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November 27, 2007

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Dear Fred,

I am greatly impressed to see an exhaustive, minutely detailed and researched document on SM. After doing so much for such a long time, you appear to have not made the desired progress on the inner path.

On the contrary, many illiterate persons in India even in my close family have
made phenomenal progress. If you ask me how do I know it? I can only say that it is the evolving attributes in the people whom you see all through for decades.

I began to attend satsang in 1968 and got initiated in October 1981. It was quite wonderful but slowly slowly when I engrossed myself in sewa, no activity on this earth attracted my attention as much as much sewa and other satsang activities.

As told very often that one should continue to remember death and God always. As a child, I followed it in word and spirit. One fine morning I developed a feeling that I must commit suicide and used to weep for no reason.

I knew an old initiate of Maharaj Sawan Singh ji whom I knew that he used to spend 10-12 hours of the day in meditation. He was my great grand father. Very often I used to go to him in such situations to seek solution from him.

I never used to tell him my problems but he would come to know at his own. As I sat next to him, he asked my welfare and after a few minutes he stated the following incidence of his life.

“He (Babu Purushotam Singh) said at age of 21 when he was married. He started preparing posters and pasted them of the walls of his bed room stating that one must remember God and death always. Soon neighbors realized the problem with newly wed boy. They advised him to go for a movie etc, He further told that he came across the literature that one should not remember the death always and rather attend to meditation." There was a hidden reply to my problems. Slowly the time passed by and things became normal

Subsequently, I wanted to leave sewa and I left it. You will not believe it that I felt so light and a free bird. But at the core my heart, I know the meditation alone is the path to inner realms. Nothing more can be shared. SM is not mathematics. Things come at their own.

I do not have much to share with a stalwart like you.

Wishing you a nice time ahead,

"Things come at their own."

Very well put. We do not know all the variables involved in ones awakening to oneness.

It appears that when the mind is ready to awaken then it will awaken and no amount of individual effort can cause it to happen.

I suspect there is a whole host of variables involved in this awakening process and mediation being one of those significant variables and life experiences being another and significant emotional events in our lives being another.

Not sure I agree at this time that meditation alone is the path to the inner realms. As stated above I suspect there are many variables involved to finding the truths that exist all around us. But I do agree that meditation is one of those significant variables.

Some people have profound mystical experiences and have not meditated. Why is this if mediation is the only path? Could they have been deep into meditation in a past life and the mystical experience comes to them in this life?

Rakesh writes:

"On the contrary, many illiterate persons in India even in my close family have
made phenomenal progress. If you ask me how do I know it? I can only say that it is the evolving attributes in the people whom you see all through for decades."

You simply cannot know with any certaintly that such people have "made phenomenal progress". Progress in what? The goal of Sant mat is not to gain "evolving attributes". Just because some people's outward behavior improves somewhat after taking up Sant Mat, does not prove that there has occured any real spiritual progress. It all depends upon how and what you define "progress" as being. I don't consider changes in personality and outward social behavior, or even mlore peace of mind, to be any certain proof of spiritual realization. Millions of people lead better lives after taking up religion, but that does not equate to actual spiritual realization, liberation, enlightenment, or what have you. So I must really disagree with you when it comes to your presumption of simple-minded illiterate Indians making "phenomenal progress". I don't buy it. And I think that you are also romanticising the esoteric a bit by saying that.


Brian,

You might want to check-out the "Recent Comments" Links. Some of them are not functioning at all and also they don't access, or rather show, the respective comments. Some comments that have been posted are not showing up at all, even though the links are there in the menu.

If you fix it, you can then of course delete this comment.


Fred,

It is refreshing to see a (ex) satsangi thinking so clearly and independently which is discouraged in Sant Mat..the mind is the negative power and all that rot. Congratulations on waking up to being normal. I know the feeling well.

When Charan passed on I still had one foot on the path, so to speak, but when I saw Gurinder, my RS ship began to sink fast. My intuition was shouting "warning" "warning".

Now, many years later I have no regrets. Leaving the path may leave you with a feeling of being in a spiritual no man's land, but I wouldn't be in a hurry to fill the void with some spiritual process or another. That will come if it must, but without a structured belief system I think you have the opportunity to be free, as you are, in this present moment. This is a great thing, and the more you delve into it, it is the only thing..just this, as it is now.

Have fun!

Rakesh wrote: "I know the meditation alone is the path to inner realms."

What is located in the inner realms that is not present where we are at any given moment other than different appearing phenomena? When we are here, we are here. When we are there then that will be here. Here is always immediately available and all that there ever is. When we are always thinking about getting there, then we are never fully here and will continue to be restless and unhappy even though we are already at the only place we can ever be.

"Here is always immediately available and all that there ever is."

Speaking materialistically this may be the case but speaking in terms of perception and reality our "here" has many different levels of awareness.

We might be fully here but are we fully aware. Being here is not being aware.

Surely someone that cannot see the subtle but profound difference between sympathy and compassion cannot claim that we are always fully aware.

Something happened to me just 2 hours ago that showed me the difference between sympathy and compassion. Karma did its thing again just like it just did to Tao on the parrot comment.

Driving home from this incident I realized that I had shown sympathy but not compassion. The journey on the path to awareness continues. We are gods in the making never realizing we are always that that is. That is the power of ignorance. But without that ignorance (i.e. innocence) oneness cannot express its dynamic potential.

At this point of our human evolution compassion is a rare response from most humans including myself. In an out of body experience over 17 years ago I did experience telepathy, a life review, and compassion. Nothing that I have experienced on this earth realm even comes close to this experience.

We do not forever remain in our ignorance unless you are into the advaita religion and they appear to love to remain in ignorance, but hey they are always here.

For Fred... before he bites the dust.

Take this prescription and feel better in no time:

I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5-zMV1x6q0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ6Ey1MrWyc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_-P5NntJ8Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUn7tSNHkMw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ietCeAgLs3I


II.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-EVxtEpyMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZROHDq0M1y8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPzmjpM2ey0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsbTEx20YCI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3HLRmDQJ-Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6L1AKrioZs


To willliam:

It appears that you really do not listen to, or comprehend, anything that anyone else says.

And its probably because you are in such denial that you don't want to admit that you are wrong evn when it is a very minor instance.

Such as: As I already told you, I deliberately posted twice for a reason, and not because of any supposed "karma" as you continue to insist upon, and against the facts.

This simple incident reveals the fundamental crux of your mental problem... and for all to see. Sadly, your credibility is nearing rock-bottom... zero. The more you say, the bigger fool you show yourself to be. If you weren't such a neophyte, and had any sense at all, you would restrain yourself from posting further BS.


Dear Tao,

I have gone through your comments. You are absolutely right. In some people, being on and following some spiritual path, the outward appearance changes, they begin to behave sensibly and their whole attitude towards life changes; does not qualify that they have achieved something spiritually.

To put forth my view point, I may say that the inner core of the earth is solid. I have not seen it. But attributes of the testing media reveal so. This inadequate example may let you feel the spiritual progress of your fellow beings.

I regret my inability to put the things in words. Yet I strongly believe that there is a medium of understanding beyond words as well.

Everything can be refuted in words but everything can not be expressed in words.

I am absolutely clear that I am not romanticizing with words.

With regards,

Tao: my words have hurt you deeply for that I apologize. I wish I could say I feel compassion but compassion is beyond most human's response contrary to popular belief.

We in the world and America know so little about compassion even in the 21-century we are having debates about what is torture and how should be torture our captives.

You do the name Tao a great injustice by using it. I hope someday you will come to see that and out of humility want to change to another name.

What a profound statement Jesus is given credit for making and that is the meek shall inherit the earth. We humans have a long journey ahead of us to achieve that meekness. I have found very few people in the world that understands that very simple phase. Dr Hora being the exception.

Again my words were harsh and for that I apologize. I was only proving a point in my research about the paradigm effect and how certainty comes from doubt not a knowing beyond knowing as the Buddhist state or understanding as Dr Hora teaches.

My cause I doubt was noble as people were hurt. Yes I proved my point but at what cost? I have learned much from posting on this blog thank you all for that.
Bless you all
William

William,

You have sealed the deal. After reading your stunningly dense 6:14 pm response to my comment, I am now fully and finally convinced that it is indeed utterly futile to attempt to convey to you what I am trying to say. You can only hear yourself.

Tucson and Tao,

Hopefully, this back and forth debate with William will end. These long winded threads give me a headache.

I like it when you two write a simple common sense essay on a particular topic. Then a follow up comment to clarify the issue.

Maybe, we can get back to that routine...
Roger

Tao,

The following comment that you made above, is an example of what I enjoy reading. It makes much sense.

"You simply cannot know with any certaintly that such people have "made phenomenal progress". Progress in what? The goal of Sant mat is not to gain "evolving attributes". Just because some people's outward behavior improves somewhat after taking up Sant Mat, does not prove that there has occured any real spiritual progress. It all depends upon how and what you define "progress" as being. I don't consider changes in personality and outward social behavior, or even mlore peace of mind, to be any certain proof of spiritual realization. Millions of people lead better lives after taking up religion, but that does not equate to actual spiritual realization, liberation, enlightenment, or what have you. So I must really disagree with you when it comes to your presumption of simple-minded illiterate Indians making "phenomenal progress". I don't buy it. And I think that you are also romanticising the esoteric a bit by saying that."

Excellent comment...
Roger

Roger wrote: "Hopefully, this back and forth debate with William will end. These long winded threads give me a headache.

I like it when you two write a simple common sense essay on a particular topic. Then a follow up comment to clarify the issue."

--Thanks Roger and as far as I'm concerned the debate with William has ended. I admit to letting his incredibly sophomoric attitude get under my skin a few times. I'm sure tAo knows what I'm talking about.

Hopefully, in the midst of the pettiness was some ineresting content, but it was getting repetitive and no one was getting anywhere a long time ago. The blog is here for debate and discussion, but enough is enough. I agree.

Ahhhh Fred. You are now ready to gird up your loins and wander into the lions cage of opposition! Go to Yahoo Group called Radhasoamistudies. Watch this clip for tips.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=79i84xYelZI

The lion is David Lane. Mostly bored with the whole thing by now. The yappy little dog? Well, take your pick. Though many qualify, some swear it is poster Hoormji.

To all. I was a member, initiate, and follower of Sat Mat many many years ago. I traveled to Beas. I've had many spiritual experiences. I had it with people being spiritual,, and organizations.
I think the problem was it was 'The Path of The Masters',, not the Path of The Seekers.
I've finally found what I've been looking for.
Yall should read 'The Power of Now'. Maybe it will send you in a better direction.
jackson

Get out the shovel.

Hi. I’m an RSSB initiate. My name is _____.

Two years ago, during a period of pronounced depression, for the first time in my life, I sought professional help from a psychologist. I was longing to spill my guts. This lady swiftly took the wind out of my sails by declaring her technique – go home, make a list of your beliefs and come back and see me when you’re done. I left that office feeling more depressed and certain that she was wrong to say that to me.

On reflection, I’ve realized that I’ve been working on that list since that day, mentally identifying belief-thoughts and simultaneously questioning their validity. This process has led me to gradually abandon much of what I had gathered from RSSB. But I’m not left with nothing.

Some of what the RSSB gurus have said and written still rings true for me, like when Sawan Singh, wrote; “Death-bed is no joke”. That one passes my tests. I also believe, to paraphrase Woody Allen, that the greatest power in the world is the power of distraction. Hey you, over here, eyes on the page.

Every time I read or hear anything RSSB, pro or con, I get out my shovel. I’m prepared to do the hard work of clearing my mind of “false and shallow beliefs”, to quote the official founder of the RSSB line of gurus, Shiv Dayal Singh. I believe that these very same gurus have fed plenty of “false and shallow beliefs” to their disciples. They have fed many chapattis and dal to the destitute. Before you start furiously typing a rebuttal that they used donor money to feed the destitute, yes, that’s true as well. Can’t seem to get a god-damned one sided coin these days.

I now live in a state of realized uncertainty and it’s not real warm and fuzzy. But I am proud of my progress and awareness. It feels like it might be what I've heard Gurinder refer to as "spiritual maturity". It gives me the kind of self-confidence that allows me to read and hear slanderous words as well as blind praise of RSSB, its leaders and followers. I’ve got game when it comes to sniffing out bullshit, whether in my head or outside of it.

Church of the Churchless is obviously ironic. But also ironic are the expressions on this and other sites, by former satsangis, of feeling freedom by complete rejection of RSSB and accusations of fraud perpetrated by its gurus. I don’t believe that it’s freedom to be certain, you might say “churched”, of anything.

Please get out the shovel. It’s a great tool. It removes BS, and with it you can dig for “true and deep” beliefs, to quote myself.

Cheers

aliveandkickin,

You wrote: "Church of the Churchless is obviously ironic. But also ironic are the expressions on this and other sites, by former satsangis, of feeling freedom by complete rejection of RSSB and accusations of fraud perpetrated by its gurus. I don’t believe that it’s freedom to be certain, you might say “churched”, of anything."

Its nice to see your progress from dogma to uncertainty... but just to let you know, since you seem to think otherwise, some of have already been there and done that. Don't be so damn sure as you obviously are, that "ironic are the expressions on this and other sites, by former satsangis, of feeling freedom by complete rejection of RSSB". I can see that you have some presumptions about others that are not based in fact and Self-knowledge, but merely your own ego-centric assumptions of "I’ve got game when it comes to sniffing out bullshit, whether in my head or outside of it." - Sorry, but I don't think so.

And you missed a belief or two of yours, because you made the mistake of being so sure of as you said, "the expressions on this and other sites, by former satsangis, of feeling freedom by complete rejection of RSSB and accusations of fraud". That's just not the case.

Just because you now claim to have a newfound uncertainty, does not mean that other ex-satsangis feel "freedom" by merely having simply exchanged or turned their positive beliefs in RSSB, into negative beliefs. Many of us hold no such negative certainty. And some of us do have a different type of certainty which comes from Self-knowledge. But in as much as you still hang on to aspects of RS, I don't think that is true of you yet. But hey, 'keep on shoveling' (and truckin) and you'll get there/here.

Speaking for myself, here is an example: Having already tread the over-all spiritual path as a serious yogi in India for at least 15 years prior, about 30 years ago (mostly out of curiousity) I got into RS. After about six years of significant experience in RS, I left or dropped RS completely and effortlessly. But more importantly, unlike many/most RS satsangis, I did not ever rigidly subscribe to or hold to any RS beliefs to begin with or during, and so I left/dropped RS without any beliefs either.

Whatever comments or criticisms about RS that I have posted here are not some such counter beliefs as you apparently mistakenly assume, but rather simply observations and insights.

Also, don't be so cock-sure that you are as free of RS as you pretend or would like to be, nor that others here are somehow still hung up in a kind of certainty of negative beliefs about RS.

As it is said: "Take the beam out of your own eye first, before seeking to point out the minute dust particle in another one's eye." [Btw: That also definitely applies to William too]

Good luck with shoveling... but you also just might need a nice sharp axe too.



To jackson,

Its nice that you think that you found what you are looking for, and thanks for your suggestion, but I (and perhaps others) don't need to read 'The Power of Now'. Nor do I need to be sent in any "better direction".

In your enthusiasm over Tolle, and your lack of attention to the over-all drift of this blog when it comes to RS, you apparently mistakenly presume that others here are somehow hung up in RS like you were.

Also, the problem is BOTH "The Path of The Masters", AND "The Path of The Seekers.

And I certainly don't think that Tolle has anything much to offer, other than mostly pseudo-non-dual fluff nicely packaged for mass consumption and thus money making.

Btw, when it comes to serious advaita type talks and lectures, Parsons beats (or rather pulls the rug out from under) Tolle's jive by a hundred miles.


Thanks Tucson for the encouragement. I am certainly in no hurry to fill the spiritual void, however, the quest for reality continues. To this end, thanks tAo for the Parsons links, so much to read …

Rakesh wrote:
One fine morning I developed a feeling that I must commit suicide and used to weep for no reason....

Don't fool yourself RakeshJi. These are signs of depression. You seems like in a state of denial.

Dear Sapient,
You are correct it was a sign of depression. I was talking of way back in 1976. It developed by keeping myself cofined to my studies as a student and madly involved in listening to satsang etc. No other activity. It was an obsession.There is no denial of any kind.

with regards,

I don't know why you ex satsangis complain so much about the path. All I've read on this site is nothing but excuse to leave the path & you guys say that nothing happened to me or I didn't make any progress. You people think that GOD is a toy which you can get so easily. I've not been initiated yet but still I've seen inner progress just by keeping faith in the master & working hard towards meditation. This is not a fairytale & you need to work hard to achieve a higher state of consciousness so my advice to all would be stop complaining like a baby & take resposibility for yourself & work hard towards meditation & I guarantee you'll see results.

Aman Sandhu,

Who says that those at the Churchless have not progressed. They have progressed quite far spiritually. That is why they ditched the stale old RS dogma for a breath of fresh air.

I don't understand what dogma are you talking about. No master says he is God, when books refer to him as God incarnate it only means that the soul which is the master has raised his consciousness to the level of infinite consciousness that's all. No one is telling anyone to do seva or listen to sangat as compulsory, no one is telling yo to call the master as master you can call him a friend, a guide etc. I'm only saying that meditation should be your focus & it works but people want to shift their attention to other things like organisation, adminstration etc. which is a waste of time. A spiritual seeker should be concerned about his meditation only, even I'm not a big fan of rssb administration staff etc. but they don't matter to me. I'm only concerned with the master & meditation that's it. So instead of giving excuses that we are not making progress or blaiming the path one should focus on meditation because it really works.

*I'm only saying that meditation should be your focus & it works*

As a complete novice, meditationally speaking, in what way does meditation "work"?

Are you claiming that meditation has an end product, is something that operates/functions in a karmic capacity?

How has meditation worked for you? What is your proof that it works?

Aman you said: I'm only concerned with the master & meditation that's it.

Now why hang on to the Master? Is it not a fact that you are still clinging to an idea that the Master is perfect or has merged his identity with the universal consciousness. How do you know that he has done it.

Why don't you just meditate without the notions of the master-disciplieship (which is such a stupid duality).

Dear helen

Obviously I'm not saying I'm a saint or a master or that i've attained the highest state :-) I'm not even initiated yet but I'm only saying that when people complain about not having any inner progress & blaim the path I just feel it's not true because inner progress happens you only need to work hard & have some faith not too much faith but enough to keep you going. You can only have complete faith when you get some experience but till that time one should not get discouraged about meditation if nothing is happening, because really believe it or no we need to get our mind pure for the divine to expand our consciousness. The problem is we all take this meditation like a mechanical thing & thus it doesn't have the element of bhakti or devotion it's more like science to you & I think people have started taking this word science in sant mat in a very wrong way, actually sant mat or meditation should be practiced as devotional process not scientific, saints in the past have called it science because no matter what if people follow the intructions well it gives similar results to all. The only proof I can give you is that I asked couple of my friends & relatives to meditate & believe it or not they all got same inner experience as I did which proves to me that yes it is a science in a way. Meditation works in the way that all that is said like astral planes, higher realms etc. they do exist & one can really evolve by doing meditation. Higher consciousness is not a fairy tale it really exists we only need to push harder to achieve the goal because all those theories that we need to wash our inner self, we need to become pure etc. to get some inner experience is actually true.

Dear Deepak

This guru disciple thing is not a stupid duality, you need an ideal to reach a point, you need a guide to move to higher realms inside it's not fairy tale at all, I asked a very evolved person he is my uncle & he is a rssb follower ofcourse that is it really true that people in higher realms who do not have a guide or a perfect master do not know the way ahead & he told me that he found many such holy men inside or rather in those higher realms who did not know the way ahead. All I'm trying to say is this meditation & inner master etc. is real it's not some stupid joke it's actually real so don't get discouraged even if you dont follow rssb doesn't matter but don't think that meditation or the path is not true it's really out there so keep going & do not end your search, I can say that from whatever I know uptil now rssb or sant mat is real maybe not for you but many others whom I asked to meditate were not initiated either but still they all got same inner experience so there is definitely truth in these teachings.

Dear Aman Sandhu or anyone,

I was formerly associated with RSSB for a few decades. Those who frequent this blog will recognize me and will have heard this before:

I have found that following a spiritual path has no particular relevance to 'understanding' which can occur at any time under any circumstance. It's a thin veil, a trick of perception that is a result of our habits and conditioning.

A spiritual path is based on the presumption of an individual that needs to go through a variety of disciplines and correct behaviors in order to purify and get rid of the 'I' or ego, and then achieve reunion with God.

The fundamental point that is missed is that the seeker, at every stage of this quest, is already what he/she is seeking. There is no way to make the seeker any more what they already are. It is matter of looking in the right direction, which is no direction at all, to see this: that you are just a phantom, a dreamed character in a play you are playing a role in. There is no individual. No separate soul. No ego to overcome.

There are no particular qualifications for perceiving this because Absolute is perfectly present in all circumstances and has no need for special diets, disciplines or gurus.

Absolute is always present HERE whether one is loading the dishwasher or experiencing a grand vison of the universe in some exotic inner region.

When this is seen, the game of the spiritual quest appears silly, like a dog chasing it's tail. There is nothing wrong with playing that game. It is your role in the play. Carry on, have fun, but none of it leads to what you are, which you already are, whether you know it or not. Your glasses are on your nose, silly!

What you already are is the unborn, and thus undying, Presence that is prior to all phenomena and thought..Alakh, Agam, Anami. It can't be conceived or circumscribed in any way because in doing so it would be making an object out of itself. This is how the One becomes two, the universe manifests and the illusion of individuality begins.

The One is playing a game of hide and seek with itself. All paths lead to nowhere because there is nowhere to go. Just be as you are, really are, right now which is just fine as it is.


Tulsi Ortega has answered me for me, Mr. Aman Sandhu. If it has to happen, ithappens by itself. Effortless. Even a donkey puts in efforts and all it gets is lashes. Is it not?

Well its a slow night tonight, so I guess I'll take up one of my minor hobbies and tear some of Aman Sandhu's previous comments to shreds. *wink*

You know... the skeptics will love it, and the believers will hate it... but hey, you can't please em all. But at least I'll please my comrades. heh heh. But ummm, don't worry folks, I'll be sure to try to generally avoid getting too personal.

So as per my usual format, I'll first present the quotations, and then comes the sharp-bladed "shredder". I can hear it cranking up now...


Aman Sandhu wrote:

"what dogma are you talking about"

-- What dogma? Duhhhhh... that would be the DOGMA that is written on every page of every RS book and publication, and the dogma that is constantly touted in each and every RS satsang meeting across the globe, and the dogma that is spoken by the RS so-called "master" in every satsang/darshan lecture that he gives.

"when books refer to him as God incarnate it only means that the soul which is the master has raised his consciousness to the level of infinite consciousness"

-- Wrong wrong wrong. Santmat and RS absolutely does NOT teach that the "soul" is the "master". You must be following a different RS path. And also how would you know what someone such as the RS guru has "raised his consciousness"? Not to mention the total ambiguity of the term "infinite consciousness".

"No one is telling anyone to do seva or listen to sangat as compulsory"

-- Seva and satsang is techically not compulsory, but just try not going to satsang for awhile and see how you get treated by the so-called "sangat. Just see what they are "telling" you then. Furthermore, it is said and implied by the RS teachings that if you do not attend satsang, then you will likely come under the influence of the awful dreaded Kal.

" meditation should be your focus & it works"

-- How would you know what "should" be the focus of other individuals? And since you have admitted that you are not yet initiated and you have no actual experience, so how could you possibly know that "it works" ??? You don't. You are just another joker who thinks that parrotting RS is somehow meaningful evidence. Go meditate for 30 years and then get back to me.

"things like organisation, adminstration etc. which is a waste of time."

-- Yes, a waste of time. But "organisation, adminstration etc" is precisely what RSSB is all about.

"A spiritual seeker should be concerned about his meditation only"

-- Who says anyone here is a "seeker"? And what makes you think that you have any damn business telling others what they "should be concerned" about?

"I'm only concerned with the master & meditation that's it."

-- That's entirely your problem, not ours. We do hope you get cured soon.

"instead of giving excuses that we are not making progress or blaiming the path"

-- No one here is "giving excuses" for anything or "blaiming the path". You obviously have not been paying attention and have somehow grossly misinterpreted the articles and comments.

"focus on meditation because it really works."

-- Better if you"focus" instead of tellg others what to do. And again, how would know if "it really works"? You are not even initiated and thus have no experience that you can speak from.

"I'm not even initiated yet"

-- Then why are you being such a pompous ass by trying to tell others, who btw have decades of experience, how things are?

"I'm only saying that when people complain"

-- Look who's complaining. You are the one who is complaining.

"inner progress happens you only need to work hard & have some faith not too much faith but enough to keep you going."

-- Sounds like a good receipe for religious cultism.

"You can only have complete faith when you get some experience"

-- Wrong again. Faith is simply belief and assurance in things unseen. Experience does not require faith. Faith is only needed when there is no direct experience. So where is the proof and the experience?

"one should not get discouraged about meditation if nothing is happening because..."

-- No one here is "discouraged". And meditation is a very individual affair. And what do you thionk and presume is supposed to be "happening" in meditation?

"....we need to get our mind pure for the divine to expand our consciousness."

-- My mind is pure. Absoluely. And I also don't need my consciousnes expanded. But the way you talk and what you say, it is apparently your mind that seems not to be "pure".

"problem is we ... take this meditation like a mechanical thing & thus it doesn't have the element of bhakti or devotion it's more like science"

-- But that's precisely what RS calls it... 'Science of the Soul'. And bhakit is all about devotion and faith and belief, and not about science, knowledge, or proof.

"people have started taking this word science in sant mat in a very wrong way, actually sant mat or meditation should be practiced as devotional process not scientific"

-- Thats your mistaken opinion, but its not the opinion of sant mat and sant mat gurus.

"if people follow the intructions well it gives similar results to all."

-- Not true. Where are these so-called "results" and how do you know that they are all "similar"? There are no reported results and experiences are not similar.

"only proof I can give you is that I asked couple of my friends & relatives to meditate & believe it or not they all got same inner experience as I did"

-- How is that "proof"? And what was this "experience" that was supposedly the "same"?

"which proves to me that yes it is a science in a way."

-- Then you don't understand the standard meaning of "science".

"Meditation works"

-- How so?

"astral planes, higher realms etc. they do exist & one can really evolve"

-- In terms of Sant mat and RS, how could you know that? How do you know that "astral planes" and " higher realms" exist? You are not even initiated. You are just an inexperienced babbling fool.

"Higher consciousness is not a fairy tale it really exists"

-- Then you should have no problem proving it. And what is "Higher" about consciousness?

"push harder to achieve the goal because all those theories that we need to wash our inner self we need to become pure"

-- Yes... just "Theories" is right. So where is this "inner self", and who is it that needs "to become pure"?

"to get some inner experience"

-- Why?

"This guru disciple thing is not a stupid duality"

-- Why not? It may or may not be stupid, but it is definitely duality.

" you need an ideal to reach a point, you need a guide to move to higher realms inside"

-- Who says? You say? How could you possibly know what other people need? Why do you think that you need to "move to higher realms"? How would you know this? You are just believing what you have been told by other people who don't know either. Like the blind leading the blind.

"it's not fairy tale at all"

-- You sure could of fooled me. If it looks like, sounds like, smells like, tastes like, feels like, then it most likely is.... a "fairy tale".

"I asked a very evolved person...."

-- How is he "evolved"?

"....is it really true that people in higher realms who do not have a guide or a perfect master do not know the way ahead"?

-- Its funny how people like you who don't evn have half a clue, assume such things. Because there is no beginning to your ridiculous premise.

"he told me that he found many such holy men inside or rather in those higher realms who did not know the way ahead. "

-- What unbelievable rubbish. If they even existed at all, and they were "holy", then they would have no problem. But the entire story is a fiction. You must think that we are stupid here. But your story is as stupid as it gets.

"this meditation & inner master etc. is real it's not some stupid joke it's actually real"

-- Then prove it. Don't come her touting fantasies and expect people to buy such subjective nonsense.

"even if you dont follow rssb doesn't matter"

-- It sure doesn't.

"meditation or the path is not true it's really out there"

-- You got that one right.

" so keep going & do not end your search"

-- Who's searching?

"I can say that from whatever I know"

-- What do you know?

"there is definitely truth in these teachings."

-- Then it should be easy to prove that. So please prove it... or shut-up.


Mr. Tao I was thinking that here people are actually interested in spirituality & somehow I thought that maybe because I could see the truth in these teachings & meditation & if I shared my view maybe some people would actually give meditation another honest try but now it seems I'm wasting my time with people like you who don't want to even believe if someone else is telling them that yes I've tested this meditation without being an initiate & by just having faith in the master & giving it a try I could get results, inner experiences. Anyways you guys can waste your time in fighting & complaining about the path. I don't think my intensions were appreciated in the right sense. I don't give a dam whether you evolve spiritually or no, neither do I care if you follow rssb or no. I was only sharing my experience with you guys so that maybe you can also give meditation another chance but now it seems you guys a not interested in spirituality instead you are just interested in giving excuses about why you failed on the path & just bitch about rssb for your failures so anyways I only wanted to convey that if without being initiated I could get inner experiences then those ex satsangis should not loose hope & work hard towards meditation. I made the mistake of thinking that you guys are spiritual seekers & now I understood why you guys are so frustrated & why you can't make any progress anyways may God bless everyone. Take care.

Aman, here's the thing: you said that meditation (the RSSB variety, I assume) works. Great. An entirely reasonable follow-up question(s) is what you've been hearing from other commenters.

Tell us more. How does it work? What did you experience? How do you know that what you experienced is true, and not just your imagination? What "higher" knowledge have you brought back that can be shared with others?

Now, you probably would say, "I can't talk about inner experiences." And I'd respond, "But you just did. You said that meditation works."

You've told us that you've had experiences in meditation that lead you to believe it "works." So continue. Explain what you experienced.

That's basically what other commenters are asking -- for you to back up your general statement with specifics. Seems reasonable.

Aman, what in the hell are you talking about?
you write:
"Mr. Tao I was thinking that here people are actually interested in spirituality"

--how can you assume people aren't interested in spirituality just because they argue with you?

"I was only sharing my experience with you guys so that maybe you can also give meditation another chance"

--How do you know people aren't meditating? Brian has stated many times that he has a daily meditation practice, whether it be RSSB meditation or something else.

"now I understood why you guys are so frustrated & why you can't make any progress"

--Who says anyone's frustrated? I personally feel great knowing there's a forum here where I can express my thoughts without reservation. It is those who supress their thoughts who are frustrated. And how can you say nobody is making progress? What progress are you talking about? And why do you think it's your job to inspire others to meditate? If you have faith in the master, doesn't that faith also mean that you believe god in human form could pull his disciples without your help?

Hello Sir Brian

You asked me what have I experienced well I've understood one thing by posting my very first message that here people are too frustrated even to listen to someone who is saying "hey guys listen I think it really works so please try it cause it worked & whatever you read in these books about inner vistas is actually real not imagination". About my personal experience as always I was reading about meditation & sant mat etc. all over the net & where ever I could find anything useful to start meditation. I came across this wonderful explanation about meditation technique in sant mat it's from the book journey to the luminous

Meditation is the process of withdrawing the attention from the world outside, and focusing it at the seat of the soul in the body, behind and between the eyebrows. This point is known as the inner eye, third eye, the single eye, shiv netra, tisra til, or the divya chakshu. In order to withdraw our attention and focus it on this point, mind must be controlled and stilled. Sit in one pose, and move not your head, limbs or eyes. Sit straight but relaxed with no tension in the body below. Sit still, please. To be still does not mean moving. Close your eyes as in sleep, and look sweetly, lovingly, intently into the middle of the darkness lying in front of you. You will see a dark veil. That which sees the dark veil within, without the help of your physical eyes, is the inner eye. Do not put any strain on your physical eyes, nor turn them upwards, for that will result in headache or heat. Pay no attention to the breathing process... let it go on naturally. There are two currents working in the body; one of motor-currents or prana or the vital-airs, and the other of surat, or attention, which gives us the sense of feeling. The Saints do not touch the prana currents which govern breathing, circulation of blood, growing of hair and nails. The pranic system of breath-control is the way of yogis and not that of the Saints. The Saints' way is to concentrate surat or attention at the Single or third eye while mentally repeating the mantra of five charged names which act as an "open sesame" to the higher planes. Those who are initiated, repeat the Five Charged Words**, one by one, very slowly, mentally, internally, at intervals, so that your inner eye is not disturbed. Those who have not been initiated, just sit in sweet remembrance of God... repeating with the tongue of thought any name of God or Saint which you hold dear." (Ram, HU {pronounced "HOOOOO"}, AUM {pronounced "OOOMMM"}, Allah, Yeshua, Radhaswami {Ra-da-SwaMMM-EEEE}, or some other sacred name).
As you look within, you will see a sky, or blue sky: If you look minutely into it, you will find it studded with stars, or you may see pinpoints of Light. If so, try to locate the big star out of them, and fix your whole attention on that. Then you may see the inner sun or moon. If so, focus all your attention into the middle; it will break into pieces, and you will cross it. Beyond you will see the radiant form of the Master..........become the eye itself. Go on looking constantly without a break...Any effort on your part stands in the way; let yours be an effortless effort, and you will find that your soul will be withdrawn from the body.

This information is from the book Journey to the Luminous, by Arran Stephens.
Just like everyone else here I use to try to meditate without any luck..........no vision, no experience no nothing.....when I read this from a website I gave it another try & that's when I understood what I was doing wrong. The key to good concentration is when you close your eyes we need to look I repeat LOOK in the darkness & then things started happening, I could achieve excellent concentration & I finally say these inner skies, stars, moon etc. they were right there & please don't tell me it was imagination cause it was as real as this physical world. I know the difference between imagining things but this was something totally different I could see this black sky filled with stars & my body felt so light like I was about to float off to somewhere. It was real very real infact more real than I expected. I had read about these inner stars etc. in the books & my previous attempts towards meditation were not giving me the results but now I understood the secret was to LOOK in this darkness like gazing in it & trying to see what is there & suddenly concentration was perfect & it got illuminated & I crossed that light to see lights of different colors & then finally I crossed those lights & saw this amazing sky filled with stars etc. & so on. Anyways I don't want to waste anybody's time & I'm not here to preach or do any kind of propaganda for rssb. I'm a super skeptic myself but if it's real I had to admit it is real. If anybody wants to try it they are welcome & I told this same technique to others & they saw these lights & stars & the important thing was they never heard of sant mat & they didn't know anything about what they would see inside so that's pretty much real to me. Try it if you can & if it works then fine & if it doesn't I really don't care because I'm not getting anything out of this. I just thought we were all here to share our experience but maybe I was wrong about this site. Anyways I'm sending you this as an email & I'm also posting it on the site so anyone who wants to benefit from this can see it for yourself.

Regards
Aman

Aman,
Thanks for sharing. I didn't like your assumptions that people don't care about spirituality, but I appreciate the openness and honesty of your recent post.

Regarding Aman's last two comments -- I will frst address his responses to Brian, and then address Aman's responses to me in a different comment posted separately.

Aman wrote to Brian:

"I've understood one thing by posting my very first message that here people are too frustrated even to listen to someone who is saying "hey guys listen I think it really works so please try it cause it worked & whatever you read in these books about inner vistas is actually real not imagination"."

-- To put it bluntly, it appears that you are not too smart Aman. No one here is "frustrated" except for you. That's very obvious. No one here is not "listening" either. You have posted your comments and they have been read. It appears that you think that others here are somehow not familiar with the RS dogma that you tout. You act as if you have come here to teach the RS path, beiefs and meditation to people who are ignorant of it. Thats downright stupid of you, someone who is not even an initiate yet. Don't you realize that a fair number of other people here in this forum are in fact long-time initiates who each have 25 or 30 years experience in RS and Sant mat meditation? We all have vastly more knowledge and experience in the RS path and meditation than you do. So its rather foolish and impudent of you to approach this forum as if you are here to enlighten us about RS meditation. In fact, you are making a fool of yourself and you are actually poorly reflecting the RS teachings.

"About my personal experience .... I came across this wonderful explanation about meditation technique in sant mat it's from the book journey to the luminous...This information is from the book Journey to the Luminous, by Arran Stephens."

-- That book is NOT your personal experience, so don't imply that it is. YOU were asked questions about YOURSELF and your ideas and experience with Sant mat, not about some other individual's book. You have not answered ANY of the questions that I myself asked you, or any that others have asked you. Instead, you have been evasive by posting material out of some book which has nothing to do with YOU or with RS.

"Just like everyone else here I use to try to meditate without any luck."

-- Since you have admitted you have not been initiated, then you have never actually practiced the RS meditation.

"I gave it another try & that's when I understood what I was doing wrong. The key to good concentration is when you close your eyes we need to........"

-- Again, you definitely do not need to explain the technique and details of Sant mat meditation to the initiated. You would be much smarter if you had an open mind and humility and were willing to learn from others who are much older, wiser, and considerably more experienced in Sant mat than you are.

"I finally saw these inner skies, stars, moon etc. they were right there & please don't tell me it was imagination cause it was as real as this physical world."

-- Just because you experienced some phenomena does not make that "real". You are obviously a neophyte and don't even understand what or how "real" is traditionally defined in eastern philosophy. Unfortunately, just because you say that you "saw" some lights or had some experiences does not prove anything to anyone.

"I know the difference between imagining things but this was something totally different..."

-- You simply do NOT know "the difference between imagining things".

"I could see this black sky filled with stars & my body felt so light like I was about to float off to somewhere."

-- So what. Many of us have already been there and done that many many times over, and even decades ago. It simply does not prove anything.

"I had read about these inner stars etc. in the books .... I crossed that light to see lights of different colors & then finally I crossed those lights & saw this amazing sky filled with stars etc. & so on."

-- Like I and others will all tell you, such phenomena does not prove anything. The mind is able to produce all of that and more - beyond your wildest dreams and imagination, and certainly beyond your limited experience so far... but none of it proves anything.

"I'm not here to preach or do any kind of propaganda for rssb."

-- But unfortunately that's exactly what you have been doing so far. Nevertheless, we all encourage you to stay and welcome you here. But please don't come here with a dogmatic or preaching attitude. Because that kind of thing is annoying.

"I'm a super skeptic myself but if it's real I had to admit it is real."

-- But those are not the words of a skeptic. As far as "real" goes, you must first understand and define what "real' means. This has already been done by the Rishis ages ago, as well as more recently by the scientific method. None of what you have said so far meets those criteria. The traditional definition of "real" is that which is NOT transitory. Since those experiences of yours were all transitory, they are by definition, not real. Nor is there any scientific proof of their reality. They were nothing more than mere perceptual phenomena.

"I told this same technique to others & they saw these lights & stars & the important thing was they never heard of sant mat & they didn't know anything about what they would see inside so that's pretty much real to me."

-- Again, just because someone else supposedly had a similar subjective experience proves nothing. And so what you merely assume is "real" is irrelevant.

"I'm not getting anything out of this."

-- I would say that you have not got anything so far. But if you stay here and really listen, instead of trying to preach dogma, you may learn a few things from others here who have already been and passed beyond where you are at now, and who may help you to gain wisdom and avoid certain pitfalls.

"I just thought we were all here to share our experience but maybe I was wrong about this site."

-- We are here to share, but that does not mean share the same old RS dogma. I don't think you really yet understand what is happening atr this site. I think you have made forgone conclusions out of ignorance. But I encourage you to continue, as well as to not take anything or beliefs for granted. And don't put much stock in inner lights and sights and sounds. None of that is genuine Realization.

"I'm also posting it on the site so anyone who wants to benefit from this can see it for yourself."

-- But are YOU willing to really listen and hear what others have to say, and have already said? If you are sincere, then it would help if you would actualy try to answer the questions that other commenters ask you. So far, you have not. You have merely preached your agenda of meditation. You would also benefit if you refrained from jumping to conclusions about others. So its more or less up to you Aman.


Aman,

How do you "look sweetly, lovingly" at darkness?

You said: "just sit in sweet remembrance of God..."

I have no memory of God or any idea what to think of. What do you suggest? Wouldn't this detract from the concentration and looking you speak of?

What are the five words charged with?

You said: "Then you may see the inner sun or moon."

What do they look like? How do you know if you are looking at the right inner sun or moon? Is there only one inner sun or moon?

How do you know the radiant form of the master is the radiant form of the master and not an imposter or the wrong master?

What do you think is the value of these visons? What have you realized or learned?

Thanks

Aman,

I forgot to ask:

I found the comment above by Tulsi Ortega to be an interesting perspective, although I'm not sure I completely understand. What is your reaction to what Tulsi wrote, if I may ask?

Thanks

To Aman,

Aman wrote:

"I was thinking that here people are actually interested in spirituality"

-- They ARE interested in spirituality, but that does not mean that they are interested in sant mat dogma that they are already quite familar with.

"somehow I thought that maybe because I could see the truth in these teachings & meditation"

-- And what makes you assume that you "see the truth"? As kif you see the "truth", and we don't? You need to be more open-minded and not so presumptuous.

"if I shared my view maybe some people would actually give meditation another honest try"

-- And what makes you think and assume that people here need to "give meditation another try"? As if 20 or 30 years is not aready enough? That pretty arrogant of you.

"but now it seems I'm wasting my time with people like you who don't want to even believe if someone else is telling them"

-- We don't just "believe" just because some un-initiated neophyte like yourself appears out of nowhere and "is telling" something. Thats pretty lame of you to assume that. I don't think you have a clue as to WHO you are talking to, much less WHAT you are even talking about. I am not trying to be rude to you, but you are in fact being rather rude and presumptuous towards the rest of us here.

"that yes I've tested this meditation without being an initiate & by just having faith in the master & giving it a try I could get results, inner experiences."

-- So what? You think "inner experiences" are somehow "results"? Where are these "result"? Fyi "results" (in sant mat terms) means noting short of liberation, god-realization, sach khand, enlightenment, etc. Not just some lights or sounds. That kind of thing happens all the time to alll sorts of people, and does not prove anything. Are you so new and immature to RS that you do not even understand what RS is supposedly all about? It's not just about perceiving a few unusual inner sights and sounds. But apparently thats what it is to beginners like you.

"Anyways you guys can waste your time in fighting & complaining about the path."

-- No one here is fighting or complaining, except for you and people like you. YOU are complaining, and YOU are fighting. Just step back for a minute and take a look at yourself. This site is not an RSSB satsang site. This is a blog comment forum. We don't have to swallow your RS dogma here. And you have no right to expect us to. And we have a right to disagree with you and whatever you post if we don't think its valid. And did you know that in fact the RSSB has specifically published instructions and admonitions to all of its satsangi followers teling them to refrain from any and all posting and/or discussions about RS and Sant mat on the internet? So whenever you do finally get initiated, that will apply to you as well. So you better do you discussing and debating now before the RSSB clamps down on your free speech.

"I don't think my intensions were appreciated in the right sense."

-- Your intentions were clearly to preach about meditation to people who have aready been meditating for more than 30 years. But you can change that approach at any time. It's up to you.

"I don't give a dam whether you evolve spiritually or no, neither do I care if you follow rssb or no."

-- But you do not and could not possibly know what anyone else's spiritual evolvement is, so that is meaningless. As far as you not caring, thats even more irrelevant.

"I was only sharing my experience with you guys so that maybe you can also give meditation another chance"

-- As I said in my other posted comment, what gives you the idea that people who have mediated for more than 3o years need to "give meditation another chance"? Thats downright absurd and ignorant. What makes you think that an un-initiated guy like you knows better than us who are initiated and have vastly more meditation experince than you? And where do you get this idea that we have gained nothing? You obviously came here with a lot of preconceived but erroneous ideas and judgements.

"but now it seems you guys a not interested in spirituality"

-- Another indication of your mistaken conclusions. Who said (besides you) that we are not interested in spirituality? You don;t know what you are talking about, and you are showing what an arrogant fool you are. I think you need to start over again and appraoch this forum with a bit more humility.

"instead you are just interested in giving excuses about why you failed on the path"

-- No one has given any such "excuses", and no one has ever said that they "failed on the path". So it appears that you have made some rather crucial mistaken assumptions, misinterpretations, and misunderstandings.

"& just bitch about rssb for your failures"

-- No one has indicated any such "failures".

"I only wanted to convey that if without being initiated I could get inner experiences then those ex satsangis should not loose hope & work hard towards meditation."

-- Why that's kind of you, but I hardly think anyone of us here needs any such "hope" or any more "inner experiences" or any more meditation.

"I made the mistake of thinking that you guys are spiritual seekers"

-- Yes, that was a mistake. But not the way you think. Not all of of us are "seekers". Some may still be seekers, and some are no longer seekers. But then that also depends on what one means by "seeker". But I would venture to say that we are not "spiritual seekers" like you are.

"& now I understood why you guys are so frustrated & why you can't make any progress"

-- This reveals even more the crux of YOUR problem. You keep on assuming that we are "frustrated", and that we have made no "progress". But you have no idea what you are talking about. Many people here are progressed far beyond you. They are not carring the load of dogma and immaturity that you are. And they have much greater and broader experience and knowedge than you do. So for YOU to say that they "can't make any progress" is completely false and utterly untrue.

So this basically leads me to conclude that you are just another typically lame RS sycophant who is both frustrated and presumptious about initiates like us who have dropped the RS guru-cult and its theology and its dogma.

In any case, like I said, if you are smart, you will open your mind and take advantage of the combined wisdom, knowledge, and considerable experience (whatever that may be) of others who have already gone before you. If you aren't smart, then you will just continue to remain with your head stuck in a pile of mystic dogma, and deaf and blind to the real truth all around you. It's always YOUR choice.


Dear Brian,

You have indicated that you meditate every morning. Why? Why are you not among those "[t]here" who don't need "any more meditation"?

Robert Paul Howard

Dear komposer

Thanks for understanding my point. As I said before I didn't write these things to talk about rssb frankly speaking I'm tired of so many satsangis I mean the huge number & I know most of them 90% are there just to follow something without understanding & not willing to put hard work in meditation. Only few people practice meditation with full vigor.

Dear Tao

I really don't want to waste my time with people like you so God bless you!! & have a nice journey to the absolute :-)

Dear Benito

What I've understood is "look sweetly" is basically we need to LOOK, stare or gaze in this darkness I remember in my failed attempts in meditation I never paid to much attention to this darkness I would just try to feel the centre of my forehead & do simran of any holy word I liked but after reading this I started looking in the darkness like watching that dark screen & doing simran of anything doesn't matter & then I started seeing those lights etc. You don't have to think about God just forget about God's form because we don't know how he looks like & maybe for some people they don't even believe he exists. Just look in the darkness & do simran or repeatation of anything you like to calm the mind. I don't know what those words are charged with cause I'm not initiated yet but maybe they do contain some subtle energy of the master which may help you to connect with his consciousness since we are all connected or maybe they may help in calming the mind sooner then the usual way. Those moons & suns looked like lights to me but they were different & had more radiance I think they are called sun or moon because they have some similarity with them like moon light looked like white radiant light but not the ones which I saw earlier it had the starry sky in the background also. I didn't see any radiant form because maybe I'm not initaited yet or maybe I'm not advanced enough. What I learned from these experiences was first thing I noticed was I was something different than my body, it was like I was in some other place but my body was not there only I existed nothing else, so I guess I did learn that I do exist without this body which for me is a good thing I dont know about others. Secondly these inner vistas made me realize that there is something beyond this physical world which we can see & saints who spent their lives talking about this were telling the truth & now it gave me more courage that yes maybe this whole mombo jumbo of sant mat which many think is stupid is actually more real than we think so it gave me more courage to see more deeply into these teachings & where they lead. I agree with tulsi but one thing I would like to say is that reading about this stuff is something totally different & when you read you form your own imaginative ideas about how this vision would look or how this would feel but from my experience I can say that when it does happen & when you see it yourself the experience is totally different & there's no way you can imagine this stuff which you see in these experience. You may imagine in various ways but when it happens it completely exceeds your wildest imaginatoin.

Dear Sir Brian

I would also like to hear your answer which Robert Paul Howard asked you.

All those who think I'm here to preach or talk about rssb please get this straight

PLEASE DON'T JOIN RSSB!! There are enough people in this organisation & most of them don't meditate & then complain they don't see anything or nothing happened so please if you think I'm here on rssb's behalf then please get your heads checked. I would love if there were no followers behind the master & I'll have enough time & opportunity to talk to him or learn from him alone that would be GREAT!! just like the old mystics & their students I guess hahahaha!! :-)

Anyways those who want to try the technique please do if something happens & changes your life & makes you a believer then well & good if not I really don't care so PEACE TO ALL!!!

For Aman only,
Please do not vomit out the hard earned experiences that you have achieved by chewing bitter pills of meditation.It is not going to help you or us by any means.
Lest you should repent later...........

with love,

Rakesh Bhasin and Aman,

Be happy in your illusions. I prefer to be disillusioned.

Dear Rakesh Bhasin

Yes sir I've seen the truth in the master’s words that we should not open the bag of diamonds where no one has even the slightest idea of what a diamond is. I'm not going to waste more time on this & I'm happy I'm at least open to higher experiences, all we need is a little faith & determination to give our best in meditation & not take bhakti or devotion to the lord as some scientific experiment. I guess it's this scientific attitude which is the hindrance in ones spiritual progress. I guess when time comes every soul will see the reality & make the journey back to it's source. Thanks for the advice & take care sir.

PEACE TO ALL!!!
Regards
Aman

To Tao and Aman (if he comes back) or anyone,

Tao, you're getting too good at this "shredding" business. A neophyte like Aman wouldn't/couldn't attempt to address the issues you raised, so he just "copped out", tucked his tail under and ran like a coward from a tough opponent. Your challenges were fair, and I think he was discourteous not to have given you the respect of some response to your well-written comments.

Also, I don't think he had the capacity to grasp or consider what "Tulsi Ortega" wrote above, so he ignored that altogether. He didn't know what to make of it.

Finally, I am unimpressed with his descriptions of "inner" experiences of suns, moons and stars. It is easy to read about something, then parrot it and claim it for your own which I suspect he has done.
I have had dreams that were more spectacular and informing than what he described. I think we all have at one time or another.

This is the problem when someone discovers Sant Mat teachings without the advantage of exposure to a variety of philosophical approaches to "Absolute". There is no perspective to make an informed decision and it is easy to get duped.

Dear tucson

Keep telling yourself that :-)

To all EVOLVED SOULS of CHURCH of the CHURCHLESS :-)

I'm sorry guys!! I should have considered that after 20 30 40 years of trying your best you guys couldn't achieve anything on the path & that's the reason why you are so frustrated with sant mat & rssb. What does a person like me know about meditation & spirituality. Please continue your efforts to tell the truth about RSSB & dogma of sant mat. May all new comers like me benefit from your failures. I deeply apologize if anyone got hurt I only wanted to share information nothing else. Mr. Tao I agree I should learn to be humble & not charge in & condemn you all for not succeeding on the path. I think I've learnt from this excellent forum & expert meditators how to fail & waste so many years in such stupid pursuits. Thanks for saving my time or else even I would have been here just like you guys & bitch about rssb & sant mat in 30 to 40 years time.
Thanks for failing & setting an example for us to learn from.

GOD BLESS YOU ALL!! :-)

Robert, I enjoy meditating. That's why I meditate. I don't know what else to say.

It's the same reason I do lots of things. Because they're enjoyable to do.

I no longer meditate out of a sense of duty. Who am I supposed to be dutiful to?

I like to explore and experiment with my consciousness. We all do this every waking moment, of course, but settling down and simplifying what's going through my mind every morning is pleasurable to me.

For me, it's nice to start off the day with some quiet meditation time. Others don't need that, but I miss meditation when I'm not able to do it -- which is rare.

To Aman as well as other readers,

Regarding Aman and his folly:

Aman, As I suspected and anticipated, in your knee-jerk defensiveness and your repeated failure to understand what I clearly presented to you, you have completely missed the point Aman.

You again evaded and refused to answer even on question that I asked you. That shows that you are nothing but a pathetic fraud and you are not here to discuss the issues.

This is not a board for you to proselitize RS dogma. Sant mat is one of the many issues that Brian often raises here, and all aspects of it are discussed. Your evasion and refusal to participate in any reasonable discussion and/or debate reveals your underlying intent here.

Furthermore, you have repeatedly made false and erroneous assertions that the rest of here are supposedly "frustrated" and have "failed" and have had no success from our decades of meditation and spiritual sadhana. Both of those assertions are totally false and without substance.

No one here is "frustrated" except for you and that's more than obvious in all your comments; and no one else here that has pursued spiritual sadhana and meditation for many years has been either unsuccessful or has not had any significant "progress", insight, or realization. Yet even after that has been made clear to you, you have repeatedly continued to fdalsely assert otherwise. What is your problem dude?

But I do know what your problem is. You are a neophyte poseur who desires to one-up other satsangis who no longer subscribe to the RS guru-cult or its theology and dogma. But that does NOT mean that ex-satsangis have had no "progress" or "success" in spiritual sadhana and meditation as you so ignorantly and erroneously assert.

Almost everything you say about others here is either unfounded, blatantly false, or just foolish nonsense and retaliatory rhetoric. You can run away from here like a coward if you must, but you have only proven what many of us already know about RS guru-cult sycophants and poseurs like yourself.

I really tried to be sincere in my questions to you, and also to go out of my way to welcome you to really participate in genuine and intelligent debate here, but unfortunately for you, you have chosen to remain pathetically narcissistic, self-possessed and contracted, and outright defensive.

Therefore, you are obviously not truly interested in really understanding spirituality or sant mat mysticism. You think you know it all. But you are nothing more than a shallow and phony parrot of borrowed dogma, just like the many other Radha Soami (initiated) satsangis that you have so foolishly criticised and have tried to differentiate yourself from.

But you don't have to remain that way. You can still join with us if you would simply put aside your false assumptions and your immature egoic posturing and your borrowed dogma, and just listen to what others (who are far more spiritually experienced, insightful, and enlightened than you are) have to relate and share about Santmat as well as spirituality over-all. You don't have to give up your meditation, and no one expects you to. Just don't come here trying to tell others what is real and foist sant mat dogma on them.

But I suspect, since you have failed to be open-minded after being presented with repeated opportunities, that you will just continue being immature and take your little toys and go run away and hide and pout, and tell yourself that we are just a bunch of spiritual losers. But that will be entirely your loss and your folly, not ours. You are not impressing anyone here by acting the way you have. So why don't you cut the crap and stop trying to teach others about sant mat, and just join the party.

It's still up to you.

Oh btw, one more thing... You stated the following:

"I would love if there were no followers behind the master & I'll have enough time & opportunity to talk to him or learn from him alone"

-- You are dreaming Bro. Its high time for you to realize that RS is a huge guru-cult where you are, and will remain, an insignificant nobody. I would encourage you to become self-empowered and to realize the divinity within yourself. Go the path of the true Sages. You don't need to grovel at the feet of bogus gurus and fraudulent cult leaders like G.S.D. and religious myths like Radha Soami. Liberate yourself and discover your own true nature.

Tat Tvam Asi


A PS (Post-Script) for Aman:

Aman,
Fyi, no one here is impressed or fooled one tiny bit by your rather stupid childish Smiley Faces or your phony "God Bless". And that is especially because they don't make up for your obvious cronic avoidance and refusal to answer even a few simple questions or the honest remarks of other commenters.

There is a wise old saying, which in this case applies very much to you:

"If you can't take the Heat, then stay out of the Kitchen."


Well, this is a lively thread, I couldn't help but also join in! No doubt due in large part to the participation of a fresh ID, full of the gloriously ill-thought, implicitly arrogant and cosily familiar concepts which are OH so easy to dismiss. A nice gentle workout for the mind! I guess that's what prompted so many other responses too? :o)

Dear Aman, where are you from, out of interest? I am known round these (www) parts as arrogant & aggressive, amongst other less than complimentary things, so I apologise in advance if my questions or points are too blunt, I really mean no harm :)

My problem with your point of view is really based on how limited & disconnected it is from other points of view, other information, other realities etc. You need to think out the *full* implications of every avenue of thought you are promoting, and how each avenue leads to another model of thought, another paradigm, another question, another answer and so on. Keep questioning until you find a truth which is inpenetrable. (imo, this 'truth' is no-self, but that is another matter, it's the process which cannot be questioned). But this is all an aside!

Aman, you appear to have made innumerable unquestioned assumptions. These are the *hidden* basis of your RS mindset. The cloud upon which you have built this castle of certainty in your BELIEFS.

Major unquestioned assumption here is that RS meditation *'works'*. You need to fully understand & unpack what the word WORKS actually means. When you say 'work', do you mean in the sense a) it makes you feel good, b) you see, hear or feel some weird/beautiful/ecstatic stuff, like stars, moons, radiant forms, inner regions, palaces, gardens, inner sounds etc etc, c) that the entire RS theology, from souls & karma, reincarnation, initiation & 4 lives, the 1 'true' path, false & true gurus, sach khand etc are all *literally* true and objective truths, and that meditation 'working' somehow proves or verifies this?

I would suggest your mental definition of the word 'works' is a little vague and unquestioned by even yourself? You've mixed up the word 'works' in the sense you sit and YOU saw things, with the entire RS theology being true, therefore being applicable in a universal sense. You don't even consider the possibility that inner experience is much, much more easily available to some people than others, and that being initiated by this or that guru, this or that type of meditation is totally irrelevant, as it may depend on the individual's neuro-biological makeup. An initiated satsangi may meditate for 60 years with no experience, and an uninitiated & unaware person may grow weary of the spontaneous 'inner experiences' which handicap them their entire life. So what is 'working' exactly?

You also don't consider the possibility that these inner experiences don't actually prove anything about the RS paradigm and cosmology, as these inner experiences may just be a misunderstood and misinterpreted function of our neuro-biological makeup. In fact, it is infinitely more likely this is the literal case, than the RS theology being literally true. No doubt. That you, uninitiated, have had 'inner experiences', whilst there are several here who haven't despite decades with the practice, is really saying something quite ponderous isn't it? Does the guru/organisation really OWN and DISH OUT these experiences, or are we falsely projecting our own innate abilities? If you think about it, you're more or less advising people to NEVER get initiated :oD I tease, of course. The implications, if fully thought out, are actually too profound to communicate. The RS model is far too limited & limiting.

Also, when you say it 'works', do you mean it literally 'works' for EVERYONE who tries it, or for 75%, or for 10%, or for 0.0001%? How do you know? Why DOESN'T it work for some people? Do you really know?

This is the point. *If* the meditation experiences somehow proved the RS theology was 'true', then you'd have an excellent point. But it doesn't, and you don't.

Let's take the venerable Mr Hines as an example, if I may. He has meditated for 30-40 years diligently, with no overt 'results' according to the RS cosmology/model at least. If YOUR meditation experience 'working' somehow proved the validity & truth of the RS theology, you can say Brian is merely going through bad karma, unknown to him at a remarkably graceful and mercifuly rapid rate, thanks to the guru of course!

However, if meditation experience, even if experienced as advertised, DOESN'T in any way prove or verify the theology of RS, and that the ability to have certain kinds of 'inner experience' is based on natural ability and tendencies, and that other forms of meditation available could be potentially more 'fruitful' & ENJOYABLE, and not somehow merely of 'kal' and his nefarious henchemen, then perhaps Brian could have made that choice freely without the fear of travelling around the wheel of 8,400,00 lives? Or perhaps even made the choice to never meditate again? For if there is no literal Sach Khand, other than as a temporal state of altered consciousness which is biologically based & badly interpreted, why bother spending decades doing something you're not a *natural* at?

Ahhh, too long this post! And, of course, you won't heed a word. As is only right of course! :-)

Ta ta.

PS, on your point about not viewing the RS 'path' as a scientific venture, but rather a bhakti one.

I agree to quite some extent, from some viewpoints.

However, you may wish to communicate this u-u-turn to Gurinder, who very regularly and very forcefully instructs us that we should, in fact, not even bother too much with the bhakti side and FOCUS on the meditation.

Meditation, meditation, meditation. All things, and he means ALL things, will come from meditation and meditation alone.

Like a formula. Like a science.

Right?

Well, it's wrong.

:o)

Ok Mr. Tao since you seem to know it all go ahead I'm listening with an open mind please tell me what is the right path, what path you follow, what have you achieved on your path??

Aman,
tAo never said that he knows everything, but after reading all the comments, it seems like you have been telling that you know everything:)

I guess, all tAo is trying to tell you is that stop making assumptions about anybody. I would say please try to read the few posts and comments in this blog and see what the discussion is about.

Read the old posts and you will find a pattern there. Every once in a while, in the middle of a discussion about RSSB, an over enthusiastic arrogant new satsangi comes and assumes that everybody else is doomed and start passing his/her conditioned thoughts to others. Other pattern is that the defending satsangi will never answer any questions even directly asked to him but just like to preach. I am not saying that you should not write about whatever you think or have experienced in an open discussion forum but just don't assume about others. Ask questions if you want to know or read.

So do you believe in RSSB philosophy that once you are chosen, you are taken care of anyway and only initiated ones are the chosen ones? What does initiation mean to you? Does initiation mean Guru marking the chosen souls? Then you are contradicting your own path cause as per the RSSB dogmas, you are not being 'chosen' yet and an 'unchosen' one is trying to teach 'chosen' disciples of his own guru:) (btw this is supposed to be a joke:) Now don't get offended by it.)

Dear Sapient

Please I don't get offended by anyone cause I really don't care about words that much. It's obvious my experience cannot help others & just becasue others don't see truth in these teachings it's their problem not mine. I believe that every soul has it's own way to find it's path so I don't need others to tell me that I am deluded & neither do I expect to change anyone's views about RSSB or sant mat.

I don't believe in this theory that just because you are initiated you are taken care of I think initiation into any path is only a way to tell yourself that now it's time to work hard towards your evolution, it's like a personal promise to oneself not to the master or any organisation.

Initiation to me is making a commitment to myself under the guidance of the one who has evolved & achieved enlightenment & then working hard to keep that promise by doing meditation in case of sant mat.

This guru marking the choosen soul thing I don't believe, I think that universal consciousness or God guides us to a particular path, the marking if you call it that has already been done according to our actions or karmas so no need to mark a soul again & then keeping the master as our ideal we work hard towards achieving the highest state of consciousness.

There is no question of being chosen or not chosen if your karmas are pointing your consciousness towards spiritual growth you are choosen. There's no marking machine in heaven which says oh that soul is choosen or not it's only a way of explaining.

By the way I never said I know everything I only shared my views.

Obviously Aman has not read the entire RSSB literature. He has an idea of what RSSB is.

Dear Manjit (whoever you are),

I find what you have observed/suggested in your above notes to be most worth while - even, in principle, for those who do not follow this RSSB guru-cult that so many here have been associated with.

Robert Paul Howard

Dear Brian,

Your "duty" is, of course, to yourself (even if you might not truly have a "self" [!]). And I find nothing wrong with enjoyment - particularly if it is just "enjoyed" and not "needed." Such a basic attraction seems to fall in quite well with a Spinozan analysis of each person's pursuit of pleasure and avoidance of pain. I am glad, however, that you don't appear to be a sadist in your pursuit(s) of pleasure, like some others seem to prefer.

On the other hand, however, this does seem to put meditation (and its pursuit/practice) on about the same level as a five-dollar latte, masturbation, pork-barbeque, organic food, or owning/driving a particular type of car. It might become just another "pleasure" (to - maybe/possibly - become attached to).

Robert Paul Howard

Aman wrote: "Ok Mr. Tao since you seem to know it all go ahead I'm listening with an open mind please tell me what is the right path, what path you follow, what have you achieved on your path??"

-- Aman, it appears that you have difficulty in understanding my commments, and a result, you have continued to misinterpret. You also still have not answered even one of my simple questions that I had asked you, but now you ask me questions. That is pretty lame. This is the tendency of ignoring and evading that you continue to manifest, and that I have mentioned previously. If you wish for others to take you seriously, then you need to respond likewise.

Fyi, I never claimed to "know it all". I simply said that you (an individual who has admitted to not yet being initiated, and who has clearly shown a general lack of any real understanding of the fundamental tenets of the Santmat and Radha Soami teachings, and who has espoused ideas and opinions and sopeculations that generally do not conform to Radha Soami doctrine) has come to this forum with an assumption that other long-time initiates have somehow failed and have not progressed spiritually, and with an attitude that you are proficient in meditation and thus are here to teach these long-time initiates how to meditate and that you are somehow more spiritually advanced than they are. Those were more or less your claims and your admonitions to others in this forum. You say that you were simply trying to share, but that, like both myself and others have told you, is not how you have presented yourself thus far. You have given your ideas and opinions as if you know better and are more experienced than others. And until you begin to answer the simple questions that were asked of you, no one here is going to regard you as having any real credibility, but rather only as a poseur.

You asked: "please tell me what is the right path, what path you follow, what have you achieved on your path??"

-- There is no one or only "right path". Each must find his own unique path.

-- I no longer follow any path. I simply engage and abide in 'instant presence', the self-perfected state of primordial awareness.

-- There is nothing "to achieve". A path presupposes an destination. But life is a journey, not a goal or destination. The journey is the thing. There is nothing to achieve and nowhere to arrive at. This... Is It.

---------------------------

Aman also wrote to Sapient:

"It's obvious my experience cannot help others"

-- And how could it, and why should it?

"just becasue others don't see truth in these teachings it's their problem not mine."

-- How do you know what others see or don't see? How do you know what is the truth for others? How do you know that others "don't see truth"? How do you know what others have or have notn gained from "these teachings"? Your so-called "truth" is only an idea that you have, or an idea that you have acquired from somehere else. Ideas and experiences are not "truth". Truth is not something which you can possess or define.

"I believe that every soul has it's own way to find it's path so I don't need others to tell me that I am deluded..."

-- No one said that you are deluded. Just don't try to tell others that they have no "progress" or that they have failed. Because you don't know anything about others.


"...neither do I expect to change anyone's views about RSSB or sant mat."

-- You tried to tell others (especially other initiates) what Sant mat meditation is all about. But some of your ideas and opinions do not actually adhere to Sant mat doctrine.

"I don't believe in this theory that just because you are initiated you are taken care of"

-- But that is not what Sant mat doctrine says.

"I think initiation into any path is only a way to tell yourself that now it's time to work hard towards your evolution, it's like a personal promise to oneself not to the master or any organisation."

-- That's fine if you wish to view it that way. I have no disagreeement with that part of your statement. However, your general exclusion of the "master" in this equation does not really adhere to the RS teachings.

"Initiation to me is making a commitment to myself under the guidance of the one who has evolved & achieved enlightenment..."

-- You commitment is also fine, but how do you know for certain that "the one who has evolved" (ie: the supposed sant mat "sant" or "master") is actually genuinely "evolved"? And how do you know for certain that this so-called master or sant has "achieved enlightenment"? How would you know that? You simp'y do not know that for certain. You only beleive that. What makes you assume that the RS "master" is actually really "enlightened"? Where is the proof of that?


"...then working hard to keep that promise by doing meditation in case of sant mat."

-- If you truly wish to engae in the path of sant mat meditation, then you should and must needs gain formal initiation. Until you do so, you are notactually following and adhering fully to the sant mat teachings. At this point, you are merely engaging in your own mental speculation.

"This guru marking the choosen soul thing I don't believe,"

-- Then again, you are clearly NOT in agreement with sant mat and RS teachings. RS teachings specifically indicates that the satsangi initiates are "marked".

"I think that universal consciousness or God guides us to a particular path, the marking if you call it that has already been done according to our actions or karmas so no need to mark a soul again" ... "There is no question of being chosen or not chosen"

-- unfortunately for you, that is NOT what Santmat/RS teaches.

If you really wish to follow and practice Sant Mat and the Radha Soami teachings, then you are advised to apply for initiation. Otherwise you are making up your own path. You can do that if you wish, but don't claim to be following the RS path and guru. But before seeking initiation you really need to become much better acqainted with the RS doctrine.

I would also strongly advise you to go study other paths and traditions such as the sanatana dharma, advaita vedanta, and buddhism before becoming fixated soley upon RS.


Correction:

Aman wrote: "I don't believe in this theory that just because you are initiated you are taken care of"

-- You may not "believe" it, but that IS what Sant mat doctrine says. Sant mat and RS says that the master IS responsible for your spiritual care, and IS bound to take you to "sach khand".


In addition to vedanta and buddhism, I would also advise Aman to study the Zen (Ch'an) Teachings of Huang Po, the Taoism of Lao Tzu, and the Dzgochen of Garab Dorje... and especially to first read "The Wisdom of Insecurity" by Alan Watts.


Aman wrote:

"I don't believe in this theory that just because you are initiated you are taken care of"

--Then you don't believe in the Sant Mat teachings. Initiation by a perfect Sat Guru is paramount in Sant Mat. It is the foundational doctrine. If you admit that this is a theory, is the rest not a theory?

"..the one who has evolved & achieved enlightenment.."

--How do you determine if the master has evolved and acheived enlightenment? I think this is the most important thing for any prospective devotee to consider... What if he HASN'T?

Maybe you can reach an even higher state of consciousness one day and help the master get there ! ;o)

Mr.tao I never said I know everything about everything or that I'm here to preach or teach old satsangis how to meditate you blaim me of misunderstanding your comments well you do the same in my case my intentions were not to teach but to share but don't know why you think I'm here to teach.

I'm not assuming anything but the way this whole blog is about how rssb or sant mat is a false path is pretty clear topics & material is a clear indication what this blog is all about.

you say "I no longer follow any path. I simply engage and abide in 'instant presence', the self-perfected state of primordial awareness."

these are nothing but fancy words for me, which path you followed earlier & what soul realization have you attained can you seperate your soul from your body? have you done astral travelling etc? if not then your instant presence is nothing but a foolish state of awareness where you are just fooling your self because you couldn't attain anything & you have no realization of the soul yet let alone god realization.

you wrote
"It's obvious my experience cannot help others"

-- And how could it, and why should it?

thats what im saying how could it & why should it help others

from what I've read so far these stories are about how they left rssb or sant mat because nothing happened or lame excuses regarding rssb administration methods which is a failure story for me. If they had attained something they would be here complaining about the path.

Who made you the authority over Sant mat doctrine just because you understand it in a different way doesn't mean I should also follow your understanding about it. Everyone follows the path in ones own way & no one is suppose to judge that the other's way is wrong.

For me my intuition is the factor which decides which master is enlightened or not & plus if his radiant form seems real enough to me in my inner experience then thats enough prove about his attainment.

Just because you or someone else got initiation doesn't mean he is following the path any better than me. Love for God does not require a stamp from anyone & there are many un initiated people who follow sant mat path much better than the initiated ones so don't give me this reason that just becuase I'm not initiated I cannot follow the path.

whether i'm merely engaging in my mental speculation you are no one to decide how do you know this? just because you see something from a different perspective doesn't mean my view is my mental speculation & you have the right speculation.

when sant mat says that initiated souls are marked I agree that these souls are marked but it you say that the guru marks them by his own will than that is wrong, the souls which are marked are brought to the path. You are no one to decide what sant mat teaches infact sant mat clearly states that marking is done by the lord maybe you need to check your sant mat understanding.

I didn't mean that initiation means taken care in case of reaching sach khand, I meant being initiated doesn't mean you don't have to do anything the master is responsible for your evolution but you have to walk on the path sach khand will not come to you.

If you really have some attainment of higher consciousness, out of body experience, soul travel etc. then discuss this stuff just by saying that There is nothing to achieve and nowhere to arrive at. This... Is It. Doesn't mean anything it only shows that you don't couldn't achieve anything & now just because you couldn't you are satisfied with NOW!! Please don't waste your time & mine. You sound like an enlightened person but your words don't have the power to back it up I think it's better you stay in this 'instant presence' zone.


Aman says you have to walk the path. Sach Khand won't come to you. Is the path tarred or in tarmac?

I think for now it's tarmac but don't worry soon the sach khand administration staff is trying to upgrade it because as you can see many people cry like babies when they walk on the path so administration staff is aware of the problem soon they'lll provide help :-)

I don't know whether anybody is crying like a baby. But Aman is surely in fairy tale fantasies. Santa Claus is for kids. Grow up, Aman.

No Deepak I love santa claus so I'll remain in this fantasy. You seem grown up but seriously what's the fun in that? Isn't spirituality about going back to innocence. I'll remain a kid you enjoy your adulthood seem to boring to me.

Hey Aman! Dude, check this out:

I have found that following a spiritual path has no particular relevance to 'understanding' which can occur at any time under any circumstance. It's a thin veil, a trick of perception that is a result of our habits and conditioning that keeps us from seeing how things are.

A spiritual path is based on the presumption of an individual that needs to go through a variety of disciplines and correct behaviors in order to purify and get rid of the 'I' or ego, and then achieve reunion with God.

The fundamental point that is missed is that the seeker, at every stage of this quest, is already what he/she is seeking. There is no way to make the seeker any more what they already are. It is a matter of looking in the right direction, which is no direction at all, to see this: that you are just a phantom, a dreamed character in a play you are playing a role in. There is no individual. No separate soul. No ego to overcome.

There are no particular qualifications for perceiving this because Absolute is perfectly present in all circumstances and has no need for special diets, disciplines or gurus.
Absolute is always present NOW whether one is loading the dishwasher or experiencing a grand vison of the universe in some exotic inner region.

When this is seen, the game of the spiritual quest appears silly, like a dog chasing it's tail. There is nothing wrong with playing that game. It is your role in the play. Carry on, have fun, but none of it leads to what you are which you already are whether you know it or not. Your glasses are on your nose, silly!

What you already are is the unborn, and thus undying Presence that is prior to all phenomena and thought..Alakh, Agam, Anami. It can't be conceived or circumscribed in any way because in doing so it would be making an object out of itself. This is how the One becomes two, duality begins, the universe manifests and the illusion of individuality takes place.

Clue: Can an eye see itself?

The One is playing a game of hide and seek with itself. All paths lead to nowhere because there is nowhere to go. Just be as you are, really are, right now, which is just fine as it is.

????

Any thoughts?


Tulsi,
What you write is beautiful, compelling, and believeable.

The only issue I have with it is the last part, when you write:

"Just be as you are, really are, right now, which is just fine as it is."

When you write, "be, as you really are" there seems to be an implication that somehow I could be as I am really not, or as I a little am, or a lot am. Could you unpack that? I guess what I am saying is that while your description of the play is eloquent, the fact is that just by knowing, or believing we are in the play doesn't change the fact that we are deeply identified with the play. Perhaps some "path" or "process" is necessary to disidentify with it, even if, as you say, there is really no where to go.

Imagine going to disneyworld, and finding that the character playing mickey mouse has been trapped inside of his outfit for twenty years and now thinks he is mickey. Let us now say that you convince him that he is not in fact mickey mouse, but joe smith. Even if joe accepts your argument, as soon as he starts to take action in the world again, if he has not discarded his suit, he does so once again as mickey. The overwhelming response from the world is that he is in fact mickey, confirming his old belief that you just worked so hard to destroy.

How do you integrate your view of the world into more sustained, lived experience?


Dear Tulsi

Komposer I love your point!! It's exactly what I was trying to tell tulsi. Somehow someone thought I didn't understand tulsi but anyways this is what I'm saying tulsi that yes there's no where to go or reach in the end the final realization is of the self which is present now agreed but just the knowledge of the self is not enough there has to be a process which will unfold the real self & that realization will not be a mere thought or belief system which you've come to understand but instead it will be a result & conclusion to your experiment with your self & your soul. Just like Komposer said the guy in the mickey mouse has to come out & know that he is joe smith but still further if I go to him & say the joe smith is the name of this body but you are a soul. How will he comprehend this information unless he experiences it?? I told the same thing to tao also that just by saying i'm in the instant presense zone doesn't mean anything you need to experience it by changing the state in which you are in right now. Vedas & saints have given many warnings to such people who follow the way of gyan or knowledge just because their assumptions are based on intellect not first hand experience. The whole point of the journey from finite consciousness to infinite consciousness is to bring into experience this belief that I AM WHAT I AM!! but it has to be experienced to fully comprehend that, mere beliefs & words cannot do that at all. That's why the journey is so important when we change our consciousness level to higher ones we realize different aspects of our being this gives rise to the ultimate reality but if we don't go through change like the mickey mouse guy won't come out of the suit he will never fully understand the true nature of what he is.

Aman,

It has now come to the point and is clear to me that you obviously don't comprehend the issues. And that is irrespective of my comments. Why do I say that YOU think that you are here to teach others about sant mat? Simply because your comments are indicative of that.

You say "this whole blog is about how rssb or sant mat is a false path is pretty clear"... Have you read the entire Churchless archives? Obviously you have not. As a mnatter of fact, you have basically confined yourself to one thread and subject matter, and it is YOU who are so totally fixated upon rssb and sant mat. Actually, Brian has written numerous articles about many many different subjects other than rssb. But since you are just another typical RS internet troll, other areas of spirituality are beyond your realm.

I had previously said: "I no longer follow any path. I simply engage and abide in 'instant presence', the self-perfected state of primordial awareness."

Aman then responded: "these are nothing but fancy words for me, which path you followed earlier & what soul realization have you attained can you seperate your soul from your body?"

-- They are only "fancy words" to you. They are actully very simple and direct words, and in fact far simpler words and meaning than the ponderous heap of dualistic sant mat garbage and RS dogma and astral nonsense that you parrot here.

Aman said: "have you done astral travelling etc? if not then your instant presence is nothing but a foolish state of awareness where you are just fooling your self because you couldn't attain anything & you have no realization of the soul yet let alone god realization."

-- You know absolutely nothing about me, about my state, realization, or about 'instant presence'. Your comment only reveals what a complete and utterly ignorant fool you really are. And your so-called "astral travelling" is merely a manifestation of that ignorance and foolishness. Moreover, it's now perfectly obvious to me that you are an RSSB internet troll who has come here to harass ex-satsangis and anyone who takes a critical view towards sant mat and the RS guru-cult's dualistic religious theology and dogma.

Then AMAN said: "It's obvious my experience cannot help others"

Then I said: And how could it, and why should it?

And then AMAN replied: "thats what im saying how could it & why should it help others"

-- Therefore, you are only agreeing with me. So why are you trying to "help others" with regard to sant mat meditation? And don't try to tell us again that you aren't trying to "help"... because the record shows that you were doing just that.

Aman said: "what I've read so far these stories are about how they left rssb or sant mat because nothing happened ... If they had attained something they would be here complaining about the path."

-- You are the only one who is complaining. You are complaining about ex-satsangis. People have left RS for various differnet reasons. But what do you think should happen? And what is there to attain? These are nothing more than ideas and preumptions that you cling to. Whose to say "nothing happened"? Your comment does not make any sense.

Aman said: "Who made you the authority over Sant mat doctrine just because you understand it in a different way doesn't mean I should also follow your understanding about it."

-- I am not the authority, the books and the previous masters and their satsang lectures, letters, and literature are the source of the doctrine. So if you have a problem with it, then go to RSSB, not me. It's not about what I say, its all about what RSS says.

Aman said: "Everyone follows the path in ones own way & no one is suppose to judge that the other's way is wrong."

-- I am not judging your way, I already said that you are free to do as you please. I am only judging the sant mat doctrine and the RS gurus. But the real question is why are YOU judging my spirituality as you have done here:

Aman said: "have you done astral travelling etc? if not then your instant presence is nothing but a foolish state of awareness where you are just fooling your self because you couldn't attain anything & you have no realization of the soul yet let alone god realization."

-- Which, by the way, you obviously know absolutely nothing about.

Aman said: "For me my intuition is the factor which decides which master is enlightened or not & plus if his radiant form seems real enough to me in my inner experience then thats enough prove about his attainment."

-- That may be sufficient for you, but unfortunately that kind of "intuition" does not prove or validate anything. You are just a believer, and thats your choice. But you have no actual proof. So don't say that you do.

Aman said: "Just because you or someone else got initiation doesn't mean he is following the path any better than me."

-- Sorry to inform you, but you are not initiated, therfore you are actually not yet following the path. Until you gain initiation, you are merely a seeker and a wannabe satsangi. Furthermore, I don't claim to be "following the path" or "better". I ceased practicing that path many years ago, but I still have a great deal of direct experience as well as knowledge about the RS path.

Aman said: "are many un initiated people who follow sant mat path much better than the initiated ones"

-- Again, that is fundamentally incorrect. You may think that you are following some of the parameters of the path, but until you become initiated, you have no claim to anything. You are simply a wannabe and a poseur who claims to be following "sant mat path much better than the initiated ones". You yourself said that.

Aman said: "don't give me this reason that just becuase I'm not initiated I cannot follow the path."

-- No one said that you "cannot" follow the path. But until you gain initiation you are only in preparation. And that is not what I say, but rather that is what RSS says and all the RS masters say.

Aman said: "whether i'm merely engaging in my mental speculation you are no one to decide how do you know this?"

-- Because you have shown that in many of your speculative comments.

Aman said: "just because you see something from a different perspective doesn't mean my view is my mental speculation & you have the right speculation."

-- I am not speculating about anything. I am only reporting and pointing to what the RSS itself and its masters have said. It is not my opinion, but the opinion of RSS

Aman said: "are no one to decide what sant mat teaches infact sant mat clearly states that marking is done by the lord"

-- I never said that I decide, and the issue is not 'who' marks, but rather about the ridiculous notion of "marking" itself.

Aman said: "I didn't mean that initiation means taken care in case of reaching sach khand, I meant being initiated doesn't mean you don't have to do anything the master is responsible for your evolution but you have to walk on the path sach khand will not come to you."

-- That is NOT what the Radha Soami doctrine says. The RS doctine says that the initiate is guarenteed by the master to reach sach khand within four lifetimes.

Aman said: "If you really have some attainment of higher consciousness, out of body experience, soul travel etc. then discuss this stuff..."

-- I am not interested in discussing such dualistic nonsense.

Aman said: "...just by saying that There is nothing to achieve and nowhere to arrive at. This... Is It. Doesn't mean anything..."

-- You only feel that it doesn't mean anything to YOU. But what do you know about that anyway?

Aman said: "...it only shows that you don't couldn't achieve anything & now just because you couldn't you are satisfied with NOW!!"

-- You simply do not what I have "achieved". You could not possibly know. So your foolish assertion is nothing more than another manifestation of your ignorance and stupidity.

Aman said: "Please don't waste your time & mine."

-- YOU are wasting YOUR time by coming to this open-minded blog forum and behaving like a contentious and ignorant troll.

Aman said: "You sound like an enlightened person but your words don't have the power to back it up"

-- Again, you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about me or about my words or about my spiritual understanding and realization.

Aman said: "I think it's better you stay in this 'instant presence' zone."

-- Unfortunately for you you have no idea what you are talking about. And 'Instant Presence' is not a "zone".

Like I said, my decided conclusion about you Aman, is that you are just another RSS internet troll who has foolishly come here attempting to harass, pester, beleaguer, deride, and mock the 'ex-satsangis' (for lack of a better term). But you could not hold your own in a debate if your life depended upon it. You are nothing more than a lame RS sycophant who is full of rubbish and nonsese, and almost everyone here knows it. In fact, you are really just another reflection of pathetic RS guru-cultism. At this point, you have proven that you do not deserve any further attention or energy or chances.

Good-bye RS troll.

Aman said: "I told the same thing to tao also that just by saying i'm in the instant presense zone doesn't mean anything you need to experience it by changing the state in which you are in right now. Vedas & saints have given many warnings to such people who follow the way of gyan or knowledge just because their assumptions are based on intellect not first hand experience."

-- You simply do not know what I "experience". And you clearly do not know what "instant presence" means or IS. And you clearly do not know what you are talking about with respoct to "zone". And your saying: "changing the state in which you are in right now" only confirms your utter ignorance of the 'self-perfected' state and what it means. And moreover, it has nothing at all to do with any such "gyan" or "intellect".

Therfore Aman, by dint of your own ignorant comments, you have proven yourself to be nothing more than a presumptious spiritual neophyte who beahves like a typical internet troll. You are not here to intelligently discuss the pros and CONS of sant mat, or any other path or teaching (of which you know nothing about anyway). You have now sufficiently proven what a fool and a poseur you really are.

And ironically, it's actually the impudent little punks like you who are the ones who give the Radha Soami Satsang a bad name, and NOT the ex-satsangis and critics.


Komposer said: "When you write, "be, as you really are" there seems to be an implication that somehow I could be as I am really not, or as I a little am, or a lot am."

...Ha! I like clever thinking. Good for you, but still, I think you understood my meaning. It is difficult, when talking about this sort of thing, to be precise enough with words. They always lead to more questions.

You said--"Perhaps some "path" or "process" is necessary to disidentify with it, even if, as you say, there is really no where to go."

...I think the crux of the matter is that it is seen that there is no one to disidentify with it. The identified individual is a fiction...Poof. Up in smoke.

You said-"Let us now say that you convince him that he is not in fact mickey mouse, but joe smith."

...He is neither mickey nor joe, he is no one at all. Mickey just drops away and what is left is This with no boundary or attribute, the happening of Life of which the "I" sense is just another fleeting phenomena.

You can't talk or reason your way to seeing what I am talking about. It is just happening. Really, anything I say is misleading. This. Just This. This "instant presence" Mr. Tao talks about.

You asked- "How do you integrate your view of the world into more sustained, lived experience?"

..."You" can't do a thing. People want something they can do, but the idea that there is someone who could do it is the very thing keeping them from it.

Aman said- "but just the knowledge of the self is not enough there has to be a process which will unfold the real self"

...It is "seen" that there is no self to have knowledge of, and there is no real self to unfold. Where would it stand to see itself? That is the game of duality.

Aman says-"Just like Komposer said the guy in the mickey mouse has to come out & know that he is joe smith but still further if I go to him & say the joe smith is the name of this body but you are a soul."

...Now we have three fictitious entities: Mickey, Joe and Soul!!

Aman said- "How will he comprehend this information unless he experiences it??"

...There is no "he" to comprehend IT and IT is no thing that can be comprehended as an object. No he. No it. No this nor that. Sages have been saying it for ages.

Aman said- "Vedas & saints have given many warnings to such people who follow the way of gyan or knowledge just because their assumptions are based on intellect not first hand experience."

...Unless their "assumptions" are based on first hand experience and not intellect! But words are words no matter who says them. Each must see it for themselves. ("Each" and "it" being used for convenience and necessity of language).

Aman said- "The whole point of the journey from finite consciousness to infinite consciousness is to bring into experience this belief that I AM WHAT I AM!!

...Finite and infinite are the same and thus extinguish the other. It can't journey to itself. The thought "I am what I am" is the primordial illusion. Imagine no I at all.

Aman said- "but it has to be experienced to fully comprehend that,"

...Who would comprehend/experience it? Can the eye see itself? See? ;o)

"That's why the journey"

...who would make it?

"is so important when we change our consciousness level to higher ones we realize different aspects of our being"

...there is no we to have a being. Just BEING !

"this gives rise to the ultimate reality"

...there is no one to know it, therefore it cannot be known!!

"but if we don't go through change like the mickey mouse guy won't come out of the suit he will never fully understand the true nature of what he is."

...which is no thing at all. You see if he thinks he knows the true nature of what he is, it may as well be Mickey Mouse and we're back to square one.


Tulsi, are you a ex-satsangi. Did you reach this state through RSSB or despite RSSB.

Dear Tulsi

I get your point but I don't agree with your idea of there's nothing. Even if you believe that just realize the BEING! there is still something it cannot be nothing. The BEING is there. The state you speak about is definitely fine but if you think in that state there's nothing no subject no object I don't agree because no matter what you cannot remove the BEING, there is still something you may call it BEING I call it soul but still there is existence it cannot be nothing!! & to reach that state there has to be the process by which you disengage the other false ideas of the "I" or ego & still there's something which is left it can be infinite consciousness but still there is existence or the "I" merging in the cosmic consciousness but it cannot be nothing!! If no journey or spiritual progress is required then how can you reach that state of just BEING!! don't tell me that only knowledge of this is enough there has to be an experience of the self where it is seperated from all duality to become unalloyed BEING!! but how to reach that state??

What I'm trying to say is that yes in the end only the BEING!! remains, in the end only the eye remains & it cannot see itself true but for that to happen the journey is still essential. Only knowledge of your self cannot be enough. That state has to be experienced. By going from duality to non-duality.

What Aman does not understand is that occultism is different from mysticism? Even I had this problem in my initial days of Radha Soami brainstorming. OF course, I realised the hoax of Radha Soami. That is another story.

Dear Deepak
Then why don't you tell me what is this mysticism you talk about? What is this Radhasoami hoax?

Occultism is something that deals with the exotic, is forced. It is like trying to get out of the body, telepathy, siddhis, riddhis. It uses a lot of willpower. Astral travel, clairvoyance, clairaudience, mediumship, dualistic games, ESP et al belong to this category. Occultism is more of extroversion.

Mysticism is more along the lines of surrender, a let go, a flow. It is more of an introversion. Mysticism is more about realization and let-go. It is about the dawning of wisdom.

I found that RSSb is more concerned about the occultist part of life. Its technique of hearing the dhun, repitition and remembrance of the master are more on the lines of semi-occult method. The mystic method is more of a natural let-go without any judgement. That's what I do now.

Dear Deepak

Could you please tell what do you mean by ---The mystic method is more of a natural let-go without any judgement. That's what I do now.-- by saying this that you do this I want to know what exactly you do?? I mean is there some meditation involved like sitting & forgetting our surrounding, body & eventually coming to the point where there's nothing else left no thought no image no vision no breath it's only you as an observer observing nothing at all or is it something else.

You know. Mystic method is about surrender. Occult is about gaining.

In the mystic method, you just observe. As and when you go on observing, your past impressions keep coming. Different thoughts, emotions etc keep on coming. However, we keep on going in a state of divine ignorance. Sometimes we have faith. Sometimes we have fear. It is isness and nothing else. Staring into reality.

But I must mention that I am not an authority on this subject because I am myself a struggling soul.

My faith is agnosticism. I really don't know. I keep meditating. SOmetimes, the five names of Radha Soami keep coming out of habit. I just watch. Sometimes some other thoughts keep coming. THere are spaces too. It is about acceptance.

I feel that this concept of sadhana is that of an ego asserting itself. Have faith and do what you think is right.

As for RSSB bluff, I must say that sadhana never leads to enlightenment. Assuming that you do RSSB meditation and you reach Sach Khand. Even then who reaches Sach Khand. Who is the one who is leaving the body.

I consider Sri Ramana Maharshi an authority on the issues of meditation. Because he was authentic. No power mongering. No ego. He was just there.

Dear Deepak

I agree that even if something reaches sach khand then still the question remains what is that self but I guess that's what the regions of anami is all about where there is no object no subject nothing at all it's only yourself as a pure being. Have you read baba faqir chand?? a radical rs master but I like what he said about his final realization that I'm just a bubble is this ocean of consciousness & the bubble will merge back in the ocean. The way of ramana maharshi is not so easy. The way he got his enlightenment I don't think we are capable of that simply because his way was of knowledge & he was evolved enough to stay in that knowledge of self. In the vedas this path is considered the most dangerous because for a common man to be in that knowledge 24 hours a day is practically impossible. I think for common people like me we need an experience which can show us or make us realize that we are not this body only such an experience can give me complete satisfaction that I'm a soul & not this body. Maybe you find the path of knowledge the right one but for me I need first hand experience to know my true self, knowledge alone doesn't work for me.

Dear Compadres Comrades and Dudes,

There is just Being and no one to know it. If you see it and say, "Oh that's it and now I know it", you have a subject-object perception...the perceiver and the perceived. This is duality. This is illusion.

Let's say there have been times when there was "just Being". When one is "just Being" questions drop away and all is obvious. Instantly many opposing concepts unify, conflicting perceptions are seen in the cohesiveness of the "big picture". It is seen that every tiny particle, every galaxy and universe is just as it should be. But as soon as the thought comes, "I know this", then it is split and the fullness is lost. There is a memory of the fullness and it can be discussed abstractly as we are doing here, but it is not the fullness (which is simultaneously emptiness) itself. So when I say there is no thing, this is just a description of what can't be described. Words fall completely short and can be picked apart endlessly. It is just beating about the bush, but not the bush itself. All these words and ideas..fullness, big picture, Being, realization, highest consciousness, etc. are pointing to something that can't be known, because to know it, someone would have to be there to know it. In the absence of self, all opposing concepts of higher-lower, pain-pleasure, evil-good, birth-death merge, and as such, neither polarity exists and yet they do. This is the paradox of being..you are, but you aren't. When there is neither this nor that, there is no "thing" at all. Absolute can't be known as a thing or object. Infinity can't be contained in a concept, attained by a dreamed entity, reached by any particular process. It can't be reached because it is the reaching. It can't be known because it is the knowing.

All spiritual paths are beating around the bush, a bush that doesn't exist as such. How can you follow a path to This which is always present. Here is always present. When you get there, then there is here. You will forever be here.. Before you were born, you were here. After you die, you will be here. Here, this, is always immediately available no matter how far you travel, how far inside you go, how many fabulous astral/causal regions you pass. It has no duration, how could you hold it? It has no shape, how could you see it? It has no description, how could you know it? We are already home because the end of the road was the start and there was never anywhere to go.

tulsi,

When I write above,
"be, as you really are" there seems to be an implication that somehow I could be as I am really not, or as I a little am, or a lot am,"

I am only half trying to be clever. I am also being sincere. In my sincerity, I ask, how can I be as I am? I can hear your answer, that there is no how...
which is why you critique the concept of a path and technique which suggests that doing a certain thing will lead to an outcome. And I understand and agree with your point that such a concept of a path can hinder insight which may happen anytime--if we always think we must be at the end of a neverending road, we close ourselves off now to possible insights.

BUT, I repeat, how can I be as I am? Why even make a point about that? Aren't I being as I am when I have my hand down my points and am watching TV? Am I being as I am when I am deeply absorbed in some activity? Am I being as I am when I am asleep? I think duality actually often comes to an end...when I am sleeping, I don't think I am dual, when I am absrobed in a funny episode of the simpsons, I am just watching, etc. etc.

When you write, just be, it sounds so simple, yet I don't think you really mean just being as in just living life and doing whatever. You mean a state without thought (you write above, "But as soon as the thought comes, "I know this", then it is split and the fullness is lost") and this state is not "just being as you are"--it is a special state that is actually very different from being as I normally am. Add the task of being nondual without being absorbed in anything as funny as the simpsons, and the difficulty gets ramped up...

Also, how am I supposed to be as I am with all this cultural conditioning controlling my thoughts and actions? Even your concept of "being as you are" comes from somewhere. Not to knock you too hard, but I suspect you read that somewhere or heard it from someone. I too am just a parrot, so please don't take this as a personal attack. We can't just be as we are, un-selfconsciously, because then we wouldn't survive in society. This is why a path is helpful. When we think we are on a path, then we prioritize and make time to try to (re)-connect to this state you refer to. I understand that the trying itself gets in the way, but that is our fate...and if we try for long enough, maybe we will forget we are trying and suddenly....disappear.

Dear Komposer

I think you are absolutely right about the HOW?? question. This is what I want to know that how does one achieve the so called state of just being without shifting from the present condition we are already in. Any path shows us a direction & especially via meditation if we can remove all these covers on our true self then maybe that's the right way to go instead of just reading some theory & believing it without any first hand experience. I think only experience can fully satisfy this emptiness. When we say there's no where to go but yet we still don't have any experience of our true self, but when we do move from different consciousness levels I think that's what gives us the actual knowledge of the BEING state.

Being or Doing (or the complexities of path or no-path, self or no-self etc).

Interesting conceptual philosophising going on. Indeed indeed! I don't know too much about this, but would like to give my personal experiences and perspective.

We talk & think about 'enlightenment' or 'Being' as if it is something to be acheived, something we can generate or cause. This is because the dualistic mind is unable to think or concieve within other frameworks of reference. The man in the dream world ponders endlessly how to take the dream gold with him to the wide awake world and make himself rich! This is the dualistic mind calculating by what method or path to reach the non-dual! They unwittingly conceptually imagine this 'nirvana' or 'being' they've heard mentioned in scritpures to be a construct within time & space, hence we are not there now and it is somewhere 'else'. This is the dualistic illusions and patterning of the human mind.

We create a conceptual representation of 'Being' or 'nirvana' etc, and then we play various mental gymnastic games, about this path or that path or no path. About sudden or gradual 'enlightenment'. All dualistic conceptual games and fantasies.

I would express it (my life) such:

I was aware. Into this awareness was poured endless conditioning. Conditioning from parents, siblings, friends, teachers etc. Moral, linguistic, social, sexual, cultural conditionings, layer upon layer. Conditioning from my biology too. This all culminated in the self-aware entity called 'Manjit'. This entity believed in it's own inherent existence AS an entity; Manjit. As I came of age, I continued to condition myself further, in line with the 'mystical' & 'spritual' paradigms of RS. I was now a soul trapped in the physical body, trapped by my karmas etc The 'path' out was both clear and linear. Nice and easy for the mind to comprehend!

I blossomed as a RSSB 'seeker'. From a variety of 'inner experiences' (which the most powerful of, interestingly yet at the time confusingly, didn't fit the RS model at all) such as a pantheon of beautiful radiant forms (including Sawan, Charan & Gurinder), astral travelling at will in unbelievably beautiful cities, buildings, gardens and lakes etc of the most stunningly inoxicating beauty, to other various inner states of intoxication which cannot be so easily described in dualistic language, most primarily that of love or bhakti.

I literally knew (or thought I did) that the path was true, as my 'inner experiences' 'proved' it!

However, my intense desire for the truth caused me a great, great deal of problems. I began to question, REALLY question, what my inner experiences really showed. I tried testing them. Astral projecting to a place and counting the money on top of a cupboard and then subsequently checking in 'real' life if I was correct (never). Reading the testimonies of countless other 'seekers' who saw the 'radiant form' of their obviously deviant 'guru'. Reading Neural surfer and Chand. Etc etc etc. The avenues which disprove the RS theology quite convincingly are both obvious and many.

This was my 'dark night of the soul'. Cannot remember how long it lasted. I gave up what was now to me obviously a 'fallacy', the RS theology, and that of many mystics I had previously loved such as Nanak. Gurinder not responding to my letter, written with tears, was one of the final straws which helped me see through this manufactured and artifical 'spirituality'. At times overly hedonistic, at times extremely depressed. No structure for my life, no purpose, nothing. If EVERYTHING I had believed up to this point in my life was a fallacy, then what was left? Now, the EASIEST thing in the world would have been to keep deceiving myself. Pushing all the doubts to the back of my mind and continue following the RS 'path'. But I couldn't. My passion was always for the truth, regardless of how HARD it is to swallow. If there was no meaning to life, then that's what I wanted to know, not some wishy washy fantasy to make me feel SPECIAL!

Anyways, losing track here!

Point is, amongst this dark night of the soul, an avowed ATHEIST I was, no meditation practice whatsoever, no faith and no hope. I didn't believe any of it.

That's when IT happened. A series of unexpected & ununderstood experiences which led to a permanent shift in consciousness. It can be expressed, though vastly innefficiently, in 2 ways; I had no-self, or non-dual consciousness. Then I *finally* understood intimately all the 'spiritual' texts that I had up until then only imagined I had fully understood.

Our thoughts are not in our control. We have no free will. It is the false combination of our awareness with the automatic thoughts which we generate which gives rise to this illusion. The seperation of our thoughts from our awareness can be experienced in meditation. I personally think the analogue for this is Bhanwar Gupha of RS theology. Here is it realised without doubt that our thoughts are automatic, not within our control as we falsely imagine them to be. The scientific proof for this is the fact we think and dream every night without being aware of it. So who is the 'I' that is in 'control'??!

And so it is with paths and no-paths. We falsely think we are in 'control', and that we will 'acheive' 'that' by performing such and such a 'method'. Imo, this is all dualistic illusion. Game play.

Liberation or enlightenment is entirely spontaneous. A-causal. It is not even an 'experience' or an altered state of consciousness, entirely impossible though this is for somebody to grasp conceptually. It is merely the absence of false point of reference labelled 'self'. There is ONLY this or THAT. No individual self seperated from the environment. Just THIS.

It is 'acheived' entirely without method or order or according to any dualistic paradigm man may create. Some will 'acheive' it by accident, some will not despite decades of trying! Such is the wonder of existence! The chaos! Entirely spontaneous, without rhyme or reason! The grand play of the 'divine'!

Like a flower whose DESTINY it is to blossom will first sprout forth as a leaf, then a bud, then blossom, all in order. In truth, it was always going to flower, it was it's very nature. It was a flower all the way through The same with people who acheive 'Being'. It never really mattered whether they followed shabd yoga or advaita, christianity or atheism, Gurinder or Rajinder, the Pope or Richard Dawkins, it just doesn't matter. It is the NATURE of the follower to 'seek'. It may (or may not) be in their nature to ACHEIVE 'enlightenment'. What method or 'path' they use doesn't matter, never mattered, all dualistic illusion and gameplay. It was in their very NATURE that they would seek, here or there, they would blossom after going through various stages. It is no use telling a rock to photosynthesise! Likewise it is no use telling everybody to listen to shabd! Millions may here it, yet liberation is in nobody's control! Sound is easy, so are lights and inner regions. I dare anybody to follow what I say for 30 days and not experience these!! Easy! The loss of the illusion of 'self' an entirely different matter. No path. No instructions. Apart from follow your NATURE and hope for the best.

So the point is, when somebody like Tulsi (Osho Robbins??? :) or Ramana say 'there is no path, just be', they are actually discussing their own realisation. There literally is no path, and there is nothing to acheive, only they can see it!! They say these things in hope of catching those who are just about ready to BLOOM. To give them that little 'push' over into....

Of course these instructions are not for everyone! Think about it, even if you only have an intellectual grasp of these 'advaitic' sentiments, could you even conceive of trying to explain this to a narrow minded Christian?

I'm sorry, there is no difference in trying to explain this simple yet highest spiritual truth to even the majority of 'satsangis', even if they think they understand deep spiritual concepts! They aren't neccessarily ready for this one! In the same way you wouldn't expect a child to do quantum physics, but start with ABC, so it is with 'mysticism'. I would swear when Gurinder used this analogy at Haynes Park a few years ago, he was referring to precisely this. To Faqir Chand and how most people are unready to grasp those kind of ideas when they are so mentally enmeshed in the traditional dualistic RS paradigm.......

PS, the history & evolution of mystical practice and thought very strongly indicates this too. The entire RS practice has emerged and evolved from the tantric practices of Gorakhnath and Kashmiri Shaivism, which in turn was a devolution of 'advatic' thought. The first few paragraphs of the tantric text Vijnanbhairava tantra are an excellent example. Prior to detaiiling 118 meditation practices, shabd yoga amongst them, it BEGINS with a simple 'non-dual' statement and then proceeds to say something like 'but for those who are unable to understand, the following meditation practices are provided'. This kind of thing is prominent in a wide array of ancient and classical texts which were the origins of today's RS practice.

In other words, if you don't understand this simple truth, you are already enlightened, keep yourself amused in the meantime with this meditation practice.........:o)

there is neither "something", nor "nothing".

there is no "BEING" as an object to remove.

there is no "merging".

there is no necessity to "reach that state" of "just being".

being is not a "state".

the so-called "cosmic" is an illusion.

there is no one to have "knowledge".

no "knowledge" is necessary.

the so-called "journey" is an illusion.

the so-called "duality" is an illusion.

there is no "self" existing that can separate from an illusory "duality".

there is no "duality" existing for an illusory "self" to separate from.

no "journey" is "essential".

no such "knowledge of your self" exists.

there is no "state" to be "experienced".

there is no "going from duality to non-duality".


Aman said: "The way of ramana maharshi is not so easy."

-- there was no such "way". and 'self-abidance' (and ramana maharshi's self-abidance) was/is completely natural and effortless. those who are not informed should not make such kinds of false and incorrect assertions.

Aman said: " The way he got his enlightenment"

-- there was no such "way". his realization was spontaneous. those who are not informed should not make such kinds of false and incorrect assertions.

Aman said: "I don't think we are capable of that simply because his way was of knowledge & he was evolved enough to stay in that knowledge of self."

-- that is factually incorrect. there was no "his way", nor "of knowledge", nor "was evolved". that is not where he abided, and it is not what he said and taught. those who are not informed should not make such kinds of false and incorrect assertions.

Aman said: " In the vedas this path is considered the most dangerous because for a common man to be in that knowledge 24 hours a day is practically impossible."

-- that is absolutely incorrect. the vedas and upanishads most certainly do NOT say that atma-vichara, atma-jnana, or sahaja samadhi is "the most dangerous" or "practically impossible".

Aman said: "how does one achieve the so called state of just being without shifting from the present condition we are already in."

-- "being" is not a "state". and this so-called "being" is not different from the so-called "present state".

Aman said: "if we can remove all these covers on our true self then maybe that's the right way to go instead of just reading some theory & believing it without any first hand experience."

-- there are no "covers", nor is there any "true self", nor is there anyone here other than Aman who is advocating "just reading some theory" or just "believing".

Aman said: "I think only experience can fully satisfy this emptiness."

-- experience is always transitory, and is fundamentally un-satisfactory (not able to "satisfy").

Aman said: "but yet we still don't have any experience of our true self"

-- it is not "an experience". there is no one to "have". there is no one to "experience" a "true self".

Aman said: "I think that's what gives us the actual knowledge of the BEING state."

-- "BEING" (SAT) is not a "state". there is no such "knowledge of". so-called "being" (sat) IS "knowledge" (jnana). there is no separation or difference.


My entire previous comment was in response to Aman (not to Manjit).

In addition:

Aman said: "The way of ramana maharshi is not so easy."

-- those who are not informed should not make such kinds of false and incorrect assertions. there was no such "way". and 'self-abidance' (and ramana maharshi's self-abidance) was/is completely natural and effortless.

Aman said: " The way he got his enlightenment"

-- those who are not informed should not make such kinds of false and incorrect assertions. there was no such "way". his realization was spontaneous.

Aman said: "I don't think we are capable of that simply because his way was of knowledge & he was evolved enough to stay in that knowledge of self."

-- those who are not informed should not make such kinds of false and incorrect assertions. that assertion is factually incorrect. there was no "his way", nor "of knowledge", nor "was evolved". that is not where he abided, and that is not what he said or taught.

Aman said: " In the vedas this path is considered the most dangerous because for a common man to be in that knowledge 24 hours a day is practically impossible."

-- that is absolutely incorrect. the vedas and upanishads most certainly do NOT say that atma-vichara, atma-jnana, or sahaja samadhi is "the most dangerous" or "practically impossible".

Aman said: "how does one achieve the so called state of just being without shifting from the present condition we are already in."

-- "being" is not a "state". and this so-called "being" is not different from the so-called "present state".

Aman said: "if we can remove all these covers on our true self then maybe that's the right way to go instead of just reading some theory & believing it without any first hand experience."

-- there are no "covers", nor is there any "true self", nor is there anyone here other than Aman who is advocating "just reading some theory" or just "believing".

Aman said: "I think only experience can fully satisfy this emptiness."

-- experience is always transitory, and is fundamentally un-satisfactory (not able to "satisfy").

Aman said: "but yet we still don't have any experience of our true self"

-- it is not "an experience". there is no one to "have". there is no one to "experience" a "true self".

Aman said: "I think that's what gives us the actual knowledge of the BEING state."

-- "BEING" (SAT) is not a "state". nor is there any such "knowledge of". so-called "being" (sat) IS "knowledge" (jnana) and vbice-versa. there is no separation or difference.


Dear Tulsi,

"We are already home because the end of the road was the start and there was never anywhere to go."

I don't disagree with your last statement-- after all, it is a well known narrative of Zen and Vedanta. However, because you approach and express it through the lens of the discriminative mind, i.e. you imagine it, as opposed to 'be' the authentic source at the origin of the words and expressions themselves, you still apply traditional logic to it. If A is A then A is necessarily A. If the start and the end are one and the same then nothing in between can be admitted; no dynamic distinction can find an origin at the heart of an ever beginning and end that are one and the same and that do not contradict the unity that is inherent to Reality. Does it make any sense? Probably not.

But your rhetoric is simply arguing in favor of some well known narratives from the perspective of traditional logic--which belongs to the mind of discrimination. Simply reread how you write and present your propositions and narratives. You may eventually see how much you try to assert your points using the same logic that you decry. And thus you are led to make naive affirmations and blabber senselessly about them. Reread what you wrote and you may also come to realize that your characterizations of many aspects of life (religion, knowledge, etc), which are identical to those of Tony Parson btw, are terribly naive, narrow minded and reductionists. You cast almost everything into a particular and very narrow light--one that is always convenient with respect to your own narratives. On the one hand, you decry the words and the imagination. On the other hand, you have no problem/shame to distort and reduce life to caricatures of itself using words, in addition of implying implicitly that these views are the way it is ...

Because all the narratives you presented in your post have been imagined by you, as opposed 'to be' and simply expressing/pointing to the reality evoked by the words and life of Ramana, Nisargadatta, Meister Echkart, Spinoza, etc. you are bound by the logic of the mind.
And the logic of the ambiguity, which is underlying the infinite and simple--i.e. unity-- unfolding that is Life, is missed.

Authentic understanding is simple. Imagination is naive. The former will never deceive. The latter will eventually lead to suffering. Unfortunately, the poor souls haunting the spiritual scenes--on the internet or not--will always confuse naivity with simplicity.

From Alston's "Sankara on the Absolute":

"It seems clear that Gaudapada thought that the Buddhist works which he so freely quoted were only restating the old Upanishadic wisdom enunciated by Yajnavalkya, but in a clearer, more systematic form, better suited to the philosophic climate of his own day. Both the Madhyamikas and Gaudapada appeal to a special form of yoga that takes those who practicse it successfully to an experience that lies beyond the distinction of subject
and object. Thus Nagarjuna's commentator Candrakirti says: 'Objects are only perceived through the distorted double-vision (timira) of nescience. Their true nature (atman) is perceived by the masters through the yoga-of-non-vision (adarsana-yoga).' This answers to the (originally
Buddhist) yoga-of-no-contact (asparsa-yoga) taught by Gaudapada and to his 'experts in the Upanishadic wisdom who look upon the world as if it were a cloud-city seen in a dream'."


Therefore...

"The unattainable is attained through its unattainment" -- Nicholas of Cusa


I'm a lttle pissed off because I wrote a long response to some things Komposer and Aman wrote, and it got lost in the process of posting it. Sorry guys, I didn't mean to ignore your questions and now because that clarification got lost Elephant is on my case, which is fine but I'm out of energy. That post would have addressed some of the interesting points he, Komposer and Aman took the time to raise. Anyway, I did carefully read your posts. Briefly:

Elephant wrote: "I don't disagree with your last statement-- after all, it is a well known narrative of Zen and Vedanta."

...Cool. But if, as implied by the body of your comment that what I have said is imagination of the logical mind, then wouldn't Zen and Vedanta be that also? Wouldn't anything that is comprehensible?

Elephant said: "you imagine it, as opposed to 'be' the authentic source at the origin of the words and expressions themselves, you still apply traditional logic to it."

...Yes, the words are imaginative reflections or memories of intuitive perception. As such, they can only be an idea of it, but not it. In that sense they are worthless, but maybe, in response, someones's own intuition can be iginited and they can see what is true for themselves, if in fact there is any "thing" that is true. Maybe they will see there isn't?

Elephant said- "..then nothing in between can be admitted"

..I don't think there is really any beginning, end or in-between, but it would take a book to explain that and I still wouldn't succeed.

Elephant said- "..which are identical to those of Tony Parson btw"

...Again, cool. I enjoyed one of his books. If reductionism means reducing things down to where nothing is left, then we can begin to understand (figuratively of course).

Elephant wrote- "all the narratives you presented in your post have been imagined by you, as opposed 'to be' and simply expressing/pointing to the reality evoked by the words and life of Ramana, Nisargadatta, Meister Echkart, Spinoza, etc"

...Very cool. I might have to get an agent and arrange a speaking tour. I could get a loincloth and get paying followers! There's a potential devotee born every minute.$$$ But really, that's all I was trying to do...point. At what? Well, see what you see.

Elephant wrote: "Authentic understanding is simple. Imagination is naive. The former will never deceive. The latter will eventually lead to suffering."

...There's one of those logical imaginations you're scolding me for.

I'm tired. Over and out...for now.

For all the non-scientific guru-devotion minded, the authoritarian religious cultists, and the neophyte wannabe mystics:


What is Religion?

http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/sacred1.html


Where Did Religion Come From?

http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/sacred2.html


Why Study Religion?

http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/sacred3.html


How Should We Study Religion?

http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/sacred4.html


What is the Social Function of Religion?

http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/sacred5.html


Where is Religion Heading?

http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/sacred6.html


Hi Manjit

Somehow you made complete sense to me :-) thanks for sharing this.

Dear Tao

I really admire how much hard work you put in these discussions it's a pleasure to see someone so much into all this. Now please don't take this in a wrong way I really mean it :-)

everything happens naturally and spontaneously all by itself. no "hard work" or effort is ever needed. and there is no "someone" existing who is "into all this", or to "admire".

this "Aman" and his dream of believing in sant mat and following a RS master and practicing meditation will continue on only until the final awakening occurs. then it will all simply vanish like the illusion that it always was and is.


if one does not truly understand what was meant by the above, then perhaps listening to these audio files will bring sufficient clarity:

http://www.satramana.org/html/downloads.htm


Komposer:

Please ignore my misleading words "just be as you are." You said it yourself: "When you write, 'be, as you really are' there seems to be an implication that somehow I could be as I am really not, or as I a little am, or a lot am." I think that's right on. There's nothing "we" can do to be or not be as we really are. No matter what, we're being it.

You said- "Add the task of being nondual without being absorbed in anything as funny as the simpsons, and the difficulty gets ramped up..."

...Well then, here is my personalized dharma suggestion for you, for whenever you feel like being enlightened. Find a comfortable seat and put your hand down your pants as you, Al Bundy and many of us males are prone to do, for some inexplicable reason, and watch Laurel and Hardy in "The Piano Movers".

some additional clarification is available in recorded tape format:

http://www.satramana.org/html/nome_tapes.htm


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