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February 13, 2008

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For years there was fear in me,to think about,especially my kids, who might not ask for initiation..
It is too bad this fearthing in the santmat teachings,dogma.
You are very right that people feel these guru's as Christ
Now again with the new book from John Davidson about the bible it is the same point as with J. Johnson.

realized God..hum...well, Genesis 1:27; God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.. these translations vary... most can be answered in this verse. i think it is referring to our soul is created in his image. like we are all tiny pieces of him thus our great connectivity. and after millions of years and millions of lives later we finally have manifested into or human bodies. meaning we didnt start out in this physical shell. we grew as higher states of beings to the form we now hold. and will continue to grow.. almost like a race with no winners or losers only goal is to finish. dont misunderstand what im saying.. not from birth to death. for life and death are the same. they make each other so... no one dies they just transform if this is true then the life you lived previous to your death will be reflected in your after life. so live a good life i dont think God is really to concerned im sure he has way to much going on in this vast universe. he got the ball rolling and provided us with many different ways to life according. who knows what the answers are but they all can be found from within. so ill stick with the Tao. the knowing with out knowing. doing nothing yet leaving nothing undone.

Sita writes:
For years there was fear in me,to think about,especially my kids, who might not ask for initiation..
It is too bad this fearthing in the santmat teachings,dogma.

--Sita, I have also found fear in me, fear about my past "sins" and the resulting karma, and guilt that I am not living up to some Satsangi standard.
Does this fear come from the path of from myself or both?
It is a shame that it is there, because fear is a sign of resistance to self-acceptance. And self acceptance means relaxation, and relaxation helps with deep meditation.
I am willing to take responsibility for my own fears, but at the same time, I wonder if the satsangi community latently supports fears in some subtle way.

> John the Baptist's answer points out a
> fundamentally important law of the
> Creator: that each Master has been
> allotted a certain number of "sheep" to
> initiate and take home to the Father, and
> that only the Father determines which
> souls are for which Mystic.

For example, some people used to watch the TV show Star Trek, and get fascinated by the stories about alien space races like Klingons or Vulcans. So they pretend to be a space alien, dressing up in costumes, or learning (or making up) the language and culture, and act as if they were space beings.

It's all harmless fun... but it'd be pretty silly to forget that it's a story, and regard a TV show about aliens as if it were truth.

I think about that when I read this quote about John the Baptist. Sure, if you want to think that a Creator is allotting sheep to Masters, yada yada, OK, why not. But it's absurd to then treat these ideas as if they're anything more than stories that someone makes up.

The key distinction isn't whether we believe this or that... but whether we accept ANY belief based on the mere claims of an authority or a group. As children, we have no choice but to depend on our parents, obey them, and believe whatever they say. But as adults, we ought to at least consider the choice of questioning things based on our own understanding and perceptions. We don't need to give ANY weight to stories about creators and masters and sheep... even if the stories are told by serious-looking old men in fancy costumes with weird names.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

In India Jesus does not work. In the west, Jesus sells. THese cults included Jesus to trap western fools who deserted their homeland to come to "Mystic India". What they got was the same padre stuff usually dished in the Roman Catholic Church with a different cultural background.

Komposer,
It is both ways imo,but when one really believed the santmatpath,there definitely was fear included,very definitely!
The one is more vulnarable to it then the other but I was.
Now Gurinder says that we are full with concepts,but the santmatpath gave these concepts,the books and satsangs are full with that.
I am happy that I came loose from all this.
I was,and I am not the only one young and vulnarable when comming on the path,for me the Master was my,our, saviour and beloved.
How could we know at that time how things really worked.
It's a full story for evryone I think sometimes I would like to tell everything about it,but it is not neccesary.
All have their own story to tell.
But what Brian says here is true,the way Charan told about the bible made him even more lovable and Jezus alike,at least for me and I am sure for lots of also western people.
He was our living saviour.

Slowly and slowly I became more and more aware of the idiot dogma's involved in it.
It was an relieve to find David Lane's discussions,the exgroup and last but not least Churchless from Brian.
It made me feeling not that much alone in digesting about all of it.
What I do now is Vipassana meditation,it suits me,no dogma just sitting by/with yourself.

Oh,and yes composer,there is still the fear thing,very definitely.
I was last year in Dera,to just have a look and to talk with Gurinder and to meditate.
The Punjabi satsangs can be heard by the westerners through a microphone for translations,well for me it was terrible to hear the stuff,like chaurasi again and again,only with the Guru...etc...
Even an Indian sewadar dare to say,when you DOUBD the Master you have to be born again!
Also I heard about slipping down etc..
NOT good to hear this silly stuff, for me at least.
This was the last drop that puts me away from the whole santmatpath.
It costed a lot of labour after being 40 years on the path and also having my family there,I mean also blood fam.

Dear Brian,

I would like you to please go through links and see how teachings of jesus have been equated with their own. I think it will make an interesting reading. You may be already aware.If so, please ignore it.


http://www.osho.nl/New-Osho-NL/EnglBooks/Jesus.htm

http://www.oshoviha.org/books/jesus.htm

http://www.wonderfull-things.com/oshos/jesus_1.htm

http://www.energyenhancement.org/ContentMeditationArticles.htm

Sita,

Congratulations for being free of Sant Mat cult dogma and thinking for yourself.

It can be disheartening at first to realise that what one has devoted themselves to for so long turned out not to be genuine.

However, it also can be a liberating feeling as Bob, another ex-satsangi who stops by here, pointed out.

There are no limits.

Best Wishes.

Thank you Tucson.
It is/was a slow process in my case.

Dear Sita,
Thanks for sharing with me (all of us). I am a relatively new initiate in Sant Mat. A few years ago, I had the opporyunity to see Gurinder Singh a couple of times in the states and was deeply attracted to him. I am very happy with the meditation practice. For me the difficulty comes with the mental implications that goes wit the path, and I am trying to separate them in my head to keep myself emotionally healthy.
I think a lot of the problem is that (some) people feel all this pressure to change who they are when they get initiated. For example, in my case, I lived a very "normal western" college life, drinking alcohol, having sexual relationships, and experimenting with drugs. I noticed that when I stopped this behavior, it was not simply a cessation of certain activities, like going on a diet, but a certain moralistic personality within me kicked in and decided that my past self wasn't so good, and I ended up getting very self-critical in a way that hurt me.
Now I try to look at the situation differently. For example, I try to see the fact that I don't drink anymore as only meaning that I don't drink, not that now I am a good person. The meditation doesn't mean I am a good or bad person, it means I meditate, and hopefully it literally shapes me in a certain desired way.
A good friend, who is Jewish, was telling me today that this is how mystical jews view the ten commandments, that abiding by them doesn't mean you are a good person, but rather the resulting effect will make you more "godly" (I hate that term, but I can;t think of another. I hope I am clear about thus.
My main point is that I am trying to let the meditation do the work, not change my personality, and just be myself. It's not always so easy, but that's where I'm at.

Glad to see that you have sorted it out Komposer. You have discovered the right idea. I myself never let sant mat change me, and I have always remained free and true to myself, but it obviously has been a problem and a repression for others. So always be and remain true to yourself. Don't let any spiritual philosophy or dogma like sant mat make you schizoid or feel guilty. Remain in equipoise by not clinging to or rejecting anything. Not for or against. Accept everything (including yourself) without judgement. I would suggest that you find some helpful insight along these lines from the Dzogchen teachings in addition to your meditation. Because Santmat is too much moralistic, repressive, stifling, and judgemental.


hi tAo,
Thanks for your comments. I will check out Dzogchen.

Prior to becoming involved with Sant Mat I was a hard partyer like Komposer. Cleaning up my act according to Sant Mat principles helped me to feel a lot better mentally and physically. "Master's Grace" I used to hear people say. I don't know whose grace it was, but I am grateful that something came along that helped me get out of that life pattern.

The idea that I was on the road to merging with the Lord in Sach Khand gave me a cetain feeling of security or peace, but teachings such as Dzogchen, as Tao mentioned, always resonated with me more in regard to being fully present and at peace with life as it is right now.

One book that came my way at about the same time as Sar Bachan and Sant Mat nearly 40 years ago is a translation of "The Zen Teachings of Huang Po" by John Blofeld.

Huang Po seemed to have great insight, but in light of dualistic Sant Mat teachings, it seemed too intellectual. Sant Mat was all about Bhakti and objectivising God and spirituality even though it talked about "merging with the Lord". It was later on I realized that what Huang Po was pointing to wasn't intellectual at all, rather the simplicity of spontaneous immediacy. Just this. That's it.

I am still grateful for all the good things it gave me..

the heart rises with sun over still and peaceful waters.


Be thou blessed.

What i want to convey to u all the way from india is that we all has human beings have been keeping faith in various mythologies and ideoligies as we grew old but we also had to keep faith and belief upon some anti social and destructible elements in our surroundings. If u are so hesitant to have faith in the path, u can at least, aas a human being, try to analyse the spiritual discourses, but eventually if u do not want to do these things and love to stay with the fires of unethical and obnoxious doubts burning in ur mind then i wouldn't ever say even a word to u. If u have ever attended any satsang and ever think that these followers of radha soami foundation are not so stupid to entrust every thing upon their satguru;then connect to them speak to themopenly because only experienced satsangis can and will always be able to accompany u on a physical plane(not spiritual) in this world upon this path.Ultimately it depends upon the Complete Master's wish and grace to grant u and bless u with a discipleship that is the true essence of this human life. It takes a lot of love, faith and devotion for paving ways towards attainment of ultimate reality.
Without faith, love and trust nothing is possible neither physically nor spiritually. So first concentrate on that aspect because asccording to every relationship this pure elationship also equires a fatih which is attained by clearence of all doubts so that ur relationship with the whom u r relating to is crystal clear.If u hav a desire to seek tht u will seek it. Undoubtedly.

All in all there's one single statement associated to all satsangis who are stuck, confused in a situation:

STOP
ANALYSING

START
CHANNELISING.

Chaitanya,

What it comes down to is a matter of blind faith. If you believe the Satguru is who he is supposed to be, then I would ask you upon what do you base this belief? How do you know the master is perfect and is fully capable of taking you to the highest spiritual region?

Personally, I "love" to stay away from "the fires of unethical and obnoxious" unprovable dogma, cult worship and mindless devotion to a guru personage whose attainment I have no rational means of determining.

Rhadasoami,

Ex-Satsangi and writer of this website, just one question, if you doubt the guru and thing it's all phoney, why do you still meditate?

I think that you are just frustrated as you have (thus far) not been successful in stilling the mind.

Rhadasoami

rmntgm,

if you do not doubt the guru and you think it's not all phoney, then why do you question as to why someone else meditates?

i think because you are frustrated that you have not been successful in your meditation. if your meditation was good, then you would not wonder and question why someone else does meditation.

fyi, a great number of people throughout the world pratice meditation. and a very great majority of these people who meditate, also don't believe in sant mat particular guru, nor do they believe and pratice sant mat. sant mat is not the only meditation, and radha soami is not the only guru cult.

from the looks of your comment, it apprears that you are a very narrow-minded person. but that is typical of most radha soami cultists.

rmntgm, I'll echo what tAo said: I do just fine stilling my mind in meditation. But apparently you haven't learned how to silence your own critical, judgmental mind. Maybe you should meditate more and read blogs less?

I'm not at all frustrated. For thirty-five years I followed the RSSB meditation instructions almost perfectly. I did the experiment and got the results. Now I'm taking what I've learned and continuing on with life.

[Note: rmntgm, you left this comment on my other blog, where it didn't belong. If you share more comments, make sure it is related to the subject of a post. I had to go to the trouble of copying this comment to its proper location. --Blogger Brian]

WOHA THERE! Chill the beans please guys! This is what I dislike about emails and SMS - you can not convey feeling, inflection etc. - well I suppose you could use italics and bold etc. - but that's besides the issue..... Maybe I cam across badly - and i apollogise if I offended any person(s). Yes I am initiated by Baba Ji, yes I am weak. I try not to be judgmental, and I don't judge you, believe it or not. Why I wrote that blog last night - well, I was just browsing the website for info. on RSSB for someone at work interested to learn more and they prefer the net to books (they spend a lot of time on there) or they might accept a CD or tape. Anyhow, came across your blog. I did lots of searching etc. and am sure that i read in one of the past blogs that you still meditated (as taught by Maharaj Ji). That is all. I get frustrated with myself because I have had personal experiences that time and time again that I have the right path, but then the mind wins over again. Thats the struggle I guess. Anyway, whatever. I know what I mean, meant....I wish I could meet you in person, you interest me.

rmntgm,

Yes, in order to follow the vows of RSSB you must struggle with and discipline the mind. Sometimes you just don't want to meditate or you want to do one of the other prohibited things. This is normal.

However, I do not think you should ignore your mind when it is confronted with, or is questioning, something about RSSB that seems wrong or does not make sense.

For example:

1) Why do satsangis have to accept, without any evidence, that the master is perfect and has supernatural powers that enable him to free the soul from maya and karma and take it to the highest spiritual region?

2) Why must you accept on faith alone that the master is who he says he is? What if you get near the end of your life and you still have no proof?

3) What will you do then?

4) Will the master show himself at the time of death and carry you away to your place in one of the heavens?

5) Or will you simply slip into quiet unconsciousness... forever?

6) Perhaps that is what you really fear and have chosen this path to escape from that fear?

7) Is that a good reason to devote yourself to an unproven guru? Are you that desperate?

I don't say this to be mean. This is serious business. This is your life. Maybe your only life. Be honest with yourself and act accordingly. A potentially false guru wants to own your life. Does he deserve it? Is he the real thing? How do you know?

Faith is a gift, but in my opinion the recepient of your faith must earn it. Has the master earned your faith? What has he done for you lately?

Think that it is probably better not to discourage new people by being TOO critical. Variety is important, imo anyhow.

Tucson, you wrote :

"However, I do not think you should ignore your mind when it is confronted with, or is questioning, something about RSSB that seems wrong or does not make sense."

This is one of my deepest concerns. When there are discrepancies in a cult or a religious institution (high moral precepts vs actual conduct), it is immediately at odds with the desire to preserve the safety/sanctuary of ones religious convictions. The rejected concerns lurk in the darkness, kept at bay via denial, ignoring, avoiding. History shows such shunning of ones own observations is very dangerous..emotional/mental (and thereafter social/political)imbalances often verging on pure insanity at worst and blathering in mystical circles at best.

Sant math to me was escapism. If you are into drugs and wild life you are perhaps like I was. Than substituting the alcohol with self hypnoses seems to work, you still escape from the world. When G says this world is bad and you have to escape with him, it is because that works for him to get a living. So he himself is not escaping. You should try to hold a job, finish your studie. Do not escape it.
I stopped alcohol too, that was ok but nowadays I was very stressed and the doctor told me to use medication but I thought wait a minute, if I have to use medication than let's start with a little wine to relax. And it works, not to much but red wine is a very healthy medicine in small amounts. So is meat for vitamines and omega 3. There are studies that omega 3 is a major component is mental health. A lot of veggies are missing it. Not if they take the oils as substitute.
Just use your brains with your food and don't think the western studies in food and medication can be overruled by some god person that didn't do the medical studies himself. And don't use a very old system to deal with life. Times have changed. Ask psychological help if you need it. Escaping in the end makes the road back only longer.

@rmntgm
RSSB indeed is not a science. You have to take on faith that the assumptions about inner worlds are truth. It is not that you can check that assumption in a reasonable time. So the other option is to ask around what others say about RSSB and especially the critics if you are investigating it scientifically.

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