More evidence Sant Mat is a religion

Yesterday Jay Lou left a comment on one of my posts that started off, "I don't want to be rude to you. But if you can't say anything good about something then don't say it at all."

I was surprised by that sentiment. I seem to recall an elementary school teacher saying something similar back in first or second grade, but adults rarely, if ever, speak that way.

It struck me as remarkably unscientific.

Yet it was pretty obvious that the commenter was a devotee of Sant Mat (likely the Radha Soami Satsang Beas branch), a spiritual path that I used to follow assiduously, and which likes to call itself the "Science of the Soul."

For the rest of his comment was:

This path is to be experienced on our own. It doesn't always work with everyone, even the Masters say that. Even though things might be going good for you but at the time of your death you will see what you have turned your back on. This mind of ours makes us doubt a lot and we have to control it. I'm just saying this to you to please don't say anything about the path, if you can't say anything good then don't say anything at all. Respect the path for what it is, even if you think its wrong and gives and didn't work for you. I think you have lost faith and don't know what you have lost. I just hope one day you understand and find what you are looking for.

It's difficult to imagine a scientist advising a colleague, "Don't say anything about this theory. Respect it for what is, even if it appears to be wrong and unworkable."

But it's easy to picture a religious fundamentalist wanting to stifle criticism of his belief system. Which sure seems to be the case here.

Lots of God-fearing people are, obviously, swayed by fear. Guru-fearing people also. I used to be one of them, so I understand where Jay Lou is coming from.

He believes that if you're not initiated by a perfect living Master who has been sent by God to take on the sins (karma) of marked souls who are destined to return to their heavenly father, then you're screwed after you die.

Just as Christianity teaches, there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth as you're thrown into the clutches of the Devil (which Sant Mat calls the "negative power" or Universal Mind).

Well, maybe at the time of my death I really will see what I've turned my back on. But I doubt it. What I've made a commitment to face myself toward is truth – reality.

It's difficult for me to imagine that reality is going to turn into fantasy after death. And I don't see any evidence that the cosmos has been set up so that certain souls are punished post mortem, and other souls are rewarded.

My spirituality, if you want to call it that (I think of it more as reality'ity), is premised on a scientific assumption: universal laws are just that. They apply to everyone, everywhere.

Gravity doesn't care if someone believes in it or not. Gravity doesn't care if someone criticizes it, or not. Gravity doesn't care if someone calls it by every swear word in their lexicon, or not.

By contrast, many people believe that God (or his emissary, such as a guru) does care. So they are super-careful about not taking the Lord's name in vain, bad mouthing their chosen divinity, expressing doubts about this being, and such.

They view God as akin to an easily offended human. Someone you don't want to say anything bad about, because he doesn't take kindly to criticism. Hence, "if you can't say something good, then don't say anything at all."

Well, what I say about Sant Mat and Radha Soami Satsang Beas on this blog is based on more than thirty-five years of intimate experience. I diligently followed the path that Jay Lou refers to, and now I feel entirely justified in speaking about what I found – and didn't find – along the way.

That's science, whether it be directed at knowing physical reality or what, if anything, may lie beyond the physical. You say it like it is, recognizing that "is" continually changes as reality becomes better understood.

What you don't do is censor the truth as you perceive it because such might offend someone. That's ridiculous, especially if it's considered that ultimate reality (a.k.a. "God") is the one being offended.

If God is that fickle and hyper-sensitive, I've got no interest in kissing his ass. Actually, I'm not interested in divine ass kissing regardless of God's desires in this regard, because if I'm going to affix my lips to a posterior, I want it to be a real one.

Jacob just submitted his own blog comment on "Reality is the best religion." My reaction? Right on, dude.

I agree, im 16, many people around me believe that their is a heaven or hell, why? i mean maybe if life was a movie or video game sure, but seriously when has something like that ever been seen before your eyes? when you die, your dead so live it up

I also liked Benito's response to Jay Lou. Nicely said.

Comments

[poohbear]

I expect that whatever Brian or anyone else says about RSSB or Sant Mat (for they are obviously two quite different things)it will not hurt the organisation or the philosophy. After all, there are no absolute truths being placed on the table in this blog. Just a bunch of folks chewing the fat about something that interests them. Individual opinion is probably the best we can do.
I see that Brian has hopes that science might resolve the big questions, but I'm not so sure myself. Science has done a good job on observing and documenting the physical world, but as it attempts to categorize all things being of material origin, it seems more and more to revert to philosophy. Even Big Bang theory has more 'free parameters' holding the theory together than it has actual observed events.
But long live the opinion - I will defend it to the last. And as Marcus Aurelius wrote all those centuries ago : "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”

[Stuart Resnick]

> if you can't say anything good about
> something then don't say it at all.

IF we knew what "good" and "bad" were, then maybe it'd make sense to only say good things. But "good" and "bad" are ideas in our heads. We can be like children, like immature thinkers, and just blindly follow our ideas of what's good and what's bad. But it's more common for adults to examine things critically, which means being open to the possibility that our ideas of good/bad don't correspond to an absolute truth.

> This mind of ours makes us doubt a lot and
> we have to control it.

This statement assumes that two separate things exist: a "mind" that makes doubts, and a "we" that can control it. Again, this is just an idea, and we can believe and follow it blindly, or we can examine it.

Actually, our thinking generates "belief" just as much as it generates "doubts." Whenever we believe something, we should surely NOT avoid doubting it; if we throw away the doubts but don't throw away the beliefs, then we're like idiots who can be led around by any sort of manipulation. Unless we match each belief with a doubt, we've got no "bullshit detector"!

Now, if we throw away all our beliefs, that's great, and then it's true we no longer need doubts.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

[DJ]

Brian wrote-"then you're screwed after you die". For a long time devotee of Eastern Myticism, Brian seems ignorant of how karmic theory works. I don't know how you can be screwed if the worst thing that can happen to a person is they get 'reborn' again and have to reap the rewards or punishments based on previous actions. I guess some people might think the worst case scenario of being born as a non-human animal might suck, but it sure beats the Christian/Muslim belief of rotting in Hell for all eternity or the oblivion of the atheist.

[Rakesh Bhasib]

Dear poohbear,

I love to read your quoted words of : Marcus Aurelius who wrote centuries ago : "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”

I personally feel that everthing that we experience is an imbibed fact. And experience is beyound hearing, speaking and seeing. It is non-transferable.
..................................

Dear Brian,

You wrote:

Well, what I say about Sant Mat and Radha Soami Satsang Beas on this blog is based on more than thirty-five years of intimate experience. I diligently followed the path that Jay Lou refers to, and now I feel entirely justified in speaking about what I found – and didn't find – along the way.

----- In sant Mat, the seeker is not the judge. There are people who could not get in 40 years and there are people got in 40 days.

I may quote from Gur Granth sahib," DADDA DOSH NA DAIYE KISI NU DOSH KARMA APNEYA!
JO MAIN KIYA SO MAIN PAYA DOSH NA DIJE AWAR JANA!! It simply means in English ," I can not blame anybody I can blame only my karmas whoatever I have sown so I am reaping.

I only say that there is an another aspect of what you think. Your conclusions are your own conclusions. Be steadfast to them. A journey of 100 km is considered complete only afer 100 km idstance is travelled. Even a distance of 500 m short, bears no result.

But dear friend, you were traversing a path whose distance and direction you did not know.

wishing you all the best

[Benito]

Stuart Resnick wrote:
"Brian seems ignorant of how karmic theory works. I don't know how you can be screwed if the worst thing that can happen to a person is they get 'reborn' again and have to reap the rewards or punishments based on previous actions."

>>That's screwed in my book..the endless wheel of transmigration and suffering. Who knows where you'll end up. Can you imagine being born as a krell on the planet Urvotz and being spurted by a droz?

[DJ]

First off, Stuart Redneck did'nt write that,Benito Mussolini;and secondly-better a krell on Urvotz than forever in Hell getting buttfucked with Satan's pitchfork!

[Deepak Kamat]

Now there is little doubt that Sant Mat is a religion. And it comes from the horse's mouth. Sawan once told Faqir that he could not spell out the truth because of institutional exigencies and that his followers lacked the maturity.

So all mature idiots, get out of Sant Mat.

[Deepak Kamat]

To Rakesh Bhasin,
I don't think spirituality is a long distance race of 1,000 metres or 950 metres. It is either/or. Either you are enlightened or you are not enlightened. Here, this is not just my opinion. It is what Charan Singh himself said. Either the wave is a wave or it has merged into the ocean.
As long as the wave feels it is different, the belief bubble has to burst.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Dear Deepak,
I wrote, "A journey of 100 km is considered complete only afer 100 km distance is travelled. Even a distance of 500 m short, bears no result."
These are all metophorical expressions.

A backward journey of 2&1/2 steps from sole of the feet to the eye center against the propensity of mind has to be undertaken. It is the first and the only step
a desciple has to take.

Rest of all is like under the influence of gravity or magnetic field of inner sound and light regions.

with love,

[Deepak Kamat]

I don't think even the journey from the sole of the feet to the eye centre is in anybody's control (including the physical Guru). It is just another concept that gets you hooked on yourself. If it has to happen, it happens by itself. This is not just my opinion.

In Spiritual Gems, Jaimal advises Sawan that sadhana is only a notion. It is the master who does everything. To think that we can travel from the feet of the sole to the eye centre is also fiction.

Then there is another question regarding travelling from the sole of the foot to the eye centre. Who is the one who is undertaking the journey. Is it not the false I or the ego? Questioning the I is more important than any sadhana?

Have you not read Faqir Chand? Sawan had told Faqir that he could not tell the whole truth to the sangat because the sangat did not have the maturity and also because of institutional exigencies.

Having come from the horse's (Sawan's) mouth, I don't know how much credibility the Sant Mat literature has.

[Nirmala Raj]

Oh dear me!...some wise man once said :2 things you should never argue about are politics and religion.And boy was he right!
After all, whatever you say will not convince the other!
We all have opinions and a right to have one but can I ask, if something (path, beliefs,etc) makes you want to become a better human being, then what's the harm? But if a child goes to school with a closed and stubborn mind and learns nothing, do you reckon it is purely the school's /educational entity's fault? So if your experience on the path wasn't gratifying, do you not think you had a lot to do in it? It takes 2 to tango, you see!
Live and let live people! The world is a big place and there is space for all beliefs.
...and by the way..one can't see the full city from the ground floor. You gotta get onto the roof / top floor. So judge only when you are in a position to judge...

[tucson]

Nirmala Raj wrote: "..then what's the harm?

--delusion

"...do you reckon it is purely the school's /educational entity's fault?"

--could be, if it's a lousy school.

"Live and let live people!"

--then you do the same.

"...and by the way..one can't see the full city from the ground floor. You gotta get onto the roof / top floor. So judge only when you are in a position to judge..."

--You are assuming there is such as thing as a top and bottom floor!

[Nirmala Raj]

Delusion :
Only if you have very high expectations...
Lousy school :
Opinions. There are happy students too and believe me they are not ignorants that get easily influenced by just anything.
Live and let live:
I'm not forcing you to athg whatsoever. You have a choice.
Top and bottom floor :
You ASSUME the pilot of your next domestic flight has an approved degree for practice right ? It's all about Faith...

[Deepak Kamat]

Nirmal Raj,

Faith is used to deceive. Just be. that's all. Be honest with yourself. That is more important.

Don't worship human opinions. Every ass has an opinion. That does not mean it is merged with truth.

[tucson]

Dear Nirmala Raj,

The thing about pilots is that it is reasonable to assume that they are qualified. Sure, it's possible an imposter could fool everyone, but not likely, and at least you would find out pretty fast when the plane reaches 30,000 feet without incident, or instead skids into the control tower at takeoff.

In the case of a master, however, I'm not sure it is reasonable to assume he is qualified and that he is worthy of giving your lifetime's allegiance and dedication to certain vows.

The claims of perfection and oneness with the ultimate are impossible to prove. How can you know he is able to administer your karma from "within" and guide you to the highest region while simultaneously doing the same for millions of other disciples for as long as four lifetimes? How do you know all this is genuine until you get to where you can see it? How do you know the master is who he says he is...on the heresay of others?

Maybe you will know someday, sooner or later, this lifetime or the next (if there really is a soul that transmigrates), but what if it doesn't happen? What if you never get to 30,000 feet? Is that not a possibility? Do you want to bet this one life you know you have on what this master says?

If a person wishes to accept all this, of course that is their decision, but it is indeed quite a leap of faith.

[Janice Fletcher]

Brian, just went to your site for the first time looking for a brief bio of you to include in some material in which I am considering to quote you from your work "God's Whisper, Creation's Thunder". I am a disciple of the RS path and agree with you that there is no reason to be quiet about any opinions. Master directs us to consisitently read view and discuss all literature regarding the Path before and after initiation. Your book is incredible, interesting that you "no longer follow". All is perfect. Rs love, Janice

[tAo]

Janice Fletcher wrote: "I am a disciple of the RS path and... ...Master directs us to consisitently read view and discuss all literature regarding the Path before and after initiation. Your book is incredible, interesting that you "no longer follow"."

-- Janice, you say "all literature regarding the Path"? ALL LITERATURE ? Knowing what I know about RS, I really seriously doubt that. Please show us exactly where he says that. And who is your "master"?

And I also rather doubt that you have ever read: 'Radha Soami Beas Secret History' You can find it here:

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com

As you are an RS initiate, I strongly encourage you to go read it and to think about it.

[tAo]

Here we go round again with yet another RS sycophant, or should I say sickophant...

Nirmala Raj wrote:

"if your experience on the path wasn't gratifying, do you not think you had a lot to do in it?"

-- Don't you think that the "path" has equally something to do with it? To use a metaphor reminiscient of RS metaphors: You can't learn medicine properly from a actor on a stage who is merely pretending that he is a doctor. You need to go to a real doctor at a real medical college.

"there is space for all beliefs."

-- I am not interssted in "beliefs". RS is just another quasi-religion.

"You gotta get onto the roof/top floor. So judge only when you are in a position to judge."

-- How do you know, and why do you presume that someone else is not "in a position to judge"??? You are not in a position to judge others. And how do you know what "floor" (level) someone else is upon? You simply do not.

[Nicole]

I'm not a Satsangi, but I was raised in Sant Mat.

Sant Mat is DEFINITELY a religion. They say they have no rituals... but what do you call pressing your hands together and saying "Rhada Soami" instead of waving and saying "Hi"? In the context of American culture, that's a ritual. What to do call going to Church to hear a sermon every Sunday... er... I mean going to the local elementary school auditorium and hearing a sermon every Sunday? What about the moment of silence? Or getting up at the crack of dawn to meditate for two hours? Just because they aren't fun and flashy, doesn't mean they aren't rituals.

Also, there's a hierarchy. How come the reps and their families get front row seats to see Master?

Master -> Rep -> Secretary -> Speakers

Is a bit like

Pope -> Cardinal -> Bishop -> Parish Priests

OK, no one is kissing the rings of the Secretaries or Reps, and the role is more administrative, but still.

I wish they would stop calling it a Science when it isn't one, there are no scientific studies with control groups, the standard deviation has not been calculated, etc.

Having said that I still do the dutiful daughter thing and go to Satsang occasionally. And as far as religions go it's a pretty harmless one, and I hope they all find enlightment. It's just not for me, and I wish they would stop knocking other religions. People who worship an Indian guy are really in no position to tell me my beliefs are wierd.