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October 02, 2007

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“Sort of. It's hard enough for me to understand me. Translating understandings from one mind to another is considerably more difficult.” Amen to that statement. Know thyself seemed to be pretty good but very very difficult to do advice.


“Heck, I still am. Who can say that they're totally fulfilled, with no empty spots in their larder of happiness?” what would life be like if we were totally fulfilled?

“Brian, if you were an initiate for 30 years, believe me those years did not go to waste” does anything go to waste in this universe? If the choices or experiences were not needed maybe we would not have made those choices or has those experiences. Is the universe wasteful? Did we need a Hitler? Could very well be that we did.

Speaking of Hitler a recent survey found that 40% of American high school teens thought that Germany was our ally in World War II to fight Russia. "Childrens do learn" in America if we give them enough tests. Another voter poll showed that almost 40% of voters thought that Iraq had something to do with 9/11.

Translating knowledge from one mind to another appears to be very difficult. But it certainty appears if we meaning mass media says something often enough it becomes that person’s reality.

“Take care on your journey.” Oh a kindred soul that talks about a journey.

“remember you didn't go beyond yet.” Beyond what? The ego? Bet this person thinks that he or she has gone beyond whatever.

Brian,
I think this person is laying a guilt trip on you and is just parroting the RS party line.

He/she says: "being an initiate isn't always about the rules; it is about the love and devotion that is in your heart."--

Sure, they talk about love and devotion in Sant Mat, but it is also about following dogmatic vows, not flexible, adaptable general principles..VOWS.

"I believe the (Your) problem was you became too preoccupied with the dogma of rites/rituals/practices of what you should or shouldn't do."--

That's exactly what they teach..do this (follow the vows) don't do that.

"Ultimately, the self-realization kicks in and if it hasn't it is because you choose to listen to your 'negative thoughts'."--

Bullshit. That's mind control. You were simply thinking for yourself and not letting someone tell you how to think. You were listening to your gut and the truth within yourself.

"nor is it to control your mind and it's way of thinking. But once you do, you understand what the teachings really meant."--

He's patronizing you. You know what the teachings meant as well as anyone.

"The meaning of "brain washed" is when you have no choice;"--

The vows give you no choice. If you blindly accept them, you're brainwashed.

"Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened."--

This might be true if you're hunting for mushrooms, but spiritual truth is not found, it is realized. Big difference.

"I thought you had a "hurt child" in your writing"--

Sure, it hurts to be conned and a sucker or dupe, but we get over it.

"..maybe if you can heal that you will see what the world has to offer you."--

He's the one who needs healing for his lame brain. As for you, I think your vistas are wide open and you're doing fine.

"Lifetimes....my friend...many lifetimes, but if we can be positive and love and see that we are all one...we might be on the right track...remember you didn't go beyond yet...because if you did you wouldn't "write" this way.

Take care on your journey."--

Lifetimes are a dream, imaginary. There is no right track or path to anywhere, nor is there any 'beyond' or journey. IT is right now as you are, and your Taoism has shown you that.

He needs to learn from you, not the other way around.


"nor is there any 'beyond' or journey."

No beyond? Read the book "no living person could have known" then explain to me how these mediums in these eleven stories could have known what they did.

So far I am batting zero that any atheist or advaita type has read this book. Once we turn our beliefs into a religion we no longer read material that disagrees with our cherished religion. Being churchless does not mean beliefs cannot become a religion. Darwinism has proven that.

Become a scientist at a major university and state you want to conduct research into the paranormal and see what happens to your career. The evangels have nothing on the Darwinists in the world.

“Lifetimes are a dream, imaginary.” When that police officer gives you that imaginary “dream ticket” and you decide not to pay it don’t panic that imaginary jail cell they put you in is only a dream. And when sheriff Joe gives you that imaginary 30 cent dinner don’t panic it is all just a dream.

With this link you will be able to see American humvees being blown apart by Iraqi IED’s. Go tell the soldier that lost both legs that his pain and suffering and missing legs is all just a dream. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ISQWsezxLM&mode=related&search=

This is how insane religious beliefs can become. The Christians think they are being saved by blood and flesh and the advaita types think it is all just an illusion. I will quote my favorite author that does not sign a name but comes through the mediumship of George Wright in the book “the open door”.

“Learn also to regard the Appearance as the manifestation of the Real to your senses, not as an illusion or false in any degree. It is the projection of the Real into the field of your senses although the primary Cause that expresses itself thus can be felt by the Soul as a separate and dissimilar entity.”………………..”

”Learn lastly that this Whole which you see reflected in the universe about you is not only that of which you are a part, it is YOU. The reality that expresses itself as a universe is that which IS and that which is SELF.”

Brian,

I feel quite amused as and when I find you writing that you have left RSSB and have sweet or bitter memories of it. You are probably remembering (doing simran- not repeating five words) the master but otherwise more than an ardent satsangi.

Leaving or accepting a particular path is not a one way traffic, you must look at the other side also.

Over a period you have evolved a clan of like minded people whose interaction you enjoy. Even I have also become a part of it. But i can not afford to group myself to a particular group. I am a free bird. I can fly the way I want it.

There are no dogmas or rituals anywhere. Things are not only difficult to persue but more diffult to learn how to persue them.

By no means I can teach/ preach an evolved soul like you,

with love,

Tucson, I understand what you're saying about the intent of the message writer. And in large part I agree with you.

However, I put into the background the "RSSB party line" interpretation of the email and focused on the part that questioned my lack of questioning the RSSB dogma.

That part I resonated with, though I readily admit that I may be reading into it my own feelings, rather than what my correspondent had in mind.

Anyway, wanted to say that I don't discount your interpretation. That was my first reaction also -- he/she was a RSSB apologist. But on a second and third reading I got more out of the message.

Of course, I'm me. Not you. Nor the person who wrote me. And that, I'd say, is the most important realization any of us could have.

William wrote: "No beyond? Read the book "no living person could have known" then explain to me how these mediums in these eleven stories could have known what they did."--

As part of your dream there may be astral planes, angels and radiant beings full of purity, wisdom and delight, but the underlying reality is just as present right here right now as it is in ANY phenomenal state or appearance that manifests in your awareness. It is always right here right now. It is present in life. It is present in death. Yet it was never born, so how could it die? What else could there be but This? It is closer than the nose on your face, prior to the breaths you take. The rest is just stuff, a passing show, whether exalted or mundane, painful or pleasurable.

"With this link you will be able to see American humvees being blown apart by Iraqi IED’s. Go tell the soldier that lost both legs that his pain and suffering and missing legs is all just a dream."--

Pain and suffering exist as phenomena and are obviously experienced as part of the dream, but the entity perceived as experiencing the pain, the happiness, the cancer, the success, the failure...is a phantom. Even with a chainsaw ripping through your guts and you are screaming so loud it can be heard in the next galaxy, the entity experiencing it is conceptual only. Strip away the thoughts, the pain, the suffering, this body, this dream, this chainsaw. What remains?..This which you are. It is just as present in a fetid cesspool as in the lap of Archangel Gabriel.

There is only God which is everything and no 'thing' at all.

Brian,

I enjoyed the message.

And I agree. Either you've got it or you aint. If you aint, then there is an apparent search.

I say apparent, 'cause we're already there, and as I understand it, we will all "get it" when we're ready. ie. - in our own time.

Everything is OK as it is!

Russellji

“There is only God which is everything and no 'thing' at all.”

Life and god will remain a basket of paradoxes to our ignorant (unaware) soul until we “ return” to that everything which we call no thing but only to our ignorant state of consciousness as we lack pure awareness.

“Yet it was never born, so how could it die?” what is never born or never dies is spirit. What was manifested as a perceived entity can best be described as a soul. Spirit expresses itself through souls that are felt by each individual soul as a separate entity. That is why people sign their names as identifiers.

“Nothing exists in itself, or for itself or by itself for there is no such thing as isolation. Separateness is impossible. In loving a part you love the whole; in desiring a part you desire the whole; in comprehending a part you comprehend the whole; and in despising a part you despise the whole.” (the open door)

Life whether in an astral world or physical world is phenomena whereas god is awareness. To deny the journey is to deny experiences. Each experience has value and meaning. It is positive ignorance in the highest order to state all is a dream when we still talk in paradoxes. Paradoxes exist for those that lack perfect awareness.

Tucson: Glad to see you use the term underlying reality. The intelligence that came through George Wright teaches that discovering this underlying reality behind Appearance and the great truths that underlie experiences is of primary importance to advance our level of consciousness.

The reason one cannot see the journey is that person thinks because they have figured out that god is oneness they think they now have learned all they need to know and understand the underlying reality behind all Appearances and the great truths behind experiences.

To see at least intellectually that god is oneness well that is first grade stuff now is the time to move on to second grade. At least it is not kindergarten like the belief that blood and flesh will take one to heaven or those 72 virgins that awaits someone that kills for god.

Long long phenomenal journey of learning ahead even for those that have figured out that god is oneness and that there is only here and now as time and space is phenomena. The gap between intellectualism and intelligence is far and wide.


Brian,

I think I understand that the writer is saying it is the love and devotion that are key and that the do's and don'ts are in place to help you get there, not the thing itself.

But where are you when you get there? Same place you are now, just a modified set of concepts and perceptions. Different phenomena, same perceiver. Who is this perceiver? It can't be found anywhere except as it's objects. It can only know itself as That. Even when I say "me" it's an object, not what is perceiving 'me'. We are the perceiving that can't be perceived!

So, I suppose through devotion one may recognise themselves as That in the form of the master and lose the illusory sense of self that way. But it could just as easily be done via a eucalyptus tree.

The problem, to me, with the positive (devotion) way is that it is less direct. There is still the duality of disciple and master, surat and Sach Khand to overcome.

The negative way (no way) strips it all to the barest core. Nothing is left. No disciple, no master. No goal. No one to do it. Just It...Anami Purush. Remember, even in Sant Mat teachings it says the surat goes to the nameless region where even the Sound, Master and the Lord of Sach Khand do not go.

Sorry I called the writer a 'lame brain', but Tao hasn't commented for a day or two so I'm picking up the slack.

William: "what is never born or never dies is spirit."--

It is NO 'THING' at all.

"Spirit expresses itself through souls.."--

There are no souls. Try to find yours.

"To deny the journey is to deny experiences."--

No experiences are denied, just the reality of the experiencer.

"..they think they now have learned all they need to know.."--

There is nothing to learn or know. Unlearn everything.

"To see at least intellectually that god is oneness well that is first grade stuff"--

Stop classifiying into grades, levels, high or low and see!! IT is the seeing!! This 'seeing' is not intellectual.

"Long long phenomenal journey of learning.."--

Learning what? That there is no time for a long journey to occur in? This is it, NOW. It's shouting..THIS, HERE, NOW !

“Stop classifiying into grades, levels, high or low and see!! IT is the seeing!!” The word stop here is very revealing as it is of the ego.

“ This 'seeing' is not intellectual.” Oh but it is Tucson it is of the ego the very fact that you are defending this “seeing” of yours on this blog is the ego in action. The ego is so deceptive it can “see” whatever it wants and the ego really, really, really, wants to be known for knowing (that is the definition of intellectualism). The ego convinces itself it is special for it can see what others cannot see.

Why does the ego want to be so special? Another topic for another time (kind of). ACIM dives deep into that one.

You and I cannot see our egotistical actions on this blog but I suspect everyone reading our words see our motives clearly. Easier to see other’s egos than our own.

Please forgive me for being so harsh. Wish I could write these words in a less harsh manner. Still learning. Whoops no learning in your beliefs.

Once the human mind convinces itself it has discovered TRUTH it becomes like a racehorse with blinders on. The horse (mind) only sees what the rider (ego) wants it to see. It becomes too painful for the ego to see outside its perceived “truth”. The best term I have found for this phenomenon is paradigm paralysis.

These blinders are so constrictive that no new information that challenges the ego’s existing “truth” is allowed into the realm of the mind in this incarnation. One exception being a significant emotional event can sometimes jar the ego from its perceived and very protected truths. This phenomenon is easiest to see in atheism, Darwinism, politics, and especially in religious beliefs.

My truth becomes thee truth (religion). Some folks can even convince themselves they are God (pure awareness) even when they have the power and wisdom of the human mind with all its ignorance and egotistical outlook on life.

But without that ignorance and ego there is no expression of pure awareness. That is the interesting aspect of ignorance.

William,

There is advaita (non-duality)... and then there is the concepts and the beliefs ABOUT advaita.

So far, you have repeatedly focused on and concerned yourself only with your concepts and beliefs ABOUT advaita and "advaita types", rather than the reality of advaita (non-duality) itself.

You talk about psychic mediums and the "beyond", and astral planes etc
You also make a generalization of and about what you call "advaita types", but that really says far more about your own dualistic vision and concepts, and very little or nothing about Self-knowledge and non-duality and other peoples understanding.


William,

Harsh? I didn't even know what you said was harsh until you said so. No offense taken, but I will say in response that it appears your words and criticisms are mirroring your own state, not mine. I hope that wasn't too harsh.

I have no personal axe to grind. For what? To impress four or five anonymous people?..no, I just find myself on this blog as a break from business that I do. A little hobby within another hobby within another hobby. Ah, what a life!

Now, I suggested you try to find your soul. Have you found it yet? What does it look like? What are its boundaries? Where does it begin and end?

What absolute knowledge do you imagine to be available at the end of this journey you say we're on that was not available at the start? Perhaps if the Absolute is not absolute it would be different then than now? When would 'then' occur? Then what?

William wrote:

"Life and god will remain a basket of paradoxes to our ignorant (unaware) soul until we “ return” to that everything which we call no thing but only to our ignorant state of consciousness as we lack pure awareness."

-- There is no such "ignorant (unaware) soul". The Atman is awareness. Only the mind is ignorance and duality.


"what is never born or never dies is spirit. What was manifested as a perceived entity can best be described as a soul." Spirit expresses itself through souls that are felt by each individual soul as a separate entity."

-- "Spirit", "soul", "souls", "individual soul", etc etc are merely words and concepts - mind and duality.


"That is why people sign their names as identifiers."

-- Identifying personal names have nothing to do with the reality of the Atman.


"In loving a part you love the whole; in desiring a part you desire the whole; in comprehending a part you comprehend the whole; and in despising a part you despise the whole.”"

-- Those statements are incorrect. The so-called "part" is but the illusion born of duality. There is only the Whole.


"To deny the journey is to deny experiences."

-- Experiences are all conditional. Experiences are merely superficial and transitory, and are not the underlying reality itself.


"Each experience has value and meaning."

-- Or so it seems... but "value and meaning" only exists within the duality of mind.


"It is positive ignorance in the highest order to state all is a dream when we still talk in paradoxes. Paradoxes exist for those that lack perfect awareness."

-- Paradox is nothing but duality. You see paradox because of not comprehending or not realizing non-duality. No one has "lack" of awareness. Awareness is one's essential true nature. There is no "lack" of awareness for any living being.


"The reason one cannot see the journey is that person thinks because they have figured out that god is oneness they think they now have learned all they need to know and understand the underlying reality"

-- Self-knowledge is not about 'figuring out' anything, or 'learning' anything. Nor is it about "god is oneness" as you seem to think.


"To see at least intellectually that god is oneness well that is first grade stuff"

-- This statement is nothing but a projection of your own intellectual level and view - that "god is oneness". Moreover, such is not realization, it is not Self-knowledge.


"Long long phenomenal journey of learning ahead even for those that have figured out that god is oneness and that there is only here and now..."

-- Self-knowldge or realization has nothing to do with having "figured out" anything. "god is oneness" is merey an idea.


"The gap between intellectualism and intelligence is far and wide."

-- Incorrect. Intellectualism is related to intelligence. On the other hand, Self-knowledge is not intellect or intellectual knowledge.

---------------------------------


"The word stop here is very revealing as it is of the ego."

-- Nonsense. "Stop" is simply a word.


"The ego is so deceptive it can “see” whatever it wants and the ego really, really, really, wants to be known for knowing (that is the definition of intellectualism). The ego convinces itself it is special... Why does the ego want to be so special?"

-- That is entirely incorrect. The "ego" is merely a thought. It is nothing more than a fiction of the mind. Ego is imaginary, and therefore is not a conscious entity unto itself. Therefore, ego cannot "see", cannot "want", and cannot "convince itself" of anything. All of these ideas and notions of yours are also only merely thoughts, the duality of thge mind, and thus are indicative of absence of Self-knowledge.


"You and I cannot see our egotistical actions on this blog"

-- The ego is simply a fiction. It is imaginary. It is not a 'Doer'. Action is simply happening as a manifestation of the play of the three gunas, which are the three modes of material nature.


"Once the human mind convinces itself it has discovered TRUTH..."

-- The mind is only duality. Mind or duality can never discover "truth".


"It becomes too painful for the ego to see outside its perceived “truth”."

-- The cannot see or perceive anything. The ego is merely a thought. It is a fiction. It is not a knower. Atman (not ego) is the knower, the knowledge, and the known.


"These blinders are so constrictive that no new information that challenges the ego’s existing “truth” is allowed into the realm of the mind."

-- The so-called "blinders" are actually these very concepts that you have about ego etc and about the truth.


"a significant emotional event can sometimes jar the ego from its perceived and very protected truths."

-- The ego has no "truths". It is simply a thought, an imaginary idea, a fiction, an illusory reflection of the true Self.


"Some folks can even convince themselves they are God (pure awareness)"

-- Everyone is pure awareness, which is the Atman.


"without that ignorance and ego there is no expression of pure awareness."

-- Pure awareness has no "expression" or any need for expression. Pure awareness, the Atman, is unborn and self-luminous. It is the essential nature of all. "Expression" is something which only appears within the duality of the mind.


Soul Man
- by Sam and Dave

"Coming to you, on a dusty road
Good loving, I got a truck load
And when you get it, you got something
So don't worry, 'cause I'm coming
I'm a soul man, I'm a soul man
I'm a soul man, I'm a soul man

Got what I got, the hard way
And I'll make better, each and every day
So honey, hey, don't you fret
'cause you ain't seen nothing yet
I'm a soul man, I'm a soul man
I'm a soul man, I'm a soul man

I was brought up, on a side street
Learned how to love, before I could eat
Hey, I was educated, from good, good stock
When I start loving I just can't stop
I'm a soul man, I'm a soul man
I'm a soul man, I'm a soul man

Grab the rope, and I'll pull you in
Give you hope, and be your only boyfriend
Ya, ya ya ya!
I'm a soul man, I'm a soul man"


When beliefs become a religion

Toe your statements are either very very naïve which I doubt or your cherished beliefs have become a religion which appears to be so. Examples of this are:

The Christians believe that Jesus died for their sins with most Christians never knowing the original meaning of the word sin.

The Muslims believe if you fly through tall buildings, “yell god is great,” and kill lots of those that do not agree with your beliefs then you go to heaven and have 72 virgins waiting to satisfy your every need.

The Jews believe that they are God’s chosen people.

The Hindus worship a god with an elephant head and four arms.

The Buddhists believe in rebirth but no soul.

The atheists have made their god science. Some have even made Google their god.

The capitalists have made their god wealth generation.

The Darwinists believe we are here by chance occurrences and their religion has enough gaps in their theories that they now call facts that one could drive an aircraft carrier through them. But their minds cannot see those gaps just as toe’s mind thinks it is pure awareness without having any idea what pure awareness is. At the human level we are not even in the ballpark of that knowing beyond knowing that the Buddhist talk about.

The demos and repubs have turned their ideologies into a religion.

When “one’s beliefs become thee beliefs” it qualifies as a religion. The challenge is to become an observer and watch these phenomena occur.

It would be interesting to experience what those intelligence entities see when they fly around our earth in our terms UFO’s and observe our phenomena. I suspect they would view us as we view monkeys or maybe even as we view ants in an anthill. We may be a master thesis to them but who knows maybe we only rate as a kindergarten project.

Anyone that thinks they have attainted or are that they are living in a pure awareness state has achieved the highest of delusional states. It appears that the mystics may get a glimpse of it and they tell us it is bliss beyond words.

toe writes:

-- The ego has no "truths". It is simply a thought, an imaginary idea, a fiction, an illusory reflection of the true Self.

Wout it be possible to be more precise:

In what sense does the ego is simply a thought?
What distinguish a 'egoic' thought from a 'non-egoic' thought?
Does that mean that the unconscious (whether we consider that of the western psychology or more profound views of the ontological status of the Unconcious ...) entirely free from any 'egoitic' dynamism?

What is the ego according to you?
What do you understand by illusion?

Thank you,


William has been influenced by superior space being theories. He believes that we lowly humans are just insignificant ants in the great progression of consciousness to some lofty, unimaginable, incomprehensible status that we, as humans, lack the faculty to perceive. He says we have a long way to go through many lifetimes of learning and growth to reach this, whatever it is.

Yeah, it could appear that way in the manifestation of your dream, but your true nature is none of that. Forget all concepts, ideas and phenomena. In clarity it is seen that the whole universe of universes, every facet and corner, every possibility and appearance, the worst, the best, the kind, the cruel is created by your mind as the dream of life. But the reality is that what you really are is none of this but the perceiving of it. This perceiving is already present whether you are the ant or the soaring space being with the entire cosmos contained in its awareness. Where else could it be? There? Where is there? When you are there, there is here. You are always here wherever you are. When would you be anywhere or anything other than this presence. When would this 'when' be? 600 trillion to the tenth power years from now? Or would that just be the beginning? Even when you finally got there it would then be now. Now is always now. Be.. here.. now. This is it, and IT has no separate existence from you. You can't get to IT because you are IT. If you keep projecting IT as some goal to get to or some awareness to reach you will never get there like the mule trying to reach the carrot dangling in front of it. A dog chasing its tail. The eye trying to see itself.

This may be frustrating because you expect it to be some explosive event, a cosmic happening of infinite proportion. But, it is so simple and obvious it is not recognized as this presence we are always in. All it is is presence. We are fooled by the ever-changing content of presence and get lost in the dream. We think we are the character in the play of life, but it is just another appearance in the dream, a reference point only that has no real substance. All beings are reference points reflecting you to yourself like infinite images seen in two mirrors facing each other. It's really rather cool.

William,

I see now that after all has been said, you really do not get it at all. You have your proverbial 'head up your ass'. You are just not listening (reading) and hearing, and so consequently you are not comprehending. Because you are so fixated upon your quirky quasi new-age evolutionary ideas and dualistic projections.

This has become somewhat frustrating for others because you have consistently, and maybe even deliberately, misinterpreted most of what myself and others have written and attempted to explain to you. So it has become clear to me that, for you, it is all just a little one-up game. It appears that you are not interested in understanding nondual Self-knowledge. And you foolishly believe that all these convoluted ideas, dualistic beliefs and influences, and other new-age nonsense that you have acquired from psychic mediums etc etc, are more "enlightened" than nondual Self-realization, Self-knowledge, Atma-jnana. This is ridiculous, and it has now become obvious (to me at least) that you lack any genuine direct experience of Self-knowledge, or even any basic understanding of what that is.

I have already written much on this topic of Self-knowledge before you ever came to this forum, and Tucson has also done a exceptionally fine job articulating it to you in the past recent weeks and months. But it is now clear that you are not listening at all. Your head appears to be so filled with dualistic intellectual presumptions, mental speculations, new-age psychic influences etc, that you are incapable of hearing what is being related to you by Brian, Tucson Bob, myself and others.

Here is some more evidence of this kind of thing, where you have said:

"Toe your statements are either very very naïve which I doubt or your cherished beliefs have become a religion which appears to be so."

-- Your statment reveals your ignorance. I have no such "beliefs" or any "religion". Self-knowledge, Atma-jnana, is not belief or religion. It is only tacit realization.

You then went on to list various examples of religious myths and beliefs, including atheism etc,... which is all ridiculous because none of that has any similarity whatsoever to the awakening or tacit realization of/into Self-knowledge.

You also went on to criticise ecomomic capitalism, as well as the theory of evolution. That's downright lame and ignorant of you.

You have also written: "just as toe’s mind thinks it is pure awareness without having any idea what pure awareness is."

-- I don't "think" any such thing. I know directly and with utmost certainty the simple truth that pure awareness is the essential nature of all living beings. And so it is also clear considering what you have said here and elsewhere, that you William, really have no idea what you are talking about. You apparently have no realization of Self-knowledge, but merely a confused collection of ideas and beliefs. It is obvious that your mind is full of fancy ideas, dualistic presumptions, and illusions.


You talked about "knowing beyond knowing that the Buddhist talk about", but you have no idea what that actually means. It simply means transcendent Self-knowledge.

As Tucson pointed out, you presume that Self-knowledge is somehow far off and unreacheable. It is rather sad how blind and closed-minded and dogmatic you really are, and how lacking in the orientation of Self-inquiry. You are full of all sorts of abstract notions, ideas, and beliefs, but you clearly have virtually no understanding of your own true nature as pure awareness.

You said: "When “one’s beliefs become thee beliefs” it qualifies as a religion."

-- That pretty much describes your mentality.

William also wrote: "...those intelligence entities see when they fly around our earth in our terms UFO’s and observe our phenomena. I suspect they would view us as we view monkeys or maybe even as we view ants in an anthill."

-- Regarding the above absurdly irrelevant nonsense, I must agree with what Tucson has so aptly stated: "William has been influenced by superior space being theories. He believes that we lowly humans are just insignificant ants in the great progression of consciousness to some lofty, unimaginable, incomprehensible status that we, as humans, lack the faculty to perceive. He says we have a long way to go through many lifetimes of learning and growth to reach this, whatever it is."

William goes on to say: "Anyone that thinks they have attainted or are that they are living in a pure awareness state has achieved the highest of delusional states."

-- Again, this clearly indicates that you have no comprehension of the innate nature of living beings - which is pure awareness or primordial awareness. It is clearly William who is delusional". And btw, Self-knowledge has nothing to do with so-called 'thinking' that one has "attained". Self-knowledge is tacit direct realization, abidance in/as atma-jnana. So to put it bluntly, you are full of shit William.

William finally wrote: "the mystics may get a glimpse of it and they tell us it is bliss beyond words."

-- Apparently you are not among those who have realized this state. This is apparent from almost everything you have written so far. So how would you know? ... The fact is obvious that you don't know, and so you have no such direct experience of your own. And you also do not even have any general understanding of the basic orientation of Self-inquiry leading to Self-knowledge. You are simply lost in the duality of maya and perpetual mental speculation.

To the elephant:

I wrote: "The ego has no "truths". It is simply a thought, an imaginary idea, a fiction, an illusory reflection of the true Self."

You then asked:

"In what sense does the ego is simply a thought?

-- "I" is a thought. It is the fundamental or root thought. And "I" is also a word, but first it originates as a thought.


"What distinguish a 'egoic' thought from a 'non-egoic' thought?"

I did not say or infer "egoic thought" versus "non-egoic thought". I said the ego is a thought, a fiction. The ego is simply the primal "I" thought. Other thoughts stem from the root "I" thought.


"Does that mean that the unconscious (whether we consider that of the western psychology or more profound views of the ontological status of the Unconcious ...) entirely free from any 'egoitic' dynamism?"

-- I am not sure what you mean. Thoughts occur in the dreaming state as well as in the waking state. The "unconscious" is an idea. There really is no such thing as un-consicous (except if you mean being sedated as being "unconscious"). But there is still consciousness in all states... In the deep dreamless state, in the dreaming state, and in normal waking state, and in the super-conscious state.


"What is the ego according to you?"

-- Apparently you are not paying attention. I have already related that to begin with. The ego is merely a thought. The primal thought. It is a fiction, an illusion. It is a reflection of the true Self - the Atman, in the mind.


"What do you understand by illusion?"

-- Illusion is that which is but appearence only, that which is not real, and that which is transitory. Just as when the sun or the moon casts a reflection upon the surface of a lake is not actually the sun or the moon itself, but is merely an illusion that the sun or the moon is there in the water of the lake. Similarly, the ego is but an illusory reflection of the Atman, the true Self.


tau: "It is the fundamental or root thought"

But what makes that root "I" thought fundamental with respect to the other thoughts? I understand what 'root' means in many practical contexts but regarding a thought I am not sure what you mean ... Being a reflection of the True Self?! Such answer is quite vague for the slow mind that I am ...

Also, could you clarify what you mean by thought, and idea? As far as know, there is no consensus regarding 'what is a thought, or what is pointed to by the expression 'thought'? though none denies them as experiences, or actualities, ...

tau: "I am not sure what you mean"
As Maurice Frydman in "I AM THAT", translating Niz's discussions, I make a distinction between consciousness and Awareness. So yes, I consider someone who is sedated as 'unconscious' but that statement does not entail anything regarding Awareness.

tau: "Apparently you are not paying attention." The slow mind that I am would never dare to imagine that its inertia is a problem ...
It is just that I did not, and still not, really know what you mean by thought, or idea; or even fiction**1 for that matter. I am sorry for not asking. So to be repeated once again that the ego is a thought, a fiction was never really helpful ...

Thanks.


**1
There are so many things that can imagined surrounding the moon/lake metaphor, as so many other metaphors, that I would not even try to infer what you mean by fiction.

elephant said: "But what makes that root "I" thought fundamental with respect to the other thoughts?"

-- The "I" thought is the point of reference for all other thoughts.


"Being a reflection of the True Self?! Such answer is quite vague"

-- The I-thought or aham-vritti is the reflection of the light of the Self in the mind.

"could you clarify what you mean by thought, and idea? As far as know, there is no consensus regarding 'what is a thought, or what is pointed to by the expression 'thought'?"

-- No consensus you say? On the contrary. Apparently you are not familiar with the Yoga system or of Kashmir Shaivism, among other philosophy and esoteric knowledge. Thought is understood and regarded as being 'vritti', which means waves or subtle vibration in the mental or causal body.


"It is just that I did not, and still not, really know what you mean by thought, or idea; or even fiction for that matter."

-- Thoughts are 'vrittis' or waves in the mind, the mental/causal body. "Idea" means a concept. A concept is a thought or a conglomeration of thoughts.


"...that the ego is a thought, a fiction was never really helpful. There are so many things that can imagined surrounding the moon/lake metaphor, as so many other metaphors, that I would not even try to infer what you mean by fiction."

-- The moon & lake metaphor depicts the image of the ego as being like a reflection rather than a fiction. However, the ego is a fiction because it is merely like a reflection, nand not the real thing, the Atman, the Self. The ego as a fiction simply means that the ego or I-thought is like an imposter, like a false or reflected image of the true Self - the Atman.


Thank you very much tao for your explanations.

Some of it is a little bit too tautological for me since I don't know what the newly introduced concepts mean in general -- and in particular for you. I may try to do my own research regarding them since I do not wish to take more of your time.

tao: "No consensus you say? On the contrary. Apparently you are not familiar with the Yoga system or of Kashmir Shaivism, among other philosophy and esoteric knowledge. Thought is understood and regarded as being 'vritti', which means waves or subtle vibration in the mental or causal body."

I was implicitly imagining a broader consensus not the myriads of particular consensus - like the one between my mother and I that I am the best son ever. I was simply trying to elicit the fact that there a manifold of schools (such as the Kashmir Shaivism), groups, individuals, etc. that disagree. Some naturalistics and materialistic philosophers, whether right or not, would disagree with some of the views believed by others who espousse a school of thought belonging to, lets say, the "Yoga system".

Thanks again.


Satsangs in the US are different than the ones in latin america, different than the ones in europe(and within european countries different still between themselves) and differ in Asia. I was recently in a Central America satsang and i wont name the country, but the satsang was a discussion between all ppl. Ive had the opt to visit many countries satsangs even though i dont go more than 5 times a year. On one ocation the subject was entities in Astral planes.


Question
How is US culture reflected in US satsangs?

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