site )

Back to the history. We know there are no records of Swami Ji, or his wife Radhaji, nor Salig Ram, his successor, ever meeting Jaimal face to face. Beas has to come up with some validation of their lineage to make it credible. So, they choose the two people we do know met both Jaimal and Sawan. Swami Ji’s brother, Chachaji, and his youngest son Sudarshan were picked, because they were the most influential. Beas calls both Saints in print. Sudarshan was highly respected during his time and Chachaji was Council president. Beas infers Chachaji and Sudarshan endorsed a separate Beas lineage and that they both accepted Jaimal and Sawan as masters. Beas doesn't directly say this, but this is the impression one gets reading Beas and Kirpal material. The events you are about to read are documented factual history that both Beas and Kirpal were fully aware of when they published history books during the last 50 years.
S.D. Maheswari was the greatest RS historian of all time, by light years. Both gurus and historians alike have learned most of what is known of RS history from him. He is universally quoted and all documentation and original historical records are at Agra for viewing to this day. He wrote over 100 RS books during his life, which were initially only published in sets of 1000, so very few people have had access. These events are also confirmed by the best living historian at this time, Professor Dr. Agam Mathur, whom wrote a comprehensive history on Radhasoami Faith and is ranked a world class historian. He was formerly Vice Chancellor at Agra College. Every historian is keenly aware of the events shown on the next page. Other pages follow with court deposition testimony from Sudarshan.

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Quote, Ram Chandra ( deceased guru, not RS ), Complete Works, Vol.1 ,p.362.

"Generally people select anyone (guru) for the purpose without regard to his capabilities or worth. They are induced to do so mostly by persuasion or miracles displayed by those so called gurus to attract the ignorant masses. Disciple hunters are not wanting. They are as numerous as leaves on a tree.. For most of them, gurudom is a very profitable job which can secure enormous income which they cannot otherwise earn.

Besides they command the highest personal service from their disciples. The ignorant masses thus fall a ready prey to these self seeking professionals. A petty miracle or ordinary display of something charming is enough to attract hundreds of these silly sheep to their fold of gurudom. A simpple threat of a curse upon one who happens to displease them, may bring thousands to abject submission. Not only this, but in order to ensure monopoly of their profession they declare that none but one belonging to the priveleged class has the right of being a guru. Sannyasins too, you will find these days in multitudes, posing as as mahatmas and professing to be jagat gurus - world teachers.

Is it not a pity to find such professional imposters, who are a shame to the nation and religion, roaming about with complete impunity to cheat and defraud ignorant people, in order to serve their own selfish ends ? It is high time for the masses to open their eyes and see what havoc has been wrought by such persons. The popularly believed principle that a disciple can never break off the sacred conection with his guru under any circumstances, is also a cunning device adopted by those false gurus to make their position safe and secure, and is nothing but fraud. Their only function is to breathe a few mystical words into the ears of the disciple at the time of initiation ... and give them his darshan once a year for realizing annual toll and tribute to him."

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Kirpal in Sawan's 1947 will
Complete will shown below
Sawan thought Kirpal would stay at Beas !!!
S. Kirpal Singh - In charge of the accommodation of Satsangi pilgrims to the Dera. Jointly responsible for holding Satsangs (sermons & preachings) and for spiritual literature. S. Jagat Sirigh, Jat of Varaich - In sub charge of all agricultural matters under the direction and control of S. B. Jagat Singh. S. Gopal Singh Latha - In sub charge of the accommodation and comfort of Satsangi pilgrims under the direction and control of S. Kirpal Singh

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Julian Johnson was killed in a fight at his Dera apartment in Beas when he found his wife, Elizabeth Bruce (of the Dayal Bagh satsang), with another man. Another version has it he came in on a man stealing something and he killed him. The man was of Indian origin.
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Tinnitus or Sound Current ???
Low level, broad band sound is used to facilitate tinnitus habituation. It was mentioned previously that 94% of the people placed in a very quiet environment develop temporary tinnitus. Silence actually enhances tinnitus and hyperacusis. Patients are advised to avoid silence and immerse themselves in a low level, emotionally neutral sound environment.

The noises most often associated with Type 1 Tinnitus are a humming or a buzzing sound.

The noises most often associated with Type 2 Tinnitus are typically buzzing, hissing, reverberating, echoing or humming in nature.

Tinnitus noises that result from type 3 include clucking or cracking, gurgling or whirring sounds. These noises are often aggravated or relieved by swallowing or blowing the nose since there is often a negative pressure in the ear. From time to time, many people often experience a ringing tone in the affected ear which comes and goes periodically, lasting a few seconds at a time.

The Tinnitus caused by cochlear damage are many and varied and can include sounds of ringing bells, chirping sounds, sounds like cicadas, roaring, hissing and fluttering sounds.

The Tinnitus caused by auditory nerve damage includes high pitched ringing bells, whistling, roaring and buzzing.

The sounds associated with type 6 are usually drumming, pulsating, or a fluttering which is synchronous with the heart.

Type 7. The predominant sounds are ringing, whistling, whizzing, and rushing (as of a waterfall.)

Note: Even rats hear sound current !!! Jastreboff, P.J., Brennan, J.F., Sasaki, C.T. Phantom auditory sensation in rats: An animal model for tinnitus. Behavioral. Neuroscience, 102:811-822, 1988. The main paper describing the principle and the results of our behavioral paradigm for inducing and detecting tinnitus in rats.

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A look into the Beas Dera culture
waking_now 1/23/02 10:35 am 10052
Charan Singh liked to collect woman's jewelry.

A satsangi woman told me that once Charan Singh pressured her to accompany him on a satsang trip to a city in Rajasthan. When they reached there, he prepared to go to give satsang but told her to go and look for antique jewelry for him. She went looking and found some good deals from villagers who brought jewelry for sale in the market .

When Charan Singh and his party returned from the satsang, a Dera official told her that he had seen her come with Maharaj Ji but had not seen her at the satsang. She said she had some work to do, but did not disclose what the assignment from Maharaj Ji was. That secrecy of not disclosing any personal interaction with Maharaj Ji was part of the Dera culture to which adherence was necessary for all inner circle people.

In a family if some members had an engagement with Maharaj Ji, they were expected not to disclose this even to their satsangi family members. This was a loyalty test used by Maharaj Ji to select the privileged ones. I myself have been a guest in a relative's home who told me they had an evening engagement and later at night talked of their Royal visit during which I had figured in some conversation.

Did the Dera Plant Articles
Posted on internet
I believe it was in the 80's Charan had a newspaper article planted and the author described themselves as a traveler who happened across Dera and described it in glowing terms as an oasis and so on run by a benevelant so and so....I still have it somewhere. The writer was really the daughter of a Dera appointee who grew up there.....'Waking Now' knew the family also.

> ctd
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Charan Singh, complete from site below.

Smuggling of wrist watches by major rep

http://oasis-are.20m.com/weetabix.html

.........
David Lane asked for more specific information regarding the shuttling of personal items from England to Maharaj Charan Singh in the 1970's. During those days I was Secretary of the Cambridge England RSSB Sangat. I was active in developing Satsang Activities and especially in organizing Satsang between Indian Satsangis and our Cambridge Group. Together with Kulwant Rai , I negotiated the renting of the Wembly Indoor Stadium, for example, for Maharaji's Darshan to the combined English and Indian Sangats.

The European and Indian Satsangis were kept apart at meetings, partly owing to language differences and partly owing to cultural reasons. There was a limited degree of crossing over between the two sangats by a few "permitted" Satsangis. I, myself, was very active in the Indian bhandaras I was studying hindi and punjabi and wanted to adsorb as much understanding of the culture of my "Master" as I could.

When my wife and I held Satsang in a our home in village near Cambridge, we would listen to tapes of the Master with seated Satsangis spilling out of our living room into the grass of an apple orchard. These were "bhakti-drenched" occasions and had a blissful, dream-like quality about them as they were happening.

I felt myself the luckiest of people, and my greatest good luck, of course, was that I had somehow managed to "find" Sant Mat, which vouchsafed me life beyond the grave and gave assurance that one day I would eventually get answers to all my deepest questions about existence.

I established a business manufacturing and selling scientific instruments in Cambridge. My work took me often to London, where I would meet with and often stay overnight with Mr. Mohinda who was an Indian man, about the same age as Charan, who had attended College with the Master and kept a close friendship with the Master. It was Mohinda, by the way who was the father of the girl, written about in another post here, who had obtained a full scholarship to Medical School in London, but was not allowed to take it up. Instead she was forced to marry a son of Professor Janak Puri, whom she had never met and move to Bombay. The boy was picked out for her by Charan, who was the guest of honor at her wedding.

During this time Mohinda was my very good friend. He was a close friend of the Master and he knew thousands of wonderful stories and was a very warm person to people he liked. He supported himself with an Indian Handicrafts importing business in London.

Whenever Maharaj Ji came to England, he would always stay with Mohinda in London. Before these visits, "selected" Satsangis would be invited to come to Mohinda's house to do Seva. We would strip all the old wallpaper off, sand down the moldings, paint the wood work (one coat of primer, Jay and two coats of enamel), then we would re-hang the paper in the room. Sometimes we installed new windows and doors and improved the overall facilities of the house. Those of us who were chosen by Mohinda for this work felt lucky and were willing to work until late, then sleep on makeshift pallets on the floor and continue our seva the next day. We were entertained by tapes of Satsang or the singing before Satsang, and enjoyed great meals. We were happy knowing that "Our Master" would be using these very rooms, would see our wallpaper, and enjoy all the fresh improvements we had made.

And so it happened that once after an extended tour that had taken Maharaj Ji through Greece, Paris, Frankfurt, Rome, maybe Holland and some Scandinavian countries as well, Charan came to London and stayed with Mohinda. He gave Darshan several times, held Satsang for the Westerners and for the Indians, and then "retired" for a week with Mohinda. The two of them toured England together on an incognito basis, going to the Lake District and to the West Country. At the end of this time Maharaj Ji gave Darshan again and took off for America for a long tour there.

Several months later, I was staying overnight at Mohindas, and was also preparing for a trip to the Dera. Mohinda took me up to "Maharaj Ji's room" -- that is what we called it, since no one ever stayed in that room when he was not there--unlocked the door and showed me an amazing amount of boxes and bags of shopping. All of these things looked like what tourist often buy from Harrods and department stores when they travel in Europe. Mohinda said that it was so large because the Master and his party (Maybe Prof. Puri, wives, cousins, nieces, etc.) had been to so many European cities before he arrived in England. They had decided to drop off all the stuff at Mohinda's house. It would be very cumbersome to take it all with them to America on their tour there. Mohinda and his relatives would bring it load by load into India every time they traveled there, and Maharaj Ji had said that Mohinda could send some it with any "good" Satsangis who were traveling to the Dera.

By "good", I understood this to mean, reliable, upright people who would appreciate "getting" this personal seva for the Master. I was therefore overjoyed to be in a position where Mohinda would let me join in with his family members to carry the stuff back to India for Maharaj Ji.

At that time I was such a "believer" that the question of the legality or propriety of carrying someone else's gift items through Customs in India never entered my head.

It actually "astonishes" me at this moment to realize how infatuated I was that my mind did not even work at this ordinary level. I was being offered a privilege. Mohinda put it like this, "If you have some extra space in your luggage, you can take some things with you when you go to the Dera." There was no question of Declaring anything on Customs forms. It never arose. We were taking personal things that belonged to the Master. This had nothing to do with Customs.

Indian Customs was a disgrace. A typical "Import Duty" ranged from 50% of the value of the item to 240% of its value. If I brought a new $300 tape deck into India and declared it, I would be assessed with paying a Duty of $720 to legally bring it in. In practice, the total duty was use to determine the amount of the concealed payment to the Customs officer. If you brought a tape deck with you, you would deliberately dirty it up a little, and pack it with your underwear. If it was found you would say it was a cheap one, you had had it for years, etc. When the bill of $720 was presented to you, you would haggle it down to maybe $25 dollars (US cash) under the table. This was the reality.

With regard to the watches, Mohinda told me that Charan liked to give watches as presents to family members as well as wear them himself. My impression they were not Rolex or Tag Hauer, but dress watches in the sort of range of price of $50 to $300 each.

So I understood what to do with the Customs "shake down artists" just as well as anyone else. I would not let them try to "shake down" my Guru.

I must have been exactly the kind of "good" Satsangi Mohinda and Charan were looking for. It was only much later when the glitter fell out of my eyes, when I became an "ex-RSSB Premie" that the nausea set in. Only then did I realize that I had been seriously breaking the law and I could have got into big trouble. This man whom I had loved so much had placed me in danger and had shamelessly taken advantage of my and other satsangi's willingness to do anything for their Master.

I hope this will place the actions in the contexts in which they occurred. I agree that it shows remarkably bad judgment on Charan's part. If it helps remove the veil from some people's eyes with will have a beneficial anti-cult result.

Bob , (ex Beas rep)

P.S. Mohinda is still around. He is the person to interview to get the whole story -- the big picture. I wonder what his take on Sant Mat is now.

I have just read the young student's post. He presents a totally accurate picture. The only thing he did not elaborate on concerning the "gora" (white, non-indian) entering India is this. First, the Customs people were given instructions not to hassle "respectable" looking goras. And not to overly hassle the hippies -- check them for drugs, maybe. But all Indian nationals are a different story. Thoroughly go through all their belonging. They know the "rules" so the size of the bribe can be quickly calculated.

Maharaj Ji's room in Mohinda's house was almost 25% filled with shopping. That represents many many trips to get it delivered inside India. As your student indicated, no Indian would even blink for a second about the propriety of doing this.

My problem is this. I was led to believe that Charan was a God-man, a Perfect Living Master. If there were such a thing as a PLM on earth, then there is no way He can do wrong, by definition. If a PLM steps on an ant, the ant gets human birth in his next life. Doing any activity that the PLM wishes is the highest SEVA.

If the Guru is a wonderful human being, a noble human being, a scrupulous honest human being, and he asks (either directly or by way of his friend) that you carry some of his things in your luggage, then you can use your discrimination, and decide whether you want to do so or not. If he is a PLM, you do not question anything. You want to be the kind of Satsangi that believes in his Master when all else have left. You are rebuilding your platform as many times as you are asked to do so.

So, the perfect Gurumukh will schlepp exactly as much Weetabix and gold watches, for his Guru as his Guru might require.

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Here is Charan Singh's diary entry regarding his discovery that he is the new guide in human form. This is from Treasure Beyond Measure, pages 14 and 15.

While driving, suddenly my heart began sinking & I felt that Beloved Master [Jagat Singh] had left us. I could hardly drive & so requested father 2 take my place.

On reaching Dera at about 1-30 P.M. next day, seeing so many Buses & Tongas people moving about in disordered manner, my doubts were confirmed & this sad news were delivered to me by Aman ji (Mrs. Kunda Singh) We at once left for the River Bank where His last rites were being performed. That place was about 4 miles from Dera & it was a terrible trial for father to walk all this distance. On the way, many people crossed me & some showed unusual respect, which of course irritated me. On reaching the spot, L. Dharam Chand from Amritsar matha tekya [bowed with folded hands]. I understood what all that meant. I was shocked & surprised to find S. Bahadurji’s order for me. People surrounded me & one after another every body had his way. I hardly knew what to do. I never felt so bad & so ashamed as I felt then. I was feeling as if I had committed some henious crime of my life & I had been punished with the sentence of death & people have just surrounded me to see my execution. It was terrible for me to spend three hours there. Destiny could hardly play a worse joke than this. I knew I was not what I was taken to be & yet I could not find any way out of this.

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Sciences reproduces spiritual experience
The Neurology of the Spiritual Experience
An essay in hypertext by Scott Bidstrup
Hearing the Voice, Seeing the Vision
The experience of the 'infinite sublimity' as Einstein described it, is an old one. Rock paintings in Australia, Africa, Europe and the Americas show clearly that the shamanic experience of the mystical goes back to the earliest times in human history. And the experience of the mystical is a common one. Millions of Americans can describe 'out-of-body' experiences, many more can describe 'near death' experiences. Many more can talk about how, in a blinding flash of an all-consuming experience, they have felt, even seen the presence of Jesus, the Virgin Mary or of any other particular religious personality. They talk about how, in minutes, or hours, or even days, they had experiences that convinced them that God is real, Jesus or whoever else is real, and that there is no question but what there is a guiding presence in their lives.

With all that testimony, the testimony of millions, how could science doubt the reality of the experience?

For many scientists, the whole question of the "god experience" was a matter they didn't want to undertake - not because they feared the outcome, but because they feared the difficulty of undertaking the research. With a reductionist view, trying to explain an experience that was not reproducible in the laboratory made the whole investigation of the spiritual experience to be one that was far too difficult to research, and one that was unlikely to be reproducible to the extent that research could be published and verified.

All that has changed.
Viola! Instant God Experience!
Dr. Michael Persinger, working at Laurentian University, in Sudbury, Ontario, Canada, has pioneered a method for inducing the religious, spiritual experience of the shaman. Without drugs, herbs, hypnosis or invasive surgery, he can quite literally flip a switch and induce the experience of "god."

Using an ordinary striped yellow motorcycle helmet, which he has modified with electromagnetic coils, he can place the helmet on your head, connect the wires to a device he has constructed that generates the proper signals, and when the magnetic fields produced by the coils penetrate the skull and into the temporal lobes of the brain, the result is the stimulation of those lobes and a religious experience results.

In common with the Hindu view that a confrontation with God is a confrontation with the self, the nine-hundred plus people who have undertaken the experience produced by Dr. Persinger's helmet have had some very profound experiences. Four out of five say that they've had experiences so profound they would be life-changing had they not understood the mechanistic underpinnings of what they had experienced.

How does Dr. Persinger's helmet work? It works by inducing very small electrical signals with tiny magnetically induced mechanical vibrations in the brain cells of the temporal lobes of the brain, located in the skull just above and forward of the ears. These lobes are the portions of the brain that produce the "Forty Hertz Component" of the brainwaves detected in electroencephalograms. These mysterious "forty hertz components" are present whenever you are awake or when you are in REM sleep. They are absent during deep, dreamless sleep. What the "forty hertz component" does is not well understood, but we know that it is always present during the experience of "self." We cannot have a "me" experience without the forty hertz component being present.

What this means is that the forty hertz component is essential to our experience of self. We cannot experience our sense of individuality without it. It stands to reason, then, that if the forty hertz component could somehow be suppressed, the sense of individuality would be suppressed with it, and indeed, this is what Dr. Persinger's helmet does. It turns off the forty hertz component and with it the sense of individuality which your brain uses to define "self" as opposed to "rest of the world."

When the brain is deprived of the self stimulation and sensory input that is required for it to define itself as being distinct from the rest of the world, the brain 'defaults' to a sense of infinity. The sense of self expands to fill whatever the brain can sense, and what it senses is the world, so the experience of the self simply expands to fill the perception of the world itself. One experiences becoming "one with the universe."

But What About the God Experience?
There are two temporal lobes in the brain, one on each side. The one on the left, in most people, is the dominant one, responsible for language, which becomes dominant when we first learn language as children. The one on the right, non-dominant, contributes to the sense of self with constant communication with its opposite colleague. But being on the far side of the brain, sometimes the communications get out of whack, often as a result of stress or disease, and the forty hertz component falls out of sync. When this happens, the result is that the normally silent right-hand sense of self becomes experienced as a separate presence by the left-hand sense of self.

This is the experience of the God presence. There is an overwhelming sense of presence, an inescapable feeling that someone is there. But when the forty hertz component is deeply attenuated or entirely absent from, say, the left side, and there's no "self" experience occurring, the feeling of unity with infinity is occuring with a sense of an overwhelming presence resulting from the continued operation of the right hand side, there is no way to describe it other than feeling that one has experienced the "infinite presence." Hence the God experience.

All of this has been verified not only experimentally with Dr. Persinger's helmet, but by use of high-tech brain scanning machines similar to the CAT and MRI scanners that many of us have experienced.

And The Sense of Timelessness in Prayer and Meditation?
Many deeply experienced meditators feel, when deep in meditation, an experience of transcendance of the here and now. They feel a sense of being outside of time and space. How is this experience produced?

We now know from the results of investigations using a brain-scanning technique called SPECT (Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography), how these experiences arise. Researchers have produced images of the brains of Tibetan Buddhists who undergo deep, profound meditative experiences as the result of years of practice. They have done the same with a Catholic nun, who, after 45 minutes of deep prayer, had her brain scanned to determine what centers were active and what centers were not.

The results show that in both cases, the pre-frontal cortex, which controls attention, is highly stimulated. The subjects are clearly deeply attentive to their task. But the superior parietal lobe, the center that processes information about space, time and the orientation of the body in space, is suppressed, and is almost totally quiet. The result is that there is no sense of time, space or being in the world. And not feeling "in the world" leads to an "other-worldly" experience. So it is not surprising that those who have this experience describe it as being in the "spiritual realm."

What About The Near-Death Experience?
The near-death experience that is described by many patients who have been revived from life-threatening events contain elements of all of these and a few more. We have seen how the presence of the "god" feeling arises from the result of a lack of communications between the temporal lobes. And we have seen how the sense of timelessness and infinite space arise. But what about the vision of the tunnel with the light at the end? And the sense of rising out of the body?

The sense of orientation is lost when the superior parietal lobe shuts down. The 'self' no longer feels anchored to the body, because the sense of self being in the body is lost, and one seems to be rising to 'heaven.' We now know that the vision of the tunnel is produced by the visual cortex being disconnected from sensory input, and beginning to shut down. Same with the light at the end of the tunnel, which is an artifact of the brain 'looking' for sensory input it cannot 'see.' The visions of a beautiful summer garden or lovely mountain landscapes are the result of the memory centers acting on the centers of the brain that organize visual input into things we recognize, which is operating in the near-total absense of sensory input. All of these brain activities together produce the familiar being of light at the end of a tunnel, and the entrance into the beautiful summer garden.

These experiences have a deep feeling of reality to them. This is simply because the centers of the brain that are producing the experience are cut completely off from sensory that would dilute the 'realness' of the experience. Hence, the subjects who report these experiences describe them as being so real they were not at all like a dream. Indeed, they weren't. They were dreams undiluted from sensory reality.

What Does All This Mean?
It is clear that the meaning of the understanding of these phenomena are easily explained in detail through well-understood neurological processes in the brain. What are widely regarded as evidence for the existence of a spiritual realm can easily be explained by the material, the mundane. So in the light of that reality, what does the religionist have to say?

Those who have communicated their interpretations to me say that they remain unconvinced that this means any new. I disagree. For most who write to me regarding my essays about the reality of a metaphysical universe, I have but one thing to say: your most powerful, persuasive evidence, namely your own powerful, personal experience, can now be easily and rationally explained, in all its features. No metaphysical explanation is necessary. Because no metaphysical explanation is necessary, your evidence is no longer evidence of anything metaphysical.

So now, religionist, how do you prove your case?
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Books I recommend (which, if you wish, you can buy from Amazon.com by pursuing the links here):
Why God Won't Go Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Belief, by Andrew Newberg M.D., Eugene G. D'Aquili Ph.D., Vince Rause. This book is a great explanation of the biology in this essay. Frequently cited by both religionists and atheists alike, this book explains the physical basis of the 'god' experience, without being a polemic against religion. At the same time, it also undermines the position that the experience of God is a purely spiritual phenomenon, without a physical basis. While some of the book is wasted in philosophical musings, the explanation for the biology of religious experience is there, and is reasonably complete.

The Mystical Mind: Probing the Biology of Religious ExperienceEugene G. D'Aquili and Andrew B. Newberg. This book is one of the more comprehensive books on the subject. A complete and thorough explanation, it does not get lost in the arcanities of neurophysiology. If you can read Scientific American, you'll be able to comprehend this book. It's one of the best around.

The Demon Haunted World: Science As A Candle In The Dark is Carl Sagan's last book, and in it, he predicts the outcome of the research outlined in the books above years before the work was done. Its prescience is classic Carl Sagan.

Above Source URL: http://www.bidstrup.com/mystic.htm
...........

http://www.uncwil.edu/people/bergh/par495A/ReadingPersinger.htm
Inner Experiences

Persistent patterns of reported experience would be due to electrical coherence (Brazier, 1972) through which structures, typically not coordinated, display brief interaction. Systematic access to (1) infantile memories of parental images (perhaps even perinatal representations proprioception), and (2) images from before four to five years of age and memories for which there are no retrieval formats, could occur. Both would be attributed to extrinsic ("ego-alien") sources (Mahl, Rothenberg, Delgado, & Hamfin, 1964), and be incorporated within experiences that share similar neuroelectrical patterns. The former would be a universal source of God (parent surrogate) images while the latter would foster conclusions of "previous lives" or "other memories." Complex sequences are influenced simply by the numbers of structures incorporated into the TLTs. Since they are primarily positive experiences, the responsible neuronal aggregates should be near fields of reward neurons. To some extent, all of these experiences have been evoked, in a fragmented manner, by crude surgical stimulation (Gloor, 1972; Horowitz & Adams, 1970). They include out-of-body experiences (mental diplopia), vestibular sensations (spinning through time-space), auditory experiences (rushing sounds, the voice of god or a spirit creature giving instructions), perceptual alterations (looking down a tunnel; bright lights), and peacefulness. Like direct cranial stimulation, the experiences may be perceived in a dream atmosphere. Since neuronal ensembles associated with the "sense of self" are also recruited, TLTs have great personal significance whose privacy is protected. The hypothesis predicts that there exists a temporal lobe syndrome containing experiential aggregates that reflect its function (Ervin, 1975). Repeated, intense hallucinogenic TLTs should be followed by and reciprocal to delusions (Weinstein, 1970). Extreme and bizarre symptoms, such as circumstantiality, a sense of the personal (egocentric references; divine guidance), viscosity (perseveration), hypergraphia (diary writing), altered affect, and, of course, a dominating religiosity occupy one of the continuum. They would be evident as interictal behaviors in populations with various stages of temporal lobe epilepsy (Geschwind, 1983) or temporal lobe psychosis (Bear & Fedio, 1977). Less severe displays, which are woven within the dynamics of borderline or "soft" temporal lobe signs and do not involve disorders in thought processes, constitute the central region of the scale. Typical symptoms would include: early morning highs (0200 to 0400 hr.), déja-vu experiences, vibration sensations before sleeping, "waves of energy permeating the body," recurrent vivid dreams, intense meaningfulness after reading material about unusual or unexpected situations, feelings of unreality (depersonalization), peaceful at quiescent episodes of diffuse concentration, memory blanks, experiencing the presence of other beings, the special personal significance of chance events and the distortions in serial order of events (telepathic/precognitive experiences). They are normal responses; only their frequency or duration of occurrence and the degree to which they dominate the person's behavior predict the potential pathology.
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A study was conducted on Transcendental Meditation (kundalini)
by the German Institute for Youth and Society

http://www.trancenet.org/research/index.shtml
Here are some highlights of their findings:
* 76% of long-term meditators experience psychological disorders
-- including 26% nervous breakdowns
* 63% experience serious physical complaints
* 70% recorded a worsening ability to concentrate
* Researchers found a startling drop in honesty among long-term meditators
* Plus a detailed examination of the history,
culture, and secret teachings of the TM movement.
Summary of Effects of TM Meditation (kumndalini yoga):
Effects of the TM Program
1. No specific or broad scale special benefits
2. Adverse effects in social relationships
3. Partially impaired mental faculties
4. Loss of self-determination and motivation
5. Derealization and depersonalization
6. "Ego-alien" and epileptic-like experiences
7. A high percentage of psychological disorders
8. Aggravation of preexisting mental illness
9. The onset of mental illness
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Dr. David Lane, editor of Faqir Chand Unknowing Sage says
However, while I agree that the disciple is really a chump to PROJECT all sorts of psychic junk upon a guru figure........ there is no getting around the REAL crux of the problem:

The Beas Lineage has de facto nurtured a concept that the gurus are PERFECT MASTERS (God incarnate) and, as such, have the power to do anything.

This is the real problem.

And Sawan, Charan, Jagat, and Gurinder are directly to blame for perpetuating this fraud.

Everything else is merely a footnote.

That is why Faqir Chand argued that these gurus were robbers and thieves.

What did they steal?

The disciple's innocence, naiveness, projections, desires, love, good will, and hope.

This is a much greater sin than stealing their property.

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Note : Julian Johnson
Julian Johnson was killed in a fight at the Dera when he walked into his bungalow and caught a man making love to his Indian wife.

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The Serpent Power, Aurthur Avalon (Sir John Woodroffe)
"The hearing of the nadi sounds is included under Pratyahara, and under Dharana the rousing of kundalini." Page 223, The Serpent Power, Aurthur Avalon (Sir John Woodroffe), Madras, 1964, 7th edition

But, whereas the Jnana-Yogi attains Svarupa-Jnana by his mental efforts WITHOUT ROUSING KUNDALINI, the hatha yogi gets this Jnana through kundalini Herself. Buddhi itself becomes Laya and the Yogi attains the true unmodified state of the Atma, in which the Jivawho is then pure Buddhi is merged in Prakrti and the Brahman, as salt in the waters of ocean and as camphor in the flame.

Kundalini as Mahamatrka-sundari has 51 coils, which are the Matrkas, or subtle forms of the gross letters or Varna, which is the Vaikhari form of the Sabda at the centers. Kundalini when with one coil is Bindu; with two, Prakrti-Purusa; with three Saktis .... In the body, unmanifested Para-shabda is in Kundalini-Sakti. That which first issues from it is in the lowest chakra, which extends upward through the rest as Pasyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari-Sabda.

Yoga therefore is the method whereby mental intellection and feeling and Prana are first controlled and then stayed. When the Citta, Vrtti, and Prana are stilled, then Cit, or Paramatma stands revealed. It supervenes without further effort on the absorption of matter and mind into the primordial Power (Sakti), whence they sprang, of whom they are manifested forms, and who is Herself as Siva one with Him who is Siva or Consciousness.

The arising of such a state is called Samadhi... the experience is achieved after the absorption (Laya) of Prana and Manas and the cessation of all ideation (Samkalpa). Until then there is that fluctuation and modification which is the mark of conditioned consciousness, with its self-diremption of "I" and "Thou".

--------
KUNDALINI SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS
by El Collie
Many individuals whose Kundalini has been unexpectedly unleashed DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING, and the prevailing social ignorance about this multidimensional transformative process makes it hard to find medical or alternative health practitioners or spiritual advisors who recognize the symptoms, particularly when they are strongly physical. Many people know that the risen Kundalini flings open gates to all sorts of mystical, paranormal and magical vistas but few realize it can also dramatically impact the body. A large percentage of our old Shared Transformation newsletter subscribers reported long bouts of strange illness as well as radical mental, emotional, interpersonal, psychic, spiritual and lifestyle changes. Over and again we hear stories of frustrating, sometimes desperate visits to doctors, healers, counselors, etc. who neither understood nor were able to help with the myriad pains and problems catalyzed by raging Kundalini.

This letter is typical of the hundreds we receive from people struggling with strange symptoms and Kundalini illnesses:

The following are common manifestations of the risen Kundalini:

Muscle twitches, cramps or spasms.

Energy rushes or immense electricity circulating the body

Itching, vibrating, prickling, tingling, stinging or crawling sensations

Intense heat or cold

Involuntary bodily movements (occur more often during meditation, rest or sleep): jerking, tremors, shaking; feeling an inner force pushing one into postures or moving one's body in unusual ways. (May be misdiagnosed as epilepsy, restless legs syndrome (RLS), or PLMD.)

Alterations in eating and sleeping patterns

Episodes of extreme hyperactivity or, conversely, overwhelming fatigue (some CFS victims are experiencing Kundalini awakening)

Intensified or diminished sexual desires

Headaches, pressures within the skull

Racing heartbeat, pains in the chest

Digestive system problems

Numbness or pain in the limbs (particularly the left foot and leg)

Pains and blockages anywhere; often in the back and neck (Many cases of FMS are Kundalini-related.)

Emotional outbursts; rapid mood shifts; seemingly unprovoked or excessive episodes of grief, fear, rage, depression

Spontaneous vocalizations (including laughing and weeping) -- are as unintentional and uncontrollable as hiccoughs

Hearing an inner sound or sounds, classically described as a flute, drum, waterfall, birds singing, bees buzzing but which may also sound like roaring, whooshing, or thunderous noises or like ringing in the ears.

--------------
xxxx
Masters such as Darshan Singh and Sawan used to to say the consciousness is raised, without kundalini being touched. Kabir talks of the kundalini, so did Nanak, Amar Dass, Angad and Gobind. If you take a Yogananda successor such as Paramhansa Hariharinanda, he gives almost exact light and sound initiation as sant mat, as does Yogananda group proper. The inner planes are identical as are the inner sounds. How do they raise the kundalini with the exact method sant mat uses, and sant mat people only raise their consciousness out ?

xxxxx
Written by a Kirpal historian (his views)
Charan threatened to sue Kirpal
I have read this line of David Lane many times and I am always surprised by this. Treasure Beyond Measure clearly indicates that Charan Singh made vigorous early efforts to evade his fate (becoming the Guru) , finally concluding that he had no choice but to accept the guruship. Given his total social circumstance, family relations, etc., he may have felt he had no choice, that he was trapped, with not way out, however painful and difficult it was for him.

Yet, even then, he had the integrity to clearly and plainly say that he made no claim to any spiritual attainments whatsoever, a very bold and honest statement under the circumstances.

In a private letter allegedly written by Kirpal Singh in late 1951, a definite attempt by Charan Singh to arrange his early abdication is described. This letter was circulated back to Beas and a law suit was threatened and an apology demanded, likely regarded as a face saving action on the part of the Beas administration.

Kirpal Singh did apologize for the letter, agreeing that he had been misinformed, thereby avoiding a messy legal confrontation. However, both the booklet, Truth Triumphant, and Darshan Singh in private conversation, emphatically declared that the allegations of an arrangement by Charan Singh to abdicate in favor of a relative, with promises of financial support as an inducement to said relative, after the lapse of a year or so, were true, had emanated directly from Beas, and that the apology was merely to avoid a court engagement. Lane dismisses this due to his slavish adherence to literalism under all circumstances: since Kirpal Singh apologized it invalidates the content of the letter attributed to him, as if the apology were prima facie evidence of the illegitimacy of the content). However, in the context of all that we now know, particularly since Treasure Beyond Measure, the allegation of Charan SinghÕs attempted abdication seems perfectly credible.

(In a strange twist of fate, the circulation back to Beas of Kirpal Singh's alleged letter may have indirectly brought the scheme to an end.)

Therefore, I disagree with David's position on this. I feel that Charan Singh did everything he reasonabley felt he could. He was constrained from going all the way with his feelings by family and cultural forces to which he was deeply bound.

xxxxxxxx
During Sawan's life Jesus Christ was considered a 2nd plane master. During Charan's life he was considered a full Sant.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Word Mark SANT MAT

Owner Name (REGISTRANT) RADHA SOAMI SOCIETY BEAS - AMERICA

Owner Address 18 Countryside Drive Hutchinson KANSAS 67502 NON-PROFIT CORPORATION CALIFORNIA

Attorney of Record Anne DeNieto Risk

Serial Number 75-128078

Registration Number 2102969

Filing Date 07/01/1996

Registration Date 10/07/1997

Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING

Register PRINCIPAL

Published for Opposition 07/15/1997

Type of Mark SERVICE MARK

----

Yogananda was embalmed 24 hours after death
Autobiography of a Yogi book forgot to mention this

Self Realization Fellowship, 3880 San Rafael Avenue, Los Angeles 65, California, Gentlemen: The absence of any visual signs of decay in the dead body of Paramhansa Yogananda offers the most extraordinary case in our experience. Had the muscle protein and blood stream of the deceased not been comparatively free of bacteria, deterioration of the body could have set in as early as six hours after life had departed. No physical disintegration was visible in Paramhansa Yogananda's body even twenty days after death. The body was under daily observation at the Mortuary of the Forest Lawn Memorial Park Association from March 11, 1952, the day of the last public rites, until March 27, 1952, when the bronze casket was sealed by fire. During this period no indication of mold was visible on Paramhansa Yogananda's skin, and no visible desiccation (drying up) took place in the bodily tissues. This state of perfect preservation of a body is, so far as we know from mortuary annals, an unparalleled one. Officials of Forest Lawn viewed the body of Paramhansa Yogananda an hour after his death on March 7, 1952. The body was then taken to his home on Mount Washington in Los Angeles, where many friends gathered to gaze at his form. For protection of the public health, embalming is desirable if a dead body is to be exposed for several days to public view. Embalming of the body of Parsmhansa Yogananda took place twenty-four hours after his demise. In normal room temperature, the enzyme action of the intestines of deceased persons causes distention of the tissues in the abdominal region about six hours after death. Such distention did not occur at any time in the case of Paramhansa Yogananda. When our Mortuary received his body for embalming, it presented no signs of physical deterioration and no putrefactive odor; two very unusual absences when a death has occurred twenty-four hours earlier. Paramhansa Yogananda's body was embalmed on the night of March 8th, with that quantity of fluid which is customarily used in any body of similar size. No unusual treatment was given. In cases of persons that are embalmed and exhibited to friends for a period of two or three weeks, it is necessary, to insure presentability, for the embalmer to apply, on the face and hands of the deceased, a creamy pore?sealing emulsion that temporarily prevents the outward appearance of mold. In Paramhansa Yogananda's case, however, no emulsions were used. They were superfluous, inasmuch as his tissues underwent no visible transformations. After embalming on the night of March 8th, the body of Paramhansa Yogananda was returned to the Self Realization Fellowship headquarters on Mount Washington. At the final public rites there on the afternoon of March 11th, the glass sealer lid of the bronze coffin was fastened securely and was not again removed. His body was never touched again by human hands. The body in the casket was taken about 10 p.m. on March 11th to our Mortuary for daily observation. The reason for this procedure was the hope of Self?Realization Fellowship officers that two disciple of Paramhansa Yogananda's from India might arrive in Los Angeles sometime in March, when they could be brought to the Mortuary to view the body. In any sealed casket, into which air cannot enter and from which air cannot escape, the internal moisture of the dead body, whether'embalmed or unembalmed, soon forms a white mold on the skin unless the protective cream, not used in this case, is used. The natural characteristic of the muscle protein is to break down into amino acids and then into ptomaine acids. When ptomaine acids become active, deterioration of tissues is rapid. Paramhansa Yogananda's body was apparently devoid of any impurities by which muscle proteins could be resolved into ptomaine acids. His tissues remained intact. At the time of receiving Paramhansa Yogananda's body, the Mortuary personnel at Forest Lawn expected to observe, through the glass lid of the casket, the usual progressive signs of bodily decay. Our astonishment increased as day followed day without bringing any visible change in the body under observation. Paramhansa Yogananda's body was apparently in a phenomenal state of immutability. On the late morning of March 26th, we observed a very slight, a barely noticeable, change the appearance on the tip of the nose of a brown spot, about one?fourth inch in diameter. This small faint spot indicated that the process of desiccation (drying up) might finally be starting. No visible mold appeared, however. The hands at all times remained normal in size, revealing no signs of shriveling or pinching at the fingertips the place where desiccation is ordinarily seen very early. The lips, which wore a slight smile, continuously retained their firmness. No odor of decay emanated from Paramhansa Yogananda's body at any time. Although the casket was closed by the heavy glass lid, it was not hermetically sealed. Any odor from the deceased, had it been present, would have been immediately detected by persons standing near the coffin. The volatile nature of odors renders it impossible to conceal their presence, except in rare circumstances that did not here obtain. As word had been received that the two disciples from India would not be coming to America until 1953, the officers of SelfRealization Fellowship agreed, on March 27, 1952, that entombment of Paramhansa's casket should now take place. The inner glass lid was therefore sealed by fire to the lower part of the casket; the massive bronze cover was then placed on top and secured with mastic sealer and with bolts. The process of sealing by fire was accomplished on March 27th and 28th. The casket was removed on March 28, 1952, to a crypt in the Great Mausoleum in Forest Iawn Memorial Park, to remain there until such time as permanent enshrinement of the body can be arranged for by the Self Realization Fellowship. The physical appearance of Paramhansa Yogananda on March 27th, just before the bronze cover of the casket was put into position, was the same as it had been on March 7th. He looked on March 27th as fresh and as unravaged by decay as he had looked on the night of his death. On March 27th there was no reason to say that his body had suffered any visible physical disintegration at all. For these reasons we state again that the case of Paramhansa Yogananda is unique in our experience. On May 11, 1952, during a telephone conversation between an officer of Forest Lawn and an officer of Self Realization Fellowship, the whole amazing story was brought out for the first time. Previously the Fellowship officer had not known the details, as he had not been in touch with the Mortuary Director but only with the Administrative Department of Forest Lawn. In the interests of truth, we axe glad to present this written account for publication in Self Realization Magazine. Yours sincerely, FOREST LAWN MEMORIAL PARK ASSOCIATION, INC.. Harry . Rowe, Mortuary Director

[Mike Wiliams]

Yogananda's Sexual Indiscretions #1 [-]

Posts: 31
(07/09/06 06:30:51)
One can only guess what Yogananda's sex life
would have been like. While I find it doubtful that he was in any way
debauched or excessive in his sexual practices, I also find it
doubtful that he never had sex.

It has been rumored that he initiated certain people into yoga
practices even higher than Kriya, and that these were sexual in
nature - this would not surprise nor bother me.

Whatever Paramahansa Yogananda was, he was certainly an embodiment of
the Sacred Hermaphrodite - this tenet is conceded by many devotees
and even monastics. From my understanding of sexual dynamics, I would
postulate that he was neither heterosexual nor homosexual.

The only real clues in relation to his sexual life I have come
accross are subjective. The first and most obvious is his rather
obvious affection for James Jesse Lynn, who are seen holding hands in
movies, meditatiing shirtless on the beach together, etc. The second
clue I've found is from the ubiquitous image of young Faye Wright
kneeling before a fatherly Yoganda - which photo provides no proof of
anything - but nevertheless leads me to intuit that there was no
sexual relation whatsoever between Yogananda and Daya Mata.

On a side note, I believe that Daya Mata was placed into Yogananda's
organization to become successor as part of a Masonic design for SRF.
Before you, reader, dismiss this as far-fetched conspiracy mumbo
jumbo, consider the following: If one is to compare the historical
formation of three American "religions" - Mormonism, Jehova's
Witnesses, and SRF, one can easily discern the invisible hand of
Freemasonry.

Mormonism is solidly based on the a purely Masonic Scheme. Faye
Wright is known by most SRF devotees to have been raised Mormon. The
repugnant Jehova's Witness cult is all too obviously controlled at
the top by Masons, probably B'nai B'rith judging by the original name
of Watchtower Magazine which was "Zion's Watchtower." Also suggestive
of B'nai B'rith influence on the Jehovah's Witness organization is
the name of Judge Rutherford's palace - paid for by followers - "Beth-
Sarim" in San Diego.

It shouldn't be too much of a stretch to discern apparent similarites
between Rutherford building a palatial mansion in San Diego, and
Yogananda / Lynn building one in Encinitas.

Used Yogi Re: Yogananda's Sexual Indiscretions #2 [-]

Posts: 315
(07/09/06 20:32:12)
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Ignore User's Posts I just figured Yogananda got so many Mormons
into SRF because they were the best source of teenage girls in the
country. How many other places would Yogananda have been able to get
a 14 year old girl like Mrinalini Mata? An orphanage wouldn't have
left teenage girls in his care in the Christian-dominated early 1900s
United States (and Territories).

I don't think Yogananda necessarily started out with sexual designs
on the girls in his care (or the boys). But maybe over time the
temptation was too much for him. When the Bakers and Jimmy Swaggert
were having problems I heard an interview with Billy Graham. Billy
told the interviewer that he was a married man and didn't want to
fall to temptation, so he did things like made sure his office door
was always open when he was meeting with his secretary. Not that I'm
a great Billy Graham fan, just saying that he realized anyone can
fall to temptation and he took steps to try to guard himself against
it.

The strongest Masonic connection to SRF was with Brahmachari Jotin /
Swami Premananda. He was a 32nd degree Mason. His fellow Masons
helped him build the SRF temple in Washington, D.C. He went his
separate way because of problems with Yogananda's relations with
women. I heard that once Nerode's wife was driving Premananda to
Mount Washington after picking him up at the train station or
something. Nerode's wife told Premananda what Yogananda was doing
with women there. Premananda had to have the car stopped, got out,
and vomited.

I don't think he said another word about it but he did distance
himself from Yogananda after that. Yet he corresponded with Yogananda
on occasion. It wasn't as dramatic a split as with Dhirananda or
Nerode. After Yogananda passed away, Swami Premananda (who was born a
Brahmin) performed Yogananda's Vedic funerary rites at Mount
Washington.

Then SRF told him they wanted the D.C. center, and Premananda told
him it wasn't exactly his to give because it had been built with help
from his fellow Masons and his followers. That ended the connection
between Premananda and SRF. Get in between SRF and money and look out!

The timing of the Universe makes me wonder. I just finished watching
the Monty Python's Flying Circus episode with The Architect Sketch
about how to spot a Mason and how to give up being a Mason.

Used Yogi

srflongago enforced discretion #3 [-]

Posts: 343
(07/20/06 10:16:45)
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Ignore User's Posts The SRF legal department can be documented as
having sent two day "remove or else we'll sue you" notices to those
posting detailed information on this topic. This can entail non-
recoverable substantial legal costs for defense, despite a lack of
legal grounds in the US for such a suit. One cannot defame a dead
public figure according to US law.

The law is not the same in England and other places, and the web is
world wide. So I will post no specific information on this topic, but
only those statements published in the past, which I personally
believe to be true.

His reputation for non-celibate behaviour with women involved women
of all ages, some plain, some beautiful, starting in the late 1920's.
Dhirananda concluded later that Yogananda had started this behavior
in the mid 1920's, when he became an adulate social lion.

He almost always told the women that he was their husband in a
previous reincarnation, sometimes William the Conqueror, sometimes
Richard the Lion hearted, etc., whatever would be well received.

These accusations first arose in connection with the women he
travelled with (Kamala- Isobel Buchanan, Tara Mata- Laurie Pratt),
with Ben Erskine's mother (she was his devoted student till her
death), with angry husbands who drove him out of Miami (one of his so
called "crosses to bear", an incident documented by British consul
records), with young beautiful hollywood hopefuls, and with various
members of his congregation, some with angry husbands.

Remember that both Dhirananda and Nerode left him when they came to
this conclusion, one in 1929, one in 1939.

When enough time passes and the threat of causing legal expenses
dissipates (in 20 years, 200 years?), expect documents to surface
which will better allow the historically minded to evaluate his
character.

If SRF wanted the truth to be established, I assume they would stop
spending money to repress stories and documents about him, open
whatever records they have, and take oral histories of everyone who
knew him. There have been no such efforts that I can discern.

I view him as a "mixed bag". He had a lot to offer in bringing Kriya
to the States, but had serious faults. I view his destructive
mercurial temper, his self-centeredness, and his vindictiveness as
substantially greater faults for a Yogi than consensual sex or
extreme overeating.

I view his early work with Dhirananda as very worthwhile and worth
reviving in its pure form. I do not have a high opinion of his later
ministry, or of what it has now become.

divine gypsy Re: enforced discretion #4 [-]

Posts: 12
(07/21/06 16:55:53)
Banned User
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Ignore User's Posts Since Dhirananda's own son was estranged from
him because of his abusive treatment, I don't see Dhirananda as a
great model of yogic wisdom. And Ben Erskine's mother may have been
a "devoted student" of Yogananda until her death, but she was
basically a vegetable because her of her husband's electroshock
treatment of her mental illness (at least according to Ron Russell).

I don't see it as very fair to withhold specific allegations against
Yogananda until any parties who may have been there are dead, but
have fun anyway. I have yet to hear of any credible women (or men)
who have complained of sexual misconduct of PY against them
personally.

Grainne Uaile Re: enforced discretion #5 [-]

Posts: 1368
(07/24/06 16:07:34)
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Ignore User's Posts Divine Gypsy,

I am curious. How many witnesses would it take to convince you that
Yogananda had affairs?

Used Yogi William "the Conqueror" #6 [-]

Posts: 315
(07/24/06 22:36:02)
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Ignore User's Posts
Divine Gypsy,

I don't know of a story of Yogananda raping a woman -- forcing sex on
her unwillingly. But his "bubble bath" initiations of gauze-clad
women are well known. Even by today's liberal standards that would be
seen as a clerical figure abusing his authority by putting followers
in sexually compromising positions (no pun intended).

Nerode's wife once drove a young woman from the top of Mount
Washington to the bottom of the hill when she ran out crying because
of what Yogananda wanted her to do with him. Another woman walked all
the way down after a similar incident. Maybe to Yogananda it was a
purifying ritual. Heck, maybe it was even a well-established tantric
ritual from India with a tradition that went back millenia. But to
those young women it was at best inappropriate conduct with sexual
overtones.

Yogananda's telling various women that he was their husband in a
previous incarnation is also well known. So is his telling disciples
of both sexes that they were drawn to him in this life because they
had unfinished karmic issues to work through together. But I didn't
know of his saying that to try to get them in bed and I don't
personally know of an example where it happened, though others I
trust do say they have personal knowledge. Maybe his calling himself
William "the Conqueror" should have tipped them off. (Sorry, the
devil made me do it!)

I was shocked when I first started learning about that side of
Yogananda. I didn't want to believe it. I knew there was no way it
could be true. Then I started thinking about what an ordinary guy
would do if surrounded by beautiful women who adored him and would do
anything for him. His guru warned him that a even a saint could fall
to sexual temptation.

The lawsuit in Miami was also public. He was run out of town by
husbands who sued because of inappropriate conduct with their wives.
He appealed the verdict and lost the appeal. As a British subject, he
even got in trouble with the British government over it. He provided
the British consul with statements that he was a loyal British
subject, etc., etc., in order to avoid the British government
forcibly deporting him back to India.

I have heard from a source I trust who was around at the time that
Dhirananda didn't state everything he knew about Yogananda in his
lawsuits against him because Yogananda could very well have finally
wound up being deported. That would have painted a bad image of all
of India in the US because Yogananda was the most public Indian
figure in the US at the time. So for this reason Dhirananda
didn't "tell all" in his lawsuits. He just wanted some part of his
share of the money Yogananda was taking in from their mutual work
when he could no longer work with him.

In a biography of Yogananda or Yukteswar available somewhere on the
net (I think yoganiketan.net), it mentions Yukteswar saying when they
saw Dhirananda off to sail to America to help Yogananda that it would
not end well.

Yogananda also supposedly entered nirbikalpa samadhi around 1948. He
later said that he had all kinds of faults before entering that
state, when God took them away. That reveals a human, approachable
side to someone SRF tries to paint as Mary Poppins-like "practically
perfect in every way." (Come to think of it, Mary Poppins was kinda
bossy and I'm glad she wasn't MY nanny.)

But I do appreciate your trying to keep everyone honest to make sure
unfounded accusations don't fly around!

Used Yogi

Grainne Uaile Re: enforced discretion #7 [-]

Posts: 1368
(07/25/06 03:49:48)
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Ignore User's Posts No one ever wants to believe that their guru had
been having affairs. Ananda folks still believe Walters to be
innocent, as do those in Siddhi Yoga, and on and on. When a woman
writes a letter of complaint or even complains personally, she is not
believed. I found this to be true even in Vedanta, where a woman
wrote a letter of complaint and sent it to the head of all of the
Vedanta centers. The gurus just said, "She was jealous and emotional
unstable." This all reminds me of many times that therapists sleep
with their clients, and when the clients expose them, the therapists
get away with it because they can say, "She is crazy." You wouldn't
believe how many times I have heard Vedanta swamis dismiss people by
saying that they were "emotionally disturbed" because they were upset
over how they were being treated by the swamis. SRF does the same.

"Since Dhirananda's own son was estranged from him because of his
abusive treatment, I don't see Dhirananda as a great model of yogic
wisdom." I have not heard this about Dhirananda, but let's put a
twist on it: "Since many of Yogananda's disciples left because of his
abusive treatment, I don't see him as a great model of yogic wisdom."
Perhaps, Dhirananda was trying to "destroy his son's ego" just as
Yogananda was trying to destroy his disciple's. And instead of
destroying those egos, they actually lower their self-esteem, which
in turn can make them more easy to control.

I am not sure that Ben's mother was a vegetable. She certainly wasn't
a vegetable when she slept with Yogananda. She wasn't one when she
was out in the desert taking care of Ben. I am not sure if she truly
was mentally ill, unless the stress of her life caused it, but
husbands in those days could easily have their wife's committed. And
they could ask to have shock treatments performed of them. I never
heard of a shock treatment causing one to become a vegetable, but
that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen, but I have read about
lobotomies doing so. I am not saying that she did or didn't become
mentally ill. What I am saying is, what does it have to do with Ben
in this case, since she never spoke up as to who was the father of
her son? What is the reason why SRF and you tend to discredit her.
SRF does exactly what many people do in order to discredit an
allegation, which is to claim that people who are a threat to them
are "mentally ill." Lawyers do it every day.

Grainne Uaile Re: enforced discretion #8 [-]

Posts: 1368
(07/25/06 07:52:38)
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Ignore User's Posts This note came in today's mail in regards to
Dhirananda:

As I recall in the July, 2001, Ron Russel's article titled, The
Devotee's Son featured in the LA New Times tabloid, Ron had called
Vanu Bagchi and gotten some statements from him over the phone. One
of them I believe was that his father abused him. What Vanu meant was
that his father whipped him when he misbehaved. That was not that
unusual with fathers in his father's generation i.e., the 1940's and
50's. Men whipped their sons if they misbehaved. Vanu felt this was
wrong and always held it against his father. But I think his father
saw flaws in his character and was trying to correct them. His father
expected him to act properly at all times. Remember his father was
Indian from a Brahmin family and he came from a very, very discreet,
disciplined family. Discipline is built into one's character.

I told Vanu one time that if he felt his father was tough on him, he
had no idea how tough my father was on my brothers. If my brothers
had misbehaved during the day and my mother told my father when he
came home from work, then they got the ole fashion lickin' before
supper! And it was not a tap on the rear! Now nobody, but nobody
wanted to get their father down on them in those days, believe me.
All my father had to do was give you just a look of reproval and you
knew you better shape up, but quick!

Grainne Uaile Re: enforced discretion #9 [-]

Posts: 1368
(07/25/06 07:55:13)
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Ignore User's Posts This came from Lorna in regards to her mother-in-
law:

"It was the lst of January 1959. Ben and I had been married three
weeks. We were going back to Ben's job on the Bonneville Salt flats
in Utah for what I thought would be our permanent home. We went to
Ben's Mother's house to say goodbye. I felt extremely tense. She was
a tiny but rotund woman with ivory white skin and like Ben, rarely
spoke. We walked into the back door and could see her puttering in
the kitchen. She motioned for us to sit at the table. She brought two
bowls of ice cream over and put them in front of us, then she opened
a can of peaches, poured half on my ice cream juice and all, the
other half on Ben's. I said thank you, the first words spoken since
our arrival. I picked up a spoon from the spoon holder on the table
and tested this 'new to me' dessert. Mama went into her bedroom and
came out with pen and paper. She began folding the paper in such a
way that made me think she was making a paper airplane. She unfolded
the paper that now I could see was all triangles. She looked at me
and asked "what day in March were you born?" I told her. "what time?"
I told her. She began making little symbols in various places on the
paper. I was horrfied,I thought my new Mother-in-law was telling my
fortune. She kept turning the paper, thinking then drawing. I looked
at Ben's face and saw that he was smiling and gazing on his Mother
with real joy! I had been taught that this sort of thing was not O.K.
Until I saw the look on Ben's face, I wanted to jump up and run like
hell. She finished it up just as I managed to choke down the last of
her offering. She began to talk, "you were a sickly baby and almost
did'nt live" I nodded, "You will be in love all of your life and you
will live in the woods, You have so many children I can't tell which
are yours and which aren't". The baby part I knew was true but we
were going to live in the dessert and she was way off on the woods
part. She went on with about 14 things at the end saying "you will be
called 'Sister' by many". Well I knew that wasn't true because I was
married now and would never be a 'sister'. We went in and said
goodbye to Robert, then walked back to the kitchen, hugged Mama and I
couldn't get away fast enough. I was eighteen years old and if only I
could go back to that night and appreciate her for who she really
was. Ben and I got in the car. I said "well, your Mom finally talked"
I could have sworn I saw a tear in his eye. He said "what she just
did made me really happy!" I asked him why. Then he told me that he
thought the shock treatments had 'fried' her brain but he now knew it
was all still there. He also could tell that she loved and cared
about me."Did you tell her my birthday was in March?" Ben said he
hadn't but then reminded me that his Mom had a way of 'knowing'
things.Rarely does a day go by that I don't think about that night
and how I wish I would have kept that paper and written down
everything she said."

And she does live in the woods, and she is called "sister" in her
Mormon faith. Plus, she raised many children, some of which were not
her own but who still call her "mother."

Used Yogi to my fellow former zygotes #10 [-]

Posts: 315
(07/25/06 18:30:38)
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Ignore User's Posts Someone mentioned that SRF tested mitochondrial
DNA. I'm not any kind of expert on this stuff, but the description on
Wikipedia was pretty informative.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_dna

Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is DNA that is located in mitochondria.
This is in contrast to most DNA of eukaryotic organisms, which is
found in the nucleus. It is often stated that 100% of the mtDNA
contribution to a zygote is inherited from the mother, although this
is controversial and may not be true for all organisms.

Unlike most of the cell, the function of which is defined by nuclear
DNA, mitochondria have their own DNA and are assumed to have evolved
separately. Human mitochondrial DNA consists of 5-10 rings of DNA and
appears to carry 16,568 base pairs with 37 genes (13 proteins, 22
tRNAs and two rRNAs) which are concerned with the production of
proteins involved in cellular respiration. However many proteins
found in the mitochondria are encoded by nuclear DNA: some, if not
most, are thought to have been originally part of the mitochondrial
DNA but have since been transferred to the nucleus during evolution.

There is little change in the mtDNA from parent to offspring, unlike
nuclear DNA which changes by 50% each generation. Since the mutation
rate is easily measured, mtDNA is a powerful tool for tracking
matrilineage, and has been used in this role for tracking many
species back hundreds of generations.

However, mtDNA is very rarely used any longer in court cases, as it
can be contaminated very easily. Simply touching or breathing on a
sample may contaminate it.

...and so on, but later in the entry it does say

However, it has also been proven that about 1-2% of a person's
mitochondria can be inherited from the father

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

Does anyone know more about the technical side? If what this
Wikipedia entry says is true, testing mitochondrial DNA looks at the
mother's line, not the father's. So it sounds like comparing Ben's
mitochondrial DNA to mitochondrial DNA from Yogananda's relatives
would test to see how related Ben's mother was to the female line of
Yogananda's relatives. There shouldn't be much of a match at all.

Is that the case? If so, then one of two things are possible: either
SRF had no idea what they were doing, or SRF knew exactly what they
were doing and wanted to arrange a test that had the greatest chance
of coming out negative. There is probably a 50/50 chance of either
possibility.

Depending on what happened, the DNA expert they supposedly hired
either was a sham expert who flim-flammed them (wouldn't be the first
time a consultant did that to them) or conspired with SRF to arrange
a test with a high probability of showing no relation. Again, given
how consultants have raped SRF for money over the years, there is
probably a 50/50 chance of either possibility.

Used Yogi

divine gypsy Re: enforced discretion #11 [-]

Posts: 12
(07/25/06 18:32:09)
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Ignore User's Posts Ron Russel, New Times LA, July 5,2001:Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Not long after the swami's death, Erskine says, his mother blew up in
anger at one of his half sisters. Although married, the sister had
moved back home, and his mother threw her things out of the
house. "When my stepfather got home, he was livid. He said, "Well, I
know what to do about that.' And he took her to Norwalk to a mental
hospital and had her committed." Erskine calls it "a pure act of
spite. She was a brilliant woman. There was nothing wrong with her.
But a few days after she was taken there we got a phone call saying
that they had given her electroshock treatments. And it was the end
of her." Upon coming home soon afterward, he says, his mother "was
ruined emotionally" and scarcely uttered a word. In fact, after she
was admitted to a nursing home in the mid 1950s she hardly spoke
during the last four decades of her life, relatives say. When his
mother's mind started to go, Ben Erskine went to Texas to work as a
roughneck in the oil fields. After getting married, he moved to Utah,
where he was a millwright at a salt mine before settling in the
Pacific Northwest. In the 1970s, he became a Mormon, like his mother
had been before she met the swami. All of his children have grown up
in the understanding and belief that Yogananda was their
grandfather. "It's something we've always been taught to be proud
of," says Melissa Simpson, 38. Never wishing to do anything to damage
his "father's" reputation as a celibate and a saint, Erskine says he
deliberately chose not to speak of Yogananda outside a circle of
family and friends.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

New Times LA, Ron Russell, November 29, 2001Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
... Yet, Erskine has never claimed to know for certain who his father
is. He says his mother gave birth to him at home in the City Terrace
section of Los Angeles in January 1933, and that no birth certificate
was issued on his behalf. Adelaide Erskine suffered a breakdown
several years after Yogananda died, and was unable to communicate
effectively for the rest of her life. She died in 1996 a few months
short of what would have been her 100th birthday.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

Used Yogi Re: enforced discretion #12 [-]

Posts: 315
(07/25/06 18:43:06)
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Ignore User's Posts Divine Gypsy,

As far as I know Ben's mother was loyal to Yogananda till the end and
would never answer whether or not Yogananda was Ben's father, or say
anything at all negative about Yogananda. She was totally devoted to
him.

Grainne,

I think these posts should be moved into the "Ben and DNA" section.
Is it easy to move?

Used Yogi

divine gypsy Re: enforced discretion #13 [-]

Posts: 12
(07/25/06 18:50:11)
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Ignore User's Posts GU, as far as how many witnesses it would take
to convince me that PY had affairs, it would make a difference if I
heard one credible one. Anil was 5 or 6 at the time. His mother
thought PY had affairs, but his father didn't. No young women that
I'm aware of from the 1920s or 30s have come forward to make
accusations, although Anil says he will make their information known
when everyone involved is dead. I'm sorry, but that isn't convincing
to me.

As far as Ben's paternity goes, I'm more than willing to listen to
evidence presented in a court case, but the Erskines have dropped
theirs and seem to prefer to present a hearsay case. That simply
isn't persuasive to me.

Anil has previously made the error about mitrochondrial DNA being
related to a father, which it isn't. Why would mitochondrial DNA
(ie., maternal line transmission) be used to prove a paternal case?
That makes no sense.

Again, if the Erskines wish to challenge SRF's evidence in court, I
wish they would do so. The type of nitpicking I've seen seems like
simple wishful thinking.

[Mike Williams]

Yogananda's group burning old books

They practice same surat shabda yoga as Radhasoami, with almost identical initiation.

The only reason SRF would want people to send them their old SRF or
East-West magazines is to get them out of circulation permanently.
They want to continue trying to change what Yogananda said to suit
their purposes (for example, to say that the monastics are superior
to everyone else when we all know they are just humans who have opted
out of society at large).

From a post

Re: Book burnings, anyone? #4 [-]

Posts: 1368 Yogananda SRF
(12/09/06 10:01:37)
hi,

okay my friend got more information on this. there was a 4 or 5 page
brochure telling people what they can donate, such as stocks, bonds,
IRA accounts, Realty, retirement funds, cash, etc. Now I know that it
is possible to write a 5 page letter like this because I once went to
a certain Buddhist group, got my name on the list, and was sent such
a packet. The Ammachi ws not in this packet but in a letter, and the
SRF magazines were perhaps in another letter, and my friend believes
it could have just been sent to ministers. This person has heard this
from two people so far.

Someone else told this person that SRF has an underground where they
have a barracks and lots of food in case they ever need it.
.....
Book burnings, anyone? #3 [-]

Posts: 50
(12/09/06 01:35:51)
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Ignore User's Posts Hey, gang. Well, well. Wonder what they are
going to do with all those old books? I feel vindicated in my former
posting of the story of my friend in India who lost all her old East-
West mags when the Ranchi monks "borrowed", and then burned them.
Isn't it interesting how truth, in one form or another, eventually
bubbles to the surface?

And, people who don't like vishwawhatshisname? Can't imagine why,
other than possibly his "truth" is beginning to surface. Methane has
a way of turning people off.

I'll echo the request for somebody to post the wording of this
remarkable document of control by the exhalted ones.

......

Grainne Uaile wrote:
Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
there was a 4 or 5 page brochure telling people what they can donate,
such as stocks, bonds, IRA accounts, Realty, retirement funds, cash,
etc. Now I know that it is possible to write a 5 page letter like
this because I once went to a certain Buddhist group, got my name on
the list, and was sent such a packet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

I can verify this one. I received a huge envelop from them, the
biggest I ever got from them, I think. It was bigger than what the
Lessons and catalogs come in. But it wasn't quite as large as a
manila envelope.

I thought it was particularly offensive that the largest thing I
receive from them in the mail in a decade or so, is a thing filled
with huge forms and brochures suggesting all the ways that I should
send them money, including signing over property and savings to them
when I die! I never seen SRF so bold in going for the pocket book
before in a mailing sent to the general SRF public.

At first, I thought it was them sending me legal documents that they
filled against me
--------
SRF: It's all about the money #6 [-]

Posts: 315
(12/10/06 16:43:02)
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Ignore User's Posts Well, well, well. SRF is finally "getting
religion" and being honest. It's all about the money. Always has
been, always will, but at least now they are making no apologies.

Do you suppose SRF is on the verge of going broke, to the point where
they might have to (gasp!) sell some of their real estate?

If Sister Daya did throw out all the old Yogoda materials in 1957,
then so much for SRF's line about existing to "keep the teachings
pure" that we heard ad nauseum from SRF ministers. That is how they
justify SRF's existence. Don't ask me how they justify spending 50
years editing Yogananda's Gita commentaries and then try to call
them "pure".

Cussacat, I forgot that it was you who told the tale of woe of your
friend in India loaning East-West magazines to the swamis in YSS only
to have them burn them behind her back. Thank you for helping to open
people's eyes about SRF/YSS.

If they did go in Yogananda's crypt, it would have to have been with
the cooperation of Forest Lawn officials. I would like to think that
SRF wouldn't want to risk gettin caught skulking around the cemetary
in the dead (no pun intended) of the night, breaking into the
building housing his crypt, and breaking into his crypt. Then again,
who knows.

We already know that Yogananda's body is not incorruptible, because
Forest Lawn reported in their letter that a brown spot was forming on
his nose. SRF doesn't print that part of the letter in their
publications. They slant the truth to make it appear that Yogananda
was incorruptible as some kind of divine sign.

If they broke the seal of the crypt, that would have accelerated
Yogananda's deterioration.

Here's a morbid conjecture: Yogananda always wore a gold crucifix.
When he died, he was laid to rest wearing it. SRF embarked on an air
brushing frenzy to remove the crucifix from all of his pictures. Then
someone realized there was one place where they hadn't covered it up:
his corpse.

I hope that's not true, but from all I have learned about the SRF
cult, you never know.

Used Yogi

Used Yogi All gave some, some gave all #7 [-]

Posts: 315
(12/10/06 20:46:43)
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Ignore User's Posts I thought of the complete folly giving
everything you have to SRF. I mean, there are all kinds of places you
can leave your money and property where it will actually be used for
some good purpose. SRF buying more real estate doesn't count as a
good purpose!

This also brought to mind the life of "The Singing Nun." She wrote
the "Dominique, -nique, -nique" song that rose to number 1 in the
charts in America in 1963. It was such a hit it topped "Louie,
Louie." Most Americans didn't even know what it meant (it was in
French), but loved the melody. It helped that it was introduced as a
single in time for the 1963 Christmas season.

She released the recording to raise money for her convent, and gave
all the proceeds to her convent. After all, she had taken a vow of
poverty.

Her Mother Superior was not that happy with the song, which she
thought belittled the founder of their order.

Later she left the convent and started a school for autistic
children. When she left the convent, the Belgian government decided
she owed back taxes on the royalties she got as a nun. Then they
pursued her relentlessly. The Church wasn't about to fork over money
to the government.

In the end, facing complete ruin at the hands of the Belgian
government, she committed suicide.

Granted, that was a little different because she was a nun at the
time she gave all she had to the Church.

There's a website about her at www.singingnun.net but I haven't read
it.

Used Yogi

cussacat Re: All gave some, some gave all #8 [-]

Posts: 50
(12/11/06 04:28:31)
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Ignore User's Posts Hey, gang. Cheeez, somebody call Laura Croft and
let's get to the bottom of the tale of the crypt.

Talking about the fundraising stuff, these people live on image.
There are so many expenses involved with a Disney type operation like
this. Just think of the grounds bills alone: even with slave labor,
it's got to be really big. Then you have a whole organization filled
with nonproducing mouths to feed. The collective begging bowl has to
be huge.

Finally, G., about the methane analogy. The point was being made,
that truth has a way of bubbling to the surface. (Inconvenient
Truth?) The analogy of the methane was, well how to put this? OK,
the "coonasses" among you are familiar with swamp gas. These are
bubbles of gas which work their way to the surface of a swamp, or to
be more politically correct, wetland. It comes from the rotting
organic matter of various origin, at the bottom of the bog. Now, in
this case, the "truth" about what's on the bottom is revealed when
one gets close enough to get a whiff. You don't have to dig up the
bottom to prove the point of what's down there.

Now, if that doesn't do it for you, think the "f" word......no, not
that one, the other one. (Rymes with part) Anyhow, they're made
basically of methane. You draw the conclusion about where the methane
came from by its, well, aroma. Another truth bubbling to the surface.
Now, in speech classes they taught us that an analogy falls apart,
eventually, so I'll not take this one any further than right here.
The dictionary def. of methane, by the way, identifies it as a
colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas. Don't believe it.

Or, maybe I've just got a warped sense of humor.

In the meantime, have fun.

---------------------------------
Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
somebody call Laura Croft and let's get to the bottom of the tale of
the crypt.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

From pictures, it appears that Yogananda is in one of those wall
vaults (I forget what they're called). I'd assume this would be
locked in some fashion where just anyone can't just slide it open.
And getting through that, his actual crypt must be sealed pretty well
to help preserve the corpse (and also to avoid unsaintly odors from
wafting about in the mausoleum). The heavy glass lid would have to be
pried off with a crowbar or something, possibly causing damage, or at
least scratch marks (I'd imagine). And his decay would be accelerated
by opening it.

So you'd have this team breaking into the Forest Lawn Mausoleum with
crowbars making all this commotion in there. If they somehow managed
to get away with this without getting arrested, they would be
desecrating the crypt and speeding the decay of their own guru just
to snatch a cross off his corpse. Seems unlikely. And unless SRF has
ninjas, I don't think that they could pull it off.

Used Yogi, very interesting story on The Singing Nun! I never heard
of her before.
--------
Re: Nuns & Ninjas #11 [-]

Posts: 143
(12/11/06 19:48:29)
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Ignore User's Posts I went to the crypt at Forest Lawn in Glendale
about twenty years ago and PY's slot was definitely up on the wall.
There were four nuns just standing there looking at it. I had gone to
pay homage and perhaps to find a new place with uplifting vibrations
to meditate, but the whole thing was uncomfortable and macabre.

I know that there is a long yogic tradition of meditating in
cremation grounds and graveyards etc., but in the crypt at Forest
Lawn I could detect nothing but an unhappy, antiseptic, deathly
sterility.
-----------------------
Re: All gave some, some gave all #13 [-]

Posts: 1368
(12/12/06 04:03:10)
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Ignore User's Posts I just learned that they were also in the crypt
in 1962, unless that is the time frame that my friend is talking
about. anyway, it takes 4 days to open the crypt, so they would need
the help of the forest lawn crew.

swamp gas. cussacat, that is great and it works. in place of srf we
say sgf.

Used Yogi Roll Over, Beethoven #14 [-]

Posts: 315
(12/12/06 04:25:33)
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Ignore User's Posts I've figured out why they would go into his
crypt!

With all their "approved" editing changes after his death and other
shennanigans, they wanted to make sure he wasn't rolling over in his
grave.

Used Yogi

YellowBeard420 Re: Roll Over, Beethoven #15 [-]

Posts: 1704
(12/12/06 11:02:59)
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Ignore User's Posts

After hearing from more knowledgeable folks on these matters, it
looks like the "glass lid" I mentioned was used for funeral services.
The actual crypt Yogananda is entombed in is sealed concrete 2 - 4
feet thick according to Scott Drolet, co-chair director at Forest
Law, which jackhammers are needed to open.

These crypts aren't really designed to be opened. So no one is
realistically getting in there without court orders and a major
operation to open it up.

Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
YellowBeard, -Beard, -Beard,
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

Grainne Uaile Re: Roll Over, Beethoven #16 [-]

Posts: 1368
(12/12/06 15:48:56)
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Ignore User's Posts That was great used yogi. a close friend of mine
suggested that maybe they wanted to see if the mold on his nose had
grown.

i wonder if srf would have needed a court order in 1962? or even now?
You know me, I wonder about these things. I mean does money really
talk? Hey, that is why SRF needs our money when we die, to pay off
Forest Lawn.

yogi999 roll over Beethoven #17 [-]

Posts: 15
(12/12/06 22:10:41)
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Ignore User's Posts If srf already opened the tomb in 1962 and found
nothing but rotting clothing and a decaying corpse, why would they re-
re-open the tomb a second time?
What do the good monastics of SRF and YSS (and I do mean the good
ones, I believe there are respectable people still serving in the
order, I think I remember the name Bhavananda, a YSS monk) think of
this I wonder. What did Bhaktananda think about this before his
passing, not that he wasn't totally devoted to PY and would't dismiss
this as unimportant.
I also received the SRF packet explaining how you can leave a major
portion of your childrens inheritance to SRF (give us your real
estate, your life insurance, your 401K,...)...it seemed a very direct
pandering for excessive donations to a church in want of cash (but we
have to remeber the mormon church requests a 10 % tithe life-long of
its members gross income to be considered a member in good standing
and be allowed entry into their main temples) so SRF isn't the only
church in the we-need-your-money game (I don't single out the mormon
church because their the only ones who do this). SRF blew $40 million
on the ananda lawsuit ans $10 million in useless accounting software
they can't use. BUT, with only a few thousand lonely old people
willing to donate their life savings to SRF every year it may not
take long for them to recover.

Bhaktananda lived his life in a studio apartment the size of a large
closet and daya Mata lives in a palace purchased by Doris
Duke...the "avatar's" founding principles were altered immediately
upon his death by his successor daya who is "self-realized'
and "always aware of a praying devotee" (i.e. omnipresent and
omniscient). send money now for the good of the organization.

I like and am inspired what I read in Yogananda's writings but the
real core of the current organization is really disgusting, and I
don't see it getting better. Plus if you see people who have
supposedly meditated and practiced Kriya for decades behaving in a
way you see to be less than impressive, what does that say about the
techniques...is it really going to be worth your time? Does it really
work? When you see the leadership of SRF behaving this way the "don't
blame the tools,...dive deeper to find the pearls of wisdom and
spirituality" stuff doesn't mean much.

Grainne Uaile Re: roll over Beethoven #18 [-]

Posts: 1368
(12/13/06 04:23:31)
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Ignore User's Posts yogi999, thanks for your post. i have a feeling
that the person who told me about the crypt being opened was thinking
of the '62 opening. i will call and find out today.

You are good about putting this all in respective in regards to
churches and money. some churches never require it. Yet, you do have
to buy their books. While the Mormons ask for 10 percent, so do many
other churches. Buddhists also sell books. I have only been in one
Buddhist group that never sold their books, but gave them away, never
asked for money except when I wanted to get a robe, which would have
cost me $20, but the abbot said to give it to me. The cushions were
$20 but that was all that ever cost. Lunches were also free. But that
is rare. For me, I expected much more of SRF, in spite of the fact
that they made you buy their books, and if you couldn't afford them,
forget you. For they had no library. At least I thought, Vedanta had
a library from which you could borrow books, providing you lived
close enough to go there. And yet the guru asked me for money when I
was initiated. Seems like life is about money.

Bhaktananda lived in a small room. Daya the mansion. That is
heartless.

It was my understanding that SRF changed the day Yogananda died, and
some think he was poisoned. Who really knows? I heard a story by an
long time resident in Encinitas. He said after PY died, they put a
barbed wire fence around the ashram.

I always wondered what they spent on Ananda. That is amazing. No
wonder they need the devotees money.

Grainne Uaile Re: roll over Beethoven #19 [-]

Posts: 1368
(12/13/06 05:42:16)
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Ignore User's Posts I wrote to srflongago about the opening of the
crypt:

"A friend told me that they had opened up yogananda's crypt. Do you
know anything about it? I felt it was recent, but I know about the
time in 1962 when it was opened."

Srflongago: "I heard the same thing. But a California lawyer told me
that a court order is required to open up any burial (that is,
literally open the coffin), and that such court orders are
exceedingly rare and have to have a strong justification. So I have
my doubts."

Grainne Uaile Re: roll over Beethoven #20 [-]

Posts: 1368
(12/15/06 05:02:19)
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Ignore User's Posts okay, the story has been revealed to me,
finally. Someone went by the crypt and then told my friend that the
seal was broken. My question would then be, "How long has it been
like that?" "Since 62?" "Is the seal really broken, or does it just
look that way?"

-------------------------------------

The only reason SRF would want people to send them their old SRF or
East-West magazines is to get them out of circulation permanently.
They want to continue trying to change what Yogananda said to suit
their purposes (for example, to say that the monastics are superior
to everyone else when we all know they are just humans who have opted
out of society at large).

From a post

Re: Book burnings, anyone? #4 [-]

Posts: 1368 Yogananda SRF
(12/09/06 10:01:37)
hi,

okay my friend got more information on this. there was a 4 or 5 page
brochure telling people what they can donate, such as stocks, bonds,
IRA accounts, Realty, retirement funds, cash, etc. Now I know that it
is possible to write a 5 page letter like this because I once went to
a certain Buddhist group, got my name on the list, and was sent such
a packet. The Ammachi ws not in this packet but in a letter, and the
SRF magazines were perhaps in another letter, and my friend believes
it could have just been sent to ministers. This person has heard this
from two people so far.

Someone else told this person that SRF has an underground where they
have a barracks and lots of food in case they ever need it.
.....
Book burnings, anyone? #3 [-]

Posts: 50
(12/09/06 01:35:51)
Reply Quote MoreMy Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite
Ignore User's Posts Hey, gang. Well, well. Wonder what they are
going to do with all those old books? I feel vindicated in my former
posting of the story of my friend in India who lost all her old East-
West mags when the Ranchi monks "borrowed", and then burned them.
Isn't it interesting how truth, in one form or another, eventually
bubbles to the surface?

And, people who don't like vishwawhatshisname? Can't imagine why,
other than possibly his "truth" is beginning to surface. Methane has
a way of turning people off.

I'll echo the request for somebody to post the wording of this
remarkable document of control by the exhalted ones.

......

Grainne Uaile wrote:
Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
there was a 4 or 5 page brochure telling people what they can donate,
such as stocks, bonds, IRA accounts, Realty, retirement funds, cash,
etc. Now I know that it is possible to write a 5 page letter like
this because I once went to a certain Buddhist group, got my name on
the list, and was sent such a packet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

I can verify this one. I received a huge envelop from them, the
biggest I ever got from them, I think. It was bigger than what the
Lessons and catalogs come in. But it wasn't quite as large as a
manila envelope.

I thought it was particularly offensive that the largest thing I
receive from them in the mail in a decade or so, is a thing filled
with huge forms and brochures suggesting all the ways that I should
send them money, including signing over property and savings to them
when I die! I never seen SRF so bold in going for the pocket book
before in a mailing sent to the general SRF public.

At first, I thought it was them sending me legal documents that they
filled against me
--------
SRF: It's all about the money #6 [-]

Posts: 315
(12/10/06 16:43:02)
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Ignore User's Posts Well, well, well. SRF is finally "getting
religion" and being honest. It's all about the money. Always has
been, always will, but at least now they are making no apologies.

Do you suppose SRF is on the verge of going broke, to the point where
they might have to (gasp!) sell some of their real estate?

If Sister Daya did throw out all the old Yogoda materials in 1957,
then so much for SRF's line about existing to "keep the teachings
pure" that we heard ad nauseum from SRF ministers. That is how they
justify SRF's existence. Don't ask me how they justify spending 50
years editing Yogananda's Gita commentaries and then try to call
them "pure".

Cussacat, I forgot that it was you who told the tale of woe of your
friend in India loaning East-West magazines to the swamis in YSS only
to have them burn them behind her back. Thank you for helping to open
people's eyes about SRF/YSS.

If they did go in Yogananda's crypt, it would have to have been with
the cooperation of Forest Lawn officials. I would like to think that
SRF wouldn't want to risk gettin caught skulking around the cemetary
in the dead (no pun intended) of the night, breaking into the
building housing his crypt, and breaking into his crypt. Then again,
who knows.

We already know that Yogananda's body is not incorruptible, because
Forest Lawn reported in their letter that a brown spot was forming on
his nose. SRF doesn't print that part of the letter in their
publications. They slant the truth to make it appear that Yogananda
was incorruptible as some kind of divine sign.

If they broke the seal of the crypt, that would have accelerated
Yogananda's deterioration.

Here's a morbid conjecture: Yogananda always wore a gold crucifix.
When he died, he was laid to rest wearing it. SRF embarked on an air
brushing frenzy to remove the crucifix from all of his pictures. Then
someone realized there was one place where they hadn't covered it up:
his corpse.

I hope that's not true, but from all I have learned about the SRF
cult, you never know.

Used Yogi

Used Yogi All gave some, some gave all #7 [-]

Posts: 315
(12/10/06 20:46:43)
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Ignore User's Posts I thought of the complete folly giving
everything you have to SRF. I mean, there are all kinds of places you
can leave your money and property where it will actually be used for
some good purpose. SRF buying more real estate doesn't count as a
good purpose!

This also brought to mind the life of "The Singing Nun." She wrote
the "Dominique, -nique, -nique" song that rose to number 1 in the
charts in America in 1963. It was such a hit it topped "Louie,
Louie." Most Americans didn't even know what it meant (it was in
French), but loved the melody. It helped that it was introduced as a
single in time for the 1963 Christmas season.

She released the recording to raise money for her convent, and gave
all the proceeds to her convent. After all, she had taken a vow of
poverty.

Her Mother Superior was not that happy with the song, which she
thought belittled the founder of their order.

Later she left the convent and started a school for autistic
children. When she left the convent, the Belgian government decided
she owed back taxes on the royalties she got as a nun. Then they
pursued her relentlessly. The Church wasn't about to fork over money
to the government.

In the end, facing complete ruin at the hands of the Belgian
government, she committed suicide.

Granted, that was a little different because she was a nun at the
time she gave all she had to the Church.

There's a website about her at www.singingnun.net but I haven't read
it.

Used Yogi

cussacat Re: All gave some, some gave all #8 [-]

Posts: 50
(12/11/06 04:28:31)
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Ignore User's Posts Hey, gang. Cheeez, somebody call Laura Croft and
let's get to the bottom of the tale of the crypt.

Talking about the fundraising stuff, these people live on image.
There are so many expenses involved with a Disney type operation like
this. Just think of the grounds bills alone: even with slave labor,
it's got to be really big. Then you have a whole organization filled
with nonproducing mouths to feed. The collective begging bowl has to
be huge.

Finally, G., about the methane analogy. The point was being made,
that truth has a way of bubbling to the surface. (Inconvenient
Truth?) The analogy of the methane was, well how to put this? OK,
the "coonasses" among you are familiar with swamp gas. These are
bubbles of gas which work their way to the surface of a swamp, or to
be more politically correct, wetland. It comes from the rotting
organic matter of various origin, at the bottom of the bog. Now, in
this case, the "truth" about what's on the bottom is revealed when
one gets close enough to get a whiff. You don't have to dig up the
bottom to prove the point of what's down there.

Now, if that doesn't do it for you, think the "f" word......no, not
that one, the other one. (Rymes with part) Anyhow, they're made
basically of methane. You draw the conclusion about where the methane
came from by its, well, aroma. Another truth bubbling to the surface.
Now, in speech classes they taught us that an analogy falls apart,
eventually, so I'll not take this one any further than right here.
The dictionary def. of methane, by the way, identifies it as a
colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas. Don't believe it.

Or, maybe I've just got a warped sense of humor.

In the meantime, have fun.

---------------------------------
Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
somebody call Laura Croft and let's get to the bottom of the tale of
the crypt.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

From pictures, it appears that Yogananda is in one of those wall
vaults (I forget what they're called). I'd assume this would be
locked in some fashion where just anyone can't just slide it open.
And getting through that, his actual crypt must be sealed pretty well
to help preserve the corpse (and also to avoid unsaintly odors from
wafting about in the mausoleum). The heavy glass lid would have to be
pried off with a crowbar or something, possibly causing damage, or at
least scratch marks (I'd imagine). And his decay would be accelerated
by opening it.

So you'd have this team breaking into the Forest Lawn Mausoleum with
crowbars making all this commotion in there. If they somehow managed
to get away with this without getting arrested, they would be
desecrating the crypt and speeding the decay of their own guru just
to snatch a cross off his corpse. Seems unlikely. And unless SRF has
ninjas, I don't think that they could pull it off.

Used Yogi, very interesting story on The Singing Nun! I never heard
of her before.
--------
Re: Nuns & Ninjas #11 [-]

Posts: 143
(12/11/06 19:48:29)
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Ignore User's Posts I went to the crypt at Forest Lawn in Glendale
about twenty years ago and PY's slot was definitely up on the wall.
There were four nuns just standing there looking at it. I had gone to
pay homage and perhaps to find a new place with uplifting vibrations
to meditate, but the whole thing was uncomfortable and macabre.

I know that there is a long yogic tradition of meditating in
cremation grounds and graveyards etc., but in the crypt at Forest
Lawn I could detect nothing but an unhappy, antiseptic, deathly
sterility.
-----------------------
Re: All gave some, some gave all #13 [-]

Posts: 1368
(12/12/06 04:03:10)
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Ignore User's Posts I just learned that they were also in the crypt
in 1962, unless that is the time frame that my friend is talking
about. anyway, it takes 4 days to open the crypt, so they would need
the help of the forest lawn crew.

swamp gas. cussacat, that is great and it works. in place of srf we
say sgf.

Used Yogi Roll Over, Beethoven #14 [-]

Posts: 315
(12/12/06 04:25:33)
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Ignore User's Posts I've figured out why they would go into his
crypt!

With all their "approved" editing changes after his death and other
shennanigans, they wanted to make sure he wasn't rolling over in his
grave.

Used Yogi

YellowBeard420 Re: Roll Over, Beethoven #15 [-]

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(12/12/06 11:02:59)
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Ignore User's Posts

After hearing from more knowledgeable folks on these matters, it
looks like the "glass lid" I mentioned was used for funeral services.
The actual crypt Yogananda is entombed in is sealed concrete 2 - 4
feet thick according to Scott Drolet, co-chair director at Forest
Law, which jackhammers are needed to open.

These crypts aren't really designed to be opened. So no one is
realistically getting in there without court orders and a major
operation to open it up.

Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
YellowBeard, -Beard, -Beard,
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

Grainne Uaile Re: Roll Over, Beethoven #16 [-]

Posts: 1368
(12/12/06 15:48:56)
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Ignore User's Posts That was great used yogi. a close friend of mine
suggested that maybe they wanted to see if the mold on his nose had
grown.

i wonder if srf would have needed a court order in 1962? or even now?
You know me, I wonder about these things. I mean does money really
talk? Hey, that is why SRF needs our money when we die, to pay off
Forest Lawn.

yogi999 roll over Beethoven #17 [-]

Posts: 15
(12/12/06 22:10:41)
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Ignore User's Posts If srf already opened the tomb in 1962 and found
nothing but rotting clothing and a decaying corpse, why would they re-
re-open the tomb a second time?
What do the good monastics of SRF and YSS (and I do mean the good
ones, I believe there are respectable people still serving in the
order, I think I remember the name Bhavananda, a YSS monk) think of
this I wonder. What did Bhaktananda think about this before his
passing, not that he wasn't totally devoted to PY and would't dismiss
this as unimportant.
I also received the SRF packet explaining how you can leave a major
portion of your childrens inheritance to SRF (give us your real
estate, your life insurance, your 401K,...)...it seemed a very direct
pandering for excessive donations to a church in want of cash (but we
have to remeber the mormon church requests a 10 % tithe life-long of
its members gross income to be considered a member in good standing
and be allowed entry into their main temples) so SRF isn't the only
church in the we-need-your-money game (I don't single out the mormon
church because their the only ones who do this). SRF blew $40 million
on the ananda lawsuit ans $10 million in useless accounting software
they can't use. BUT, with only a few thousand lonely old people
willing to donate their life savings to SRF every year it may not
take long for them to recover.

Bhaktananda lived his life in a studio apartment the size of a large
closet and daya Mata lives in a palace purchased by Doris
Duke...the "avatar's" founding principles were altered immediately
upon his death by his successor daya who is "self-realized'
and "always aware of a praying devotee" (i.e. omnipresent and
omniscient). send money now for the good of the organization.

I like and am inspired what I read in Yogananda's writings but the
real core of the current organization is really disgusting, and I
don't see it getting better. Plus if you see people who have
supposedly meditated and practiced Kriya for decades behaving in a
way you see to be less than impressive, what does that say about the
techniques...is it really going to be worth your time? Does it really
work? When you see the leadership of SRF behaving this way the "don't
blame the tools,...dive deeper to find the pearls of wisdom and
spirituality" stuff doesn't mean much.

Grainne Uaile Re: roll over Beethoven #18 [-]

Posts: 1368
(12/13/06 04:23:31)
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Ignore User's Posts yogi999, thanks for your post. i have a feeling
that the person who told me about the crypt being opened was thinking
of the '62 opening. i will call and find out today.

You are good about putting this all in respective in regards to
churches and money. some churches never require it. Yet, you do have
to buy their books. While the Mormons ask for 10 percent, so do many
other churches. Buddhists also sell books. I have only been in one
Buddhist group that never sold their books, but gave them away, never
asked for money except when I wanted to get a robe, which would have
cost me $20, but the abbot said to give it to me. The cushions were
$20 but that was all that ever cost. Lunches were also free. But that
is rare. For me, I expected much more of SRF, in spite of the fact
that they made you buy their books, and if you couldn't afford them,
forget you. For they had no library. At least I thought, Vedanta had
a library from which you could borrow books, providing you lived
close enough to go there. And yet the guru asked me for money when I
was initiated. Seems like life is about money.

Bhaktananda lived in a small room. Daya the mansion. That is
heartless.

It was my understanding that SRF changed the day Yogananda died, and
some think he was poisoned. Who really knows? I heard a story by an
long time resident in Encinitas. He said after PY died, they put a
barbed wire fence around the ashram.

I always wondered what they spent on Ananda. That is amazing. No
wonder they need the devotees money.

Grainne Uaile Re: roll over Beethoven #19 [-]

Posts: 1368
(12/13/06 05:42:16)
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Ignore User's Posts I wrote to srflongago about the opening of the
crypt:

"A friend told me that they had opened up yogananda's crypt. Do you
know anything about it? I felt it was recent, but I know about the
time in 1962 when it was opened."

Srflongago: "I heard the same thing. But a California lawyer told me
that a court order is required to open up any burial (that is,
literally open the coffin), and that such court orders are
exceedingly rare and have to have a strong justification. So I have
my doubts."

Grainne Uaile Re: roll over Beethoven #20 [-]

Posts: 1368
(12/15/06 05:02:19)
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Ignore User's Posts okay, the story has been revealed to me,
finally. Someone went by the crypt and then told my friend that the
seal was broken. My question would then be, "How long has it been
like that?" "Since 62?" "Is the seal really broken, or does it just
look that way?"

-------------------------------------

[Mike Williams]

The Truth about Yogananda's Incorruptible Body

Group has historical tie to Girdhari Das,
Guru of Swami Ji

Yogananda's Incorruptibility After Death Myth Lead [-]

In an article which appeared in the Rational Enquirer, The Skeptics
Newsletter for Western Canada, Leonard Angel, a professor of
philosophy at the University of Columbia, recounts how he
investigated the miracle which is reported in almost every Yogananda
publication put out by the Self Realization Fellowship (SRF), the
society founded and organised by Yogananda to propagate his
teachings:

After Death the Body of Paramahansa Yogananda Manifested a Phenomenal
State of Immutability. The story in Self-Realization Magazine (Los
Angeles) May 1952 issue; and in the national news weekly Time, August
4, 1952 reported that:

The great world teacher demonstrated the value of yoga (scientific
techniques for God-realization) not only in life but in death. Weeks
after his departure his unchanged face shone with the divine light
luster of incorruptibility. Mr. Harry Rowe, Los Angeles Mortuary
Director, Forest Lawn Memorial-Park (in which the great master is
temporarily placed) sent Self-Realization Fellowship a notarized
letter from which the following extracts are taken:
The absence of any visual signs of decay in the dead body of
Paramahansa Yogananda offers the most extraordinary case in our
experience...No physical disintegration was visible even twenty days
after death...No indication of mould was visible on his skin, and no
visible desiccation (drying up) took place in the bodily tissues.
This state of perfect preservation of a body is, so far as we know
from mortuary annals, an unparalleled one...At the time of receiving
Yoganandas body, the mortuary personnel expected to observe, through
the glass lid of the casket, the usual progressive signs of bodily
decay. Our astonishment increased day after day without bringing any
visible change in the body under observation. Yogananda's body was
apparently in a phenomenal state of immutability...No odour of decay
emanated from his body at any time...The physical appearance of
Yogananda on March 27th, just before the bronze cover of the casket
was put into position, was the same as it had been on March 7th.

Professor Angel was impressed, but not convinced. He obtained a copy
of Yoganandas death certificate from the Los Angeles Department of
Vital Statistics which confirmed that Yogananda had died on March
7th, the certificate of death being received by the registrar on
March 11 1952. However, the certificate also bore the signature
Kenneth I. Johnson, and the number 2641. It was contained in box #21,
above which were the words Signature of embalmer.

Confirmation that Yogananda had in fact been embalmed was found in
the full text of Harry Rowes letter in a little booklet entitled
Paramahansa Yogananda, In Memoriam, put out by the Self-Realization
Fellowship. It reads,

Paramahansa Yoganandas body was embalmed an the night of March 8th,
with that quantity of fluid which is customarily used in any body of
similar size.

So what was the miracle?

According to the full text of Harry Rowes letter the astonishment was
only due to the fact that the funeral home staff had not used any
creams in addition to the embalming fluid - a creamy pore-sealing
emulsion that temporarily prevents the outward appearance of mould.

A check with two independent licensed embalmers elicited the
following comments,

Im sure weve had bodies for two or three months with good
preservation. This is not unusual. Creams are not necessary,
and ...that preservation for 20 days through embalming is not
unusual. We can keep a body a month or two without interralan
embalming fluid with a lanolin base will have humecant which prevents
dehydration, which is the major concern...a heavy glass lid as is
described by Mr Rowe as being present on the casket, would prevent a
great amount of air circulation, and that in itself would prevent
most desiccation, so that would account for it.

Far from being a demonstration of yogic powers, a phenomenal state of
immutability or a miracle through the grace of the Heavenly Father,
it seems that any perception that a miracle had occurred was simply
the result of misleading selections taken from a misleading letter.

-- excerpt from "Incorruptibility: Miracle or Myth?", Harry Edwards,
November 1995
www.adam.com.au/bstett/Pa...bility.htm

YellowBeard420 Re: Yogananda's Incorruptibility After Death Myth #1
[-]

Posts: 1704
(11/10/03 09:17:49)
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Ignore User's Posts The statement of the director of Forest Lawn,
Harry T. Rowe, is accurate, but incomplete. Mr. Rowe also mentioned
that he observed a brown spot on Yogananda's nose after 20 days, as
sign that the body was not "perfectly" preserved. In any case, the
SRF's claim that lack of physical disintegration is "an extraordinary
phenomenon" is misleading. (One wonders how much digging into the
mortuary annals they did. Very little, I imagine.) The state of the
yogi's body is not unparalleled, but common. A typical embalmed body
will show no notable desiccation for one to five months after burial
without the use of refrigeration or creams to mask odors. According
to Jesus Preciado, who has been in the mortuary business for thirty
years, "in general, the less pronounced the pathology [at the time of
death], the less notable are the symptoms of necrosis." Some bodies
are well-preserved for years after burial (personal correspondence,
Mike Drake). Some, under extraordinary conditions, are well-preserved
for hundreds, even thousands, of years.

-- excerpt from "Incorruptible Bodies", Robert Todd Carroll
skepdic.com/incorrupt.html

[Mike Williams]

http://www.well.com/user/jct/

Radhasoami Beas Lineage Tree

*Note ; Spiritual Gems, 1980, p. 118-9 Sawan Singh says "Tulsi Sahib used to visit Swami Ji at Agra and used to stay with Him, and both were on very affectionate terms with each other". See Truth Unveiled, R.K. Khanna, p.1. Professor Puri's book also notes 'Tulsi did not die before he gave a glance to Swami Ji.' RS Agra confirms Tulsi and Girdhari relationship to Swami Ji. Legend has it Swami Ji immediately began his mission upon the death of Girdhari Das. That would be the 1861 date Swami Ji opened his satsang. Both Tulsi and Girdhari used the five name initiation, the same Swami Ji used. Tulsi's groups from Hathras, always considered Swami Ji a breakoff lineage from the beginning.
.........
Souvenir,1961,RS Dayalbagh,p.22, " Soami Ji once went to Tulsi Sahab at Hathras....and to Lucknow also to see Girdhari Das, chief disciple of Tulsi Sahab, when he was very ill before his death". Chachaji in his 1902 book called Girdhari "chief disciple", also.

..............

'Babuji' Madhav Prasad Sinha said, "Soamiji Maharaj had no guru. In conformity with the established convention, He used to treat Baba Girdhari Das Ji who was one of the chief disciples of Sahebji or Tulsi Saheb of Hathras, and who used to reside in Agra, as a guru, more or less in the same way as Kabir Saheb had treated Ramananand Ji." Biography of Babuji Maharaj,Agra,p.377,1971

Pre Swami Ji possible lineage :

Tulsi Sahib d.1843
Girdhari Das d. 1861? unknown
______________________________________
Agra lineage :
'Swami Ji' Shiv Dayal Singh 1861-1878,
'Hazur' Rai Saligram 1878-1898,
Brahm Sankar Misra 1898-1907,
'Bauji' Mahewari Devi 1907-1913,
'Babuji' Madhav Sinha 1909-1949(overlap woman guru)
end Agra gurus
________________________________
Beas lineage appx. :
1861-1878 Swami Ji,
1878-1884 Salig Ram,
1884-1903 Jaimal Singh,
1903-1907 Sankar Misra,
1907-1913 'Buaji' Maheswari Devi,
1909-1915 'Babuji' Madhav Sinha(overlap),
1915-1948 Sawan Singh,
1948-1951 Jagat Singh,
1951-1990 Charan Singh,
1990-current Gurinder Singh
end Beas gurus
.............
Note** Jaimal may have been initiated by Girdhari Das
(a Tulsi Sahib disciple), not Swami Ji.
______________________________________
1878-1894 Radhaji, Swami Ji's wife, was guru at Radhasoami Gardens. Chachaji, Swami Ji's brother, initiated for her. Chachaji died in 1911. Sudarshan Singh lived till 1935 and Babuji was his master when he died. When both Bauji and Chachaji died near the same time period, Sawan self proclaimed himself as master at Beas, as Agra had their hands full with the Dayal Bagh breakaway. Truth Unvarnished, S. D. Maheswari part 2,1970, p.193, states "Sawan Singh continued to owe allegiance to the Council during the time of Chachaji Saheb. Afterwards, under the influence of some of his hot headed and ill advised companions, he gradually became independent."
..................................
Remember, Beas claims Sawan was powerless and inept when Jaimal died. Jaimal said to go to Chachaji when he died according to Beas; and for the secrets of the sound currents in Sat Nam, not Sawan. Hence, Sawan goes from powerless and inept in 1904, to self proclaimed sat guru around 1913-1917.
..................
The beginning date for Jaimal as self proclaimed master, starts when Beas said he began initiations in 1884. From Dec.25, 1902, Jaimal and Sawan were only initiators for Agra Sat Gurus Misra, Bauji and Babuji Sinha. Jaimal appears as a wildcat in history, whom Chachaji tries to control. Jaimal died in Dec. 1903. Remember Jaimal told Misra he was 'not a sant'. Chachaji and Sudarshan were both under Council gurus from 1902 onward. It should be noted Jaimal had his house next to Salig Ram's ashram in Peepal Mundi and attended his satsangs. He accepted Salig Ram as successor to Swami Ji obviously, as he set up Radhasoami Satsang Beas and initiated with Radhaswami nam. He did not set up Sant Mat (T.M.) Satsang Beas. Dr. Agam Mathur in his book Radhasoami Faith says Beas attributes this Radhasoami name to Saligram.
.............
Since Salig Ram was the founder of the Radhasoami faith as Swami Ji stated in his last will, it's quite obvious you can't leave him out of the lineage. Hence most Beas satsangi's don't even know who started their own faith. Salig Ram did not give permission to Jaimal to initiate. Hence the break occured in 1884, when Jaimal first initiated without historical authority.
.................
Jaimal and Sawan may have had a room at Chachaji's satsangs after Swami Ji died, but remember, both Chachaji and Radhaji accepted Salig Ram as founder of RS Faith. Chachaji stated Salig Ram was the true Gurmukh and successor of Swami Ji. Salig Ram and Radhaji both accepted each other as successors to Swami Ji and had a close relationship.
..............
No mention is being made of Rai Bindraban, whom used 'satgur ram' as mantra when he acted as a full fledged guru. Brindraban was Swami Ji's younger brother whom acted as a guru in Oudh until his death in 1872. He had a substantial following and wrote a few books. He was initiated by Swami Ji whom endorsed his seperate satsang and activity. The group was somewhat different in philosophy from Swami Ji's. Basically a Guru Nanuk-shabd type religion. Brindraban's wife was mentioned in Swami Ji's will as one to have respect for and her arti was performed.
................
Salig Ram, founder of RS Faith, was Postmaster General of Uttar Pradesh. He wrote the massive RS philosophy in numerous volumes. When Sawan broke from Salig Ram's lineage he evidently lost rights to publish these books for Beas group. Sawan retired in 1911. In March 1910 Dayal Bagh group started its break away from the main lineage and in 1915 did so(Souvenir,1961,RS Dayalbagh,p.287). It appears the Council would not allocate enough money to Dayal Bagh and this caused a rift. It began one of the longest court cases in Indian history and went to the Supreme Court under the British. Sudarshan made it crystal clear the above Agra lineage was true and correct in his mind.
..................
'Babuji' Madhav Sinha acted as Sat Guru for the woman master 'Bauji' Devi from 1909 onwards till her death May 21, 1913....and then till 1949 his death (Biog. of Bauji(Devi),Agra,1983,p.15). Babuji Sinha acted for Bauji Devi till her death, as women couldn't function fully in the old days as guru. Babuji Madhav Sinha had been initiated by Swami Ji and he was blood relationship to Swami Ji's family. Bauji Devi was the sister of Sankar Misra. Hence, Beas lineage may actually have 4 sat gurus missing from their lineage, since we know Sawan considered Babuji Madhav Sinha as genuine and broke after Babuji Sinha had started to act as Sat Guru for Bauji Devi in 1909.
...........................
Babuji Madhav Sinha did not recognize Sawan's initiations as valid, nor did he consider Sawan a sant, according to court testimony. Sudarshan was sort of a popular friendly ambassador to the various groups. But, he stated in court Babuji Sinha was the sat guru of the time and his master as the prior Agra lineage gurus had been. Sudarshan also confirmed the excommunication of Jaimal in court, which he himself had signed as a member of the council and had introduced the resolution with a second from Babu Shyam Lal.
....................
S. D. Maheswari(personal secretary to Babuji)Correspondence Vol.2, 1962,p.257 says "Sudarshan Singh...offered all his earnings and belongings (cash, jewlery, house property...valued at several lakhs of rupees) as bhet to Babuji Sinha Maharaj and his Council and the Trust." Same page, " Pratrap Singh (Chachaji) handed over the Soami Bagh Garden to Hazur Maharaj ( Salig Ram) and Maharaj Saheb (Misra). Page 276, same book, Deposition of Lala Ajodhia Prasad, (Salig Ram's son) June 13, 1926, his deposition in Dayal Bagh suit stated, " I am president of RS Central Administrative Council...at Allahabad. .... The 28 names selected for the formation of the Council (in 1902) included the name of Baba Jaimal Singh. The name of Jaimal Singh was included because he had agreed that he would give up acting as a guru. ... He was given general power of initiation in the very first meeting of the Council. But, he did not stick to his undertaking and the said general power of initiation was cancelled." (Above quote also referenced pp.267-268, Privy Council Paper Book.) Adjohia became president of Council at Chachaji's death.
...............
Page 280 Correspondence Vol. 2 results of Council elections (those whom lost in balloting):#21 Kama Prashad Sinha,53 votes (he became master at Dayal Bagh in March 1910 breakaway and died 1913, don't confuse with Babuji Madhav Sinha); (Anand Swarup followed Kama in 1913 till d. 1937) ; #22 Baba Jaimal Singh, sadhu, Punjab, 36 votes; #25 Sadhu Garib Das, blind sadhu mentioned in Beas books at Serai Rohilla Delhi, (group faded out, became strange) 23 votes ; #26 Babu Shyam Lal of Gwalior, 16 votes (founder Dhara Sindh Pratap group). Page 281, same book, Chachaji's letters to Jaimal carried common salutation on top common for day and do not carry significance.
..........................
Beas records Sawan's first initiation July 24, 1904, 7 months after Jaimal died. Sawan stated it was necessary to have a living master, so that fake negative inner radiant forms of the master could be found out by their fake 'eyes' that could deceive the disciple. But, Sawan made it blantantly clear he was not a master when Jaimal died. Hence, he could have only initiated for the Council gurus until he magically turned into a Guru himself. Sawan changed Bachan 250 in Sar Bachan prose to say the initiate could visualize the form of the initiator, instead of the master in Beas versions. It is obvious why he did so.
....................
It should be noted there are hundreds of thousands of people in India that know Salig Ram was the founder of their faith, coming off that lineage, but Beas people seem to be completely in the dark, despite the fact their Sar Bachan book clearly states this in Swami Ji's last commandments shown as 19 paragraphs. (Sar Bachan, Beas, 1971, pages 20-23)Swami Ji says "My Mat were of Sat Nam and Anami, and Radha Swami Mat has been started by Saligram. Let this also go on."
........................
Maheswari also notes a few times Salig Ram had wished to create a body under the guidance of the sat guru and had a "rough scheme drawn out for the purpose" to keep certain persons from taking possession of satsang properties between guruships and "to administer for all time the properties of the Satsang" (under orders of Sat Guru if living), Correspondence Vol.2,p533, also Biography of Babuji, 1971,Agra,p.468. It appears Chachaji was fulfilling Salig Ram's desires in starting the Council.
.....................
S.D. Maheswari Correspondence,1962 vol.2,p.310 states Chachaji and family were unhappy guruship had left their family. But, Chachaji (and friends) "reconciled himself to the inevitable. On such ocassions it was Radhaji who pacified them and curbed these tendencies. Chachaji had so much attached himself to Hazur Maharaj (Salig Ram) that he was once or twice seen cleaning the drain of Salig Ram's house with a broom and a bucket of water."
...........................
Page 309 same book "after Swami Ji had departed some self seekers gathered round Chachaji and wanted to drag him into the vortex of gurudoom." Books by Dhara Sindh Pratrap group of Gawilor, which considered Chachaji as successor to Swami Ji, stated Chachaji replied to Swami Ji's approval of gurudoom if he so desired with the statement, "No, I do not want to be a master. I wish to remain a servant. I shall perform whatever service I can, while remaining as an humble servant." Other groups have similar quotes of Chachaji not wishing to be a guru.
..............................
It should be noted there are dates called 'manifested' dates. Such as 1885 for Salig Ram, 1902 Misra, 1909 Bauji Devi and 1858-1861 for Swami Ji. What this means is unclear, as these masters may have initiated in mass before these dates. It is best to think of manifestation as meaning full manifestation. Such as believers in Beas lineage might say Sawan manifested around 1915, even though he may have initiated since 1904. Some books not of Agra origin show 1907 as beginning of Dayal Bagh breakaway.
....................
Charan Singh stated upon his new guruship, "My love for (Sawan), and the commands of (Jagat Singh ) ... compel me to carry out the wishes of Sardar Bahadur Ji to serve the sangat and the Dera. I wish to tell the sangat quite frankly that I do not make any claims whatsoever to spiritual attainments. I do not find in myself even those excellences that a good satsangi should possess. These orders were communicated to me . . and I have no choice but to serve the Dera and the sangat according to his orders." Heaven on Earth, Daryai Lal Kapur,1986, Beas.
................
In Dec. 1932 Sawan signed an agreement with Dayal Bagh master Sahabji Maharaj to initiate his disciples with 'Radhasoami' instead of 'Sat Nam' and that Beas satsangis would accept Radhasoami as name of Supreme Creator. This was issued in Dayal Bagh Satsang newspapers. Sawan did not do so after agreement, Souvenir,1961,RS Dayalbagh,p.14.
..................
Soami Divyanand was initiated on orders of Swami Ji by Sanmukh Das and this is confirmed by an existent Sudarshan letter.
...........
Regarding Shiv Brat Lal; guru of Faqir Chand, he was not much accepted as a successor to Salig Ram because he had only met him 3 times, for a few days each time and did not start his satsang at Manavta Mandir until 7 years after Salig Ram died. Yet, Faqir Chand has become a great legacy as an honest Guru, whom no doubt was advanced beyond his contemporaries.
................
Maheswari's massive books usually only were produced in editions of 1000 copies. It is because of this few Westerners know the history of Beas. Dr. Agam Mathur's History of RS was scarcely circulated also and he was Vice Chancellor at Agra college. He is current master of Peepal Mandi group (called Dadaji) and rated a world class historian in his own right, having been a professor of history and the best living Radhasoami historian at this time. Maheswari wrote about 105 books on RS before his death. He often printed material and letters seemingly not positive to his own Agra lineage, or that he knew could be misinterpreted. Hence, he is known for excellent scholarship.

http://members.tripod.com/~santhakar/faqir/faqir-home.html

Radhasoami History 11

One of the most remarkable pieces of evidence against Jaimal's claim, that Swami Ji gave him permission to become a guru, comes from Chachaji's Biography of Soami Ji Maharaj, published in June 1902. In the 1978 edition from Agra, pages 120 - 123, Chachaji talks about a Sikh soldier in the 24th Regiment whom died while the group passed through Agra. Chachaji does not date incident. It is a rather meaningless story about the soldier's death. This is the same 24th Regiment noted on page 36, of Mark Juergensmeyer's 'Radhasoami Reality' published in 1991. Beas 'Spiritual Letters', 1976, page xviiii statistics, also confirms Jaimal joined the 24th Sikh Regiment as a Sepoy in 1856. Chachaji's book was published in 1902, about 6 months before Jaimal was allowed by the Council to initiate. Jaimal had not yet been reprimanded by Chachaji for pretending to be a guru. That happened in 1903 . What is so amazing, is that in Chachaji's 150 page book on the biography of his brother Swami Ji, two full pages are related to that soldier of the 24th Sikh Regiment . Chachaji does not even mention Jaimal in these two pages, nor anywhere in the book !!! Not even when Chachaji spoke of Jaimal's Regiment , did he even mention his name . No where in the book is Jaimal mentioned .
..............
Note, Gharib Das is not mentioned in the book either. Maheswari, Corr.,1960,v.1,p.168, "Gharib Das, blind and helpless, attempted to pose as a guru near Delhi. This he did just to help himself and for his own personal gain." Chachaji listed many advanced disciples of Swami Ji in it, but not Jaimal or Gharib Das.
..........
Was Chachaji in the dark about his brother Swami Ji passing guruship to Jaimal as late as June 1902 ??? We would have to assume Swami Ji never told anyone in his family Jaimal was a guru , if Chachaji didn't know. Later the same year in 1902, Chachaji let Jaimal initiate through Council vote. THE BIG QUESTION IS WHY CHACHAJI AND SUDARSHAN, TWO SANTS ACCORDING TO BEAS, OFFICIALLY REPRIMANDED JAIMAL FOR PRETENDING TO BE A SANT AND THEN TRIED TO EXCOMMUNICATE HIM !!!!!!!!!!
_______________
A note on Swami JI. Although it has been claimed Swami Ji was a born saint, both Maheswari and at least one Council guru (Babuji Madhav Sinha), claimed Swami Ji treated Girhari Das as a Guru, although not his Guru. Girdhari Das was Tulsi Sahib's chief disciple. Tulsi Sahib of Hathras was the Guru of Swami Ji's parents. He died in 1843 appx. See Biography of Hazur Maharaj, S. D. Maheswari,1971, p.15. But, Girdhari Das actually lived in one of Swami Ji's houses. It has been recorded when Girdhari was dying, Swami Ji ran to see him in Lucknow. If it is possible Swami Ji was Girdhari's successor, it may be because Tulsi's historical successor (who was not Girdhari, but Surswami) was too close for him to admit it (32 miles NE of Agra)and he may not have wanted to create friction with the Hathras group. But, it has been stated officially Swami Ji was a born saint in need of no guru and that he had none. This writer will give no opinion. GO TO LAST PAGE NEXT.
----------

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Sidenote: This email was received regarding the use of the word Radhasoami: regarding use of word...."Radhasoami by PPPD Soamiji Maharaj in his letters and books edited by PPPD Huzur Maharaj. The original manuscripts of the book SAR BACHAN ( all four volumes of Prose and Poetry) and original letters are available at Huzuri Bhavan and do contain the word RADHASOAMI. Baba Charan Singh of Beas and Baba Kirpal Singh of Delhi had personally visited Agra and had seen it for themselves. We have authentic proof of their visits and also the discussions." End email quote from Pipal Mandi group rep.
...............

[tucson]

Hey Mike,

I think you're overdoing it. There are several RSSB ex'ers here like me, in which case you're preaching to the choir, and occasionally some brainwashed devotee shows up to spread the dogma, but by and large most readers here don't care enough about RS to go through all the material you have posted. It's a waste of space in the comments column.

Just my opinion. I'm not the boss here.

[Mike Williams]

To acquire more ex satsangis, hard facts
are needed. I know this is an ex satsangi site, but it is the satsangis of the furure
I am concerned about. Future generations.

For ex satsangis to just talk amoung themselves may help post tramatic syndrome,
but to get satsangis to become exers stops
future wars.

Most exers are not aware that hard facts
are available to help future generations,
whom will not care about opinions.

Hard facts defeat the hypnotic trance
of the Radhasoami.

[tAo]

I definitely agree with Tucson...

I think Mike is overdoing it far beyond what is necessary to make his point. It's even to the point of extreme disregard for Brian and all of us other commenters. This is not a place to post such lengthy data. Mike should simply go make his own blog, and then post a link here for those who wish to read all of that stuff. But I for one DON'T care to read it, and I have had to skip, or rather scroll, over it... much to my annoyance. I have no intention or interest in wading trough all of that crap. I already know all that I need to know about the RSSB and its history. So if I were Brian, I'd have already deleted those over-stuffed posts due to their being far too much of a copy and paste job, and far too little of Mike's own personal commentary. There simply is no need to pig-out and take up so much space here with endless obscure details about RSSB, regardless of whether they be pro or con, or even true. Like Tucson said: "It's a waste of space in the comments column."

Mike says:

"To acquire more ex satsangis, hard facts are needed."

-- No one here (besides Mike) is trying "to acquire more ex-satsangis". That is NOT the focus or the agenda here, as far as I know.

"I know this is an ex satsangi site"

-- I don't know that this is specifically an "ex satsangi site" at all. It's simply Brian's blog and he allows the rest of us guests to make comments, share our opinions, and carry on discussions.

"it is the satsangis of the furure
I am concerned about."

-- Mike may be concerend about "the satsangis of the future"... but I AM NOT. Everything (including RS) will take care of itself naturally. That's The Way of the universe. There is no such need to wage a campaign against RS or worry about "future satsangis". In fact, it's ridiculous to do so. Its just as stupid as those satsangis who preach and try to covert others to follow RS dogma.

"to get satsangis to become exers stops
future wars."

-- That's a load of hogwash. And I don't give a damn about people becoming satsangis. Why bother? Everyone has to learn their own lessons anyway.

"Most exers are not aware that hard facts
are available"

-- Yes they are. And what does it matter anyway? It all comes down to personal choice, and in most cases the "hard facts" are secondary.

"Hard facts defeat the hypnotic trance
of the Radhasoami."

-- Maybe so... maybe not. It all depends on what people believe are the facts, and who they trust. And even then, their spiritual path or persuasion is their own business.

But the bottom line here is... that this is NOT really the proper place to post such lengthy and tedious and obscure details and data about RSSB, that most people will probably NOT take the time to read through anyway. I'm a big fan of: "The more simpler, the more better".

And contrary to what some folks might think, and unlike Mike, I am not here to try to sway anyone either towards or away from RS. I think RS has some very significant flaws, but I just share my own personal opinions and insights about such things. And I also enjoy the many fine articles and subject matter that Brian offers up here for our consideration, as well as some of the guest commentaries.

[mike williams]

Satsangis have to learn their own lessons ??? Not so. How many of us would have joined if we had hard facts
in opposition to Beas ? When we joined, there were no outspoken critics.

Beas has ruined peoples lives. Destroyed famalies and produced insanity.

I have been responsible for thousands of people leaving this group worldwide.

Your attidtude is not that of an ex satsangi.

Satsangis are for their own self.
The ex satsangi wants to help others.

Your excuses of why people have to find out for themselves, are a rationalization
for your being a somebody on a club.

You still want to be a somebody at
the expense of others.

Hence, for a satsangi to become like you would accomplish nothing.

Your rationalizations are off the chart
and vanity plays a part.

Hard crusted vanity.

You have a long way to go to be an ex satsangi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zdB1zyjI48

[mike williams]

Some years ago I went onto an ex premie
club. A group of people whom went up
against thier guru in public.

Prem Rawat (ex kid guru Maharaj Ji). Radhasoami connection way back.

This guru sued them and put websites
up with their names and addresses
on the net.

Some of the people wanted to sue
their guru back and I offered to
pay their attorney fees.

I also told them they still had the flaw
in them that made them join this group
originally.

Well, they thought I must be a mole.

They went crazy with why I was a plant
from Maharaj Ji. Even after I proved
to the owner whom I was. (He was a lawyer.)

When confronted with the fact they were
still as worse off as they were before
becomming ex premies,
they did not want to know about it.

They wanted to be ex premies, but not get
rid of the problem that caused them to
be premies in the first place.

The mirror of reality was too much.

I admired their tenacity on their attack
of their ex guru, but was surprised they
had not fundamentally changed.

So far I have been on this club about 3 days.

I am told by members they do not want hard facts, they want to give opinions. The simpler the better. They want to give
'their opinions' in place of hard facts,
which they do not have time to read.

This is nothing new to me. I am not under the delusion the ex satsangi is any better off than before.

The satsangi wants the idea of a self
to be waxed. Religion, or public applause
will do the same.

The satsangi was never really after religion in most instances. They were out
to bolster the 'self'.

They are still out to bolster the false notion that there is a self. They are still caught in the web and don't know it.

Without realizing the self is a myth, nothing changes.

The ex satsangi will run from one place to another in their minds. Never having
known the solution.

Here is the answer, so you may become ex satsangis, once and for all.

http://www.well.com/user/jct/

[Roger]

Mike,

I can understand "playing" fair with words.
I don't understnd "playing" fair with billions of words. A thread measure study is in order, here. A new Churchless record is in the making.

[tAo]

Mike,

Listen up dude...

You simply don't know shit about me. You also don't know shit about where I stand relative to RSSB. And you obviously don't know shit about the virtual mountain of outspoken criticism that I have already leveled at RS, both here and elsewhere. Therefore, you are ignorant about me personally as well as about my views towards RS. Your judgements relative to me are stupid and faulty, and your arrogant presumptions and generalizations about other "ex satsangis" are skewed and by your inflated ego.

Personally, I don't give a god-damn about the stupid RSSB. I am actually far more of an "ex" than you will ever be. You don't even know how much.

People join all sorts of spiritual cults. It's just not my responsibilty (or my problem) to try to save their foolish gullible asses.

Basically, your own personal little war against the RSSB (and your pseudo concern about naive would-be satsangis), as evidenced by your excessively lengthy postings of so-called "hard facts", is your own hang-up. You can make saving satsangis your mission if you wish, but your over-loading of this comment forum so excessively... is downright obsessive and inconsiderate.

You said the following:

"Beas has ruined peoples lives. Destroyed famalies and produced insanity."

-- Perhaps, but other cults, and religions, and tyrants have done so as well. Just because I don't feel inclined to save the satsangis or the world, doesn't make me less. I am neither a satsangi nor an ex-satsangi. That's your conceptual duality.

"I have been responsible for thousands of people leaving this group worldwide."

-- I doubt that... but if so, so what?

"Your attidtude is not that of an ex satsangi."

-- Again, you don't know shit about me, or about where I am at relative to RS.

"Satsangis are for their own self. The ex satsangi wants to help others."

-- Bullshit. Satsangis are people who buy into and believe and follow the RS dogma. Ex-satsangis are people who no longer believe and follow RS dogma.

"Your excuses of why people have to find out for themselves, are a rationalization
for your being a somebody on a club."

-- Again, you don't know shit abvout me, nor about what I think about RS, nor about what I have said about RS in this forum.

"You still want to be a somebody at the expense of others."

-- Basically, you're nothing more than a puffed-up critic with zero substance to your presumptions.

"Hence, for a satsangi to become like you would accomplish nothing."

-- Wrong again. You are full of shit. If a satsangi actually became like myself, then he/she would no longer have anything whatsoever to do with Santmat or RS.

"Your rationalizations are off the chart
and vanity plays a part."

-- Again, your blatant ignorance and stupidity of who I am and where I am at, is what is really "off the chart".

"Hard crusted vanity."

-- To present yourself as someone who is out to save satsangis and woulkd-be satsangis from their terrible fate is what is "vanity". You have described yourself exactly.

"You have a long way to go to be an ex satsangi."

-- I am not trying to be an "ex satsangi". I have no interest whatsoever in being anti-RS or pro-RS. RS is not worth my attention either way. You just don't have a clue.

"I also told them they still had the flaw
in them that made them join this group
originally."

-- Perhaps they did (still have the flaw)... but that has nothing at all to do with me. I have never been any sort of cult member or follower.

"When confronted with the fact they were
still as worse off as they were before
becomming ex premies, they did not want to know about it."

-- Again, that has nothing to do with me, and no similarity to me at all. And so again, you don't don't know shit abut me.

"They wanted to be ex premies, but not get
rid of the problem that caused them to
be premies in the first place."

-- I have never been a so-called "satsangi" - an RS guru-cult believer - so I also neither "want" nor need to be an "ex satsangi". Thus, in your igntoance about me, you are definitely 'barking up the wrong tree'.

"So far I have been on this club about 3 days. I am told by members they do not want hard facts, they want to give opinions."

-- I can't speak for others, but for myself, I already know far more than enough "hard facts" about RS. I checked it out, and its definitely not my cup of tea. I have no use for such authoritarian guru-cult dogma and foolishness.

"They want to give 'their opinions' in place of hard facts, which they do not have time to read."

-- I have already read tons of info years ago, including the entire Secret History site. But more importantly, I have my OWN direct insight and experience with RS, and which btw is far more significant and convincing to me than any amount of so-called historical "hard facts". You seem to think that the people in this forum are somehow not informed, but that is simply your own arrogance and foolish ignorance.

"This is nothing new to me. I am not under the delusion the ex satsangi is any better off than before."

-- You don't know diddly-squat about other ex-satsangis. Such a generalization that you have made here shows just how little you realy do know about other ex-satsangis, and especially about non-satsangis like myself. To put it bluntly, you are acting like an arrogant jackass.

"The satsangi wants the idea of a self
to be waxed. Religion, or public applause
will do the same."

-- Perhaps they (satsangis) are oriented towards self-importance and identity (I would tend to agree that they are)... but none of that applies to myself.

"The satsangi was never really after religion in most instances. They were out
to bolster the 'self'."

-- I would tend to agree with that, but also add that these satsangis were and still are quite spiritually naive and insecure and so they are seeking self-salvation by believing in a supposed spiritual savior figure, a so-called "sant" or "master".

"They are still out to bolster the false notion that there is a self. They are still caught in the web and don't know it."

-- I also definitely agree with that.

"Without realizing the self is a myth, nothing changes."

-- Ditto.

"The ex satsangi will run from one place to another in their minds. Never having
known the solution."

-- Ditto.

"Here is the answer, so you may become ex satsangis, once and for all."

-- I personally don't need to "become" an ex-satsangi. I have absolutely no interest in the RS cult, in any way whatsoever... and that even includes opposing it. I have far better things to pay attention to.

So in conclusion Mike, you really should get ALL of your facts straight before you go jumping to conclusions and judging other folks such as myself, whom you know nothing about.

[mike williams]

Your insight is convincing to you.

My insight is convincing to me.

I was the first person to make a direct
assault on the bastion of Radhasoami
and succeed.

Not only has the history ben demolished with hard facts, but I have brought Faqir Chand to the forefront and destroyed
the theology. This book only
sold 2,000 copies before I highlighted
it.

The gurus are going crazy. Thousands and thousands of people have left Radhasoami.
The gurus cannot answer the questions on
history and theology.

They are left naked. Very helpless.

I have had every cult trick pulled in the book on me by the groups.

Nothing worked.

The house of cards has fallen.

The combination of secret history
with Faqir Chand (David Lane book)
has obliterated all their logic.

You have lived long enough to see
the fall of a great cult. The bell can't
be unrung. Time cannot be turned back.

What I have been through in the last years you can't even imagine.

Faqir Chand's statement gurus are criminals
turned out to be exactly true.

The hypnotic trance is broken with hard
facts.

What happens is these people are in a self induced hynotic state.

The magician must snap his fingers
at the right time.

They may read 1000 hard facts and deny them all. But, one day, just one of these facts resurfaces.

That one fact drives them crazy. They just can't get past it. They end up getting shot with one bullet from the gattling gun.

Just one fact they cannot deny. That's all
it takes.

But, there is no telling which fact will
cause their delmina. So, a shotgun
approach is taken.

It is extremely effective. Even so, to the point, even the believers can't deny the facts and are in turmoil.

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

[mike williams]

These posts are why I do not
see ex satsangis any better than
satsangis.

I want to be ex of both parties.

When ex satsangis post exactly what Gurinder
and Rajinder want to hear, it is embarassing
to call my self one.

The reason the ex satsangi is no better
than the satsangi, is the fundamental flaw
has not been removed.

The ex satsangi will move from Radhasoami
as a 'chosen one', to other areas of life.
They will want to be 'somebody' in other areas of life, such as business, or politics.

So, the ex satsangi will still hurt other people. They can't help themselves.

This deep seated need to be 'somebody'
is what hurts mankind. So, the exsatsangi will continue to hurt mankind.

The genetics of the exsatsangi demands
he be 'somebody.'

This desire sublimates but never goes away.

So, I may have helped thousands of people get out of Radhasoami, but unless ex satsangis realise they still have a major problem, it does absolutely no good.

The ex satsangi is still an extremely ill person. It is an extreme illness that drives one to become a member in the first place.

Even unintelligent people see how absurd
Radhasoami Faith is off the bat. Yet, very intelligent sick people jump in head first.

Until the illness is cured, the sick exer is
as dangerous as the satsangi.

There is only one cure for this illness.

Only one.

Very few ex satsangis will find this cure.

But, those are the people I am looking for.

Just a handful of these people can change the world.

They can change the world, without the world even realising it.

They can help people from every cult, not just Radhasoami. People from every religion.

It is the most powerful idea mankind will ever realise.

Its time has come.

It's time for mankind to be free.
-------------------------

[mike williams]

What happens in a clubs life.

The club starts out with nice friendly
people. Decent people.

Gradually the ill, or insane, force
their way in and are so obnoxious,
decent people don't want to hang around them.

The club suddenly stagnates. Stops growing.
This is the last stage.

I have seen this on RS Studies, Ex premie and I am seeing it here in its infancy.

It becomes too low class. People basically
say, this is too nuts and go away.

People don't attack the issues, they attack
each other, when their logic fails. When logic fails, opinions fly.

The final stage of a club is the blowhard stage. Basically no one left, except those with the IQ's of fish.

Whom believe they are wizards.

What a shame.

The gurus win without even trying.

-----------------------------------------

[mike williams]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26jYdxjJ1Lc

[raoul]

does anyone have ben erskine's photograph, i belive there was one on the net now its been taken off

[gframesch]

TO RESPOND TO THE ABOVE QUESTION REGARDING BEN ERSKINE-THERE ARE MANY ON GOOGLE SEARCH-IMAGES-REGARDING RS AND UGLY DISCUSIONS ONE READS HERE-ABOVE-ON THIS PAGE SHOWS ALL KNOW HOW TO BLABBER BUT NONE KNOWS HOW TO REACH WHERE THEY HAVE TO-NO MATTER HOW OR BY WHAT GURU OR METHOD-GOD BLESS THEM ALL

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"-SADDION FILASFI KI CHOON WA CHUNEEN RAHI-LEKIN KHUDA KI BAAT JAHAN THI WAHEEN RAHI-"-"-FOR CENTURIES PHILOSOPHERS DISCUSSED AND ARGUED ABOUT NATURE OF GOD AND GODMEN-BUT-THAT MYSTERY HAS ALWAYS STAYED THERE WHERE IT EVER HAS BEEN-UNSOLVED -"-IT IS SO BECAUSE IT IS ANTS WHO WANT TO DISCUSS ABOUT THE MOUNTAIN OR IT IS THE FISHES WHO WANT TO DISCUSS ABOUT THE SKY-OF WHICH-THEY HAVE NEITHER ANY EXPERIENCE NOR ANY KNOWLEDGE