Religion, watch out for a grizzly bear with an EEG!

Sometimes I'm called a materialistic atheist by commenters on this blog, as if that's something bad. Or at least surprising, given my previous fervent commitment to the metaphysical theology of Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

But, hey, I've been talking about a grizzly bear with an EEG machine for a long time. Way back when I used to give satsangs ("sermons") to the faithful at RSSB meetings, this used to be one of my favorite thought experiments regarding the practice of meditation.

An EEG, or electroencephalograph, measures electrical activity in the brain. It's a crude way of testing brain function. Nowadays there are much more sophisticated approaches, such as functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI).

However, those machines are massive. I can't see a grizzly bear carrying one, no matter how strong the animal is. So I'll continue to have my bear cart around a plain old EEG, with electrodes that get plastered to a person's head.

Here's how I used to tell my tale.

There I am, walking through the woods, enjoying the wilderness. My enjoyment comes to an abrupt end when a grizzly bear appears on the trail ahead of me. Worse, he doesn't look to be in a good mood.

My brain scrambles to remember what the hell you're supposed to do when confronted by an out-of-sorts grizzly bear. "Um, with a cougar you stand your ground and try to look big and unafraid. With grizzly bears though, don't you curl up in a ball and play dead?"

Maybe. I don't know. Regardless, that's how my thought experiment plays out. I collapse to the ground, trying to look as dead as someone very much alive – and wanting to stay that way – is able to appear.

I shut my eyes. Reduce my breathing. Go limp.

I can hear the bear shuffling forward, grunting. It sounds confused. No attack so far. Things are looking up, if you can consider that playing dead while a grizzly bear ponders your eatability is anyway describable as "up."

Then…a click. A metallic click. What the #$%&*! could that be?

For a moment I imagine that it was the sound of a hunter cocking his gun. Then I'm remember that I'm in a wilderness area. No guns here. No hunters either. I'm on my own.

I can't stand it. I dare to half-open one eye. Thankfully the bear is turned away from me. He's occupied – with setting up an EEG machine.

Holy shit! Now I know I'm really, truly, deeply fucked! (I kept my language a bit cleaner when I included this story in one of my satsangs).

Just my luck – I'm playing dead next to a grizzly bear with a goddamn EEG machine! In a minute or two he's going to be putting electrodes on my head and monitoring my brain activity. If I think, "Don't think!" that'll appear as thinking. If I feel that I shouldn't be afraid, that'll appear as emotion.

So I've got to be as dead inside my head as I'm trying to look outwardly. A tough proposition. Real tough. Especially with the grizzly bear working like mad to set up his EEG machine. Not exactly a conducive situation for a super-calm meditation.

Well, that's the gist of my grizzly bear with an EEG tale. You're probably wondering, what's the point? Good question.

I wish I remembered what came next in my sermonizing. Then I'd have my devotional kind of answer. I seem to recall that I went on to talk about how meditation should be approached with the same got-to-do-this-just-right attitude that you'd have if a grizzly bear was about to attach EEG electrodes to your scalp.

You'd either slow down your brain activity pronto, or you'd soon be dead.

Today, though, I like this tale for a different reason. Now the grizzly isn't a bear to me, he's everything.

Nature, the universe, God, cyberspace, cold cereal, television, thinking, feeling, perceiving, not doing anything at all, dancing, blogging about grizzly bears with EEGs, whatever.

Everything that happens to us, everything that we experience, everything that we imagine, everything that we believe, everything that we know – all of that flows through our brains. Even if somehow there's something of us that isn't material, that thing (soul?) is bound to the brain.

Now, maybe you don't believe this. But that belief will show up on a brain scanner, believe me. So will everything else that you do or don't do in an attempt to show a neuroscientist that you aren't really your body, but immaterial "soul."

You'll get eaten alive by the grizzly bear of science. For sure. This doesn't mean that you aren't right. Or rather, that after you die you won't be able to note your still-alive consciousness and realize Yes, I knew it; I wasn't just my body, but something more.

Unfortunately, it'll be too late for you to convince the skeptical scientist who monitored your always-active brain while you were physically alive. Nor could you ever have convinced him or her. Because so long as you live with a brain, you're a material boy or girl, just like Madonna sang about.

Here's how the book I've been reading recently puts it:

We have also suggested that, as far as we can determine, all human experience eventually enters human awareness via the function of the brain. It certainly seems reasonable to reach the conclusion that the brain is the structure that gives all of us our thoughts, feelings, and experiences.

…The question again is how we can show that the brain is what mediates all of our experiences. This is where imaging studies lend a strong degree of empirical support…The conclusion to be drawn from this huge database of studies is that, at least for now, it seems that no matter what happens to us or what we do, there is a part of the brain that becomes activated.

…In approaching theology, it seems that any human religious or ritual experience is necessarily modulated by the brain. In fact, we have already begun studies to show the activity in the brain during profound meditation.

Who's afraid of the big bad bear? Not me. Not anymore.

I've got a brain. I'm alive. I meditate. I seek the truth of what both the cosmos and us are all about. All of that will show up on an EEG or fMRI machine.

Which doesn't bother me at all.

Comments

[william]

“Or at least surprising, given my previous fervent commitment to the metaphysical theology of Radha Soami Satsang Beas.”

Brian this is not surprising that one would become a materialist and an atheist after a fervent commitment to any religion. I believe a religion like Catholicism does the best job of all of creating atheists. Hitchens is a prime example of this.

One of the worst feelings in the world is to give someone your trust and then find that you have been duped. We have all been there and it hurts so I think we state to our subconscious minds “never again”. Atheism seems safe but it can be as much a religion as the others. Hence the name church of the churchless. One does not need a church to make ones beliefs a religion.

Look how open bloggers are on this blog to even read anything outside their cherished beliefs. They have decided their beliefs are thee beliefs hence they have turned their beliefs into a religion and anyone that states anything outside their cherished beliefs to protect themselves they label those statements as fantasies or they attack the creditability of the person making the statements. The rational mind shuts down when someone states anything outside our cherished beliefs.

Elephant accused you of participating with me with fantasies about mediums and spiritualism. He has joined that very popular condition known as paradigm paralysis, which we all have in our lives. It is a human condition used to protect us from the pain of challenging our established view of the world. We will protect our beliefs at all costs even to the point of attacking others and their mental capacity and going against what almost every religion teaches: love and compassion.

Something for you to listen to in your spare time. http://www.leslieflint.com/frederickolsenswf.htm

Watch how many consider this fantasy or fraud without ever doing their research into Leslie Flints mediumship. Fascinating to watch in action. Here come the attacks from well meaning people. Ignorance knows no bounds.

[the elephant]

"Elephant accused you of participating with me with fantasies about mediums and spiritualism."

William
I was talking about you not Brian ...

[william]

Elephant not sure I understand your message. Are all mediums participating in fantasies or is it fantasies in your mind that all personas are just really fantasies?

Either way your comments reveal your lack of knowledge about mediums at least some mediums as of course some were out and out frauds.

It appears that everyone has some abilities in psychic phenomena but there is much variation at the levels of their abilities.

As yet no one knows why some have greater abilities than others.

“The greatest skeptic concerning paranormal phenomena is invariably the man who knows the least about them.” H.H. Price

After six years of research into mediums and psychics this above statement by price rings true to all that have done the research and is heresy to the one that bases their remarks on hearsay and opinions.

Unless of course one goes into the research as an ultra skeptic (cynic) then all the research in the world is null and void.

Back to condition known as paradigm paralysis again.

May want to check out this fantasy: http://www.leslieflint.com/frederickolsenswf.htm

Leslie flint considered himself the most tested medium in history and no one to my knowledge knew were the voices were coming from unless of course we consider they were coming from different dimensions.

Maybe part of that 96% of that matter that scientists say exists but we cannot measure or see.

[Brian]

William, you don't seem to be understanding the point I've been making in recent posts. You seem to be locked into a world view that prevents you from seeing any other perspective.

One more try: even if ESP exists, even if mediums are for real, even if it's possible to touch divinity, these "metaphysical" experiences are occurring within and through the physical brain.

Do you agree that this is very probable, if not virtually certain? That is, if a person having such an experience were hooked up to a fMRI machine, there would be observable changes in brain activity?

If so, this isn't a metaphysical experience. It isn't proof that there is a reality entirely beyond the physical. Rather, it is proof that the physical brain is able to have non-local experiences outside of our everyday experience of time and space.

Do you understand what I'm saying? Your comments to my posts don't seem to indicate that. But I confess that my attention has been on land use/political matters here in Oregon recently, and I haven't been pondering blog comments as closely as I usually do.

[the elephant]

Dear William,
I may not have been clear in the post you referred to. Since it was meant as half-a-joke I won't go back and try to explain what I meant. Regarding, beliefs, lack of knowledge. If you go back to what I wrote - I never criticized you for your beliefs about ghosts, aliens, etc. I criticize you for the weakness of your evidence, logic and argumentation. And the fact that you never answered serious questions - you simply went into 'rant mode' about anything else beside the few questions that were asked.

That I find many of the evidence you referred to or linked to weak, vague, sketchy and feeble does not entail anything about their subject. It is not because an idiot writes a terrible book about ghosts or aliens that it means these things don't exist. I just don't know about these things. But this is not equivalent to say that they don't exist. Somehow your puny brain seems to have difficult (may a paralysis of some sort!) to process this distinction.
There is key difference between the two positions.

[william]

“That is, if a person having such an experience were hooked up to a fMRI machine, there would be observable changes in brain activity?”

Those type of mystical experiences you are discussing are very difficult to determine if they occur within the brain or the brain is just the receiver and yes indeed if the brain is the receiver and even if they occur wholly within the brain the mri would show different patterns in the brain.

Did you listen to the tape I sent you? Do your research on Leslie flint find out if anyone has ever found him to be a fraud or on Douglas Holmes or Lenora piper. Read the book no living person could have known it has the best of the best of people coming through with information that the medium or the sitter could not have known which rules out telepathy.

Also there is quit a bit of evidence that physical manifestations have occurred and been documented by some pretty impressive scientists. There has been so much fraud in the paranormal that most assume if one medium is fraud then all are fraud. Assumptions are poor excuses for research. Spiritualism has done the best and worst job of proving the persona lives on in another dimension but spiritualism has done the worst job by so much fraud especially when money became involved.

Until people quit trying to fix or enlighten William and do their research with something that approaches an open mind these discussions will go nowhere. The research is fascinating but one must approach with extreme caution as with any research.

When it comes to the paranormal most people have not done much if any research and many that do research set out with an agenda like the amazing Randi and of course his findings are always suspect. As he has proved himself to be a liar and a fraud just like the very things he accuses of mediums.

I had some email contact with randi on crop circles and to say his mind is shut down is an understatement. He claims that all crop circles are man made and people that do research on crop circles should instead collect stamps. He does not have the data to show that all crop circles or even a majority is man made. Indeed some are but as yet we do not know all are man made and until we do research is needed. Stated another way until he has the data to show that at least 95% are man made then we cannot say all crop circles are man made and further research is needed.

[william]

You want evidence read the book no living person could have known or listen to this tape http://www.leslieflint.com/frederickolsenswf.htm and others on Leslie flints website or study the mediumship of Douglas Holmes or Leona piper. You don’t want evidence you use that as an excuse to hang on to your cherished beliefs. That is an atheist trick that they use on a constant basis. Research takes time and interest and I find very few people with the time or interest to do research on the paranormal.

After you finish that research I have more recommendations. Lots of them.

Again and again you prove my statements correct. When someone introduces material that disagrees with someone’s cherished beliefs then we make statements like the following:
“Somehow your puny brain seems to have difficult (may a paralysis of some sort!) to process this distinction.”

My point has been it matters not if my statements are valid or invalid but what my point has been look at the responses I get. Defensive behavior. My beliefs are thee beliefs. Like attracts like even on the other side and it appears to even on the physical earth plane of existence.

You don’t see many Muslims, Christians, or Jews sitting in on each other’s religious services. As you don’t see many in this church of the churchless considering other points of view. Like attracts like. As above so below it appears. People on blogs like this one tend to put down religion when in reality religion conviction is everywhere. You don’t have to attend church to have religious conviction.

These remarks like “puny brain” are called attacks and they are of the ego and are based in doubt not confidence of ones cherished beliefs. The ego is very deceptive. Calling another person derogatory names is a way of projecting our own lack of self worth or esteem on to others. Much reflection is needed here elephant.

When we begin to see the influence the ego has over our ability to look at and respond to new incoming information that disagrees with our paradigm it is a painful experience and few want that mental pain it is easier to call people names. The religious call others heretics and the atheists attack the level of IQ of the person that challenges their cherished beliefs. In this case elephant you seem to fit in the atheist name-calling box with the puny brain remark.

[Tucson]

William,

I wonder if your main interest is more in paranormal, metaphysical phenomena or "Absolute Reality". I get the impression that you feel that these things somehow lead to undertanding what absolute reality is.

To little old me, crop circles, UFOs, psychics, mediums, toothpicks, sofas, meteorites and geometry teachers all fall into the category of phenomena, none of which have any more significance than the other as far as Absolute is concerned.

This not to say there is anything wrong with an interest in the paranormal, but it is misleading, in my opinion, to think that these phenomena are "spiritual" and understanding them will get you any closer to intuiting what absolutely is.

Imagine there were no UFO's, planets, stars, trees, psychics, earth, animals, others, ideas, thoughts, visions, or you. What remains? Would that be any more available at any other moment or circumstance than right now?

[tAo]

William doesn't get it because he doesn't pay attention to anything anyone says to him. He hasn't even a clue about what has been repeatedly communicated to him in various succinct ways by others. It's really rather... pathetic. He's basically all talk and no listen. I have concluded that it is futile and a waste of time to go further on a merry-go-round with him. He's like a broken record. He isn't listening because he is too intent upon playing his little role ala psychic mediums etc. He doesn't understand or speak the language of sages.

[the elephant]

Dear William:
I intentionally, and not out of anger or defense (what is there to defend exactly?), at the end of my the following passage

"Somehow your puny brain seems to have difficult (may a paralysis of some sort!) to process this distinction.”

knowing fully well that would use it as a cope out instead of addressing my other statements. It is just how automatic and predictable you are ...

[Rakesh Bhasin]

I remember having read somewhere during school days that a person who was on the verge of death, was put in an air tight glass cabin and on demise a thundering voice and a beam of light were observed.... if i remember it correctly from my memory.
Then why functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI)should not record subtle activities of the brain. But experieces during meditation provide an excellent soothing effect to the entire body which is worth experience only.

More in next.

[william]

Elephant denial is an interesting phenomenon but so is unsolicited advice. One must admit we humans are an interesting phenomenon.

I touched you were it hurts our cherished beliefs. This is the power of paradigms. Please make a note to yourself you did not check out any of the "evidence" that you had asked for.

Most people don’t want evidence they want agreement from others that supports their cherished beliefs.

One only has to look to wash dc to see this phenomenon in action.

[the elephant]

>Elephant denial
What denial?

William, I share with Tao that you are hopeless. You assume with a complete disregards of what others say ...

"Please make a note to yourself you did not check out any of the "evidence" that you had asked for."

Actually, I did! some of your own paradigms must be slowly crumbling here ...
I did listen to
http://www.leslieflint.com/frederickolsenswf.htm
The voice is quite appropriate for halloween ...
and I red some other transcripts available on the site.
Could point to me exactly to a passage or extract that you find 'beyond any reasonable doubt' because I could not find one ...
I also googled the two other names but without much success ...

[william]

"Could point to me exactly to a passage or extract that you find 'beyond any reasonable doubt' because I could not find one"

You are looking for beyond any reasonable doubt. Good luck there. Tell me anything on this blog that someone has stated that one could call beyond any reasonable doubt. How much research did you do on Leslie flint. Did you seek out why voices come through in that manner? No you prefer to remain in ignorance and use slander by calling it a voice that belongs on Halloween. You have no idea how ignorant that remark is to the many researchers that have done research into direct voice mediumship.

Ignorance knows no bounds when it comes to research or should I say those that profess to do research.

You judge the sound of the voice and paid little attention to the content. Now the sitters did an abysmal job of validating the person/personas that came through. But this is my point the sitters were believers not researchers. Once we become a believer or a cynic whether it is atheism or whatever we lose our ability to do creditable research.

Brian’s authors of this book were materialists when they started this research and they will find materialistic answers to their questions on the brain. Ask the Darwinist folks to give you data that proves their theory on evolution beyond a reasonable doubt yet it is being taught in schools as fact.

So we have the creationists on one side, which have no data other than beliefs and the scientists that have enough gaps in their data to sail an aircraft carrier through calling evolution a fact. Neither side willing to admit we do not as yet understand the mysteries of life as we know it. Oh we must not forget the intelligent design folks that still think god is in the design business.

The sitters get an f for their research abilities but they proved my point they have a paradigm of the validity of direct voice mediumship. But you also have failed to understand or do any research on direct voice mediumship and instead chose to slander a medium that was never found to be a fraud and offered no explanations of how this person came through and how the sitters knew this person when he lived on earth. Instead you pulled the atheist copout of stating beyond a reasonable doubt without looking at all the evidence. I am not going to spoon feed you the evidence and it would do no good you have already made up your mind. (paradigm paralysis)

Again ignorance knows no boundaries but without ignorance life would not exist, as we know it. All of life is relative, and when we understand the connection between variation and ignorance we realize life has to be relative or we would only be pure awareness.