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September 12, 2007

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this may help. http://www.leslieflint.com/frederickolsenswf.htm

If some people like Brian are so scared shitless about not existing after death perhaps they should reflect on their state of being BEFORE they were born! As far as I know no one was traumatized or horrified about not existing before they were born.

Using D.J.'s logic one could say that if you were upset about losing your IPod why should it bother you since you weren't upset about not having one before IPods were invented !

Now, think of this. If there really is 'time' in the sense that we conceive of it...a line of sequential events that carry on forever into the future. This line must also extend sequentially forever into the past. Conceptually, even if there is nothing, time passes. There just isn't anyone to know it. So, if this line goes forever into the past, how could your moment of being ever have come to exist?

Unless...

You see, what you really are is this awareness now. Not the content of awareness, but the awareness within which the creation appears. Your body, your thoughts, your perceptions which 'die', conceptual sequentiality, all pass within this awareness. But this awareness is no thing in itself. It has no form, color or name. It is unborn, unknowable and not subject to the concept of time. It is what you were before you were born and what you will be after. It is here now and can never be anyplace else.

Where do you go when you die? Right here. Right now. That's where. And what will be here now?

In the same way that we have varied experiences in this life, the content of the awareness will vary after this body disappears. It may be heaven, hell, angels, astral planes, white light, your favorite dog, or another form or "rebirth", but the awareness remains. It may be the primordial luminous 'Void' spoken of by sages since time immemorial, but chances are phenomena will continue to appear.

If there is a concern with death, it may be useful to enquire, 'What is there to die?' Obvious answers would be, 'whatever is born' or, 'only what is called 'matter' can be subject to birth and death.'

Birth and death, actually two sides of the same coin, are only apparently separated as a result of their conceptual extension in space and time. But that is only the ideation process of mind in the dream of life. Apart from ideation, what could there be to be born or to die? A concept? A thought?

Infinitesimal mnemonic impressions misconstrued as the subject of their objectivity is all that the ego is. What is prior to this dualistic process of thought and ideation? Can THIS be born? Can THIS die?



"But that is only the ideation process of mind in the dream of life. Apart from ideation, what could there be to be born or to die? A concept? A thought?"

According to my readings/research this process of mind or ideation that might best be called an identity that “feels” separate from this pure awareness does indeed continue on after death.

The book the ghost hunters and hundreds of others supports this belief that we are our own sweet self after death. About the only thing death does is reveal to most of us our consciousness survives beyond death. Some after death wonder around wondering why no one can see them and refuse to accept their physical death.

As far as death no big deal for those over 50 I don’t believe it. People have been known to lie on polls. The fear of death I suspect is responsible for most neurotic behavior. It is a status statement to say one does not fear death. I suspect suppression of our fear of death is in full force most of our lives but harder to suppress especially after we reach 50.

Over half of all money spent I have read is spent the last six months to keep us alive. That reveals more than a poll about our fear of death.

Pure awareness appears to “want” a longer individual drama than a mere one human life. I suspect that we will evolve to interplanetary explorers (UFO’s) and even to the status of gods before we become “that that is” knowing of course at least intellectually that we were always that that is. This is probably the greatest of all paradox’s.

Great topic Brian. Most are afraid to even discuss death. You were even “attacked” for even bringing up this topic. (“If some people like Brian are so scared shitless”) In America we hide from it out of sight out of mind is our motto. Why is that? Our suppressed fear of death.

From my point of view those that advocate we return to this pure awareness after death have not done enough research or confined their research into religious teachings only.

WILLIAM said: "According to my readings/research this process of mind or ideation that might best be called an identity that “feels” separate from this pure awareness does indeed continue on after death."

Some cosmologies refer to what you are talking about as the astral or subtle form. But this is also ideation and conceptual (and more readily seen as such at that level)originating in the causal (even more readily recognized) aka Brahm. The absolute unborn, undying is 'beyond' or prior to Brahm.

WILLIAM said: "As far as death no big deal for those over 50 I don’t believe it. People have been known to lie on polls. The fear of death I suspect is responsible for most neurotic behavior. It is a status statement to say one does not fear death. I suspect suppression of our fear of death is in full force most of our lives but harder to suppress especially after we reach 50.

I agree completely.

WILLIAM said: "Pure awareness appears to “want” a longer individual drama than a mere one human life. I suspect that we will evolve to interplanetary explorers (UFO’s) and even to the status of gods before we become “that that is” knowing of course at least intellectually that we were always that that is. This is probably the greatest of all paradox’s.

Why go to other planets to be awareness which is, as it is, here and everywhere which are one and the same?

“Some cosmologies refer to what you are talking about as the astral or subtle form. But this is also ideation and conceptual”

Agree completely but: always a but” this does not erase the reality that we exist after this life in an astral or subtle form as an identity and it appears that most of us come back for another go at it. Ouch, don’t like that part which means I will be coming back.

“The absolute unborn, undying is 'beyond' or prior to Brahm.”

Agree completely. Oneness is always oneness there is no other. Even the Christians state that god is all and all then go on and separate themselves from god. Then go on to state we all have the spirit of god within us. Then go on and state many of us go to hell with this spirit within us which means god sends itself to hell for eternity. Correct me if I am wrong here but those beliefs do not pass even a simple logic test. Some preachers even go so far as to say god must adopt us; of course we can only be adopted if we by into their dogma.

This “you must believe as we do to go to heaven” type preacher’s sermons are based in doubt not certainty. The appearance of certainty is a cover up to over come their doubts. I have been accused of writing with certainty if this is so and I suspect it is this is only to cover up my own doubts. Doubt can be good look what happens when we become “dead certain”.


"Why go to other planets to be awareness which is, as it is, here and everywhere which are one and the same?"

This planet offers limited opportunities to reach a vibrational/vitality/intelligence/creative/awareness level necessary to awaken and attain the level of cosmic consciousness necessary to “return” to that that is (pure awareness) knowing of course we never left that that is. How could we leave absolute oneness? Love those paradoxes. Those that think that because they have become "enlighten" in this life have finished their journey as an identity are from my point of view deluding themselves.

Stated another way there are many more profound experiences (phenomena) awaiting us before we give up that identity of self. Even the most profound/advanced teachings I have been able to find from an “entity” from the other side thru automatic writing signed their teachings with a symbol rather than a name and that symbol suggests an individual or group uniqueness.

William wrote:

"...this does not erase the reality that we exist after this life in an astral or subtle form as an identity and it appears that most of us come back for another go at it." -- How do you know that? What "reality"?

"This planet offers limited opportunities to reach a vibrational/vitality/intelligence/creative/awareness level necessary to awaken and attain the level of cosmic consciousness necessary to “return” to that that is (pure awareness), knowing of course we never left that that is. -- First, how do you know that? How would you know what the "opportunities" and limitations of this "planet" are? And second, you go on to directly contradict yourself.

"...the most profound/advanced teachings I have been able to find from an “entity” from the other side thru automatic writing..." -- Dude, are you aware that you are talking some real wacko nonsense here? Your credibility factor has just dropped down about 99.87654321 percent. That's not good.


William said: "Great topic Brian. Most are afraid to even discuss death. You were even “attacked” for even bringing up this topic. (“If some people like Brian are so scared shitless”)"
Funny that you consider my adding "shitless" to what Brian already wrote as an "attack"! I did'nt intend it as an attack; I merely added SHITLESS for a little dramatic flair. Lots of things scare me shitless like being bitten in the face by a King Cobra,being forced to watch Wheel of Fortune,etc...

T.Bob wrote:

"Using D.J.'s logic one could say that if you were upset about losing your IPod why should it bother you since you weren't upset about not having one before IPods were invented !"
That's right T.Bob, you got my number!Why be upset about losing an IPod, IPhone, or IThrone. Your born naked and all you basically need is food, shelter and some clothes on your back and all thats replaceable.Why be uptight about death even if their is nothing but OBVIVION for all eternity? Sounds very peacefull to me.

Tao if my creditability depended on what you thought reality was I indeed would be a wacko. Your comments are further proof of your lack of doing any research or for that matter any reading into the paranormal. Try it sometimes it is very revealing but there is a catch one must read with a skeptical mind (much fraud so be aware) but not a closed mind.

Study the history of scientists like Myers and James that have conducted research into the paranormal and see what kind of harsh resistance and personal attacks they had to encounter from scientists with a materialistic system of beliefs. The materialistic paradigm is as inflexible and contains as much paralysis as most religious paradigms.

And I am willing to bet that you consider yourself a person with an open mind and understand the scientific method as these scientists did that made demeaning remarks to such men of great character as James and Myers who believed there is much yet to discover about our universe.

One researcher joined a skeptic group and they had a wonderful library of paranormal books. After one year in the organization he discovered not one book had been checked out of this library nor as far as he could tell no one in this organization had every read one of those books on the paranormal in this library. Here are two quotes that fit into our discussion.

“The greatest skeptic concerning paranormal phenomena is invariably the man who knows the least about them.” H.H. Price

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance; that principle is contempt, prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

“Dude, are you aware that you are talking some real wacko nonsense here?”

Tao this sounds a bit like contempt to me. You may want to read Herbert’s quote a few times and meditate on it.

William,

I know about and have read about and have experienced more of the "paranormal", far more than you realize or that you will ever know.

And you... you don't know shit about me or what I do or don't know. You are just flapping your fingers on the keyboard again.

I don't care what you may have read. I have been there and done all that and more. Your "paranormal" schtick just doesn't impress me. Sorry.


Tao thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.

"I know about and have read about and have experienced more of the "paranormal", far more than you realize or that you will ever know."

Experience and even reading can be very poor teachers if the mind is already closed. Go to the local library and check out the video "the business of paradigms" by Joel barker. Very revealing video on the paradigm effect and paradigm paralysis. What is very, very rare is a paradigm shift.

Below is a list of s scientists that had this paradigm shift. Most started as skeptics and many started out to debunk the whole paranormal phenomena but they had one thing in common. A willingness to do research and a slight opening in their system of beliefs, which most humans do not have: hence, we sometimes have significant emotional events in our lives that often open our mind to the possibilities of a new discovery.

Our mind’s willingness to be open to new possibilities is a very rare phenomenon, as our ego wants to think it knows all reality (i.e. truth). Classic examples of this are religious fundamentalists and ultra skeptics that pretend to be debunkers, when in actuality they are protecting their existing paradigms.

The universe has only begun to reveal her mysteries to us but our ego wants to convince others and more important itself that it knows. Read your comments to me and notice how your ego wants to think it knows. If there is anything more deceptive than our egos I have not discovered it.

How could isness experience and express its pure awareness and maybe even know it’s fullest potential without this deceptive ego of ours. This self-deception has its origin in ignorance (i.e. unawareness). Ignorance is a necessity for phenomena to occur.

Here is a list of scientists, researchers and a couple of mediums you may want to do some research on. Get back to me in about ten years after you have had time to conduct proper research on each one of these individuals. Gosh, don’t see Dr’s William’s name on their yet oh well maybe someday. Egoooooooooo statement. Inner smile at this time.

Dr Prof John Bockris , Dr Prof Ray Moody, Dr Aubrey Rose, Dr Helen Wambach, Dr Peter Ramster, Dr Fred, Alan Wolf, Dr Karlis Osis, Dr E Haraldsen, Dr Robert Crookall, Dr Prof Ernst Senkowski , Dr Albert Meader, Dr Edith Fiore, Dr Melvin Morse, Dr Konstantin Raudive, Dr Kenneth Ring, Dr Prof Archie Roy, Dr Ian Stevenson, Dr Morris Netherton,, Dr Alexander Cannon, Dr Arthur Guirdham, Dr Prof James Hyslop, Dr. Carl A. Wickland, Dr. T. Glen Hamilton, Dr. Robert Crookall , Dr. Prof. C. J. Ducasse
Dr. Prof.Charles Richet, (Nobel L.), Dr. Alfred Russel Wallace, Dr. Hereward Carrington, Dr Prof. William James, , Dr Prof. Charles H Hapgood, Dr.Elizabeth Kübler-Ross,., Dr. Prof. Camille Flammarion , Dr Ivanova, Dr Prof David Fontana, Dr Prof.Amit Goswami , Dr. (Baron) Albert Von Schrenck-, Dr VON Schrenck Notzing, Sir William Crookes , Sir Oliver Lodge,, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sir William Barrett, George Meek, Mark Macy , Marcello Bacci, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Sonia Rinaldi, Anthony Borgia, Lord Dowding, FWH Myers, Leonore Piper, Eileen Garret, Maurice Barbanell, Sarah Estep, Jack Webber, Arthur Findlay, Leslie Flint, Fr Johannes Greber
Ron Pearson, Scott Rogo, John Sloan, Judge John W. Edmonds , Allan Kardec, Esq. , The Rev. William Stainton Moses, The Rev. Charles Drayton Thomas , Edward C., Randall, Esq. , Klaus Schreiber , John Logie Baird, inventor of television., Thomas Alva Edison, inventor. Ena Twigg.

What are the probabilities that all of these people knew/know less than Tao? Bet you think you know more than them. That is the power of the ego.

“I don't care what you may have read. I have been there and done all that and more.” Tao this was an ego statement and your journey has just begun. We humans are at the very early stages of our journey. “Been there?” Where earth? Earth is like kindergarten in the total scheme of our “illusional” lives.

William,

You are still at it. Somehow you just don't get it. Other people have pointed this out to you as well, but you still carry on oblivious to what others see and are saying.


"Experience and even reading can be very poor teachers if the mind is already closed."

I disagree. Experience is hardly a poor teacher. True learning is through experience. And you are the one who promoting the reading of books.


"a slight opening in their system of beliefs, which most humans do not have"

That may be your belief, but I am not into belief systems.


"mind’s willingness to be open to new possibilities is a very rare phenomenon, as our ego wants to think it knows all reality (i.e. truth)."

You are really only talking and projecting about yourself. You simply do not know where somone else is at or what they understand about reality.


"Classic examples of this are religious fundamentalists and ultra skeptics that pretend to be debunkers"

Fyi, I am neither a fundamentalist nor a debunker.


"in actuality they are protecting their existing paradigms."

You are clearly "protecting" your paradigm by always trying to have the greater insight or answer. You are clearly full of yourself and don't have a clue as to where I am really at or where I am coming from. You are just projecting a lot of your own assumptions. That your ego.


"our ego wants to convince others and more important itself that it knows. Read your comments to me and notice how your ego wants to think it knows."

Which is exactly what you yourself are doing again and again in this forum. Read your own comments and notice how your ego wants to think it knows.


"If there is anything more deceptive than our egos I have not discovered it."

Just talk about your own ego. Others will take care of themselves.


"How could isness experience and express its pure awareness and maybe even know it’s fullest potential without this deceptive ego of ours."

You are in duality. You are merely juggeling words and concepts. Tucson Bob has already been over this with you many times. You are still in duality playing with concepts.


"This self-deception has its origin in ignorance (i.e. unawareness). Ignorance is a necessity for phenomena to occur."

That is just more meaningless word/concept juggelry.


"Here is a list of scientists, researchers and a couple of mediums you may want to do some research on."

I am not interested in "mediums". I am already awakened.


"Get back to me in about ten years after you have had time to conduct proper research on each one of these individuals."

"Get back to me in about ten years" you say? You are really full of yourself aren't you? A foolish comment like that reeks of pompous arrogance, and it also significantly discredits you.


And your lenghty list of doctors and professors doesn't impress me at all. I have academic degrees from prestigious universities as well. So what. I learned far more, and EXPERIENCED far more, and shifted paradigms far more from living as a tantric yogi-swami-sadhu-baba in India and the Himalayas 40 years ago, than I ever could have gained from receiving even a dozen PhDs. So wake-up dude... your collection of "paranormal researchers" and mediums doesn't impress me one iota... although many of them are likely very fine intelligent and learned people.


What are the probabilities that all of these people knew/know less than Tao?

The probability that they know far less than I do is extremely high if not 100 percent.


A question for you: How many of them are actually genuinely Self-realized? [my answer: none,zero]


"Bet you think you know more than them."

I don't think so, I KNOW so. Knowing and knowledge (especially Self-knowledge) is not ego.

Again... How many of those people you mention are actually truly Self-realized? How many of them have and abide in/as genuine Self-knowledge?

And how about you? Do you abide in awakened Self-knowledge? Self-realization? If not, then how can you presume to judge anyone else? For you to do so is "the power of" YOUR ego.

[Tao wrote: “I don't care what you may have read. I have been there and done all that and more.”]

"Tao this was an ego statement and your journey has just begun."

You know absolutely nothing about me. The fact and truth of the matter is that I have "been there and done that". It is your own ego which refuses to acknowledge and respect someone else's truth. Actually, your egoic reaction to my relating of my own personal experience, is quite transparent to me. You seem to think that you have one-up on me, but you are only showing how ego-centered you are yourself. Your ongoing duality and your compulsive word & concept jugglery is ample evidence of that. And furthermore, it is really your own "journey (that) has just begun."


"We humans are at the very early stages of our journey."

You are only speaking for/about yourself. You don't understand that do you?


"Where earth? Earth is like kindergarten in the total scheme of our “illusional” lives."

That is merely your own limited understanding. Until you actually awaken into Self-knowledge, you have nothing to offer but relative mental speculation.


God Tao you must be retired like me to have the time to write these long posts. Great posts and comments thanks for the opportunity to share.

“Just talk about your own ego. Others will take care of themselves.”

May want to look in the mirror on this one Tao. Have not read one word from you about you admitting the influence of your ego on your behavior. Truth be known this whole series of discussions we have had is most likely based in both our egos. If I learned nothing else from ACIM teachings and study groups it was how much control our ego has over our behavior. The mere fact that you respond to me in the hostile manner that you do has more to do with ego than spirit.

My words: “This self-deception has its origin in ignorance (i.e. unawareness). Ignorance is a necessity for phenomena to occur."
Your response: “That is just more meaningless word/concept juggelry.”
It is meaningless to you because you do not see the relationship of ignorance and phenomena. You are not alone so I cannot fault you for that.
A good place to start if you want to be able to see this relationship is to study Buddhism and maybe discover what the Buddha realized and that is that the origin of suffering is ignorance. Then go out and find the origin of that ignorance. Then if you discover the origin of ignorance you will be able to see the relationship of ignorance and phenomena.
This is a difficult journey as even most Buddhist monks call the origin of suffering such things as attachment, craving, grasping, and desire. The first three are symptoms not origins and desire is another story too long to tell here. Seek deeply and you will discover what the Buddha realized that the origin of suffering is ignorance.
“I am not interested in "mediums". I am already awakened.”
I hope I can put this under the banner of tough love but I fear it fits under my ego. My conversations with you reveal to me that you are anything but awakened. The mere reality that you and I go back and forth on this blog says more about our egos than any awaken status we might have. God help the human race if either you or I are examples of an awakened status.
My biggest fear is that you may be delusional and mentality ill and my words then lack compassion and understanding. Please tell me you are not under a doctor’s care. I am not trying to be mean here; just concerned. My reasoning is that anyone that thinks they are awakened and responds like you with such hostility to my posts is very delusional. When we are on a spiritual search it is very easy to convince ourselves we are awakened. Our ego wants an awakened status so bad as a status symbol and our ego makes sure we let everyone in the world know that we are awakened. This is the power of the ego. I am continually amazed at not only the deceptive behavior of other peoples egos but my own for its ability to deceive.
Most of my discussions with you and Tucson bob is intellectual in nature and I do not claim any type of awakened status.
“"Get back to me in about ten years" you say? You are really full of yourself aren't you?”
Actually I have doing research into the paranormal for 16 years and thought I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you would be able to retain more than me. Guess that was a mistake. As far as full of myself this is probably true. Our interactions suggest more about our egos than any awaken status we think we might have.
Don’t have time to address any more of your comments. I was once going to go to India and sit in a cave and become self realized. After reading your words and egotistical ramblings and hostility I am so thankful I passed on that idea I had over 10 years ago. I have heard about people like you that go off to India and become convinced by some guru that you are awaken and then become egotistical to the point of insanity. You are the first one I have ever shared posts with. Thank you for that.
Bless you and I do wish you the best on your journey and forgive me for my egoistical ramblings and harsh words. My ability to write and respond in a soft tone appears to be nonexistent at least on this blog. I apologize for that. But I do enjoy sharing with others about the mysteries of life. My final questions to you. Why the hostility? How can I be a threat to your awakened status?

Dueling Egos-Tit for Tat-Shit for Crap-This and That-Enough Already!

“Dueling Egos-Tit for Tat-Shit for Crap-This and That-Enough Already!”

This comment is interesting considering the book I am reading now from a recommendation from a friend. The book is entitled: “ghost hunters”. Anyhow a quote from a person doing research into the paranormal was a professor at an elitist university and a fellow so-called renowned professor (Darwinist) at this same university was trying to get him fired for even conducting this research.

This paranormal researcher was Hyslop a member of an organization created to conduct paranormal research with such respected members as William James stated the following: “Why is it so noble and respectable to find whence man came, (Darwinism) and so suspicious and dishonorable to ask and ascertain whither man goes?” Of course he was referring to the respect Darwinists get at universities compared to the condemnations the paranormal researchers were receiving not only here in America but in England.

These researchers lived over 100 years ago and I thought to myself we humans are still our same sweet closed-minded selves 100 years later. Protecting our cherished beliefs at all costs. Whether it is religious or materialistic beliefs if anyone dares to challenge our cherished beliefs (paradigms) we go into an attack mode or say things like “shit for crap” or even to the point of getting someone fired for even conducting such research. It has always been amazing to me how other people’s beliefs or even research that disagree with our beliefs are crap but ours of course are in the realm of truth.

Yes these researchers found fraud but they also found several mediums that brought forth phenomena and information that defied explanation. One such medium was Mrs. Piper, for 15 years she astounded them with her paranormal abilities, and the only explanation they could come up with (after ruling out telepathy and fraud) was indeed she was communicating with entities on the other side. And please before anyone makes excuses for her abilities read the book.

I can safely state after 16 years of reading and studying about the mysteries of life and communicating with atheists, ultra skeptics, and the religious on the Internet the quotes above and below are right on target.

“The greatest skeptic concerning paranormal phenomena is invariably the man who knows the least about them.” H.H. Price

May want to look in the mirror on this one William.

Have not read much from you about your ego.

If you learned nothing else from ACIM teachings and study groups it should have been how much control your ego has over your behavior.

The mere fact that you respond to me in the presumtive manner that you do has more to do with ego than insight.

Your words are meaningless word jugglery because you do not see that all your various concepts are ignorance.

Your fault is like many who think that they have true knowledge and that it is somehow obtained by means of their intellect.

A good place to start if you want to be able to see this is to engage in Self-inquiry and discover what all Buddhas have realized and that is that suffering and ignorance are both due to an absence of true knowledge - realization.

Then you will find out that there is no origin of ignorance. Just as there is no origin of darkness. Darkness is but an absence of light.

Then if you discover that there is no origin of ignorance, you will be able to see that all seeking is a result of ignorance - an absence of true knowledge.

Yours is a difficult journey as it is for most Buddhists, because you think that the ego and ignorance is something that must be eradicated.

Seek deeply and you will discover what the Buddha realized that ignorance is itself suffering and vice versa.

My conversations with you reveal to me that you have no understanding of what awakened means. In fact you have little or no comprehension of what real awakening actually is. Instead, you are filled with ideas and concepts that you have collected. You have played your same role and game ever since you first arrived here.

The mere reality that you go back and forth on this blog about ignorance and ego, says more about your ego than anything else.

You simply have no understanding or dirrect experience to be able to know what it is to be awakened.

It is becoming somehat evident that you may be delusional and mentality ill, and so my words and Tucson Bobs words to you are falling on blind eyes and deaf ears so to speak.

You may in fact be under a doctor’s care, I don't know, but it seems very probable. I say that because simply you consistently either ignore or fail to comprehend almost everything that I and other commenters say in response to your intellectual pseudo-spiritual mumbo-jumbo.

I am being very blunt here. My reasoning is that anyone that thinks and presumes they can judge whether or not someone else is awakened, and that responds like you do showing and even admitting that they are bereft of any direct experience or abidance in real Self-knowledge, is clearly delusional.

When you are on a spiritual search as YOU are, it is very easy to convince yourself that you think you know what it is to be awakened. Your ego is reluctant to admit that it is ignorant and that someone else may in fact be awakened before you. So your ego denies that anyone else within proximity could possibly be awakened. That is precisely your situation. Your ego is loathe to admit that someone else might be awakened, so it looks for any incongruities or discrepancies in behavior that it can find in order to discredit the awakening of another. And the fact is that there are no certain rules or behaviors which prove or disprove or that are indicative of one who is awakened or not awakened. That is what you fail to realize, and so that is why you are unable to judge whetehr another is is awakened. In fact, there is no one to become awakened, who 'becomes' awakened. Awakening is simply Self-knowledge. It is not something absent that is gained anew.

Your ego makes sure you let everyone in the world know that so-and-so could not possibly be "awakened" because so-and-so's behavior does not fit with your false concept of what awakened means or is. This is the power of the ego.

I am not amazed at all about the self-deception that other people evidence due to ignorance.

You state: "Most of my discussions with you and Tucson bob is intellectual in nature and I do not claim any type of awakened status."

OK, but that is most likely due to the simple fact that you admit that you are not yet awakened, correct? There is nothing wrong with being honest about one's self. However, to assume that you know or can judge where someone else is at, is not honest.

"Get back to me in about ten years" you said. You also then said: "Actually I have doing research into the paranormal for 16 years and thought I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you would be able to retain more than me. Guess that was a mistake."

Sarcasm will get you nowhere other than showing how full of shit you are. By the way, since you brought it up in an egoic attempt to one-up me, for your information I have been doing so-called "paranormal research" and have gained vast experience, for more than 40 years, and so you really have no advantage on me with regard to that. You are just playing another one of your pseudo-spiritual ego-games. Your interaction with me suggests more about your ego than anything else.

You said: "I was once going to go to India and sit in a cave and become self realized."

Guess you did not accomplish that.

"I have heard about people like you that go off to India and become convinced by some guru that you are awaken..."

The problem with that notion of yours is that I did not "become convinced by some guru" of anything. I went to India in 1969, but I was awakened some several years before I ever went to India. So again, as usually you really have no idea what you are talking about. That's pretty lame.

You said: "forgive me for my egoistical ramblings and harsh words."

I think youi just need to refrain from assuming that you know where other people are at, whether or not they are awakened, and all that. If you are not abiding in Self-knowledge, then you simply have no clue as to what "awakened" means or is.

You said: "My final questions to you. Why the hostility? How can I be a threat to your awakened status?"

There is no hostility. That is merely your misinterpretation. Nor is there any "threat". I suggest that you work on all these false presumptions that you have about me, and concepts about awakening, ignorance, ego, and so on.

Om Tat Sat


Brian:
As I've stated previously knowing that one will cease to exist is so horrific that at times I can scarcely breathe. What others believe or not believe has no meaning. Whatever is, is. It's either a yes or a no.
A yes is forever, a no is forever. For me there isn't the slightest consolation in existence apres death.
Elizabeth W

Tao: better comments this time thank you for the reply.

Can’t you see that this interchange in words this tit for tat is based in our egos. Everyone else on here does. A person would have to be an idiot to not recognize we are responding from our egos. It is self evident that the discourses we have been having are based in the egos desire to one up the other and in inner doubts.

This has been my fascination for many years the human mind and its ability to delude itself whether it is dialog on here or young men flying large airplanes thru tall buildings so they can have 72 virgins for eternity.

What I discovered was that if one stays with religious teachings it leads to delusional thinking about one’s state of mind. I spent years there and noticed religious teachings can be beneficial but limited. Also what I find interesting is everyone thinks their religion is thee religion. God help us all if you or I are examples of an awakened or self realized person.

My dialog with you has proven me correct in that evaluation about religion but you are not alone. The world is full of people that pick one religious teaching and make that teaching their truth and filter out all other information. This phenomena fascinates me how the human mind can do this. And when someone states something different than their cherished religious teaching they go almost insane and go into an attack mode.

Actually I did agree with one statement you made about what you call true knowledge I call understanding. Understanding comes thru realization not attainment or discovery or insight. The problem is we cannot trust someone to tell us if they have had a realization or awaken. The mind is way too self delusional.

I don’t think we yet know all the variables involved in how or why one can or does have a realization. One person can spend 40 years in a cave and become realized or not and another can have a realization almost out of the blue.

Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, self-inquiry, self-realization are all religious teachings and can be very beneficial but also very limiting. This is what makes life often so difficult but fascinating. We understand (not know about but understand) so little about ourselves or that that is.

One comment you made a while back got my attention. Here it is and it is exactly what most atheists’ state: “That may be your belief, but I am not into belief systems.”
I have never met a person or communicated with a person on the net that their beliefs did not control 99.9 percent of their behavior.

The mere fact that you have engaged in this long winded conversation with me validates your deep entrenchment into your beliefs that your cherish about self inquiry and yourself. I have touched a raw nerve into these cherished beliefs and into doubts you have about yourself and god only knows the karma I will have from that. Hopefully when the karma comes I will learn from it.

I think we are driving everyone on this blog crazy maybe we better shut things off. Too bad we cannot communicate in a more civilized manner. Why is it when I express what my research has revealed to me some people attack as if I had just stole their first-born? What difference does it make what I say or believe? I believe it is doubt and not understanding that causes one to get upset and attack when another states something different then their cherished beliefs. Realization on the other hand I suspect removes doubt and therefore there is no need to defend one's position.

Great that you take the time to reply. Much appreciated. I learn so much about the human mind from these interchanges.
God bless.

Can’t you see that this interchange in words this tit for tat is based in your ego.

Everyone else on here too.

A person would have to be an idiot to not recognize you are responding from your ego. It is self evident that the discourses you have been having are based in the egos desire to one up the other and in inner doubts.

This has been your fascination for many years the human mind and its ability to delude itself whether it is dialog on here or young men flying large airplanes thru tall buildings so they can have 72 virgins for eternity.

What you think that you discovered was that if one stays with religious teachings it leads to delusional thinking about one’s state of mind. You spent years there and assumed religious teachings can be beneficial but limited. Also what you think is interesting is that everyone thinks their religion is the religion. God help you if you think you are an example of an awakened or self realized person.

Your dialog with me has proven correct that evaluation about your concepts about religion, but you are not alone. The world is full of people like you that have certain concepts about spirituality and life and make those concepts their truth and filter out or reject all other information from those like myself. And when someone states something different than their cherished concepts, they react with insane presumptions and judgments.

And also I do not agree with one statement you made about what you call understanding. You said "understanding comes thru realization not attainment or discovery or insight." The problem seems to be that you are more concerned as to whether someone else is or is not awakened, than if you yourself have realization or awakening. Your mind is way too oriented in duality and judgment of others.

You are too concerned with all the variables involved in how and why you think that someone else can or cannot have realization. One person can spend 40 years in a cave and not become realized, and another can have realization instantaneously. And there are also no absolute indicators as to who has "realization" or who does not have "realization" as you put it.

Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam etc are all religious teachings and can be very beneficial but also very limiting. The activity of Self-inquiry and so-called "self-realization" are not religious teachings. Self-inquiry is a process which can happen either naturally with any effort or deliberately with effort.

You say "we understand (not know about but understand) so little about ourselves or that that is." Yet you utterly fail to realize that what this actually means is that this is but a confession that YOU yourself "understand so little" about yourself, and "so little" about others as well.

You also have made the assumption about everyone you have met "on the net"... that they all have beliefs and that their beliefs "control 99.9 percent of their behavior".

The mere fact that you have engaged in this "long winded conversation" with me validates your deep entrenchment into your erroneous beliefs that you have about self inquiry and other people. I have none of the "cherished beliefs" that you think and presume that I have, nor do I have any such doubts that you very mistakenly presume that I have.

You also have a presumption or belief that you will have "karma" coming from that. So you are clearly full of various beliefs about yourself and about others like me, which have absolutely no evidence or basis in any fact.

You also think that "you are driving everyone on this blog crazy", and apparently have some anxiety about that.
You pretend to have a "civilized manner" but yet you have no respect whatsoever for other peoples truth. You constantly project your own ideas, concepts, presumptions, beliefs, and judgements upon others.

You seem to think that your so-called "paranormal research" is the last word.

You erroneously believe that it is doubt and not understanding that causes others to criticise your comments when they state something different then your cherished ideas and beliefs.

You also think various beliefs such as that "Realization" means that one should and must have no position about anything, and especially if someone's position disagrees with yours. This is an indication on your part of a significantlack of spiritual maturity and insight.

I think that unfortunately you have no direct experience of real Self-knowledge, and so therefore you basically judge everyone and everthing from an egoic point of view. This also is why you have so many false presumptions about ignorance, realization, spirituality, and where you think other people (like myself and others) are at.

Until true awakening actually occurs in your case (and even then), you really haven't any clue about where anyone else is at. And so you foolishy continue to assume that you do.

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