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September 19, 2007

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Interesting concept Brian.

Not being raised catholic or any religion for that matter (this proved to be a gift) but becoming catholic to marry a catholic in the church, I was told by the RCIA folks that I had to go to at least one confession. So I did and had to tell the priest my biggest sin. So I did and had to repeat ten Hail Mary’s.

When I walked out of the confession booth there were about ten ladies waiting for me because I had taken the longest in the history of the church to agree to be a catholic. A distinction I am not sure I am proud of. Well they asked me “what did he say you had to do”. I said the priest stated I should hug every lady I see that day.

Yes many have told me my humor is suspect. So I received ten tight hugs. Then I realized I had lied and needed to go back and confess. Never ending trip. They should put cots in those confessional booths and just have sleepovers.

All kidding aside the Catholic Church I attended those few years had passionate sermons, great music, and friendly people not afraid to have a party. I liked them; could not buy into all the dogma but they appeared to not take all that dogma that serious. Sorry to report the head priest got into sexual trouble with some teens when he was a young priest and it came back to haunt him.

Karma I suspect. Greatest and most dynamic leader I have ever seen and sexual misconduct did him in. The good he did for the homeless was outstanding. Six years of battles with the city to build a place to feed the homeless. Oh the lessons of the earth experience.


What I have learned in my consulting career and my research into the mysteries of life is that once we buy into a path or religion whether it be Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Advaita, New Age, Atheism, Darwinism, Spiritualism, or whatever those beliefs become our beliefs and we will defend them in spite of the evidence and even attack anyone that suggests otherwise. Some will even fly thru tall buildings and yell god is great.

Concerning attacks: I.e. I recently was accused of doing my research in Cracker Jack boxes. I love cracker jacks and I resent being told that information inside those boxes is not absolute truths. Every Sunday morning I attend the Church of Cracker Jack. Hey it beats a small breadcrumb that did not rise and not enough wine to even get a high.

This phenomenon of my beliefs is thee beliefs fascinates me and the best video I have found to explain this is Joel Barker’s, "the business of paradigms" but later I found out Joel has some paradigms of his own concerning his Christian beliefs. Fascinating stuff. And I think this phenomenon helps explain why the journey takes so long.

Dear William,

WHAT journey?

What is the process of this journey?

Where did it begin, and where will it end?

What tools are needed to complete it?

How do you know for sure it is completed?

(now this one's REALLY profound, but very apt to be misunderstood!) How do you know for sure it even began?

How do you know this 'journey' is real OUTSIDE of the bounds of YOUR imagination/concepts?

Thanks.

“What is the process of this journey?”

Very deep question. Anything I say will be a paradox but love these challenges.

Maybe we begin as the consciousness of a rock, then a blade of grass, then a plant, then an animal, then we rose to the level of a human, then to higher realms or worlds, then I suspect to lesser gods. Who knows do you claim to know? The universe is not about to give up its mysteries so easily.

What I like about advaita teachings is it understanding of the relationship of awareness to consciousness. What is interesting is the followers think they have arrived and the journey is over for them as an perceived entity. Maybe this is due to a fear of reincarnation. When I first learned that reincarnation is probably a reality set me off into the direction of the typical advaita student to get enlightened. I probably made all the mistakes of the advaita types on here.

It is like been there done that but they don’t have a clue that their egos are alive and well and it is their egos that have convinced them of their enlightenment. Their anger vaguely hidden in attacks and defensive behaviour gives them away. When they achieve a much higher level of consciousness that anger and defensive behavior will be replaced by love and compassion. And in no way am I suggesting that level of consciousness for myself.

One advaita student/guru that I highly recommend is Andrew Vernon. What a treat to dialog on the net with this very knowledgeable and compassionate person not afraid to say “I don’t have all the answers” person. A rare phenomenon in these advaita types.

Look at it this way we all love a good movie and in god’s movie god gets to play all the parts. The producer, director, and gets all the acting jobs. Because god is absolute oneness it must insert some ignorance or there would be no movie just duplication of its oneness. Infinite perfection (pure awareness) becomes imperfection (consciousness) thru ignorance. We are the characters in that movie and some advaita types believing that have all the vitality and intelligence of the producer and director. That is ego in action and oh is that ego deceptive far beyond anyone beliefs.

“How do you know this 'journey' is real OUTSIDE of the bounds of YOUR imagination/concepts?”

For the hundredth time the journey is not real but mere phenomena but oh what phenomena. So real if I accidentally bumped you off a cliff and yelled don’t worry it is not real I am sure you would smile and say on the way down, “oh how right you are” as you come to the sudden not real stop.

You are not interested in what I think you already have all the answers why bother to ask. If I am wrong about that then I apologize. But my experience is that once someone buys into any system of beliefs (especially religious beliefs) they no longer listen only defend even to the point of claiming they have no beliefs.

Scary very scary and helps to explain why the journey appears to take so long realizing of course that time is nonexistent. Love those paradoxes. Hey it is a realistic movie full of drama where the characters believe they are in charge of their own destiny even to the point of thinking they are the director.

Dear William,

We keep going around and around. Let's try it this way..

While the following may appear intellectual it is here to take you to the brink where intellect stops and intuition comes in.

This which I am is that (which I am not),

That which I am not is this (which I am).

There is neither This nor That.

I neither am nor am not (there is neither an I which is nor an I which is not).

There is neither whole (non-dual) mind nor split (dual) mind.

There is nothing to function, and no functioning.

There is no absence and no presence.

You say, "There still remains what is, right now."

It also, neither is nor is not.

There is nothing to be understood.

Who would understand? Who would not understand?

Who has been lived all these years? What has suffered?

You are neither that nor this. One just is and doesn't know it. Everything just is and doesn't know it.

Such is what one finds when one wakes up.


--credits to TJG

Tucson bob: it is not just about waking up it is about becoming that that is but the paradox is we were always that that is.

The words of truth are always paradoxical.
Lao Tzu


Waking up is just a first step in a long series of steps.

Create a few planets then get back to me bob.

Someday you yes you Tucson bob will flying around in one of those ufo's and checking out your work as a lesser god and will smile when you think about the times you thought that waking up was the end of your illusionary journey. God is going to play each character for all it can get.

As long as you accept advaita type teachings as the final truth you will keep saying the same thing. We are all that oneness. Ok now move past that and be open to experiences that will advance your consciousness to a level we cannot even imagine.

There is so much more ahead of us than just being humans. We humans are at the beginning stages of our evolution of consciousness. Hello: we humans enjoy killing one another without realizing when we kill another we harm ourselves (the hidden secret of karma). Oneness demands it to be so.

Maybe you advaita type folks want to think the journey is over. Reincarnation is not a pleasant thought. I was not happy when I discovered I would have to come back here for another go around. Maybe many go arounds. The thought depresses me but yet on the other hand there are things I want to do that I did not do in this life. Those desires will guarantee a return trip I suspect.

We humans are very selfish folks and life on earth is about struggles and suffering and joy. You say there is no one to suffer oh yes let someone hit you over the head with a tire iron and then tell yourself there is no one here to suffer or tell some parents that have just lost their only child and then tell them there is no one to suffer. Platitudes after platitudes.

Check out Ira Stevenson’s work with the university of Virginia on his reincarnation studies and Paul Brunton’s writings. Both men spent their adult life on seeking answers into these mysteries of life. The biggest mistake seekers make is finding one teaching that reduces their fears or whatever and then they stick with it in spite of the evidence. Amazing to watch.

My words mean nothing to you because you have already made up your mind. That is the power of paradigms. My paradigms may be way off but who cares; who am I. I just tell it as I see it today. Hopefully subject to change. Each change in my view into the mysteries of life that I have had to make has been painful. This is I believe why people hang onto their beliefs in spite of the evidence.
Been down the advaita pathway back in the nineties. Spent years asking, “who am I” and meditating for hours at a time. The ego is so deceiving it can delude itself into thinking it is awakened. Status thing. Ego loves status.

As always thanks for the dialog

Dear William,

I love you man.

Good luck with your journey.

And when you reach the Big Guy, please ask him to have mercy on this poor deluded soul.

I cut off my head and placed it at his feet.

And he just kicked at back at me.

Peace.

William,

Many years ago there was a guy who would wander among people on the beaches of Santa Monica and Venice (L.A.) singing "merry go, merry go, merry go 'round" over and over again to the beat of a small drum he carried to help spread the message. He was disheveled and dirty, and of course everyone thought he was crazy. One day we passed each other and he gave me a wink. In a flash realization dawned on me like a bolt of lightning and I saw he wasn't crazy at all. Teachers show up in unexpected ways and places.

“Teachers show up in unexpected ways and places”.

Maybe not so unexpected. Maybe right on time and when they are exactly needed or maybe I should state; when we are really to hear them. That is the power of experiences and especially significant emotional experiences; they provide a crack in our cherished paradigm that has the thickness of a concrete wall and this crack will give us the opportunity to move beyond our existing state of consciousness.

But only the opportunity sometimes it takes much more suffering before we are willing to give up our cherished beliefs.

Why is this? Why the resistance? I suspect it is because it is mentality painful to change that cherished paradigm we have been carrying around for year’s maybe centuries. We are creatures of comfort but also curious. The comfort part keeps us in a state of denial and the curious part allows us to discover the mysteries of our lives and the universe.

It is of interest to me that the advaita types believe they have already discovered all the mysteries this universe has to offer. This belief may be the ultimate in egotistical belief or may simply be the hope that their journey ends with this life as much of our lives at this stage of our evolution of consciousness is suffering.


Until we are ready a teachers words are treated as blasphemy and/or heresy and the teachers words reveals an interesting characteristic of human behavior: defensiveness, hostile remarks, and most of all denial.

Did I say hostile remarks? Some will kill and even torture others to protect their cherished beliefs.

Thanks for the story

“And when you reach the Big Guy, please ask him to have mercy on this poor deluded soul.”

Never once have I used the words big guy or called you a deluded soul. Although the deluded soul part I may have hinted at as I may have accused some of living in delusion.

We all live in delusion to some degree that is the role of the ego. Without this delusion there is no manifestation of entities that think they are separate. Please note that guru that Tao linked to used the words you and him. That denotes separate. This delusion is based in ignorance. Ignorance is the fundamental “principle” that allows oneness to become twoness.

The guru on the video that Tao linked on here is very close to discovering this principle. As far as the big guy look at the pics coming back from the Hubble telescope and that is the power of your big guy that most call god.

Do you have that ability, intelligence, and vitality to create such majesty? When you do get back to me and we will talk. Speaking of talking one of the abilities we will attain is the ability to communicate with telepathy.

As I had a life review once with telepathic communication and it is awesome, beyond mere words, but of course the entity that was communicating with me was compassionate and loving. Nothing like I experience with so-called enlighten gurus on the net.

Please note the “guru” that Tao linked appeared to be yelling out his remarks. This suggests ego and not spirit. No need to yell when you are comfortable with your words.

Tucson Bob,

Are you from Tucson? I'm kinda bored. I just needed to ask.
Thanks...roger

William wrote (in quotations):

"What is interesting is the followers think they have arrived and the journey is over for them as an perceived entity."

-- What "followers"? Who are these "followers"? And who thinks they "have arrived and the journey is over"? What journey is that? The one in your head?

"I probably made all the mistakes of the advaita types on here."

-- Oh really? That sounds pretty presumptious and self-assured and egotistical to me.

"It is like been there done that but they don’t have a clue that their egos are alive and well and it is their egos that have convinced them of their enlightenment."

-- The fact of the matter is that you know nothing about anyone else, about supposed "enlightenment" etc. I have not seen anyone here claim enlightenment. Although I have seen William claim that he knows more and better than the rest. Sorry, but you're really a joke William. You don't have a clue about how many of the others in this forum see right through your silly rhetoric.

"Their anger vaguely hidden in attacks and defensive behaviour gives them away. When they achieve a much higher level of consciousness that anger and defensive behavior will be replaced by love and compassion."

-- Your poseur ego is showing again. And again, you simply do not know where others are actually coming from. At best you only know what they write... which could mean any number of things depending upon what and how they are trying to commumicate. You must be a rather young man because you are fairly naive when it comes to accurately judging others.

"in god’s movie god gets to play all the parts. The producer, director, and gets all the acting jobs. Because god is absolute oneness it must insert some ignorance or there would be no movie just duplication of its oneness. Infinite perfection (pure awareness) becomes imperfection (consciousness) thru ignorance. We are the characters in that movie and some advaita types believing that have all the vitality and intelligence of the producer and director."

-- This is nothing but ridiculous and meaningless convoluted psycho-babble. All I can say is that unfortunately, this kind of dualistic drivel indicates that you are definitely 'lost in the woods' spiritually.

"For the hundredth time the journey is not real but mere phenomena..."

-- What journey? You assume that there is a "journey". Do you even know what it it is that you are talking about? At this point I don't think so.

"time is nonexistent"

-- Yadda yadda yadda. Ie: more meanigless babble.

"it is a realistic movie full of drama where the characters believe they are in charge of their own destiny even to the point of thinking they are the director."

More meaningless conceptual psycho-babble.

"The words of truth are always paradoxical. "

Pseudo-spirtual BS.

"Waking up is just a first step in a long series of steps."

-- How do you know? Define "waking up". And also what are these "long series of steps" that you speak of? Please simply answer the questions without being evasive.

"Create a few planets then get back to me"

-- More irrelevance, diversion, and evasion. And btw, who is "me"?

"Someday you yes you ... will flying around in one of those ufo's and checking out your work as a lesser god"

-- More irrelevant new-age space-ship mumbo jumbo.

"As long as you accept advaita type teachings as the final truth you will keep saying the same thing."

-- Who do you think is accepting "advaita type teachings"? And what is "the same thing"?

"We humans are at the beginning stages of our evolution of consciousness."

-- Sounds like you are making some definite assumptions here.

"Maybe you advaita type folks want to think the journey is over."

-- What "advaita type folks"? And what "journey"?

"Reincarnation is ... I discovered I would have to come back here for another go around. Maybe many go arounds. The thought depresses me..."

-- You sound pretty convinced. But the fact is that you actually do not know. Also, if you know so much about being awake as you pretend to know, then how is it that something as abstract as re-incarnation theory "depresses" you?

"Those desires will guarantee a return trip"

-- "guarantee"? Don't be so sure.

"You say there is no one to suffer oh yes let someone hit you over the head with a tire iron and then tell yourself there is no one here to suffer..."

-- No one has said that there is no physical pain. But show us where is the suffering and the one who is the sufferer?

"Check out Ira Stevenson’s work with the university of Virginia on his reincarnation studies and Paul Brunton’s writings."

-- No amount of so-called "work" or research on re-incarnation has yet established or proved anything conclusive. As for Brunton, I have read his books and all of his voluminous notes as well, and most if not all of it is merely conjecture. Brunton did have a good appreciation for Ramana though. But it appears that you are not very familiar with essence of Ramana's teaching.

"The biggest mistake seekers make..."

-- Who do you suppose are these "seekers" that you refer to? And are you an expert on "seekers"? You sound like a real obvious seeker to me.

"My words mean nothing to you because you have already made up your mind."

-- It is quite evident that it is actually you who has "already made up your mind". You have indicated that in numerous comments and posts.

"This is I believe why people hang onto their beliefs in spite of the evidence."

-- The fact is that you are the one here who has all the "beliefs".... and none of the evidence to support your beliefs.

"Been down the advaita pathway back in the nineties. Spent years asking, “who am I” and meditating for hours at a time."

-- If that was really true, then it's most likely that you would understand a whole lot more than you do. Also, "who am I" is Self-inquiry (atma-vichara), not "the advaita pathway". So it appears that you do not actually know what it is that you are pretending to know.

"sometimes it takes much more suffering before we are willing to give up our cherished beliefs. Why is this? Why the resistance? I suspect it is because it is mentality painful to change that cherished paradigm we have been carrying around for year’s"

-- You mean that paradigm that YOU have been carring around for years?

"the advaita types believe they have already discovered all the mysteries this universe has to offer."

-- Just who are these "advaita types" that you keep referring to? I am not aware of anyone on this blog forum who is an "advaita type". And how do you know what (if anything) those people that you keep referring to actually "believe"?

"This belief may be the ultimate in egotistical belief"

-- You are actually the one here with all the various beliefs and conclusions about the universe etc. That is pretty "egotistical".

"a teachers words are treated as blasphemy and/or heresy and the teachers words reveals an interesting characteristic of human behavior: defensiveness, hostile remarks, and most of all denial. Did I say hostile remarks? "

-- So now you apparently consider yourself to be a teacher here? And because you assume that you are "teacher" to others here, you feel persecuted by others supposed "hostile remarks"? Apparently you have some unresolved psychological and emotional issues.

"the deluded soul part I may have hinted at as I may have accused some of living in delusion."

-- You are projecting your own stuff onto others William.

"As I had a life review once with telepathic communication and it is awesome, beyond mere words, but of course the entity that was communicating with me was compassionate and loving. Nothing like I experience with so-called enlighten gurus"

-- I don't know who these "enlighten gurus" are that you are referring to and deprecating, but I can definitely see that you are rather caught up in some kind of delusional new-age mumbo-jumbo, and you also could use some professional counseling and therapy for your emotional issues.


Tao: feeling a little bit threaten by my remarks?

The one feeling threaten is not the real you but the false you commonly called the ego.

You Tao are living proof of the drama that god loves to play.

“To be great is to be misunderstood.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson

William,

I don't think Tao is in any way, shape or form threatened by your remarks. He may be a little frustrated in getting an honest response from you, without your posturing as some authority on Reality based on your "research" into reincarnation, UFO's, ignorance, etc.

It seems to me you are resentful that certain folks are capable of expressing understanding and insight that may exceed your own. You would like to be viewed as the authority here on these matters and it just isn't working out that way, is it?

******* ******

ROGER was so bored that he wanted to know if I am from Tucson. No, I am not 'from' Tucson. There is nothing 'Tucson' about me except geographical approximation. I am a former surfer from So. Calif. where I lived for forty years doing various jobs and businesses. I then retired to spend about 14 years picking up horse shit in Oregon, and then a couple of years dodging hurricanes in Florida. I figure I have picked up roughly 306,000 piles of horse manure which pales in comparison to Brian's 10,000,000 rounds of simran (sant mat mantra). However, I am not certain which has more value in getting us to the Promised Land.

Egotism fills this blog site.

Robert Paul Howard

As I anticipated William, you have evaded answering every single one of my simple, clear, and direct questions.

Instead, grasping at straws, you raise a shallow smoke-screen of some nonsense or other about being threatened. Which is of course, clearly a projection of your own sense of being threatened.

And also as has now become typical of William, he again attepts to play his little guru role by saying "feeling threaten is not the real you but the false you commonly called the ego." As if William has the last word of wisdom.

But you are only making a fool of yourself William. Both you and your rhetoric is so transparent, and your evasive pseudo-spiritual word games have become predictable and boring. You have also repeatedly avoided and evaded almost every simple direct question or inquiry that anyone here has asked of you. Therefore, at this point, you are not fooling anyone by being such a pseudo-spiritual poseur.

So come off it and be real.


Tucson bob stated:
"You would like to be viewed as the authority here on these matters and it just isn't working out that way, is it?"

It appears to me that this is what Tao continually accuses me of knowing what others are thinking or their motivation. Viewed as an authority? Does anyone read what I say or are you two gurus too busy defending your beliefs? I stated that humans, which includes me, know about 2 to 4% of those mysteries of life. Does that sound like an authority?

Authority Jesus was some kind of authority and look what they did to him. You cannot change someone’s religious beliefs it has to come from within usually after a significant emotional experience.

We know so little about the mysteries of the universe some even believe that we are here due to chance with a little random mutation and throw in some natural selection and whoa you have a taco I mean Tao.

I only state what my research reveals to me today. Who cares what I say? Just one human in this vast universe.

I am fascinated by how a person once they buy into a certain set of beliefs will defend them to the end in spite of the evidence. And even tell others they know truth. For the most part they will not even look at the evidence that contradicts their beliefs.

The best explanation for this is that it is very painful mentality to even challenge our beliefs. We lock in for comfort and also the ego loves to think it knows truth. Hence the word egotistical.

Reminds me of a preacher on a Sunday morning stating to everyone that will listen holding up his bible and stating “every word in this book is truth” and if there I would want to stand up and say “well we have a lot of killing to do this week because it states in that book of truth of yours that those that work on Sunday shall be put to death”.

Go to love those poor souls that think they have found truth. The universe has only begun to give up her mysteries. As always thanks for the dialog.

William wrote: "I stated that humans, which includes me, know about 2 to 4% of those mysteries of life. Does that sound like an authority?"--

Sounds like an authority to me. How do you know that? In order to come up with the figure of 2-4% you would have to know what the other 96-98% is that we don't know!

Contining his usual pattern of evasion of questions, William writes:

"Does anyone read what I say or are you two gurus too busy defending your beliefs?"

-- Gurus? Neither Tuscon nor I pretend any guru status or beliefs to defend. That's really all your kind of thing.

"I stated that humans, which includes me, know about 2 to 4% of those mysteries of life."

-- Yes, this is an example of your BELIEF.

"Jesus was some kind of authority"

-- Another example of a belief of yours.

"Who cares what I say?"

-- You do of course.

"Just one human in this vast universe."

-- Are you sure you are "in" the universe... or, is the universe in you?

"I am fascinated by how a person once they buy into a certain set of beliefs will defend them to the end in spite of the evidence."

-- You yourself are a prime example of "how a person once they buy into a certain set of beliefs will defend them to the end in spite of the evidence. And even tell others they know truth." ... And not look at the evidence of YOUR OWN beliefs.

Reminds me of a particular blogster on a blog called "Churchless of the Churchless", stating to everyone that will listen and posting his comments and assuming that every word of his so-called "research" is true.

You know... one of those "poor souls that think they have found truth.


The man who Tucson Bob described was, and is, named Larry{Wild Man} Fischer. I also remember encountering him on a street corner on the Sunset Strip around 1970 and hearing him sing Merry go round, a song whose one line and melody I can still recall to this day. It was outside the Aware Inn that Wild Man Fischer left his indelible mark on me although at the time I probably thought that he was a harmless, slightly demented and drug crazed soul. I still have an LP anthology double album that contains one of his songs from his record,"An Evening with Wild Man Fischer." By googling his name, I found many sites and learned that he is living in the Hollywood area today. Thanks for reviving some great old memories, Tucson Bob.

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