Sant Mat’s “five holy names” aren’t so holy

Today Tucson Bob left a comment that got me thinking about my own evolving attitude toward mantra meditation. He said, in part:

I will say that Sant Mat meditation, at least the basic technique of simran (mantra repetition), seems to me to have a dulling, dumbing-down effect that seems to interfere with intuitive perception.

Imagine you are in a wilderness at night. It is pitch black and you know there is a predator out there. All your being, all your senses are fully in the moment listening for some sound or movement to indicate where that predator is. You are fully absorbed in the present situation, in the immediacy of your current reality. No simran is necessary at this time and would actually be a hinderance to full awareness of what is. Your mind is totally quiet absorbing the sounds of the night because of the urgency of the situation. It is alert, ready.

This is a good non-meditation. Be fully present in whatever you are doing. The mind will wander off. No matter, it can't be helped. When you are fully aware again, just be that way.

Tucson Bob and I are pretty much members of the same Sant Mat meditation class. He was initiated into the Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) branch of this Eastern faith in 1970. Me, in 1971. He flamed out of the movement after about twenty years. Me, after more than thirty.

Between us we've done a hell of a lot of mantra meditation. Like all RSSB initiates, we were given a mantra that consisted of "Five Holy Names" to repeat.

The mantra was supposed to be kept super duper secret. And I did, along with every other initiate I knew. But now, with the rise of the Internet, you can do a Google search and find the names easily. They've also become fodder for what I hope is a satirical web site (but it's hard to tell the difference between spiritual satire and seriousness these days).

The names supposedly are holy because they refer to the rulers, or defining characteristics, of five metaphysical regions of the cosmos: Sahans-dal-kanwal, Trikuti, Daswan Dwar, Bhanwar Gupha, and Sach Khand. Sant Mat practitioners believe that the names are charged with spiritual power by the initiating guru.

They're supposed to be repeated throughout the day, as well as during much of one's meditation time. However, like Tucson Bob said, open awareness of reality that's actually present isn't facilitated by concentrating on a mantra that is intended to lead to another hypothesized realm of existence.

So over the years I gradually became less rigid about my own approach to mantra meditation. Even when I was a RSSB true believer, I experimented with using just one of the five names as a mantra. I found that one was as good as five when it came to quieting my mind.

What's holy about a word? Words aren't reality. "Fire" isn't hot. "Water" isn't wet. These are just terms that stand for something else that does have the ascribed qualities.

I've written some other posts about mantra meditation, here, here, here, and here. The last one dealt with whether mantra meditation is a waxing on or a waxing off (using Mr. Miyagi's karate training language). I said:

I believe that mantra meditation can lead to a clearer view of reality. Inside of my head, I feel like I'm getting closer to the essence of life, existence, and consciousness when I sit on my meditation cushion in darkness and silence, repeat a single syllable, and become aware of what remains. Outside of my head, I feel more connected to other people and the world when my mind is filled with the simple unifying sound of a mantra rather than many divisive thoughts.

For a long time, though, I repeated a mantra that had a significant meaning to me. I realize now that this meaning was like Mr. Miyagi's wax. Every time I repeated the mantra I was rubbing something onto my consciousness, rather than clearing something off.

Basic rule of car cleaning: you don't use the same cloth to clean the wax off that you used to put the wax on. Applying this principle to meditation, I've come to the conclusion that the more meaningless a mantra is, the better. It shouldn't be associated with a person, theology, metaphysics, or goal that has any meaning.

Churches have stained glass windows. Those images are there to capture your attention and prevent you from seeing what is, in reality, outside the church's confines. A mantra with meaning has an equivalent effect. Every time you repeat it, you're placing a conceptual filter between you and what is really there.

True enough, in my experience. But I'm coming to see that Tucson Bob's there's a predator analogy is apt. When we're really open to clear and present reality, we don't want any self-generated sounds or images, meaningless or not, coming between us and whatever is out there.

However, failing complete emptiness I still believe that having a single meaningless sound in my mind is better than the largely random voluminous chatter that all too often fills my psyche. When I need to think in words, I should think in words. Most of the time, I don't. A simple mantra serves to remind me to shut the fuck up.

This is a crude summary of the central message of one of my favorite books about meditation, "Open Mind, Open Heart" by Thomas Keating. Whenever I pick it up, which is often, my churchless self is struck by the subtitle: "the contemplative dimension of the Gospel."

Well, I'll take inspiration wherever I find it. I like Keating's attitude toward repeating a word, or words in meditation. This isn't an exercise in concentration, but rather intention.

The sacred word, whatever one you may choose, is sacred not because of its meaning, but because of its intent. It expresses your intention to open yourself to God, the Ultimate Mystery, who dwells within you. It is a focal point to return to when you notice you are becoming interested in the thoughts that are going by.

…The chief thing that separates us from God is the thought that we are separated from Him. If we get rid of that thought, our troubles will be greatly reduced.

I'm not big on the word "God," so I mentally substitute "Tao" or "Reality" when I read these passages. "Him" becomes "It." Aside from that, the Catholic Keating and the churchless me are on the same spiritual page.

There's nothing holy about a word, or name. Like I said, it's hole-ness that we should be seeking, not holiness – natural open awareness of what's really going on, not an artificial religious imagining.

Comments

[anonymous]

After I got to know the RSSB holy names with out being initiated from the given links, my RSSB initiated husband thinks we have done some sort of blasphemy. Though he didn't confirm that those were the holy names, as he is supposed to keep the vow of not disclosing names.

No RSSB 'religion' is not dogmatic.

[Seeking]

Have you not heard of respect? A surgeon has been given the training and instuction, guidance to perform his role. If you 'happened' to come across his tools - do you really think you could perform the 'surgery'?

[mack]

the santmat mantra is a means to an end not the end itself. What differentiates this meditation from others is its emphasis on the inner sounds. During meditation some time is given to simran and some time to ´listening´ to the sound. The time that one devotes on each depends on one´s ability to focus and retain his-her attention on the eye focus while the mind is absorbed in the inner sound. At the beggining years more simran is required and less ´listening´ is adviced, but as the meditator progresses on the path and learns his-her body better and his-her mind better then the meditator can begin alternating the time that is given to each practise.As the literature emphases the two should never co-practised.
with time the meditator will find the most comfortable pose, the most comfortable place, time and method that enables him to reach the threashold of the blue starry sky. Sleep will naturally be reduced by then,and even so, sleep should become very very light. An acute sensitivity slowly develops through the years. After much meditation, the meditator should really not require any simran to bring his-her meditation to focus behind the eyes. Simran then is used as a ºprotectionº when the person is amongst crowds with extremely negative ºvibesº, when in places with a lot of noice, or when within the mind negative thoughts arise unexpectatly. Its nothing more than a reminder to come behind the eyes. When the shabd is heard more, and then only, will the words really gain authority. When the shabd becomes stronger within the meditator, then all the thoughts of the meditator become stronger, not just of simran. Simran really means remember, and it is to remind the meditator to continue the effort to transend and elevate his-her awareness more and more, without never beeing satisfied with his-her the spiritual situation.. At the end there is only ºlisteningº. Simran is a means to an end and not the end. As the end is reached and the spiritual powers of the meditator are developed, simran gains more authoritative ºpowerº, always within its domain.
When in the middle of a dark jungle,one shoud act depending on one´s ability to focus or hear the sound.A dark forrest is great place to meditate
Two and half hours of meditation is the suggested begining time for meditation, and after years it should increase significantly. What should remain constant is the desire by the person to reach the truth as if he is under water grasping for air.

Give a candy to an intelectual says Sawan, and he will start describing its flavors, his feelings and start asking where and how u found it. Give it to a simple man and he will just smile and enjoy it.

[tao]

Mack,

Your comment really consists of nothing more than the same stale old santmat & RS meditation dogma and boring rhetoric that we (most of us) are already quite familiar with. In other words, you have brought nothing new to the table. The same old same old just doesn't fly here.

So if you wish to elucidate, preach, and discourse upon the various details of the santmat/RS system of shabda yoga meditation as you seem to want to do, then I would suggest that a much more appropriate place would be a formal RS satsang meeting where you are among other satsangis - other fellow Radha Soami cult followers, believers, initiates, and practitioners.

[mack]

talk to poetry with poets, only the sick can sympathise with the sick

[Dave]

The key functionality of the mantra actually different from what you have described. The five names do have a metaphysical significance, but one is not supposed to think about that while saying them internally. The purpose of the mantra is simply to evoke memory in the mind of the meditator towards the Master.

I know that you come from an RSSB background. Forgive me if I mention there have been some other branches of the lineage. I was fortunate to have been initiated by one of those "other" Gurus back in 1983. So we have probably been on the Path for about the same amount of time.

The difference between my inner experience and yours is quite profound. I hope you do not take offense, but you know, if your Master had been competent, you would have started having inner experiences within a few years. The function of the simran becomes much more evident later in meditation. As I said, the key functionality is keeping the mind occupied with positive energy, positive memories and mental connections. Of themselves the words are of no importance whatsoever and it does not matter who knows them. If an uninitiated person (or a person initiated by a false Master) chants the five names, nothing will happen. There might be a stilling of the mind, as can be achieved with any mantra such as OM or as in Transcendental Meditation. But otherwise, it is not really useful in itself. What is useful is remembrance of the Master.

This is demonstrated in a number of ways in the literature but I only speak from personal experience, only what I have actually seen for myself. In my experience the Master does all the work. The meditator does not do anything except attend, watch, listen. Everything happens due to the Master. Nothing happens due to the efforts of the meditator. So the "stilling effect" of the simran is truly a "dulling" as you had quoted. This is a good thing. The mind is too active in contemporary people in order to achieve the necessary concentration. So, some dulling down in this regard no doubt helps on the Path. One has to be quiet to hear.

Kind regards,

DRS

[Tucson Bob]

DRS,

May I inquire which of the "other" RS gurus initiated you. In your view, which of the RS gurus are false. How would you know this?

This is not intended as a challenge or to open a debate, and I will not be offended by your opinion. I'm just interested and probably won't have much of a comment.

[Rakesh Bhasin]

THOSE WHO HAVE LEFT THE PATH ARE PROBABLY DOING MORE SIMRAN THAN THOSE WHO ARE STILL ON THE PATH. AS THEY WERE DOING SIMRAN FOR SUCH A LONG TIME, IT HAS LEFT A DENT ON THEIR MIND. EVEN WITH BEST OF THEIR EFFORTS THEY CAN NOT GET RID OF IT. THEIR PRESENCE ON THIS BLOG IS A REVEALING EVIDENCE............REPEATITION OF FIVE HOLY WORDS IS NOT THE ONLY WAY OF SIMRAN. YOUR ACHIEVEMENT BY LEAVING THE PATH WILL ALWAYS BE A SOURCE OF INSPIRATION FOR ME AND HELP ME TO FOLLOW THE PATH MORE FERVENTLY.

IT IS MY RECENT EXPERIENCE............

PEASE DO NO HESITATE TO ABUSE ME IF YOU SO DESIRE.............

[tao]

OK.... You're abused.

[tao]

DRS,

You said: "The purpose of the mantra is simply to evoke memory in the mind of the meditator towards the Master."

But hat is not the teaching of Santmat. The teaching is that the mantra is an aid in collecting and focusing the attention at the eye center. Furthermore, and contrary to your statement, the mantra is composed of sanskrit terms because the meaning is linked to the sound. So for you say that one is advised to ignore, or not be aware of the real meaning of the mantra syllables and words is incorrect. Indians generally know what the mantra means, so why should'nt westerners. Your statement is absurd.

"I was fortunate to have been initiated by one of those "other" Gurus back in..."

Well I don't consider that to be so "fortunate" at all. All, yes ALL of these Santmat cult-gurus, regardless of whichever branch they represent, are all full of pseudo-spiritual crapola. You read right.

"The difference between my inner experience and yours is quite profound."

Nobody gives a damn about your stupid "inner experience" Mister Smarty-ass.

"...if your Master had been competent, you would have started having inner experiences within a few years."

Are you as lame as you appear to be? Competant you say? Competant at being a frau maybe. Your so-called "inner experiences" don't mean diddley-squat.

"As I said, the key functionality is keeping the mind occupied with positive energy, positive memories and mental connections."

Sure... if you wish to remain in maya, that is.

"Of themselves the words are of no importance whatsoever and it does not matter who knows them."

That's totally ignorant rubbish. If they are of no importance to you, then dispense with them as I have. Btw dude, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

"If an uninitiated person (or a person initiated by a false Master)"

All, yes ALL of your so-called "Masters" are false.

"What is useful is remembrance of the Master."

Bullshit. Don't give us that "Master" bullshit. You are such a guru-cult moron. Wake-up dude.

"I only speak from personal experience, only what I have actually seen for myself."

You don't even have a clue, Mr Ego-puff.

"In my experience the Master does all the work."

Like I said, you're a guru-cult moron.

"Everything happens due to the Master."

You're psychotic too.

"...a "dulling" as you had quoted. This is a good thing. ... some dulling down in this regard no doubt helps..."

Said by a real dull-brained dullard. Only someone like you could say such dumb-ass nonsense.

Btw Mister DRS, your goofy Santmat rhetoric isn't impressing anyone here.

Next...

[Manjit]

Dear DRS, I came across your comments here and found them strongly disagreeable, and indicative on many different levels of an ignorance of both the mechanics of the RS phenomena and, more importantly, any kind of genuine 'spiritual' understanding.

You wrote: "I know that you come from an RSSB background. Forgive me if I mention there have been some other branches of the lineage. I was fortunate to have been initiated by one of those "other" Gurus back in 1983. So we have probably been on the Path for about the same amount of time.

The difference between my inner experience and yours is quite profound. I hope you do not take offense, but you know, if your Master had been competent, you would have started having inner experiences within a few years. The function of the simran becomes much more evident later in meditation. As I said, the key functionality is keeping the mind occupied with positive energy, positive memories and mental connections. Of themselves the words are of no importance whatsoever and it does not matter who knows them. If an uninitiated person (or a person initiated by a false Master) chants the five names, nothing will happen. There might be a stilling of the mind, as can be achieved with any mantra such as OM or as in Transcendental Meditation. But otherwise, it is not really useful in itself. What is useful is remembrance of the Master.

This is demonstrated in a number of ways in the literature but I only speak from personal experience, only what I have actually seen for myself. In my experience the Master does all the work. The meditator does not do anything except attend, watch, listen. Everything happens due to the Master. Nothing happens due to the efforts of the meditator."

Well, if you look closely at the obvious inferences in this post, that the RSSB guru is false whilst your (unnamed) guru is for real and the criteria you are able to judge this from, you will find innumerable inconsistencies and descrepancies.

Firstly, it is interesting that from your post above, you can ascertain with almost 100% certainty you are from a Kirpal lineage (as apposed to any of the many other RS lineages). I would venture this is because of the narrative myth Kirpal created and repeatedly reinforced about himself in regards to his 'genuine' mastership, specifically in relation to the 'false' masters who retained the vast majority of the sangat at Beas. Now, don't get me wrong, almost the entire history of RS and all it's lineages is based on narrative myths. This is the HUMAN way. And, if we look at this whole saga from a human level, it is not too difficult to understand why Kirpal seemingly obssesed with this narrative, and created such a dualistic, conceptual & hierarchical view of the 'spiritual path' (with himself conveniently at the top!). To be honest, not many of the RS branches have been very good at moving away from such a form of 'spirituality', except perhaps Chand.

The problem with such a literal myopic interpretation and conceptual definition of 'reality' is that it fails to take into account the subjective nature and ultimately illusory nature of all dualistic concepts and phenomena. What is 'real' for one is not neccessarily 'real' for another. The lack of this fundamental understanding in so many satsangis suggests to me that perhaps these so-called gurus are more concerned with reinforcing their position & status on a conceptual and dualistic level, than guiding their disciples into non-dual understanding?

Regarding real and false masters, five-names and spiritual experiences. I believe you make a false assumption (based on your aquaintance with the Kirpal myths) that RSSB initiates do not have experiences. Please remember that RSSB has the biggest sangat in the world by far. This increases the percentage of people who got involved by coercion, chance, on a whim etc due to the popularity of the group. It becomes a religion by neccessity due to it's SIZE. Also, please remember Gurinder has advised not to discuss RS on the web, so 'good' satsangis are probably not sharing so much. In any case, I have known people in RSSB who heard sound (and other experiences), who heard sound on the day of initiation, who heard sound within weeks of meditation, who heard years after initiation, and those who never heard or saw anything. It is, quite obviously, a mixture of all types.

So, your initial assumption about RSSB and false masters is, in my experience, completely incorrect.

Also, there are Kirpal initiates who have meditated for years and years and got absolutely nothing. This is an undeniable FACT. Again, your essential point is false.

Also, there are people who have never been initiated who have heard and seen 'inner' things that most RS initiates can only dream about. This is, in my experience, undeniable FACT.

Also, there are so many overtly false gurus (many of which in the Kirpal lineage imo!) that can *apparently* generate all kinds of 'spiritual' experiences in their disiples. I think it more prudent to investigate other avenues of thought than consider some dude in a turban is God, despite his sticking his dick in your mouth during initiation, just because you see some light and hear some sound when you close your eyes? That's almost as ridiculous as voting for Bush just because I'm scared of terrorism. It seems like the obvious choice, but on closer consideration and despite Bush's claims, it is seen that was precisely what I shouldn't have done to ease my fears. And so it is with the light and sound of RS gurus. By falsely limiting the infinite and Absolute into experiential phenomena and conceptual paradigms, you miss the point and value of the Sound anyway. It is like the RS gurus give you a gold coin to distract you from the gold mountain you're standing on.

Also, the five-names evidentially do not help much in easing delusion. We can see this from the number of 'masters' that clamour for position when one passes away. Why isn't their inner master telling them to stop pretending? Because the inner master is only an aspect of our own sub consciousness, no master can come from outside. But that is deeper insight into the RS mechanics than most are able or interesting in grasping.

Anyways, good luck with the whole thing, and ask Sat Purush to have mercy on me when you meet him....

[Rakesh Bhasin]

Dear Tao,
Okay!.... I am amused.

[tao]

A fine job Manjit. Thanks for elaborating upon all the flaws within DRS's post. I saw the same inherent problems with his position, claims, and lack of understanding that you did... I just wasn't in the mood to spend much time addressing and articulating all of his typical nonsense presumptions, hypocrisy, and his 'my guru is better than your guru' garbage.

Hope all is going well for you. I haven't seen you around for awile. Send me an e-mail sometime. My best wishes.

[Manjit]

Hello Tao, how's it going? I hope all is well with you.

Hey, I was actually going to email you a month or two ago to come good on a promise I made you, but I didn't have your email, and I don't really wish to post over at RSS anymore, at least anything 'mystical' related!

I went to a Tony Parsons 'satsang' in June-ish. I was going to email you to give you my take, as you requested way back when! I even asked a question, and got probably the only abrubt and dismissive response of anyone in the entire room, for which I was quite chuffed :o)

If you'd like to know my take, email me or provide your email again? Must warn you though, it's not going to be a positive take at all on him and his message...

In a nutshell, his 'realisation' and what he tries to teach is, imo, quite obviously more in the head and intellectual than the Vibrancy of 'genuine' realisation.

Still, that's just my personal take.

Anyways, take care Bro....

[Manjit]

PS - the 'satsang' was so bad, I actually walked out half way through, and waited outside for an hour for my friends (OshoRobbins et al) to come out!

Really, it was THAT bad! I don't even walk out on bad movies, let alone satsangs!

:o)

[tao]

Manjit,

Hey thanks man. Good to hear from you. I appreciate your honesty and observations. I would definitely like to hear the details about the TP talk you attended. Please know that I am no defender of any guru. And I have never seen or met TP. All I know about him is from his books and CDs. He makes some good points, but I had a suspicion that he was somewhat like you have inferred. I think perhaps he probably serves a good purpose in encouraging some people to get beyond all their presumptons and conditioning about spirituality and realization, but that he himself is still "on a bit of a trip" as we used to say in the old days.

So since I am way over here in California, and probably won't ever get to check out TP directly by myself, I would really love to hear your insightful take on TP and his talk session meeting. Btw, what does OshoRobbins and your other friends think about TP?

You (and Osho) can e-mail me via my old RSS group id which is "swamianami" (at) yahoo.com

Get in touch and we'll continue this discussion via e-mail. I will look for your message. My best wishes.

[kenneth uwadi]

can you tell me the chant or mantra that is the highest of all the mantra or chants ?

[the elephant]

Tao: " He makes some good points"

(This post is addressed in general - not to Tao in particular. His comment only initiated the whole thing ...)
Is making some good points enough for someone who approaches some teachings for help with respect to her/his suffering and insatisfaction?

Because of globalization - books, translations, commentaries, etc. are more available than ever - and the internet, any deluded chap can memorize and repeat 'perennial truth(s)' and sound, on average, ok or like he knows what he is talking about. A good articulation of these truths is now widely available and learnable. It is also a factor why the same chap can also imagine about anything regarding his/her own realization ...

1000 thousand years ago or even 150 years, to learn or memorize, or even come up by yourself with, a coherent and decent articulation of such message was a lot more difficult ...

To repeat ad nauseam that "you are perfect as you are", "there is nothing to gain", "You are that", "what is an object cannot ultimately be what knows", etc.
do not entail any actual understanding. Any clever fellow can learn them from the net and widely available books and start his/her satsangs, smile and repeat these teachings ... and even be relatively successful at it. In particular, when this person sticks to the simple - from the point of view of the imagination - as the 'pearls' aforementioned, and disengages anyone who questions them ("It is only the mind seeking answers, drop the mind (sic) and the search for answers will drop as well" ); not because they are not true, but simply because they are incomplete in a way. As we seen quite often, it is not difficult to make a business from it and abuse the intentions of people who are simply looking for a little bit of help after all.

[Tucson]

Elephant makes a very good point that any well-read person with some imagination and the ability to memorize can parrot perennial truths. They can do this so skillfully that they become teachers even if they do not truly embody what they teach. But, is this really a bad thing?

Ultimately, all words are misleading as far as what infinity might be, pointers at best to what it isn't. But they may come together is such a way that they serve as a catalyst for someone's realization. If you like the way a teacher's words affect you, why not go with them until they no longer serve you? No one can give you the truth, but they may be just what you need to instigate your own self discovery.

The words may be "find the face you had before you were born" or maybe the Beatle's "I am the Walrus, goo goo ga joob."

[the elephant]

Tucson: " But, is this really a bad thing?"
This is an excellent question. I really don't know. It is like answering the question "is deception/delusion a bad thing?" With respect to reality: Nope! With respect to a particular presence, quite often, since it simply perpetuates an unfolding of deceiving situations and experiences, thus suffering ... but sometimes the same deception insulates the same presence against further suffering ...

But again, we never learn best about ourselves than when we suffer ... until there is no more need for suffering ... then it does not matter ... as I say I think no one can know ...

[Julian]

This site is the most banal, shallow, and clueless, bit of garbage I've ever seen.

[tAo]

The previous comment by Julian is the most banal, shallow, and clueless bit of garbage I've ever seen.

[Brian]

Julian, thank you! I love being best at something! If you come across a "banal, shallow, and clueless" blogging award, please nominate me. I've got a place on my bookcase where a trophy would fit perfectly.

[Robin]

I'm glad to know that there are still people who see sense and have had the courage to break off from this cult.
Experiences don't mean a thing. All these so called experiences occur within the boundary of thought and
does not forward your spiritual progress in any way. Fast for a week and you will have the most profound experiences that you never knew.

[kenneth uwadi]

chanting the names of gods or godesses seems to be the highest chant .can someone disprove me?

[Robert Paul Howard]

Why should anyone bother?

Robert Paul Howard

[Brian]

kenneth, can you prove what you said? I say that chanting the names of the elves who live under a stone in my yard is the highest chant. Can you disprove me?

[namjap]

Interesting debate is going on at sikhism.us
on the need/no need of physical guru.
The thread:
Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth - means that our eternal guru is Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

[Sam]

Anything that requires self discipline or sacrficies seem to scare you guys. Being a good human being and taking responsibility in your actions is the main point of Sant Mat. Sikhism had True Gurus till people decided to eat meat and drink (which none of the Gurus ever did). I take this as a pathetic attempt in order to undermine a path that requires one to be in tune with his innerself. As for the author i willing to bet that he got in over his head and now is taking cheap shots to try to feel better about being a horrible santsangi. I will rather be a good human than go confess my sins or pay for my sins to be removed. Sant Mat intiates selectively and doesnt charge for discourses such as other "gurus", They have blood donations, free hospitals,meals and other services for the unfortunate yet Christainty and Islam that has cause massive war and genocide thrives. Open your eyes and realize that this guy is trying to justify his leaving of Sant Mat.

[Jen]

the elephant,

Just reading through this thread, you said - "But again, we never learn best about ourselves than when we suffer ... until there is no more need for suffering ... then it does not matter ... as I say I think no one can know ..."
Posted by: the elephant | October 28, 2007 at 11:33 AM

We change over time and I was wondering if you could comment on this. If we come to a time when there is no more need for suffering, do you think this is a choice one makes or it happens when the time is right and suffering lifts automatically?

Thanks for any reply (hope one of the trolls doesn't do its pretend thing :)

[tAo]

Sam,

You are wrong on all points. No one (here) is telling you not to follow Sant Mat. No one is trying to undermine your path or any path. And you have no idea of the extent of "self discipline or sacrficies" had by the other folks here, nor are we scared by sadhana. Moreover, the author is not at all "in over his head", nor is he "taking cheap shots to try to feel better". And he is, without a doubt, a far more real and more experienced satsangi than you'll ever know. If you were anywhere near as sincere and as experienced as he is, you would see and know that. If you don't wish to read opinions that may be critical of religion or Sant Mat, then why are you here? If you have something postive to say in defense of Sant Mat, then do so. But don't just ridicule the author or the skeptics without any sbstance, basis or valid arguement.

[JAP]

tAo said "No one is trying to undermine your path or any path"
What planet are you living on? This blog is highly anti RSSB and other religions, dont tell me you think it is PRO Sant Mat? I cannot believe that even tAo can be that stupid!
You state that Sam has no idea of the sacrifices by those on this blog, do you have any idea of sacrifices that may have been made by Sam?
I am really interested to know how you evaluate the experience of a Satsangi and can make judgements as to who is the more experienced?
We read your comments and opinions in the vague hope that one of them may contain something worth reading, so far, no luck, but we can all live in hope, right?

[tAo]

JAP,

What planet are YOU living on?

The fact that some opinions on this blog are critical of RSSB (and religion), is in no way "trying to undermine" that path.

People can criticise paths and cults like the RSSB, and yet not be trying to "undermine" that path. Just because someone (like Brian or myself) points out flaws and problems in a path and its beliefs and dogma, does not mean that critics (and their criticisms) purpose is to undermine that path. If something is true and factual, or false and illusory, then pointing that out is not necessarily an attempt to undermine anything. It is simply trying to get to the truth of the matter.

Obviously you are uncomfortable with both scrutiny and criticism.

This blog is neither anti-Santmat nor pro-Santmat. It is about seeking the real truth (beyond the dogma) while embracing the mystery.

"You state that Sam has no idea of the sacrifices by those on this blog"

-- That is correct.

"do you have any idea of sacrifices that may have been made by Sam?"

-- No I don't... but I did not say, like Sam did, that others here have no discipline or sacrifices. And thats the point. Sam assumed that the rest of us here have no disciple or sacrifice, in other words no sadhana and no tapasya... which fyi is a very faulty assumption and judgement.

"I am really interested to know how you evaluate the experience of a Satsangi and can make judgements as to who is the more experienced?"

-- I didn't... Sam was the one who did. I simply indicated that others here (namely Brian and I and a couple others) have a great deal of experience.

"We read your comments and opinions in the vague hope that one of them may contain something worth reading, so far, no luck"

-- Personal ridicule and sarcasm will get you nowhere. You basically know nothing about me. Why don't you try offering something more constuctive, instead of cheap personal ridicule, sarcasm, and personal insults. So as to help you realize the error of this sort of thing, I will reflect your last comment back to you:

JAP, I read your comments and opinions in the vague hope that one of them may contain something worth reading, but so far, no luck.

Now how does that sound to you JAP? It doesn't hold much positve value, does it?

[JAP]

tAo
to answer your last question, how does it sound to me?
Sounds like you are copying my words
Well, we have learnt something about you,
You demonstrate a lack of creativity in your response, if best you can do is either blurt out garbage or repeat others like some featherless parrot, (I assume you do not have feathers?) then you cannot expect your comments to be taken too seriously, hence I cannot be bothered to read the rest of your non creative garbage

[jarendra]

tAo the churchless spin doctor, and the Brian Hines 'commander in chief' RSSB bouncer and protector of the cult, doing his utmost to plug all holes with his puny imbecilical thumbs, problem is he's running out of fingers and thumbs, soon this dyke is going to be springing leaks all over the place, as is pretty prevalent right about now.

Simply because these cult followers of their own design are unable to recognize reality at face value, they churlishly proclaim in all anxiety how profoundly self righteous and pathetically enlightened they are, whilest spewing as much profanity and derision as they can muster through their profound enlightened and clenched teeth.

[JAP]

Jarenda
I know tAo is infuriating, but please do not stoop to his level. Your comments are valid and gradually, Brian and his cult is beginning to lose ground through their own poor responses, the ignoring of probing questions, and general failure to stand up to criticism. In a couple of days, using a few different names and IP addresses so as to disable Brian's ability to ban and delete me, I have been able to cast a light for all to see (except Brian and his henchmen) into the dark recesses of this pit. tAo has shown how nasty he can be, as well as clearly demonstrating the illusion in which he lives. Brian is a bit stronger, but also losing it over a few words typed on his blog. He is now changing posting policy and clearly getting steamed up and angry, why? because someone is disturbing his little hole in the ground in which he lives.
The weaker readers of this blog sit quiet, the banned are watching from the sidelines with glee.

[jarendra]

Problem is with these churchless cult followers is they are quick to offer any amount of expletively ordained and misinformed criticism of any religion or spiritual practices, in the name of 'free thinking churchlessness' to any lengths that their self proclaimed lack of vision or understanding might take them too, in other words blatantly following the puny dictates of their very own infertile and self aggrandized minds.

However the worst part of it all is they can spew and rant about other systems of belief, to the extent of actually believing their own self proclaimed bullshit, but when theirs is challenged straight out, they run duck and hide like the chicken shit double standard cowards they actually are.

[jarendra]

You doing just fine JAP , I done my bit here, I seen the two timing two faced double standard bullshit here for far too long, now I'm bowing out again, and leave you to handle this cult for whatever its worth,.. which is hardly much to say the very least.

So long

[JAP]

Hi Jarenda
What Brian and his henchmen do not yet understand is why I would spend time trying to make my point. Well, perhaps it is also that they do not understand my point, and it seems, yours as well.
It would be easier to simply leave them to their little worlds and get on with more important things, but for me, its a really interesting exercise in human behavior. Its not about the subject of this blog, it was at first, I was really hoping to hold some intelligent debate when I first came on here (long long before walker, I even know Brian from outside this blog but he has no clue who I am as I have been careful to hide my identity) but quickly discovered that this was not the place. A short while ago, I wanted to try to understand belief systems for a research project and felt one really good way to see practical demonstration of belief in human beings was to experiment with a group who consider that they do not have a belief system, reject religions and are willing to engage. This group certainly like to engage, but interestingly their behavior and responses are similar to fundamentalist religious groups. For me, its fascinating !!

[tAo]

More personal insults, derision, and derogatory name-calling in comments posted by the now well known liar and troll who goes by Jarendra / JAP / Walker / Ashy:

"tAo the churchless spin doctor"

"Brian Hines 'commander in chief' RSSB bouncer and protector of the cult"

"with his puny imbecilical thumbs"

"these cult followers [...] they churlishly proclaim [...] how profoundly self righteous and pathetically enlightened they are"

"spewing as much profanity and derision as they can muster"

Posted by: jarendra | August 10, 2009 at 03:25 AM

"Brian and his cult"

"In a couple of days, using a few different names and IP addresses so as to disable Brian's ability to ban and delete me"

"the dark recesses of this pit"

"Brian is [...] losing it [...] getting steamed up and angry"

"because someone is disturbing his little hole in the ground in which he lives"

Posted by: JAP | August 10, 2009 at 03:33 AM

"these churchless cult followers"

"they are quick to offer any amount of expletively ordained and misinformed criticism of any religion or spiritual practices, in the name of 'free thinking churchlessness' to any lengths that their self proclaimed lack of vision or understanding might take them too, in other words blatantly following the puny dictates of their very own infertile and self aggrandized minds."

-- So says Jarendra/JAP/Walker/Ashy

"their own self proclaimed bullshit"

"they run duck and hide like the chicken shit double standard cowards they actually are"

Posted by: jarendra | August 10, 2009 at 03:35 AM

"JAP, I done my bit here, I seen the two timing two faced double standard bullshit"

Posted by: jarendra | August 10, 2009 at 03:54 AM

[JAP]

tAo
thanks for posting our comments again, it means if Brian deletes our comments, at least you have preserved them for others !
At last, tAo does something useful

[carla evonne]

i cant believe that i found this site. it has been revealed to me at a time when i was really going thru a spiritual crisis. my guru is Charan Singh. however the question of Christ started to pursue me with relentless fervor.
i found a site the mysteries of sant mat or something like that written by the "honest guru", which totally eased my mind. however i havent been able to remember the exact name of this site and cant find it again. well i guess the ease of mind was all i was supposed to experience.

[Rajeev]

A system is not all important although it will start you on the road of understanding. I remember one saint telling me not to get locked into the system, or become rigid. It is the presence that is all important. Sit within that presence. You may chant a mantra until the fat lady sings but it may become meaningless. Remember it is our connection to God, to all that is, to have that mystical union with that oversoul. Chant with a deep meaningfulness within your heart and sense it deep within soul. Mean it from the depths of you and then see where your spiritual exercise takes you.
I do not mean to write this as though it is the only truth. There are no absolutes.

[matt peatman]

you have way too much time on your hands. get real

[Blogger Brian]

matt, actually I'm a very busy guy.

Can't spend a lot of time responding to your comment because I'm scheduled to go on a dog walk right now, according to my four-legged appointments secretary. Then I've got to make coffee and write a post for my other blog, before heading to a New Year's Eve movie.

Doesn't all that sound real? Best of luck with writing blog comments in 2011 that make more sense. (The only way for you to go is up.)

[Les Reynolds]

I am so sorry that you are so sycophantic about Tuscon Bob. "Be Yourself, no matter whet they say".

[joe]

surrender guys...don't give in to the five demons..do your diaries daily...even masters have to be asked...if you are too bogged down follow rebirthing practises...learn kriya yoga..it will get rid of the daily pressures then go away to meditate on the light and sound...it helps...its all about love and utter devotion to god...you need to be in a good space otherwise you pick up a lot of negative energy from everyday life..simran helps clear it so does bathing..rebirhing..pranayama..bathing..chanting..time with fire...fasting...etc

[Miriam Lear]

What does it mean if you are refused initiation in Sant Mat. Does it mean you are just a negative a null a nothing, or some type of walking dead. How can one know god if one is refused initiation?

[Robert M Zack]

I have found that there are many paths to God as in this article about chanting names,
it is really about the frequency of energy invoked the light that is with that energy
and the clear intention set by the practitioner.
12345 works the same if the there is clear intention and purity in the heart.
sound and sacred geometry, the holy science..
chanting are just tools to remind us of our spiritual being. which we already are.

[Pythagoras]

@trolls defending their cult

Dialogue please. I would prefer arguments instead of accusations. The church of the churchless is very fun for putting many theories on the test. It is certainly not a cult, IT IS an anti-cult expression of spiritual freedom. It is about dialectic and synthesis. It is an arena for thinking people. Not for slaves.

Life is short so please open your mind.
Open minds get flexible. Flexible minds can be tamed. Tamed minds can be expanded. Expanded minds may reach "God"

About simran and holy names:
I have seen light and have felt ecstatic before my initiation by using ONE simple name as a mantra.

@Robert
There are many supposed "paths to God". Some are very muddy, others are dead-end. I would prefer a high-speed highway or a airplane!

[jz]

Tao seems to have issues that make this forum unappealling. The attitude displayed toward others speaks for itself. Churchless, fine. Classless, not so much. If this is the result of the seeker I choose ignorance yet decency.

[Brian Hines]

jz, how do you get through life if you are so disturbed by a few people who don't behave exactly as you would like them to?

Amazing.

Do you go for a walk in a beautiful forest, trip on a branch that's fallen across the trail, and then say "I can't stand it! I want to go home! That branch is so unappealing!"

Broaden your vision. Look around. You can choose to be annoyed by whatever aspects of life don't fit your personal standards, or you can
accept that perfection isn't possible (because it doesn't exist) and enjoy life as it is, rather than as how you imagine it could be if it were perfect.

[JZ]

Brian,
Discernment is not annoyance. I try not to broaden my vision to include anger,insults, vulgarity...Glad I could amaze you fairly easily. Cheers.

[tAo]

For Tara

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtX02_FXat0

[Ray Hines]

I just finished read all of the posted comments and all I can say is, hmmm, well, amusing! Thanks for the entertainment. As a seeker I now know why I travel by myself.

[David R]

Tao is an atheist Hare Krishna.

Makes lots of sense.

[DK]

For seekers, please do not consult the internet for truth regarding the sincerity of the path as it is filled with illusion. Everyone has their own path in life, be sure to follow your heart, and not the herd.

Peace be with us all.

[Roger]

Seekers can consult the Internet. There is much information there. The path is a relative one, for the sincere and not. But, but the herd may be a group of honest sincere seekers following their hearts. Peace be with those with open minds.

[radha soami]

radha soami , well i read ur article n i know dat those words r easily avaible wen u google dem n i wrote the same to guruji ... i even got a reply dat those words r useless as bullets widout the gun .... if u dun hav the power which u get durin naam dhaan those words r useless n those words can be posted by sum other radha soami panth which r tryin to manipulate that they r d real radha soami panth so please stop talking rubbish n nonsense abt radha soami panth ... radha soami

[sewadar]

politics and spirituality can not be debated. So don't debate just do meditation and see yourself what is right or wrong

[Brother Shane]

Just read your comments from a few years ago(WOW)We are all struggling souls.Kals just doing his job like we should be doing ours.
Read the Radha soami teachings.sixth edition 2003.Page 206,207.That helped me.

[Roger]

"Kals just doing his job........."

----His job? This job, pay good? I may want to do it. I got bills to pay!!!!!

[r]

that............ was...................... crappppppppppp..................

[lurker133]

I know I'm commenting on an ancient thread, but for the sake of later discoverers like myself, I'd like to state my observations.

It's clear that with a little effort and enough interest you can learn enough Sant Mat theory including "privileged" information on the interwebs to establish your own sect. If you've been on the path you are likely even more convincing! Probably sounds exciting for Pastor Money types, but poses a serious problem for legitimate "seekers of Truth." As it stands I have found dozens of Sant Mat or RadhaSoami lineages online all claiming to be the sole legitimate source.

The good thing, I'm told, is "true" masters teach that nothing is to be taken on blind faith or hearsay. They call it a "science" and everything is to be verified. Kirpal even went as far as to develop that Spiritual Diary thingy - basically a troubleshooting tool to help assess how your lifestyle and state of mind may be adjusted to promote progress in meditation.

One fundamental of Sant Mat is that you are to receive initiation from a legitimate living master (which can be facilitated by an authorised representative) and then you are to use the master's prescribed methods to verify the truth of his claims about spiritual development. As he exists physically the master can be questioned and should guide you practically on meditation issues. Your job is to follow HIS directions consistently and to the letter and then you should see conclusive progress within months, NOT years. Then you can say whether his stuff works or not.

NOW HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART: If you really get nothing in lieu of genuine and consistent effort over a good year (never mind decades) it stands to reason that your "master" is... not what was described in the advert. Well, that's a sensitive topic! I'll drop it there...

[goku]

Google "Sant mat starry sky". And you would get to this post even if my comment is not published.

[Bernard]

All that i have to say is that, for those of you who have made much progress should teach or help me to go into the inner realms and come back at will.
God bless u all, Thanks
bye

[Bernard]

Hi,
please can somebody show me the secrets of bringing the consciousness to the third-eye level at a faster rate

Thanks very much

[JJ]

For a start dump that word 'progress' - it's not a platitude, you are there already you just haven't realised it, appreciated it, come to terms with it. And, there's no 'method' / 'path' that's going to be faster or slower, at the end of the day 'you' can do nothing, its all down to grace pure & simple. Didn't Ramana, Nisargadatta all say the same thing ... so all the rest, the methods, techniques, yogas, just horses for courses, not the other way around.

So if you're attracted to RS/SM then just go with the 5x names ... why not ... repetition has been proved to be as good a method as any for concentrating the mind, stilling the mind. There's nothing spiritual about all that - not at that level, whatever anyone tells you - repetition is simply about focusing the mind, stilling it. And - if in doubt about that read some mantrayama - you'll see that with so much repetition over the ages, these names, whoever gives them to you, have become grooved into consciousness / mind-zones ( that is consciousness being of something, nothing to do with pure awareness / Self) they've become like channels through all the gunk and you can, bit of an analogy here, surf on them through all this gunk.

It is only with a bit of grace then - that's the spiritual part coming through - you might be fortunate enough in this life time to catch a whiff of what is an on-going repetition/groove in consciousness which is so mentally powerful, all-encompassing that you can't shake it. There's nothing whatsoever you can do then but go with it, that image in RS/SM of whirling something or other figures, until spontaneously it stills. Then what's left? There is no 'you' left, whatever it is you realise that is what you are ... it is that 'I am That', Tat twam Asi, moment. Third eye, whatever. No master/guru, no me/no you, just pure witness literally witnessing 5xnames/simran/mantra now falling away back into mindful zones, witnessing what it then is to proceed through Brahmanrandra passage, Sat Lok, be aware of purest shabd (the sat sat, huq huq, phut phut ... like a bee escaping the neck of a bottle) onward as purest witness, to that spontaneous final dissolution, all that C' now dissolving into nothing, then from nothing to pure Self. The emergence of the butterfly! (Chuang Tzu)

We all have the 'experience' every moment of every day of our lives we just don't appreciate it, that's how subtle it is. But, then, there's the really big question ... is realisation, this I-alone-am-knowingness-thing such an easy thing to continue living with? The, if you really knew what it was you were asking for would you ask in the first place? Answer to that, well there are the very few who go public, become the next generation of gurus, but for the many & likely that soul stood right next to you right now in the bus queue they never say a word! I wonder why?

[777]

Hi Bernard
Although Charan said often, there is no short_cut,
what really works is doing pre_meditation as it should be done
sitting very straight the vertebrae as vertical as possible

Most of those who complain meditate in their bed or a super comfortable
chair
I would say ; it's like working out for the muscles
If you can't continue after 50 'push_up's ,
ONLY N° 51 UP TO 60 are enforcing !

So if you worked out up to 50
you didn't make the muscles stronger

For great success I wrote/commented already in :
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2015/08/what-is-seva-in-the-rssb-organization.html

and many others

The same strategy as for muscles applies to cerebral / neuralgic functions
INCLUDING that staying UPRIGHT very well all the time
( after 5 sessions It doesn't hurt anymore
and it's even as if someone does it for you )

Sawan Singh sais in Mushi Ram's books that a sick man can meditate
in bed , but that's for when you 'r / were "IN" already regularly
Such a person can be "IN" while paying the casher in the mall
or playing base ball while being attached absorbed by the Holy Sound Current

About the power of the 5 words :
It is immense,
They give a kind of Excalibur power but moderated ,. . . but only if they were given by a soul who him/her-self is an easy Dweller on high planes of consciousness that is high and pure time_space environments on a scale of the 7 heavens ( read Zohar )
Such a person could have given to you : ""Coca Cola Xerox, Toyota etc"" to repeat
and attach His great power to it and it would work.

These things are universal : for instance in christianity or brazilian tribes a blessing depends on the REAL spiritual level
of the giver

Don't despair
The RSSB Gurus are terrific, flabbergasting and sweet at the same time

Thanks JJ, great comment

777

ps
on your ""please can somebody show me the secrets of bringing the consciousness to the third-eye level at a faster rate""

LOVE does that
With enough Love mostl of what I said is obsolete, . . but it can generate great Love

-

[Dheeraj Vaid]

Hi!

My name is Dheeraj Vaid, I am blessed with initiation 5 years back in 2012. Its my own experience not a single word copied from any book. The reason sometimes we have a feel like that person is speaking from a book's experience because you will find the same experience inside as written by all True Master's. Sorry for any grammatical mistakes as I am not as good in English.

Before initiation I used to do worship as per Hindu religion. Reciting Durga Saptshati in Navratris. Attended Art of Living courses many times. Did Sudarshan Kriya and other meditative programs, techniques. Sometimes followed some yoga classes etc. etc. etc. Totally doing whatever my mind was saying. Doing all of these spiritual activities (not regularly but at huge intervals) but still felt like something missing. In my family my mom was initiated in 1991 or 1992 (don't know the exact year). I used to talk against RSSB. But never knew about there teachings.

Once by chance I came across a book (Parmarthi Patra - II) in our mini book library at home. I started reading it and Lo! it is all what I was finding. All questions seemed like belonging to me. All of my doubts cleared just by reading that... whom to worship...What is Naam! ... the divine sound and light etc.

Then I started listening RSSB sat-sang and all my questions vanished. Doubts getting cleared day by day.

And the day came when I was blessed with Naam-dan / initiation. When I slept at that night after meditation (as taught by Baba Ji) have a vision of all the earlier saints in RSSB. It was a feeling like a film strip running before my eyes. Huge number of faces/ thoughts etc. It might be a dream. Suddenly some sound appeared in my head. Didn't knew what is happening. Where was that sound coming from. It was surely not from the ears. I used to practice meditation before but it never happened earlier to me. Sound appeared by its own. Then I started practicing more on meditation process. Sound became different day by day.

Then even without meditation sound started appearing at night when I go for sleep..sometimes midnight. Guru always tells us Sound is always there. Now I understand. Without Master's grace I am nothing and its his blessing that I am able to hear that divine sound.

One night I was very upset and tense due to some workload and some finance. At that night really feeling like alone and praying Master to give me power to get out of it. Around 2-3 am suddenly I wake and sound was appeared aloud (never before). Felt something rising up my spine like a cold air type thing upto my third eye center. When it stroked there a sound of bell like thing appeared and this process lasted for 15 minutes. Continuous sound of conch like thing and bell sound in between after an interval of 15-20 seconds. (2014)

After that I was able to experience it only 4-5 times till now. I don't know why it stopped. Now I want to experience it more but its not appearing. Master knows...!!

Experience about the Divine Light. Initially it was only sitting like in a dark room when I close my eyes. Started practicing more on repetition and closing eyes with my fingers and ears with thumbs. Following is total journey what I experienced...

1. Darkness only darkness
2. yellow/orange/white strings like thing having some spikes. Like wires with bushes
3. Again darkness for sometime
4. A dot with light appeared from the inner corner of right eye
5. A dot with light appeared from the inner corner of left eye
6. Dots joined together to form a ring like thing
7. Ring is formed of light (yellow+white)
8. Ring is dark from outside and inside... like a big hollow
9. Ring's inner hollow becoming thinner ...thinner ...thinner...
10. Suddenly feeling like in a flight moving very very rapidly forward and forward
11. Some formation of figures ...mixture of lights
12. Feeling like going through a Valley and mountains
13. Then huge number of bigger dots of lights like as size of peanut or more bigger appeared
14. After that total darkness. This darkness was different from initial darkness. Such a stillness in that darkness.
15. Then a tiny star like dot appeared in the middle, pure white in color. Shining very very brightly.

I traveled and experienced the divine light and sound only upto this level. Only Master knows the rest.

Whatever is written and said by Masters all is TRUE...TRUE...TRUE...!!!

Thanks!

[Dheeraj Vaid]

Hi!

My name is Dheeraj Vaid, I am blessed with initiation 5 years back in 2012. Its my own experience not a single word copied from any book. The reason sometimes we have a feel like that person is speaking from a book's experience because you will find the same experience inside as written by all True Master's. Sorry for any grammatical mistakes as I am not as good in English.

Before initiation I used to do worship as per Hindu religion. Reciting Durga Saptshati in Navratris. Attended Art of Living courses many times. Did Sudarshan Kriya and other meditative programs, techniques. Sometimes followed some yoga classes etc. etc. etc. Totally doing whatever my mind was saying. Doing all of these spiritual activities (not regularly but at huge intervals) but still felt like something missing. In my family my mom was initiated in 1991 or 1992 (don't know the exact year). I used to talk against RSSB. But never knew about there teachings.

Once by chance I came across a book (Parmarthi Patra - II) in our mini book library at home. I started reading it and Lo! it is all what I was finding. All questions seemed like belonging to me. All of my doubts cleared just by reading that... whom to worship...What is Naam! ... the divine sound and light etc.

Then I started listening RSSB sat-sang and all my questions vanished. Doubts getting cleared day by day.

And the day came when I was blessed with Naam-dan / initiation. When I slept at that night after meditation (as taught by Baba Ji) have a vision of all the earlier saints in RSSB. It was a feeling like a film strip running before my eyes. Huge number of faces/ thoughts etc. It might be a dream. Suddenly some sound appeared in my head. Didn't knew what is happening. Where was that sound coming from. It was surely not from the ears. I used to practice meditation before but it never happened earlier to me. Sound appeared by its own. Then I started practicing more on meditation process. Sound became different day by day.

Then even without meditation sound started appearing at night when I go for sleep..sometimes midnight. Guru always tells us Sound is always there. Now I understand. Without Master's grace I am nothing and its his blessing that I am able to hear that divine sound.

One night I was very upset and tense due to some workload and some finance. At that night really feeling like alone and praying Master to give me power to get out of it. Around 2-3 am suddenly I wake and sound was appeared aloud (never before). Felt something rising up my spine like a cold air type thing upto my third eye center. When it stroked there a sound of bell like thing appeared and this process lasted for 15 minutes. Continuous sound of conch like thing and bell sound in between after an interval of 15-20 seconds. (2014)

After that I was able to experience it only 4-5 times till now. I don't know why it stopped. Now I want to experience it more but its not appearing. Master knows...!!

Experience about the Divine Light. Initially it was only sitting like in a dark room when I close my eyes. Started practicing more on repetition and closing eyes with my fingers and ears with thumbs. Following is total journey what I experienced...

1. Darkness only darkness
2. yellow/orange/white strings like thing having some spikes. Like wires with bushes
3. Again darkness for sometime
4. A dot with light appeared from the inner corner of right eye
5. A dot with light appeared from the inner corner of left eye
6. Dots joined together to form a ring like thing
7. Ring is formed of light (yellow+white)
8. Ring is dark from outside and inside... like a big hollow
9. Ring's inner hollow becoming thinner ...thinner ...thinner...
10. Suddenly feeling like in a flight moving very very rapidly forward and forward
11. Some formation of figures ...mixture of lights
12. Feeling like going through a Valley and mountains
13. Then huge number of bigger dots of lights like as size of peanut or more bigger appeared
14. After that total darkness. This darkness was different from initial darkness. Such a stillness in that darkness.
15. Then a tiny star like dot appeared in the middle, pure white in color. Shining very very brightly.

I traveled and experienced the divine light and sound only upto this level. Only Master knows the rest.

Whatever is written and said by Masters all is TRUE...TRUE...TRUE...!!!

Thanks!

[Harbey]

https://archive.org/details/hu_20190721_201907

[dust or less thirsty evermore]

Doubt and questioning may well be a stage on any inward oriented path. Pretenders or half baked person are on all paths everywhere. Who is true or not is unfortunately up to all of us to decide. What this fool would like to see is verification stories or non by those with inner experience. Does Simran come automatically and what is that like? Does bell and conch result in magnetic uplift and what is that like? does the big star appear the moon the sun/ are they penetrated/in what sequence with what effect? What is the nature of the penetration? Does the radiant form appear? Does it talk? Do you unite with it? How do the experiences and contacts change your day to day conciousness? Are you more compassionate, loving, peaceful, blissful, self sacrificing or detached, spacy? Do you feel the pain of humanity? What signs mentioned in the Sant mat literature appear like morning sun, Higher moon, sunn, mahasunn appear like? is there a cross pollination? do you find the masters, saints, sages of other religions? have you encountered malevolence? Did simran protect you from it etc. etc.? What have you discovered about the Self? what of the Dual and nondual, thr personal and inpersonal, the form and formless/ what of knowing without thought, seeking without the ego? The inner maps should be collectively drawn and verified. What really helped? Who and how has disappointment and doubt been overcome or verified? has your consciousness been enhanced or diminished in Satsang? have you been taken advantage of, how?

[Sonia]

Dust or less thirsty evermore, (you couldn’t come up with a shorter name?)

I tried to answer what could below but there is a lot I don’t want to put her. Honestly, you can email me at [email protected]. I don’t want to write anymore here.

Doubt and questioning may well be a stage on any inward oriented path. Pretenders or half baked person are on all paths everywhere.

{{sweet... only a tad condescending}}

Who is true or not is unfortunately up to all of us to decide. What this fool

{{don’t be so hard on yourself lol}}

would like to see is verification stories or non by those with inner experience.

{{Many of the masters describe their inner experiences. I think one of the main reasons they tell people not to share inner experiences is because disbelief from another about the stories of your inner experiences can sort of “collapse your reality” which can rob you of their value and power. ALSO, my inner experiences are very different because of past life inner experiences. You may think that shouldn’t change things but I would have to agree to disagree}}

Does Simran come automatically and what is that like? {{I could say the 5 names all day long and still be thinking of other things the whole time. For me, I now find it more powerful to focus on: “Thy will be done” (Thy being the ultimate higher power)}}

Does bell and conch result in magnetic uplift and what is that like? {{Right after I was initiated I was pulled up but didn’t like it and fought it immediately. Something in me didn’t want to travel the inner regions. I have steuggled with that in many ways which I can discuss in email. As far as hearing the different sounds go—I’ve only heard one type of sound. Started one day... all of the sudden I heard “music” that no one else could hear—it’s almost impossible to describe. It was so loud but not unpleasantly loud. It sounded like billions of ringing golden glitter—I know that sounds crazy—but I can find the words to describe it. Then within an hour of that experience I was told about the inner path and I found my way to RSSB.}}

does the big star appear the moon the sun/ are they penetrated/in what sequence with what effect?

{{the star appears almost immediately after I sit (when I sat as a satsangi)}} What is the nature of the penetration?

{{it sort of comes towards and through me}}

Does the radiant form appear? {{Not for me}} Does it talk? {{one form has, but not in audible words... so I guess yes}} Do you unite with it? {{no}}

How do the experiences and contacts change your day to day conciousness? Are you more compassionate, loving, peaceful, blissful, self sacrificing or detached, spacey? {{when I do my current practice I am much more connected to those around me and very happy}}

{{RS Meditation helped me manage time a lot better... That’s all I can say. I have no natural sense of time whatsoever so sitting helped with that}}

Do you feel the pain of humanity? {{Yes, always—but I’ve learned how to turn it off (like a surgeon would in order to operate). I can help humanity most by “turning off the pain” and focusing on a solution. And I can help all of humanity best by focusing on my interactions with those directly in front of me and helping those close to me or in my community}}

What signs mentioned in the Sant mat literature appear like morning sun, Higher moon, sunn, mahasunn appear like? is there a cross pollination? do you find the masters, saints, sages of other religions? have you encountered malevolence? {{I arrived at a place in space and was sort of alone. I had to wait for a large, colorful, green, red and purple God/Goddess to finish a conversation with this black and white tall thin being. They were having a conversation about me which I couldn’t hear. After that the black and white figure came and sat behind. I knew he was negative/dangerous but it was like he was a prisoner and he wasn’t allowed to hurt me. Somehow I knew this. Then he guided me to follow him into this place and I did. It was like a giant library without all the books. He stopped at the entrance and said, “you may go in here but first you have to look into my eyes”

Did simran protect you from it etc. etc.? {{Nope.}}

What have you discovered about the Self? {{I discovered that there really isn’t a “self”. The self isn’t real}}

what of the Dual and nondual, thr personal and inpersonal, the form and formless/ what of knowing without thought, {{it just happens, that cannot be explained}} seeking without the ego? {{

The inner maps should be collectively drawn and verified. What really helped? Who and how has disappointment and doubt been overcome or verified? has your consciousness been enhanced or diminished in Satsang? {{both}} have you been taken advantage of, how?

{{taken advantage of? By entities?? I don’t understand the question but if you mean spirituality then all I can say is sometimes other beings seek the light you have... and then it gets weird}}

Posted by: dust or less thirsty evermore | December 19, 2019 at 10:08 AM

[Sonia]

If Gurinder really does want to help me, he should go talk to that green and red and purple entity and find out what was said in that conversation.

Sorry, if this all confuses you... I’m couldn’t share everything chronologically because I couldn’t according the the way you asked the questions.

[Sonia]

Although, I’m pretty sure that entity is off the RS map... and I was alone. But that doesn’t change things... I still can’t go back and I won’t.

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Although, I’m pretty sure that entity is off the RS map... and I was alone. But that doesn’t change things... I still can’t go back and I won’t.

Posted by: Sonia | December 19, 2019 at 01:08 PM

Sonia you do realize you are making no sense?? Either relate
The whole story or don’t at all

By the way, I’m your friend Jen. The one who sent you the email when you were In hkg

[Sonia]

Hi Jen,

Yes, I remember. I did see Babaji/Gurinder in HK and ended up leaving the same time he did. And then the riots stated. 😂

Are you ‘dust or less thirsty evermore’?

I suddenly got really sleepy this afternoon and woke up with the answer I had... so somebody was listening. I now know what the conversation between those two entities was about. Phenomenal it’s taken years to find that out. And it pretty much answers all of my questions about RS Sant Mat. So, I have no more questions and nothing to teach really...

[Sonia]

Sonia you do realize you are making no sense?? Either relate
The whole story or don’t at all

By the way, I’m your friend Jen. The one who sent you the email when you were In hkg

Posted by: Jen from Austin Texas | December 19, 2019 at 03:36 PM

Jen, it would only make sense to a mystic. 😉

That was my point in writing it the way that I did.

[Avenger]

Eat pizza and sleep

[Sonia]

My favorite ACIM book is by Pam Grout, ‘The Course in Miracles Experiment’. I like her because she’s the exact opposite of Marianne Williamson. She takes all the unicorns and rainbows out of it and just makes it practical. Fairly irreverent, she refers to God as the Dude because she doesn’t like the word God. The book touches a lot on how words effect is and resonate with us based on a number of things like our upbringing, experiences, culture, etc.

I honestly have no idea why it was ever titled As Course in Miracles’. People get the wrong impression by the word Miracles because it’s not about magic. It’s just simply about how changing your outlook can dramatically change your life. Duh.

Anyway, I’m practicing Surat Shabd yoga as well these days. And the names are difficult for me because they feel so foreign. I have to say them really slowly. I’ve never particularly liked any kind of mantra at all because I feel like it makes my mind start to race. Personally, I’d rather sit and not think or repeat anything in my mind but I’m not sure that’s “allowed”. 🤷‍♀️

🍕 😴

[Sonia]

It’s sadly phenomenal how words and language divide us simply because OUR words hold a meaning that we too often don’t recognize in other people’s words.

You really have to examine what you and others are saying, what meaning each person’s words hold for them and ask yourself, “could it be that we’re not that different—we just might be saying the same thing but saying it differently.”

We’re more often than not a lot more similar to others than we’d like to believe. Perhaps that’s the biggest barrier to unity—our ego’s desire to be different. In short, tribalism in every form it takes is our ego’s way of trying to exert its superiority.

[Harry]

What utter nonsense is written here by so called RS disciples.

God was never found in institutes with millions of people. Look at history and name a true Saint who had above, let's say 10 to 40 disciples.

The secret mantra is a joke. If God is truth and his name prevails, then why hide 5 words.... Lol... We should be passing onto to everyone the names that bring peace, not hiding them for selfish motives.

The blind are leading the blind, washed up with theories written in books and actually not experienced one thing. All these so called RS that come on here and give it the large, are actually big losers who have gained nothing, but want to boast their ego here...!

No guru in the past has dabbled in millions of pounds, a guru is suppose to have close relations with his disciples, not increase to millions and create institutes...!

Brian hines saw that the whole thing has become a political mess, and left with a broken heart, but learnt a lot in the process. The path may have started off in the right direction, but after the first 2 masters, you can see divergence and political mess.
Look what happened after sawan Singh, who know who he actually gave the power to?

[Gurinder]

its all a money making scam!!
Very misleading, good job of guiding people for meditating but the direction is absolutely wrong. The word 'fire' is not hot and the word 'water' is not wet. Whether its the 5 words or one word they all do the same thing, you just need to resonate with the word and feeling. You can say jehovah, allah, waheguru, satnaam. You just need to say one word continuously in your subconscious mind and you will reap joyous benefits of meditation. No group or sect or cult has any monopoly to any words that are charged, this is all fundamentally wrong.
We all have the same ability and connection to the true source, the infinite lord. Its all a cash grab!!. You alone are the perfect living master, you dont need anyone, the secret is kung fu panda- the secret is you, the reflection.
You just need to know what to do and how to do it. You dont need to follow any living person, you just need to know the technique! and yes you can learn it for free!! :-)
There is no such thing as perfect living master.
If you take birth you are not perfect in the first place, otherwise you would have remained in sach kand!!!
safe travels!!