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November 27, 2007

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please no more about your extenstive 30-year experience and brilliance. i've known ppl who've worked in science for 30 years who cant grasp concepts that its takes some a few minutes to comprehend.

Insofar as knowledge is concerned, imo your links on quantum theory are akin to new-age rubbish, amateurs should not dabble in something they have no comprehension of and hold it out as somehow being authoritive, whih is why i acknowledge my limits with RS. It looks like you guys got together in the back of someone's garage and chucked something together from a 2nd year physics text, your fundamental mathematics is horrific for a start.

"If not, why get initiated in the first place since clearly you are not the type of candidate that the tradition can help achieve the experiences possible."

---So, what is this tradition?
---I like this "helping" to achieve a possible experience.
---If I work really hard, will I experience a really good experience. I like the good ones.

tao, please offer to describe and explain the most outstanding mystical experiences you have had both within RS and without.

It is up to every individual to interpret those experiences for themselves and what they mean.

For example, if you experienced the light and sound with RS meditation, then other people can decide whether or not those experiences have any meaning independent of what your personal opinion about them is. Once you explain what your experiences actually are, then it is possible to engage in discussion about them.

All i have seen from your posts is that you have meditated for 30 plus years with RS, had tons of mystical experiences, left them and don't seem to think those experiences are valuable in comparison to your experiences in other traditions. So if you can tell us exactly what your experience with RS in meditation were, it would help to clear away a lot of confusion.

George, you seem to be obsessed with some questions that appear to be of great interest to you, but which leave me (and others, I'm sure) confused about your motives.

In fact, I'm confused about the questions themselves. I'm not sure what exactly is bothering you about discussions regarding Sant Mat/RSSB here.

As I've noted before, there's a tendency among some commenters -- you being a notable example -- to focus on personal issues (who has said what to whom, and how they said it in a comment, for example) rather than substantive issues, which I find a lot more interesting.

I suggested before to you that you clearly lay out the questions or issues that you'd like to have discussed here. I think that would be more productive than your repetitive questioning about how other people (and this blog as a whole) look upon churchlessness.

If you think this blog, and conversations here are useless, then why take part in them? On the other hand, if there is utility in what we're doing here, then why not take part positively and productively rather than keep on criticizing?

The rest of the Internet is just a click away if the Church of the Churchless isn't your cup of tea. If it is, though, sit down and have some friendly chats about whatever subjects you're interested in.

The 4 life cycle topic is of some interest.

Some questions,

---Does One, in their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th life cycle, know through meditations, that they are in a particular cycle? This would assume some sort of advanced meditation status, or awareness.
---Why would the Master feel a need for a second Initiation, in a 2nd life cycle, when One has received an Initiation in Ones first life cycle? This would apply to the 3rd and 4th too.
---Is there value, in being initiated again and again? An example: would the 2nd Initiation, kinda jump start One into their next cycle? Due to the 24 year void, age requirement for Initiation.

Responses from someone that has a firm belief and extensive knowledge of the 4 life cycle Santmat process, would be greatly appreciated. IMO, there are no right or wrong replies. For me, this is an interesting topic, nothing more.

Best wishes,
Roger

"Finally, even if such a belief in a man-god exists, what is so different about this as compared to the christian belief in JC? So what?"

Wow. The "so what" here shocks me a little. The difference is that Jesus is dead and god-men are living. The belief people have in their godliness gives them immense power to exploit others. To get money, extort people, etc. This is true for many god-men in general not just the RS one. Using their power and status to fool people (Sai Baba, at least I think one of the Sai Babas, is an example).

If you believed that a living person was God incarnate and told you to do something, wouldn't you do it? Wouldn't you feel guilty if you didn't. In my home town, for example, the RS community I think last year or something, were going to build a new centre. They bought out a school costing hundreds of thousands of dollars (if my currency conversion is right). But apparently, they did not have enough funds to complete the transaction. This in itself is weird because RS (read: Gurinder) owns so much property around the world, there are donations from millions of followers, people donate their wills to RS. Apparently (this was cited in the RSSB data website, and I have heard about this elsewhere) Gurinder sent his son to Eton college and has a private jet. And they do not have enough money?

But, I digress. The point is, a very close relative of mine told me that he and some others from the community were called in for a meeting at the RS centre. A high level person told them that Gurinder himself had selected them to do 'seva' by giving them enough funds to buy the school. Somewhere around tens of thousands of dollars were requested. This was not a loan, they would not have given the money back. My relative told me this was not to be communicated to anyone. This relative truly truly believes in the God in Human Form thing. He was also having financial trouble at the time. God asks you for tens of thousands of dollars, how do you refuse? There is evidence elsewhere on this website, given by Unknown I think it was, about people being cheated out of their wills.

I'm sorry if I seem a bit more touchy than usual, but I personally feel that this is morally wrong. The belief that a human being is GIHF gives that human being, too much power which can and is being used to cause people wrong. Not just in RS, it's common for god-men in India to extort and exploit people. I just feel that this whole thing is so wrong and if the appointed God-men had any sense of right and wrong they would stand up and publicly admit that the whole GIHF thing is a bunch of crap. The GIHF thing is a core problem with RS and should be directly addressed by Gurinder by telling people, explicitly, and repeatedly to stop thinking of him in that way. It'll never happen but it's not right.

Again, George, I am very sorry about my touchy response but this is one thing I feel strongly about and I don't really like my close relatives being exploited.

right thats it for me, it isn't my cupt of tea, clearly you bunch are thicker than a sack of hammers.

free thinkers my arse.

god what a waste of time.

Basically a bunch of new age flakes trying to pretend they know something about something.

At least the atheists have half a brain.

frightening.

say hello to the sun god on the other side.

over&out
George

Rose, excellent thoughts. I had the same reaction when I saw the "so what?" comment. But your response is better than any I could have made, since you provided specific examples of why this issue of God in Human Form is important -- not something to be brushed away.

If someone claims to be God incarnate, or allows others to make this claim for them without disavowing it, this is pretty serious. It raises the bar considerably on moral/ethical issues, for one thing. Human imperfections shouldn't be evident, if one considers God to be the summit of perfection.

Of course, this presumes that we know what God is like, or what "perfection" means. It could be argued (and many do) that we are all God in human form, because reality is one, not many.

But this isn't how Sant Mat sees the GIHF question. And as you pointed out, this has the potential of leading to significant power imbalances in relationships between the guru and his representatives, and disciples who understandably want to stay on the good side of God.

This will be my final comment and response to George on this particular issue/debate:

[Note/Update: I started out writng the following comment (my final response to George) several hours ago, but since then, I see that George has posted again, and has just revealed his true colors. I knew that he would show his true ugly self sooner or later. I had an intuitive feeling that George's motives and his underlying attitude were not really what he has been trying to make himself appear as on the surface. It's now clear and evident and obvious where George is really at, and just how judgemental and critical and negative he really is underneath his pretentious facade.

Never the less, I will go on ahead and post the comments that I wrote anyway, just so that George's twisting and distorting of the facts and of my previous comments on this issue, don't go unanswered.

So here is basically what I had written on the matter sometime earlier today:

George said:

"The mechanical tenets like medititation, vegetarianism, etc are not my interest. I understand these are merely tools"

-- Incorrect. The RS mediation is not a "tool". It is the core practice. It is the path. The vegetarian diet and moral principles etc are merely aids/tools.

"I thought RS stressed the practical experience over all else."

-- RS lays great stress upon the practice of meditation, not any sort of "experience".

"since tAo and yourself do appear to have the bit between your teeth with these tenets, I do wonder how many of your 'core' tenets would acutally be agreed on by those pro-RS"

-- ALL RS satsangis agree on the "core tenets". ALL of the RS initiates, (both "pro" and "ex" satsangis), are knowledgeable of, and agree on the core tenets. The "tenets" are not alterable according to personal opinions. They are taught both at formal initiation and also in all of the literature. There is NO such disgreement (or confusion) regarding what the CORE "tenets" of Santmat/RS are, among initiates. This erroneous idea of George's, is from an uninformed non-initiate outsider's perspective.

"an obvious observation is that there are huge disagreements between satsangis and ex-satsangis on many RS issues"

-- Incorrect. There are some disagreements concerning other issues (ie: beliefs), but not about the basic RS meditation practice and principles.

"Its these issues that ppl disagree on that are of interest - i.e. the satguru concept, the intention of RS and the Dera, the intellect/mantra issue, the goal of uniting with something, what that thing is, the mystical experiences achievable, etc."

-- Some of those issues are debateable, but not all are accurate. For instance, there is no such "goal of uniting with something", and nor is there any debate or diagreement about the internal "mantra" (simran).

"Your 'god in human form' is indeed such an issue. Is this actually the belief?"

-- It is the belief that is presented and implied in the RS teachings, but - it is not my "god in human form" - ie: it is not MY belief. This issue is about the fact that the GIHF idea is in fact one of the primary accepted beliefs of the Santmat/RS belief system. 'We' (menaing all of us) do not necessarily believe that. I don't, and I know others do not either. But many "pro-RS" beleivers DO subscribe to this idea. It is the so-called "pro-RS" believers who do believe in the GIHF, in the Santmat GIHF idea. Therein lays the debate.

"What is the intended meaning of 'god' here?"

-- I don't know what you mean by 'god'. The supreme Godhead in RS is called Sat Purusha (Lord of Truth), Radha Soami (Lord of the Soul), or Anami Purush (Nameless Lord).

"I thought different spirtual realms had different gods?"

-- Not exactly. In the RS theology & cosmology, the different realms (lower mind, higher mind, and transcendant spiritual) are supposedly presided over by lesser lords who are in the service of the supreme godhead Radha Soami.

"Is the eternal 'sound' current considered to be a god or remnant of creation?"

-- Neither. According to Santmat, the sound curent or 'shabd' is the universal spiritual vibratory emanation of the supreme Godhead. The shabd is believed to manifest, support, and maintain all of lower creation.

"Is god a supernatural being or an ultimate reality or consciousness?"

-- Both. In Santmat the Godhead is the divine person "Sat Purusha" or "Radha Soami", and is also the supreme spiritual consciousness.

"even if such a belief in a man-god exists, what is so different about this as compared to the christian belief in JC?"

-- There IS little or no difference... and that IS the point. The GIHF idea in RS is the same as the Christian's belief that Jesus is GIHF or God in Human Form.

"it seems many of the ex-satsangis on here are scientific when it suits, but not at other times."

-- That's baloney. If you are going to make such an assertion, then you need to provide specific instances and evidence.

"having been initiated it follows that once upon a time all of you ex-satsangis bought wholeheartdly into RS..."

-- Incorrect. Not everyone "bought wholeheartdly into RS". I for one did not. And I am aware of others who also entered nto RS on a tenetive trial basis.

"...but now choose to examine it from a scientic or rationale perspective."

-- Yes, and why not? Why shouldn't people examine RS? Just because they got initiation does not mean that they must suspend all examination, scrutiny, or evaluation.

"If not, why get initiated in the first place since clearly you are not the type of candidate that the tradition can help achieve the experiences"

-- People apply for initiation simply because they wish to practice Santmat. There are not "types" who inherently can or cannot "achieve" results... and no one knows what the results will be when starting out anyway.

"It seems many have then tried to create a more 'sophisticated' spirituality of sorts, which is based on hodge-podge of rational science as well as various unscientific unprovable vague beliefs like oneness, voidness, no-thing-ness, etc."

-- I don't see that anyone here has "tried to create" any sort of different or "more sophisticated" "hodge-podge" type of spirituality or other beliefs. These notions like "oneness, voidness, no-thing-ness" are merely concepts.

"I would suggest that none of your, tAo or Tucon's spiritual experiences are objectively provable"

-- No doubt, but neither Brian, nor Tucson, nor I have ever said that such "experiences" are proveable. None of us is touting "experiences" as proof of anything.

"I would argue that there is no objective proof whatsoever for some sort of primordial state in Dzogchen..."

-- You still have no understanding of what dzogchen is about. The "primordial" is simply awareness, not some "state". Awareness needs no "proof". And the 'self-perfected state' as it is referred to, simply means the recognition of the prior nature of awareness. There is no "proof" necessary. Its really rather lame how George judges things without first obtaining a clear understanding of what it is that he is judging. This tells far more about George and his questionable motives here, than anything else.

"...or the existence of chi in tai-chi. Yet these appear to be your beliefs. If you are entitled to such unscientific unprovable beliefs, why not the others in a god or RS?"

-- I personally don't think that Brian holds any such beliefs about Tai Chi. Tai Chi is not a belief, it is simply a type of physical & mental & energetic exercise to develop (I assume) a more harmonious integration of body and mind. However, I am not a practitioner of Tai Chi, and so I am not at all knowedgeable about it. Brian can address this Tai Chi thing much better than I anyway.

"Tao, It is you who keeps missing the point."

-- You mean the "point" that YOU keep trying to evade and twist into something else? LOL

"i am simply not interested in the 'meditation procedure'."

-- Then why have you argued about it so much? And if you are "not interested" in it, then why do you assume that other initiates disagree with the info that I related, which is exactly what Santmat and the RSSB itself teaches?

"You don't get it. where do you get this from?"

-- From YOU George... from YOUR comments.

"Its you and Smack and others above that were arguing about the meditiation procedure"

-- No George, it was YOU who came forward and YOU who doubted my simple rendition of the RS meditation, it was YOU who said that other "pro-RS" believers would disagree with my explanation. If you are not interested, then why even question my explanation? Your little tricks don't fool us George.

"i dont care."

-- You DO care, because if you did not care, then you would not have concerned yourself and not have challenged my info.

"I spoke generally about these tenets being only tools used to open one's mind"

-- Again, the medatitaion practice is not simply a "tool", it is the core practice. Vegetarianism is an aid/tool, but not the meditation. Moreover, as I said before, the goal is NOT to "open one's mind". It is to transcend the body and the mind, and to eventually enter the purely spiritual plane/realm. The goal of RS is NOT at all to "open one's mind". I had already explaind that to you some time ago. But you have ignored (and even doubted) every bit of information that I have offered and shared regarding the RS meditation path.

"The problem is you are reading what you want to and not what is actually there."

-- No George, that is clearly what YOU have been doing. The evidence is all there in your previous comments.

"please no more about your extenstive 30-year experience and brilliance."

-- The only reason that I had made any note of my long experince with RS, was to establish wherefrom I derive my information and my knowledge. The basic inforamtion that I have offered has been sincere and accurate, and I never claimed any such "brilliance". Your complaint is just another lame attempt to personally ridicule me.

"i've known ppl who've worked in science for 30 years who cant grasp concepts that its takes some a few minutes to comprehend."

-- That has nothing to do with me.

"imo your links on quantum theory are akin to new-age rubbish"

-- Thats not what Dr Henry Stapp - who btw is a professor at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory - thinks. I happen to know him personally, and he is quite familiar with this work and these papers, and he just happens to much approve of this work. You can contact him and ask him yourself if you feel so inclined.

So again George, your attempt at ridicule is revealed for what it really is... empty and unfounded. And I knew your derisive little game practically from the very get-go.

"amateurs should not dabble in something they have no comprehension of and hold it out as somehow being authoritive"

-- Unfortunately for YOU George, that is not what Dr Henry Stapp - a renowned quantum physicist - thinks. Here is a Wiki excerpt on Dr Stapp's background:

"Henry Stapp is an American physicist, well-known for his work in quantum mechanics.
After receiving his PhD in particle physics at the University of California, Berkeley, under the supervision of Nobel Laureates Emilio Segrè and Owen Chamberlain, Stapp moved to ETH Zurich to do post-doctoral work under Wolfgang Pauli. During this period he composed an article called 'Mind, Matter and Quantum Mechanics', which he never sent for publication, but would become the title of his 1993 book. When Pauli died in 1958, Stapp transferred to Munich, now in the company of Werner Heisenberg. While making important contributions to, inter alia, the analysis of proton-proton scattering and the development of analytic S-matrix theory, Stapp is perhaps most well known for his ongoing work in the foundations of quantum mechanics, with particular focus on explicating the role and nature of consciousness. He is also an expert on Bell's Theorem, having solved problems related to non-locality presented by John Bell and Albert Einstein. He is a professor at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory."

-- So George, your pretentious intellect and supposed scientific background just doesn't cut the mustard here. Your puffed-up little put-down game hasn't fooled anyone.

"It looks like you guys got together in the back of someone's garage and chucked something together from a 2nd year physics text, your fundamental mathematics is horrific for a start."

-- Well... again, thats not what Dr Stapp thinks.

[For additional info on Dr Henry Stapp, readers can go here]:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Stapp


Adios George, and better troll-luck next time.

I like Rose's straightforward practicality and honesty, and once again tAo has clearly elucidated Sant Mat tenets while displelling the clouds George deliberately tries to make.

tAo, I think that could have been a Dzogchen response- measured, level, aware, attentive and harmless.

George, thanks for your opposition. Find a book on the history of sant mat- I think David Lane's book is called 'A Radha Soami Tradition'and it can be downloaded. The straight forward info contained therein, is revealing.

More relevant questions from Roger. Come on, who can answer?!

Rose, that was interesting. There are certain questions that Satsangis don't ask. They are considered rude, personal and unnecessary questions, but they are telling. Here they are;
Where do/ did the Gurus children go to school/ university? ( Name the institutions) What are their names and what do they do now? What is the gurus wife's name? What was her line of business/ work? What does she do now? What did the guru do in his line of the electronics business? Has he retired or is he paid as an absent partner?
How many family houses does the guru have and where are they? Is there a jet? Where does it park?

No satsangi has been able to answer these basic questions. Anyone able to?

Dear Roger,
I am in my 4th cycle and I now know that I am a
continuum.I was never born and I never die.I did all my cycles at the same time in the endless NOW.I
reveal this secret so that others may learn that no
guru is needed for this for what we are is an IS and not a happening and how do you find this secret.You need to die before you die and then you dont die when you die.
Enjoy
Love
Obed

Catherine,

You are right. Those questions are telling in that, if people don't ask those sorts of questions, it gives Gurinder more license to do whatever he wants from all the money gained through the organisation. There should be complete transparency with any position of power, imo.

There is an except from Origin and Growth detailing how the Guru gets all RS properties and donations. It's posted in the following blog post: http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2009/01/a-critique-of-radha-soami-satsang-beas.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2011168d30556970c

So considering all properties and donations go to the Guru, he's worth a whole lot of money. So I don't think it's surprising if his kids went to Eton (the Princes of England went to school there). Even if it turns out that they didn't go there after all, it is worth adding this question to your list:

Why do all monetary donations and properties go to the Guru if he has his own electronics business? Surely, he should be the picture of humble living.

Obed,

Thanks for the reply. The continuum is nice.

Roger

Catherine

I think I have answers to some of your questions.Well I haven't asked these questions to Guru.

Gurinder was not in electronics business, he was working with Balanis in Malaga Spain. Balanis were importers/distributors of watches like seiko, citizn, orient etc.

Gurinder was not a partner and he was in the administration. I think his wife's name is Shabnam.She is not in any business, most of the times she is also with Gurinder especially in Europe. U.K. is the second home of Gurinder, as Dallhousie was of Charan Singh.

The father of Shabnam(Father in law of Gurinder) is now an active Sevadar, after the differences with Kuku(son of Charan Singh)have been calmed.

A complete information regarding admission of his children in Eton College in UK was collected, but whether his children studied there or not I don't know.

The elder son of Gurinder is married and the younger was still studying, I don't know where.

There is a helipad in Beas.I don't know how many houses Gurinder owns.


Juan,

There's a helipad in Beas? I did not know that! Very useful to know, so thanks for the information :)

Juan (and others),
What was the dispute between Kuku (son of Charan) and Gurdiner?

I love Sant Mat gossip. It would be great to have a monthly Sant Mat gossip magazine that delves into the lives of the major players, paparazzi photos, scandals, etc.

Headlines on the front cover could include:

--Does my bum look big on this meditation mat?
--Beauty secrets of the Masters
--Master's New York turban shopping spree
--"I'm judgmental and arrogant": Sevadar tells all

That's what I'm talking about.

Oh hell, I just couldn't resist...

Well here's a few choice tidbits for that gossip mag... which perhaps could even be named "SMACK" (in this case, an acronym/abbreviation for "Sant Mat Asses, Creeps, & Kooks"):

Now on to the uhh, sticky stuff...

Gurinder has at least one private jet (maybe more), apparently donated by the Ranbaxy Pharmaceuticals (pharma drug pushers) family, of all people! Don't know where it is parked, but certainly not at Beas. That's what the heli-pad is for... to airlift the master and his VIP entourage to to the jet, so he won't have to use his divine gihf-powers. That heli-pad is also used for other incoming VIPs (like wealthy people and government vips) coming to visit the Dera.

Gurinder also apparantly has several very expensive vacation or retreat houses/properties... supposedly one in Hawaii, one in northern India, in the U.K., and most likely some other places.

Income: Well personally, I don't think Gurinder gets any income from Spain, unless it is a very small allowance or retirement' (although unlikely). I believe (imo) that his his expenses (including housing properties and all his family & children expenses) are ALL paid by the RSSB from donation and business income funds. He basically works for and serves the interests of the RSSB, even though on the surface for PR purposes, he is treated like a king/maharaja. Although in many ways he is actually a feudal lord.

Ahhh yes... it rather stinks doesn't it?


Y'all take care now, and I'll be back in about a month with another sleaze report. Until then you can tune into TMZ for Gurinder's Bollywood connections and celebrity escapades. And mabe Smack will get that online magazine (gossip blog?) up and running.

Ohhh Yeeeaaahhh !!!

That was tasty... and I must say I really like the name!

SMACK Special Report:

This just came in. All you spiritual master gossip freaks will definitely want to go read the blog I've linked to below.

It's actually very appropriate to this recent discussion about the RSSB "spiritual master" personal info thing.

The blog is authored by a very close and long-time friend of mine by the name of Les Visible. The name of this particular spiritual/metaphysical blog of his is "Visible Origami" (he has other blogs too).

And the latest blog article I am referring to is titled: "The Spiritual Master Game and Official T-Shirt". It's all about the Spiritual Master Game (the one that all spiritual masters must play). The article is both insightful and humorous. Just the thing for us Churchless observers of the RS spiritual master game.

So enjoy, and also become enlightened about "spiritual masters"... all at the same time! You must read through the entire article though. Just click here:

http://lesvisible.blogspot.com/2009/05/spiritual-master-game-and-official-t_01.html

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