RSSB’s strange fear of praise

What's wrong with telling someone "Good job"?

I can't think of any reason not to give out praise when congratulations are due. But religiously minded members of Radha Soami Satsang Beas sure did back in my RSSB speaking days.

I suspect that not much has changed. Which is too bad. Because spirituality should start from a base of being fully human.

That is, if we aren't engaging in the normal social niceties that bring people together and make everyday life flow more pleasantly, it's hard to see how we're on a path that leads to some sort of higher realization.

Quite a few years ago I remember being part of a panel that was advising satsang ("church") speakers at one of the periodic large RSSB gatherings. One of the organization's representatives said, "The worst thing anyone can do is congratulate a speaker after he or she has given a satsang." (satsang also means a talk, or sermon)

He explained that praise feeds the ego, so we shouldn't say anything even so simple as Thank you, I enjoyed your talk.

I disagreed. I told the group that if after years or decades of meditation a RSSB speaker is so easily influenced by a passing compliment, this is a pretty pitiful comment on the person's spiritual accomplishment, or lack thereof.

Good lord. Every day each of us gives and receives a lot of praise and blame. At work, at home, at school, on the highway ("Watch where you're going, you jerk!").

We should be able to let most of it roll off our backs without throwing us off balance. Especially if we claim to be following a spiritual practice, or path, that supposedly inculcates a feeling of detachment from worldly affairs.

Yet here was a high-ranking RSSB functionary telling initiates that they needed to walk on eggshells around satsang speakers, because a bit of praise could send their ego into a uncontrollable paroxysm of "Wow, I'm so great!"

Myself, I always enjoyed it when people came up to me after I gave a talk.

Some would have questions. Some would express their appreciation for my echoing their own feelings, because they didn't know that other initiates were as scientifically spiritually skeptical as they were. Some would take me to task for screwing up on some metaphysical or philosophical point.

Regardless, I liked the interchange. Person to person. Heart to heart. Mind to mind. Honest free-floating conversation, everybody saying what was true to them.

Like I said in a previous post, sat means truth. How can you have a genuine satsang if there isn't sat in both the speaker and the audience?

Being real – to me that's a big part of what spirituality, which really is nothing more than living life, is all about. Heck, maybe the only part.

"Thank you." "I didn't like what you said." "Here's where we differ." If that's what you feel, say it. Don't be afraid of being yourself.

There's nobody else you can be.

Comments

[Deepak Kamat]

Brian, You are quite right.

RSSB members tend to be artificial in their exhibition of false humility.

Feel-good factor is frowned down upon. You are supposed to be glum-faced and downcast. A cheerful nature is despised. A serious face is more liked.

Whenever I visit satsangs, I feel like attending a Church full of long-faced members where majority are mostly scared of the imposing Guru-figure.

The atmosphere in the satsang is usually one of awe and fear rather than love (as I think it should be).

In fact, these days, I am beginning to like Sri Sri Ravishankar (the Art of Living Guru) atleast for his non-seriousness and for emphasis on fun and let-go.

I am all for Wu Wei since my meditation has failed. You may say. The grapes are sour. Maybe. But I prefer to let go than do my two and half hours of meditation. To a large extent, I agree with Brian, though I can't shake off my RSSB past.
I was initiated in 2000 and had a mystic experience during the time of initiation. I clearly saw a beam of light emerge from the eyes of the Guru and it hit me on the third eye. (believe me, I am not joking).

Maybe, that is why I can't dismiss RSSB altogether. Maybe Sant Mat version 2.0 with its zen-like approach might correct the defects in RSSB. But old members are old members. They will never change. Only the new generation might save RSSB from its dogmatic past and strange thoughts.

All said and done, I am interested in real mystics -- not plastic yogis. Tell me, if there is one.

[Manjit]

Hello Deepak,

Sorry, am at work and have no time to respond more fully my friend.

In regards to Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, you may find this interesting:

http://guruphiliac.blogspot.com/search?q=ravi+shankar

[Sita]

Some satsangi's are holier than the pope so to say.
It is not about what others do,it's about what you do.
When you want cheerful open minded friends,brothers/sisters,start being that yourself,so that indeed others can benefit from that.
Be yourself with your joy and happiness,questions,doubds etc... and others will be more free too,as I see it.
It is silly to say and tell by the reps. what to say or not say to a satsangspeeker,just totaly silly.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

"BHULAN ANDER SUB KO, ABHUL GURU KARTAR!"
Everybody can be at fault, except the master.

There is no end to empty discussion. All those who love the God, love His creation as well, goes without saying.

Representatives can not replace the Master. Their only aim is to create the atmosphere of meditation and in fact they are doing their duty.

If patience does not evolve from a meditation, it shows the technique is not being followed properly.

Deepak, your condition looks like a fish taken out of water. Your experience is a common one which one experiences when concentration goes up for a very short span without actually attaining it. This concentration is not an earned one. You will be able to have more experiences once you attain a cetain level of concentration. Keep any non-stop and regular way of meditation and things will come at their own.

If not followed properly, things will go hey way.

Remember!rolling stone gathers no moss.

If you do not realize till date whether or not Master knows your progress. I do not see a very bright future in spiritual development. Your experience is due to grace of the master whosoever is He.

I lovingly advice you to proceed patiently.Early experiences are there to encourage us. One can always realize whether given experience is a false one or true.

with love

[Tucsn]

Rakesh wrote:

"Everybody can be at fault, except the master."

"...Master knows your progress."

--Rakesh, how do you know this?

[Sita]

Rakesh,how can a brother or sister satsangi say to a fellow satsangi that he doesn't see a bright progress spiritually speaking..??,because of this or that???
It bothers me,this kind of things,I mean who are we to judge??Tell someone else about their progress??
I mean.....

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Tucson,

"BHULAN ANDER SUB KO, ABHUL GURU KARTAR!" in english translation:
Everybody can be at fault, except the master.

This realization comes to a follower. I would never be able to express a realization in words.

Sita,

I take my words back entirely and regret, for I had sribbled them in a completely off mood when I found Deepak narrating his experience at several places in this blog.

I am sorry once again.

[Deepak Kamat]

Rakesh,

I deliberately put forth my experiences because I wanted to know what it was -- whether it is an isolated incident or a regular incident.

Is secrecy about inner experiences absolutely important? Is the conservative RSSB teaching valid? The five mansions ending at Sach Khand? Has anybody been there?

[Howard]

Brain, I think this shows how desperately people need a living master. Baba Ji does not espouse this anal, uptight, inhuman way of relating to people that many initiates exhibit. To my recollection Charan Singh did not deny his our our humaniyt. People read those damn "holy books" (by the way, thanks for writing one of them and screwing everyone up even further), and start denying their humanity, natural joy, sexuality, feelings, natural ways of interacting, etc. I really don't know why these books are even published anymore except if you can't have access to a master then you need a book or two. Just as Charan Singh taught spirituality cannot be learned from books because books are inherently limited and subject to interpretation, these books lead people to act in a way that is decidedly inhuman and unspiritual. I wonder how much your holy book contributed to this?
I have a copy of about 100 letters that the Sawan Singh initiates mimeographed and passed around. This was the only holy book they had. These letters have not been redacted by RSSB and are very enlightening. None of the crap you are talkng about is in them, they are all about inner experiences and how to deal with and accept our humanity.
As I said in a previous post, I have been to satsangs given by Baba Ji that most assuredly would have put him off the list of approved speakers. He is usually so jovial and fully human that this alone practically disqualifies him from being a spokesman for most inititates.
RSSB is a world religion, and though the master is not dead he might as well be because people have so little meaningful contact with him. Instead we get lines of crap from representatives and "RSSB Officials" that contradict the teachings of not only RSSB teachers, but practically every teacher of spirituality.
I have heard that idiocy about not telling someone they did a good job giving a satsang and commenting to them. If a speaker does not hear something from the audience, how the hell are they supposed to know if they are being effective or how they can improve? This is common sense. Baba Ji has common sense but very few of his disciples do. Personally I think he should shut the whole damn thing down and admit that a path of the masters without access to the master is of little value. At least most Christians teach people to be joyful and thankful on a regular basis. They have as much contact with Christ as modern initiates have with the RSSB master.

[Sita]

Thanks Rakesh..

[Sita]

Yes even in the Dera,it is always the master far away.
For westerners he is a bit closer,but even then,it is sort of official.
When one has questions, there is limitit time to work them deeper out.
Well,only by meditation..(?)
What or who IS the master,one really can't know..but who really KNOWS who the master is.
WHO really did travel the travel up to Sach Khand.
I don't know anyone who did that,exept the master(?)
Well it is better to ''know/look in''ourselves.
To search within ourselves..make friendship with ourselves..

[Sita]

When we have friendship with our deeper self,maybe that is a sort of sach khand...
It all comes to Love...

[Deepak Kamat]

Sita, if Sach Khand is all about love, I think I better find a female. But true love is never made. It only happens. Should we go through the two and half hour grind.
So much confusion between seeking, achieving and letting-go. RSSB indeed has all the trappings of a cult.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

To Sita,

It has never been with me that I never got a reply of my querry written to the master. Right from Baba Sawan Singh's time, replies to letters are being sent. Master himself dictates the replies of selected uncommon letters. Ms. Prem Pasricha used to sign during Maharaj Charan singh's time. I still have a number of postcards with me which have been of great help in my life.

with regards

[Deepak Kamat]

Is it possible that GSD himself writes in this site through a pseudonym?

[Sita]

Hi dear Deepak and Rakesh,
It is not so easy for me to a:write in English not my motherlanguage,b:about a long process of being on the path right now.
I don't agree with Rakesh,in that way that being a follower, one KNOWS that the master is the only one who don't make faults..
I have been there too...but now these time I am not sure of anything anymore,including the master.
My master was Charan Singh,I was in total love with him and I stil do love him,as he was very important in my life and in lots of others lives.
BUT NOW,what a master is..I don't know,as I said before.
I still do meditation,sometimes nice and sometimes pfff,just do it..
Deepak what you feel is what you feel.
Nobody is telling you nor me what they see experience really in meditation.
I don't even know what my "beautiful beloved master"as I always felt it, REALLY was.
I am absolutely NOT SURE about him,right now after 40 years of sincere meditation bhakti,doing sewa, giving satsang,even a lot at times..(not now anymore,because of my doubds about master and teachings)
I try to believe in Love because I want that.
But what actually IS Love(?)
I do'nt mean only between husband and wife etc,but REAL love seeing it everywhere.
To make a long story very short,I was absolutely sure about the path and now I lost that,and that is lonely and difficult at times after such a long time..
I don't want to loose everything from the path so I don't..but..

The buddhists talk also about the circel of transmigration..but also that the way sant mat and buddhism talk about that,is a difficult idea for me.I am grown up with the karma idea,but the transmigration comming again and again(satsangi's are fortunate)in the circel..it is told without the telling WHY(?)Is cruwel,so when people are not initiated they have to go in the circel again and again..That souls can come back now and then,for some reason ok,but..

Sometimes I was also angry that the master didn't be more often and "normal"between his(to much)diciples.
But sigh..what can he do,he is also a human body who can't come everywhere soo..
I do it my way..my search,meditations,going to satsangs now and then.Love,Sita.
ps Rakesh,I also have still nice letters from maharaji.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

To Sita,

I have not written "the master is the only one who don't make faults..".

"BHULAN ANDER SUB KO, ABHUL GURU KARTAR!" is a verse in GuruGranth Saheb, the Holy book of Sikhs, and given below is its english translation:
Everybody can be at fault, except the master.

In spiritualism, love is essential and it acts like fuel to fire. It needs to be added to with care so as to prevent the fire from extinguishing. If it goes on without control, it may burn everything.

with love

[Sita]

Rakesh,what do you mean by what you say about love and fire and that it may burn everything?

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Dear Sita,

All I mean by it is that real love generates by attending to meditation with devotion. The duration of meditation is not important. If we do not have the atmosphere of attending to meditation with devotion that love never generates in us. This love is like fuel to fire if it is not added, the fire extinguishes. If it is added uncontrollably like one starts boasting of his little spiritual experiences, slowly - slowly the devotion starts vanishing from the meditation, as the concentration becomes difficult to go in through single eye. One starts expecting more and more experiences at the expense of concentration which does not crystallize due to lack of devotion. Ultimately the more and more time spent in meditation becomes an insipid experience. This so called love burns everything. One only has the nostalgia of his experiences in the remaining part of life.

I do not know whether I have been lucid enough to make my expression clear and tangible.

With love

[Sita]

Thank you Rakesh for trying to help,I feel that is what you want..
I think only a master knows what happens inside ,and I don't know where, and if he is there somewhere..
Sorry,but I really don't know..maybe it is scarry for some satsangi's,but if they have real faith,everyting will come alright for them.
I for myself have to just see what happens,I just hang out somewhere..

[Chris]

A request for the bloggers on this Web site. Please do not share your personal spiritual experiences. There are more stories of why we should not do this than why we should. It is possible to go through an entire life with doubts no matter how many books you have read, history tells us so. One would probably agree that God is always pleased with anyone who searches to be near to him even if that search is misdirected.

If negative is what you look for, that is what you will find. The beauty of the forest was diverted by the ugliness of some of its trees.

The RSSB Masters are the One!

[tao]

To Chris,

A request for the guilt-ridden satsangis on this blog site. Please do not try to supress others from sharing their spiritual experiences.

There are no reasons to try to inhibit people and keep them from discussing their own personal spiritual experiences. It is possible to go through an entire life without doubts no matter how anyone tries to guilt you.

Contrary to manipulative RSSB cult dogma, God is always pleased with anyone who does not try to suppress others sharing their personal experiences, but rather encourages them.

If inhibiting and suppressing others is what you look for, then that is what you will find for your own self.

The RSSB so-called "masters" are no masters at all. Only slaves talk of masters.

[tao]

To Chris,

A request for the guilt-ridden satsangis on this blog site. Please do not try to supress others from sharing their spiritual experiences.

There are no reasons to try to inhibit people and keep them from discussing their own personal spiritual experiences. It is possible to go through an entire life without doubts no matter how anyone tries to guilt you.

Contrary to manipulative RSSB cult dogma, God is always pleased with anyone who does not try to suppress others sharing their personal experiences, but rather encourages them.

If inhibiting and suppressing others is what you look for, then that is what you will find for your own self.

The RSSB so-called "masters" are no masters at all. Only slaves talk of masters.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Chris,

All care will be taken in future as suggested by you.

Thanks!

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Tao,

I have gone through your comments. It is well sifted. We can always forget about discussing RSSB masters. But we can always discuss master- disciple relationship, in general.

After all, the body of the master as well as pupil will not go beyond cremation ground.

Thanks for your comments once again.

[Deepak Kamat]

Well, I certainly hope that this blog is not like RSSB, which bars us from speaking our personal experiences.

I will certainly tell my personal experiences. NOt because I want to prove that I am a great man. But to see if there are others having similar experences. As they say "Birds of the same feather flock together". I would like make friends with others having similar experiences.

I believe that we are all co-travellers in the spiritual path. Some of us might fail. Some may succeed. Some may have little or no personal experienecs. Some may have a lot of personal experiences. Some may meditate for hours. Some may not be able to sit still even for minutes.

Just studying about them gives us insights which might as well change our lives. Even other's personal experiences gives us hopes about "Eminent possibilities".

I look forward to many true stories about meditation on this blog. I just need true stories and personal experienecs to keep up my faith.

[Deepak Kamat]

I have had an out of body experience only once for a few second. I was so scared that I stopped my meditation. Anybody having personal experiences of astral travel may mail me. My e-mail ID is: [email protected]

[Deepak Kamat]

Tao,

In all your years of active seeking, have you never had a spiritual experience. I don't understand why you criticize RSSB masters every now and then. The presence of the RSSB master is elevating. Atleast that is how I find it. Tao, have you never felt divine vibes with any other masters, if not RSSB?

[william]

Maybe the important variable here is the motivation behind the compliment.

I have noticed that the person that gives out lots of compliments often is the very same person that also gives lots of unsolicited you should do this or that advice.

The human ego loves compliments and workers have been kissing up to their bosses with compliments for thousands of years and it works.

The human ego is very, very vain. So vain our beliefs become our truths and we really get upset when someone does not buy into our truths. This phenomenon is easiest to see in ultra skeptics and evangels.

Compliments appear to be the least of my concern on this blog.

[Phreezzz]

Greetings to everyone. I only recently found this site, although I have read Gods Whisper, Creations Thunder and found it thought provoking. Thanks Brian for that, and for this site.
I was inititiated by Charan Singh, and have spent many years in total acceptance of RSSB teachings. I have been fortunate to spend more time than most in direct and close company with Baba Ji, including flights on private planes, breakfast and dinner with him in a very small group. During the many years of sewa, I sustained my conviction in the path by reminding myself that one cannot judge the teachings of any path by its followers, and so I continued to follow in every way possible. During and subsequent to the times I have been fortunate to have spent time with Baba Ji, I have seriously questioned whether to follow the path. For obvious reasons, I cannot relate quite personal experiences, although I agree with tao, this blog should not place restrictions on those who submit, I hope each will think carefully about the result of their posting, and the purpose for making such disclosures.
I no longer go to Satsang, but I spend more time now thinking about the path, the master, God, Creation, and perhaps more important to me, my purpose for being here.
WIth a strong scientific background, I am heartened to read such books as The God Theory by Bernhard Heisch, a scientist who has reached conclusions that almost directly echo the core teachings of Sant Mat.
I found this site because I am still very much a seeker, I want to know what I am meant to be doing here, the ultimate purpose, and while I feel the core teachings of Sant Mat are fundamentally correct, and while I accept that one cannot judge Sant Mat by the actions of its followers, I now find I do not have contact with the Master who inititiated me, I do not have the love or faith in current master, and so am now really seeking that course or path of practice to know God.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I suspect there are others in this same boat, although some posters appear to be attempting to place the restrictions of Sant Mat organization upon posters to this list, Brian, please keep this site open and free for others to express their thoughts and questions.

[tao]

To Rakesh,

Thanks, but I don't quite know what you meant to say by your comment: "We can always forget about
discussing RSSB masters. But we can always
discuss master-disciple relationship, in
general." I did not say anything about "discussing RSSB masters" or about "master-disciple relationship". I was addressing the tendency of some RS satsangis to try to supress and inhibit and guilt others from discussing spiritual and mediation experiences

------------------------------------

To the RS control freaks who come to this blog forum and try to tell others what they can and cannot discuss:

I simply do not agree with the folks who come here with their rigid RSSB dogma, and who try to control, suppress, and inhibit other commenters from discussing their own personal spiritual and meditation experiences. People have a God given right to speak freely and share whatever they choose. This notion that RS authoritarian dogma imposes upon naive satsangis by telling them that they should never discuss their personal spiritual and meditation experiences is totally wrong. It goes against freedom of mind and spirit. It is controlling, oppressive, and fear-based. It is narrow-minded and unenlightened. People are and must always be free to discuss or share anything they choose about themselves and their spiritual experiences and mediations.

To those fools who come to this blog forum and try to pass on their authoritarian brain-washing and guilt trip onto others, I say take your "don't do this and don't do that" crap right back to where you go it from. We definitely don't need or want that garbage here. This is not some RS site for RS ass-kissers and dogmatists. Brian calls this site "Church of the CHURCHLESS" for a good reason. Are you so stupid that you don't get that? So please go somehwere else with your oppressive RSSB dogma and suppressive control trip.

-----------------------------------

To Deepak,

It appears that you still don't get where I am coming from. I have not been involved in "years of active seeking". I am not a "seeker". I have not been any kind of seeker for almost four decades. Also, what makes you think that I have no "spiritual experience" ? Apparently you have not read many of my comments, or else you are not paying attention.

As for why I "criticize RSSB masters every now and then", whell the answer is simple: They deserve criticism. Anyone who allows themselves to be put up before the world as a "Sat-Guru" but who does not show any evidence of that at all, is therefore a charlatan and a fraud and deserves criticism. Just show me even one clear unmistakable indication that Santmat/RSSB cult leaders are enlightened/realized sages. And don't bother trying because you can't.

You said: "The presence of the RSSB master is elevating."

That may be true for you, but its only your personal point of view. I don't see anything "elevating" about false religious cult gurus. In fact, I find it to be just the opposite. But then I don't look to such cult so-called gurus for anything. Everything you need is already present in you.

You asked: "have you never felt divine vibes with any other masters, if not RSSB?"

I don't know what you mean by "divine vibes". I think you are caught up in romanticizing the esoteric and spiritual myth. The so-called "divine" is in yourSelf, not in "vibes". Don't be concerned with others. They have nothing to offer you. Simply discover and find out who YOU really are.

[Deepak Kamat]

Tao,

How can you judge whether a person is enlightened or not? Can you spell out reasons as to why the RS masters are not really masters at all.

Do you really think that the million followers are downright fools? obviously, there is some power at work. Else, an organisation cannot sustain for more than a century.

I know one of my friends -- an RSSB follower -- who was able to meditate for hours at a stretch without moving a muscle. He was a picture of humility. Just the day before he died, he handed over the key of his shop to his son stating that from "now on, it's yours". His son did not not understand why the keys were handed over because his father was quite healthy.
But, the next day, he died a quite death. Only then, did his son know the import of the message. He had seen his own death in advance.
I presume that the master might have given him an advance information because he was the perfect follower that I had ever seen.

I don't think this is possible without the grace of the Guru. The Guru may not be a person, but certainly the power is at work.

Go to Beas anyday, you will hear hundreds of stories. Even I never believed them. I believed them only after the death of my friend and of course after my 'little' spiritual experiences.

Let me also add, that such stories abound not just in Beas but also in several other spiritual organisations. These miracles are quite enough for me believe that there is some higher power working in Beas.

As for the ultimate truth, I really don't know. You can't dismiss RS masters so easily. You will only exhibit your own ignorance and prejudices.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Deepak,
My father also left his body when he was medically fit. He simply asked my mother for a bed sheet and spread it on the floor and lied down and said Radhasoami and next moment he was no more. In fact, he had already rehearsed the process of death by meditation.

But this incedence is surely a point of encouragement for meditation for me and for others it is a fascinating story.

Let us leave it to Him alone whose job it is to convince others whether to believe or not in God.

I NORMALLY SAY THAT IN ORDER TO ENCOURAGE OURSELF WE ENCOURAGE OTHERS.

with love

[Chris]

Dear Friends--

Churchless am I to brick, mortar and code.

Here is an adaptation of a saying of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. The entire passage reads, “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”

The meaning of the passage is disputed, but seems generally to be that the followers of Jesus should pass his message on to those most likely to accept it.

Generally, to “cast pearls before swine” is to share something of value with those who will not appreciate it.

Christ said, "Give not", for a reason. Consider trusting in that reason, that is all.

We all appear to be free to do and say.

With Love

[Sita]

Hi all,
I think it is a problem to doubd,because you belong not to the believers and also not to the exers.
Why is it such a problem that some people(I for instance)have doubds??
WHen being a satsangi,one should not have doubds..(sar bachan). at least one should not talk about that,because then you are a sort of outcast..not to all,but...
In Dera there was a satsanggiver who even said from the dais:''If one doubds the master, one has to be born again".
That is silly!!
I think that doubd can be a part of growing spiritually,or a phase,why can't one be honest about doubting without being humilating by some others,who know everything exactely??

[Tcsn]

Forgive me, Tao. I know this stuff is right up your alley, but I felt inspired to comment.

Deepak wrote:

"How can you judge whether a person is enlightened or not? Can you spell out reasons as to why the RS masters are not really masters at all."

--How can anyone judge whether a MASTER is enlightened or not? Can you spell out reasons why RS masters ARE really masters? Enlightenment, in my opinion, is just an idea, a concept or dream people think up about some state that is better than what is, right now. This is it. It is present now.

"Do you really think that the million followers are downright fools?"

--In a word..yes. Millions of rats followed the Pied Piper off the cliff.

"obviously, there is some power at work. Else, an organisation cannot sustain for more than a century."

--The Catholic Church has been around a lot longer than that.

"one of my friends -- an RSSB follower -- who was able to who was able to meditate for hours at a stretch without moving a muscle. He was a picture of humility."

--Did you watch him for hours to make sure he didn't move a muscle? That's pretty good discipline on your part. Humility is simply an attitude of mind, a personality trait that many people have, and long meditation takes self control, but these have nothing to do with Anami Purush which has no attribute or quality at all. This proves nothing.

"He had seen his own death in advance.
I presume that the master might have given him an advance information because he was the perfect follower that I had ever seen."

--Many people have premonitions about their impending death. This is not proof the master gave this information to him.

"he died a quite death."

--Again, so do many others who have no such master.

"certainly the power is at work."

--a power is at work, but how do you KNOW it is the master? Maybe it is the ghost of St. Augustine.

"Go to Beas anyday, you will hear hundreds of stories."

--Stories are stories. What do you know from your own experience?

"These miracles are quite enough for me believe that there is some higher power working in Beas."

--Maybe they are coincidences or phenomena you don't understand that you have chosen to interpret as miracles.

"As for the ultimate truth, I really don't know."

--So, how can you know the following...

"You can't dismiss RS masters so easily. You will only exhibit your own ignorance and prejudices."

--What if you are only exhibiting your own ignorance and prejudices?

Sorry Deepak. I don't mean to be unkind. These are just issues I think people should be honest with themselves about. If RS is the path for you after honest reflection, so be it.

over and out.

[Deepak Kamat]

Anyone who has brains has doubts. I have yet come across a doubtfree mind.

As for the fundamentalists, they are emotionally charged. However, given a chance to doubt, even they will change their mind.

Suppressing doubts only creates more doubts and fear. I don't know why RSSB history is against doubts. It is very much a part of man's personality.

But the new master seems to be different. He seems to be encouraging doubts. As clarification of doubts lead to more faith.

[Sita]

Suppressing doubts creates more doubts and FEAR.
The FEAR thing is terrible.
I have seen it,some are very fearful and that is also the reason,as I see it,that they don't want to talk or even think about doubt.
That doesn't make people open and understanding and emphatic and loving to oneanother,imo.

[Sita]

Well said Deepak,
That doubt is a part of man's personality.

[Deepak Kamat]

Dear TCSN,

Advaita is a Nirguna (formless) path. RSSB is a path of saguna bhakti (devotion in duality where the devotee worships the master).

The Guru-disciple tradition has been there in India since time immemorial. In fact, it was Sage Vyasa who first gave the concept of saguna bhakti (dual devotion) to the people at large. Guru Poornima (the day of the Guru) is in fact Vyasa's birthday.

In fact, saguna bhakti (positive devotion in form) is said to be infinitely superior to adwaita (where the approach is rather negative).

Even Charan Singh once said that devotion to the form culminates in devotion of the formless. There are cases where the disciple/devotee prays to be reborn again and again to be at the feet of the Master.

To be at the feet of the Master is said to be the highest ecstacy. It is said that even Ananda was enlightened only after Buddha's death because he was holding on to Buddha's form. However Buddha's death created an void for him which led to his realisation.

The problem with western seekers is that they have an excellent left brain and a deficient right brain. I am not blaming you. That is the nature of things. So in India, you will find people engaged in blind devotion and they are happy with it and they will continue with it even if they know that the master is a crook.

I agree with you when you say that we have to be honest with ourselves. The very fact that we are 'wasting' so much time at the Church of the Churchless only proves that we are honest. We want to know more and more about the path and beyond.

I may be wrong. The light that I saw may be an illusion. Maybe, it is not the RSSB masters but some other masters like St. Augustine who comes. Something is cooking at Beas. You just can't ignore it as another fraud.

[Manjit]

Hey Deepak, hope you are well.

There are some pretty funky tasting nans cooking at Beas, certainely. Hmmmm, just remembering them makes me verrrrryyyy hungry...

PS, Ananda got 'enlightened' when he gave up searching, if you recall the story fully. Not much really to do with Buddha's passing away. Kind of advaita like ;)

And, what's with the Islamaphobia? I know there's a lot of tension and violence in India over this issue (btw, I am a Sikh, and my uncles and cousins work in the Indian Air Force near the Pakistan border), but surely this is not the way of looking at things for a 'spiritual' seeker my friend?

Me? I'm with Rumi, Hafiz, Farid, Moinuddin Chisti, Kabir etc etc etc.....those who see our common humanity......:-)

Peace.

[Tcsn]

Deepak wrote:

"Advaita is a Nirguna (formless) path. RSSB is a path of saguna bhakti (devotion in duality where the devotee worships the master)...In fact, saguna bhakti (positive devotion in form) is said to be infinitely superior to adwaita (where the approach is rather negative)...Even Charan Singh once said that devotion to the form culminates in devotion of the formless."

--There are those who say the opposite, that the negative way is more direct than the positive because misleading dualistic concepts are stripped away. I don't doubt, however, that some have recognised the formless through devotion to form. It just seems rather round-about. To say "devotion to the formless" is to objectify that which has no form which gets you going on the wrong foot right from the start.

Anyway, kind regards.

[Deepak Kamat]

To Manjeet,

Islamophobia is a term coined by the left dominated media to fudge debates on extremist Islam.

As for Rumi, Hafiz, they are not really Muslims because they don't acknowledge Mohammed as the last prophet (which is the real problem). Also recall that Mansur was killed for declaring "An-I-Haq. I am god."

Read Rushdie, Pipes and Elst for an objective history of Islam. The entire thesis of Islam rests on once central piece : La Illaha Illilaha Mohammed Rasullah. (Allah is the only God and Mohammed is the only prophet). All those disagreeing are kafirs or dhimmis who have to be either killed or converted. At the most they can be tolerated as second or third class citizens.

The American historian Will Durant described Islamic rule in India as the "Bloodiest story in the history of mankind". It is. Muslim rulers tried their best to wipe out Hindu culture, when I mean to say Hindu I mean those religons of Indic origin including Sikh, Buddhists, Jains et al. They could not succeed because of stiff resistance from the Hindus and they realised they could not rule India without the help of the Hindus.

Even today, it is virtually impossible for Hindus to live near Islamic ghettoes. Either their womenfolks are targetted or the cows which the Hindus hold sacred are slaughtered. Even businesswise, their strategy is to overtrhow the Hindus.

From the point of Indian spirituality, Muslims belong to the "Tamas" category as their very lifestyle makes them aggressive.

If today, there are liberal Muslims it is more because of western and Hindu influence.

I don't have anything against Muslims as long as they have anything against me. But Islam exhorts the true believers to convert others by force with necessary.

I have read the Koran first hand. It is full of texts exhorting the infidels (read non-Muslims).

Islam has to be tackled on the ground level through violence as there is no other option. This is what happened in Gujarat. On the intellectual level, it has to be exposed as a medieval barbaric religion. There is no other way to stop Islamic terror.

islam does not recognise any other saints except Mohammed. While I appreciate Rumi, Hafiz, Kabir, the conservative Muslims consider them too as infidels.

[Chris]

Dear Friends,

Regarding the doubt comments made above:

Of course, doubts are normal to the human being. Doubts only vanish when they vanish. We should probably trust more than doubt, though. This way, we will get more of the good flowing in. It leaves you a little vulnerable at times when you trust, but it will also open us up to more good.

In general:
Trust is an Asset
Doubt is a Liability

Our attention should be more on trust!

With Love,

[tao]

Deepak,

Although I can no doubt certainly sympathize with your critical feelings towards certain aspects of Islam, I do have to disagree with your statement/translation:

"The entire thesis of Islam rests on once central piece: La Illaha Illilaha Mohammed Rasullah. (Allah is the only God and Mohammed is the only prophet)." --and-- "islam does not recognise any other saints except Mohammed."

In Islam, Mohammed (PBUH) is regarded as the being the last Prophet, not the "only prophet". Islam does not say that Mohammed (PBUH) is the ONLY Prophet. Islam recognises many other Prophets.

-----------------------------------

Chris,

Your comment is wrong (imo).

Doubt is a great tool of inquiry into truth. Trust is blind faith, which is lame from the start.

Doubt is a honest companion on the path. Trust is blindness leading into treachery.

Wisdom: Doubt everything and everyone, and trust nothing and no one.

[Tcsn]

Tao,
You've put Chris in a bind. If he accepts your wisdom, he will doubt it! ;)

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Tao,
Well said "Wisdom: Doubt everything and everyone, and trust nothing and no one."

But(imo)doubts onset the process of thinking. Resolution of doubts leads to trust.

Trust is a state of mind evolved with resolution of doubt and it is a temporary phase. Trust may sublimate if doubts pop up and remain unresolved.

Trust in a person or concept may remain for the entire life or a fraction of a time which is governed by the absence or presence of doubts.

You may doubt or trust my words!

[Chris]

There is much misunderstanding here, but that is okay.

That is correct Rakesh, resolution of doubts leads to trust.

Trust will ultimately take you much further than doubt. In the end, you will trust and that is where happiness lies.

If you invest too much in doubt, it will only lead to unhappiness. A healthy and happy relationship is built more on trust than doubt.

[Manjit]

Dear Deepak,

In my experience, 'Islamaphobia' is a very real thing, not just a term coined by leftist media to fudge debate? Anti-semitism is a term very often used to fudge debate, but that does not mean anti-semitism does not exist?

I'm not a particularly wise or clever person, and I'm not particularly inclined to debate this issue intellectually, but would like to say a few things. I too have read the Koran (English trans), I also grew up in an area & time in the UK where there was a lot of tension & violence between Sikhs & Muslims with most of my friends being amongst these violent Sikhs whilst also having several very close Muslim friends (to this day). I feel quite strongly about this issue, because it has been so close to me. And, I left my job today where I had worked closely with 2 Mulsims for over a year.

My point is, I just don't get the ignorance that humans display towards other humans. The hatred, animosity, fear, violence etc. The generalisations which deem it unworthy to treat each human being as an individual human being. To not only lump entire groups of human beings together, but also demonise them as individuals. This is a very sad state of affairs, and does not promote any kind of constructive communication and bridging of differences. Any decent therepautic professional who read your post would weep at the language structures you are using, as it leaves no room for reconciliation or understanding. Generalisation, ommissions, definitive statements etc.....no room for growth, greater understanding, HEALING to occur. This is the state of affairs throughout the world. Our fear creates irreconcilable differences, primarily one between our little identities and our compassionate hearts.

Having worked with a couple of Muslims and having had heated debates for months, having been condemned to hell on several occassions etc, I still consider them beautiful people. Beneath all the conceptual bullshit, the heart shines supreme in all humans, living beings. A smile and a laugh can diffuse the inanities of theological differences and reveal our common humanity. It is not only *some* Muslims who have covered their compassionate hearts with layers and layers of conceptual, theological, intellectual & idealogical dirt. It is people from all walks of life, religions, faiths or no-faiths.

As I say, I'm not a particularly wise or clever person, but in my experience, over and over again, beneath all the bullshit, our hearts are identical.

Peace.

[Chris]

Dear Friends,

We must work at overcoming our doubts.

Trust is a better tool of inquiry into truth than doubt. Doubt is blind ultimately because it does not allow us the opportunity to investigate something with all our hearts. At some point, when the time is right, pull the trigger and trust. When you trust, you give yourself wholeheartedly and this enables you to have more clarity. The only way to know something well is to jump in with both feet and that requires trust. We may think we have jumped in with both feet, but we have reservations in our minds and eventually those may play out. Half measures will avail us nothing. Doubt is one foot in and one foot out.

If we change our wisdom regarding doubt, we will feel better. Yes, that does require a little bruising of the ego along the way, but it may be well worth it. At some point, doubts will disappear and we will be free.

[tao]

Chris said:

"There is much misunderstanding here"

-- Please speak only for yourself. You say "misunderstanding"... but this is really only your own misunderstanding you are projecting onto others.

"resolution of doubts leads to trust"

-- Resolution of doubt results in no doubts, not in trust. Trust is faith, not resolution of doubt. Doubt leads to knowledge and truth. Doubt is a questioning mind, which is the path to knowledge and truth. But trust is like blind faith, so it is not not doubtless. Doubt is actually good. Trust, like faith, is blindness, which is not good.

"Trust will ultimately take you much further than doubt."

-- Incorrect. This is blindness. Trust is blind. Trust is static and takes one nowhere. Doubt is an inquiring mind, a questioning mind which takes one more toward truth.

"In the end, you will trust and that is where happiness lies."

-- Wrong again. "In the end" there will be knowledge and truth, and then trust will be unnecessary and pointless.

"invest too much in doubt, it will only lead to unhappiness."

-- Doubt leads to greater knowledge. Trust is static and unknowing. The happiness of trust is dependent on something, whereas doubt leading to knowledge brings happiness which is not dependent upon something else. Doubt leads one ultimately to true happiness.

"A healthy and happy relationship is built more on trust"

-- The issue is not relationship. The issue here is about what leads to clarity and to knowledge and to truth, and so thus to peace and happiness. Trust is only like blind faith, so it does not lead to real knowledge, to certitude, to truth, or to real peace. Trust and faith depends upon whatever one trusts in. However, doubt depends upon nothing. Doubt is the way to truth.

"We must work at overcoming our doubts."

-- Incorrect. Doubt will lead toward and ultimately result in certainty. Doubts are really our best friends. They help us to not settle for mere blind faith. Doubt represents an inquiring mind, a questioning mind, which leads one onwards toward the light of real knowledge and certitude.

"Trust is a better tool of inquiry into truth than doubt."

-- That's absolute rubbish and nonsense. Trust has nothing to do with inquiry. Trust is faith, not inquiry.

"Doubt is blind ultimately because it does not allow us the opportunity to investigate something with all our hearts."

-- More rubbish. On the contrary, it is trust that does not foster investigation. Doubt fosters investigation. Its obvious from your nonsense statements that you don't know what you are talking about. Your statments are indicative of someone who has no real knowledge or experience or wisdom.

"At some point, when the time is right, pull the trigger and trust."

-- Thats a blind gamble leading possibly to disaster. That advice is very poor and unwise.

"When you trust, you give yourself wholeheartedly and this enables you to have more clarity."

-- Clarity does NOT come from blind trust. Clarity only comes from awareness, inquiry, understanding, and knowledge.

"The only way to know something well is to jump in with both feet and that requires trust."

-- Rubbish. Blindness and trust never leads to knowledge.

"We may think we have jumped in with both feet, but ... Doubt is one foot in and one foot out."

-- Bullshit. Trust is to do as you say, to jump blindly. Doubt on the other hand, is to proceed cautiously and questioningly step by step. Slow and methodical always wins the race. Blind faith and trust are lame from the start.

"If we change our wisdom regarding doubt, we will feel better."

-- "Feeling better" is not the issue or the goal. Truth, real knowledge, is the goal. And btw, truth brings the best feeling of all.

"At some point, doubts will disappear and we will be free."

-- Doubt will disappear when real knowledge dawns, and not by trust, but by direct experience.

From everything you have said, it sounds like you are still very dependently oriented, and so you really belong back at the feet of your guru... until the day comes when you can proceed on your own.

[Chris]

Neither in this world nor elsewhere is there any happiness in store for him who always doubts.

-Bhagavad Gita( c. B.C. 400) Sanskrit Poem

Doubt is the beginning, not the end, of wisdom.

-George Iles No Bio Data

Better trust all and be deceived,. And weep that trust, and that deceiving, Than doubt one heart that, if believed, Had blessed one's life with true believing.

-Francis Anne Kemble( 1809-1893

Doubt is a pain too lonely to know that faith is his twin brother.

-Kahlil GibranNo Bio Data

Doubt, of whatever kind, can be ended by action alone.

-Thomas Carlyle( 1795-1881) Scottish Author and Philosopher

Thus, when the lamp that lighted The traveler at first goes out, He feels awhile benighted, And looks around in fear and doubt. But soon, the prospect clearing, By cloudless starlight on he treads, And thinks no lamp so cheering As that light which Heaven sheds.

-Thomas Moore.( 1779-1852) Irish Poet

If the Sun and Moon should doubt. They'd immediately Go out.

-William Blake( 1757-1828) English Poet and Artist

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.

-William Shakespeare( 1564-1616) English Dramatist and Poet

Doubt is the opposite of belief.

-Christian N. Bovee( 1820-1904) American Author and Editor

When you doubt, abstain.

-Zoroaster( B.C. 628?-551?) Persian Religious Leader-Founder of Zoroastrianism

We must go through doubts, but then let us get on with it.

-Chris (10/24/2007) No Bio

I think this is it...

[tao]

Doubt is indeed the beginning of Wisdom.
--and--
Doubt is indeed the opposite of Belief.

Many trust in mere belief. But others prefer the greater wisdom of doubt.

-- Thus sayeth Tao

[tao]

Doubt is indeed the beginning of Wisdom.
--and--
Doubt is indeed the opposite of Belief.

Many trust in mere belief. But others prefer the greater wisdom of doubt.

-- Thus sayeth Tao

[Deepak Kamat]

Dear Manjeet,

I don't have anything against Muslims who are as human as you and me or for that matter any other.

The problem is with the ideology of Islam. It is a very intolerant ideology.

If you can decondition the Muslims, nothing like it. But a Muslim with a strong Islamic conditioning is a barbarian.

And Muslims are brainwashed in jehad every week at the local masjid. In fact, Hinduism and Buddhism is open to doubt. Christians have had their renaissance and scientific temper. But a Muslim renaissance has not yet happened. Every protest is met with a fatwa.

Do read the Koran again on the ideal treatment which ought to be meted out to non-Muslims. It is a very intolerant ideology to use a mild language.

Islam has a bloody past and present. Nobody can deny it. To call a spade a spade is not fundamentalism.

Even a wild animal has a soul like you and me. But I would never stand face to face with a tiger or a cheetah. Ergo with Islam.

We can't dunk our head into the sand like an ostrich while pretending that the terror does not exist. It does.

As I said in the earlier comment, Muslims have to be educated against the ills of Islam. Only then Muslims can be better human beings.

Let's face it. It is an intolerant creed. It has to be seen as that. I can give you any number of verses in Koran and Hadiths to substantiate my claims.

Yes, even I have Muslim friends. But they are not serious about Islam.

There is a small story: A Muslim and Christian were neighbours in a town. They were the greatest of friends and were said to be models of communal harmony. One day, the local masjid issued a jehad call. Then the Muslim came to his Christian friend and said: "You are my best of friend. However, when it comes to jehad, I just can't help it". So saying he stabbed his friend.

So a Muslim without jehadi thinking is as human as you and me. With jehadi thinking, he is a devil.

In Bangladesh whenever riots take place: the jehadis rape the woman in front of their husbands, kill the man in the presence of their wives, kill children in the presence of their mothers. THese are devilish act to the extreme. The Hindus in Pakistan who compromised 25 percent of the population have now shrunk to 2 percent. The effects of terror are chilling.

[Sita]

One has doubts or not...
Everything comes from within.
How can one say to him/herself:''from now on I have faith".?
It doesn't work like that imo.
Faith and trust in what..,it depends also.
I see it so, that we can be open..maybe not ''doubt''maybe not ''faith''.
Just be open is maybe a solution,at least for me.
But the moment one has doubts, it is never good to tell that it stops progress or that one has to be "born again".
I mean that sort of things told by an old satsang sewadar doesn't give ''FAITH''.
It is not good to judge other people in their doubts,that is to easy!!

[Jack E.]

I know this is a philosophical blog, more concerned with matters eternal rather than politics, but I would like to say this:

I think Deepak is right on about Islam. He knows first hand what the jihadists are capable of and is under no illusions. There is no negotiation with people like this. In the name of Jihad it's all or nothing, and it is permissible to lie. Many people in the U.S. are ignorant or complacent about the scope of this mindset. 9-11 is becoming a distant memory and nothing major has happened in the U.S. since then, thanks to good intelligence, luck, and patience on the part of those who would do harm, but you can be sure jihadis are planning somewhere. This isn't over.

I happen to know someone who is highly positioned at the CDC (Centers for Disease Control). They are very concerned about the ease of a biological attack that could kill many people. The media focuses on the potential for "dirty bombs" and other explosive attacks, but you don't hear much about what insiders are more concerned about: microbes far more viable than anthrax. They don't even want to mention what they are, and I won't elaborate either. It is chilling to think someone with relatively modest technical ability could pull this off.

People may be liberal or conservative, gay or straight, religious or atheist, but national security should be something we all can unite on. Support candidates that understand this fundamentalist islamic threat. Talks, holding hands and "can't we all just get along" won't work. Iraq may have been a mistake, but we need to take it to the fanatics before they bring it to us. You can sit around and wait, or do something about it. That should continue to be our policy. On this, the current administration is right.

Now you can get back to whatever Ultimate Reality is. I have no idea what that could be, so I'm gone.

[Manjit]

Dear Jack,

Holding doesn't seem like a bad option to me.

What disturbs me so much points of view such as yours is the inability to self-reflect, to judge the inhumane horrors that are commited in our name under the banner of 'fighting terror'.

I see people who are similar in many, many ways that commit, condone or turn a blind eye to horrendous crimes of inhumanity. Some call themselves muslims, some call themselves americans.

I can only apologise to you for one thing, and that is I see no difference between those who turn a blind eye and even support the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children in Iraq ($ for what reason was that again? $), or the oppression and suffering of Palestinians, and those that turn a blind or support 'Islamic terrorists'.

I'm sorry about that. I weep for both sets of people, but can still feel compassion for their inner humanity deeply layered underneath fear and anger.

Maybe parts of one set of people, the muslims, see justification in 'terrorist' acts as self-preservation, perhaps their fear, and their idealogy makes it easier for them to justify inhumane acts?

Maybe parts of another set of people, Americans, see justification in the killing of exponentially more innocent muslims than Americans as acts of self-preservation, perhaps their fear, and their political idealogy makes it easier for them to justify inhumane acts?

The options are, demonise and kill each other, or understand each other and hold hands?

Endless war and killing and death doesn't seem like a great option to me.

But, Jack, I am perhaps not as naive as you consider me to be. (Biological warfare is not something for 'insiders' here in the UK, where political media & reporting is excellent, and at the forefront of unbiased info).

I don't particularly hold much hope for the 'holding hands' and talking and understanding each others *common humanity* (I think this is hard for some to comprehend?) strategy. Not much hope at all. Especially from what I read on the internet.

But you know, I think I was overcome with the old 'be the change you want to see' nonsense.

What a dufus I am!

Peace

[Chris]

Dear Sita and Friends--

Everyone is at a different stage regarding doubt, faith, belief and trust. The point is being obsessed with doubt and skepticism. This can become a disease. There is no judgment about someone having doubts. Doubts are a stepping-stone, naturally.

Here are some quotes again about doubt. Do with as you wish regarding what they have to say about it.

Neither in this world nor elsewhere is there any happiness in store for him who always doubts.

-Bhagavad Gita( c. B.C. 400) Sanskrit Poem

Doubt is the beginning, not the end, of wisdom.

-George Iles No Bio Data

Better trust all and be deceived,. And weep that trust, and that deceiving, Than doubt one heart that, if believed, Had blessed one's life with true believing.

-Francis Anne Kemble( 1809-1893

Doubt is a pain too lonely to know that faith is his twin brother.

-Kahlil GibranNo Bio Data

Doubt, of whatever kind, can be ended by action alone.

-Thomas Carlyle( 1795-1881) Scottish Author and Philosopher

Thus, when the lamp that lighted The traveler at first goes out, He feels awhile benighted, And looks around in fear and doubt. But soon, the prospect clearing, By cloudless starlight on he treads, And thinks no lamp so cheering As that light which Heaven sheds.

-Thomas Moore.( 1779-1852) Irish Poet

If the Sun and Moon should doubt. They'd immediately Go out.

-William Blake( 1757-1828) English Poet and Artist

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.

-William Shakespeare( 1564-1616) English Dramatist and Poet

Doubt is the opposite of belief.

-Christian N. Bovee( 1820-1904) American Author and Editor

When you doubt, abstain.

-Zoroaster( B.C. 628?-551?) Persian Religious Leader-Founder of Zoroastrianism
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

-King James Bible

With Love,

[Jack E.]

Manjit,

Thanks for your remarks. I can see you are thoughtful and not ideological in your views. However, I disagree.

I said that Iraq was a big mistake, but the concept of finding those who plot to do us harm, wherever they are, and killing them before they kill us is just common sense self defense.

By your statements I can conclude that you somehow think that the US military is just as evil as the terrorists. Kind of like the other side of the same coin of death and destruction.

The difference is that it is NOT the INTENT of the military as a matter of policy to harm innocent civilians. It is the INTENT of the terrorists, as a matter of policy, to harm innocent civilians.

War is always hell and when it breaks out, both sides will do what it takes to win, so innocent people will get hurt. Right or wrong, it's them or us. You take the pick.

The United States is basically a noble country with good intentions. There are assholes in the brew, no doubt, but the US on the whole stands more for freedom and human rights than most other countries, and there is no doubt that more charitable dollars, goods and services come from the US than any other country in the world.

[Jack E.]

Manjit, you say, "the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children in Iraq"

This is a lie if you are referring to what the US military has done. The actual number of people killed in Iraq since the start of the war is 50-80,000 depending on the source. Even if it is twice that many, it is not "hundreds" of thousands. You are getting information from US haters' propaganda. Keep in mind the actual death toll, regardless of the number, includes sectarian combatants, terrorists, jihadists, foreign fighters, insurgents and innocent civilians, most of whom have been killed by their fellow Iraqis. These people are killing each other. The number of innocent civilians killed by the US military is small by comparison to how many Iraqis are killed by their "own".

To say the US is killing humdreds of thousands is ignorant and absurd. It is not that kind of war. Isolated cells are located and attacked. The numbers are small..10 here, 25 there, 3 more someplace else. A meeting of terrorists is discovered through intelligence and a smart bomb is sent their way. 9 insurgent terrorists are wiped out, but the smart bomb is not a genius and 6 civilians are collateraly killed. 5 insurgents escape and occupy a house after killing the family. A squad is sent to "clean up". Locals, sympathetic to the insurgents, say all the people killed were innocent civilians and the US is responsible. This is how it happens. There have been some larger battles in past years, but by and large it's a cherry picking fight, not a mass bombing of civilian populations. This is how the war is being fought. It's shit, yes. But that's war.

You say, "I'm sorry about that. I weep for both sets of people, but can still feel compassion for their inner humanity deeply layered underneath fear and anger."

This is too bad that they are so deranged, but they want to kill. Should we sit around and let them kill because underneath their fear and anger is humanity? This is crazy logic, in my view. Go ahead and drive a loaded jumbo jet through a building full of more people. We understand. You're just a little upset. Let's talk it over at lunch and work it out. Come on. Get real.

You say holding hands is better than war. Of course it is, but have you tried to hold a fanatic jihadi's hand? He'll hold yours with one and cut your head off with the other by the grace of Allah.

I appologize to the host for straying from the theme of this blog.

[Sita]

Hi Chris,Maybe doubt is not a good word..
It's more about to be OPEN instead of say yes(!) to all sorts of DOGMA.
Openess has no dogma's no hard and fast rules.
I came to the point that I can't take just everyhing that is said..so that is my doubt,I doubt what lots of people say!!!!!!
Right now i see for myself what I believe or not.
Maybe there is faith nesserary, to ''dare'' to doubt things as well,hope you know what I mean.
The doctrine of satmat,I can't just believe that,but I don't throw away everything,how can I??...There is a lot of good in it and also a lot of Love.
Nobody can say that one SHOULD not doubt,AGAIN,it is there OR NOT.
When there is doubt,it never SHOULD be supressed,when not supressing it,there can grow something beautful so...it are all ways of going.
What others say is not just good for everyone..,
With Love,

[sapient]

I agree with Jack and Deepak completely. Fanaticism in Islam can not be dealt with holding hands. Terrorists (most of them are muslims or paired up with them)need to be wiped out as no medicine can cure this disease of ignorant blind faith.US and European world is new to Islam. These countries should learn from India and other south-asian countries for what happens if you tolerate and let Islam grow in your land.
Islamic Jehadis have the same old pattern: Either they penetrate a civilized society with force like Muhamad gazanvi and convert others with the force of sword Or if this doesn't work they take the shield of few civilized muslims and use them to showcase the softer side of Islam. Wherever they go, they start breaking law and try to force Islamic law.They don't know how to live peacefully with civilized world.

Check out the all recent conflicts in the world: underlying cause is Islam, whether it is Africa burning, Conflicts in France, Kashmir in India, Bangladesh, Issues in Paksistan. And these people are really good in propaganda. So anybody who is objecting to their barbaric acts, that group is already in their maligning list.

I have no sympathy towards Islam and their barbaric followers and I am really thankful to America who have taken action against the Jehadis and at least now people can talk about their barbarism and getting knowledge about it.

[sapient]

Any religious fanaticism leads to terrorism eventually. First case is Islam; and I haven't forgot Sikh terrorism in Indian state of Punjab. May be next in the line is RSSB terrorism. RSSB followers have already lost their humanity. They always treat non-satsangis like second grade people (like muslims treat others as kafirs) as they are the only chosen ones. Imagine the power of cult, what if RSSB have a guru who is insane and actually a fraud (TAU will say what do you mean, if they are actually a fraud:)), don't you think followers can kill anybody with his orders. I know this is my horrible imagination but this is what is happening in other cult like Islam :)

[TAO]

To Jack E.
(if he hasn't yet run off after his typical neo-con hit and run posts)

This is definitely an issue which I must address for the good of all.

First, I must say, to be very blunt, you are one very full of shit, brain-washed, and moronic sob. People like you are worse than nauseating with regards to the ignorant and misguided propaganda and garbage and lies that you leave around the internet like foul little turds of rat-shit.

You don't have a friggin clue as to what is really going on, do you? You obviously have not been paying any attention to the over-whelming evidence. But thats typical of lame-brain robots like you.

9/11 was not done by some rag-tag handfull of stupid moslem fanatics with box cutters. It was planned, set-up, and carried out by some very evil global elitist criminals and demons who see people like you as being nothing more than sheep to be enslaved, bled, and then led to the slaughter.

You (and those like you) are at best a foolish, misguided, and clueless idiot, and at worst a god-damned sick piece of human shit, and are a large part of the reason that this once great country (USA) is now on the verge of going down the toilet on its way to hell.

It ain't the damn moslem nuts that are out to get you nearly as much as those evil bastards in out midst in the halls of power who have already hijacked the USA and sold us down the river, are dismantling the Constitution as we speak, and are who are preparing to turn the USA into a third world nightmare, initiate WWIII, and finally eliminate a large portion of the global population as per their PNAC plan.

So I absolutely and utterly hate and abhor bastards like you. You troll around spouting your sick facist neo-con rhetoric, all the while blaming everything on some crazed moslem extremists.

You and others who think like you are by far some of the least informed douche-brains to ever find your way to the internet.

Don't tell me about war and terrorism and such. I've been there (to the Viet Nam War and to the Mddle East) and back, you stupid stinking little asshole. You have no damn idea what the fuck you are even talking about. You blindly believe all the lies that the war-mongers and corporate media liars sell to you. You have absolutely no idea what it is to be a patriot.

I could go on and on, but its enough to put sickos like you and your twisted bullshit in its place. Go back to the rat-hole wherever you came from, you lying cowardly jackass.

Do your fellow Americans and the whole world all a big favor and go inform and educate yourself before you take another stinking dump in this forum:

http://www.infowars.com

http://www.prisonplanet.com

http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/documentaries.php#war_on_terror

http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/documentaries.php#politics_government_corporate_conspiracy

http://www.911docs.net

http://www.911docs.net/iraq/

[Robert Paul Howard]

"Wisdom: Doubt everything and everyone, and trust nothing and no one." Including the one who calls himself tao.

Robert Paul Howard

[Jack E.]

Mr. Tao:

You don't mince words do you? I guess you haven't been to your therapist recently or you are off your meds.

I don't think a discussion with anyone as angry and paranoid as yourself would be productive.

I did look at the links you provided and they are, ironically, mostly twisted propaganda promoted and financed by people, such as billionaire George Soros, who would do exactly what you fear..undermine the fabric of this great country. It is worrisome that people buy into it.

[tao]

Jack E.

As I said, you don't have a clue. Your lame-ass remarks will get you nowhere. You are just another stupid uninformed asshole who fabricates and spreads lies and disinfo. Such as: Soros - who btw has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with any of the info or sources that I provided. (especially not www.infowars.com and www.prisonplanet.com) Just the fact that you have disingenuously attempted to falsely associate any of those sources with Soros, in itself reveals and proves that you don't know shit from shinola, as well as very likely being an outright dishonest and deliberate liar.

Furthermore, in less than one day, you could not possibly have viewed all the dozens upon dozens of videos that I provided links to, nor could you have covered/researched the quite extensive websites. Therfore, by your dishonest response you have have proven to be exactly what I said you are. You are a neo-con facist scumbag and perpetrator of lies and disinfo. Go back to hell where you belong you sick god-damned bastard.

You are certainly are not fooling me one iota, and I am quite sure that you're not fooling Brian the owner of this blog either. You don't belong on this forum with the sick garbage that you post. This is not a political disinfo forum for wannabe nazi neo-con scum-bags. This is a spiritual/philosophical blog forum. Don't bring your stinking rotten lies and demonic facist propaganda here. You are a sick mother-fucker and its written all over you and everything you say. People like you belong in prison or in a straight-jacket in a mental hospital.

And btw, I wouldn't take your poison pharmaceutical meds even if you paid me a million bucks (and I'm already a multi-millionaire anyway). Take your poison drugs and your hatred and bigotry and go back to hell where you belong you cowardly little twerp. And what the fuck have you done for this country anyway? I could smell your neo-con phony ass a mile away... as soon as I saw your first pathetic post.

So Jack, you're just a lousy jack-ass.

[tao]

RPH,

Is that your new mantra? It does appear that you've got a bit of broken record there old buddy. But do keep up that doubtful drumbeat. It'll take you far.

[Deepak Kamat]

Tao,

Remember that Islam is a political ideology masquerading as a religion. Many people mistake Kabir, Rumi, Hafiz and other sufi saints as Muslims.

They are horribly mistaken. The mazhars of Kabir and other sufi saints are mainly visited by Hindus in India. Pure Islam distances itself from the worship of any deity/saint except Allah and his last prophet.

I deliberately posted a comment on Islamic jehad because it was high time that we distinguished spiritual ideologies from the political.

I am in total agreement with Kabir, Rumi, Hafiz et al. However, I don't agree with the Islamic brand of spirituality which is nothing but a political ideology.

So, it is better that the distinction be made.

Awaiting your further posts.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Dear Tao,

I always love to read your responses to the post and comments.

I must say that you are the most simple person on this earth. From your vast knowledge, when you have provided the apt and appropriate links to a person and he/she refuses to read it, I think you job is over.

I will always love to read your well sifted and thoughtfull reponses minus those written in rage.I remember that in anger one writes faster than one thinks.

I do not know whether or not I can take the liberty to write this to you.

With kindest regards,

[Jack E.]

Mr. Tao:

Here is a cyber handkerchief to wipe the foam and spittle from your mouth. Get a grip. Since you don't like pharmaceuticals I would suggest a Bach flower extract called 'Rescue Remedy' which may help you to settle down a little bit.

Soros' funds trickle down through a good number of organizations sort of like a family tree, and it is surprising how far his agenda and influence reaches. You are correct about one thing. I am aware this is not a political blog and such debate is inappropriate here. So, I will desist after this comment.

I stumbled upon Deepak Kamat's comment on Islam and felt inspired to express my view. I notice that at least Sapient agreed with me. Islamic fanatics are a threat to stability in many regions. This is their goal and vision. They would like to see a breakdown in civilization which would be replaced by a world under Islamic Law. Many fanatics such as radical Islamists and Nazis blame the failures and social ills of their societies, and themselves, on others which helps them to justify their horrific actions upon totally innocent people.

[tao]

Rakesh,
Thanks for the kind thoughts and words dear brother.

-----------------------------------

Deepak,
I quite agree with you, and please know that I have never confused Sufism with Islamic fundamentlaist religious dogma. Many years ago, M.R. Bawa Muhaiyadeen who was one of my significant spiritual mentors was great a Sufi mystic.

-----------------------------------

Jack E,
You are dumber than I thought. Again, I could'nt care less about Soros. He has nothing to do with Alex Jones or the 9/11 Truth Movement.

As for the crazed Moslem extremists, there is no doubt, and I have no problem in agreeing that Islamic fanatics are indeed a threat on some levels. Relatively speaking. But don't be so naive or ignorant as to mix or associate that with 9/11. If you haven't done the research, then please do so before continuing to buy into the bullshit lies and goventment/media propaganda.

Also, the actions of this current rather evil and criminal and facistic neo-con admistration has more than provoked and exacerbated the Moslem extremist terrorist problem a thousand-fold from where it was only six or seven years ago. You can thank (or curse) the neocons and their puppet and wannabe dictators Bush & Cheney and gang for that. But these minority of (no doubt) troublesome Moslem fanatics are NOT the planners, not the orchestrators, and not the implementors of the super-rich globalist elite NWO police-state agenda; the PNAC (Project for a New American Century); the onslaught, erosion, and dismantling of the Constitution and Bill of Rights as well as Habeus Corpus; the flood of tens of millions of ILLEGAL aliens (who have no allegiance to the Constution or the USA) and who if not curtailed and deported, threaten the very foundation of the American way of life; the outrageously destructive influence that powerful corporate interests have upon government; and many other things too numerous to mention.

It is these very international banksters and facist criminals within the US government who are the very ones who try to "justify their horrific actions upon totally innocent people". Blame them, not the misguided Moslems.

[Jack E.]

Mr. Tao:

Thanks for toning things down a bit and just calling me "dumb". In light of what you called me before I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you.

I just can't believe people actually think 911 was some inside job by super rich neo-fascist NWO planners. Even if there is a plot by PNAC planners and super-rich global elites, it won't work. The tide of human relations is like the weather, the economy, or any individual's life span. There are just too many variables to predict and control.

Now, it appears we have an ice age impending and if that happens, everyone will just be stuggling to find something to eat. If there is a new world order, it's going to become disorderly real quick.

I think Cheney is anxious for his term to end, so he can relax for a year or two on his ranch before his bad heart gives out. He knows he's already on borrowed time, almost dead, and isn't interested in world dominion. He's just happy he wakes up in the morning and doesn't keel over while straining to take a crap.

That the govenment does nothing about the flood of illegal immigrants is bizarre and suspiscious. It could be stopped in literally one day, that's right..one day if there was the political will. Obviously corporate interests and politicians who want to keep their jobs are behind this insidious problem that, I agree, threatens the fabric of American life.

What do you do? People have been killing other people and screwing them up since times immemorial. Conflict and change are the only things you can depend on. Adapt, survive and live as best you can while you can. Don't look for trouble but don't take crap from anyone. Fight back and if you die, so what. You're doomed anyway. Achilles said in the movie, "what difference does it make if I die now or in 50 years?." In either case he'll be dead. An airline pilot once said to me, "Why be nervous about flying? The worst that can happen is you'll die. Everybody does that."
He was in a bad marriage though, which may have been affecting his attitude. Going up in flames in a ball of jet fuel is a tough way to go.

Live gladly and fully right now, for right now is all you have.

[tAo]

Jack wrote:

"I just can't believe people actually think 911 was some inside job by super rich neo-fascist NWO planners."

-- You obviously don't believe, and thats mainly because you haven't looked at the mountain of evidence, as well because you bought the lies and are in denial. You are just like the Jews who didn't get out of Germany before it was too late. You can remain in your narrow tunnel-vision and ignorance if you like, but sooner or later you will be faced with the reality of it and a very rude awakening. I am not interested in debating the issue with people like you whose minds are closed.

"Even if there is a plot by PNAC planners and super-rich global elites, it won't work."

-- "Won't work" you say? Now thats a joke. Where the hell have you been? It already is working. Its quite far along in fact. Just because you are blind and uninformed and kive in la-la-land does not change the reality.

"There are just too many variables to predict and control."

-- That statement is just another example of your lack of knowledge and the fantasy-world that you live in.

"it appears we have an ice age impending and if that happens, everyone will just be stuggling to find something to eat."

-- Man you are really lost. Its even worse than I suspected. You are seriously 'out to lunch' dude.

"If there is a new world order,"

-- "If" you say? ... You are one rather ignorant dude. Where the hell have you been the past 25 years?

"Cheney is anxious for his term to end, so he can relax for a year or two on his ranch before his bad .... and isn't interested in world dominion."

-- He is just a puppet, who follows and serves the agenda of those more powerful above him. It doesn't matter what he is or is not "interested in". This is far bigger than a fat little pig named Cheney, and is not new at all, but has been steadily progressing for at least a century. Albeit great strides have been effected over the past 45 years, and especially during the past seven years. But the groundwrrk was laid long ago.

You are just another typical example of someone who has no damn clue. I have seen and encountered scores of guys like you. You don't have anything to offer. You are simply flat-out uninformed and in serious denial. I have nothing more to say to guys like you. I already gave you ample credible sources to educate yourself with. But you won't do that because you are too stupid and narrow-minded and too brainwashed by the government lies and the mainstream media propaganda machine (which is totally owned and controlled by the global elite).

"Adapt, survive and live as best you can while you can."

-- I myself am leaving the country to live the rest of my good life in another more peaceful and abundant place where the shit won't ever hit the fan until long after I'm gone. I am not interested in living anywhere near the NWO's impending PNAC North-American-Union facist police-state nightmare.

"Don't look for trouble but don't take crap from anyone. Fight back and if you die, so what. You're doomed anyway."

-- Then how come you buy into all the crap?

I am not interested in dying in vain. Nor am I concerned with death. I have already embraced death more times than you can imagine. Death is not the issue for me, it is living life that matters.

"Live gladly and fully right now, for right now is all you have."

-- Well at least you got that one right.

[Jack E.]

I am not interested in debating the issue with people like you whose minds are closed.

..OK

-- Man you are really lost. Its even worse than I suspected. You are seriously 'out to lunch' dude.

...Why? You think it's global warming? Well, maybe short term. Past glaciations were preceded by brief periods of warming possibly caused by shifts in ocean currents and solar activity. The theory is this warming increased atmospheric humidity and storm activity even in the arctic and the ice sheets grew. If this happens, lunch will indeed be a serious matter.

At the shooting range about 15 years ago I was busy putting holes through plywood when one of the paranoid militias dressed in full camo gear piled out of their jeeps. These guys were very serious about an imminent takeover and were holed up off the grid up in the hills somewhere with other believers. They set up one those 50 cal. sniper rifles and were getting 2 inch groups at 250 meters. Very impressive. God have mercy on anyone trying to approach their compound because that was not the only trick up their sleeves, just the loudest. The thing is, they're still waiting for someone to shoot at.

[Chris]

Dear Sita--

I understand what you are saying. We all need to find our own way and I agree.

I appreciate you taking the time to write to me.

To be open, honest and willing, these are beautiful qualities.

With Love,

[tAo]

Jack,

Try viewing and listening carefully to this a few times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2Fc9aJPdUQ

[Jack E.]

Mr. Tao:
I think Mr. Jones is pretty clever to make a living controling some people's minds to think there is someone controling their minds. Maybe the ones who think others are being duped are the ones actually being duped? It can work both ways.

http://southerncrossreview.org/41/9-11.htm

[tAo]

Jack,

Fyi, I am well aware of the Popular Mechanics article, and it is garbage and deliberate disinfo. No one who has any sense or reason, or intelligencebuys that crap. Which is precisely why I find your drift to be very suspect. On the other hand, there is a virtual mountain of evidence to more than indicate that 911 was definitely not done by a mere few Arabs with box cutters. You just simply have not done sufficient research, or paid attention to the many who have. Your mind is closed. So there is no point in debating this.

[mysti]

Brian, in your initial post you said that you can't think of any reason not to give out praise when congratulations are due.

I can cite at least one very good reason. Praise and congratulations tend to build expectations in the mind, and if these expectations are not met, then we face disillusionment and possible resentment.

If I speak at a satsang, and afterwards a number of people tell me how good it was, how inspiring, how they gained new insight, etc, then my all-too-human mind will no doubt create expectations of a reward, either in substantive ways through recognition and respect as a good speaker and all that implies, or in spiritual ways through progress in meditation or improved karmas.

This may sound naïve, and you may feel this could not happen to you, but there are people to whom the response manifests in this way, and I am one of them.

In my early days on the path, I received abundant praise, and I know it helped fuel the illusion that I would reach Sach Kand in a very short period of time. Needless to say, such expectation remained unfulfilled, and I plunged into a deep abyss of imagined spiritual betrayal and confusion.

Even on a more mundane front, praise has indirectly undermined my best efforts in life. One or two well-wishers can be encouraging, but when you hear it dozens of times a day, you can’t help feeling that you deserve some kind of acknowledgement or rewards from the “universe”, and if that isn’t forthcoming, or even if the reverse happens and your endeavours are crushed by forces beyond your control, then you are worse off than if no-one had said word.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Mysti,

I agree with you 100%. Mind it, I am not praising you. But I must congratulate you for
divulging my latent feelings on the matter.

with regards,

[Sita]

What I want to say is, that that IS an aspect...!

[LB]

Note to Sita: acknowledgment and praise ARE "rewards"....you wanted further rewards, maybe a pay raise? (joke)

Compliments FEEL GOOD. I would suggest those who claim being complimented does not feel good are probably being a bit dishonest with themselves.

Come to think of it-- in this direction, maybe the issue is just that, feeling ill at ease with feeling pleasure with oneself at guru's table (so to say). Purity and pleasures....hummmm....is there something against feeling pleasure(s)?? do pleasure's come to pollute, make impure, the soul or something? Getting complimented can be a very heady and EXCITING thing, can make one flush ---feel quite happy. (The opposite, being rebuked can bring tears, kinda basic.)Is feeling pleasure with oneself at odds with having the guru at the center of ones attention and the speaker (or whatever) to be only a servant of the sangat. Maybe speakers feel ill at ease with sharing the floor, so to say. How much pleasure is legal, ya know, how many parts per million?

Secondly, is it not somewhat illogical to think that a nifty santsang would find reward perhaps through "progress in meditation and/or improved karmas"??? Don't recall hearing or reading anywhere in the literature any such notion.

Best wishes,

LB

[Anirudh Kumar Satsangi]

The universe was not born from a single concentrated point of energy. It was born from an infinite vast expanse of gravitational field or say it philosophically or religiously from an infinite sourse of spirituality. When the current of gravitational wave or prime spirituality descended down
it started creating various regions below it, initially of course of region of gravitational force or pure spirituality. Thereafter when the current further descended down it started creating regions of electromagnetic forces and further regions of weak and strong nuclear forces. Gravitation force is present everywhere in the universe but the matter (Weak and strong nuclear force) and electromagnetic forces are not. When the process of creation is reversed back, weak and strong nuclear force merged into electromagnetice force and electromagnetic force ultimately merged into gravitational force. Then only gravitational force remains and no traces of matter or electromagnetic force. This is how the cycle of universe continues.

[tAo]

yawn

[Adam]

double yawn